 Hello and welcome. Rarely do I have an opportunity to have such a wonderful, inspirational group to chat with. Sadguru, a man who's taken India by storm with your brilliance, you are diversity personified. You are talking about your pluralism, has no religion, has never prayed to God in his life. Not to anybody else. Malvika, an absolute inspiration for all of us. God bless you. And I hope that you will put these gentlemen in their place during the course of the next one hour. Shashi Tharoor, perhaps the most articulate, not only politician, person that I've ever heard, ranging from all kinds of topics and we shall test you today on pluralism and diversity. And you better be as good as you are on the British. And Deatric, you know Melina Deatric, that's his sister. You'll be so lucky. He's a professor and has studied India for just, South Asia, for just 40 years. So he knows more than all of us put together and certainly less biased than all of us. Can I start with you, Sadguru? You've just been travelling around India, I mean, one month on the road. Tell us your experience about the pluralism in this short period of India, that you've been around India, what have you learnt? I must come to everyone. When we say plural, generally people are understanding this as maybe three communities or five communities living together. But that's not the nature of India's pluralism. Because within the family of five, they have five different gods and goddesses going. So our pluralism is very individualism in many ways. Because this culture has always encouraged seeking. Seeking cannot be enmesse. Seeking is always individual. You cannot make a crowd seek something. You can make a crowd pray. You can make a crowd do something else, but you cannot make a crowd seek something. Seeking is always individual. This being the fundamentally thoughts of this culture, we must understand this, that these are more recent happenings probably in competition with everybody else in the world. Otherwise, this is a land which has always been a land of seeking. The highest values in this land have always been truth and liberation. Just in the previous generations, if you've heard my grandmother talking, there's not some spiritual discourse. I'm saying daily conversation. Without using the word karma, mukti, prarabdha, moksha, without this no conversation ever happened. So it was so much a part of our way of living that holding not god as the highest value, but mukti or moksha or liberation as the highest value. Any god. Any god you have... No, we know the technology of god-making, but there's never been a god in this country. All the people that we worship are people who walk this geography at some point of time. They went through the trials and tribulations that all of us went through. In fact, probably they faced much more drama than what's happening in most of our lives. And we are not bowing down to them for... because they were, you know, superhuman or something. They were human, but not trampled by life that is here. And today, you know, many people say such in Chandulkar is a cricketing god. That's very much in line with our culture because here, when we said that Deva, we meant someone who has excelled beyond certain limits. They have excelled in such a way that most people think they're above humanity. Right, but I think a quote of yours which describes India as a kaleidoscope of chaos, right? See, when we say chaos, the choice is like this. You can have a society which is like a manicured garden and you need a gardener to take care of it every day, to trim you into place every day. Or you can have a society which is like a forest, which will anyway last for a million years without anybody's care or concern. So we are like that. We are a jungle. Right. And no tending is needed. Nobody needs to manage us. We somehow go on. Rishashi Tharur, in this forest of diversity that India is, I prefer the word diversity to pluralism because I find it difficult to get my word right. Turn around that. It is, as he says, it is India. And is our idea of India, is there anything worrying you these days? Not that the British have left. I think, in fact, I think Sadhguru's metaphor is a perfect one because the problem we seem to have these days is that there are some people who are coming into our jungle and trying to turn it into a manicured garden, into a garden of their design and of a particular shape which admits no other shapes. Which is where I think the pluralism debate starts. It is about the various ways in which people define themselves. Religion is very much part of them. But identity in our country takes multiple forms. We have regional identities which also require pluralism. We have caste identities which must coexist with each other. We do have religious identities and religious differences. And there are some who seem to say that people of certain religions have more rights in this country than those of other religions. We have also diversities when it comes to things like what Malvika is going to be talking to us about. Disabled people and their rights and are we ready to accommodate them in the same way? Give them the same place in the sun the rest of us take for granted. So all of these diversities are part of Indian pluralism. I wrote in India from midnight to millennium more than 20 years ago that the singular thing about India is that you can only speak of it in the plural. And there is not just one India. There are many Indias. Jaisa Sadguru said multiple ways of experiencing India, of the reality of India, of the history of India. This is one of the most beautiful aspects of India is its diversity, its multiculturalism and everybody living together. But you still, Malvika, I don't want this to be purely just about religion because there are so many aspects to diversity and inclusiveness. Diversity is a fact. There will always remain diverse, but will there be inclusiveness? Will everybody be inclusive in an equal space? And you find some challenges there that India has to learn a lot in that space? I think the most critical barrier that each one of us face is the barrier of attitude, the discriminatory attitude. And it is not just people with disability. Everyone faces societal attitude and people with disability especially have a double disadvantage because more than their own functional limitation, the barrier of societal attitude is more of a hindrance to them. And I can vouch for this and I share my personal story here with all of you 15 years back when I survived a bomb blast and I was in the hospital bed, I was lying in the hospital bed and the first time I was inside the general ward I heard a bunch of women whispering, did you see that new girl who just came in the ward? What a shame, her life must have been cursed to deserve such a fate. Who is ever going to marry her now? I heard those words and I cried my eyes out. Before that the pain, you didn't cry, did that happen? I didn't cry when I saw my hands covered in blood, my amputated hands covered in blood. I didn't cry when they were drilling iron rods in my hands. I never cried, I was battling for my dear life, I did not cry. But when they said that I am a dependent girl and I am cursed and no one is going to marry me. So these were the things that absolutely shattered me and I cried. Well I would like those ladies to hear you now and we are so proud of you, God bless you I think. Thank you. It's amazing, you are an inspiration to all of us. But you still find that attitude needs changing. And also mental health, I think that is something each one of us here undergoes at varying degree of intensity. It's some serious and some even low. For example there are so many mental disorders. I think politicians have a lot of mental health problems. And there is so much stigma attached to it. We know Deepika Patukone has done a lot of good work in that area. She was talking here today about that and how much people, they refrain from going for treatment just because they will be judged or they will be thought by the society that they are not fit. So these kind of stigma, I think this is something that is a very important topic in India as well. And people with any kind of societal stigma that comes attached it hinders with their day to day life. Sometimes when I was conducting my PhD research I even understood that people wanted to move. They wanted to move places, move their workplaces, move from their society because they could not take the stigma that was present in their society. So they could not even live comfortably in their own homes. So that's another aspect of attitudes can be and against religion can be against different sectors of society. Cast as you mentioned, you're used to manicured gardens, right? Not really. Not really, thank goodness. This build a wall. We have a saying where the mind is without fear. Let us not be broken up into narrow fragments by domesticated walls. Broken into fragments by narrow domesticated walls, yes. Is that happening around the world now? I mean, Germany has been seen a transformation. You took in a million refugees. The leader who took them in won the election, but the right wing also did well. So are we seeing a slight global phenomenon, a backlash, a kind of... Do you see a commonality? Obviously there are certain features which we share around the world. There is this explanation now that through globalization where barriers are breaking down, where there is a difference in the job market and the way employment works, a certain number of people is feeling left out of this development. It's easy to blame somebody else. Yes, and we can see this not only in the east, also in the west, not only in the so-called global north, but also in the global south, and people try to defend themselves and revive their identities in face of the open borders, mobilizing their cultural and religious and other identities. In a way, I just wanted to add this one term. Sometimes one could even call this movement around the world it's almost like an insurgency of the people who have been left out in this process of globalization and politicians have not been able to address them. One of the aspects I've read about people who come from Europe and from America is that they're worried they're coming to India. There's a Pakistanization of India. What do they mean by that? I'm not sure exactly what they mean by that, but what I can definitely see is that there is a growing emphasis on aspects of mutual exclusiveness and mutual exclusion. Whereas this is a very short-sighted approach because if we are talking about globalization, where borders are breaking down, we actually have to turn this, what some perceive as a challenge, this plurality into an asset, where the physical borders are not really that meaningful and at least they cannot protect us from the challenges in what we're living with. Sir, in this chaos and anarchy and beauty and diversity of India, are we a bit worried that we're building these walls and how do we stop them from being built? It is not the reality of India. I know it's definitely become a discourse in a segment of the society but when you go down to the villages, when you go down to just ordinary people, this doesn't exist at all. I hear people shouting over each other in the television rooms, you know, saying so many things, which is absolutely no meaning. Not on NDTV. Sorry, had to give a quick run. At NDTV. Yesterday Vikram was holding a debate and somebody was trying to speak over somebody. He said, please, wrong channel. Right, exactly. I get that. But you're saying that's not a reality on the ground? That's not the reality on the ground, not at all. It's just that, see, we are a nation with 1.3 billion people packed into four percent of the world's geography. We are nearly twenty percent of the population. So here and there we step on each of those toes. If I step on your toe, you don't have to be a Muslim to hit me. All right? Because everything is scarce. From everything, roads are scarce, toilets are scarce, everything is scarce. So we keep stepping on each of those toes and here and there friction happens. But we must also understand, we are a largely unpoliced country. We are an unpoliced nation. There's really no police. There's no punishment. That's not the point. There is no law enforcement to stop something happening. Only after it happens, the police will come. You've even seen in the movies, only after everything is done, that's when they come. All right? Because for the population that we have, we don't have that much of law enforcement. So in United States, if something happens, if you give a ring and they say, the downtime is three minutes and twenty seconds, fully armed police will be there at that time in most places. But if you call here, it's only for the wrap-up. So we are not a police state. For that, I think we are an extremely peaceful country, unpoliced. But everything is scarce. There's enormous poverty, deprivation. So here and there's commissions happen that not necessarily because of differences of religion, caste or creed, for economic reasons. There will be rubs here and there. Right. Malvika, people who are disabled, religion goes into the background, right? There's much more, they've got many more challenges. There's a lot of lessons to be learned from how you fight because people with all the advantages just target each other for unnecessary reasons. So give us some lessons that you learn for the rest of us that how do we fight against building walls, building walls against disability, building walls against mental health people, building walls against religion, minorities. How do we break down these walls? Because India is not a country with walls. I think once the Maya of societal attitude is removed, I think each of us, and I'm speaking from the disabled community, each of us will be more aware of what we deserve in our society. And I am a product of inclusion. And I'm very proud to say that even though I had my bad moments, I was excluded, but today I can very proudly say that I'm a product of inclusion. And India, the number of things that have made me feel this way, that made me feel included, I think first and foremost, education. Education is indispensable for change. I believe that sharing of success stories, sharing of role models, positive role models, including... But you're saying in education so important and you're quite right, but in education, people should be taught inclusion, right? Yeah, inclusion. Talk about Deepika earlier today. She was mentioning that how in schools we should be a more well-rounded way of education. We should not just target on, you know, math and science. We should also have, you know, teach children about life skills, about mental health. And I am here advocating for including disability studies in schools and colleges because disability studies is what makes us understand that it is not an individual deficit per se, but disabilities are byproduct of the society and its environment and, you know, the ideology. So we need to include disability studies and I also seek private internships and all the private organizations and government and businesses that if we work towards inclusive hiring, if we work towards standardization of technology so that in one office you have one particular way of working but you don't have the same in other companies. So I think all of this greatly helps. It has helped me in being included in the society with my stories shared in the media in a positive way. It has helped me. It may have helped the readers but it has helped me further. No, and your fight, I think, has helped a lot of other people who look to you and say, you know, she's done it and we can be included and we can fight. We can. Which is a... Yes. But just... Rather than just as a lovely concept and beautiful to have included, is it important for a country to move ahead or do countries do as well whether they've got walls built between different communities or is it an important part of progress? No, it's extremely important. In fact, if you build a wall, somebody will build a tunnel. If you build a wall, somebody will build a tunnel or they'll find a way of breaking your wall. That's human nature. But more important than that, I think, is that for a society to function, all the parts of it have to feel relevant. They have to feel they have a stick. If you have people who've been left out for one reason or the other, whether it's disability, whether it's caste, whether it's because of their religion or faith or the color of their skin, depending on the society you're talking about. Well, it happens in India. Absolutely. When people... Fair and lovely. They've left out no stick. Fair and lovely ads are banned on NDTV. Good thing. We lose a lot of money as a result, but we will not accept that kind of racism on our channel. Yeah, it looks like I'm the only one who didn't use it. Sorry. Sorry. It looks like I'm the only one who didn't use it. Well, look, I mean, the point is that all of these things, all of these kinds of discrimination, essentially put people in a position where they feel they don't belong. They don't have a stake in the future and success of the society because they won't share it. And that's what's wrong, because the practical purpose of pluralism is to let everyone feel involved, everyone to be a stakeholder in your society, and everyone to feel they're invested in the future of that society. The moment you marginalize, alienate, push people aside, two things happen. One, you lose people who can actually build up your future. But second, you also potentially breed a viper in your bosom. There is no question that it's often the alienated individuals in a society, the disaffected, the ones who feel left out, who are the ones who'll turn against it, or at least give aid and succor to those who want to come and harm the society. So in every respect, it's in the interest of any society to be as inclusive, as accommodative as pluralism requires. Yeah, it's very... a major university in America, in California, that's doing a simulation study about building walls, India, walls that are built, and their simulation with artificial intelligence predicts a civil war in India in the next five to ten years. Now, that could be all wrong, robots, and they don't understand India. But the importance, I think, what Chashi Thirur is saying, is that it's important for progress. Take, for example, any survey around the world, what do people really... what do people know about India? Two things. Atma Gandhi and the Taj Mahal. Taj Mahal is a huge attraction for people from around the world to come, and now it's not in our tourist handbooks anymore. It's been excluded. Now, why... those sort of examples, do you find inclusion and not building walls crucial for India? Taj Mahal is not in the tourism... the UP government is issued a tourist handbook that doesn't mention the Taj Mahal because, as you know, their chief minister last month or two months ago made a statement saying, Taj Mahal is not Indian culture. They have a particularly bigoted and narrow-minded view of what is India... Now, he's becoming political. I just want to rescue us all from that. No, it is... it doesn't matter who built it, whether you like the people who built it or not. If somebody builds something beautiful we must have an unprojudiced eye to appreciate it. When Malvika repeatedly said the disabled community I want you to know most of the society is disabled in their own ways. It's not because you lost a hand or leg, you become disabled. People are disabled. They tend to disable themselves in so many ways. So, definitely Taj Mahal is you know, a beautiful gem in anybody's eye. You cannot exclude that from India. At the same time, I also don't believe that you must say, this is the only thing in India. If you come to India, Taj Mahal is the only place to see is a very narrow way of doing things. I think that's what has been done for a long time and it's time to change that by projecting everything else. Generally, you can't remove a beautiful gem. There are so many other beautiful things, we shouldn't look at who built them just that they are beautiful right now. Especially if somebody whom you don't like built something beautiful for you you must enjoy it even more. I worry a bit about you saying people you don't like. No, I'm saying if you don't like somebody and they built something beautiful for you they're a double joy. But when you don't say somebody you don't like, you're not talking about a community. No, I'm not saying I'm saying if I did not know that Taj Mahal is pulled out of the tourism thing I really did not know that. I'm saying the only reason why you may do such a thing is because you don't like someone who built it because there is a history of innovation there is cruelty, there is there are terrible truths of the past. Sasi has been I'm here to read the book, I have the book but I've heard him speak here and there about all the things that have been done during the British era, which is very cruel. But if we go to UK now we don't hate those people. Yes, they have done this to us we should never forget it. We should never forget it. This has been done to us because this should not be done to us once again. But it does not mean today's generation of English people we have to hate them. That's not it. That same goes for Islamic invasions. They've done terrible things to us but we don't have to forget it we should not forget it. Also they stayed and became us they stayed and became us there were some invaders who came and looted and left but for many of the people such as the Muslim hell, they are us they are part of our soil and assimilated into our culture. Say I want you to know if there was no World War II British also would have stayed so that doesn't mean that happened because of their love for you. No but Sadhguru they sent everything from here back to England whereas these people even whatever they looted they spent here. There is a difference. That is because it's another time when there were no ships technical problems they were ships. Transportation issues and besides they had a land route back home to the Fenghanna valley that's not easy to go on. But you say whether they did or not one should not hate them now and should not build walls around them now is that your message? See what I am saying is historically many ugly things have been done by different people. Ugly things that have happened to us as a nation we must remember. Ugly things we've done to ourselves also. That also is that, that's another aspect. What others have done to us we must remember but we should not become bitter because this bitterness will destroy us. That's why we should remember is so that we don't make the same mistakes and get into the same pit once again. That's very important for me. But at the same time if today let's say UK spoke the same language that it spoke during the colonial era definitely we will not accept them. Unfortunately with certain groups of people they are trying to speak the same language which was historically spoken way back. So this creates a whole lot of confrontation in the society. And this this entire misuse of this for democratic purposes when I said democratic purposes it was all a number game. So people are playing this game for last 70 years. So naturally you have kind of brought this little bit of fear in others. Fear means people are saying what's happening in Iraq and the Islamic state and stuff what happened in Kashmir. So people think if these numbers increase this will happen to us also because it's happened in the past. So I feel if one thing stops I think this entire problem between communities will die that is you don't try to change the dynamics of demographics just let it stay this for next hundred years without anybody trying to increase numbers you will see everything will level out this is the only fear that's why there is reaction. What religion are you? What religion are you? I never identified myself with any religion as such because we must understand this religion is a very foreign thing to India because when you say if you have to belong to a certain religion you have to believe something but this has always been a land of secrets we never ever believed anything it doesn't matter even when the so called divine entities came when Shiva came his wife asked a million questions the Shiva Sutra is full of questioning and if Krishna comes this man his disciple supposed to be asked a thousand questions whoever came no entity, however divine they were considered to be could give us a commandment only debate he got because there was no such idea as the God in our minds ever so there is no belief system so how can you say there is a religion so it's great that you're not a God man and you don't have a religion I think that's a huge God bless you actually for that I I was very serious I'm going to ask you a slightly sensitive question Germany is wonderful today but it has gone through its period where it built walls and you had 6-7 million Jewish people and you built terrible walls and did terrible things to them what lessons can the rest of the world of course we have 180 million Muslims we don't have 6 million but what are the lessons one can learn because Germany has struggled with itself and come out of it in a wonderful way what lessons are that diversity is fine that you can learn from your history well I think the two situations are not necessarily comparable because after all there was a genocide and there is no way of making it look better and one way definitely Germany went through is to keep confronting the truth which is uncomfortable and difficult and even one, two, three generations afterwards not easy at all but it is something that has to be continued I don't see it's a matter of mobilization it's a matter of communication but I think as Malvika was saying it's also changing people's attitudes and that's not easy and it is changing people's attitude although it does not prevent people from trying to catch back to old ideas what they think they could mobilize for totally different purposes of today's world where we see a movement of migrants as a professor this is a television channel you have to dumb down to my level what do you mean by what you just said okay the right wing in your country just did very well the best it's ever done is that a worry? that is one thing that people working for the right wing as politicians I mean they have again at one point or the other quoted slogans used language by the director and direct reference to the third right to the language of the Nazis but Germany is not the only country where we have seen those references and this is not necessarily exactly the same type of diversity and confrontation as we see in other parts like in South Asia between Muslims and Hindus or other parts of religions where a lot of issues are expressed in religious terms today political and ideological and which have a deeper rooting in as our friend mentioned in social issues in terms of marginalization where people are left out and where therefore they are rebelling and yet still it's not the same issue I mean a Dalit woman in the province does not has a much bigger carriage to carry, baggage to carry than a Muslim man let's say in Delhi so even there you have to have other levels of inclusiveness We are all now getting back into the political and the religious which has a lot of hatred in it and that's what is being combated on that front on the front that you are fighting which is marginalization of disabled people it's more insidious it's not hatred, it's not obvious cutting out people with mental health problems with physical disabilities just alienating them from society it's and it's a tougher thing to fight because here it's so obvious how do you combat that because it's as destructive for India as a social activist I would want to say that I want to keep repeating inclusion, inclusion like everyone here is saying inclusion is not a rule that should be accepted I think it is something that should be celebrated inclusion no matter who you are where you are from or how you look whether you have any body parts whether you don't have any body parts no matter what you should be included I have to say it that Bollywood doesn't help you at all I am actually waiting for Karan and Alia if we are here sooner then I can talk about a very important point that I want to highlight that Bollywood they do not portray people with disability in the way that they should be, they are portrayed as they are objects of charity or they are so dependent or they are made fun of, mockery is something not just Bollywood, everywhere you see people with disability are made fun of and their disability is at laugh that by everyone but that's not nice for people with disability and that affects so many other people's attitudes I laugh at it, my family my mother especially she taught me to laugh at my problems she taught me to laugh at everything that happened but not everyone can take it as lightly as it is and I think films especially must portray people with disability in a very positive way because movie media is the only platform that the current generation and everyone in fact they see people on TV, they read about them they know that oh this person how do people come to know about me they read about me and then they see that oh this person has not given up so she gives us hope so I think if everyone's story is highlighted like that, if every person's story if every disabled person's story is a unique story unique of each one of them is one of a kind so if everyone's story is highlighted in the positive way that they deserve to be I think it's important, they are not disabled people, they are people who are disabled first you are a person like everybody else or a person who's Muslim or differently abled I think it's now okay to say disabled but a person who's disabled not a disabled person because a person comes first I would like to add the word here a lot of magazines and media channels they use the word wheelchair bound it is so restrictive wheelchair bound it's like kind of restricting you to a wheelchair but actually wheelchair helps a person to be free, to be liberated when I speak to people who are on wheelchair when they are on a wheelchair well one good thing that television is done it's made, I mean most anchors have got serious mental health problems and I think this is not a confessional I actually think it's an accusation but you won't go there, it's a total confession and I do want to come out in the open and say yes there's a lot of mental problems here but getting serious as you never are there are similarities between exclusion and marginalization of people who are disabled but there's also a very different kind of hatred that's exploited by wonderful politicians as well well I hope I'm exempt because I'm very much passionately a believer in inclusivity I'm also exempt from the health problem I don't like to demonize anybody especially for things they can't help I mean demonizing somebody for the faith in which they were born or the community in which they live or the way they look or the color of their skin or the language they brought up to speak or the clothes they wear or the food they eat what about the Sadguru says just a fear, it's a fear so I was intrigued to hear Sadguru say that because obviously some of the fear is stoked up as you yourself said partly for political purposes unfortunately there is often a politics of polarization that assumes that whipping up certain sentiments will gather certain votes on a particular community there is a politics of identity that says let's promote the interests of our caste alone or our group alone or our faith alone at the expense of others so I'm certainly not expecting and accepting the political process whatsoever from this but at the same time it is not right it seems to me to suggest that this is somehow natural it is actually, no baby is born intolerant somebody is teaching that baby its attitude that believes whom to like whom to dislike I think in our politics we are allowing some of our leaders to tell us whom to dislike and why for reasons that in fact in fact are not part of our baby lives you rightly said in the villages of India people live side by side and they don't feel any of this hatred and unpleasantness Is that a correct interpretation of what you meant? No because not, it's not See I don't wish to take a political stance because I've never associated myself with any political ideology at any time not today so what I see is what we are today in many ways we are products of history we cannot completely eliminate it the British history that you have extensively spoken about, written about the thing about the British is they exploited you commercially for them you are just a resource they had no other interest in you they don't care which God you worship whether you go to a temple or you don't go to a temple Is it okay that they eat beef? Huh? I'm sorry Is it okay that they eat beef? See if they have a wrong choice of food it's up to you what's my problem? So anybody can eat beef is their choice Is that what you're saying? Of course No, what I'm saying is that goes against what other people feel I'll come to that later, this aspect but when it comes to these religious invasions that happened whatever the thought behind that that thought you must surrender you see if I do something horrible to you today 10 days later if we meet at least I must show some regret or remorse in what I have done when I'm proud of what I have done to you this is not going to settle all right? This is what you are expecting when people are very proud of what they have done to you in the past now you want it to settle it's not going to settle it is just I'm saying it will just be an academic debate it is not going to be a social reality I'm not interested in any debate unless it's a solution for the problems that we are in So what's the solution? The solution is the important thing is you can do whatever you want but you have no business to tell me what I should do all right and vice versa everywhere I'm saying I'm saying for anybody yes yes essentially this is this because people believe certain things because everything that you have to ever know in the universe is written in one book people are insecure about that because we know what's written the question is not whether everybody is like that or not we are just afraid one day book will play up on us so one thing that you have to do is first thing whatever the past cruelties that have been done many things it's not a simple process see people have forgotten what has happened in this deli what has happened in one afternoon one afternoon 20,000 people were killed in one of these days you know three centuries ago people have not forgotten these things because they know what will happen to them and what has happened in Kashmir people have not forgotten maybe people try to act like it didn't happen but it has happened so if the demographics don't change you will see everything will settle down the thing is continuously people in a very strategic way trying to change the demographic dynamic now people are afraid because they know if the numbers increase what will happen to them so just don't do that one thing that will believe me I know the community is very well At least you are positive and optimistic about it but you do bring a lot of history into what people fear today that is a bit worrying there is a Buddhist tale about two Buddhist monks walking down the road and they come to a part which is very a lot of mud and water and there is no lady there and one of the monks takes her on takes her on his back and takes her across and while he is taking her across she kicks him and beats him and says you are hurting me don't go this way curses him and shouts at him finally goes around puts the other side and puts her down and both the monks walk on and after two hours one monk says to the older one that lady was so horrible you just let her go why didn't you say something and he says you are still carrying that lady I put her down two hours ago shouldn't you put down your history that's what I said I think that story is totally not relevant to me no no not relevant to the situation because the situation is not about what happened the situation is no sense of remorse or regret about what happened you want the lady to regret not the lady that's a totally different I think I have a better way of telling that story you have a better way of telling more stories that's not the point that is a spiritually significant story that's a different matter this is a reality which we are living in where people who firmly believe their way is the only way to go to heaven first of all I am not interested in your heaven so leave me alone but you keep on trying to change the demographics there will be fear if you think that is an empty fear then you have to see what's happened what is happening even now in certain parts of the world you must see it is not an empty fear so I am saying whatever you believe first of all let me finish this I feel the moment you believe something because belief essentially for me means you are not straight enough to admit you do not know as far as I am concerned either I know something or I don't know something that's all there is everything that you don't know you believe and you want me to believe the same thing no so this culture has never imposed anything on anybody because nobody believes anything we are seekers seeker means what you can be a genuine seeker only when you realize you do not know so this is of a certain nature now in reaction unfortunately we also tending to become like that which is a very sad thing but at the same time a society is not made by till now at least maybe in future it might society is not made by spiritual wisdom unfortunately it is made on the streets how people react, how they fight how they defend themselves how they cannot preserve this is how societies are made still it's a crude way of doing things but that is how it's made and that's how it is till now but didn't you just say earlier that you've traveled around India recently and throughout your life even as a young man when you're on a motorbike people live with each other in complete peace and harmony and without fear without thinking of the history even now it is true and Shashi says even now it is true except those communities which are kind of little ghettoed except in those places everywhere else even now it is true in this India just now 30 days I've driven across the country even now it is true every kind of people, every kind of community community leaders came to me and spoke to me and I spoke to them all this happens I'm saying one thing is a whole lot of people particularly I'm sorry exploit the differences, all right I think you agree on that I think I agree with the Sadhguru when I say political class I don't mean to say every political person is doing it after all politics is a dirty job that somebody is doing for us because we are not willing to do it that's right, so someone like you who has such a major role in society as a Sadhguru should you and others like you not take on the role of educating people to overcome the fears you mentioned there is even mathematically an absurd one 80% of the population is Hindu how can they be afraid of a small minority of a smaller minority and what is the demographic calculation by which this number can overcome us, should we not educate them to leave their fear behind and say look let bygones be bygones as he said put that baggage down you referred to Nadir Shah's attack in Delhi 1739 I've written about the British attack in Delhi 1857 but we can forget the British Nadir Shah too? No no we can forget it we just have to make sure it doesn't get repeated that's all I will tell you what's the fear You are not justifying hate I am not justifying I am saying first and foremost thing is whatever people have done historically we don't have to hold it as a reality today only thing is all communities should distance themselves from that historical events but I will tell you wherever there is a certain majority you will see all other things get naturally pushed out totally which is not the way this country has operated I am telling you in Tamil Nadu if you go to certain districts without asking me the state provides me security I say why? So Sadhguru you don't understand certain communities are saying you are coming and you will convert them into something else which is not their way so they put police around me I say India why do I need police around me for me they say that's not the way it is it happened in Tamil Nadu when I went to Kanyakumari they put over 300 armed police around me I say what the hell is this I have never asked for security in my life in Tamil Nadu especially but they put armed police in a program where there are about 12000 people I am walking up and down the ramp and speaking these armed men are walking up and down with me Can I just take on from that there is one criticism of the west that you know they look at India and you call the Pakistanization not you call the west calls the Pakistanization of India is happening and it's a big worry there is a criticism which is widely written in the literature that the west does not worry when there are attacks on Muslims but there are attacks on Christians they all react is that something that is that a reality well let's put it that way there are a lot of reductionist perceptions through media and through politics for instance there is a lot of blame put on Islam per se or Muslim radicals per se but it is often overlooked that the largest number of victims in terms of dead people are actually Muslims in this part of confrontation and we are also forgetting that this is also a by-product of international political polarization after the end of the Cold War a lot of analysts point to the fact that almost all military interventions after the end of the Cold War took place in countries and territories where Muslims live except now we have the rocket man and that is of course now different development but it means you cannot attach just one character one feature to a particular religion there are other people who are equally scared of raising violence in the name of Hindu religion or of Buddhist religion we just had the Rohingya issue so the tendency to be radical or violent can be expressed in the name of any particular ideology or religion and if you look at the history of not even history at the current times of the issue of India you will see there are many more victims of other violent countries than of those connected with Muslims look at the Tamil war look at the other insurgencies in the eastern states of India so we will definitely see unfortunately also because all violence is unfortunate it is rather evenly spread through religions ideologies and faith and non-faith believers they say the two the two D's of India are the greatest asset democracy and diversity but one issue about democracy which you must find very difficult is that it requires numbers of ok 80% Muslims billion Hindus 80% Hindus and 200 million or 180 million Muslims and how do you get a voice in policy making I think that's crucial for people who are disabled or people with mental health problems must be in a position otherwise it's people who don't understand the issue trying to make policies how do you get into making positions that's crucial yes definitely I think and that is something all of us from our disabled community we are voicing and we are talking about that that we need representation at the policy level because you cannot understand what our problems are unless we tell you unless we tell you and because we face it we can tell you directly what our problems are and policies can be even the societal attitudes discriminatory attitudes per se so the policies even implemented on that basis are especially very important and I think to truly achieve an inclusive policy making or to have a pluralistic society I think what we need to understand is we are disabled by the societal attitudes and we need to understand that disability does not it lies in the eyes of the observer not the observed and we should talk about it and we know now what we deserve in our society and what are our policy concerns so where we need to be included and meet school college how does one have people in parliament who I mean there should be a group who are facing the problems rather than others who don't understand it no we've tried to raise the issue in parliament frankly I've spoken out publicly against the failure of the government to pass the disability people with disabilities bill we ratified the UN convention but we haven't actually converted it into our own legislation and if you look around our country disabled people have no ramps people like her should be in policy making position in a democracy that means she has to get elected but otherwise short of that people who are elected can seek her advice can get inputs from her and push those forward ideally what is the government to listen to people like you when the government becomes so visible and people are hearing what you have to say means your ideas will gain traction that's one strength of an open society people will talk about you write about you and your views will reach but ultimately we need laws to change this do you face a wall that's again built that you can't find tough to break down to influence policy to influence attitude I have worked upon and I have noticed the difference because you tell one person contact is very important so when someone sees me they know that yes they can change their attitude but policy it's a different whole different level and you know we need to we have the rallies we have our groups protest groups talking about our rights and very simple ones just the word that is being used to indicate us or to stand for national anthem every time when the movie is being played or to have reservation for us on lower birds in railways there are so many concerns accessibility universal design these are very very important issues and I think accessible public transport and I think a number of these issues definitely need to be heard and I think we still have a long way to go you raise the national anthem sorry please yes see what Malvika is saying is it's unfortunate that such situations still exist but policies can be made but I feel these issues will be only settled by a more human society rather than a rule because a rule book doesn't really work in this level of thing that when somebody is incapable of something you reach out to them is a natural human attitude if we have surrendered that attitude for some reason bringing it back in the social ethos is more important then fix a rule because if you fix a rule still it may not happen because that person needs that little help at that moment so I think it's a lot of work to be done in the society I am going to do something which I have not done before please excuse me if I get it wrong can we just stand for a second I'll tell you when in school we used to always sing the second stanza of the national anthem which we no longer do and if you ask me that stanza means more than any other stanzas and I don't know why we don't sing it we just I'll try and remember it you mean after the national anthem itself it's part of the national anthem national anthem has many stanzas we only do the first one and we've given up this second which we used to sing every time the second stanza and to me when in this discussion when we talk about building walls and communities and minorities that stanza means a lot and it is that's what our national anthem talks about and we should sing it every time because that is India that is the diversity of India why have we given that up you mean to say why have we given up the stanza that's because they wanted to reduce it to 57 seconds technical issues not because that's not relevant that's still relevant to us but they wanted to make it less than 60 seconds so and also they're singing it singing it like speed national anthem very rapidly so I am very unfortunate but I mean that you said this see we must understand one fundamental ethos of Indian psyche we don't really have a problem what god you worship because in the same family there are 32 gods and goddesses and there is that's okay but I am saying even before that see every other form of whatever I'll tell you one thing you take one picture of some pious looking man usually they must be bearded if it's a man and take it and give it to one old I'm glad you didn't use the word god man come to that god man restructure that one if you give this picture to an old lady in some village and say this is a great sage she will keep it in her puja room and worship without knowing who the hell he is this is the only culture which does that so do not destroy that by imposing something forceful you have to believe this otherwise you are not this or that you don't have to believe anything to be in this country okay you have to believe anything to be a part of this culture because everybody can do their own thing that is we know the technology of god making we for every one of us we made our own god there's something called as yishtadevata that you can create your own god or goddess if you like the tree you can make the tree into your god if you like a rock you can make rock into your god this is a phenomena this is the most wonderful thing because this is the dimension of life which should never be organized because the moment it's organized it becomes something else so this we realized from ancient times and we made it in such a way it can never be organized there is a desperate attempt to organize it but it's not working anyway you cannot organize it because to organize something you need one particular belief system there is no particular belief system in this country but I think I am glad that we made this debate on pluralism to the national anthem because indeed nationalism is such a major issue in the world today in our country today and to my mind what I find myself you have met your match you have got alia bhat to compete with please come in welcome welcome welcome she has a question hi for both of you Karan question for you I have to answer thank you both of you for being here my only my suggestion rather is when I want more people with disability to be shown in movies and to be shown in a positive way to have more positive portrayal of people with disabilities because there are people who are going to show there are so many people who watch movies and I think you can directly impact a lot of people who have no idea about disability so it's my request and it is something that I really wish for that we want more representation of people with disability in cinema and a positive portrayal as such well I am no filmmaker I am an actor but I think I absolutely agree with you I don't want to be saying too much but I have to say I have already read two scripts in which there is very positive very happy very cheerful display of people with disabilities and hopefully I will play some character someday so thank you for this suggestion because definitely it's very very well taken and point noted the producer there can confirm that the man who makes films and you well I actually did project disability when I directed a film called My Name Is Khan in 2010 which dealt with autism, Australian of it Asperger's Syndrome and we touched upon that and a fair amount of research went into the projection of that character so I know what goes into it because and I think that what's I think it's what's imperative is that when you project a disability is to really get into the ethos of it and not just you know touch upon it because just for emotional manipulation because I think as a filmmaker that would be letting down the cause and what you're trying to do with the character so yes definitely point noted thank you ma'am also one more just one more suggestion to Karan actually in fact how about having people with disability portray people with disability on so how about that for a change then the actor will not win the award you're taking you're grabbing you're grabbing a chance no definitely but thank you so much thank you this is truly an honor thank you Bollywood's a great advertisement for Indian Floralism anyway so keep it up