 Okay, no thank you so much. I think that was a very a very good session with Susan page and thank you for asking the right questions. Unfortunately we didn't have enough time to explore everything in as much depth as we wanted to but the good thing is that we've made the connection she's been able to share the city department's perspective and listen to our concerns and I'm sure that those are going to filter filter off the channel and we'd also be able to continue this discussion with her at another date. This morning we talked a lot about the development side health education etc but we also know that a lot of what we discussed is contingent upon a stable state and strong responsive and accountable leadership. Today this afternoon we're going to look a bit more at the peace building politics and security side and we are very pleased to have a number of panelists. I'd like to single out Victor Elunga not just because he's sitting right next to me because he came all the way from the United Kingdom to participate and share his thoughts with us on effective leadership for peace building in the Congo. Thank you so much for coming all this way. Thank you. We also have with us Monsieur Jacques who is going to talk to us about the electoral process. A lot of questions about elections and the democratic process we raised and then our third speaker we have is Dr. Stefan Tubeny who will talk about good governance as an engine of economic growth. I'm not sure if George Zongola would be joining us at all but I think in the three present we have a very capable panel and I think it'll cover the breadth of issues that we want to discuss. Once again I'm going to appeal to them to speak for about 12 to 15 minutes to give enough time for your questions. So I'll start with Mr Elunga who will talk to us about effective leadership and thank you. The floor is yours. Thank you very much. First of all I have to say that I was sitting there listening to everyone and listening to all the questions and I said to the people who were next to me I said I think I have a very difficult afternoon today because of the topic I'm covering and I hope you can all understand me. I have a slightly different accent than most of you here. I've got small presentation we're going to go through. It's a challenge in itself to talk about such a broad subject such as leadership in 10-12 minutes but I'm going to try my best. Thank you very much for having me this afternoon. I'm trying to share with you some thoughts on what we see as a leadership that would help the DRC on its way to stability and development. I just didn't see those things but bear with me. The main points are there. We're going to look at the concept and definition, current facts and figures, new vision and materialisation, then competence, ability followed by character and then we're going to draw some conclusion which I hope most of us will agree with. Next one please. What is a leadership? Leadership is simply a quality and this quality has three main elements. One of them is the vision. This vision is basically a state of things to be but this is in the future. It's not now. It's not in the present. It's a state of things that may happen or can happen in the future, can take place and it must be materialisable. Sorry if my accent is not that good but it must be a vision that can be implemented, it can be made real. That's what is meant by materialisable. Also when you have a vision then it's got to be the leadership or the person embodying this leadership must have the ability to actually make that vision happen. So you have a vision, you have the ability to make it happen and the third element is the character and the character is basically, if you like, the soft skill, the soft skill side of the leadership. So the ability would be the hard skills. Next one please. Now if you look at it that way you could see leadership as this tool with three legs. One of them is vision, the other one is the confidence as well as the soft skill. This fishbowl, basically the stability of the fish, or put it this way, the life of the fish in this fishbowl depends on the stability of the stool and if you lose one of these legs that fish is in big trouble. Period. So you can have the vision, great. If you don't have the competence your stool is not stable. If you have the vision and you have the competence and you have very poor soft skills as some of you who have been in management would know the team or the people working to carry out this vision will not function properly and this stability here will be lost. Now you would notice the floor there is a pretty wooden floor but some of us would have heard the expression that the world is such a dangerous place if not a very hard place. Now that floor could actually be a stony ground. The jar has no chance if you fell through that floor it has no chance of remaining in one piece so the fish is in serious trouble. Now I'm not going to spend much time on this section because most of you here are familiar with the current state of things in the Congo but I've just highlighted main point here just to establish what the current situation is because we are talking about the vision which is things to become so we must be having a present which is a completely different situation than what we are aiming for. So the DRC is actually leveled in some report as the richest patch on earth sorry the richest patch of earth on the planet that is true it's not me some reports that said that. Estimated population nearly 70 million one of the least developed countries in sub-Saharan Africa again those are reports and many of us can actually testify to that. Languages spoken French Lingala Swahili Tuva and Kikongo that would explain why some of us have a very funny accent speaking English but there you are that's a Kikongo speaking British. Thank you GDP this is 2009 only about 11 billion dollars per capita is 171 US dollars for a whole year so you can imagine somebody earning that kind of money to live on for 365 days when you divide it by that but the number of days in a year you get less than half a dollar basically to live on. This is another disturbing figure you've got the import is about 5.3 billion dollars and the export is only about 3.8 now that equation is is actually telling a figure so it means that DRC is spending much more money than it's taken in now any economy to tell you what word that would lead to quality of life security the DRC has one of the most vulnerable populations on earth this is a report published by DFID. DFID is the equivalent of your USAIDs here in England they published this last January last year and I believe it hasn't changed that much in fact since they published this report you now have this war in in in Equator in Dongo and so on so situation has actually gone worse you know to my estimate life expectancy 46 years I'm 42 today well I will be 43 at the end of this year so I've only got about three years to live according to this. Some of us guys may be already living out of the time. Okay average Congolese is defined as being very poor and lives on less than a dollar a day as we've shown by that figure. Now the next thing is division. We have described how things are at moment but what we need to do is project what we want that country to be and that's the vision this is what we're going to go through and it's all defined here we want a stable and prosperous DRC that's the fact everyone is saying it well I'm not going to be the last one to say it but please allow me to join the bandwagon. So that's the vision we want and that's what we want to implement. Now the question is how are we going to make this happen that is part of the leadership so now we have the vision now the question is do we have the skills the hard skills and the soft skills to make it happen. So we're going to explore a little bit what this vision how we can actually make it happen during the few next slides. So the first part is stabilizing. Stabilizing DRC we're talking about peace and security so build the the defense and security capacity or capability of the country consolidate the political institutions consolidate the economy because we know what happened I mean you can have people working on the defense and the political institutions but if the economy isn't working then you're not really doing much in fact the only reason the politics exist is actually to manage the economy very well for the country that's that's really the end of it and we've got peaceful and constructive relations with neighboring countries I've heard some people talk about Rwanda and Uganda and say well you know we really shouldn't have anything to do them but the reality is we never going to get them out of where they are and you know tip them somewhere else they would always be our neighbors so we have to think about solutions that will include them so that we can all live in peace that that is a fact we can't get away from that construct the constructive relations with all our international friends and allies so this is what it translates to in pictures for those who can now can understand pictures more we're talking about an army that is really a national army that has the interest of DRC apart not private militias or any form of what we've been hearing here this morning as well as this afternoon we we're going to need to implement measures to build a regular national army which I've just talked about recruitment programs for youth service and so on for you for youth into national service establish low and order structures establish and build adequate reliable law enforcement organizations we're talking police and whatever other law enforcement organizations that we're going to need because remember the army is for this the security and the defense of the country rounded borders but inside the country you you you have to use the police and other structures to maintain the law and so five minute okay I'm not even asked political stability obviously we have to to have political stability otherwise before long you have people fighting and then they've gone by arms and so on and we back to square one so I'm gonna have to skim through next next slide please prospering DRC now this is a bit ambitious you look at I think well who does this guy think he is but that's that's my idea of what the economy should be and and I mean I've over the last few weeks I've been talking to my colleagues George and as well as others regarding what we would really like to do that country but in any country in it in any country at all you look at the economic system you'll have you'll find that they have this structure here where you've got a certain sectors industry sectors that are considered to be the leading sectors if you look at Iceland for instance the leading sector is the banking or financial sector in in in in the UK we have manufacturing as well as the financial sector and and here in the US I don't know you probably know that better than I do you know you can but then underneath that layer you've got supportive or supporting layers these are economic sectors that are actually primarily supporting this they are contributing to the top layer and and of course I'm not saying they're not bringing in any money they are except that they're not as much of a priority at the country level as the top part of the triangle then you go to the next layer which is the maintenance layer here we are talking about service layers such as healthcare and other industries at the bottom there you have preparation layer what I have called professional basically this is the education now how does this work I don't know how you do it here in the in the US but I think you're doing exactly something as we do in the UK when I went to uni many many years ago there was a particular curriculum for engineering degree which I did now 10 years down the line you look at the same course the same engineering course you find that the curriculum has completely changed why because then it was important to have you know to know the hardware for instance now it's far more important well it's important to know the hardware but the software has taken actually over you know you have to know the software everybody doing electronics degree these days must be able to program so that you find that reflected in the education why because that is the need in this bit here so the preparation stage they look at what the trend what's happening in the if you like the employment market what are the jobs that are being created what are the needs here and then the educational stage is actually readjusted to meet the need the economic need of this particular part of the triangle that's and we must do this in Congo to give you an example back in 1980s I was still in Congo and I was still doing my electronics course and guess what they were teaching us valves electronics valve if any of you would know what that is but interestingly enough nobody in the world no company was making valves at the time because everyone had moved on to integrated circuits and transistors and so on but here we were they're teaching us of ours which nobody's making and many many of many of Congolese here can actually testify to that you go to school in Congo they teach you very very old things which nobody's using give a PC to a Congolese child today they don't know what to do with it whereas that is what this economy here needs so we must connect this to the rest of the sectors now and this this is what my colleague that getting it was talking about next slide please quickly we're just gonna have to rush for this I've already spoken about this again right now one of the things mentioned was the roots it was sorry the roads building now the first thing you want to do is in order to have an economy you have first you have to locate people you have to know where people are because it's in connecting people that you're going to move things around and people move around that's what makes the economy so when you look at this map you see the distribution in the population or in DRC we're all right we know there's been a lot of movement around here with all the the walls and some people are moving around but if you consider that to be static you've got about 10 million in Kinshasa you've got about 1.7 million here in Burjimahi 1.5 in Lubumbashi and maybe 1.4 here million in Kananga you've got 1 million in Kisangani and so on and you got this band here so the easiest thing to do the first thing I would do is link them up because that gives you one big single market that you can distribute things to you can sell things to those people so this will be the minimum possible requirement for road building in Kongo that is the starting point if we don't do this forget the rest next please now this shows you the the if you like the maritime transport capability you've got the river Kongo there and this is what's being used now can you just go back a bit yeah okay and 3 this part here when we get to the agricultural map you will see it this is the second biggest rain forest in the world it's the second biggest carbon sink for the planet you destroy this we all in big trouble so whatever road we're building we must preserve the environment around here so because of those three reasons first there's less population around here than the other part of the arty second there is a river Kongo which can be used more efficiently and third there is a rain forest because of those three reasons it will be wise not to plan a massive massive road building around here could we go to the next one now this is the map I was talking about you can see the the rainforest there it as I said it's the second biggest in the world next one please now all those things we've spoken about for the man and woman in the street this is what they would see they would see these jobs you know you remember the triangle yeah this is what it is basically there for a man and woman in the street they would see that they would see that there are jobs in mining industry there are jobs in agricultural industry there are jobs in in transport and the jobs in in defense those that is the top tier of the triangle I was talking about then you have the supporting layer all these industries we're talking about transformation industries you know we've got minerals and so on we can transform all those minerals into metal and whatever we need Jordan I had had that long long discussions about this and we pretty much in sync so that when we're building our road we won't need to go and beg somebody to give us all the we should like the metal to to build a bridge and so on the supporting layer continue that but you got maintenance layer which is basically the health care service and all the other services that a country need in order to function properly this is the professional layer sorry this is professional layer education next one competence we've got a long list here the shopping list is wrong but we've highlighted few things here which are absolutely important anybody running anything will have to be able to adequately plan and execute and that is part of the competence good organizational skills you've got to be able to organize your work and as well as the team and what have you next one please character now again the list here would be the shopping list will be very long but we've got few things here that are completely you know indispensable you cannot do without this we need integrity we need a leadership that is made of men and women who can actually say a and you trust them that they're gonna do a because they said so they've got good morals go ethics well you see they're not gonna steal the public money for their own means and what have you and and of course there's so many of them here this this particular element is the one that if you like governs as my colleague who will be talking about the good governance might might agree with me without these elements here you get all kinds of mishaps that are happening in in the Congo without the character bit you can be brilliant you can be a genius but if you soft skills are not that good one you may not have fairness you may not have equity you wouldn't be able to grant somebody what they deserve because your soft skills are extremely poor and this is the element that actually makes any group to go from the present to the future the projected future and not killing each other on the way or when they get there they still want one team that is working together next one please conclusion that's the last one I'm sorry okay so that's the conclusion we just reinstating what leadership is but in the end what we're saying is this as part of the conclusion it's good for us Congolese to sit here and ask for help from international community and it's good that the international community is listening but at least somebody is listening now but we want more than just listening with you know it would help if actions can come as well but in the end it will have to be a leadership that can provide at the end of the division implementation we have a legacy that everybody is proud of because we're gonna have to provide a leadership that the international community can look back on and say yes we're proud to have helped this leadership get on his feet look at what is done with Congo we're proud of it thank you very much thank you very much thank you very much and everybody during the morning section we heard about many practical solutions that our colleagues have proposed for development of our country and what can we demand is that all those practical solutions are good and if implemented Congo can be a very prosperous country but who's gonna implement those practical solutions that have been brought about and that's where the issue of leadership and issue of democratic process come about and my point today I'm going to talk about elections and during our session many issues or many points have been already issued about the election process in Congo so what I want to do now is maybe point out to what I believe to be practical solutions to bring about good transparent and fair as elections in Congo we all know the importance of elections though it has been raised up that elections in Congo are not usually what we should expect because of corruption because of many other procedural things which makes it to not be very transparent but because we are already in a democratic process which unfortunately is fainting we should we are called to go to the 2011 elections and that's why I call them elections of hope hoping that those elections will bring about good leadership which will bring a which will govern our country through good governance and through democracy and I've suggested some prerequisites for good elections in Congo and the first the first prerequisites was the respect of the Constitution for the first four five months or three we have heard that there were some kind of people trying to manipulate the Constitution so that they can change things we know that whenever there is a flawed interpretation of Constitution it's usually to benefit the government the current government which is there and as a result it brings chaotic electoral process and we to still bring us in a chaotic leadership that we are today deploying that's why I propose that which the government should not temper the Constitution now the second one it's a timely establishment of electoral calendar up to now we don't have any clear calendar for the elections the undersecretary of states even told us that the municipal elections or the local elections which were programmed for this year are postponed for 2012 so which is already a failure so and if today some things are trying to move up it's because the international community have wrote a letter to the government to pressurize them to start the electoral process we know that according to a constitution article 73 we should have presidential elections three months before the end of the mandate of the current president we want we'll call for the enforcement of the respect of the Constitution so that we can respect at least that timing and in that we the third prerequisites was the reformation of the CCE which is Commission Electoral Independent or the Commission Electoral Independent electoral Commission today according to the constitution of Congo that Commission should be dissolved right after the elections but it's the one which is still working today which means that it's working and constitutionally to the president of that Commission has a rank of a minister as Dr. Kiting said it it shows that he is responding to the government which means that he's no longer independent like that three we should note that even the vice president of that Commission is also a minister in the current government so that's why Congolese people suspect the fact that this current government cannot if it will organize elections those elections cannot be fair or transparent because the Commission the Commission Electoral Independent is not independent as it is so that's why we suggested that our Commission Electoral Independent be formed following the model of other countries like the USA whereby the member of the Commission Electoral Independent go through the parliament even our constitution has that provision so that the parliament can hear them and prove their independence and then they can be okay they can be confirmed by the president to those people should have the member should have a mandate a clear mandate of three years maybe three times renew book the president of that Commission Electoral Independent should not be nominated by the president of the country but he should be elected by his pair members in the same elect in the electoral the election Commission and he will have it can be called president it can be called chairman and he will have maybe a mandate of three years two times renewable and the last one that I propose is that all the members of the Commission Electoral Independent should denounce to any future political career because if they have the views the ambition of become of doing politics one day they can that can bring them to be partial the fourth prerequisites was the freedom of speech and political activities we know that many reports have shown that that freedom is really fencing slowly and slowly we call for the respect of the constitution we call for that freedom and I've proposed that the Monique has a radio in Congo that that radio be used or be opened to the political parties so that they have their their opinion their views can be known today to the public because today the public radios are owned by the government the government is not opening them to to the political parties but the political parties has to do their job and to inform the population so that's why we believe that the radio for the Monique can help opening a window to political parties so that they can they can educate the population about their programs now the six prerequisites was the security here we know that as I don't know if it's a Lula or the manager who told it who said it Congo is not only a question of bad governance but Congo can become also a question of security for Congolese only for Congolese for the region and even for the entire world if the leadership in Congo continue to be the same five or ten years after this we can see okay it can happen that we see something which is not good for the world because we have minerals that can be used in the manufacturing only of strategic minerals so if we have a bit of bad leadership those minerals can fall into the arms of bad people terrorists and it can be harmed for the entire world so today I know politics it's about interest or diplomacy it's about interest but we should see beyond our interest American should be see beyond our day interest the international community should see beyond their interest and see what is good for the interest of everybody and to about the security in Congo for the elections I propose that the money the political parties and the government creates a sort of security community committee to guarantee the security of political parties because today as everybody said it the army and the police is under the control of cabela so we cannot go on elections and believe that those election will be fair if there is nothing which is done to secure the opposition I want to the founding of the opposition party political parties and this is where I come about I come back to the issue of corruptions today elections in Congo if we give a tissue to somebody you show that you vote for you or if you give him one dollar or two dollars so the votes are being bought but why it's because it's only the party which is governing which has the money and all other political parties which have had the ideas good ideas don't have don't have enough money to do to carry out their activities so I suggest that if really the international community want to help Congo to come out of the gate where it is now they should found the political parties or they should pressure large the government to find them which I don't believe will be done so maybe them can do that for us now I have I wanted to talk about the 2000 elections which I called the endorsement of majority majority but we talked about it some believe that it was fair but many reports that have come out shows that it was not really fair the Carter Center when coming from Congo say that important procedure procedure flows that weakened the transparency of the process which means that they found out that there were many procedure flows which shows that the elections were not transparent even some candidates like Bamba as I asked even before the election they say that they think that we are heading perhaps we are leading for a masquerade of parody for a parody of elections which means that many people did not believe that these elections will be fair and transparent as a result those elections brought about a leadership which is not competent and which is doing nothing for the interest for the interest of the Congolese people so that's why we be we hope that the community international and the Congolese people can draw a lesson out of the 2006 elections and now prepare for good elections in 2011 and for them to prepare for it well Congolese people have to vote wisely and they expect that their votes will be respected but because people believe that the ballot cases were either replaced or were filled up with other votes that were not votes that the people did so now I came with a solution for that I said okay if we can make sure that the votes are counted on the polling station and the results are given publicly and if we can come up with a community of diaspora and the international community to find a system whereby those results can be sent directly communicated directly to Kinshasa through the technology maybe through email through through phones and that will require to have a good system of people who are who can start working now in order to prepare for those coming elections just to make sure that the voices of people are respected and counts because when the people know that their voices were respected that's when they will be involved more in the political process of the country and slowly by slowly we can start seeing a changement but when they see that they have voted for X but it's Y who was how was been proclaimed as winner they start losing their their interest in the political system and in even in their way their country is governed so I know my time is winding up but what I wanted to propose is that if the community international can pressure can put can pressurize our government to have good elections we know that the community international know how to organize good elections because they have been organizing good elections in other countries so why can't they do the same in Congo so they the present that we are asking to the community international is to be sincere with the Congolese crisis and come up about with a good plan that they have been implement implemented in other countries so that we can have transparent and good selections and I thank you very much well I hope the technical problem has been sorted out this is the theme of our discussion this afternoon it was about accountable leadership and we were asked to talk about good governance and among all the goals of the our station we proposed the last one and I think everybody will concur with me that the sharing of the Congolese the as for as willingness to engage actually the actual engagement in the development of the Congo is much needed because most often we get into academic discussions and after that we we disperse and we go on our ways and nothing is done so I think somebody mentioned few years ago we had discussion with the State Department at one point and then suddenly die out so I hope that these forum or this kind of forum will continue but lead to tangible actions rather than just academic exercise my presentation has four parts I will just briefly discuss the the concept of good governance and I will compare that good governance to what is going on in the Congo which I call mismanagement or misapplication of the concept and I will provide some strategies that can be implemented in order to achieve these good governance and also discuss briefly this building strategy is one of the reasons why we hear and finally I will give some concluding remarks starting with good governance concept the definition by definition governance is the exercise of authority that could be in the political field in economic also administrative field to manage a country's resources and affairs when you talk about governance there are some mechanisms they are processes and also institutions through which citizens and groups of people can articulate their interest they can exercise the legal right meet the obligations and also do mediation among groups most recently the US Secretary of State was in the Congo that was last year in August of last year and I quote you have some remarks she said we know that the promise of DRC is limitless we will help you build a strong civilian-led government that is accountable transparent independent judiciary professional military that respect human rights a free press and an active and engaged citizenry a society whose institutions respect the rule of law that's a quite a statement if an official from the government the US government is able to recognize that we need all of these means that we don't have it now this is quite clear and also statement by Miss Page I think she alluded to those statements and one of the statements also from the Secretary of the State she said and I quote I think that student leaders she was talking to students student leaders like yourselves are the ones who have to speak out for the progress that you seek speak out to and the corruption the balance and the conflict that have for too long eroded opportunities across this country together you can write a new chapter of Congolese history which is another truth we know that from the past students were very much engaged in changing government government or political regimes in the Congo when in the 60s he sent students to the army and all the strikes that used to go on in the Congo in the 60s and 70s the government's plan in the Congo is recognized in the five strategies and that from the UN DP website actually they have committed themselves to 390 million investment for governance program UN DP and on those five strategic government components in the Congo which the first one is on political situation in the Congo where they have provided enough money through the institutions and actually the parliament where they have to move through very structured institutions in the Congo when it comes to the parliament the administrative commitment also is their economic component local legal and security issues all of these in PRSP strategy by the World Bank all combined to cities happening and that has those goals to achieve those five strategies the first goal is to lay the groundwork for the emergence of a strong state capable of boosting national unity and reconciliation to ensure the security of its people and their prosperity to increase citizen access and participation and political system and so on so as we can see those goals but let me just talk about a little bit about the evaluation of that program for those far away you may not see the graph to the left that's the governance indicators as you can see there is high correlation between governance indicators and economic development indicators I will say even this is the poverty indicators because economic indicators they show the progress that the country has made over the years this is a report from UNDP in 2007 actually corroborating some of the remarks by my colleagues that have been here before me Mr. Ilunga had to talk about it when here looking at a different perspective you see that HDI that's the human development index Congo ranking 176 countries over 182 so that's the top bottom in that ranking and then we have HPI which is rank of poverty so we are 120th country out of 135 GDP so you saw that with other colleague and life expectancy 48 adult literacy in this country is about 99% and the Congo is only 60-70% access to safe and drinking water that shows the health component of our people only 46% but when you look to the other side the governance indicators let me read it's shown in percentile when your child comes from home and you said oh daddy I score 75th in percentile it means what it means that she is 775th above any other people so which means that in the case of the Congo the percentile for voice and accountability we rank on the top 8% this is really very very disturbing political stability it's about 2% in that percentile government effectiveness that's almost no it's close to that line actually and then the rule of law and control of corruption you see that actually the figure is showing two years from 2007 2008 and see the change so they have not much change what are the recommendations like my time is up but let me very quickly see what is going on there what I've said is that you know the Congo is a failed state so we can go to the next one I'm talking about executive branch what we need to do is to have commissions in Parliament and commissions that have to have leadership in true democratic elections and we have to have a plan for peace in the Congo in greater leg regions and that is not happening we have to strengthen our judiciary we have to create a national program to support governments that will be a structure that will coordinate all the activities involving good governance we need to promote accountability and also the transparency and the management of the country yes when it comes to peace building we have to go by two principles one is and everybody's talking about leadership and again it comes again we have to see how we can get in place responsible transformational leadership and how we get there through democratic elections like we saw earlier the peace building strategy strategies for the Congo I know we have had war in the East Congo but like in South Africa they had established truth and reconciliation commissions I have not seen that happening in the Congo where people sit and talk about the problems and solve within in the community and also punish those that have been fined guilty of you know wrongdoing in the Congo we have to promote the and protect human rights and we have to establish and promote democratic institutions in concluding for many years Congo has been operating in culture of impunity and again we share that we have to come up with mechanisms that will advocate for accountability we have to actually bring to justice those we have been fined guilty of any wrongdoing and I will leave you with a statement by yeah just go go to the last one yeah this is a 16 years old girls that it was asked to write about crisis in the Congo and she discussed the refugee situation in East Congo and by the way she got 99% on her essay and she's in fifth grade but it's what what he called 11th grade and she said although interference from international organization and other countries is necessary a national government must take responsibility for the welfare of the nation the weak government of the Democratic Republic of Congo requires extensive reconstruction to protect his borders protect his citizens and permanently and the refugee crisis and you believe that that's 16 years old and not never been to Congo born here raised here researching on the you know assistance from Congo and that's what she found and that 16 years old is what happened to be my daughter thank you thank you welcome our fourth panelist Dr. George is Angola speaking to us briefly about peace justice and security how much time 10 minutes thank you chair and thank you Dr. Lula for inviting me actually I was invited yesterday and I haven't seen the programs I don't know what has gone on before and having been at DCRES for a long time I went to the wrong address for the Institute where I used to be wanted to find out it is moved to here so that's why I'm late but I'm not what I'm going to do is basically to say things that you have already heard so I'm basically reinforcing what this distinguished panel has said in terms of talking about peace justice and security the main question is what are the main threats to peace justice security in the DRC today and what should be done to restore this is a very simple question and the main threats I've chosen basically three the first is basically the conclusion that distinguished panelist here child has said 16 year old state failure the Congo is a country of continental dimensions very very huge if was superimposed on a map of Western Europe goes all the way from London to pass Berlin extremely large and yet we have been invaded occupied and looked at by states of Lilliputian sides like Rwanda and Uganda who are smaller than the smallest of our district and Rwanda smaller than the smallest district in the Congo and Uganda's smallest and the smallest province in the Congo and yet we're able to to give us hard time why because we have no state to speak of we have very weak state institutions we have state governed by people who don't care about the security of the people this was shown just recently when Human Rights Watch reported that the laws this is army this group of child soldiers drunk on him you know went into a village and killed over 350 people the government of DRC responded Human Rights Watch was wrong was exaggerating but from their account only 25 people were killed so for the governor of Congo 25 people isn't nothing you know so when responsible states like the government of Israel the government of US would pursue the killer of one of their citizens for us 25 is nothing to worry about the Human Rights Watch is exaggerating the sociality the level of commitment Mr. Ilunga talked about ethics and morals it's a government of no morals the governments of ethical commitment to the standards of governance as we understand them so the state decay and the professor weaknesses at institutions explain the situation why we have no peace we have no justice and have no security the security forces cannot protect the public we again the losses army went to the city of Raje in Oriental province on Christmas Day 2008 butchered men women and children there was no Congolese army to be found no Congolese police force to be found and the question is what are we doing then what do we have this this institution we have a huge huge army pletoric who lost the soldiers we have a huge police force and yet a small group of child soldiers can enter a town and butcher people and we don't we don't see these people economic management agencies are even by corruption and incompetence they are unable to mobilize revenue for the state one group of experts estimated that our customs collect in a year one tenth what we're supposed to collect certainly collect a lot more than one tenth but the money disappears and it goes into their pockets it goes into the pockets of officials rather than going to the state treasury we have a situation where we are a great producer of electricity through the Inga Dam to provide electricity to Zambian Zimbabwe and to our neighbors to the north Santa Fe and poverty the West Congo Brazil and others we can provide electricity to the city of Kinshasa right in the capital city and of course again by electricity to all the other cities and the Inga Shaba line which was from from the Inga Dam to Coluesi so again showing the incompetence of and of course the lack of planning and lack of foresight and part of our rulers our state agencies are unable to deliver service of the citizens in a timely and equitable manner we all know the matter of concerning passports today many companies can't travel we don't have no passports and and some have traveled from Japan and Canada and Russia to go to Kinshasa to get the passport I had to spend $400 to get one within two days and I was in Kinshasa end of June and begin of July I said I'm leaving on July 3rd so I got to get this passport they said well you know just give us money we'll we'll take it or everything so anyway I managed to get one so we're looking at the failstack no because I just said because I was told that I had to provide a certificate of nationality I said but I hate the one when I was a member of the Electoral Commission 96 I hate the nationality they said well we have to go to to Kajie Judicierre I have to go to the security police we have to find out about your criminal record this is the this is the bureaucrats the forum is telling me it's the week what we need the money to find this information so I gave this money to bureaucrats in the forum ministry because they said they needed it to find the information they needed to give me a passport anyway so we have a state whose rulers have lost all legitimacy and rely on force corruption and foreign support in order to cling to power today President Kabila is attempting to change the Constitution so he can stand forever and of course there are people who are willing to help him to this because they too benefit from the system as it is the second factor of the lack of peace justice and security is of course the rest of war in eastern Congo this we have had a creeping occupation and creeping balkanization of the DRC since 1996 first with the FDL which Laurent Kabila himself aptly described as a conglomerate of adventurers which is to say that this was a group of people who had no vision for a country no organization was simply recruited by neighboring states who wanted an excuse wanted a justification for their drive to remove movement from power and found Kabila and put him in power we've had Rwanda in Uganda got access to Congolese resources through this this adventure then two years later they invaded the country openly to be able to control it through proxy such as the RCD the MLC and later on the CNDP which today is integrated into the Congolese army and yet which you know from even the New York Times site the issue on December 4 2008 indicate the CNDP is filled up of Rwandan soldiers so we have the use of the so-called FDLR the Hutu militia today we understand that Reverend Mulunda is taking the FDLR to Katanga and to lower Congo to do what why is FDLR which is supposed to be threatening Rwanda security and which is supposed to be disarmed as a security force being being sent out of Pasadokonga is that to provide Rwanda no justification to come all the way to Katanga and to lower Congo which they went to in 1998 to see that they have to destroy these so-called genocides but again we know that the Umoja way to Amanileo office organization I mean office operations were under the control of the CNDP which is certainly a unit which is not trustworthy and which is led by a criminal wanted by international criminal court so we think that the there is an external complicity when the president of the Congo next agreements of a state that is basically threatening our security and we are told that this is a very statement-like behavior is something for the West Congolese that is that amount of treason is nothing that is good for Congolese interest we need to have a strong state we need this state but is governed by patriotic and responsible Congolese who put the interest of the country ahead of everything else so how do we restore peace justice and security in the DRC first up to give of the the the root causes of the armed conflict and justice and insecurity we have to establish that authority throughout the national territory we need the leaders who are really committed to this we need a capacity enforcement of state institutions this was already done here in terms of what Ilunga said in terms of a responsible Republican discipline army we need judicial reform is to come to situation we have independent judiciary and not the judiciary that can be corrupt we can be controlled by the government and of course we need to send random troops back home which means to dismantle the CNDP and make sure that all the stories we have are citizens of the Congo rather than from different countries we need to mount a strong international campaign against the hypocrisy of world leaders who tell us for example to forget the past and look to the future the Jean Pierre Mbello one of our smartest priests in one of his blogs asked mrs. Clinton after his speech in kinshasa in August last she said with mrs. Clinton and the US establishment would like to forget September 11 and look to the future I think this is a very interesting question when we ask for reparation from Belgium they say no but why should other countries say you know get reparations for crimes committed against them why we shouldn't be able to ask for reparations and so we need to mount a very strong campaign to talk about the silence in Russia community by the heinous crimes been committed in the Congo and what the Catholic bishops of the Congo called in a statement 2008 is the silent genocide against the Congolese people thank you very much thank you very much excellent presentations on aspects of peacebuilding governance leadership justice and security and we have about 20 25 minutes for questions and again I will start on this side and again other other people gravity please be very very very brief we'll take four on this side the four hands I see up and then we'll move to this side to start with you c'est vrai la durée de vie au cours de 46 ans aujourd'hui j'ai 72 ans et vous avez l'âge de mon second fils qui va fêter ces 44 ralenties je m'excuse beaucoup mais ça me fait mal de vous attendre dire qu'on ne fait pas du Rwanda et de l'Ouganda et la même situation se retrouve entre le Congo et l'autre pays c'est à dire on trouve les mêmes tribus au Congo et dans le pays voici pour quoi n'avons pas de problème avec tous les autres pays voisins sauf avec les rwanda why we don't have problem with of such intensity with other country only with Rwanda but other people added Angola and Uganda also je peux vous confirmer que les sénateurs l'une d'abord à des voisins en bien et les sénateurs au Congo il n'y a pas de problème I can confirm to you that the senator has never come from Zambia he has come from Zambia but still he is a senator in the Congo pendant longtemps nous avons fécu avec les Rwanda en paix for a long time we live with Rwanda in peace I would really appeal for a question we don't have much time When you tell us not to talk about Rwanda what is the responsibility of the Congo in what has happened in Rwanda what has the Congo done wrong in Rwanda or what we are doing today and who is attacking who and who is doing wrong who is responsible what is the responsibility of the Congo for what has happened in Rwanda who is attacking who what is our responsibility for what is going on in Rwanda Concerne à l'économie, là je crois aussi qu'il y a quelque chose qui ne va pas parce que 80% de l'économie congolaise est hors norme par l'informer About the economy, 80% of the congolaise economy is on the informal sector Ce n'est pas le diplôme qui manque au Congo, c'est l'utilité qu'on a fait The diploma is on the degree that I am missing in the Congo but what do you do with your education? Qu'est-ce que vous nous proposez concrètement pour cela? What are your suggestions, concrètement? Pour améliorer l'économie du Congo, pour trouver, créer de l'emploi pour ces gens diplômés To improve the Congo's economy and help those young people who have that Thank you Thank you There is the gentleman here, please be very brief on the right These will be the only four questions we have to end at 3.30 Thanks, I am addressing my question to Professor Zongola Thank you very much for your very impressive presentation I am sorry we are not there this afternoon around 12 You have a good question for the Secretary looking for the State Department You have summarized what I said But my question is this You have mentioned the aspect of security and pointing out the military problem in the government And you say that we should remove those soldiers who are not Congolese and remain with Congolese soldiers Perfect, I am 100% with you But how do you intend to do this in a situation that is in Congo where even the Minister himself the Foreign Minister I think Muamba say that we have non-generals from outside the infiltration in Army How do you intend to do this if the leadership is very poor and doesn't respond to its duty Thanks, I am going to be sure to do that Ladies and gentlemen My question, I think it is going to be just a comment and that will be in regard to what Mr Ilungas said on the Rwanda or other countries It is absolutely true that we have been neighbors and I think what he mentioned is to see this is an uncontrollable situation Geographically we cannot do anything about that because Rwanda is Rwanda, it is a neighbor and we cannot change that geographic perspective and for that I think what we have to do as Congolese is to now to have some kind of leadership which will transform those bad neighbors to become good neighbors and so if we lack the capacity to transform the bad neighbors to become good neighbors we will continue to face these serious problems whatever the situation might be so we cannot kick Rwanda or say because we have a bad neighbor they take it in another continent it will not happen so it is us now to take that responsibility to make sure that we have the capacity in the Congo to have leaders who will transform this from negative to something positive and the other second point will be we have this kind of illusion like somehow the international community the United States, France, Belgium will have the mandate to come and fix our problems and they don't have the mandate to come and fix our problems we should as Congolese take control and charge of our own country and then invite the people to come and help us but we cannot expect foreign countries to come and tell us what we should do while we have the ability to start working as Congolese to make progress ourselves and then we can get everybody else involved but we have to start forgetting this notion that the United States has the mandate to come to the Congo and fix all the problems that we have so that's my view Thank you the lady at the back Hi, Sanatari with the friends of Congo and my question has to do with political practice and culture in relation to elections this is a problem in all of Africa not only in the Congo the practice of zero sum game and most people feel that education and changing the mentality is going to help that but we may not have time for that to completely change an entire political culture in a matter of months maybe even years so how do you propose that we address that within the maybe not the coming up elections but maybe the next one to positively impact political practice and culture in Congo and the last question from Margo we'll talk about when we are addressing the issue of to mention the fact that maybe a way to do that is to build institutions back to what India positions because politically that may be the structure in which we can challenge the economy and I was hoping that Professor Tadani will also talk about decentralization how the current government will choose this to go ahead of the process because maybe they are now looking at the long term long term benefits of decentralization and what is your take on that looking at the disparity between provinces and also the political challenge that I will face that can just I will face Okay and panel in addition to these questions we have quite a few from online participants one which I'll throw generally to the panel is that it seems as if from your comments nothing is working in the DRC and the questioner wants to know if you can point to anything at all that is working in the DRC A second question for you Jack is that there is somebody here who was both a trainer and an elections monitor during the last elections and said could you tell us where the fraud you mentioned happened because the person doesn't seem to know what you are talking about and then another one for you on the elections is that the voter registration process how would you propose it gets improved Victor Yes what role does the census have in economic development of the DRC and do you see a role for ecotourism or tourism in improving the prospects one for you Professor Tebeni was that they liked your model but how would you situate it in the context of economic realities in the DRC and second where has this worked before and could you give examples there is one more which I'll throw to George at the end is that this whole discussion today is about responsive and accountable leadership based on what you've told us how could responsive and accountable leadership work in the DRC because this person is a community organizer and would like to know in practical terms what this means and there was somebody a panelist mentioned having a Truth and Reconciliation Commission and the questioner says why do you want a DRC in the Congo when we have Kinzonzi and Barazza in the kibbles that need to be strengthened instead so that's quite a bit for you to tackle and we have 15 minutes in which to do it so I'll ask for us to be as pointed and as focused as possible and maybe we'll start closest to me and work our way down to George If I may answer the first question from Mamaan, yes thanks for telling me about your son that is interesting I think the answer I can give you is basically a repeat of our friend and brother over there I may not have been as clear as I would have wanted to we've been skipping through this presentation very quickly due to time constraints but what he said is exactly what I meant in the long run, of course we didn't deserve being invaded by Randa or Uganda or anybody that is very clear but going forward and trying to secure Congo and the population we're going to have to deal with all our neighbours and make sure we have good relations but as I said in the slide that you saw we have to be able to defend our country that is a must there's no getting around that we must be able to defend our country because if you think the time the brief of, I don't know the period of time when Mobut was in power none of those countries could actually venture into the arty because they knew there was a strong army there and nobody could venture in now, does that mean that we did not have good relations with Randa and Uganda? quite the opposite, we did we had good relations with them because, well, they kept their hands off they knew that if they tried they would be bitten off quite seriously now, we have to do that but that doesn't mean to say that because we have to be strong and therefore we cannot have good relationship with our neighbours but if we reverse that we would have exactly the same situation the opposite the whole world would be crying out for Randa being persecuted by DRC which, you know the word is still a bit sore about it about the genocide in Randa so if DRC became a very strong country today and say, well, all right, it's now our turn we're going to invade Randa everybody will be up in arms and say, well, why? so we're not going to make enemies but we're going to make sure we're strong enough to defend ourselves if we need to so that's really the answer but at the same time have good relationship with all our neighbours now, I don't know if there was any other question I was particularly looking into somebody asked about the ecology the ecotourism well, I do believe that ecotourism is a good thing it provides those working in industry with a job but it's got to be controlled it's got to be regulated it can't be, you know kind of open to any old thing it's got to be controlled it's got to be done in a way that is less damaging to the environment it's less exploitative to those working in the industry it's got to be regulated so ecotourism welcome but it's got to be controlled and regulated properly I want to answer to the question of friend of Congo who asked about the culture in our countries about elections I know that there is no time for Congo now to really prepare that because education is really a long process but people can start and that's why I did propose that if the international community in the diaspora can come together and create a community of to start dealing with that question that could be a starting point and if political parties can be also founded very well they can be able to to raise their issue and to educate their population even to to carry out their activities very well because the problem is that most of political parties do not have money to do to carry out their activities so among those activities is information, it's education also and we know that Congo is the most is one of the countries where the church can play a good role because church control at least 85% of the population so if we involve the churches also that can help also to start preparing for the education and for the changing of the culture but I know that that will take a long time because it's a process I don't know if I answered your question I don't want to talk about that where they ask if there is anything which is working very well in Congo I really don't want to talk about that because I don't know I really don't know then the problem is where is it going what role is it playing in the economy that boulevard is connecting no industry to any marketplace it's an isolated piece of tarmac if you call it that way alright it's a wrong priority through the webcast question where they asked about where Baloch cast it as being filled up we all remember that after the first round of the presidential elections there were seven election commissioners or members of the election committees who were arrested because they did something which was wrong they did some fraud about the elections that was said by the Monique but we all know that according to the reports that we are having from our brothers and cousins from the ground that the elections were not transparent I even gave you the quote from the Carter Center which says that procedural flaws have shown that the elections were not very transparent that's the answer I can give to that question voter registration in fact I just because of time I did not talk about that I believe that today the voter registration if we continue in the way it is done it can take even two or three years because they don't have enough offices enough local offices they have seven local offices in each region which is very small Congo is a country which is well organized traditionally because we have traditional traditional chiefs which are very well implanted in the country we have the churches as I said if the commission the election commission can use all those infrastructures they are able to go further in the local villages and do the registration faster and it takes now the competency of the member who are also in those offices to do that registration more efficiently those are the questions which were directed to me thank you very much there was a question on how to improve the Congolese economy as you know there are conditions that are required necessary conditions before you start any investment and that's the role of any government is to make sure that the necessary conditions are made I'm talking about infrastructure communication and all of that somebody asked what is working well I don't know if they have still maintained the road but I think Kinshasa and Matadi highway was well done that I can say because it took us about 5 hours to get from Kinshasa to Matadi but once you get to Matadi then the roads are not done inside the city but they were done outside by the World Bank if they maintain it I think that was a good thing to do but at the same time those are not the roads that lead to where the production takes place some people are asking why we don't have enough food in the Congo because there is a lack of road that leads to where the farmers produce if there is no road then farmers will produce only what is needed for the subsistence and they cannot think about the market not only that the economy of the Congo will take you know will be developed only when the agriculture sector is developed I believe that 100% because that will actually set people free from the agriculture into the service sector and industry because if there is not anything to transform especially in food production to process then there will not be the export of the agricultural products not only that the government has to make sure that those farmers are well taken care of here you have government policies on how to sustain the agriculture production which employs only 2% of the US population is in agriculture but in our structure most of African countries it's about 70% of the population into agriculture until that sector is freed from most of the people living in rural areas then I don't see how our economy accepts because our economy is based on mineral and that's a wrong assumption for the whole country to just take into account only mineral part remember what happened to copper when in the 70s when the copper value collapsed and our economy collapsed again with that production another thing that farmers are taxed as we know they have to pay tax more than any other citizens in the Congo and we have militaries harassing them because of what they do in their production so those things have to be taken care of by government but still you still see most small producers taking care of themselves there was a time where I had the opportunity to visit the back Congo and then also to Katanga where I saw small business in rural areas taking care of themselves because the government would do anything they had to take care of their own and make sure that there is no production but that was not formal economy that's this dual economy as we know it there is a formal taking place and most of the people live in the formal rather than formal economy there was a question on decentralization actually the government is in the process of implementing decentralization my biggest fear is are they empowering those local institutions to be you know to sustain themselves and that's my big concern we see the production in Bujimaya for instance with the diamond that is being produced there you can visit the city there is nothing there in terms of infrastructure everything is going to Kichasa the same way I was actually in my village where people were asking me to build a road what authority I have to build a road in the Chikapa and I don't even have the means to do it because I gave a seminar at the USP to tell them how they should not focus their economy based on mineral, diamond and you see kids not going to school all generations lost young girls they don't even think about schools they just think about having babies getting married by those traffican diamonds and then there is no hope for them and even young men they are not going to school anymore so this is the fear that the government has to put more resources so that those decentralized entities will be self-sustaining and I don't see that coming into fruition there was a question on the ASPORA supporting the political opposition in the Congo we know that there is no opposition now there was a time when BEMBA was trying to face the current government but since he left we don't see really the opposition being organized we would like to see that happen how the ASPORA is going to do that up to us to discuss that in another forum the proof and reconciliation commission the reason why I say that is that we need to bring to justice those who have been involved and there is impunity and that's the tradition that's the culture and the Congo we want to see that happen and we ask the question here to the assistant secretary of the state and she mentioned that the country has to petition but who in the country is going to petition because I don't see leadership as we said that is going to bring that to the international court so I think the ASPORA I don't know if we can petition that maybe that's the thing that we need to discuss how we can coordinate that thank you ok, final brief comment from yes, just briefly the two questions asked me and on the question of neighbors the first question was about leadership in the army the statement made by foreign minister in Tambo Mamba that there are nine foreign generals in our army if Tambo Mamba knows that why is he in the government he has to resign and protest that but he is still benefiting from the government this is a problem we don't have more courage in part of political leaders in the Congo to take a stand because everybody is looking after their own interests everybody wants to be in government and to benefit from the government rather than to organize the people for a real democratic dispensation in the Congo and the other question which relates to Ben's comments on decentralization I was associated to the discussion of the first bill that the minister of interior prepared in 2007 on how to implement the constitutional provision on decentralization when you read that bill there is no real decentralization being prepared by the government the government is basically doing what special is called de-concentration rather than decentralization there is no devolution of power the government wanted to control everything so if I just the question if I just the outcome there is no decentralization and for us to have really responsible accountable leaders they have to be democratically elected and we have to change our constitution in a way elections are held for example in the last elections many people who failed to win seats the members of national assembly end up being elected provincial governors and senators while all they needed to do was to bribe the members of provincial assemblies to elect them because the governors and senators are elected by provincial assemblies so you have a say peacekeeping functions in Burundi in 1972 the genocide of 1972 in Burundi would have gotten out of hand had Congolese paratroopers not intervened and established peace people to intervene in Chad in 1981 and alongside of Nigeria played a stabilizing role in that country so this is what a country like ours is called upon we are the biggest, the richest and the most populous country in Central Africa we have a vocation to help maintain peace and bring about prosperity for the entire region of Central Africa so Rwanda and Uganda would be no threat to us if we had the wrong government if we had organized government we shouldn't fear them all we need to do is put our own house in order once but it's done everything else will be fine thank you thank you very much thank you to the panel and thank you to both panels we've had a very wide ranging discussion I think we focus on a number of practical recommendations and we've been able to ask a number of probing questions one of the things that we're going to do in the coming weeks is maybe coming months is to put all of these presentations together in a publication so that it's something that we would be able to have in both English and French that would help inform us about what the thinking of the diaspora is in this particular context and I'd really like to thank you all for your involvement I'd like to recognize in particular Joe Gelula Kitenge, Bauer, Nita and Velle who couldn't be with us today because I think she delivered the baby last week and congratulations to her but they were very instrumental in getting this organized and getting the panelists and helping shape the entire event I'd also like to thank Michelle and Margot for their excellent work they've done with logistics and Matt Pearson for his tireless efforts banging the keyboard and you wouldn't be aware of it but the red tie is in your honor he doesn't always wear a red tie and I look forward to continuing this discussion and thank you all It's very important for us as a Congolese to say thank you to the USIT thank you for your own involvement Ambassador Taylor Michelle, thank you for everything you have been doing to bring us just to play what we did today and on behalf of all the Congolese being on the web or back home just thank you and keep on moving forward to bring peace in our country