 someone sending a message on WhatsApp, which was basically a PDF of the Financial Times weekend, where the opening column has been written by a friend and colleague, Simon Cooper, who is a football writer, who has written software, electronics, and other books. So the, and the headline of the column is, it's harder to stay sane without sport. So in an effort to stay sane in this time, when there is no sport, the 420 grams crew is getting together to basically take advantage of the fact that FIFA TV is releasing all kinds of old World Cup classic games on its YouTube channel, and sharing that with us for free. So we're starting to sort of look back at some of these classic games from, you know, eras in the past 60s, 70s, 80s, and we're beginning today with the 1986 World Cup final, as episode one of this attempt of 420 grams to hold on to some of our collective sanity, do something social, get together, and all that stuff. So Jayadhi Basu and Ajut Pandita here, and it's a great sort of crew to have a Pandit, Pandit Ji, football's expert, ex-professional, current broadcaster, and Jayadhi Basu, who's a veteran journalist, who's covered many World Cups. And of course, in the course of this conversation, will give us a little, some juicy anecdotes from his personal equations with some of the legends that we've heard of and watched on, on television and otherwise. So starting off, I'll come to you Jayadhi, for a bit of context and background to the 1986 World Cup final, which was, of course, played between Maradona's, Argentina, and would you call it Lothar Matthäus' West Germany? No, no, I don't, how can you call it Lothar Matthäus' Germany? West Germany, it was just starting. Okay, okay, just cover it. Or it is Beckenwurst's West Germany. 86, football had been a team game, no doubt, but individuals have always taken the centre stage. Without individuals, football is nothing. Every World Cup belongs to one person, 58, if 54 belongs to that Hungarian great Puskas of 58 to Pele or 62 to Darycha or 66 to Bobby Chalton. If we can keep on talking like that. 66 North, 66 North, you debut? Of course, because Chalton won it, that's the reason. Yusofio's goals were great, but the Chalton's second goal against Portugal in the semi-final will always go down in the history as one of the finest from box to box goals. He cleared the ball in his own box and followed the same ball to score a goal on the other side. That was something unthinkable, but nothing can be compared with the 86 World Cup. There can be competitors to, like you said, as I talked about Chalton, you talked about Yusofio. But if I talk about 86 belongs to Maradona, I think he will come anywhere near him. No, Garry Linnaker will not say that. Garry Linnaker himself said it later on. It was called Bilardo who himself said it. When an Argentine journalist asked him what is your team for tomorrow before the quarter-finals, he said Maradona and 10 others was his famous quote. This is, but contrary to actually what perhaps Bilardo had in mind. Bilardo had in mind, basically Bilardo after Cesar Menotti was thrown out of the Argentine side after a long time. Bilardo gave a long thought to his team. If you look at it in 1983, when he first became the coach, he went all the way to Spain, spoke to Maradona and told him that he will be my captain. Let's come out and make a team. I would say he was ruthless also, Bilardo. Otherwise nobody would have thought of throwing out Pasadela. He played Luis Brown and Luis Brown finally scored his only goal in the final. His only international goal came in the final. So I would say that a lot of people say it was Maradona's World Cup. It was Maradona's World Cup. Even Bilardo said it again and again because even before the World Cup began, he started saying it because he knew this man can deliver. This man will deliver. But on the behind the scene, it was a very well planned affair on part of Bilardo. He built, very carefully built that team. One by one he picked up players. If you look at 84 Nehru Cup in India, he Bilardo brought the team to India. 84 Nehru Cup. Argentine team came to Calcutta to play the Nehru Cup. It had Kareka, it had Guru Chaga, it had Nori Pampadu, a lot of players. But many of these players were not there in the 86 team. So he was experimenting one by one. This is just an anecdote. Bilardo was a devoted Catholic. When he came to Calcutta, one of the Bengali newspapers approached him and asked him during the course of the tournament whether he would like to write a daily column for us. So Bilardo agreed and I believe he asked for a huge, huge amount. Considering those days, I believe he demanded 75,000 per day. In 1984, 75,000 per day was a huge money. And the Bengali publication, they agreed. They said we'll pay. And when they came to hand him over the cheque, he said to them, please write the cheque in the name of Nirmal Ridawej. That is Mother Teresa's home in Calcutta. So he donated the entire money to Mother Teresa and left Calcutta after that. So Bilardo, we all see that, as legend goes, we all know that Cesar Menothi was a great thinking coach. He was a communist. He was a Dadi Ola bearded coach who always smoke and talk. But Bilardo was known less than this much, I can say. As a background to the 86 World Cup, it was basically Bilardo's baby. Yeah, it was a lot of interesting things were happening, I guess, in Latin America at the time. The World Cup itself was scheduled to, or Columbia meant to host the World Cup and then they couldn't host it because of the expenses involved in hosting the World Cup. So it shifted to Mexico and then the Mexico City earthquake of course happened just a year before the World Cup. So that led to some trouble for Argentina itself. I mean, there was the backdrop of the war with Britain and the Falklands, the change in government after 76 many years of upheaval, military dictatorship, thousands of people disappearing, all of that going on, economic turmoil. And in all of that, so like the football meant, and we keep saying this, it's a bit of a cliche that we use quite often, but to the fans and the Argentinians who were supporting this team at the 1986 World Cup, the football meant much more than just what was happening on the pitch. But at the same time, what was happening on the pitch was a very valuable sort of release from the other stuff going on, neoliberalism, Operation Condor, all of that stuff that was going on in South America, Latin America at the time. So we'll get to the football now. And of course, we are skipping past the the game with England. I think too much has been made out of that game with England. It's a bit ahead, man. He hit the ball with his hand and scored a goal. I mean, it's still talking about that. If anything, it should be spoken about that game versus England. A, England at the international level has never been a good team. Okay. And till date, they continue to prove me right. This last team that was the semi-final, its reality will be known in the next World Tournament if this group stays together and does something or the other. But the real thing from that game was the goal, which he hit with his hand, he took the ball and then it started after that. But that, of course, was the game versus England. But you need to realize that. And just to add to what Jedeep said, this was peak Maradona. Peak Maradona. Now for someone like me who's only heard about Maradona, who's never really seen him play in person, who's never seen a Pele play in person, to go back and watch that final versus West Germany, I mean, I felt so good because I felt like it had taken me back to a football of a different era, which was football of a different era. But the pace, the style, the way people would approach each other, it was completely different. Even so much so, when you start watching the game, what really caught my eye was the old school graphics when they were putting out the team sheet. The old school graphics were there. Yeah, everything about it, man. Like the kids, you know, those the short shorts and the logo of the 86 World Cup with India, where India is just about on the fringe. So, yeah, the whole scene was, it's quite like it definitely sets you in a different frame completely. Yeah. So, let's start, man. Let's start with kickoff, I guess, and the early moments of the game. And what struck you guys from that build up? Because we said, watch the whole game, of course. The full game, by the way, for those of you who are not yet aware, is available on FIFA TV and we'll put up a link. So, yeah, guys. While making the logs, I think, Jairi sir, in tandem, both me and Siddhan, the first thing he said, the first thing that really caught my eye was the first minute, he ball throw in. And suddenly, the commentator says, referee is asking player to pull up his socks. Literally. Because that time, FIFA had made it a rule that you have to come out, turned out properly, put them in proper socks. And what was the reasoning behind this rule? I think shirts had to be tucked inside all those things back that time. I don't know why, but one doesn't need to do all those things. And one which was followed properly? You can't follow it always. You can't keep a track of 22 players, whether shirts are in and out. Even nowadays, there are several players whose shirts come out after 10-15 minutes. Referee, sometimes tell them, please put it in. But while running, you cannot do it. You have played football, you know. This took me back to school days. In school, the referee didn't tell the children of the school to put their shirts in, put their socks on, what are you doing? You are becoming a star, you are becoming a hero. What are you doing here? Put your shirt on, put your socks on. And to happen in a world of finals, that's the first thing that really caught my eye. I said, wow, what a great thing. Hey, I think, and if you look at the general demeanor of the referees, I don't know, maybe it had to do with the mahal at the time where there was a little bit of, there was a lot of, I don't know, desire to control, make sure that, you know, political statements were not made on the air because this was being broadcast all over the world. And people were concerned that players who are extremely popular might come out and take off their shirts and write something down. So, I think there is a bit of that attitude that keep players in check. If you look at the body language of the ref in that final, the Brazilian referee who's officiating that game, it's very stern. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, I think because FIFA was extra careful after the quarterfinals, because what the Indonesian referee did was a huge, huge problem. And I think Argentina was not at all happy with the Brazilian referee. They didn't want a Brazilian referee in the final. So all put together and Maradona's reputation was met by that time. What all he can do to fool the referee in the final. So they were, I think, extra careful about him. That could be one of the reasons. But straight away, if you saw the game, straight away, Lothar Mathias was given man-marking duties to Diego Maradona. Now I'll tell you why I shed some light on this topic. I think last year, Lothar Mathias had come to Bombay as part of Bundesliga's plan to promote. So he had come for something for Borussia Dortmund. And as luck would have it, they sent me to interview him. So I went and interviewed him. And in that, he was talking about his battles with Maradona because the press was asking him. And he said, I used to really look forward to playing versus Maradona as tough as they used to be. And as tough as I was against him. Because if you see in the game as well, as soon as he comes, he says welcome tackle in the game. It happens to me that if I'm marking someone, and I know that this guy is strong, I'll go and hit him. Straight away, no matter if it's a ball or not, no matter what happens. So that he mentally and psychologically knows that I'm the one here. I'm not going to let anything go. Yes, hello, I'm here. But Mathias in that interview always said that whenever I would hit Maradona, he was not one to react. Fall down, get up, and move. Because somehow throughout his career, people had always taken that approach to him because he was such a skillful player that I think if he was always going to keep on getting up and reacting, he would be using so much of his energy that he wouldn't be using half of the energy in the game and going towards that goal then. Yeah, see, Fundit, Arjun, the thing is that there are two things into it. First, what happened to Maradona in 82 we saw, even in 83. By that time, he was hacked down to the ground every minute. What the Bhucharov Bilbao did with him, what Kochia did with him, we all know. But I think, again, this comes to Bilardo. Bilardo's credit. Bilardo made him believe that losing the temper won't give him back anything. I am giving you an example in India. In 95-96, till the 95-96 season, Baichu Bhutia was a very fine player in the making, but he was also very temperamental. He had often been shown red card, yellow card. If you look at 96-97 season, when he played for JCT in that great first national football league, he emerged top scorer with 14 goals and without a yellow card. Because Sukhvinder Singh, he keeps on telling me Sukhvinder Singh till this day that my planning was to make Baichu believe that he can play with the ball. He need not to hit anyone. To tone down his temperament was my biggest challenge. Same with Maradona. And if you look at ballplayers, ballplayers don't hit too much because their concentration is on the ball. Because they want the ball with them. Because they know if they get the ball, they can do a lot of things. Without the ball, they cannot do anything. So it started in the very first game. If you remember in the first game against South Korea, Maradona was hit again and again. But he didn't react even once. So again, it is Bilardo's credit. That he made him believe that he should keep his temper in check and it will deliver the goods. And it exactly happened. And if you look at Lothar Mathos' thing, what he was saying Arjun, and they are coming to the second point, that Germany had done it before. In 1770, Beckenbauer himself did it with Bobby Charlton. He checked him. In 1774, Barty Vox did it with Johan Cruyff. He was his marker in the final. And again, Beckenbauer put Lothar Mathos for Maradona. But it also had a disadvantage for Germany. Because Lothar Mathos is also a very creative player he was. Till it became 0-2, Lothar Mathos was concentrating mostly on Maradona. After it became 0-2. But first half he was winning the battle, sir. First half he was winning the battle versus Baradona. No, what I am saying, he was winning the battle against Maradona. But where Mathos had other qualities, which Germany could not take advantage of. Mathos was also a very, very creative man in the midfield. He used to give very good passes, create moves. But Mathos was given a duty. His hands were full. So Germany missed that till it was 0-2. After it was 0-2, Germany had nothing to lose. Mathos also went all out. But Ali, why I was bringing it up right now is because for both of you, when you see the offfield persona of Maradona, and for all of you, if you haven't seen the film that Asif Kabadia has made of Maradona's time in Napoli, then do go watch it because there's some crazy archival footage, interviews that will give you insight into Maradona the person. And so then the person is so volatile and so... He's a confrontative kind of guy, at least from what you saw off the field. And when you're like that, and then suddenly you come on the field, and when someone is taking you down every two minutes, it seems a little strange how is this guy suddenly made that switch to come into that zen-like quality of not reacting, looking down, getting up and moving on. That's what I said. But that's again, again, this is the job of the coach to make his best player believe that don't react. Play your own game. And it exactly happened. Starting from the very first game against South Korea, Maradona was in incredible form, isn't it? Till the last. And it wasn't that he didn't sort of try to buy things, you know. So when those tackles came in, the things that Maradona did with his body and his body language, in order to both influence the crowd as well as the referee. I mean, he both bought fouls as well as sold referees on many things that may have been otherwise 50-50. So that guy who was there and while you were saying that he may have been a bit zen-like, where he was focused on carrying on from whatever happened. But at the same time, his mind was running so fast that in that instant, look at the number of free kicks the guy has won through the course of the tournament. Because he knew he was that talented and so many people were going to use this tactic against him, in training alone individually also, he would practice how to roll over, how to fall in momentum. That guy falls on momentum if you see him fall. So he takes momentum half the, it's like in free running, right? Yeah, that's not the impact. The whole concept is when you jump, you jump, the impact doesn't come in one area and it's distributed all over your body. The same way, if you see him in Maradona fouls, he moves and he falls on the same spot, so he takes momentum and moves forward. Yeah, because of his height, his centre of gravity is also a bit fine. He falls as well, so not like a six footer, he doesn't fall like that. He knows how to, and he had a terrific body in 1986. His super fitness, he had a perfect body. You look at the acceleration, the change of pace that he's capable of. Change of pace and acceleration, two key things. I mean, that's final, that's final go. You're just sitting with your jaw like on the floor and say, oh, what's going on here? Of course, and then in addition to that, you have the touch, the vision, all of those things. Like the scales on the ball, yeah. Apusko, Apusko, last pass, Tekhona, he was, he was, his back was towards, towards Purushaga. Yeah, Purushaga. And he never knew that Purushaga, I don't know how he knew that Purushaga will move from left to right. Only from his peripheral vision, he just lobbed the ball. Ball for him. It was, and I don't know whether Purushaga may have called. He must have called. I don't know. But his, his back was towards Purushaga. But initially, and, but for, for that to happen and we'll get to it later. I thought Germany was to be blamed as well. But we'll talk about that in a little while. The way they were going so ahead that means you take as high an off-side line I'll put two runners who will come from behind. I'll always have the advantage of lobbing a ball from somewhere and breaking your off-side line. But if you start the game or you see there's a distinct difference and this for me is something that is not seen in modern day football right now because everyone is playing that everyone is training in a certain systematic way. Everyone is moving in a certain systematic way. In that 86 final, there was a complete difference in the way two teams were playing. One was playing a very South American centered around an individual and people are making runs. You know, and there was no systematic runs. So Purushaga made a run to get that winning goal from the right and Purushaga also made a lot of runs from the left and so on for Valdano and people like that. But for Germany, if you see a lot of the runs that were happening is that the right full-back is overlapping the right midfielder and the right midfielder is coming in. So it's very systematic European in a manner of way. And then the other side you have a South American side with what they were doing was as soon as they were getting the ball like in modern day football if you walk with the ball Sir, what are you doing? Have you gone mad? Everyone is walking there calmly, people are crowding around in the center. Argentine was playing the slow one-twos. No one was jumping on each other. Everyone is holding back. And then when that one moment comes, they made the acceleration tries to push for goal. That's what I mean. Look, that 3-2-5 system has been used a lot before. But in a World Cup, in such a big stage, 3-2-5 system was being used. That was the first time I think Bilardo did it. But if the system got credentials, mother, it established its credentials, it was because of 1986 Argentine team. And he chose perfect players for the system. That is something. How did he choose the players for each and every position he chose? He chose players. That really, really, mother, it's amazing that for 3 years, I think he, for each and every position he chose his players after giving it a lot of thought and of course keeping his captain in that. Yeah, sir. The game plan was pretty evident that as soon as you get the ball, you find Maradona. And as soon as Maradona finds the ball, we want 2-3 people making runs. Simple as that. Because it's Aadmika's vision. He'll find you and he'll put you in on goal. Exactly. Exactly. Moving on, sir, in the 22nd minute, the first goal came, Argentina. However, as much praise as we may throw on the coach in Alcalos Bellardo, in the first half it was Germany. That was pretty much calling the shots. Argentina was looking a little haphazard. They were making a few 4-0s into goal. But I'm not surprised that the first goal came from a set piece. Because it didn't look like Argentina was doing something on the field. Maradona was completely off-sync in the first 20-30 minutes. So Maradona was off-sync. Argentina was also looking off-sync. And thus came the first goal from a set piece play. True, but Argentina wasn't a role in 1996 actually. Perhaps they were so confident. So they knew that let it happen like that. We'll keep on doing it. And I think, Argentina, every player was thinking. Every player was thinking in his mind. How to overcome this thing. Look, again, I'm coming to Bellardo. It was a team that had all the players thinking players side. You saw Norip and Pompadou. Maradona, you left them. You saw Norip Pompadou. You saw Luis Brown. You saw Valdano. You saw Guru Chaga. All of them went on to become good coaches. All of them went on to become fine coaches. Valdano, you left them. Valdano was a top-class coach. Even others. That means he made them think. He only chose players who can think on the ground. He didn't want one hit-and-run players. So he was perhaps thinking of, he or the players were perhaps thinking that Germany won't be able to hold on to it for a long time. Let's keep our arsenal ready. And in a more organized manner, let us take it as much as possible. Then we'll go round. It was ironic that for the success that Mathias had achieved versus Maradona in the first 22 minutes, it was a foul by Mathias on Maradona on the right side that led to that foul. Set-piece, ball put in, and Argentina take the first goal. Are you pausing here for the goal? No, you can't pause for the goal. You'll have to run it as a screen, or else they'll copyright you. Yeah, so I mean, and we talk about this quite often about goalkeeping and decision making. Because the keeper with jumping out of coming off his line, hoping to grab that ball, completely missing the ball. And then leaving it wide open for, as Jaydeep mentioned, Jose Luis Brown with mixed Irish and Argentinian heritage, scoring his first and only goal for Argentina in a World Cup final. What's the guy's name? Lilian Turram in the semi-final of the 1998 World Cup, many years later, would go on to do. But yeah, so goalkeeping error, great ball in from Maradona, obviously. The whip on that ball, I guess he also figured where the keeper might decide to come and grab the ball. And then the ball wasn't there for Schumacher, who was considered probably one of the top goalkeepers in the world. At the time, yeah. But you know, I was also loving the commentary, by the way. There was a certain relaxed nature to the commentary, and the way the sound was coming out, because it was a little distorted. Mirko, the ball was very pleasant. It's like this new age thing of loving final sound, right? Which is coming back into fashion. That kind of sound was a little bit of a crackle. And the commentators, if you were noticing, they were not holding back. You said you didn't say anything politically, but when it came to criticising the players, I'm again talking about someone not doing something. So like, but when, of course, the goalkeeper made that error of judgment, they kept on criticising him for the next five minutes of the game. That this error of judgment has led to the first goal in the World Cup final. No, the criticising, so commentators criticising players, players seem to be the only party, which commentators are still allowed to criticise. You don't talk about crickets in today's world. We are not talking about crickets. We are not talking about crickets. Crickets have different scenes, because they are the players of BCCI, and the commentators of BCCI have different scenes. But if you look at the rest, we are not talking about ISL, because there is a different scene there as well. No, ICC World Cup is different. You got a letter from ICC. No, no, they are talking about crickets. Crickets have a different story. But if you look at football, criticising referees is not allowed nowadays. The system or the organisers are not allowed to criticise them. So the only party that you can really criticise still, for making mistakes, for missing a goal, for play-acting, for whatever else they might be doing on the pitch, are the players. So it's interesting, and maybe we can talk a little bit about this, because the 86 World Cup also was the big television World Cup, when Eduardo Galliano said it, where stadiums became gigantic television studios. In fact, even Maradona and the Argentinians, I think were highly critical of this, that some of the key games were played at noon under the blazing sun in Mexico, because noon in Mexico would make it prime time viewing for European audiences to catch those games. And that came in for heavy criticism. It happened in USA also. It happened in 1994 also. Yeah, then going forward, yeah. So what I was saying is, this is the first time perhaps that because of television, all of these things came into play as well. So that way it was quite a seminal World Cup there, from Mexican waves, which is also probably a television phenomena. If you don't have any intention of waving in the stadium, if you don't have those cameras, how do you feel about showing them? So yeah, definitely the commentators, I mean, it's also like it was very different from, I was glad that there was no England in the World Cup final, because listening to English commentators, It's like India Cricket only. Yeah, but England has only won 6-6 after that tone. No. Jadeep sir, but since we're talking on the commentator, he said a very nice thing in the halftime about Maradona, because what was happening? First 35 odd minutes, Maradona was not able to do anything. So he was trying to do too much, right? He was trying to build about 2-3 players, but Mathais was coming, and Mathais he was getting the better of, then someone else was coming and taking him down. So and then just I think 5 minutes before halftime, what Maradona had started doing was, he realized that he was going to attack me very quickly. So getting the ball first touch, moving in and getting in his team into the game, right? So as the Argentina was walking off at halftime, commentator says, Maradona's biggest challenge in this World Cup final is to find a balance between being a team player and his individual brilliance. I thought that was such a nice thing he said, and that is such a tough month, because when you're so, so talented that you know you can go past at least 5-6 players, if my day, my momentum is with me. But then the other thing is, if I try to cut 5-6 players every time, then what will my 9 players do? Then they will sit there. Yes, that's true, but he has been doing it against England, like Valdanos, or who said, Guruchaka said or Valdanos said, that he kept on waiting for the ball to come, but it never came, and he, Valdanos, and he says he's glad it never came. Yeah, very sure. I think NVK also made a good one, sarcastically he said, that he had passed in his half. He said that if he had not scored that goal, we would have been shocked. Valdanos said that I kept on waiting, but he will give it to me, he will give it, and he never kept it. And I'm glad he never kept it. I think Valdanos and Maradona were not two players who were the best of friends. They didn't really get along. I think Maradona didn't like Valdanos so much as a friend player. Even I think Guruchaka was not a great friend of Maradona. But Valdanos said the best thing. He wasn't a good teammate. But see, I think they were playing in Colombia, and in Colombia, they lost a match to National Club or somebody that was before the World Cup. And there was a lot of problems in the team. Then they had a three-hour session. Valdanos had a three-hour session with the players, and they trashed out a lot of things. And they decided not to play any more friendly game. Let's go to Mexico straight away. And some people said that the team I've been in Mexico a bit undercooked. Some people felt. But later it was proved that they were right, that they didn't play. Well, when you win the Cup, everything is right, of course. But I liked the Valdano comment. Valdanos said that the goal Maradona scored against England, I can describe it much better than Maradona. But I cannot score, of course, like it. So, that way, when you have so many great players in the team, you must be having some problems of the other. Somewhere. But how to manage it is the biggest challenge, isn't it? Maybe in the Indian cricket team also, I get to hear, I don't know how to write, that a lot of players have problems with a lot of players. They don't like each other. But it doesn't matter when you have so many... That's a team, sir. Team dynamics are pretty much the same everywhere. Humans, we have 11 humans vying for a spot, and 11 humans, and one is standing out, two are really standing out in a performance. You're bound to have ego issues, you're bound to have people talking behind closed doors, or you're sort of letting loose, and whatever you think you're telling someone else, that's what happens. In team dynamics, there's a small team, a big team. It's the same thing. And as far as Maradona, I've always heard, he's not been a very liked teammate. Purely because outside of the team, during the game, he's doing what he's doing, and then you have another guy, who's probably the 7th best player in the country, who's saying, he's taking the ball, he's doing it, he doesn't pass the ball to me. So then he's bound to get a little jealous, and angry with the guy, man. And off the field also, whatever he was doing, not coming for training, or his late night dress in Italy, and so on. So I'm not surprised that Maradona was not a very liked teammate. Though he was probably the most loved footballer in the world ever. But as far as being a teammate, I don't think he was liked very much. I don't know, it's just, I don't know. Jairi probably knows more about the players at that time, and what they had to say about Maradona. But I played, he signed you. I will give you one small incident, which I shared with Siddhan the other day, when we were talking. In 2010 World Cup, the Argentine team was based in Trittoria. They were holding the press conference every day at Trittoria, and it was under the, under the, it was a room under the stairs, a different type of, like under Ambedkar stadium, the press conference was going on, such a type of, it's a bit big, of course. Not too big, of course. So Maradona used to press conference every day. So he was the Argentine coach at that time. So I remember one day, one fellow asked a question from behind, and he asked it in Italian. The weather, Maradona and his teammates, and his other staff will sit. That place used to be kept under a barrier, with a rope, nothing else. Maybe a couple of chairs were put in front of him, so that nobody can approach him immediately. So from behind, he asked it in Italian. So I don't know what he asked. I can't. Maradona looked at him, and he jumped out of his chair, he jumped out of, jumped over the barricade, and, and chossed through the journalist, and went and hugged that, hugged that journalist, and he was, he looked so happy. He started asking him something. So nobody could understand what was happening. So later on, it was found that journalist who asked that question was a 1986 Napoli third goalkeeper. So he was meeting Maradona after a long time. He was a third goalkeeper. He never played a match, and later became a journalist. So Maradona was so happy looking at his, at his teammate that he threw all caution to win. And it was so spontaneous that I really liked it, because of his, because of his, I could, I could guess that he, that that he's smiling. It's not artificial. He's genuinely happy looking at his, at his old colleague. So you do that further, retrates my point, sir, what I'm trying to say. See, if, if Joe, Joe, there's no doubt about that. The Maradona is someone who thinks from the heart and not from the head, right? But that person is the third goalkeeper. I am talking about a player who's in the playing 11, who's seeing your playing 11 player do that. The psyche is such that if you see another guy, try to act like he's away from this world. He's completely different, and everything runs according to him. Joe playing 11 player, who's competing with him day in, day out for a spot in the playing 11. Somewhere, somewhere in his house, in his heart, there will be something in his heart. There will always be something. And they'll always refer to him as a bad teammate, not a happy teammate. It's the same thing with Zlatan Ibrahimovic right now. The smallest of things. There is time in LA Galaxy, for as successful as it was. He's hitting a big goal in the LA Galaxy. And he goes out in the press and he speaks the way he does, talks the talk, walks the walk as well. But now, one year since moving on from LA Galaxy, within the space of, I think, four weeks or something, at least five players have come out. And started criticising him. He was too big for his boots. He used to say too much. He used to push us around. And that is the general psyche of a first 11 player. Ben talking about another first 11 player. Actually, we won't even ever know the names of those five players. Only thing is that I don't think Maradona has ever been accused of such a thing. Even Valdano, who never liked Maradona. He said he was a great player, but his current life, he's trying to put up a show. He's leading it like a show, which will not do any good to him. The only thing Valdano had to say about Maradona, that is also about the current Maradona. Yeah, of course. But he never criticised his colleagues in front of others. At least not in 86, if you remember. And he never tried to bring down his visibly inferior colleagues in front of others. Others also, which I think. Many of his colleagues were visibly inferior to him. And it's like writing. You write one lakh somewhere. One, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, seven, seven digits, zeros. And you remove that one. That rest of the seven will have left with no meaning. So Maradona was like that in that team, perhaps. In the Napoli film that Asif Kabadia had made, and in that show, he's getting ready for the 86 World Cup as well. And he works with his Italian trainer, personal Italian trainer, who he has, and who he places a lot of faith and trust in. So he opens up to him. Because generally, what happens here, that bigger personality sometimes, because so many people are trying to get a piece of you, you shut yourself out. And you only open yourself up to a few people who you believe in or you have faith in. So he opened himself up to him. And that trainer said, there are two sides to Maradona. There is one Diego, the young boy who loves his football, who's very loving, who's very passionate, and who cares about everyone in his family circle. And then there is a Maradona, which is this avatar that has been painted, not just by the world, but also by Maradona. And the partying, the going out. And so the two, he's always trying to bring the two together. But somehow the Maradona has always been overpowering the Diego, probably post 86, 87. Because then what happens is that you are such a big player and you are loved a lot, but then started the scandals, the cocaine and the doping and so on. So then you sort of develop an attitude, it's me against the world. And then he keeps giving it to him. In fact, if anyone wants to watch a very nice Maradona film on Netflix, there's a film of what he was doing, coaching a team in Mexico. And he spent a lot of time with those boys. And so these are boys who are like, it's basically like saying, Bhai Chung Bhutya is playing with me and Sadant, right? And he's coaching us. So it's that gap, that bigger gap, right? And then you have someone like Maradona there and the love that he was showing to those boys and the way he was pumping them all in the dressing room and the way he was really, really motivating them to go out and do well. And he was pretty successful in his first year. It's a really nice watch, if anyone wants to go there. I've forgotten the name of the film. But it's on Netflix, you'll get it. So with this, Referee will raise the VCD to play, but 45 minutes plus the injury time is over. Unless our idea is that we'll do a 90-minute commentary on this 90-minute game. We need to go ahead and increase the car. Bhai, can I just bring it up to a point where 2-0? So you're thinking, Argentina has won this game, done and dusted. Argentina is taking the world cup home. But then with about seven, eight minutes, if you pulled it back to 2-0, I think the advantage is with Germany, right? West Germany, the advantage is totally with West Germany. Within 10 minutes. Yeah, so I was so surprised that they were playing such a high line. So if I am the coach and I'm not saying that I'm Beckenbauer, what is he doing? I'll just put it there. But I'm just saying, if Beckenbauer is the coach, you've done 2-0 there. You have 7 minutes left and you're going to the penalties, sir. I'll wait for the penalties and I'll stay behind. Sir, the goal that Gurush Agar scored, did you see what the German defence was? They were right near the half-line. But Germany was going for an offside trap at that time. Yeah, why were you going for the offside trap at 6 minutes to go? And you've already equalised. Because they were afraid of one man. That is the reason. They were actually afraid of that man. Still that man. That was the reason. That's why they were going for an offside trap. It's strange because then if you take it down to penalties, that one man can only contribute one goal. That boils down to the other nine people as well and your goalkeeper. So I was a little baffled by that decision. Yeah, that is there. But again, they were all afraid of him at that time. Even sitting in 2020, we can't perhaps imagine how much scared they were of him. Because only four days back what he has done is something amazing. If you can do it again, instead of 6-3, if you can dribble 3, that is enough, isn't it? So that was perhaps the reason why they were not taking any chance of going for what you said. Yeah, the offside trap. Offside trap. Man-marking situation, basically. But brother, just imagine, I need the pressure on someone like a Bhutushaka. See, there are about three minutes remaining in a game. You get a ball at your feet and you've taken a shot and you did well. He's played him in for a half-line. He's ran with the ball. So he's had time to think. He's going in on goal. And then with three minutes to go, he's probably attacking the goal for that one final shot that could win the World Cup. And he placed it perfectly fine. Because when you're shown in football, if you're going from the right, he's hitting the ball from the left. Through Schumacher's legs, as he was going on. Yeah, through the legs as he's coming out, he's perfectly finished. I mean, both the finishes, if you look at... Because a few of the German defenders was thinking that he will give it to Valdano, which he didn't give. Valdano, I think, was shouting from the ball on. No, it was Valdano who scored the previous one, which was from the opposite side across Schumacher in the other corner. Another perfect finish. Again, when there was time for him to think about where to put the ball, whether to go near post, far post, across the goalkeeper or the other way. Perfect finish. I mean, and remarkable under that precious situation, which of course none of us perhaps will feel that kind of pressure. It's massive pressure. It's massive pressure. World Cup final. And a World Cup final where you are coming from a place where you are coming where it supposedly means so much to you and where you have the greatest player in the world. Finally trying to establish himself as the greatest player in the world. It means so much to your fans. And you're playing against the West Germany team, which is in the final for the second time on the tour, trying to establish itself as perhaps one of the greatest teams to play this game over the ages. So all of those things and in those circumstances to have, I mean, and this with like a couple of minutes to go on the clock. It just shows how, what level like Jairi was saying, the confidence and the kind of like mental level that this Argentina team was at, just something else. But also I want to just bring up quickly, whether it was especially in the first half, you're saying like Maradona didn't have or wasn't able to do much for large stretches of the game. You look at the intensity with which the Germans were pressing on the ball. Right? When whoever had the ball, it took a couple of seconds only for the man to be on, like boom, boom. And some of the tackles that were going in, even when you thought that the Germans were beaten, suddenly there would be this tackle that would come in last minute, tackle last this tackle, but perfectly timed. So I just wanted to bring up something from Shuvaka's book actually, which came out a couple of years later. And you have it? It brings out the dark side of the game. The book is called one-side. Let me just bring it up on one-side. So the book is called The Starting Whistle. Basically, he talks about generally like, and many players, I think you had brought up earlier the 1954 World Cup, right? And so Puskas had spoken then, because Germany had really gone at the Hungarians in that time, and Hungary at that time, that team was considered perhaps one of the greatest teams who ever played the game, at least up until that point. And he spoke of the German dressing room smelling like a sea of poppies, you know, indicating what they were doing in their other time. And Shuvaka has talked about how the German players were given injections and pills and large doses of mysterious mineral water, which gave them diarrhea, and questioning whether the team represented Germany or the German chemical industry and stuff like they were given sleeping pills to help them rest better. And Shuvaka says that I preferred beer over sleeping pills because beer helps me sleep better. So things like that. But the sort of conversation around dope testing, anabolic steroids at that time, and this German squad was also quite a sort of, it was something that was being talked about. So that was a bit of a digression. And after that, by the way, when Shuvaka came up with this, after that, he not only was kicked out of the German squad, but also I think he was at Cologne at the time. So Cologne maybe he spot me, and eventually he had to go to Turkey to play football. So obviously there was something there as well, because if there wasn't, then perhaps he would have just been laughed at and it wouldn't have been much more than that. But yeah. I have no idea, Schumacher has written a book here. 86 World Cup, on the whole I would like to say one thing, which I should have said at the start only, that 86 for too many of us, if you look at the Indian side, 86 World Cup made what World Cup is today. Before that, World Cup was not, I won't say that was big, that was big, very big, but not to the people from our side. If you pick up even 82 World Cup, which I think Italy won, Italy won. That Paolo Rossi scored lots of goals. The great Brazilian team lost in the quarterfinals. So if you look at 82 World Cups, if you pick up, because I am from that generation, so I know, if you pick up the newspapers of 1982 World Cup, Indian newspapers during 1982 World Cup, you will find the coverage was, I won't say they were bad, but there was nothing splashy about it. I still remember the highest-selling deli in the capital had a good DC double column story when Brazil lost out and the lead was something else. It was from the 86 World Cup. It really caught the imagination of the people and for that, that one man will get all the credit because television also came at that time. Yeah, television. 86 World Cup also made a huge impact on our side of the world. Before 86, World Cup was not that big in India. We all knew vaguely that it is a big tournament. Oh, Brazil is a great team. Pele was a great player, all these things. But it really, we really realized it in 86. It in Indian context or in the subcontinent context, if you look at it, that was the World Cup, which really took us to the next level. Our football was like playing the Asian Games and the Olympics. That India did not take part in the World Cup qualifiers till 1985. Itself is evidence that neither of our officials nor our players or the fans took much notice of the World Cup. We all thought, oh, playing the Olympics and the Asian Games are a very big thing. So that way we should, the credit goes to Maradona. We should remain indebted to him and the Argentine side. Of course, that he took us to the next level. We realized what football is all about. What professional football is all about. Before they focus on the amateur side of the game. Amateur side. Obviously, it's a good one because we often talk about what happened between 1960s and, let's say, the 80s and stuff. Because 86 was a World Cup. Of course, like you said, Korea was there. Iraq was at the World Cup for the first time. So Asian countries were beginning to have some kind of an impact on the global game. And India was, as we discussed at the beginning, if you look at the logo, on the extreme periphery, barely, it's on the curve. So, barely, we would have said that. Siddharth, we never realized. 1966, North Korea played the quarter-finals. They beat Italy. They beat Italy of all teams and was leading 3-0 against Portugal. And then you say you took over. And in 1966, this is 1966, 70 in Asian Games. We finished third. We won the Gronj Madhu. But we still didn't realize the greatness of the 1966 North Korean teams. It didn't make an impact on us. Only in the 80s, when Maradona made such a huge splash on the football world, that we then realized that what World Cup could be all about. So, in today's context, Siddharth said, we will play it in 2026 again. It's important because you are Maradona and you are giving credit to the Argentine spot. And also, the proliferation of television or the access to broadcast technology. That's also important because in the early 80s, I suppose, when in India it started to really spread and by the 86 World Cup, I suppose people had more access to television than ever before in this country. And in today's context also, this is important because, I mean, for those of like television anchors and in these times when information is so critical and everyone is looking for information as to what to do, what not to do and how to sort of behave and deal with the situation that the virus has created all over the world. The power that these television anchors and television has as a medium. And why it's so important to sort of give correct and verified information and sort of portray some of the things like this Argentine squad did for Indians and showed them what football is all about, showed us what football is all about. Similar sort of sense. I enjoyed it because I think this is a great series, man. Because you know, all my life, we are saying that football is very important because it's so much love. But before the 90s, I can't recall a single game. And I mean, I can recall the highlights. I can recall someone scoring a goal. I can recall hand of God. I can recall Pele doing something. But I full 90 minutes. And for all the people who are watching our show, this is a series. We promise is better. So don't go by promises, but actually judges by action. But the first episode is here. The second episode is expected to come next week. And Jaydeep sir and I were talking while your internet went on lockdown. So we were saying that we'll talk about that Dutch team that played total football 1974. So we'll try finding a game on FIFA TV on YouTube and hopefully analyze that game and then come together again, talk about total football, Johan Cruyff and so on. Yeah, for sure. And so, I mean, we were saying that like, or many people commentators have said, especially those belonging to older generations, older school, that 86 was perhaps the last great World Cup. And after that, because of the similar reasons because of television and because of, like, like we're talking about standardization of players, you know, everyone plays the same way. Yeah, supreme athletes. Brilliant goes away and it all becomes about system and physical training that you're saying, or supreme athletes. And in fact, I think what, yeah, anyway, you can do the quotes and all later. But yeah, so maybe from 86, then we can start going backwards. And like you said, next week and pick up 74 and thank you. And I guess a big shout out to FIFA TV in this time for giving us access to some of these great games, great moments from history and allowing us to watch actually the entire sort of duration of the 90 minutes or two hours, actually, because we're pre game Can I say something before we leave to all the young kids who are watching? In a 90 minute game, stamina, I don't have stamina these days. I'm looking at it. So most people see highlights or see the best goals or see the best past compilation. So basically, you're seeing the wow moments in television. You term them as the wow moments, right? But bring back that stamina watching a 90 minute game and see the moments that led to that wow moment. Then your understanding of football, your understanding of a player of system, everything will move up a level, man. So Abhi Ka Time Hai Vele Bathe Mein Ghar Ke Baahar Jaani Sakti Uttar Bhattak Kittna Garoge 50 kar loge, 60 kar loge, 70 kar loge, 90 kar loge if you're the end of the pace. But usse nahi jaap haugana. So ghar batke ek match dekhon, hafta mein 2 mukabale dekhon, 90, 90 minute game. And then you watch your football analysis in the way you pick up things on the field. Fair enough. And while we're making promises, we might as well say we have Jaydeep on the show, also a repository of sort of Indian football gyan. So we should pick up some of these games from, there are some games of Indian football also classic games that are up on YouTube. And maybe bring those into the conversation every once in a while. So mix it up. Kabi kabhi work up ki baat kar liye, kabi kamaare kuch superstars bhi utte thi. Onke baare hum thoda baat kar liye. Done. Teeke. Chonoji, on that note let's wrap this up. Thank you guys for watching. Thank you guys for all your insights, sir. We forgot to talk about your interview with Diego Maradona. But we will do that. We'll talk sometime. We'll bring that up because humaise sath bathe hain. Shucks. Only thing I remember he said that I will take only 10-15 seconds. He said when I scored the goal with my hand, I was so scared I kept on telling my colleagues, come come, hug me hug me. So that the referee cannot. Fair enough. All right, on that note we leave you guys to it. And the next episode for 20 grams will be up next week. Stay tuned for that. Follow us on news click sports on Instagram. It's a new page for all updates on whatever we're doing in cricket, in football and other sports as well. Thanks for watching.