 We're going to kick things off. Yeah, yeah. Cool. All right, folks, welcome to the continuing webinar. We're going to go through a bit of a basics on SSI. So sorry, identity, decentralized identity. And Christine is going to do much of this. I'm going to talk a little bit about some of the trends we're seeing. We're engaged pretty deeply with a few projects right now. We want to make sure that we're sharing out what it is that we're learning. So we get an idea of what's going on out there. Christine, do you want to take it away? Yeah, sure. So thanks for coming. We're going to go through a few things here. Our first part that I'll talk about, I'll go through like a real world scenario just to help people understand how moving from a physical to a digital wallet has its advantages. I'm going to do a breakdown of a couple of conspiracy theories that are floating around. Darryl is going to talk about some trends. And then if you have any questions, we'll go through those. So really our goal here today is we just want to explore how providing a convenient and secure way for people and businesses to interact online. We want to help you understand the benefits of adopting the digital ID system just to take control of your own digital world. So the real world scenario that we'll go through. This is something that almost everybody can relate to. It's going to make it a little bit easier for you to envision how adopting the digital ID system can make things more seamless and efficient and just allowing us to take back control of our data. So we have multiple times on a business trip or really any trip where you're going to have to fumble through your wallet and awkwardly hand over a driver's license credit card or really any identity document. You have to provide your name, phone number, other personal identification, multiple times at each point. And then what about if you lost your driver's license or forgot it while you're on your trip or your bank card, your passport, I mean, it happens with your digital ID system. You only have to keep track of one thing, which is your phone and we're all pretty good at that. You'll only need to take out your phone for your biometrics scan and verification with your phone scanning. You're only sharing your information at one point to via your agent, which is your wallet app and that's securely stored with blockchain technology, which actually makes your information inaccessible to hackers. If you're not sure how blockchain technology works, I've written a blog about it where I link to a really great short video, so we'll share that in our webinar summary. So the first part on your trip is making reservations. What you'll do is you'll go to the website where you're going to make your reservations. You scan a QR code. Your agent, which is your wallet app, is going to prompt you to establish a secure connection. You will auto log in to that account on your website because you'll have an existing account with them. You'll finish making your reservation and when you're done, your agent is going to prompt you to accept the credentials for that trip and then it's going to store it in your wallet and ready to go for your trip. The next step is going through airport security. You'll just take out your phone and tap your phone on the NFC device. Your agent will prompt you to share your government ID credentials, so whether that's your driver's license, your passport for international or domestic flights, your security agent is going to verify, but via the biometrics and then you're good to go. The next step is boarding. Your phone will actually automatically connect to Bluetooth as you approach the gate. Your digital agent is then going to prompt you to share your plane reservation credential. You'll do a biometric scan. You'll compare it with the reservation and if all matches, you'll get a green light and you'll be able to board the plane. And then once you arrive at your destination, so this next step can be for a hotel check-in, car reservation, or if you're at a conference, you'll take out the phone, scan your QR code. Your agent is going to prompt you to share the credentials. You'll wait for your verification and biometric scan, and then you complete the check-in. You'll be able to go up to your hotel room and not have to wait in line at the reservation desk and fumble around with everything. The next one is networking, which I find is pretty neat. What you'll be able to do is when you meet someone that you want to connect with, one of you will display the QR code on your phone, the other one will scan it. Both of your agents will negotiate a private connection, and then each of you are prompted to share your business card or whatever credentials you want over the secure connection. And then now you each share a direct personal connection that's going to last for as long as you want it. And so in all of these instances, you have the opportunity to really revoke the credential that you've shared at any point. So the whole process not only is more secure, but it saves you time, hassle, and it just makes the whole travel experience more seamless. So the next one, I'm going to throw it over to Daryl. He'll talk about a few things here. Perfect. Thanks, Christine. So one of the things that we went through back in the days of the Wall report, and I'm not sure it made it into the SSI book, was that part of the value of having these digital wallets is that these things can be piled up, and I just returned from a trip to the UK. And my wallet doesn't look quite like the one you're seeing. There's not quite George Costanza level, but I do have numerous receipts and things that I need to have managed. Ranging from the flights that I was on, I have a client project that I need to build that to. We had a large dinner of a different client project to build that to. I have the internal entertainment stuff that we did, and all of these things are sitting there waiting for me to process. There are certainly expense tracking softwares out there, but I'm looking forward to a day when my agent can basically say, hey, this was, I think this is for client X. I think this is for client Y. I think these are the internal things you did. You need to build this and get your expense claim reimbursed so that these agents can start to build this, to start to build up my record or take a look at my record and start to assemble them into more of an expense claim and just basically process the stuff that it already has as opposed to me having to go through pieces of paper and have to look at this. Part of that agent relationship, as Christine also alluded to, is I want it to handle a bunch of things. For example, as I check into various hotels, each of them has different rules. This is an M where I stayed is a relatively lightweight. It's a European company. Strangely, it doesn't ask for any ID. It uses basic. I can walk in, tap my credit card and boom, I have a room key. Don't have to talk to a human at all. When I walk into a Marriott though, their whole ritual is different for whatever reasons. They are now asking for proof of identity. So they asked for an identity document. They also asked for the credit card to just see it. They've already got it on file and you have to ask yourself, what's the business process is driving that? Why are they doing this? And why is it so painful? The last thing I want to do after taking a red eye, a nine and a half hour flight, a couple hours to get from the airport to downtown to the hotel is come in and start fumbling through for whatever documents it is that they need. How can my agent kind of handle that? And then Christine was covering off how that really works. Christine, do you want to take it away for the next, I'll lead into this a little bit perhaps. Yeah. Christine's been engaging with numerous different. Conspiracy groups that are out and looking at what are the trends. As we take a look as we do a bunch of research in various different areas here at continuum loop. Christine's been diving into this, you know, this conspiracy, you know, individual area where folks are freaking out about digital identity. They're thinking Bill Gates is, you know, doing the same thing. You know, the demonizing and sticking chips and people, but, or that the, the, the, the weft is pushing governments to take over, you know, there's this deep state, whatever is weft, which is just utterly quite asinine. But it's interesting to see how these conspiracies anchor themselves, but they kind of fall down when you go through the, what's really happening and Christine is going to take us through a bit of that. Yeah, so, so like Darryl said, going down this rabbit hole. I'm actually after our webinar here, I'm gonna do a post kind of exploring it even further. So I picked out my top three that I thought people were kind of most freaking out about and that were easiest to break down. And I really wanna be able to give some assurance to people that this is not like a world takeover trying to control you. It's actually to protect us. So there's been a lot of this misinformation circulating and so I'll just get into these three important ones. So the first one here is that the claim is that every citizen's personal, financial, business, medical, everything is going to be centralized in one system which is actually completely not true. Digital ID is decentralized. It's on the blockchain technology and there's almost no data written to the ledger everything's gonna be stored and encrypted on your phone. So what's actually happening right now is your personal, financial, medical, all of that information is actually already stored in a centralized server. The government issues all of those credentials. It's their property. Your driver's license is not your property and your passport is not your property. They're both property, the passports property of Canada and the driver's license is Ontario. So organizations like Facebook, Google, they already hold all of your information in a centralized manner and they claim your data as their asset. So when we decentralize, we take back the ownership of all of our credentials and our identity. We'll be able to choose who we share it with and when we share it and then we'll actually have the opportunity to monetize our identity just like Google and Facebook already do which is why they're not so keen on these digital identity frameworks. The next one here is one that I find super interesting is that digital ID is gonna expose all of your demons. It's gonna follow you everywhere you go and kind of true, but not unless you share it. So everything is encrypted securely on your phone but you have the ability to share it with who you want, when you want. So it'll put you in charge of all of your sensitive information. The government or anyone else actually doesn't even know when you've used your ID. You'll be able to prove your identity or your age without having to show your name, your birth date, your height, your weight. If you're at the LCBO or the beer store you can just tap your phone on an NFC reader to prove that, yeah, you're over 19 because essentially that's all the clerk needs to know. They don't need to see all of your info. It might be important as well, Christine, here for folks to recognize that right now when you take a look at the world of logging in with Facebook and logging with Google, Facebook knows exactly what you're doing. They know exactly what's happening as far as if I go visit a store, an online store that's not part of Facebook, but because of the cooking they're actually watching my activity. They're knowing that I went to LL Bean and spent a bunch of time. They're knowing that I went to a particular site and left immediately. They're actually building up profiles. So this what's funny is that the folks who are taking the government's conspiring to do this is ridiculous because Facebook and Google and the other, if you actually look at many of the sites you'll see there's about a couple hundred quiet services that are constantly watching the cookies. Even on the most private sites there are still dozens and dozens of these that are monitoring your behavior. So this isn't a question of exposing your demons in a new way. This is actually protecting you because you're not exposing. You're only releasing what you need to and you're doing it consciously as opposed to just browsing the internet the amount of information that these folks know about you is insane. That's one of the reasons why the government is stepping in. I think you were gonna cover that though. I might have stolen it. Yeah. Well, no, it's okay. And you know, like we say Facebook and Google just because those are the most recognizable. I mean, this is every website you visit. You know, like I was looking on my cookies the other day and I actually had cookies from websites who said they didn't store cookies. So, you know, what's going on there? And then even that, like they're holding all your information. Well, what if they're subject to a data breach? You have absolutely no control. Like we're leaving ourselves open to the risk of exposure every single day. And then with a digital ID I think that's gonna be essential because it's gonna allow us just to take back control of all of that. I'm holding my information, not Google and Facebook. Like why are we putting them in charge of our sensitive information? They're not security companies. They're social media or, you know, their organization are not security companies. So when we hold our data. Sorry for jumping in again. No, no, it's okay. I'm gonna share for just explanatory purposes a link here that folks can follow. We'll put it in the webinar as well. I mean, I'll send it to you through Slack's, we have that. That is a graphic of what is shared when you go through PayPal. So this is any site that if I pay through PayPal, all of the groups that are basically receiving data, you have to consider PayPal as a payment engine. It is regulated. It is subject to privacy constraints and laws. They are in theory, good citizens. And when I saw what information they were gathering, forget Facebook and Google who were, they're not as regulated. They're not as controlled. There's not as much constraint on them. When I saw what PayPal was doing and I'm like, oh my God, it was unbelievable how much information was being shared. But folks need to realize that this is happening at unbelievable automated internet scale levels. And what you've found out is that, no, it's actually, we're starting to put the protections in place. Yeah, so we need to take our data away from centralized services that are a significant target for hackers and take back ownership. And we have to take back ownership. We've given up too much to all these organizations. You put in your email, your birthday, your phone number, like all this stuff, you're just giving it away to them. Like why? We should be responsible for that. I put my information in an app called Robo. And I've been subject to over like 50 data breaches. And that's only using two emails I've had over the last like 10 years. What if I put more in? Like it's insane. We have to take back ownership. So the next one here is a little bit the same. It's an abuse of government authority in terms of surveillance and our compelled behavior. But the government is actually stepping in to help us. We are actually being abused by companies like Google and Facebook. They're claiming our data as their asset. They're making money off of it. And then in their algorithms heavily influence us. I mean, they're using our own activity and then targeting us with advertising based on it. So digital ID is all about authentication, authorization, privacy. If we have a widely adopted digital ID framework that's encrypted on our phones, we'll be able to take back control and monetize our own identities. So at this point, really, the Canadian government has no choice but to step in and protect us. And they're gonna work with them and model it off frameworks already in the works like in the European Union Framework, E-I-D-A-S, that who are already on the way to protecting their citizens rights. So the Canadian government, I believe, is actually taking the right steps and they're on the right track with consulting private sector companies like us. That's also on the right track because hopefully we'll try and keep them in check. So it's really hard to say what the future holds for SSI, but it's just really important to remember it's all about taking back your rights, not surrendering them. And remember that the only ones who are benefiting off of your digital ID is the issuer, the person who gave you the credential, the holder, which is you, and then the verifier, the person that you're sharing with. It's really not, I don't think it's something to be scared of. I think it's something we should embrace, but also we have to monitor it and make sure frameworks are being built appropriately. And I think that's on to you, Daryl. Perfect. So what I'll do right now is just run through a quick, some of the trends that we're seeing right now. I think you can just jump to the next slide. I'll just, three or four of them, I think three that got noted that I think were important to discuss. One of these trends is, and I realized I did a build here that I would have thought, for some reason I thought I was going to be controlling, that was silly of me. Could you just click a few? Just, so I want to cover off a couple of things. The one of the trends we're seeing right now is a test for a simple, what some people are calling KYC, Know Your Customer. KYC is a very overloaded term, very misunderstood term. People are talking about, Know Your Customer thinking, this is banking regulation level, but really when there's a lot of it, and Dave Birch goes through this, Dave Birch, I think he wrote the book, Identity is the New Currency, deep, deep, well respected in the payments and banking space and digital identity space. But he's really explained that there's really a couple of tests that are necessary that are far more prevalent, meaning they're everywhere, than a real formal KYC. For example, banking KYC, I have gone through that process very seldom. That said, I just moved across the country. I'm now living in Vancouver, British Columbia, and finally opened up a new bank account. It has been, other than business, it has been 10 plus years. That's not a really good business to build on as KYC. But one of the things people are wondering about is, you know, are you a human? The question there is, are you a body? If you click again, I click twice actually, please. Are you a dog? This is the joke of Identity on the internet. No one knows if you're a dog. Are you a robot dog? All I wanna know really is, are you human? But then there's a subtle difference. I may need to know a little bit more. Are you a unique human? Because I'm trying to protect from you creating, and this is my example here is 10,000 accounts and one more, one more click. And also I may want to know, have you been here before? I don't wanna necessarily know who you are, by name, by driver's license number, by social security number, social insurance number. I just wanna know you've been here because I want to help you. This is kind of analogous to I think the original intent or one of the original intents of cookies is simply the, can I help, your experience be better later? As opposed to, and again, the notes and that link I shared, what has happened to cookies in the PayPal example, which is literally hundreds of different agencies that freak me out, frankly. I just wanna serve you better and know that you're a customer, know that you've purchased from me and I may not really need you to log in with a username and password. I may not need to store your credit card number, that's a whole business decision we can go through, but really all I'm looking for is these two things. Are you human and or, are you a unique human? Where I level up a little bit. That after that, you get into the deeper KYC. What is your name? What is your first name, last name, date of birth? Are you on any politically exposed person's list? Are you on any block lists for very simple financial services for anti-money laundering or counter-terrorism financing? You know, this is where you're opening up a bank account. Realistically, most of the use cases around don't hit that bar. I'll just extemporaneously add, I think I just did that. Don't need to say extemporaneously. I'll add that the KYC folks and we'll talk a little bit about DeFi and stuff and stuff. Actually, can you jump to the next slide? I think I may actually be diving into my next trend already. This one? Next one. Nope, apparently I have, I don't know what I do with the animation here. Next slide. There we go. There we go. So DeFi, Decentralized Finance gets into this. Know your customer world and what's kind of funny is one of the things that Christine and I have been researching, largely Christine, is what are the DEXs doing out there? What are the Decentralized Exchange is doing out there with respect to KYC and identity? Are they looking for proof of human? Are they looking for proof of unique human? Or are they going deeper into full KYC? And it's kind of humorous in a sick, sad way to see the trend of DEXs that are going from the following and they all seem to go this way in the beginning. The newer DEXs are not following the same trend, thankfully. There are DEXs, Decentralized Exchanges that are bragging that they don't need to know anything about you. You can do anything you want here. We don't need any identifiable information, which is nice in some ways, except these folks have absolutely no way of knowing the source of funds. They could be easily servicing North Korea, which just stole $625 billion worth of Ethereum of ETH. They could be servicing terrorists. They could be servicing criminals. They don't know who they're servicing because they're naive enough to think that KYC, that know your customer and anti-monitoring laundering and basically regulation. They think it doesn't apply to them. What's actually happening in the DeFi space is slowly or maturely, the slow prior is hard. The DEXs, the Decentralized Exchanges are coming to realize that KYC is an obligation that they have if they ever wanna leave their home country. If they wanted to land in the States in three or four years and not be, well, interrogated by various different groups that understand that you're running this exchange. We have been monitoring the addresses that have been pushing money through this exchange and we've identified them as people who should not be moving money. You just broke the laws of this particular country. It's comical and sad to see how naive these people are. The net of it is the DEXs are either still sitting there not doing any KYC or they're realizing we need to get in and start doing KYC and they think KYC is a credential. KYC is a process, a credential that says here's my driver's license and I took a selfie might be sufficient to meet your compliance needs but likely is not. You can't defer KYC and your regulatory burden. I semi-jokingly told someone who asked me, well, do you think I need KYC? I'm like, well, if you don't follow KYC you might get a go to jail card. So this isn't a question necessarily of just fines. It's a question of hardcore regulation with serious consequences, both financial and non-financial. And it's nice to see though that some of the more forward-looking DEXs that we're seeing launch are coming in understanding that this is a requirement. They're not saying we don't need KYC because we're decentralized. They're coming in saying, hey, here's what we do. Here's what we need from you. Here's why we need it from you. And if you don't like it, hey, great, cool. Go one of the crazy Wild Wild West places. And then you have to wonder at some point those Wild Wild West approaches, when will they either collapse or turn into kind of a dark web, a decentralized dark web for financial transactions? So it's one of the interesting things we've been seeing is that trend that folks are waking up to the need that decentralization does not mean I don't fall under regulation. It means I'm operating in a different way. I have removed a rent-seeking middleman. And I'm adding value by creating decentralized capabilities. And due to that, maybe perhaps my regulatory burden is a little lower, but the groups that are not, they're thinking they're not naive enough to think that it doesn't apply to them. So that's been a very interesting trend we've been watching. Can you jump to the next slide, Christine? Yep. Here's another one. I talked a little bit about this in the last webinar, I think, or at least I've been just talking about it a fair bit in various different clients and some of our pro-boto engagements. I was talking with one of the groups that have been funding a lot of the development to meet their own needs. This is classic, great open-source approach, is that you have a business problem. You need to solve the business problem but you recognize overall that everybody has the same business problem or many people have the same business problem. I was talking to a group that's been funding a lot of the efforts. I'm not going to name them here just because anybody could figure it out. But there was a frustration level that Hyperledger Aries was created, and I was involved before it was called Hyperledger Aries. I'm just trying to think of when it was. It was three, four, perhaps even five years ago. When we look at things like ACAPI, I always forget what Aries credential agent Python, maybe that's what it is. We look at that code base. We're talking serious investment in both capability and overall capacity to issue, hold, verify for business purposes and or for consumer purposes. It's been used by governments to issue corporate registrations. It's been used as a mediator agent so that I can send messages back and forth. What's been interesting is there been, like I can't remember how many times I heard the frustration that says, no one's coming, it's just us doing the work. It's just us doing the work, just us doing the work. Which is frustrating if they weren't already meeting their own business needs. The message I took was, do they not realize how valuable this is? And it's a natural frustration. What's really cool is in the past few months, the community which was largely the same group of people measured on a hand or maybe couple hands, largely one hand, has now turned into a regular meeting which has 40 to 50 people who are contributing. What's interesting is Hyperledger Aries initially was anchored down to Hyperledger Indy. It's interesting to see on the Indy space that it is now being decomposed and refactored because there are pieces that finally there's enough Indy networks. There's probably a dozen governments that are working towards Indy-based networks, dozens and dozens more projects that are anchoring down to Indy networks, whether that be sovereign, whether they're standing up their own. But the community is growing to the point that 40, 50 people of real contributors and active participants in the community. So they basically 10x their community and now we're seeing other ledgers come in. We're seeing already we had, I think it's a trust block and orb out of the Secure Key family and that's now part of a vast. We're seeing Cardano is in there. Why are we seeing this? The reason is is that just as the folks funding a lot of the work, and there's more funders too now, there's more projects that are contributing. But what they're realizing is that everybody has the same problem. I need to be able to establish a decentralized identifier in a private manner for myself and if I want to communicate with Christine, she needs a private data as well. We need to be able to exchange information both on credential basis. I have to have a wallet that I can put that in. I need to be able to offer a credential to Christine. That's actually a communication pipe. Then hyperledgeraries and hyperledgeraries wallet and the overall mediator agent provide this backbone that people don't have to build anymore. If you have to build this, you are looking at weeks, if not months, many, many weeks. Largely, I would say most teams would spend person months building that base infrastructure before you can do anything effective. Whereas with hyperledgeraries, with a competent developer, you can be sharing information in an afternoon. So we actually see a huge change there. Another trend we're seeing is more and more groups are taking a look and saying, listen, I don't understand which of the pieces of W3C verifiable credentials I want to use. I support the concept of the standardization and I know it's going through a revision. Maybe that'll meet my needs, but in the meantime, I'm just gonna use a non-crit. People are being very practical looking, going, this has been in use in the wild for now for five plus years. The systems that amount out there, millions and millions and millions of credentials have been issued, been shared, proof requests have been shared using a non-crit. So we're seeing a fair bit of activity in the non-crit space. So that's interesting to see that what was considered the original SSI credential is now getting some legs. But what's really nice about it is it's not like it's going back and saying, this is all we're gonna do. It's like, listen, while the W3C new version comes out and while a few other things, a different crypto schemes like BBS plus shake out, we need to make forward progress. We need to get the credentials flowing. And when it's ready, and another thing hyperledger areas is doing, it's ready to support multiple credential types. So you can use a non-credit in the beginning right now. And then as other standards and other requirements become clear, plug in different things. So it's neat to see these two things that have been trundling along for some time, too much frustration suddenly get all that attention. It's that classic overnight success story that never ever happens overnight. I think that's about it for the trends, Christine. I think, unless I have forgotten something, it is early morning here. Yeah, I know. That's about it. So if we have any questions, if anybody has anything they want us to expand on or in the chat. So I have one question that came out of it. It's an IOW participant and IOW is on this week and in the Bay Area. I'm not down there, but it comes back to the non-cred side. It's one of the questions that was popped up. It's that they wanted to answer and they're going to watch the recording is how do I use a non-creds but support W3C, which I kind of alluded to. I was trying to explain that, but I want to handle it directly. The approach that I would and am, actively suggesting with various different projects, whether that be something where we're an advisor on or we're more deeply engaged, is to just adopt a non-creds as is, but use it in the way that hyperledger Aries is approaching it such that hyperledger Aries, the hyperledger Aries wallet, hyperledger Aries overall implementation of DITCOM as well as it's near alignment now with the presentation exchange from Diff is be prepared to plug in the newer formats when they're ready, because the non-creds is a starting point. That's all it is, but it's a good starting point. Again, it's been used for five plus years. It has been used by multiple organizations of different types, whether that be financial institutions, governments, generic business. So adopt it, but be prepared to go to the next version of a non-creds, whether that be a BBS plus compatible version of a non-creds or a brand new and W3C verifiable credential version two type style of credential, which implies a few things. One is that you may want to consider reissuing and or as time and lifecycle go through, that the next version of a credential, for example, a driver's license last about five years, at least in Ontario. I have to figure that out in British Columbia now. When it's renewed, maybe it's a different format. Me as a human, as a user, I would never notice the difference. I just wouldn't. Proof request would work the same process, the flow of information would be the same, how it's stored on my device and how the crypto is signed and how it does selective disclosure and zero knowledge proofs and minimum disclosure might differ on the technical bits, but the fundamental capabilities really wouldn't change. So I would suggest doing that. And just to our attendees, if you do have any questions, we forgot to actually mentioned, just fire them in through the chat or through the. We have one that came in through the Q and A. Cool. It's, I guess I want you to talk about what is the trend over trust registry? Yeah. That's one that, yeah. In hindsight, it's a great question. I should have probably put that in. Trust registries are to me, growing in importance. One of the things that Christine has been doing actually has been helping on the trust registry specification at trust over IP. The version one specification is the most basic. It really lists only two things. Is this, it answers two questions and there is a third. Does this, is this issue or authoritative to issue this type of credential under a particular governance framework? So you could say, hey, is this a government issuing a driver's license type X under a particular governance framework? It also asks the question, answers the question, is this verifier authorized to request this, sorry, as a verifier for this credential type under this governance framework? That really allows you to set up the most basic parts of a trust registry. But what we're starting to see is a lot of questions, a lot of realization that the next step goes a fair bit deeper. We purposely made the version one spec which is still in draft. Very, very, very simple because it's one of these iceberg things. You dig below the surface, you realize just how big things are and how fast they get, they get big, meaning big effort. But the next steps really are what credential types are part of a trust registry. What proof requests, presentation requests are made of those credential types in an ecosystem. What wallets are authorized in an ecosystem? Because what we're seeing now is people aren't asking questions about, well, how does SSI anchor down to the blockchain? It's, how do I know if I can trust this issuer? How do I handle the inevitable when I was on a call recently with a government and a financial institution and the government person says, yeah, we're likely gonna participate in hundreds of trust registers, trust frameworks. And it's just like hundreds. How does a financial institution deal with hundreds, thousands? Because the government's concerned about itself. A financial institution may have cross country focus, international focus. You can quickly get to thousands of trust frameworks. Trust registries are the only answer to help you scale that way. So I'm hoping that helps. We've got another question here from Will. So the promise of SSI is to own all of your data, your data self. How far are we from reaching full sovereign data ownership? I want you to start on this, Christine. And I don't want it to look like a setup. But I'm curious, because one of Christine's roles here is to bring things down to a more simple level. I tend to go a little bit too deep, too hard, too fast. But Christine has been looking at the realities of what's on the ground. So why don't you take a stab at this? Yeah, I think we're still a far ways away here. I mean, specifically in Canada. I know that the EU is a little bit farther ahead of us. I think that we'll see what's going to happen in November in Ontario when they do release the digital ID. We'll see how that goes over. If it works as well as it does in BC, they've been using it for a few years. But yeah, full sovereign data ownership, I definitely think we're still a few years off from that just because of the way that frameworks have to be built and regulations and trying to have everything work together, like interoperability. I just, I don't see that for a while. I don't know about you, Daryl. Yeah, I think that's the timeline is the hard part. The whole thing is. Yeah. And we are a ways away from this becoming the normal pattern. But there are steps that are being taken right now. As you mentioned, there are numerous government initiatives in Canada. There are three provinces that are working towards this. They've all announced it in there. There's initiatives in the US in those initiatives in Africa in the EU alone. There's Spain, Germany, Netherlands, Finland. I think the UK are all moving towards and just baby steps, but they're doing it in different ways. Yeah, and there's still a lot of hesitation. Like we saw here in Canada, Saskatchewan put a pause on their system. So, you know, like there and they want to watch and see what happens in Ontario. So there's still a lot of hesitation. And I think a lot of that comes from, you know, the public. They're worried about this. There was just a petition circulated in the Ontario legislature to ban digital ID that got 21,000 signatures. So we have a lot of work to do in terms of, you know, educating the population, earning back that trust because a lot of the reason that people don't trust digital ID is because it's broken. The internet, we've broken trust. So we've got to build that back up. Yeah, exactly. And as well, there's some structures there that you really need. In one of the, like you said, the EU is looking at taking certain approaches, some of which we've been working at trust over IP on some responses to their efforts. And they're going a little far in some directions, particularly on wallets that would kind of close the ecosystem down to just a handful by definition, as opposed to letting the market figure this out. But if we take a look at the, and it was neat to see Saskatchewan pause in RFP, there can only be so many people who are blazing the trail. We don't need everybody to go down the path of, hey, we're all in on this. We believe that it's the correct path, but there's going to be learnings involved. There's already been major learnings involved by all of the provinces who are going down this path. Other places are doing different things. The UK is focused in on the NHS, the National Health System, and individual credentials for the professionals who are inside the system. New Zealand went full SSI on some of their COVID credentialing. We're seeing in Africa, there's a Ministry of Education in one country that's doing an SSI-based student records. So the student gets to carry their own things. So we're seeing individual pieces. What I think is important, Will, because we're seeing in the different ways very, very similar patterns, where, hey, this is a government identity document that I have, it's a photo card, it's a driver's license, a health card. This is a professional credential that says, I am a doctor trained in this particular medical field. I am a nurse who's capable of doing this kind of a blood extraction versus that type. We're seeing this in the students, because we're all walking down different paths, the patterns are emerging. The number one concern, and I've probably say this on every webinar, that I've got is we need to get far enough down this path to really understand how do we do, what are the systems behind this that are necessary? Backup and recovery is one. That's my nightmare, Christine's probably tired of hearing this. No, actually, I find it interesting, I'm into it too. Yeah, and I've actually had Christine start working, and it probably won't be out this week, but we're gonna have a recovery post, to take a different lens of looking at it. But I look at it this way. I need to know that it's not just a cold wallet that I have to remember the keys for, the seed for, that I have a partner who is helping me store my wallet before I'm gonna put too much stuff in it. Because there comes a point at which if I lose my wallet, if I have forgotten my keys, that I am in trouble. Right now, if I lose my wallet, it's actually little, it's actually easier for me to get a digital credential back than it is to go to a location and get a physical one, especially with COVID. Once that gets started to figure out, well, that's gonna start building the background system. So we need all of that stuff will to happen before it's gonna be literally everywhere. My hope is that we won't even notice that it just kind of happened though. Yeah, and I think like COVID, that's the one positive thing is that that really pushed us forward in terms of the digital ID and going contact lists. And so I think that there's progress is being made and it's getting pushed forward, but I still think we're ways off. Agreed, agreed. And then this is, and thanks for your comment there, well, it's digital identity, this decentralized identity SSI space has been all consuming. Christine actually came from another one of our businesses and has been drinking and now drinking the Kool-Aid and probably will start to make some of the digital, the essential identity Kool-Aid. But I think it's also really important for us to make sure that we're doing the right things because the default, and this is again, why I think government is appropriately stepping in, they've seen what's happened when we get this wrong. They've seen that certainly in Canada, certainly in the approach that we take, Canada is very privacy-centric. We don't like the idea of being surveilled by government or by anyone. The problem is we had no stopping and no ability to slow down anyone. Oh, here's a loaded one. I'll field this question. Anonymous attendee, I love that name. Your thoughts on government's place in digital wallets market. Part of the wallet report, and then we did an update on the webinar just this year, so we have a blog post on that that we'll link to in the show notes for this. It really depends on which market you're in. We're seeing a couple of trends right now. Diff, the DeCentral's Identity Foundation has had numerous government participants, either the direct government people and or the people who are working on some government projects from all over the globe. What are the requirements on a highly high assurance credential and what's going to be required and it's looking like there's going to need to be kind of conformance and accreditation regimes required at some point. I'd prefer right now myself that I like the approach that as light as possible, but it's going to be necessary. I don't want to, the joke I've used over the years is Bubba's Wallet. Imagine Bubba's Wallet is in the App Store, has a thousand five-star reviews. Everyone says it's the easiest to use, the best way to manage your identity. It also manages crypto for you. It does all this stuff for you. It's seamless and just works everywhere. What you don't realize is it was written by North Korea. So it's storing everything in an SSI way, but every time it looks at it, it sends information off to a nefarious or a state actor or a non-state actor that's doing that for nefarious reasons. So imagine that when you look at that PayPal, who gets the data? That a whole bunch of folks are getting the data. We don't want that. But the EU has gone pretty hardcore on how it sees where wallets are going. Trust over IP. There's actually a really good blog article by Evernim Avast on some of the flaws in the approach that they're taking. They're being very heavy-handed. In time, I think that's where we're gonna end up is that if you want to do X, if I want to be able to travel with tapping my phone and knowing that all of this stuff is happening, much along that very simple pathway that Christine described, there may be a bar that has set pretty high, but I think the market needs to help determine where that is as opposed to prescriptively jumping in and saying, thou shalt do X. It's really kind of heavy-handed on some aspects. Other aspects, it's absolutely fantastic. We'll find, Christine, the articles that I know Trust Over IP is pushing out or has pushed out. We'll figure out where that is. Put that in the show notes, as well as that Evernim Avast article. But yeah, I think- Yeah, that's a great one. The government needs to be involved in this. They need to be involved. The question is, what is their role? I don't see governments building their own wallets in the long term. In the short term, they may have to. There are issues with non-existence of interoperable wallets that don't tie you to a particular vendor. We're seeing tests in Canada, the Digital Identity Lab, a peer aversion team have a test suite, but it may or may not meet the full needs of government. But the government, I believe in that case, will likely governments will likely kind of show the way and then get out of the way. No, just keep an eye on things and nudge it along. I'm hoping that helps, Will. Or anonymous attendees, sorry. Yeah, that was anonymous. That wasn't Will. No. So I think that's it. Those are great questions. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah, so thanks. No more questions, I think. Christine, do you want to close us off? I think you were just- Yeah. Thanks so much, everyone, for coming. Like I said, we're going to circulate some notes on the webinar and we'll get a blog post up with all the links that we said we'd provide. But thanks a lot for coming. We really appreciate it. Awesome. Thanks a ton, folks. Thank you. Bye.