 and what's happening with human rights around our world on ThinkDeck Live, broadcasting from our downtown studio in Honolulu, Hawaii, and Juan and Nuiakea. Today, we're looking at everyone everywhere, recognition as a person. Article six, realizing the right to recognition with an amazing international and NGO, Franciscans International and their International Advocacy Director. Budi, thank you so much for joining us. My pleasure, Chosua. Thanks for the invitation. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights inspires people around the planet to partner together to make an impact. And Article six understands everyone as the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law. Can you share with us a bit what first inspired you to care about this issue and campaigns you're involved in and maybe also the initial issues and initiatives that you were participating? Thanks for the questions. As we are human rights organizations, of course, the Universal Declaration has been one of the main source of inspiration for us as a soft law at the international level as well as a standard that has been used universally. So we try to be faithful as much as possible with the Universal Declaration. And at the same time, we are also trying to listen to the communities and to the people that we are working with. So it has been very inspiring to understand that although the Universal Declaration has been issued 75 years ago, but the full achievement or implementations of Universal Declaration is still very challenging even up to today. So therefore, when we speak with the partners, the people in which we are working with, we understand that we still need to really campaign to make this Universal Declaration understood and be the guidance of not only us, but also for the government authorities so that everyone can have the equal right, the equal opportunity, the equal treatment before the law. So that's very much inspiring us. And I think in particular, because we are a Franciscan international organization that has been working mainly with the Franciscan network in different parts of the world, one of our main, let's say, concern is on how to work with those who are marginalized. And often those who are marginalized are those who are really not having the same recognitions or opportunity as other people. So just to give you an example on the concrete things that we are doing in the Americas, for example, in particular in the Central America, we are working a lot with the people on the move. Those who are displaced either because of the security situations or because of the climate change situations or because of poverty, they have to move from one country to another country. And when they come to another country, often they are treated differently or they are marginalized. So that's why for us, it's quite important for us to work with these kind of people who do not have the same recognitions before the law as the citizens in that country. And that's true. Article six is the foundational right upon which many of the remaining UDH articles depend on, rooted in recognition. Can you share a bit as well, how does Franciscan's international or other NGOs, you know, actualize this article and what actions are you involved with to promote and protect human rights? As you can see that this article is very, very important. And as you mentioned rightly, that it becomes a kind of fundament for many other rights that have been translated into different international human rights norms. As we all know that this article has also been translated into the article 16 of the International Covenant on International and Political Rights and some other articles as well. And of course, it has also inspired some other regional mechanisms and national legislations and everything. And for us, in terms of how to work on it, once again, we try to use this article to make sure that everyone is equal, everyone is recognized. And in fact, the challenges and the situations can be different from one place to another place. I just spoke earlier regarding the situations of people on the move or migrants in the situations like in Mexico, Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador. But at the same time, we are also faced with the situations of those who are seeking protections because of the conflict situations in their countries. And of course, this happens in several other places. Like for us, we've been in touch with some people who have to move from Myanmar to other places because of the current situation in Myanmar. Unfortunately, it's not only the current situations but the situations that has been taking place in Myanmar for quite some time. So these people on the move or these people who are displaced forcibly because the conflict situations, they also need to get the protections, they need to get the recognition as well. And then we also understand that some people who have to move to other situations because of their economic situations such as the migrant workers, for example, some of the migrant workers who have to move to other countries because of the economic reasons, often they do not also have the same recognitions before the law by the host country. They are treated as the secondary citizens or secondary level in that law. So we are faced with so many situations in which this Article 6 is very much relevant and trying to facilitate them and trying to help them so that they can be treated equally in the countries outside their country of origin. Well, those are excellent points. And you mentioned how Article 6 is also in the International Covenant Civil and Political Maybe you could share a bit how Franciscan's international operates in the human rights treaty bodies and helps bringing directly impacted people to country reviews as well as the optional protocols or other aspects around the Human Rights Council as that meeting takes place three times a year. And we know you're always able to facilitate side events and other ways for people to be able to participate and make sure their rights are realized. Thank you for that question because for us, as you mentioned that the human right, the UN Human Rights Mechanism has several bodies and subsidiary bodies in which they provide the avenues for the affected communities to bring their concerns and try to put the state accountable on their human rights situations. So we, as Franciscan international, we do work using, for example, the UN Treaty bodies and for the Article 6 of the UNHR, for example, we use the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights in which we make submissions on the country-specific situations and we try to really bring the conscience of the people coming from that country that is being reviewed and make submissions to the UN Human Rights Committee so that the UN Human Rights Committee can see what are the obligations of the state that is being reviewed so that the state can really guarantee a full implementation of that article and the people on the ground can benefit from that protections and implementations of that article. Just to give you an example, for the ICCPR, for example, in the past, we made submissions on the human rights situations of asylum seekers to Australia who were detained in Christmas Island, in Nauru or in Papua New Guinea. So there are people who seek protections from Australia. Unfortunately, they are confined in a detention center in a region that is considered outside Australia, like Christmas Island, but also in Nauru and Papua New Guinea. And when they are in those places, they are not even with the equal treatment, they are not recognized in the same level before the Australian law. So for us, it is the violations of human rights of these people by the Australian government. So therefore, we made some submissions to the Human Rights Committee so that Australia can be reminded that they have the obligation to implement this Article 6 of the UDHR that has been translated into Article 16 in which Australia is a state party to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. Excellent. And when you look at that, maybe you could share with us a bit other NGOs that you see championing this important right and who are also creating a culture of human rights around Article 6 and some of the major heroes or sheroes were around on this right. And I guess this Article 6 has inspired quite many people or quite many NGOs and civil society organizations, not only at the international level, but they are also at the national level, especially the NGOs who are really working on the issue of the Human Rights, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, because one of the point of entries of the Article 6 of the UDHR or Article 16 of the ICCPR is indeed the Civil and Political Rights perspective. And for these, there are so many organizations that, for example, on the issue of refugee and asylum seekers, we know several organizations, the one that I know quite well, for example, and my network is just with Refugees Service in which they provide help for the refugees to get the treatment. I know as well in Caritas, for example, Caritas, they provide protections and also facilitation to people that are disadvantaged because of their situations. There are some other organizations in which they speak much more on the legal understanding of this article and also to see how the national isolation should be able to really provide protections based on the article 16 of UDHR. So there are some other organizations at the international level, and I mean organizations such as Human Rights Ports or Amnesty International, if I may say that, but also some regional organizations such as Forum Asia or other organizations, they do really work on those issues, but we have also to acknowledge that almost at all national level in our network, we understand that this article has been very much important for them as well in their work. When you share with that, it really does remind me of the important work that Franciscans International has been doing around climate change and human rights, and we know our COP28 is just around the corner. Can you maybe share why climate change and human rights is so important and some of the activities that have been done to ensure that this right is insured as well as maybe the right to a clean, healthy and sustainable environment? Yes, because we know that the different rights are very well connected to each other, so we cannot just look at the human rights only from one small article or another article, but there is a need to look at the human rights as one in which we can approach it to a different level. So for example, for us, we as Franciscans National, we think that the issue of climate change is part of our focus, knowing that it's part of the teams in which the Franciscans, the network of the Franciscans everywhere, think that it is our responsibility to care for the nature, the creations, the environment that we have. This is part of the charisma of St. Francis and St. Claire of ACC, so it's important for us. And understanding the current challenge that we are facing now, climate change has become one of the key issues that has been addressed widely, including by the UN when the Secretary General talked about the triple planetary crisis, climate change is one of those challenges. And for us, it's important for us to work with the existing mechanisms either by the UN Human Rights Council, by the different treaty bodies, but as well as through the COP, the Conference of Party to the UN Triple C, the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change. And we feel that these avenues are connected to each other. And as you rightly mentioned as well, the fact that there is a global recognition of the right to have the environment, it becomes another avenue in which the issue between the recognition of human being as equal before law, being equal before law. At the same time, we know that these people are being either displaced, discriminated because of their situations, including the situation on climate change. And then we think that it is important to bring this issue to COP 28 so that there is a holistic approach to the situations. Just also to give you an example in the past week, you're coming from the past week, so you understand it quite well. On how these situations in some small state and developing islands, they are being threatened either by the global warming, the rising of the sea level. At the same time, we understand that in some countries, such as Solomon Island, the numbers of the locking is increasing quite a lot because of the international demand. So that's making us that, of course, because of that locking, the environment has been affected, the people have been affected, and it creates some crisis, human rights crisis of the communities and their situations. And some of them are forced to be displaced to either island or maybe in the future also to another country. So that's why we see the interconnectedness of this issue. And then we think that we need to really use the different avenues so that the issue can be really addressed in a more comprehensive and proper way. Just another example, in the past week, we know that now we start to think about what's going to happen with the so-called climate refugee. And I think it is a challenge, although climate refugee has not been recognized internationally, but we understand that it's something that is concrete, something that is real, and some of the past week states now are really taking into account the future of their country, of their nations, and we need really to address because if the people from, for example, Tuvalu, has to move to another place, how will be their recognitions in these situations outside their country? So that's why these sort of climate change can also be seen as an avenue of advocacy of the people who will be displaced or who are already displaced by climate change to ensure that this Article 6 of the UTHR is really respected in this particular situation. No, really comprehensive and appreciate the creativity as well to apply international human rights law to these emerging issues that maybe people don't fully understand and also looking at COP 28 and seeing how important it is around loss and damages as well as making sure that people are directly impacted who had done the least amount to create these conditions of the climate crisis are then able to have access to funds to be able to make sure that, as you said, the large ocean nations are at the table representing their people. And that's really one of the most important points because Article 6 guarantees the genuine recognition before the law for everyone everywhere on earth. And you pointed out really good points that under the refugee convention, that there is no such aspect, but we know there was just the 52nd Pacific Island Forum that took place in the Cook Islands and we see to value being offered something from Australia that they haven't done in the past of 280 people able to move and migrate to Australia. So we do see there are changes, but we also know we're dealing with conditions and circumstances with the climate emergency that have never really been faced before certain legal questions around self-determination, boundaries, and the continuation of an entire country of that ancestral wisdom, being able to still be in place and to govern and take care of their own people. Yeah, I think you mentioned very rightly about this new development in which looking at how the states respond, there are some positive signs and we have to acknowledge that that there are some positive signs and of course there are some frustrations, especially from our side as human right defenders, but the positive signs, as you mentioned, the issue of Tuvalu, if Australia is genuine in welcoming these climate refugees and then it's going to set up either Julius Prudence or Presidents in which the states also acknowledge of these situations and also take actions in providing the protections for those who are displaced or those who have to migrate because of the climate change issues. And I think this example has to be put into the discussions in COP 28 in which the issue of loss and damage has to take into account this kind of situations because as you mentioned, they caused the least in terms of climate change but they are one of the first to be concretely affected. So I think these people need to have the voice, need to be heard and then the decision making process in COP 28 should really put these concrete cases at the center of the discussions and trying to put aside this kind of understanding that it's only about numbers, it's only about the coma or this and the negotiations, but keep always in mind the affected communities as the center of the discussions. And it is our task as civil society to ensure that these different mechanisms should not work in silos, they have to be connected. And so are you including us, we work on the issue of the human rights perspective of the climate negotiations and precisely the example of Tuvalu, the example of the climate displacement, it is human rights issues and it is the obligations that the climate actions should take the human rights approach in addressing this type of negative impact of climate change to the well-being of the people. It's true and as you see, we're on the eve of this COP 28 and we know there's a whole bunch of bigger negotiations coming up around Brazil hosting it and also potentially Australia and having a Pacific COP in a way, this conference of parties. We're at a point where that recognition as a person is so essential and we can see this with the challenges we're facing with our planet today. Maybe you could share with us a bit, what is your vision for the future of this important right? Yes, I think we need really to first put the affected communities at the center of advocacy that's important, but also to let those who are affected to speak for themselves. So it's quite important for those who are affected to speak for themselves. And I do believe that this article 6 of the UDHR will be very important in our discussions regarding the climate crisis or the triple planetary crisis because at the international level, there will be some legal questions, what will be the status of these people, how to understand the right to self-determinations in the context of climate crisis or triple planetary crisis or how the understanding of a nation in the future regarding the international law. And since the Geneva Convention on Refugee doesn't recognize the issue of climate refugee, that will be another question. So in my understanding, the interpretations of article 6 of UDHR will be very, very crucial, and of course it should be translated into, as I said, article 16 of the ICCPR in addressing the global situations now, in particular if you are talking about the triple planetary crisis. So it will be very, very important to remind the policymakers, but also to remind us as the human right defenders, to go back again on the importance of article 6 of the UDHR. So it's crucial as part of the main considerations to answer that, as you said, everyone everywhere, we have the equal opportunity. It really reminds me too, the way you describe it, it's putting a face on the climate crisis. It's making sure that people then know exactly who's being impacted and why. And it would be even better if we could trace the carbon, but it really does point out that this is really the people who are being most impacted. And more importantly, what we the global community have as a responsibility under international human rights law to be able to assist going forward. Yes, I support you very much. And that's why for us, although COP28 has not taken place yet, but we are a little bit of alarm on the fact that some of the negotiators, they mixed up between their position as a negotiator and that position to represent some interest like the corporate interest, that is worrying for us because I think we need to be very clear that people has to be at the center, people has to speak for themselves and the negotiators, the decisions of COP28 has to put face on this reality. And I guess the civil society has mobilized ourselves to influence this process, although of course the fact that COP28 is taking place in Dubai, we are not very sure on the civic space, on the possibility for us to really exercise our right, right of expressions, of freedom of expression, freedom of associations. It's challenging situations, but the underlying is that we will never give up, we will continue to speak up on behalf of the people and ask the people and we make sure that people's voice will be heard in the decision-making process and that our right to participate in the decision-making process should be respected and should be guaranteed, including in our work to ensure that article six of the UDHR is implemented and respected effectively. It's true, the UDHR does call for equality and equity beginning with the right to recognition as a person endowed from birth before the law and that equal recognition protection is central to all rights enshrined in the UDHR. Maybe you can take us down some potential paths to respect, protect and fulfill the rights on the ground and around the globe as we go forward. Yes, I think we need really, in terms of advocacy, we need to help the community or those who are marginalized to understand in a very simple language the fact that they have the right, that it is the responsibility of the state to fulfill that right, regardless if that state of origin or the state where they live because of the different factors as we said. But I think it's very important to let the people know that they have this right regardless of their situations because everyone is really equal before law and then we need a civil society as human activists, we need to work together hand in hand with them. It's true and even in another space that people don't normally put the two together, there is the annual forum on business and human rights which will take place soon in Geneva. Maybe you could give us a taste of what it's like to participate in this forum on business and human rights and why it's so important to guarantee that the voice of the people is heard in that important space. Exactly, the forum is taking place at the very moment starting from today until the day after tomorrow, so today's forum and in this kind of forum what is very important for us is about the corporate accountability, that the corporate should be accountable on their human rights compliance. And for us, we also work on the use of the legally binding instrument because we would like the corporate to be accountable internationally so that they should respect human rights and their conduct should be accountable to make sure that the community, the people, their rights should be respected so that's very important for us that we engage in the discussions and we push for the internationally legally binding instrument so that any abuses done by a corporate should be accountable before law, should be accountable and compliance with the international human rights obligation. No, that's a really good point because Franciscans International were very involved in the drafting of the guiding principles on business and human rights and their national action plans has been a step but it's great that you're pointing out why a new treaty is so important going forward. Exactly, so for us we are really pushing for the internationally binding treaty on business and human rights indeed. That's excellent. As we look to going to that space we know that if we did get a binding treaty that would then provide the space to make sure that people can make sure their rights are upheld, if a corporation is doing the wrong thing, if it's a climate crisis, if it's a country, it covers all aspects. Indeed, and by the end of the day it is the obligation of state. State is the duty bearer. So it means that the state has to enforce the corporate to be compliance with the international human rights norms. So the role of state is still very important and it is the state that has the obligations or that has the duty to ensure that the corporate that take place in their state or other states should be compliance with the international human rights obligation. And we are really fighting for that together with the communities, with the diversity of society organizations, with the indigenous people organizations, people movements. So we mobilize everyone so that we can really establish this international legally binding instrument to protect peoples from the corporate abuses. Rudy, thank you so much for your time and we very much appreciate all the efforts of Franciscans International. Aloha. Thank you very much. Bye.