 Have you join us on Coast to Coast? This is episode 17. It's hard to believe that we've been on this journey for four months, looking really at the future of cities in context of COVID-19. We've looked at all sorts of topics, from mobility to equity, with really an emphasis on public spaces and technology. We're really thinking through, what are the tangible practical solutions that we can think through for our cities? And for all of you who are in the audience today, of course, for the parents out there, including myself, what we do with our kids is on the top of our minds. I know I have a three-year-old who is in school and then his world turned literally upside down when all schools were shut down. And so we're gonna be looking at, what are some of the solutions that we're thinking about for schools and really making them safe? How can we leverage an outdoor space during this time? So I'll examine how schools can leverage green space during COVID-19. And we'll take a look at how parks and public spaces can provide a safer space for outdoor learning. And we have a leading expert on this. So I wanna welcome Sharon Danks, the CEO and founder of Green School Yards America, a nonprofit that supports schools and using the outdoor areas more strategically to improve the well-being of children, their communities, and the urban environment. So hey, Sharon, how's it going? Hi, thanks so much for having me today. I'm thrilled to have you. Thank you for being here. I know all of the parents out there are ego children more about what you have to say about schools and green spaces. So thanks again for joining us. What I really also think is very, very interesting about Green School Yards America is that you guys are the co-founder of the National COVID-19 Outdoor Learning Initiative, which is helping school districts across the country use outdoor spaces as they reopen with physical distancing measures in place. So that's gonna be a big bulk of what we're talking about today. So for our audience members out there, so the way this is gonna work for you, Sharon, and me is we're gonna have about 15 minutes for an interview. We'll go through a few questions around what you're doing, now how you're responding in context of COVID-19 and really kind of looking at the future after, because hopefully COVID will end, right? And there will be a future to all of this. So we'll have 15 minutes of that. And then we'll have time for our audience members to put in their questions in the Q&A box at the bottom of the screen, or on Facebook or Twitter, hashtag Night Live. So we'll have about 10-ish minutes to take live questions together. So with that, Sharon, let's get started. So I would love to start with some context setting. For you to tell us a bit about your work with Green School Yards America and why you started this work, I know you've been personally involved with this for over 20 years, and Green School Yards has been, you've guys have been at this for about seven years. So tell us a little bit about what you're doing and your theory of change. Sure, thanks. I've been in the Green School Yard field for 20 years, originally started in grad school, looking at the question of how do we make green cities? And it seemed to me that it wasn't a technical problem, we know how to make cities that are good for the ecosystems, but it's a consensus problem. And so I've been working on trying to solve the consensus problem of green cities, I'd say for the last 20 years, someone with an urban planning background. And I also have been intersecting that with how do we make great spaces for children in my work in general. And to me, a Green School Yard is a place that is a microcosm of the green city that you'd like to see. So it's a place where you can demonstrate where the rain should go, what it falls, how it comes off the rooftops and goes down the downspouts and soaks into the ground, how you can plant trees to change the microclimate of your neighborhood and also directly protect kids from heat, how you can add wildlife habitat for the birds and butterflies coming through and grow food with agriculture and then also involve kids and teachers and the community in the democratic processes that we'd like to see around how shared public space gets governed and decisions made for that. So for me, it's always been about that shifting a school yard into the place that you want to model what you wanna see in the environment. And about seven years ago after designing Green School Yards and working on participatory design in many schools, I decided to found a nonprofit, Green School Yards America to work at city scale change and to work with school districts and ask them the larger questions that would, I hope, change the norm for what we think of as a traditional school ground. How do we turn all of our school grounds into more park-like spaces that have benefits for children's learning and health and ecological systems and community access to public open space? And so we work with school districts and we ask them, what do you want the hundreds of acres that you manage to do for your kids and your community? How do you want it to be resources for education? How do you want it to help mental and physical health and the ecosystems? And we're thinking about this too on the larger scale and the state scale where we live, for example, in California, we have 10,000 schools and they are collectively on 130,000 acres of land with a daily user rate of 6.2 million kids and several hundred thousand adults. And so that makes it some of our most heavily used public land, public park space, but we're not investing in it as if it matters and as if it is the most valued space. So that's the frame we bring to this. We start from the kind of land space of it and ask what we want from our shared public space and how we can act together to make it better. What's so interesting about this is that schools, what you said is so powerful because schools take up so much of the land within our cities, but we don't think about that land as part of kind of the bigger picture of our public space. And so this is really an interesting holistic look that I don't think is necessarily new. My understanding is in Scandinavia, many countries are looking at it more holistically that this is all part of the public land and their country, but in the United States, that's not necessarily a common practice is my understanding, right? Right, right. And I also co-founded an organization called the International School Grounds Alliance. And so we meet with colleagues from Europe and Asia and elsewhere and look at how they use land and we're trying to essentially with green school years America here, trying to look at which of those ideas would fit in our context that have been our tried and true and that have resulted in large scale shifts that are really positive for kids and the environment. And so we look to Berlin, Germany, for example, where 25 years ago they made a law that every school property and I think every parcel has to absorb all of the rain that falls on it. And with that one public policy change, 400 schools almost completely unpaved about 20, 25 years ago. And now they have what they call sponge school yards which absorb all of their storm water and which have forests on all the school grounds. And so you have kind of the ideal setup for climate resilience and nurturing children in park-like spaces. And so that's what we're trying to model. We know it works, it's been done. It's been done decades ago. We're slow to join. Yeah. Right. And so I wanna also link to your book, Asphalt to Ecosystems, which Asphalt will goes in more in depth than in the concepts that you're talking about. And but a couple of things. It's a win for children, right? But it's also a win for cities from what I'm hearing. It's a micro, it's starting with the schools and it's a micro ecosystem of what you want your cities to be, which makes perfect sense. So thanks for that setup and that context setting for what you do, the really important work. And what I wanna now talk about this crazy moment in time that we're in with in the middle of a pandemic and with COVID-19 and the work that you've done has become incredibly relevant during COVID-19. And so can you tell us why? Why is it relevant? And how your organization is responding? Sure. Yeah, this time has been, as we all know, just an incredibly challenging one. And from a school perspective, it's really hard for schools to reopen with physical distancing measures in place because our buildings just weren't built to have enough space inside for kids six feet apart, get them in the classroom. And they weren't built with ventilation systems capable of filtering a pandemic from the air. So we have space problems and air quality problems inside our buildings. And we also have, we know that kids during this time are experiencing trauma in their lives from separation from one another, from watching family members or friends be ill during the pandemic. So they're gonna be returning to school with a lot of mental health problems and also adults also are feeling that stress. And so bringing them outside, not only has more space and better air quality, but also the therapeutic value of landscape is right there. We know that trees and nature calm our nervous systems and help us reduce stress and be able to focus better. And so we see that as a positive for going outside as well. And it's also being online has also caused an exacerbated inequalities, existing inequalities in our system. And it's vitally important that we bring as many kids back, particularly the most vulnerable as soon as possible so that they can have caring, nurturing, stable environments at school with adults who they can, who will support them in all ways. And so bringing kids back and not everyone has been able to access Wi-Fi equally or access their computers equally. And so we've seen massive learning loss. So returning to school as a priority but doing so in a way that is healthy and within health guidance is very important. So to meet that need and to address those concerns, we collaborated with four other, three other partners, Florence Hall of Science, which is a science museum, 10 strands, which is a nonprofit and San Mateo County Office of Education to create something called the National COVID-19 Outdoor Learning Initiative, which supports schools and districts around the country and their efforts to be open safely and equitably using outdoor spaces as strategic cost-effective tools that can maximize the number of kids who can safely return to campus with physical distancing. And we've been building this initiative over the last two and a half, three months, 53 months. And we're joined now by about 15 other organizations and hundreds of volunteers who are helping us write an online free how-to manual. So if a school or district wants to be able to say, says, yes, this is a good idea. I wanna take our kids outside to solve those problems we're talking about. How do we do it? And we wanna have the answers to how do you do it on our website? And we are, it's not gonna be one giant manual that's downloadable as a book. It's more of a series of frequently asked question answers that are set out to explain to different communities or different people within educational systems how this might work. And we have some of the pieces already online the site planning pieces, for example, that will help a principal work with their teachers to walk their site and see where classes could physically sit and think about what the materials would be that they would use and what it might cost and run through some of the logistics to figure out how they can go outside. There's lots of other pieces of the manual coming soon. And we know that schools have very different types of landscapes. And so we're also thinking about if you don't have enough space on your own school ground how might you go to a local park or it was a street like we're doing for restaurants in so many cities to have space outside. And we're also seeing this as a potential new plan A for example, so schools right now their first plan is to go online or to go inside. So we're saying in general, what if your plan A could be going outside and staying outside whenever conditions were right for your school to be outside and then coming in, going to the back up plan of online or inside when you need to. And so for some schools that those conditions shift with the weather and so it's too hot in the fall in Southern California that you might wait until it cools off. If it's too cold in the Northeast in the winter you might come in when it gets really cold. And so we're helping with things through some of the logistics around what would make it easier to stay out for plan A longer like adding tents or making sure every kid has the right clothing to be outside. Right, right. And I love that this is the plan A that you're thinking about. You said a few things that you guys have built a toolkit for schools to be able to navigate this new territory. So we're gonna link to the National COVID-19 Outdoor Learning Initiative where it has all of the toolkit and all the information around this. So for our audience members to access it. And you said something interesting around the weather because I think that that's probably a pushback that many folks have. Whether it's too hot or too cold. And when we had a chat before this I said, well Sharon I have a bunch of communities and the Dakotas how are they gonna do this? And you talked a little bit about the working groups and the regions and you told me a little bit about a working group from Vermont and Maine and how they're thinking about it. Could you share a little bit about that and how they were thinking about the outdoor learning? Sure, so we've had 10 working groups working on this on various aspects of these questions for the last couple of months. And one of them is the outdoor infrastructure working group which has been focusing on questions about weather and where we will put our weather based answer document online or idea document really online in the next couple of weeks. It's almost finished. And I think it's, I think that responses to weather are very cultural more than driven by the actual temperature. The schools in the Northeast tell us they're comfortable being outside, many of them, until 10 degrees. I'm from Miami, so that sounds crazy. Exactly, it's in Florida, people might think it's cold. When I've been in Florida people have told me it's cold at 50, right? We come inside too cold for recess sometimes at 35, 40. So I think it's relative and that's okay. We're just trying to help people be comfortable where they are. I think it's more focused more on the idea of adults can relate to the concept of outdoor dining and wanting to be outside and those picnic tables with the umbrellas and sitting outside in a comfortable place. And so how do we extend the comfort in the restaurant context when the adults are dining? We put up shade umbrellas, we pull out heaters if we need to when it's a little cold. And some of those, of course, need to be checked to meet safety standards for children which are generally built, but the idea is generally the same. How do you feel more comfortable outside when everyone has a warm enough coat and rain boots if it's raining? There are these fabulous head to toe jumpsuits for rain that forest schools, even up in the North, use to have their kids outside all day, even when it's damp, the kids enjoy it. But the idea is to make people comfortable. So if that involves a tent, put up a tent, there's many solutions. And I think we will be outlining those and describing what they are in this document. Right. And so for folks who wanna look more at the working groups we're also gonna link to specifically those working groups. And so you talked a little bit about whether it's a tent or whatever, this doesn't have to be incredibly fancy what outdoor learning looks like. So I would like to ask for us to flash up. We have a couple of pictures of what this could look like for, were these pilots sharing or prototypes of what the outdoor learning could look like? Or is this an actual example? This is an actual example from a school called Goldston Education in El Cerrito, California where they had a running, they were running a summer program and they built outdoor classroom spaces to run their summer program. And they had a COVID health protocol that they used that kept everyone healthy all summer. And they've just reopened with a waiver from the health department because their protocol meets code for the fall. So they're now in session as well using this space although it's transformed to now have a bigger tent over it. Amazing. But it's not fancy, but it does the job, right? And then here's another example that we pulled. Can you tell us about this one? Yeah, it's the same school. And this is an example of we're recommending that schools look first to what they already have before they buy anything new. And so these were desks that were literally in the school's basement that weren't, they were in storage, they weren't being used. And so they pulled them out and made them their outdoor learning stations and they just added a tent so that it would stay out of the sun and out of a light drizzle. And so that's what they use also in the summer, same school. Great, great. So with this, before we take some questions from the audience, I wanna ask you, obviously this is a stressful time for all of us with COVID, but with crisis brings opportunity. And I think the fact that we're all talking about this, the fact that so many schools, that you're leading the way to our thinking about how do we leverage the outdoors? What do you think is potentially the opportunity for the future of how we think about schools and outdoor spaces in our cities? Well, it's been really exciting to see schools and districts try outdoor learning for the first time. We've been, one of our working groups, I didn't mention earlier was, is a group that's a community of practice for early adopter schools and districts who are waiting for the manual to come out for diving right in and making plans and some of them already have opened outside. And so I think what we've seen from that experience is that some schools that I'd never tried after our learning are considering this to be an option to go to scale with right now. And we hope that once they're out there that they'll find themselves really comfortable in this environment. And just as when we move restaurant dining outside, we find ourselves really comfortable out there and say, why don't we sit inside all the time when there's all this nice, it's nice to be outside. So we hope that a lot of schools will see that. We hope that they will also see that there are hands-on learning resources all around them if you go outside. And if it's a school's first time outside, they'll probably take their indoor curriculum out, which is great. But when you've been out there for longer, you can start to build on and add to the resources you have in your teaching toolbox by using the environment as something to learn from as well as in. Yeah, and I wonder Sharon too, if there's an opportunity for us to just be reimagining the relationship that we have between parks and schools too. You said that now some schools are potentially leveraging parks and rec during this time too. So we'll see. Definitely, and one of our working groups is working on the topic specifically about how to best set up relationships between school districts and park systems and the city who might be able to open the sidewalk or go close streets temporarily, like they're doing in New York City right now as they plan to scale up and so we're trying to help make that easier. Schools and parks haven't traditionally in the United States been part of the same planning unit as they are in Europe where it's just a little easier to plan together, but they are both public lands for public benefits and it would be wonderful to see them weaving their bowls together and collaborating more in the future as well. Absolutely, especially in our denser communities. Okay, great, so let's take some questions that we have from the audience. So the first one that I see is around a question around engagement. So how engaged have families and their students been willing to be and what have been some best practices and engaging with the families during this time? We have another working group working on community engagement recommendations and those will be online shortly. We are recommending that the communities be involved in the decision making that the schools are going through right now and I think parents are super involved as our teachers in responses to COVID. Everyone wants to keep everyone else, they want to keep themselves and everyone else healthy and safe and so I think that's been the priority. It's been kind of a triage moment of how do we do this? And it's easy to overlook all the people who should be involved in that conversation, but we definitely think that all people who are affected, parents, students, teachers, principals should be asked what they want for their school and be part of the conversation to craft the solution that they'd like. Absolutely. And so there's a question, kind of a follow up around this. For schools that maybe aren't on board for outdoor learning, are there any techniques or part of a toolkit that can help persuade them perhaps to get on board? Yeah, I think that there are, I mean, you can come outside, it's beneficial to be outside as much as possible. So that could be during class time, but it also could be at lunch or at the school's certain breakfast and those are times of days when all the kids and all the adults who are eating will have their masks off. So what better time to be outside where the air is fresh and the breeze is blowing and transmission rates are much lower. So just having meals outside is important, having PE outside, potentially having music outside if you can space kids apart, having art or a library outside, things like that. We spoke with one librarian who had designed a whole outdoor library program because she knew that she was gonna be asked to see 500 kids at her school and wanted to make sure that they were not all coming through an indoor space where she was. And so she created an outdoor library program. So it's not just the classrooms, definitely any specialty programs benefit from being outside. So the more of the day that can be out the better. Absolutely. So one of the things that you said was around dressing appropriately, right? And especially as weather is gonna be changing. And so there's a question kind of around the equity piece of that. And so, how can we ensure that children have the proper clothes to be able to withstand the cold weather for outdoor learning? Have you guys put any thought into that? Yes. We think that the clothing should be considered part of the infrastructure for outdoor classrooms and that it should be budgeted for along with the tents and seating. That it is something that every child needs. And so schools could handle that differently to assess how many of what they need to buy for clothing, but we think that they should check and make sure that every child has warm enough clothes and either talk to retailers who might be able to give them bulk purchases of new items or some, we've heard at least one district talking about trying to source high quality used clothing to be able to hand it out for free as well because they didn't have a budget for it yet. But we think that it's central to be able to do it. And the best way to do that is to think of it as infrastructure for being outside. It's part of the gear that's needed. And so it should be provided by the same centralized school processes that are building outdoor classrooms. Absolutely. I love that. It's part of the infrastructure. It is just part of what has to be done. When I was in Copenhagen, Sharon, I think I told you this before, but when they had bad weather, when I claimed there was bad weather, they said, no, no, no, no. There's no such thing as bad weather. There's just bad clothes. And that we all, that you just have to be prepared. But making sure that our children are protected is critical. So it seems like you're absolutely thinking about that. So there's a question around, and you highlighted this about the budgeting piece and that you put this in the budget. But of course, schools don't have as much resources as they've had before. Many are really stressed actually financially. And so what part of the school budget are you recommending that we pull these funds for to implement these ideas around the outdoor learning? Have you guys thought about that? Yeah, I think that budgets follow priorities. And it's a question of making this a priority. When everyone thought that plan A should be online learning, the funds came out of the woodwork to buy computers. And also the indoor screens, like pieces of plexiglass are going in everywhere. That money is coming from, is because schools are focusing on indoors as a priority. It exists. And we imagine that that can be shifted when you say our priority is to be outside. The same resources that fed those pieces of the budget could potentially feed outdoor learning. We have heard some school districts are using CARES Act funds to build outdoor classrooms as they would to shift indoor classrooms. We've heard others doing fundraisers around their programs. But I think that we need to put it in the same category as providing the infrastructure to go online or providing the infrastructure to be safe inside and thinking about what are the costs to society if we can't get our kids back in a safe way. All those parents who are out there trying to work with kids at home or whose equity-wise kids who can't access any school unless they come back. And if inside doesn't have enough space and not enough air quality, not good enough air quality, then we can't shift that piece of the economy forward. And so I think it should be a priority and should be prioritized in the budget space. Absolutely, it is what you said earlier and we have to wrap up, but the time flew by. But this is about being plan A, right? This is plan A and this is the priority. We're in a crisis and we have to figure out how to make sure this is a priority within our communities and how this is a priority for our kids. And so with that, Sharon, thank you so much for talking with us about how we can leverage green spaces for our schools during this very, very dynamic time during the pandemic. I really appreciate it. I appreciate your leadership during this time and how you are working with hundreds and hundreds of schools across the country. There were a bunch of questions in the chat around looking at pictures, finding out more information for everyone who wants to have more information. We linked everything into the chat box below in the Zoom webinar. And so you can have access and it's really, really easy to go on Green School Yards website and everything is on there around the COVID response where you can get more involved and where you can learn practically around how to do this in your community. Good luck, Sharon, with your work and thank you for sharing this very, very valuable information. For our viewers out there, next week, we are going to have Gabe Klein on our show and we'll be talking about the future of budgeting and how cities can really look at their budget and during this really difficult dynamic time. And so with that, see you next Tuesday at 1 p.m. Eastern. Take care.