 Now, you know, Jaco and I are not afraid of a little deeper meaningful. We do it in our own private time, not necessarily always on the podcast or social media, but today is a really nice little conversation that we should all have a little bit more. And those of you that kind of know a little bit about me and follow my general thoughts ago on my head will know that I'm a fan of these kind of like philosophical conversations where we challenge ourselves to think a little bit deeper. And this is exactly what that is. We don't really talk about anything specific because that's the whole point of philosophy, Jaco, you know, there is no specific. She can just talk about whatever you want. We go wide and we go deep simultaneously. If that's even possible. This for me is one of those where it's like, if me and Tim lived in Australia, I feel like we'd hang out with Jack. That's where we're at. And that's what's that's what's quite that's what's quite cool. I feel like probably Tim, you could go back to to the days of being on the beach and just like smoke a couple of doobies and then you'd have some like really wacky conversations with Jack. Good times. Good times. Am I allowed to say that on the phone? Anyway, whether I have the you can you can leave that in or edit it out. Tim's not made a comment there. I'm going to leave him guessing, Jaco. I'm going to leave him guessing. We're going to get into podcasts in a second. But before we do that, we need to take about Black Friday. Black Friday is on. The only ways you don't know that is if you live in a box these days, because Black Friday, I don't know if you know, Jaco, it's kind of a thing. It is a thing. No one even knows when Black Friday actually is because people live like plug it all month. We're not like that. We just we've tried to keep it to just a crazy amount. But what is crazy is the offer on our best programs, best and most popular. Well, they're all are they the best if maybe it's there. I think I'm going to put out there. I think looking at the work that we did on this program is the best. And I would put our handstand programs up with the best handstand programs in the world because it's coached really well. Obviously, it's based on the scientific evidence of God. You're trying to learn something quite complicated and we properly did a job on this one. It's not just like here's 50 jewels. It might get your handstand. We're like, here's 10 drills that will get you a handstand. And I'm 100% sure if you put the time in using our program, you will learn to handstand. So that's been on your to-do list for forever or only just recently. There is probably no better time to get the world leading handstand program at a reduced price. So it's 50% off. They're normally 99 quid. So you get it for 49 quid, which I think if you do the math, it's probably slightly more than 50% off, but it's just the way the thing. So anyway, you're all good for 49 quid. That gets you buy it. It's not a membership or anything like that. It's 49 quid. You get the program for lifetime access to all of that. And if you are going for the frog to handstand programs with our two programs, the frog to handstand is about building up the strength and the control, the learn to handstand is about the fastest way into getting into your handstand. There is assessments to track where you're starting pointers. There's assessments all the way through to track your progress. You've got support from the online community with the people that are following all of our programs and also obviously us as the coaches, me, Tim, the rest of the coaching team, they're on the online platform that you get to interact with, ask questions and yeah, support you along your way and your journey to learning how to handstand. So bag a bargain before the offer ends 31st of November. So bag it before the end of the month, 49 quid, whichever one you choose, maybe even one, both, you can work through them at a different times. You maybe work on them to handstand first and then you're like, I'll have the strength later. What do you get out there and learn something cool? Code is Black Friday in Capitals. Capital edits, baby. We've done. We've got this far through the intro. We've not even said the guest's name. It's Jack White from a tuned. It's philosophy. You've got to roll it. There's no rules. Do we even have a name? Am I even Jacko? Well, he's introduced himself in a minute so you can find out all about it and we can listen to a really nice and reflective conversation. Enjoy Jack White on the movement strength and play podcast. Roll that jingle. You're listening to the movement strength and play podcast by the School of Calisthenics. Here are your hosts, Tim and Jacko. Jack White, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing, buddy? I'm well. Thanks, mate. Thanks for having me on. We're excited for this conversation to go to potential. We like me and Tim every now and again. We like to go and take a bit of a deep dive. I like to go deeper and get a bit personal. So I'm excited to go to potentially some new depths with you. For maybe the one listener of the movement strength and play podcast that for some reason hasn't come across to you on Instagram, doesn't know who you are, for that idiot, would you give us a bit of an intro as to, you know, what is Jack White? What is it tuned about? Because we're looking at this sort of marriage of philosophy and strength training or movement, which I think is a fascinating one. Yeah, yeah, it's been a trip for me. It's a beautiful world to explore. Really, where I'm sitting at the moment is helping people understand their bodies, to heal their bodies through movement, and then obviously progress towards a kind of strength, which is uncommon, fluid, real world, exciting. And alongside that, just using the whole practice of training to really go deep and get to know yourself in as many ways as possible. And that's where the philosophy part comes in. And I kind of came across the blend, I guess, by accident. I was initially a philosophy student years ago at uni. That was my degree. And at the time I loved strength training, weightlifting, a bit of calisthenics too. But I never made any connection between the two. It was very much like I have the head part of myself and the body part of myself. And I've got like the knowledge and it's book knowledge. And then I have my training, which is very physical. And I think as I learned, as I went through life, went through a few hardships, relationships ending or like my dad passed away at one point, injuries, things like this. I started to have to think about why I was training and what all that philosophy knowledge that I built actually meant for my life practically. So that's a tune. It's bringing it into the body, making it real. So Jack, bring that to life a little bit for people that are listening. So let's talk about where do you, you can start on either way. How does that look from a philosophy perspective coming into movement or movement coming into philosophy? Like just give it, what does your training look like? And how does this kind of like blend really? Yeah, give people a bit of a mental picture about how it kind of all clicks. Yeah, sweet. So from the movement coming into philosophy side, it could mean considering what training gives you. So like what is it that it's filling within you? How is it enriching your life? When you're moving, when you're doing an exercise, perhaps when you're approaching a session or even a particular rep of an exercise, how are you approaching it? What are you looking for from it on a technical level within your program? What level is it giving your particular emotion that you might be looking for and how is the way you execute that one tiny piece reflective of how you want to live on the broader level? And when you go back from the philosophy angle, it's basically like if you learn a new idea, then it's trying not to leave that new idea at the conceptual level. It's trying to actually chew on it, understand it, put it to use in your life and digest it before you then go and hunt for more and more new ideas. Yeah, there's something for me around this and it's one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you as well of like and shout out to a friend Sarah Moore who put me on to you and one of the first things I come across with your content was like some handstand work but rather than just sort of putting across the same relatively like teaching points that everyone's doing to some degree or just, you know, people teaching slightly, but you were coming at it from a completely different angle and I was like, okay, this is interesting and me and Tim have been on a journey since we finished, used to play like rugby where your philosophy and idea of your body and training is very different to then how we think about it now and I went through a transition over a number of years of like, you know, when you're playing rugby and you're just trying to be the best you can be and you have to hammer yourself to get better and you've got a coach pushing you and all the lights are pushing you, it's all push, push, push, push, push and it took me a long time to get out of that mentality of playing rugby and going into calisthenics and I probably got to a point where I was like, I thought I'd made quite a nice change here and I'm a bit more in tune with my body and thought that was sort of the journey complete almost whereas recently I've been reflecting and thinking on my body, how I'm training, how I feel and feel far more connected now in a way that I'm the best to describe it, it's like I used to look at an injury and feeling of pain and had many of them playing rugby of like my body's let me down and when my body can't do something it's like I'm having this tussle between me and my body even though we're the same thing whereas now I'm seeing it in a much different way of like my body's going, hey Jacko, like you're doing something wrong I'm doing my best and I'm adapting but part of this is like I'm trying to talk to you and like let's listen and let's do this thing together like probably sounds a bit crazy, a bit wacky and if I'd heard myself say that like five years ago I'd be like, what's this guy on about but am I on the right lines of like how you would if you was working with me how you would be sort of approaching that and what would some of your advice is to be for people that are feeling disconnected from themselves in their bodies when they're training? That would be exactly the line of questioning that I'm all about. The advice is listen and remember that it's you in there, it's you in your body this is something that a wonderful yoga teacher of mine said and I think he was told by a wonderful yoga teacher of his but remember it's you in there and this attitude particularly with sport where you're using your body as a tool to reach an external measure or succeed in some way but you're not listening to your body, it's just a slate you just need it to get the work done that's something that I totally relate to that's where I came from really and I think pushing my body to the extreme without having that dialogue of listening and observing was the reason why I've had so many injuries and then by extension obviously as you said you'd learn from those injuries but the advice to someone who's starting out or who is perhaps not wanting to learn the hard way is to listen to the whisper before you get hit by the brick I think a few of us have been training for a while we would understand that one and what about for someone there'll be me five or me ten years ago if I was listening to this ten years ago I'd be like what are those three blokes on about like come on princess let's go train let's go smash ourselves because that's the way you get better maybe it's China can you introduce some softer concepts to someone like that or actually you don't need to because that person is going to they need to go on their own journey to come to a point where they're then actually ready to open up to some ideas around this that's such a huge question man it's a really good question and I often wrangle with that one as well let's go deep because I think if I rewind to the time when I started training which would have been probably a bit over ten years ago I don't think I would have understood that and I think people did tell me I think people did try to tell me I had well-meaning mentors I had some older guys in the school gym when I started training and they were planting the seeds there and I intellectually sort of understood that yes you know if your stress bucket overflows you're going to get sick or if you under recover you're going to run into issues I think I kind of just had to learn it my own way and unfortunately suffering tends to be the best teacher for a lot of these big lessons so yeah I think the best you can do if you're trying to help someone out is just plant the seed you know but if you the more pusher you are about trying to get an idea across it's almost like the more that person feels it's not their own idea and then they go even harder disengage so yeah but I do think it's one of those things where like the longer you train and the more you have to consider your own longevity the more the open dialogue with your body has to be there and life will eventually at some point humble each of us to the point where we have to listen but I'm not expecting many 17 year olds surging with testosterone smashing the way it's after rugby to I think it's fair enough that they feel pretty invincible let's talk a little bit Jack about I think from my experience as strength and condition coach working with athletes over a decade of behaviour change and this is often going to link back into philosophy and then sometimes identity so if someone identifies as a I train a certain way let's leave that as a blank and that certain thing that I'm doing is breaking me and I keep getting injured how can people navigate the way out of that injury cycle so we can look at it from a very physiological perspective and go okay we're not moving well so let's fix this kind of like this issue but what we'll see a lot of times is people just go round and round and they're kind of stuck in this cycle of performance or training a certain way injury and then they go back there's got to be some philosophy in there about being able to switch the way that you do things because what you're currently doing isn't working let's be honest training is supposed to make us feel better not worse and if we're continually getting injured it's not serving the purpose apart from maybe like the immediate reward but as you said that longevity and actually long-term progression is really kind of what we're interested in as well as I feel great after that one session but what do we look like in 2, 3, 4, 10 years what are your thoughts around that sort of stuff because these things run deep right totally man it goes super deep this is why it's almost like the more you're in coaching the more you realize how you could sort of go off on a tangent into like neuroscience and really like spirituality even if we're considering the idea of what is the self and who am I it's super relevant I mean if you think of the function of an identity it's probably a way of creating predictability in your life and doing things in a particular consistent way you know like how does Jack behave how does number 17 on the pitch behave how do they need to behave like what set of attributes do they have which make them fill that role effectively you know within a team or you know we're all playing these roles in different ways I definitely think that's tricky um you see it for sure with athletes I even think you see it with business owners sometimes but in a different way maybe not around training but the stress thing like if I'm a business owner does that mean that I have to control everything and be on top of everything all the time and if that's how I started and I then progressed to the point where I need to relax and balance my life a bit more how do I remain a business owner but change my relationship with the business or you know if I'm like I'm a rugby player how do I change my relationship with rugby so that it's not associated with that same make or break put your body on the line all the time flog yourself mentality I almost think sometimes distance helps sometimes a break can help like for me I felt that I was in a bit of a loop for a while with sort of gymnastics style training I felt like almost a bit of a failure because I wasn't achieving particular skills that I'd had in mind for a while and like I was pushing myself to train really hard to get them but then I would always drop off in my consistency and there would always be this internal resistance and it's like I want to achieve let's say a first all the press but does the present me in my body right now want it or is it that I think Jack should be able to do it because that's what Jack does you know in that example I ended up basically stopping training and just doing nothing but surf every day for four months just didn't fucking touch any form of strength training and then I came back was able to reframe it and have a different relationship with training and I just for the last four months I've just been loving it again absolutely loving it and it just doesn't have the heaviness anymore just progressing yeah definitely I think that that like agility within your the sorts of training that you do I think is so important because we kind of become boxed in don't we in our own minds and also in the communities that we spend time with so if we're surrounded by and we can't get away from it right so if you train at home like a lot of our audience will do and they're doing calisthenics they probably follow quite a lot of calisthenics stuff on social media so they're constantly being sort of shown what other people are doing how other people's training is progressing these are things I should be doing if you're into weightlifting or you go to a bodybuilding gym we go to CrossFit whatever it might be that influences constantly sort of telling you who you are to a point and it is that kind of bravery and yeah so as you say it's like I don't really I'm just doing this because this is what I want to do rather than being like I might have done calisthenics for five years like I'll give you an example I've just joined a CrossFit box like two to three weeks ago having done calisthenics for seven years Jaco maybe something like that and there's a lot of that time when Jaco resonated with this I saw him not at the same time as you mentioned it where we were learning skills because we thought that that's what we should be able to do to have credibility and relevancy in that calisthenics space and as we've matured and come through it we've kind of gone like I got the stage where I was training hard stuff like particularly around hand balancing like trying to get full planche and yeah I just I've stopped enjoying it because the training was like grinding into not in terms of like necessary intensity that was difficult but it was just like the mindset around that sort of like I've got two isometric holes today and I got some points like I don't need to do this and I'm not enjoying it so why do I train and it was it wasn't it went past the stage of going I just don't feel like I have to do it right now and I kind of flitting out of these things in terms of I feel like I want to do it and I play around with it for a bit and I don't but I've over the last kind of two years I've much kind of like settled into because this is me and this is how I want to train and I do bits of this but I've kind of like I don't feel at the moment at least the need to push down to harder and harder skills because I'm enjoying some variability and a bit of diversity in my training and I think to your point it's just like that sometimes comes with a break it sometimes comes with a bit of just courage to step out and go I'm just going to change the way I'm doing things whether that's coming into calisthenics or going out of calisthenics I don't really care what I'm more interested in is people's wellness and enjoyment of what they're doing because that's what's going to actually bring more fulfilment to their lives there's because there's this this tension I always think behind I think actually tip you or you both mentioned it and Tim with your start I'd be questioning around like identity and if someone we identify with either the sport we do or the job or if Jack you mentioned about like business owners you're like identify being like the person of the business if you started it and we I always think that because I definitely have it myself and I think you just see a lot of a lot of us that we have this there's this tussle between we like to be part of something and community is important for our like mental well being so to be part of something we sort of like then go in a group or we like take on the label of being a calisthenics guy or a crossfit guy or girl or whatever it may be and then at the same time that which then makes us feel part of something which is good the same time it then sort of like can make us feel like we're then and then in this box and like you know me and Tim have spoken about this plenty of times before and it's just a good example to go well what is calisthenics we talk about coming from two Greek words calisthenics meaning beauty and strength it doesn't mean like a people like don't mean it doesn't doesn't specifically mean that and if it means body weight training then anyone that's doing body weight training they're doing that and what that looks like for each person I think it's far greater has far more power is far more beautiful when it's like and this is the conversation I'd like to have with people if someone says like I do calisthenics or I do body weight training whatever it is okay what does that look like for you and if that looks like hard planches and front leavers like great but if that just if that doesn't and it means something pretty different for you but it's just you doing body weight training in whatever form it is like let's have that conversation because ultimately I'll say this before to Tim there's whatever whether you do crossfit whether you play even I always think of like golf is like the ideal sport because you never really have to retire from golf like people do people take up golf when they retire so like you could potentially but there's even a point where you become too old and too fragile you can't even swing that club anymore so whatever sport that you do or every exercise that you do at some point you're not going to be able to do it anymore so like I like doing human flags well there'll be a point when I'm too old and too weak and too rubbish to be able to do human flags anymore and whether I ever break now to give us that mental clarity but being able to accept that and be comfortable with when you take all those things away am I still happy with myself when I can't do any of these things that make me feel good and I think that's a big challenge incident Jacko before we let Jake respond to all of that little download I am looking forward to we've like I'm looking forward to the viral video in like 30 years time when you're 70 or 80 maybe and you're like because I look at these people and you see these things on Facebook or whatever and I'm like here's these like 90 or I was going to cross with it every weekend and it's like I love that I just think that's brilliant so you I think you're going to have to wait another 30 or 40 years for your first viral video but it's going to be a good one when it comes around Jack's looking at my hair again that grey guy I thought he was 55 already I want to be the old brick dude you know like where it's like ooh you know like you have to get like the suntan as well which I'm never going to get here in the UK but it's like I did but like really old and it's like go on look at that guy yeah you look at those guys and you're like fuck me you're in good shape but you also look a little bit like some kind of leather couch do you eat I don't know what's going on here but you can't have it all can you you've got to pick what you want yeah any thoughts on that Jack we just give you a proper download you can just go for it on any of that love it I love it man I feel like it's always easiest to talk about things in reverse order you know when people ask you like three questions it's almost easy to answer the third one then the second one then the first one I don't even know if I asked a question I think I just said a lot of stuff but yeah well like with the aging thing you know yeah what are we going to do when we're old like there's a point of deterioration as much as I hate the the kind of cop out of oh I'm getting old I can't do this like I don't believe that you should just resign to that I think you should absolutely challenge it but there's also a point where you have to accept that things will deteriorate and at that point I think it becomes useful to to be familiar with the idea that you can practice on this spectrum from outward and externally focused goals to inward and sort of sensation based goals so like you see this really well in in dances I think but pretty much pretty much anyone who brings that inward intention into their movement practice so on one end of the spectrum there's like you know full planches or there's like a one arm front lever or whatever or a one arm handstand and one finger at the end of the spectrum one finger one arm as close on the other end of the spectrum there's like I'm hardly even moving but I'm really feeling this subtle movement within my body and I don't even know whether I'm doing it or whether it's just happening by itself you know stuff like the breath or like the heartbeat or like playing with the nervous system and stuff so there's that whole continuum and I hope that when I'm old and you know in firm or that if I were to get severely injured that I could find just as much joy and discovery in that subtle practice as in the more extreme outward practice I think that's something a lot of the the sort of yogi masters represent quite well the way you do what you do is equally as rewarding as how far you can take it externally I think this is an interesting point there when you see people I feel like I've sort of moved to this place and I've been training for a long time but where you find those people who are probably a little bit more mature in years but they have just got that real kind of like peace and contentment around training and you often see you made a point before about sort of 17 year olds full of testosterone huge there's that phase that you go through and this is when I started to this kind of tone of my voice I'm like this is coming like a sage of like an old man in the industry but it's been a while since we started and you start and you just you just find it's kind of like yeah it's just a general piece ago and this is how I train and this is how I progress and I don't feel like I'm keeping up with anybody anymore I'm doing me and but I'm 41 years old like I've been training I've been a strength and condition coach for years and before that the decent amount of training as well it takes time to kind of go through it and this is kind of I guess a go full circle back on to the question I asked before is like what I've learned over the years of coaching athletes and you see people in lifestyle around you in your community and circles as well as like people won't change unless they want to change so people listening to this as Jaco said before won't change if they don't want to change or they haven't they're not brought into a place where they got to confront some of this sort of stuff but is there anything that you think is useful for people in terms of like just okay someone's got an open mind kind of listening to some of this stuff but where do we do we need to change is that something that we need to do or is it how do we start this internal working conversation on ourselves that basically starts to bring us that maturity probably around what training actually means to us which is probably kind of and what encapsulates the kind of conversation so far hmm yeah do we need to change this is an interesting one because you can really get on the escalator or the hamster wheel probably more of a hamster wheel of progressing but never feeling adequate and never feeling fulfilled with your progress and even then you can have that in two ways you know there are those of us who we might have reached a point where we're not satisfied with our progress but we're very much satisfied that we're following our own process so like we know we'll never get there and we're going to keep striving for things and it never ends but you don't postpone your gratification you enjoy the struggle you find something in the day to day um and I think I think that's the beauty of these older guys who like find their rhythm and they've been doing it for years and they're comfortable in their own skin and the way they do it and at the same time they're really they're still progressing because the thing that I've been stuck with probably maybe like last year was this idea of yeah do I need to change at all do I like what's the point of training what's the point in progressing like you know I almost swung from being a 17 year old obviously you know got a few years older but I swung from that end of like it's all about progression to oh you don't need progression and all this stuff you know it's all bullshit it's just an internal game you just need to be happy within your skin and then you kind of oscillate back again and you're like well but I'm here for a while I'm probably going to be around for a bit I want to do some cool things with my life I should probably test my limits to some degree while I can and while I'm young so let's not make a huge deal of it but let's you know have a crack and it's maybe that temperance or that ability to take a little bit of both you know you experienced the contrast first like I went from you know full on power lifting and Olympic lifting and very blocky hard intense strength training to go out and very bendy portal snakey stuff and then I go back to like the more traditional and then I go back away from that again to some other creative thing and he sounds like the Balkan bending program team we've got this idea of a Balkan bendy program where someone wants to get big but you also want to get bendy which started off as a joke but it's actually something I'd like to do yeah that's what it's about man I think it's just about like bringing in bringing in all of it like giving a bit of love to all of it accepting that things are going to fluctuate and that you can try and have both and you should see if you can have both I think my philosophy around this at the moment is sort of going through a bit of an evolution to be honest and it's I've just come to kind of setting in my comfort comfortable place around being content with how I train and comfortable place not being in terms of not going to push stuff but just comfortable in terms of how I see things and how my landscape kind of looks around training and the crux of it for me is like you need a little bit of everything and you don't actually need to be absolutely like rock star smashing it on any one thing the fact that I'm kind of like pretty good at some calisthenics stuff like that's good and it will stay away from the kind of like the what that gives you from a logical perspective but I also think I should be able to be pretty good at like box jumps and lower body strength stuff because that's kind of life stuff that you want these are things that train which is going to help me to maintain my lifestyle as I get older and I need to be able to move a little bit as well but like going hard into yoga and that's all I do like you're just moving away from the center to one extreme where you're super bendy but let's be honest the majority of people and I know I say this and I always kind of like worry because I don't worry about it actually it's all that's easy to sleep but what I'm conscious of is people like if I say that a lot of people that do a lot of yoga aren't very strong that's true right so there are strong yogas don't get me wrong but like the general rule because we get really good at getting bendy we don't get really good at getting strong like a lot of people who do yoga can't do a pull-up for example and I think that's important in terms of just what the kind of physical attributes are that you are going to want for four years to come if you're going to go and live the life you want to live or if your lifestyle never requires to put you in a position where you might be able to need some body strength then maybe you don't but I just that's I just think there's this like Ido Portel said it well a while ago just like he's kind of first person I'd probably recognize as coining it but it probably came from somebody before that but it's generalism over specialism and I actually think that's where the money is for most people maybe not when you're younger maybe when you're younger specialised because you've got an opportunity to maybe go and do something but as you're training progressives and our audience is probably maturing with Jaco and I that generalism is a good place to be be okay at quite a lot of stuff and you're probably going to do really well Can I try and go like a layer deeper in when we're talking about purpose and I almost feel like you know he got a I haven't got kids but Tim's got two little ones and there'll be a point I imagine Tim where has Jack gone through that why phase you go like you know don't touch that it's hot why well because it will burn you why and then you've got to like answer questions of like like you keep going why why why why so like the per like going like being good at whatever training thing like why like why because I think a lot of the time there's this challenge of my purpose of my sense of like happiness or contentment being exploring different things that I can enjoy do I enjoy doing that just because I'm good at it and like stuff that I'm not good at I don't enjoy so then I like push into just the things that I feel like I'm good at because I get more enjoyment from that and being better at that is that going to make me then even happier but my purpose has surely got to be wider than that and that's why when we get like really really good at then our thing in training that might be one of the most might be the most one of the biggest things in my life for a lot of people we we still then feel not content and not actually happy even though we've completed the thing because in actual fact it's just a bit of a mirage around it's not it's not giving you that purpose but where do you when you're talking about the philosophy side of things like I've got now I've got no formal training at all in that whatsoever it's just like my own crazy mind going bunkers yeah I don't think you need formal training man I think that just watching the crazy mind and having good conversations is like the highest form of philosophy I reckon it's just fucking shit talking you come up with profound stuff when you talk shit it's amazing like yeah it shouldn't just be for books yeah I think the why thing is like some of us can't really help it you know I think some of us don't really grow up past that why thing and I personally feel like if I'm not asking why and if I don't have the freedom to ask why in my life then I feel kind of stifled but at the same time I can kind of infinitely regress into more and more and more why questions and overthink to such a degree that like I forget that you know there's enough meaning in just kind of feeling what is just just being with it you don't have to understand it to enjoy it kind of thing well I think about that too was like just riffing with this idea when I'm asking why I'm often if I'm intellectually asking why it feels like it's coming from up high in my head feels like it's very sort of calculating analytical and if I'm if I'm curious curiosity feels more like a bit of a full body state than asking why it's more like oh what happens if I do this so you can kind of ask why by doing something by trying something and then I think things like play are other great ways to open up this door of why we do things and what happens if and that can be like really embodied so I feel like there are different ways to ask this question too you know you can kind of wrap your brain around things and think why you can you can be curious by just exploring without an agenda you can put yourself in new environments new situations with new people maybe in a new sport and you can kind of use that to get answers to why questions without having to worry about thinking too much so that's really helped me because I've been someone who over thinks terribly and I find the more I just mix up my environment and go meet other people the more I find the answers I'm looking for without even having to constantly seek for them and be hungry for them I'm going to back to you guys I think it's an interesting one because it makes me think around that sort of clarity on purpose and I think again I don't want to make this sound like a generational conversation but I look back on my own my own sort of like history and be like well how long has it taken for me to get clear on my purpose like you kind of have a micro purpose like when I was at university the purpose was to get a degree have a good time play rugby and when I came out of university the purpose was to go traveling have a good time go scuba diving like there wasn't a kind of like a bigger purpose narrative because I was as you say you're exploring the world around you you're sort of going what is it that I actually want to do but I don't know how mindful I was at that time I was really seeking that thing I was kind of probably just quite living in the moment and having a good time but to your point that's kind of play right that's how we can start to refine and filter out what we like doing what we don't like doing why we do things what brings us enjoyment and fulfilment satisfaction what kind of sets us and doesn't resonate with us and we move away from I think that there's probably a space where you've got to find as you progress through adulthood of purpose becomes more clear because career becomes defined family becomes more defined that sort of so you're going to go I can now start to channel myself into these things which feel a little bit more permanent but then you kind of also then you hit people who have this kind of mid-life crisis because the whole thing is kind of caved in and gone like I don't really know what I'm doing here anymore so how like is that as you say that thing of play playing in a movement sense but playing with the world around you I think is also quite important it's just a constantly kind of just kind of flex your like your circle a little bit and just explore how that might kind of need to just adapt and evolve and then as we go back to as we've said before not being afraid to change like I read Adam Grant's book and think again like over the summer and really enjoy it it's a very simple easy way for people to understand a little bit about the power of not of knowing what you don't know and actually it's good to be wrong because if you're wrong you can be more right effectively for you on a personal level and not being able to not being afraid to kind of shift and change your mind I think that's a really powerful thing and I think within training that's a conversation we probably don't have very often so this is actually I think hopefully would be a little texture for people to just go away and it's a perfect philosophical conversation because it's absolutely no answers and just lots of stuff to go away and go I don't know it's kind of my brain hurt and I need to think about it yeah 100% it's like getting outside of your your norm getting outside of your usual environment and just being exposed to new ideas, new perspectives has to be like one of the most rapid ways to grow like and think of and like growth often tends to be a bit scary and you know it's comfortable to be within something you know and to do the same thing that you've done before but it's only comfortable until it starts to feel a bit too predictive or a bit too limiting you know and that's where I can relate professionally it almost seems like you get there's a financial incentive to be consistent and to put yourself in a box so you can be recognizable as being the guy who does this but on a personal level there's always a part of us that doesn't want to sacrifice another part of potential that we could have so it's really tricky there's balance I'm always playing with it trying to figure it out I don't know if I ever will but there's balance between willingly sacrificing things and saying no to things so that you can really dive into being good at one thing or just do good work in one field and at the same time stay open enough in what you interact with and who you interact with that you leave the door open for changing growth you know I find it I'm going to blow smoke up your arse now Jack but my wife is very uncomfortable at taking praise so we'll see if you feel uncomfortable it's just so refreshing to have a conversation with someone where just very openly going like well I ain't got figured out we may never have it figured out haven't got all the answers know some stuff that can help you if you want to go down that line and we'll explore that together I'm not going to fix you if you're injured you are the best version of yourself and you actually know we're just going to help explore this through movement and explore you get yourself to understand for a bit it's you because I know that I've been in this trap before where it's like I want to go see a physio and like physio fix me and it's like you're trying to like give the responsibility away and actually that just doesn't long term doesn't work and I'm very this is the one podcast Tim that I think would be fascinating for us in 10 years time when me and you were in fit with 50 like how is it then chat how is the philosophy or how is the ideas around trading and stuff changed again because I don't think there'll be many other podcasts that I'll want to listen back to in 10 years time to see what we were talking about because it was sort of like I think I feel like I'll I'll know where as I think that that's that this is that this is really really interesting and a little example where there'll be some people listening to this will be like guys you're going a bit fluffy where a practical example of this will be like my my sort of final thing before we wrap it up that we had a coach come in when I was playing rugby and he was he was Australian I think and he came in it was like a one-off session he was doing like so we're all like new coach for one session and he literally went and right guys there's the ball and you play what's the drill what we're doing whatever you want where are we what's the pitch you decide and we were all just like this is rubbish he doesn't know what he's talking about he doesn't give us any coaching like I remember just thinking this is just absolute garbage but because we were like being conditioned to tell me the rules tell me the constraints then I'll try and play the game that basically I already know how to play it rather than he gave us freedom and we literally couldn't handle the freedom and I feel like that's what this conversation has been a bit like for me there'll be people that will listen to it and go like they can't handle the freedom of like you didn't give me the top three things I need to do for my handstand or the top three things I need to do to stop being injured and that's that's where I'm yeah that's where I'm leaving this like being back in that place to be challenged again to go like take the freedom and like try to explore it unless I've missed the point no there is no point Jackie that's a beauty of philosophy there's no point sorry I've got one of them my dad said that he had a friend but he was at uni doing a philosophy degree and he had the exam question sat down the exam board and apparently the exam I don't know if this might be my dad talking a bit of like a bit of spice a bit of BS and maybe this is like a classic story and I've been led to believe my dad made this up or his mate had this but the question on the philosophy paper was is this a question that was the question write a write 10,000 words on that and he reckons his mate just wrote is this an answer and then walked out I love that that might be BS my dad might have had me passed down all year I'm not going to reverse your stories anyway Jack any final thoughts before you wrap this up mate it's been great to go through a little bit of a sort of slightly different conversation to what we would normally have and yeah just I'll pass a final word over to you if you've got anything you want to sign off with and tell people how to get in touch with you as well if they want to find out a little bit more for sure for sure yeah I think that maybe the crux of the whole thing there like what's it all about and also what's the role of a coach and someone like you know you guys putting out quality information and some of it will be like okay do this and some of it will be like explore this and then maybe occasionally there's something thrown out which is just here's a thing do what you want I think that the role I think of in my coaching because I do some one to one coaching the role that I play changes from person to person depending on how far into that process they are sometimes people want direct linear progression and then we'll go through another phase in their life where they just want exploration or any mix but the role of a coach or a teacher can kind of go from the instructor to someone who is just like a friendly face who understands you who's a reference point who's going to be there to sort of you know hold the fort or you explore I think it's really cool to be able to do both and in your own practice to do both too you know periods of I'm going to progress I want to be here and then periods of okay where am I now and what next and just keeping I guess a healthy balance between the two I love it Mate thanks so much for spending some time with us we really appreciate it and I'm sure there's a ton of stuff in there that people are going to go away in a cogitate sometimes throw that word they're going to go mull they're going to go and chew it if you like it cogitate is a good word so Jack where can people find you on Instagram at underscore attuned and my website attuned.space and that's about it and you can also send me an email you know I love chats like this and if anything here resonates with you just drop me a line say hi it's hello at attuned.space put all those in the show notes so people can click straight through thank you everyone for watching if you're watching on YouTube or listening on your favourite podcast platform thank you Jack for coming on Jack would love it if you gave the podcast a five star review wouldn't you Jack wherever people are listening to this from it's going to take you two minutes what does five stars even mean though exactly maybe one is the best but no generally just because someone decided it was five actually this is what I want people to do I want you to do a five stars because that just helps with the rankings and then I want you to write is this a review question mark and then you've nailed it then you've nailed it do it be that guy or girl be the first one the first one wins guys we haven't decided what that is perfect alright cheers Jack we've been touched again to you mate thanks a lot thanks very much guys chat to you soon there we go Timbo I told you you'd like this one a little bit fluff a little bit of depth a little bit of width bit of everything we went narrow and wide shallow and deep generous not specialist all that sort of good stuff take some of that away guys spend some time thinking about it and yeah if you want to change think about it again in six months and see what's changed I'm I'm now I'm sort of like asking the question do you even train bro with a completely with a completely different set of eyes yeah there's lots to take away from that one so enjoy it just as a reminder our Black Friday offer is currently on going by yourself handstand program if you've got stuck on a plateau or you really struggling to progress your handstand or you just want to get started any of those problems that you're having they're all dealt with in our coaching program for the handstands and we not just like a it's not just a page of like 20 exercises we actually explain the whole process there's a little bit of education learning is doing there and that in builds on your your actual understanding not only the handstand but also the philosophy of why you're doing what you're doing see great segue Timbo it's also you know it's literally it's broken down to modules sessions week by week so you know you've got the pathway there from literally beginner all the way into your handstand and the code is Black Friday in capitals Black Friday 50% off so rather 99 quid is 49 pounds one off purchase lifetime access money back guarantee if it don't get your handstand you like it give you money back I'm not bothered get involved we know it's good alright until next time keep exploring your odd butchered it Jacko until next time you go keep exploring your physical potential and your philosophy around training through movement strength and play I feel like the outro is we get into stage where it's almost like keep exploring your physical potential through movement strength and play and this other thing we just talked about anyway we'll talk about that offline brand meeting class dismissed