 I think that there is a question coming up. Jeff says, please describe the process for applying or beginning conversation on potential pilots. And Julian says, I don't have a direct question, but I would be interested to discuss where the largest knowledge gaps lay and cost-effective ways to close those. For example, looking at landings rather than transfecting for maximum sustainable yield. Thank you. I will pass it on now to Michael. Sorry, just to answer Jeff's question that, yeah, we're happy to support pilots in the region. We have much more detailed information on our website in terms of the framework itself. But we're also happy to advise on pilots outside the region. We've been talking to Canada and the U.S. and the U.K. and other organizations that are interested in testing parts of the ocean accounts methodology. So the website oceanaccountsunscapp.org has got a lot of detail there. And can you also respond to Julian's question about where the largest knowledge gaps are and cost-effective ways to close these knowledge gaps? The whole dynamics of fish stocks, estimating the fish stocks, fish catch, obviously, the illegal, unregulated, unreported landings. There's a big initiative about the the ports and getting countries to agree on reporting all landings. But yes, they're in terms of small scale fishers. Those are probably two of the biggest gaps. There is another question from Paul Steele from IED. Which countries are most advanced in terms of oceans accounts and how far have they got? We're still at the scoping stage. There have been a few historical initiatives that we're learning from. In fact, that was involved in a similar project in Indonesia. We weren't calling it ocean accounts over 20 years ago. But I think the idea of using the SEA as an accounting for oceans is fairly new. It's only been the last year or so that we've really been getting our teeth into it. We're doing pilots with Indonesia, Thailand, and talking to other countries, Vanuatu. We're open to discussing starting these pilots. We start with a scoping of what the issues are in a very broad sense. This is not only focusing on small scale fisheries, but it is including small scale fisheries. Some countries are more interested in sources of waste. Again, like I was saying, that's something in the stock and the catch. So I would say nobody's really ahead of the game yet. I was involved in a fairly large project in Canada three or four years ago. We were doing ecosystem accounting and including oceans. We see little glimmers of light and people have tried parts of this, but no one has really looked at it as a large integrated system. So we're looking forward to moving that forward. Maybe I would also like to share with the participants that IID has been working with many other stakeholders in trying to understand how we can bring together the efforts that a lot of people are doing in trying to reveal the small scale fisheries sector following strategies like the ones that Sarah presented, but putting them into the framework for the SIA accounts. And as Michael said, this is something that has been going on. Fisheries are reported in the system for national accounts every year, although it is very badly done. So one of the work that we're trying to do is encourage and sharing strategies to get better data into these coherent framework that speaks to each other. Michael, I was just wondering in terms of the development of the SIA and ocean accounts, what sort of interaction there is with the FAO in terms of fisheries data? Because really they're the kind of mean ones that are asking countries for the catch data and some other data around the fisheries. And I just wondered, you know, I'm there sort of in a position to kind of change or restructure how the data is being fed back to them from the member country. So I just wondered kind of what, you know, for what length there is there in the ocean account. Yeah, the FAO has been involved in the development of the SIA. And in fact, there's agriculture, forestry, and fisheries that FAO has taken the principles of the SIA to organize their own data. So there, at least the statistical group there is totally involved in the SIA and like they're looking to standardize all the FAO data according to the SIA. So there's a lot of progress there. There's a question from Michael Kuperman from Conservation International. How do you view freshwater and marine fisheries? Similar issues, uniquely different household. I have a suggestion that can I pass it on to Michael, who will be able to share something here. I can also come back after. Michael or Sarah? The short answer is that in principle, there shouldn't be any difference, but the freshwater fisheries, inland fisheries are probably easier to understand that we know much more about the freshwater ecosystems and what the influences are. So for example, it's much easier to estimate the stocks. So I think there's much more work on the freshwater fisheries. And the marine fisheries gets us into the issue of international waters and that aren't well monitored by countries. So there are a whole new set of issues to deal with when we're talking about the marine fisheries. Sarah, in your experience collecting and working with small scale fisheries, did you also work in freshwater fishing ecosystems? So my work mostly focused on what entirely focused on marine fisheries. I do however know that in freshwater fisheries in terms of the small scale fisheries data, I think in a lot of contexts equally as data poor, I think some of the challenges of coming up with estimates are maybe less in a freshwater environment because we don't have these boundary issues. There's sort of less international fleets coming in and fishing and so you don't have those kinds of challenges that kind of make the data difficult to decipher. But I certainly am not an expert on freshwater habitat or aquaculture in that manner. Thank you. There's another question from Monica Mariniu. Do you include access to finance in the data that you collect from small scale fisheries? I think this will be for Sarah. So I haven't specifically targeted that information. However, on the work that I've done on women in fisheries and gender in fisheries, that's certainly a very important aspect. That data is not necessarily as readily available. But certainly as we look at indicators of empowerment, women's empowerment in small scale fisheries context, access to finance is quite a big one. And so I think that it would be a good one to collect in terms of if you're looking at kind of what types of indicators to look at. And it would be great to see more comparable data across different countries in context in that respect. But my knowledge, there isn't a lot. We must go into certain context where that's in the specific target. Thank you. Because of course, access to finance is one of the big restrictive issues that small scale fishers face when they need to prepare and get more inclusive and profitable activities. There is another questioning here from Rosalind Goodridge from my ID. What would the benefits to the private sector be of having this information? For example, for bigger fishing companies. And I imagine that Rosalind means the information from small scale fisheries or the information from oceans accounts. But either way, I would like to ask for both sectors, how would better accounting and better understanding of the smallest scale fisheries inform the policies that affect the private sector investments? And how would oceans accounts also help private sector and larger scale investments? I will pass it on to Michael first and then Sarah after this. Thanks. I will try to answer the question about the access to finance as well. Partly it would be in the SIA in terms of the taxes and subsidies. But again, how those taxes and subsidies, how those subsidies get to the small scale fishers would be part of the missing bits in terms of the desegregating the beneficiaries. In terms of how the private sector would benefit, if they are all really transparent about wanting to support sustainable fisheries, in general, they would recognize the importance of the small scale fisheries and use this information to adjust their activities to have less impact and be more supportive of the small scale fisheries. I think there are lots of conflicts at the moment. So if information were comprehensive and decisions were transparent and motives were for sustainability, then that information would be very useful to partition the ocean and to encourage mutual support of the two parts of the fisheries. Thank you. Can I also ask Sarah, how do you think that getting better information for small scale fisheries and gender and women participation can help the policies that also affect the larger, bigger fishing companies? Yeah, I think that's a tricky one because I think, like Michael brought up, there are sort of some inflicting kind of objectives there. But I think as there's more pressure on big companies to adopt more kind of your social corporate responsibility when it comes to their operations, I think there will be a need for companies to kind of shift some of their objectives to include things around equity, gender equity, equity and pay and that kind of thing. So I think this information will feed into that kind of broader shift that hopefully will take place. I think it's still relatively new, although I heard some examples from the aquaculture sector where larger aquaculture companies are starting to adopt some of these corporate social responsibilities and those mandates around things like equity. So I think it will feed into that at some level, hopefully sooner rather than later. So that's where I think it could be useful. And of course, another of the important elements of having better information that is transparent and consistently collected will be very useful to design better impact investments along different stages of the value chain. So for example, in some countries, there's a lot of talk about maybe improving the way that landing sites operate that will provide better jobs for women who are involved into some of these other processing steps of the value chain. There's another, there's a comment from Nazia Everhim from Monique here. She said she works with the Fisheries and Congress search unit at UBC with Sarah and they are looking, they also look, they have been looking into subsidies globally and they do, as Michael was also, you pick the issues of taxes and subsidies when you collect this information also in terms of community development budgets. There's a question from Sarah Taylor for me and she said, Inna, you mentioned models linking to climate change. Do you have specific examples to mention? I don't exactly link to Fisheries account. This is wishful thinking, but there are models for climate change that are beginning to use data from sea type of accounts. So for example, all the emissions accounts and land accounts and forest accounts are being used to help generate better information in response to climate change. So in Colombia, for example, they have been using the forest accounts to develop their climate actions in there. So I do my knowledge, I don't think that this has been used in Fisheries sector, but it's learning from one sector to the other for the future. And as Michael was also saying, the oceans accounts are relatively new one, two years probably. And for Michael, there was another question in here is that, Michael, would you say that the ocean accounts could possibly mitigate or at least monitor climate change effects on smaller scale fisheries? So I'll pass that to you. Thanks. And like Inna was saying, there are already a few connections there in the existing sea accounts. With the ocean accounts, we're actively working with the climate change and disaster risk community to look at what data we might share rather than each of us collecting information on ocean temperature and coastal communities. Let's find a core of data that we can help build that would be useful for all three communities. We're actually working close with other groups in ESCAP who are, for example, monitoring sea temperature and chlorophyll and its ability to predict movements of fish stocks, for example. So there are some strong linkages there. But unless we, unless we collaborate on this, there'll still be separate communities. So I like the idea of these, these experiments of trying to link the bits and pieces together. So if you have any ideas, please, please connect with me. Thank you. Of course, one of the major benefits and the byproducts of all of the processes that have been promoted by the WAVES program has been the sharing of the information, the collecting information, which has not been painless at all. It's just agreeing on specific maps of forest cover, for example, in one country has been really difficult, but getting to the point where countries and the different agents agree on what is the data that is going to be used to develop policy has, has been a major shift in the way that data is used for policies. So hopefully we can see these now beginning to permeate in the fisheries and the oceans management strategies. As I said also earlier, we have a set of guidelines and a toolkit that's coming up very soon on how, how to implement in the practice accounts from small scale fisheries. And how do you link this up to national accounts from Rosalind is WAVES doing fisheries accounts or oceans accounts. Michael, do you know if WAVES have been in contact with you regarding oceans accounts? I'm in touch with WAVES on many issues and they're very supportive of us developing the methodology and in the pilots, but they're not directly working on any of the pilots with us at the, at the moment. But like I said, there's these pilots are just starting up and well, we're looking for opportunities to, to connect with WAVES on this. They do support the ecosystem accounting. So there's, there's already a link there. Yes. And also to share with the rest of the audience, we have also been talking a lot with WAVES and they have been providing feedback in the materials that we're sharing in here as well. Fishery accounts that there have been, every country collects data on fisheries. So they report fisheries is one of the primary sectors. So every country's already providing information on fisheries. As I said earlier, what we're trying to do here is provide a framework to do it a bit better each time. And of course, Rosalind also mentions can they link to coastal ecosystem accounts? Yes, definitely. And I think that Michael presented this as one of the potential entry points of oceans accounts is looking into coral ecosystems, if I'm not mistaken. So yes, there's a bit of a challenge at the moment that we don't really have a good definition of the ecosystem types themselves or an agreed definition. And a lot of the work on where the coral and the seagrasses are needs updating and needs work. One of the issues is that we don't really have the, at the global level, we don't really have all of the details of the coastal ecosystem. So it's something that we're working with the United States Geological Survey who defined ecosystem marine units. And now they're in the process of defining coastal marine units. So we're looking forward to that to have a consistent global definition. There is a very linked question right after on corals. It says on the topic of corals, is there anything in progress on whether coral ecosystem valuation can be used to catalyze private sector finance for restoration and so on? Yeah, the ecological economists have been working on coral and seagrass ecosystems for many, many years. And it's a matter of valuing the ecosystem services and the fish is one of them. The approach hasn't really been coherent. I would look to see ecosystems or the methodology that links with the existing statistical systems with the system of national accounts. Some of those valuation methods are they're, they're, they use varied approaches. So they're difficult to bring together. So if we look at Costanza 1997, if you haven't done any work on ecosystem services, you might not know about Costanza 1997, but he didn't even include the value of coral ecosystems and the value of the world's ecosystems. And by 2007, coral ecosystems were most highly valued ecosystems. So it's a, it's an area of ongoing research. A lot of people are measuring the broad ecosystem values, not only the fish, but the coastal protection and the, the, the, the species habitat and the, the cultural values of that. So there's lots of work on the, on the value of coastal ecosystems. But I'm trying to conclude here, and we're aware of that. That's part of the SEA ecosystems. Yes. I think that it's worth to say that one of the advantages of working and the different drafts and consultations of creating this SEA frameworks is that it brings together a lot of the experience that we have been developing over the past 20 years or more in valuing economic valuation of different types of ecosystems. So that's, this is a very useful way of putting it together. And that's why the ecosystem accounts of multiple types of ecosystems are so exciting, but also so difficult because it is linked to the different strategies that are used to value. How the data is used will depend, will be linked to whether it can be used to promote private sector finance. There will be other policies that will be linked to, that will hopefully be informed by this data. There was another, there's two questions in between. Jeff was asking, his sound went off when Michael gave a response on the countries that were, and how do, how do you go around for applying for support to the oceans account? And Sarah also asked which countries this IED focused on the work for small scale fisheries accounting. I will begin with us. We don't have countries yet. So at the moment we're, we're trying to work hard on the system and we're working also with the oceans accounts to try to provide, provide some information on the small scale fisheries accounting. We are at the moment focusing on least developed countries because that's basically what we have funded for. But we want to be sharing information and it will apply for any country really that has fisheries. And Michael in 30 seconds, can you just summarize what you said earlier about which countries and how do you engage with other people? Yes, we're already working with Indonesia, Vanuatu and Thailand. We've been talking to several other countries in the, in the region. We're happy to take, take requests. If you're working in an area, if you'd like to find out about our approach to the pilots, I'd be happy to discuss. Please send me an email. I think you have my email address. If not, I can, I can repeat it. I think that we are reaching the end of the hour. I will really thank both Michael and Sarah for joining us today and sharing the information on what they are doing. We really thank you all for participating. We ask you to really contact us, contact Michael, Sarah to, if you would like to get more information. Thank you very much, everybody.