 Hello everyone. Thank you for tuning in to Straight Talk for my show. Before I talk to our incredible guests, Eric, we're going to talk about U-Law updates. So for those of you who don't know, our so wonderful gallery and performance in it is part of everything we do. It's part of Straight Talk for Maud and, you know, our so wonderful for Maud Music, United College Club. We do a lot of, have a lot of programs, what we do for, for many years, like United College Club has been around since 1999, for my local art and music has been around since 2003. So we, so we, and our so wonderful been around since 2003. You probably know our so wonderful, because you see all those incredible murals everywhere. 60% of the murals are our so wonderful in Burlington. And we do them around the state as well. We created in 2010, our so wonderful lecture boxes. So you see all these cool lecture boxes everywhere. Some of our partners do a lot of them. We created it in 2010. We're all the ones in Burlington and a lot of other places in Taylor Park, St. Albans and Rutland. So what we try to do with the art piece is give artists an opportunity to showcase their art in public spaces, you know, where they normally don't can't, you know, not many people can like say they didn't like the electrical box downtown Burlington or a mural in Burlington or anywhere around the state, you know, it's kind of hard for some people to get to do murals. For us, are you gonna just contact artsowonderful.com and say you want to help out on a mural? Guess what? You'd probably be helping us out on a mural like that same week, but that's how we operate. We want to make sure that people get involved immediately. And we, and they like us like that. And thinking about it too, we supply all the brushes and paint and everything, you know. So our new art gallery, Art So Wonderful Gallery and Performing Center is located in the University of Mall, which all our, all our, all of our galleries are there, but we have one in the Burlington one at one time. This one is a new space. It's right next to Target, across from IHOP. It's 8,000 square feet. It used to be what a soft Burlington library is. We come in there, boy, you see this incredible art. Like, oh man, when I sit there, I just love the art that's in there. I'm not an artist or musician, but I love it. So we're open Wednesday through Saturday from 11 to 5. So coming in, I'm Bruce Wilson. You know, it's my place. I run it as long as my director and curator, Alondra de la Criesta and our technology director, social media, Teddy, Michael Gaffney, aka Teddy, you know, he's the man. He holds down so much and all our muralists, Ali muralists, Jamie and Elizabeth and Maple, you know, they do the community murals and they're so incredible. And I love, I love what they do. So today, we got Eric Hoffman from Vermont Housing Finance Agency, and he's a manager of business and development for the home ownership. And so he's going to talk to us about how we can get involved with the agency, how we can maybe get some loans, what we qualify for, what steps we need to take. So Eric, thank you for coming on the show today. Thank you, Bruce. It's a pleasure to see you all the time. Yeah, Bruce. And it's always great to work with you. You know, we've done some things in last year or at the National Night Out, you know, essays and our goal is to get hit around everywhere that you guys serve and help you kind of, people can understand about the work, what you do as well as how they can get involved. Because a lot of people don't know about this, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. They don't know about, as long as you guys build around, Vermont Housing Finance Agency this is 1974. Correct. That's a long time ago. Wow. Yeah. So first of all, thank you for having me today and thank you for all of the art and spirit that you bring to the community. And yeah, my name is Eric Hoffman from VHFA and I work in our home ownership department. And so what I do is I talk to banks and credit unions and home buyers and realtors and anybody else who will listen to help explain how to buy a home and what special programs are out there, especially VHFA, Vermont Housing Finance Agency, but there's other special programs that are out there that can help home buyers. So basically, I'm here today to give any information I can answer any questions that Bruce has to help explain the home buying process, but also to explain the special programs that we have. No doubt about it. And so well, let's talk about for many years, been around since 1974. Yep. Wow. And I came in Vermont in 89, but and I, you know, it took me a long time to, and I'm still learning from you. Thank God we have you teachers, but what you guys actually do. So what is the mission goals and objectives of Vermont Housing Finance? Right. So yeah, it's okay. VHFA, Vermont Housing Finance Agency has been around since 1974 and basically has two lines of business. I hope I'm describing this correctly, but we do development and we also have mortgage programs or programs that help home buyers to buy their home that you get by going to a local bank or credit union or mortgage company. So we basically take money from state and federal sources and funnel them into the state of Vermont to build affordable housing and offer special financing programs for people who are looking to buy. And so we've helped generations of Vermonters to buy their first home. You'll run into people on the street and say, oh yeah, I remember I bought my first home using VHFA and back in, you know, the 90s or something like that. So that's a continuation of that. And we're a housing finance agency and we're one of, there's one in every state basically. So we're the state, the housing finance agency version for Vermont. There's one in New Hampshire and there's one, you know, in California. So, and they kind of feel the same function. So yeah, so you served the whole state of Vermont. That's a lot. Yeah. Wow. So small towns, name a real small town that probably like, mayberry, you know, be very Vermont. On the spot here. No, I don't know. I'm gonna say, because I'm just curious that who might use the service, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. And you don't have to, you know, I mean, you know, you might not can think of it. I mean, the one that comes to mind is Pittsfield. I don't know how big or small it is necessarily. But yes, we are statewide. And the good news about Vermont is that we're small enough that I can, we can handle it. We can handle, we do loans all across the state of Vermont. And it really works in rural areas, but also here where we're located in Chittenden County as well. Wow. So that's, so that's why it's called Vermont. Correct. Yes. Wow. So, oh, wow. So there's no other agencies like you, you are the agency for the state of Vermont? Well, I mean, it's a good question. So like we, we're part of the affordable housing landscape. So there is, there's different organizations that have slightly different functions. And we all kind of work together. We've got like the housing authorities, you know, Burlington Housing Authority, Vermont State Housing Authority, Housing Vermont, we've got Champlain Housing Trust and the other home ownership centers. So there's a whole network of nonprofits and government agencies that are, that work together to do their best to make, make, make home more affordable all along what we call the housing spectrum. So when we're talking about housing programs, we want, you know, to look at housing programs to help homelessness and to also help people, you know, who are looking to rent and then people who are looking to buy their own home and people who are looking to stay in their home and who have worried for closure and be able to repair. So there's this whole spectrum of things that funds go into at different places to just basically make home more affordable and more safe and decent. That's incredible. So, so Eric, when you say homelessness, because man, yeah, it's a lot of homeless people across the country, but you know, you wouldn't believe how many homeless people, I mean, you know, I'm saying in general, you wouldn't believe how many homeless people that are just right here in Vermont, right here in the Chittany County, Burlington, you know, and so you said you work with homelessness, so I guess I'm trying to figure out, you know, what do you do, how do you do that? Well, what do I, I don't, I don't work with. Well, you know what I mean, I mean, yeah, you made the VHFA. I mean, as far as VHFA does, it's hard for me to describe how we're working directly on that problem, but there's, she's, I mean, to be honest, you know, I, my work is focused on people that are at a different place in the spectrum. There are services out there that like the transitional housing and the shelters and the temporary COTS is another one, Champlain Housing, you know, so you see what I mean, like different agencies will fill different functions, and I mean, we have seen people go from the beginning of that spectrum all the way to the other end and become a homeowner, you know, after being homeless. There are programs out there that you can actually, if you have a Section 8 rental voucher, you can turn that into help with a mortgage payment. It's not an easy process, but it is something that's out there. So there's just a whole landscape of programs that are out there to help people. I will say that it can be tricky to navigate. So finding a trusted source where you can get some of that information is probably one of the first steps so we can get into that more if you want to. Yeah, well, I do, but I'm curious about, one of the things you just said is about, you know, it's a tricky process. We have a Section 8 voucher. I mean, I know tricky means like a lot of stuff you got to go through, a lot of paperwork and probably federal proposals, grants, whatever it is. But you help with the mortgage, you know, like you said, renting, it helps you with a mortgage to buy. That's why I'm thinking, I'm curious is that, do you help, can they build, to build something too? Like, oh, do you have to rent from me, you know, theory, you know, rent from me. And then I was like, okay, you know, you're paying, it's a mortgage. Now you can buy this place on High Works. But can you, can they build a place too? Like, what? I mean, it's possible to get a construction. Section 8, yes, I think you could in theory, you could. But I mean, to be honest, my view of the market right now is that building construction materials and the cost of land is so high, and you have to have a lot of cash upfront. And so it would just be, and I'm not making an assumption, maybe somebody with a Section 8 voucher is in a position that has savings and things like that. I'm just being realistic that I don't want to be like, you got a Section 8 voucher, you can turn it into a new home, right? It's not a guarantee. But it is possible. What I will say is that for a first time home buyer, what I always say the first time home buyer is maybe, you know, sometimes there's an idea about constructing your own home, right? I just want to get a little piece of land and put a little house on it. Well, that can often be the most difficult thing to do. It's an easier thing to do to go for a house that's already built, right? And the first step in the process is to talk with a local bank or credit union or mortgage company and just understand where you are. Like, do you qualify for a loan? And even if you don't, it still gives you a sense of what the roadmap is. So that's what I always tell home buyers. Okay, so, guys, so, you know, how do you qualify for a loan? I mean, what's the qualification? Do you need like 800 credit scores, 750 or, you know, what do you need to qualify for a loan? And I mean, if you have a low quarter score, that's what I mean. That's what I mean. You have a high score, you qualify for a loan pretty much in economics. But what do you need to qualify for a loan with low or a low credit score in low economics? Like, you understand what I'm saying? Totally. So like, when you go to see, when you talk to a bank or a credit union or a mortgage company, sit down with the person, face to face, and ask them, you know, what does it take, what do I need to do? What do I need to show in order to get a loan? And basically, they'll look at poor things. So look at your finances. And I call it your financial well-being, right? Your financial situation. They look at your credit, but not just your credit. They also look at how much money do you make? How much money do you make per month, really, is what they're really focused on. And then, what are your minimum monthly debt payments? Like, what do you have, like, do you have credit cards or auto loans or personal loans or student loans? Like, how much of your monthly income is taken up by the other debt that you have? So the more monthly income you can show, the more you make, and the less debt that you have, right, the more of a mortgage you'll be able to afford. And finally, they look at savings. And you do need some savings because it costs money to buy a home up front. And that's usually in the form of a down payment or and also in the form of what's called closing costs. And so it's really those four things that they're looking at when it comes to credit. There's all different kinds of programs that have different minimum credit scores that they'll accept. But credit scores can go down as far as the low 600s and maybe even lower in some cases. There's an FHA loan out there where you could have a lower credit score and still be able to qualify. So low 600s. I don't know. I haven't heard much below that for VHFA. It's no no less than a 640. And in some cases a 680. Really what you want to do to put yourself into a position where you're going to be able to have your pick is a 700 or so. Yeah, sure. Yeah. But there's ways credit can always be rebuilt too. So even if you talk to a lender and like, Oh, I see a problem on your you got a collection or something like that. Right. They will give you a roadmap to say if you do these things, come back in six months and we'll take another look at your credit score and see if you qualify. So it's all about understanding the process and knowing where to start and having that initial conversation with a lender. I'm not trying to push people to a lender before they're ready. But it can be a really good way for them just to understand where they start. There's no pressure to it. And there's other and there's other programs out there that could help to other places they could go. You know, you're very knowledgeable. I know you only been working with this agent for like a couple years now, right? I've been there for four years. That's okay. And before that, I was working with Champlain Housing Trust. So I was a home buyer education counselor. So I met with or I was a home education counselor. So getting back to that housing spectrum, I worked with people who were, you know, coming out of homelessness, trying to get into an apartment, coming out of renting, trying to get into a home, facing foreclosure. So I saw it all along the spectrum there. And what really what I realized was, man, we all want the same thing, right? We just want a home that we can we can love and appreciate. And we're all everybody that I was meeting was in transition. And it just really made me and it really made me very sensitive to how important stability in the home is. And so it's not to and to me, when I talk about housing stability, or if you're if you're stably housed, it's not about like you wouldn't want to get into renting an apartment or into getting a mortgage for a home where you're so you don't have any money left over to and you know, to for to pay for the things that you need. And then you find yourself not being able to pay your mortgage, because that can be so disruptive. So what I what I say is, is it's really best to be both, you know, you find a house that that you that is safe and that you, you know, how it's you can appreciate it, but also, you know, making sure that it's something that you can afford if you don't if both of those things are really important for that overall stability. So that's good. So so what kind of you have programs you have some programs and grants, or what do you what you're offering? Yes, individuals. So getting back to kind of what lenders look at, they look at credit and income. And what did I say? Debt and savings. So when you buy a home, there's usually upfront costs that you have to pay. And those can be in the thousands of dollars. So one of the main programs that VHFA offers is something called down payment assistance. It's called it's called VHFA assist. And it can be up to 10 to $15,000 in cash assistance to be to pay for those upfront costs. So you don't have to pay for that out of pocket. And it can make the difference if you're somebody who doesn't have money and savings, but has good income and has, you know, credit score where it needs to be, this can get you over the hump. Now, you have programs for like a people color. You have any, you know, is anything special about person look like me? Good question. So we don't have any financing that is specifically set aside for people of color, BIPOC. However, I don't know if you're aware of Champlain Housing Trust does. They have a special grant program. I'm not sure. I think it's up to $25,000. And if a person in the household identifies as Black, Indigenous, or person of color, then they could get this, they could qualify for this grant and buy a home through Champlain Housing Trust. And so I want to encourage people to, I'd say go to a lender and see sort of where you stand as the first step in the home buying process. If you're not ready to meet with a lender or in addition to meeting with a lender, I would say talk to a local home ownership center. And you can find that online, but the one in Chittenden County here is Champlain Housing Trust. And they have counselors, home buyer counselors on staff, they have education and they have lots of different programs, especially one called the shared equity program that you can, that can help you to buy a house at a cheaper price than what you would find if you were just out on the open market yourself. There are some, when talking about finances, the reason that we don't offer a program specifically for people of color is that it's legal. It's a legal issue. We're still trying to figure out if it would run afoul of fair housing or if it would run afoul of the Equal Protection Clause in the Constitution as sort of reverse discrimination. So I told you earlier about how we, there's HFAs in all different states. And so we're all taking a look at that question to see if we could use something called the special purpose credit program like Champlain Housing Trust is using. So that's on, that's on, it's in the works. But as far as like outreach and things like that, we're doing our best to reach diverse audiences and to offer education to help because a big part of buying a home, it's, you know, certainly having the money, but also having the know-how, right? And it's how do you become an informed, how do you put yourself in a place where you can make informed decisions, right? How do you, I always tell people what I'm trying to do whenever I do a home buyer event is I want you to be a more informed buyer and a more competitive buyer. So that education piece is a big piece of that. And that's something that we are always looking to do is to partner with organizations and individuals to reach new and diverse audiences. So I think right now's the time for you, you know, we can, you can talk about how people can get in touch with you. Okay. Can they? Yeah. So my name is Eric Hoffman again. And you could go to vhfa.org and you can either submit a question by email through there or you can give us a call and maybe happy to explain, you know, where some of the first steps and just get your point in the right direction based on where you stand in the home buying process. Awesome. So, you know, it's like I said, you know, I've been here since 1989. It took me, it was years before I knew exactly what you did and what you do, you know. And I know there's a lot of people out there who don't know. Well, they know a lot of them knowing today because they listen to our show. But so how are we, so how are we going to move on the state and get the word out? Because I'm willing, you know, I'm going to help you. I'm willing to help you. I'm going to help you do it. Okay. You know, so how are we going to do it? Okay. What's our, what's our first place we're going to? Maybe I should ask you this question. I should be asking more questions. Go ahead. Go ahead. Well, but I have an idea. So I have an idea too. But this is something that I'm still working on. And we have, we're establishing relationships with like NAACP and root to the root down in Windsor and Brattleboro. They are actually not something that we're involved with, but they're actually doing a BIPOC affinity group and space for to bring together a group of people who are people of color who are interested in buying a home. And they're having holding like a group session over several, you know, over several months to help people to try to kind of troubleshoot together. So it's that kind of, that kind of thinking like, Hey, how can we create spaces where people can bounce ideas off of each other and also get the word out? But one, one quick solution is to, to, to that we offer already is the home buyer webinar. And I do that once a month. And it's something that I do live. And so anybody can register for it and attend. You can register on our website for that. And then I generally will record that and have it on our website so that you could just look through YouTube, you can just download that and listen to while you're doing something else. And it really gives you a good, a good perspective on the steps involved in buying a home. So I would encourage anybody if you're interested in understanding the process, because it's a, it can be a daunting process, right? From start to finish is to go to our website and maybe take a, take a listen to that video. Yeah. So that's all good. Good stuff. But I know for, you know, I'll sit on one of the boards and commissions about the state. And I know for a fact is that, like, if you're gonna, if you, you go to the police departments and around your website, what, on their website, well, what you want to find out is where you pay your parking ticket. I mean, you know, you don't go and find out, you know, so a lot of things, you know, why people go on people's websites, like, kind of like yours, you know what I'm saying? It's because for, you know, maybe they're going for housing reasons, because they heard about you. But not many people go to discuss, go and check that website just randomly or just, oh, let me go home and get on this. Yeah. And spend all this time, yeah. No, maybe just might, if they get the information, like, what year was it, was it the national night on assets and people was coming to the tent, you were talking to them, you know, and they was giving information and more boots on the ground, right? So they come to you because they want to know the information. And you give them the information, so they probably can go home and look at it to your website and all this stuff. But the situation is, like I said, I don't know, it shouldn't kind of reach a planning. A lot of people look at the website and a lot of people don't even know what we do. We have 19 municipalities, you know. And, you know, just like me, I'll sit on the, I'm not talking about me, but I'm going to talk about our websites because I know, that's what I'm talking about, what I know. And Human Rights Commission, I'm a commissioner for the state of Vermont. And not many people look on it, you know, you got some issues, situations, you might look at the Human Rights Commission in the law firms or, you know, agencies, law agencies might say, well, you know what you got a case sound like, Human Rights Commission can help you. And so they'll go check, you know what I mean, but first of all, that's what we're going to start bouncing around everywhere to educate people about what we do too, because they should know. So the thing is that in the only way we're going to do that is going to be boots on the ground. We have to go right where they are, right? We talked about this before, right? And so that's the thing I think that everything will raise up. I mean, if you go, you get five people out of each, you know, city. That's a lot. That's a lot. Yeah. One person. What I try to do is I do one in-person homebuyer event somewhere around the state and one webinar per month. And I think the space are so wonderful. That's right. I want to do that. Yeah. Well, you know, we definitely, the good thing about our space, you know, I want to host every event you want to do there, you know, every one. You know, it's a good place. It's right by the highway, free ample parking. You know, you might want to go to Target or something on JCPenney or Code while you're there. Or, you know, you might want to think about buying smart, whatever. But it's a great space. And I got that space just for you. See, it's got a stage. Yeah. Big stage. You got a lot of these chairs. People can sit. We have a restorative justice type circle of chairs. I like that. What we have are community talks. And so we've been doing community talks in a little circle. You saw that. So, you know, getting back to reaching diverse audiences, a big part of it is holding events like this in the right kinds of spaces, like less about, and I'm guilty of this, less about in breweries and other potentially more white spaces, let's go to other community spaces, right? Am I on the right track? You're on the right track. And so, like, you know, we talked about this many times in meetings that we held about this and I didn't have the space. I had our gallery in the mall, but it wasn't that type of 8,000s. But now we can do like, you know, incredible, you know, you know, have little snacks and food. We have sponsors. We can get some food and people come in and then this can come in. And like you said, we can have some providers there, like some loan. We can have a realtor. We can have a lender. So, I just need to say this, you're talking about the commissioners from the state. And you don't see them going directly to the people. They're more like B2B, business to business. In the sense, VHFA is that, too. We offer, all of our programs are offered through banks and credit union. Nobody comes to VHFA to apply. So, there is an aspect of the fact that we're in the background a little bit. When you go to a lender, they might hear VHFA. You might get one of our programs and never know you. Never know you did. That being said, with the limited capacity that we have, we do the home buyer outreach, but we also want to try to rely on our lenders in our credit unions and banks to do that. So, based on what you were saying to me, you should be asking me the question. No, I have no problem, because we've done over 700 events in the state of Vermont. But anyways, what I like to do is, if we need a lender, what do you say, a lender in a... Bank credit union? Yeah. They can all have the... We can have them all there, but they could all have their term to present. We can have all those lenders in banks and credit unions or whatever, whoever want to be there, who shouldn't want to be there, responsible banking, social responsible banking. They definitely want to be there around people who they serve. And by the banking space to say, oh, that's just a real person I can go talk to. Right. Go down. And they'll treat me with patience and fairness, right? Well, yes, of course. But what I'm thinking is that the same thing you said, and you always have them there, and I'm saying like, one month, this is about the real estate agencies, they're presenting. We'll have all the credit union bankers and your organization, your agency there. But right now, they can go walk along and get the service. But right now, it's about the real estate. They talk about real estate. They talk about what you need. They talk about demographics. They talk about whatever the real estate agencies talk about. And that's their term to talk. But we'll have everybody there, in case you don't mean they can walk along and talk to everybody else too, but this would be a presentation. And then the next thing, the credit union, that's their term. They're talking about it, but we'll have the real estate everybody there. So that's to give everybody their term. They really present there what they do. And so I think that's the bang for the buck. First of all, we work with the Greeks, society, and on UVM, through our United College Club program, since 1999 in the United College Club. And when we work with the Greeks, we sponsor the Greek awards for them. And I'm telling you, I never see so many Greeks, sorority, and fraternities. Sharps, maybe 500 college students all dressed up for the fancy year for the award ceremony. And so we sponsored it for a few years. And then they started like, we need to do this for you. So when we contact them, you know, say, can you please help us or the MOO program at St. Michael's or what's the other one, the other community service program at UVM. But anyways, when you get 300 college, the bang for the buck is they bring it, we try to educate them about whatever it is, you know, social, anything we try to, whatever we're trying to educate them on, they come in there like 300, 300 people. And I don't care if they, in their job, it's like recruit others to come. But we don't care if they bring not one person, but you got 300 of them in the room. That's all you need. You know what I'm saying? You don't even need nobody else. So that's why I say the bang for the buck, you know. And so when we will say agencies are there presenting, then they have the housing and everybody, the credit units, then the bang for the buck is everybody's coming through, comes there for something. And everybody who's there, who's presenting can talk about what they do and everybody can win more. Well, yeah, of course. But you know, I'm always going to include, because I always, I sit on all these boards and commissions about anti-racism, diversity, equity, inclusion, racial equity, inclusion, belonging. So that's, that's who I am. You know what I'm saying? And so the thing is, you got to remember, like, you know, they say it's the white of state in America, second-white state in America. When I came in, it was the first right of state. I still think it's the first, but we will say it's the second. We got the first, second, third, fourth, and fifth. It's still the damn same as the first. But so, so it's a little different to get people by-park of individuals or, you know, into a room where the state is white, all white, you know what I'm saying? So it's really difficult. But the good thing about it, what good thing about me, I'm a person of color. So it's easy for me to get people who look like me into a room or, you know, because I work with them all. You know, so, so the goal, the thing is that when you get everybody in the room, like I'm an all-team park, you know, all different colors, races, cultural diversities, ethnicities, whatever, in a room. That's generally what I see when I do the home-buyer webinar. That's awesome. No, I'm trying to say, you learn a lot from each other. Okay. You know what I mean? It's not like this, the white people talking, you know, and this is how you should do a black person, and who are the black people talking, and this is how you should do a white person. You know what I mean? Everybody, like, making decisions, working together to come up with an answer that makes sense. And so I don't care what's- It's not like you're intimidated by somebody out there. No way, no way. You know, because, you know, if, as you know, a black person will come and say, they're not intimidated by nothing. They'll stand up in front of the room and say, yeah, no. You don't want that because you want, you know, like, you want individuals, say, like the white person, say, you know, in my neighborhood in Plainsville or where probably no black person is, you know, maybe it is, you know, this is what we have to go through. And then people living in Munozki say, well, I live here, and this is how we see things. This is a cultural diversity, and this is the things that we- so together, they can come up with an answer, you know what I mean? Because they all have different- it's not the same situation, you know what I mean? Because I would say that people who African-Americans got to- I don't care what level of education you got, or demographic or economic or where you live there. I got to live in Hyde Park in Chicago. You know, it solves, you know, but my still answers came through the same situation as most people. So, you know, so my point is that I'll probably come up with the same answers that everybody else would look like me, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, so we're talking about, you know, grants and equity and inclusion, but mostly we decide that we think that inclusion is the best way to look at what we want to do, you know? It includes everybody. So, you know, say, oh, you know, Bay Park or this person or that person or POC, you know, that's too much, you know, because it separates thick people, you know? You know, I have been in Vermont since 1989 because I'm trying to be- I love everybody. My folks taught me to love everyone, you know what I mean? And be a part of community and do community service. And that's what I do. I've got thousands of our community service and I continue doing the best thing- the best I have is serving and helping people, you know? But, um, so let's just- I like to use the word inclusion. I know you only can make a decision and get answers right. If you include everybody, everybody's in the room, you know? I don't care if it's 0.1% of African American, you know what I mean? If you've got four or five African Americans among two 75 white people, so what? They can believe me. Those three people, like, can make a difference. I have a youth advisory board. Guess what? You know, all I need is one- if I'm going to a meeting and none of the youth can go with me, and when there's a youth agenda item on it, um, and I'll have to ask one of my youth, you know, I bet you I can know the answer because I worked with them so many years, but I'll have to ask one of my youth, okay, what color there, you know? What do you think? I'm going to a meeting. You- nobody can go. Tell me what some things I have to bring up. Include them. Include them. What's my- what's my- you know, your top of the- my top of the discussion. What do you know what I mean? You know, my key points, you know what I mean? And they come back, you know, when I'm sitting in the room with these adults and they- and they be talking about they been there, done that, and this, that, and the other, and I- and I said, well, here it is, you know, this is what my youth, one of my youth, one of them said, you know what I mean? And I'm sticking by it. I'm sticking by it. Yeah, good. Because when- when are you- when are you meetings, you know, we had kids from Waldorf and Vermont Common School and Winniesky, all- Chitty County High School, and they all are different diff- diff- diff- diff demographics and economics. You know? Yeah. But they all, they need- they know what colors they wear, they know the music, they all know, you know, so you can grab any kid, we're not a kid, any youth, Carl Suto, and ask them the question that you need to ask. One, call up your cousin, you know what I mean, your- your nephew. I think one of the mistakes I make sometimes is that I think I have answers, or- and- and it would be- I- I need- I- I need to hear another perspective too. And- and And there's other, you know, D and the E I think are important too, especially equity. If I can try to define it, it's like people are starting at different places and we have to recognize that. People are starting at different places when they are working with the bank or credit union. And so flexing to that person's needs, communication style too, is just as important as having, is important in addition to having good programs that help people at different income levels. And then diversity too is just, you know, the showing, the, you know, on your website. What is your website like? That is great. That's a great definition of diversity and equity. That's a great example and definition. That's where it's always been, you know what I mean? It don't mean that, it don't mean that, you know, black people or peels, you know, they don't mean that. It just mean really with diversity and equity means, you know what I mean? In the ways that you explain it. Now that's perfect. That's perfect. That's the way I want business to be done because I don't want people with false, they call false flagging thinking they're using the word diversity and equity and don't know what it means. You know what I'm saying? Because they have an extra person who looks like me. What it means. Right. You know, you gotta ask me what it means. You know what I mean? What it means. If you're talking about trying to include me in something, how you gonna make a decision about me if you don't even ask me if I'm not in the room? I don't. Yeah. So, well, I don't want to do that. I just want this diversity and equity. Let's use it where it really, you look at, Google it and they'll tell you. But you know what? The inclusion part is that's the word I want. It ain't, that's the one, bro. Inclusion. That's everybody. It's elementary. You got something to think about for sure. But the words you, the way you use DNA, diversity and equity is perfect. Thank you. Based on how you being doing the business, business to business, I mean that's perfect. But when you say the word inclusion, you're not even, it's no speculation, it's just everybody. Everybody. Everybody's invited. Everybody, you know? Yeah. But we're also making sure that everybody knows about these events and knows about these programs. Yeah, we have a lot. We can, we use our UVM, we use St. Michael's Volunteers in Action. We also wanted to VIA at UVM Volunteers Action and we did the Move program at St. Michael's and we were on like the cynic and paper at UVM and B-O-R-E-D board, you know? And all that. We have a network of students coming, we have a network of college students in Guinea Barca. They, quite frankly they don't want to see a lot of future buyers. You know? Who knows? They get out of college. They be ready to go do that, you know what I mean? Because they might have saved their money or their parents' problems in the loop when they get out. Yeah. So those are the ones we want to educate as well. Okay. And of course, all the time, you know? And so we have a network of how we can get things out to people. And like in other ways, we get, I'm a member of the Chamber of Commerce, you know, a few of them, you know? But the largest one is Cheney County, right? And so we can get them all there too. That's what we really want. People from the Chamber of Commerce, businesses who, I think they got like 6,000 members, that's crazy. You know? Get, you know, at different points in our space to talk about housing and development and what they do. See, that's how you got, one of the things too is like, a sponsor, now when we always say tomorrow we'll see our sponsors, a sponsorship is a partnership, you know what I mean? You know? Could you give me some, my job, how can I help you too? So we try to mix them with people, some people say, why can't Bruce use a hub? You know? And I laugh because what I do is make sure people who are our sponsors get their service promoted to whoever needs it within the other, who are all the sponsors, you know? And so Chamber of Commerce, they can come talk about what they do, they have this time on the stage. And listen, it's bringing in their staff, right? And their staff, you know? And they talk about what all the real estate agents and the banking and the credit unions are talking about, you know, the programs you offer. And so it's a big, big deal. It's gigantic. You know what I'm saying? The ways you can, you know, like I said, it's the bank. Boots on the ground. Boots on the ground. Boots on the ground. Yeah, it can come right to you. You know? And just have, you know, some cool stuff there for them, you know? Yeah, for sure. And it's the easiest thing you can do. I'm telling you, I learned that, you know, I learned how to do it, you know, like, because I believe in, we got to work and help each other. And do you think this education is power? I don't know about it. Do you think that's, I mean, that's, I think that's really something that's, that can make all the difference. You know, it can make all the difference, right? It is, education is, makes all the difference, it is power. Like I said, like, you know, you can use a business on the Chamber of Commerce. They come talk about their business, but they also bring their employees there. Have some cool food or whatever, hoarder herbs or whatever it is. And then they can talk to all our providers there, you know what I mean, and learn something about housing. What is, how wonderful is that to have a business to do that for their employees, to bring them to educate them around something that they don't do. Yeah. You know, if you have their roofers, you know what I mean, they don't do that, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's nice for their employees to learn some stuff. Here's some incentives. Yeah, I should charge for this, actually. For businesses, not people. That's right. Not people individually. Yeah. And then I'll talk to your, you know, and I'll tell them all about, you know, and... Bring them out of there. Yeah. No, no, bring them out. Bring them out. Bring them to ASD, bring them to R01. Okay. Bring them out. Yeah. Yeah, at their work. You know what I mean? Okay. Bring them out. Yeah. You know, we have... Somebody did invite me, one of the factories, and I did, I did, like, during lunch. Yeah. That was great. I went and did a presentation. But you're right. Bring them. The space matters, really. It's great. It's the bang, man. I'm telling you. It's the front of the room, too. And potentially, you know, here's diversity. Showing a person of color who's a real estate professional might make a difference, right? Go down the bottom. Because I think the connection that somebody has with their realtor or with their lender makes all the difference. And if somebody is somebody that somebody can relate to, I'm not saying that people of color can't relate to white people, but you know, that could add a layer of comfortableness and make all the difference, too. Go down the bottom. Go down the bottom. So we need to work on that. People know, again, how we can get in touch with, they can get in touch with you at the Vermont Housing Finance Agency. Yep. Okay. So, yeah. So you can go to the website, vhfa.org, and you can click on Home Buyers, and you'll be able to submit an email right through the website, or you could, there's a number to call there if you want to call us and leave a voicemail. We will get back to you and answer your questions and get you pointed in the right direction. So, thank you so much for this. Yeah. Thanks, Eric Hoffman. I look forward to working with you. So, straight talk with Mark Cho, and thank you, everyone. Tune in next time. Thank you.