 All right. Welcome to the governance meeting. Okay, so here's what we got Jenkins release 2.302 3.2 that's in progress elections contributor summit coming on October 9 proposal to meet one hour later let's see there was one more topic I want which was oh mark wait as a JEP editor. And then the question is, does that need governance approval, or is that some other process. The first thing is, I'm going to use the discussion, and with the risk consensus and the money at least there is no meeting additional governance approval. Okay, and the mailing list discussion has started. But it was started only an hour or two ago. Yeah, and any particular pull request you would like to match. The one on Docker and the one on what was the other one Tim specifically pinged me asking if let me let me make a note of them because they're in my mind it's the one I help start well like wrote but I did the blog post for about removing Ruby and Python. Yeah, that was that was I think also one let me. This is the one that Tim specifically mentioned to you. I don't know if it was the one. Yeah, so, so specific topics. Docker Ruby slash slash Python. I wasn't there one from on guava from basil as well I thought yeah there is pull request for that. Yeah, so and those were the ones that that were most, most of interest. I hope to spend some time in the coming weeks but yeah, I cannot commit on anything particular. Okay. All right, I believe for Jesse. No was it as Jeff editor, but I'm not sure whether he had a bandwidth to merge something. I see his approvals and some of the pull request. And Jesse just submitted a proposal to for a revised process for automated merge. And I wasn't aware he's an editor but Jesse could Jesse click help. Good question. Okay. All right any other agenda items we need to put on the list. So Jenkins release 2.303.2 is in progress not yet complete. The work continues on it. Likewise for 2.3, 2.315. It's visible in the artifact repository, but the release notes the documentation etc not yet published and the advisory associated with it not yet published. It is installed on CID Jenkins now right. It is Oh yes it is installed on on CI Jenkins that IO saw that this morning, visible in Docker images, etc. Yeah, and installable from the dead repositories are dead repository. So yes, it's war files visit war file is available. On elections, anything else. So we've received some nominations apparently so that's that's great so Gavin, I believe you're part of the part of the processing of those nominations so you've received some. Good. Okay. Okay. It doesn't hurt to have more so you can always use more. Right. Now, Olivier had proposed to me discussed. Discuss possibly sending an email to last year's voters. Okay, that has not. I don't know if I'm part of the committee or not. I got added to the list. As far as I understand it was Olivia and Evelina, but either which are on the call so nice. Yeah, well and it was just he and I talking about the relatively lower registration so he hasn't brought it to the to the board yet. We haven't announced the elections. And we did a blog post a few social media things but that's it. I believe there was no mailing list announcement. The same wrong. Even though it's still complicated to get traction for that. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. For me, the biggest problem is officers. So what we were doing last year's direction lead was reaching out to officers to board members to reconfirm the intention to run this year, because from the governance board standpoint, one of major risks that we didn't have Jenkins officer candidates. So, is it something being worked on. I don't specifically know there has been some nomination for officers so far. But, like I said, there's always needs more. So if there's not I thought there was a mailing list post but I wasn't paying that much attention because I knew but it coming so it probably doesn't hurt to do it again anyways, even if it's not been. So users and users dev and past elections right past voters. So generally it makes sense to promote voting sign up after there are candidates published. But because there is some gap in the timeline. So the questions rather how we do ensure that there is enough candidates. All roles are covered. Yeah, I thought that the timeline had the red voter registration concurrent with nominations. I'm not sure about this year before that it wasn't like that. Sorry, I wasn't able to really track this process this month. Oh, no, no, there is there is a one week period. Okay, so here's what I've got. There's looking at the blog post. There's a one week period here where the deadline for nomination and the announcement. No actually because of that registration deadline and candidate announced are the same date so the current process did not give us knowledge disclosure of who the candidates are until after the voter registration period has reached its end. But I guess we could we could certainly share that nominees. There's this notice this really says candidates announced I mean we could, we could recommend a change there and announce candidates sooner so that we can then promote that middle of middle of October. I think at this point it's a little bit and every in a running it so we can make the suggestion to make candidates earlier. But I think we should just blast everyone saying register to vote and hear the candidate or you should nominate people. And then we blast again saying okay registrations close now vote for your candidate. Okay. Yeah, I would question between so long internal for the nations. I think it's actually the other way around I think it was the once once registration close the voting would happen and I think at that point they just said okay the nominations are these, you know, not really thinking about how long nominations will be open for. Okay. All right, any, any other topics there on elections in terms of how we. No, but I checked today only three board members are signed up to vote. Okay, all right so. Three officers, three officers to have more officers to sign up than board members. So you signed up. No, I did. Yeah. I think all rich hasn't. And I believe I hasn't calling them out publicly on video because I can. Okay. I think I did. Yeah, I think I've seen really registered. Yeah, no, you're definitely sorry. I think it's in the community or. Yeah, it's, it's me, Oleg, and really is the only three board members that I can see. Okay. Great. This we want to get to create the discourse on any time soon anyway. We didn't put the register. Yeah, just to start it to be important that we were once voting. Right. Absolutely. Yeah, but anyway, it's a valid question that we actually need more people to sign up. So maybe some additional announcements. Maybe this won't work. Maybe we only get 20 people signed up and then we'll have to use the previous list or something. I don't know. We'll see. Yep. Doesn't have to send it to any least we have. No, I agree. I just meant that if only 20 people sign up to vote, then we might use the list. I don't know. I don't know what Olivia's plan is. You know, maybe last year's list or something. So generally we are not supposed to store this lease. Maybe all of you still has data on his site because we send great. And there is some history. But the voter registration data is deleted by now. Yeah, you mean from from condorsed. Certainly. No, I mean, from our senate forum for the previous year. Oh, I see. We announced that the data won't be stored post election. Got it. Well, yeah, either way, something we can't really deal with that. And right now. Yeah. All right. Anything else on elections? No. Okay. So I did not confirm their office nominations for all officer roles. I said we had some officer nominations. I haven't checked. I should describe it differently. Needs to confirm, right. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know about the all part there. Right. And if we, if we have a role that's an officer role that's not covered by a nomination, we probably need to do some work then to recruit someone to accept them to be nominated or accept the nomination. And it's always a question of, so for example, for me, one question is events officer, because currently I'm acting events officer, but due to personal stuff, I wasn't able to actually do much. I do things here and there, but definitely I could do more. Yeah, right now I'm not sure who would be interested to take this role in the community. Yeah, I've been reaching out to our marketing department because the October fist is running right now and it's good thing to say, you know, thinking about October fast any marketer type people are interested in getting involved with open source. But it hasn't really taken any. It got anywhere yet. But yeah, generally, I'm not sure whether you mark new Olivia. So the templates from the previous election cycle, because we have a Google doc is email templates. And there was specifically my template for officers just asking them, okay, you, whether you want to run, if not, please let us know as soon as possible, and preferably make some donations. Because yeah, the what situation we can have is, for example, Daniel decides on October 29 that he is not running for security officer and have no other can be. Yeah, it's actually a question of project sustainability. So that's why I would like to raise it. I will tomorrow make a go through all the nominations so far make a spreadsheet and then get the rest of the committee to contact the officers. I do have access to previously email templates, just to save some of your time. I suspect not. I don't know where they'd be. Yeah, somewhere in my Google drive. Just a second. So we'll share access with you and the Velina. Actually, the document is already public. So I will just to meeting notes. Mm hmm. So, yeah, the templates run with a secret. Again, probably just saves some time. Mm hmm. Anything else any other topics on elections. Okay, next topic then contributors summit October nine. Yeah, so I just want to confirm that it will happen. I secured some time for that we have several topics submitted. Actually, we like proposals for one conference sessions, but I think that I will figure it out in the coming days. So the summit will happen. Still it will be quite a low scale in them. But I hope that you will be able to gather some contributors and to have discussions. I'm not sure we need to come to join. I don't think that I find the time on weekend I planned for the last Saturday. So, again, yeah, there were some changes, and we will definitely need to think how to adjust better. As all of you know, my life is working on that. But yeah, women will still happen. Hopefully there will be some outcomes. And let's see how it goes. And one of my major to do items is to actually update the roadmap because this is our third contributor summit this year. And we didn't update the roadmap. So even for February contributor summit, there will be no roadmap updates. There are some basically open topics like no community Jenkins are you on the roadmap. If you talk some communication channels. And the technical side is also quite behind the schedule. Oh, like, are you envisioning that that's that shared as part of the project updates? Or is when you're saying roadmap updates, you're thinking the updates to the Jenkins dot IO roadmaps page. Yeah, I don't commit to do it before the summit. Well, generally I cannot because even if I submit a poor quiz, you'll need the reviews from the board members and yeah, I would prefer to not commit to do it until Saturday. Make sense. Yeah, there and there are plenty of things where we've made made good progress actually that roadmap needs update Java 17 preview is available. We've switched to Java 11, we've got arm 64 bit and system 390 and power PC images of those kinds of things. So, are you think that, yeah, generally we expect special interest groups and sub projects to submit updates for the roadmap, but it clearly doesn't happen. So, maybe there are some changes needed in how we actually manage the roadmap. Because the previous one was built is assumption that, yeah, there would be regular updates by project leaders, but right now, yeah, the most of special interest groups in active. Even if they're active. So, for example, there is platform C, but you haven't received update from platform C since February. And the roadmap for documentation is basically the same. Even if we kind of plug the holes, clearly the process doesn't work. And we need to think how we change the process. And by the way, I'm currently working on the continuous delivery foundation to see roadmap, and then we just we just have a project with a dashboard to save some time. Okay. Yeah, we'll see how it goes because you know that I wouldn't say that the TC is very much active in all the things, but let's see. Okay. Nothing. If anyone is listening to participate, please let me know. Yeah, Mark, I've seen your update. Do you really plan to participate in the E-PAC time zone? I do. I did participate in the last one. It left somewhat of a hangover for the weekend, but I did. I may only be there for four hours or like after about four hours, I become somewhat non-functional at that time. Yeah, I will make sure that your session is in the beginning then. Okay, so I think that's it. If you had asked about project updates during the session, is there something particular you want me, for me there, should I plan to do a docs and a platform update, or is that not worth the time? We just focus on the course of the time. So if you could prepare, it would be nice. Okay. I'm not going to go into what you're conveying all about security, update and other things, but yeah, I'm also assuming that I'm pretty alright. So my plan is to spend as less time on project updates as possible. Just a quick glance to updates here and there. And then to focus on conference and maybe on the user panel because it was the most efficient part of the previous summits. Great. Okay. Anything else on contributor summit? Okay, next topic then was the proposal to move the meeting time one hour later and I think that was approved, right. So 8 UTC was the preferred. Is that correct? That's fine. We only have five voters, but I think, you know, I just forgot to send the mail earlier. But I think it makes sense that we start one hour later. Yeah, thanks for moving with it because yeah, for me it was kind of critical in the past months. So now I can participate with him. Well, and one thing maybe I can add. I think what I proposed is to change that we, when we start with a standard time and leave the daylight saving time that it makes sense then we started nine UTC. Because most of us live here in the, yeah. So it makes sense to keep our low to time, the same. I thought UTC was without. It's the offsets that are daylight savings. UTC is without but our local time is unfortunately a kid schedule and whatever other schedule is in local time. So while it's generally better to have community meetings in UTC than the reality chance in. So it's more about Google Calendar and not about the people going. I think it's, it's more acknowledging that it's okay if when when when the government's metal with the clocks, we accept that that disrupts us and we change our time to fit our best need. Uli, I think what you were saying is that after the time after the clocks are changed nine UTC is better for you because that holds the time constant on your local calendar on your local time. Yes, I think for everybody on this side of the local time stays the same. Man, yeah, that's fine by me. Yeah, so Gavin, are you okay. I assume you're okay with that. As long as I know ahead of time Dylan from is like today was fine but like last week moving it last minute I had meetings afterwards right so I can't do last minute changes but I can do nine. Great. Okay, so then noted that what we'll do is. Right so 8pm utc until the change of clocks in Europe for standard time, and then we will switch to 9pm utc after change of clocks so that we've got the ideas hold the time constant. For participants, because the, whether it's I agree with Gavin whether it's one hour later or not doesn't doesn't affect me much, and if it helps Uli with you and if it helps it all with Oleg, that's the right thing for us to do then. So for me, currently, we keep it on Wednesday's the schedule is more or less clear for the time being so it's either before 530 local time, which is 330 or 430, depending on the terms on the utc or after 10pm local time, which is either eight on nine. So, so this is a good, this is a good match for you. So current time is perfect. Great. And there are still some risks, but generally it's the best possible time. Great. Okay. All right, so. Yeah, so let's see is there an easy way that I can adjust the meeting to do that automatically probably not we'll have to just do it in November when when the clocks change. And set the time to something that has the time zone to something that has our so the utc is not adjusted, but if you did like your central European time that should adjust. Okay, yeah, but it's still tricky because I would say that it would be easy if we just stop the series of meetings and reschedule it knowing from which date we change the time. Yeah, that works too. And it's just one meeting in the summer times remaining so. Okay, so great. We meet at eight utc and the next meeting in four weeks is already in at nine. Thank you. Okay, so don't really mess with it until then. Right. And that's that works just great. That's a very, very understandable thing. Yeah. Okay, anything else on change of meeting time. Then last topic was proposed adding me as a editor of Jenkins enhancement proposals. The concern I think and all like you asked a really good question. Hey are there specific needs that are prompting that request and I think it was the docker and the guava one Ruby Python, we know is stalled and it would be a good one also to see what you call it Ruby deprecation just that way. Oh, you're in trouble for calling it that before. Oh, did I. Say it through be runtime deprecation. Yeah, there you go that's that's more precise well done. Yeah, so for me. I think the significant issue is not pull request itself. But the fact that this pull requests are not associated with ongoing discussion in the mailing piece. So for me, yeah, one of the problems so that I just miss pull requests in this repository. Even though I'm job editor and it should be on my dashboard. If somebody else approves it. First I don't see it on my dashboard and I might be still late and I currently don't have much hope of processing code get half notifications they receive every day. So, if there was ongoing discussion in the developer million please. Then it would be easier just to drug these changes. And to know that there are panic requests. Well, and yet we've got ongoing discussions on the guava upgrade and I'm not sure that it's one was the last update there. Yeah, yesterday or two or three days ago. But it explains everything because they haven't done anything since the weekend. So, well, and guava guava upgrade there the discussions on the list are really hey here's this plug in making progress here's this plug in and basil noting which ones how close are we to being ready to turn this thing on that kind of thing to make that upgrade. So, for that. It's not a big deal. How we put it. So for me the question is how we just ensure that there are consensus that we go ahead. So for me, Jeff is just secondary it's documentation. So if there is consensus built in them. We go ahead. It's not about updating plugins because the changes on our brainer. But yeah, yeah, I think we just move out of the topic. So, I definitely support having more job editors. And the main question is whether we need to finish the update of the job process first, because we already have plenty of proposal. Yeah, I'm not sure what the other governance board members have had a chance to review it because we made a proposal together. We all approved it. We're most posted to everyone this call I think is approved. So it means that I just need to get it over the line. Because after that it's still kind of undecided. So if you are. If we approve this change, then your job editors will be still kind of bottle neck. But we will expect the majority of changes will be driven actually by champions of the Japs. So we could open floodgates and have grant permissions to more people. So, and I may be behind I know the process change had been proposed I didn't remember seeing any notes on on getting agreement. But that sounds great to me. Yeah, that's when I believe in May or in June last time. Okay, we had a review together with demon to agree on the wording. Where are you able to work on that. Perfect where I approved it but I cannot find. I remember being asked specifically to review it as board and maybe it must have been different thing. Anyway, just assign it to me. So I will take a look with the status and let's have a update at the next meeting for Jeff editors. Basically, I'm just plus one if you have more editors. Great. Okay. Mark, are you ready to be a chapter editor. Because I'm concerned about your bandwidth. I'm ready to help. And yes, I will continue to be concerned about my bandwidth in this case it feels like it's a bottleneck that would help us to improve so I'm prone to say yes. I would just at all established contributors today. I mean, everyone who participates in governance meeting called board members all officers. I have no problem is just expanding it significantly from the current state. So for us. Well, for us. Basically, Jeff editors are not responsible for safety and quality ejecting. They're responsible just to ensure that the format is followed. The rest is handled by the community in the current process or in the new process. And I think I think I think what the goal I believe that Tim has is, let's get those things so that the jet process is not perceived as a barrier to us and improving to doing the guava upgrade and I don't think at this point that it is a barrier but let's let's just be sure. So, no objections to me if acting as somebody perceives it as better that we definitely could something could do something better. So, yeah. I suggest to just at all officers and board members as job editors. Yeah, that that would also work. I mean, there was think that can really happen that if something goes completely wrong. Then we can reverse the pull request that's it. Right. One editor proves that does that mean it's done. So editors. They basically ensure that the format is followed. And for the rest of the changes, they just do administrative thing basically accept the pull request when they approved by the sponsor or by the BDFL delegate. Jeff editors do not make a decision whether Jeff is accepted to know it's in the current process BDFL delegate making this decision. Okay, so adding more people doesn't mean more people can approve it just means more people have eyes on it. Yeah, so yeah, there is some potential risk for mistakes. So for example, somebody with mercy permission can the merciful request that it's not basically approved because we had some I mean that's dealable with us and it's not necessarily changing with this. So yeah, I don't think it's an issue with Yeah, so I believe that everyone will act in a good intent anyway. Yes, some mistakes may happen. Okay, we can correct them. That's it. So it's not like somebody merges pull request and then we have a news open standard that hundreds of enterprises depend on that and we can never change it. It's not the case for Jeff process. Anything else on the on the propose proposal to for a JEP editor and the ongoing to the proposed changes to JEP one. JEP one just next meeting. Nobody remembers where exactly. And a strong suspect that the ball is actually on my side. So, yeah. For the rest. Yep, I want to slightly change where it's just consider adding all officers. I think we want to wait for weeks until elections over. Instead of doing it once and then doing it again when the election happens. It doesn't really matter. It just seems doubling up for work. Well, Well, I remember I thought it was November. Yeah, I think whatever works. Yeah. So, yeah, for the time being, I will just take an action item to review the pending pull request. I don't think that other job editors are available right now. So it's basically. Liam. Oh, when my hair again. Tyler JC and Kiki. So I guess none of them are related from JEP front, except JC. But yeah, I will just try to get it over the line in a few days. Yeah, go lovely to be all agreed that we need to do that. So it's just well and and and not only guava the Docker one is pretty much done right we we propose the JEP and we we implemented it. Based on what was proposed. I think it would be enough to, but but it didn't follow the rigorous process of being merged as a draft and assigned a JEP number. And so, so it just we just went ahead and took the liberty of doing it assuming it was okay. Yeah, well, we'll be discussed today in the menu. So there was consensus that we do that. Right. So in this case, JEP is just the documentation models. So yeah, if somebody said that I need more details how the great guidance would be implemented or other things okay. It could require JEP to be finished first. Since everyone was on board the key. Yeah, yeah, I think I think it met our needs. I don't think it slowed us down with the process did not did not get in the way and and we're able to do what we needed to do and the act of writing the JEP actually was quite helpful. For me, because it made me think much more clearly about what we were going to do exactly. So, yeah, no objections. Anyway, we should just get to the line. Okay, so I mean, it doesn't have to have it merged. Right. Anything else on that topic. Any other topics that we're not didn't make it on the agenda that we need. Maybe just quick update from CDF TOC. So, yeah, we have pending topic on the road map for to see the refugee related items. So first of all, we press it is inclusive naming initiative membership. So we have officially applied to the continuous delivery foundation. And we officially asked that Jenkins terminology cleanup is that there's affiliated project there. And there is pending action item to revisit our participation in marketing in October slash November. So, yeah, hopefully we'll discuss it in a few weeks. So Alex or was ready. They just asked for some assistance somebody to join for interview. We reached out to Alex or he was up to doing that. So we will just need to recover this contact. Okay. And what else interesting there. There was application from Jenkins Kubernetes operator to be a project in the content is the foundation. So the CDF TOC review to that basically our feedback was that we do not see why it has to be separate project. The ball is on the requesters side to do the visit it and to address our comments. This, yeah, basically at that point, the project didn't seem to be distinguishable enough from Jenkins in terms of a system community. So we didn't seem to be justified enough to have a separate project. So I mentioned it because it was one of concerning topics. So what else. Yeah. So, the tone is preparing to are planning for the data status. And what is important for us the scheduling external security audit. So the step we skipped one year ago when you were doing Jenkins graduation. But the advance tone of place the way we might want to revisit the Jenkins security audit. Yeah, I know that Jenkins security audit would be a massive endeavor. So it's definitely something we should talk about after the election. I'm sure what Daniel plans to remain security officer. Let's see. But yeah, once everything settled on that front, I think that you will need to at least discuss external order. And yet, there are also discussions about infrastructure. Of course, so stay tuned to this topic may come again to us. But here right now, there is just kind of expectation from Jenkins. So they have governing board that the infrastructure cost for the continuous delivery foundation is reduced. I just remain the same for the time being, but it might be a question. Yeah, there was discussion whether we apply for Microsoft sponsorship again in the governance board. But yeah, in the next year, it might become a problem to handle. And that one worries me worries me significantly. So, yeah, let's be sure we have that discussion. Yeah, let's see. So, sponsorship wise, we can find some options. I'm not too concerned. Just need to plan in advance, especially if we need to invent various multi cloud solutions. To be honest, I would rather prefer to avoid that. But yeah, the same time finding cash specifically for Microsoft asian might be a problem to let's see. Okay. Yeah, and we've, we've successfully reduced our Azure spend and increased our AWS spend over the course of the last few months so we're but but that decrease still is just to keep us in budget. It's not not not been a, oh dramatically below the budget if I remember correctly. And the related topic transfer of the Jenkins AWS account to the continuous delivery foundation. So, yeah, basically no progress. I'm not allowed to work on that until November 1. Right, and I've got people asking about it as well so we may be able to make some progress before November 1 it'll depend. So basically your mark and all of you and all the threats, I believe, as well as the Jenkins board. Currently, it needs to be somebody else to drive it. Right. Okay. Okay. So, yeah, I think that's it from CDF updates. Any other topics. I'm not really board related, but I wanted it on the recording how well the October fests stuff has been received the October channel, October Fests channel has been really active. And I saw there's a lot of docs work as well. There is a digital ocean October Fests discord that people can also join to get more help more community. I'm not going to join this year but I haven't yet. I joined the discord channel. For me maintaining discourse discourse just for October Fests is probably too much. There's too many chats open. Yeah, no, I mean, I will connect by my work discord so it doesn't bug me unless I'm working. So we probably should encourage people are going to organize some hacker garden events. I'm not sure. Well, this year we didn't announce October Fests and menu please et cetera, but it didn't event. Yes, today or day before. Yeah, right yesterday or day before. Whatever. But yeah, it went, I think it went really well people have been really excited but there's been pull request. So I just wanted to watch the recording and the white equals also happy to receive pull request for security policy updates. So, yeah, thanks a lot to everyone who participated. So we should try to organize more lens. So in my case, I'm organizing. So firstly, I was speaking about Jenkins and October Fests on Sunday, you had a panel with this maybe three or 400 participants. So we're organizing Jenkins, sorry, Russian speaking meetup on October 17 and Swiss Jenkins meetup on 30s. But if you see some opportunities to facilitate it in local communities, why not. We know that there are many Jenkins users and for example, yeah. Great. Yes. So, thanks Uli for your presentation at our Hacktoberfest launch and thanks to Vodek for his presentation. I, I was delighted to learn something from Vodek's presentation that I didn't expect I thought I was just going to be there hearing and and be an active participant and instead he taught me some things. Oh, I need to do this and this and the things that I maintain. So good, good positive. Thanks. And also Angelic did recording for localization guidelines specifically for French localization. And yeah, maybe. So one of my topics for Hacktoberfest if I have time to write code is to finally rework translation assistance plugin. So instead of doing what is doing now it would be basically generating property files so that somebody submit a public request with patches after editing things right in the web UI. But yeah, it's big maybe at the moment. Yeah. Okay, any other topics we need to get on the list today. Is anyone speaking Japanese. Okay, so there will be the object is Japan in December. There is still opportunity for someone to present. I reached out to several community members who speak Japanese. But here there are open slots. And I assume it's strongly preferred Japanese speakers presenting. So, well, my personal, I was presenting last year there. And my experience that you basically if you don't speak Japanese it's not the best experience, neither for audience nor for speaker. Yeah, basically, you do presentations and it pre recorded, then it's translated to Japanese without actually profiting. Then there is a presentation played just by recording can speak even cannot answer questions. So the boards tries to answer questions on their own. Somehow so. Yeah, last time I participated. I don't think that's great for anyone. So, a key hero will be presenting there. Yeah, hopefully you will have more people involved. So if you want to say hello to Adam. I would appreciate that. Adam, I'm sorry. Adam Popeye, who is in Japan. Oh, I did not realize he was based in Japan I will I will ping him. I, I'm, I'm becoming far too detached from where people physically are it's embarrassing. Yeah, but yeah, I guess that's it. And you're sorry for taking with this topic. Okay, we are currently at the end of the hour. Let's call it done thanks everybody thanks very much for being here. I'll upload the recording probably two or three hours from now. Okay, thanks for handling that. Mark, can I pick your brain after recording is done. Oh yeah, hang on I'll just stop the recording now then you bet.