 I'm Mark Shklov, the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Seat program. Today we're going to cross the sea to Buffalo, New York to talk with Hugh Russ. Buffalo, New York is the seat of Erie County. Hugh Russ is a trial lawyer and a partner in the law firm of Hudson Russ LLP, which is located in Buffalo. On May 14, 2022, Mr. Russ was the president of the Bar Association of Erie County. On May 14, 2022, 10 people died at Topps friendly market in Buffalo as a result of a racist attack. I've asked Mr. Russ to share his personal and professional insights about the recent mass shooting in Buffalo, because I believe it's important to keep discussing these events and issues. Welcome, Mr. Russ. Hugh, may I call you Hugh? Please do. Hugh, thank you for being my guest today. I know these are difficult times, a difficult subject. First, I want to ask you, could you please describe what Buffalo, New York and its citizens are like? What kind of city is Buffalo, New York? And what's its ambience? And has it changed at all since May 14? Those are all good questions. I'll do my best. And thanks for having me, Mark. Buffalo, New York is known as the city of good neighbors. And I think before May 14th of this year, we citizens of Buffalo believed that we were good neighbors and that we were all together one city. I think that was probably a false notion, certainly an optimistic notion. Buffalo is really two cities. Physically, the east side of Buffalo is separated from the west side of Buffalo and its suburbs. And it's separated right along Main Street. Some of the separation was intentional, I think. Other events happened that added to it. But Buffalo is basically, depending on how you count or which poll you listen to, the second or the sixth most segregated city in America. And east of Main Street where these shootings occurred is largely African American. The store, the grocery store where the shootings occurred is really the only grocery store on the east side of Buffalo that the people who live there can visit and buy the necessary goods for daily living. And I think before May 14th, like I said, we all thought we were one happy city, but I think that was ignoring the reality of things. The east side of Buffalo is economically depressed. Lesser opportunities exist for advancement. I alluded to some of the things that were done physically to separate or to segregate Buffalo. In the 1950s, an expressway was built right down the middle of the city, separating the east side from the west side. After World War II, the programs that were available to white veterans were not available to black veterans. There's a whole long history of redlining. So that's a long way of answering your question, but Buffalo is a segregated city, I think well-intentioned, but well-intentioned, but not a city of equal opportunity. So the way it portrays itself in its own mind may not be accurate in reality, as far as the citizens are concerned. Reality is different from what people may imagine. I think that's accurate. If you're African American living on the east side of Buffalo, you have a much different perspective than if you're living elsewhere in Buffalo or the suburbs are white and have more opportunities. On May 14th, you were the president of the Bar Association of Erie County. Is there a connection with that Bar Association in Buffalo? What role does the Bar play in Buffalo in the city? So that's a good question as well, and I'd have to back you up a little bit. My term as president of the Bar Association is basically a year long. At the beginning of my term, I made it my number one priority to involve the Bar in diversity, equity, and inclusion issues, issues involving racial justice. And I wrote an open letter to the Bar Association, which is about, there are about 3,000 lawyers in Buffalo. I wrote an open letter about structural racism and white privilege, and I basically described my own life in which even though nothing's been handed to me, I think I've had opportunities that weren't available to others, and maybe I received a boost in life. And so we've spent a year working on racial justice initiatives, education initiatives, and then this event occurred on May 14th, and my initial reaction obviously was shock and horror. And I just, every time you see one of these events on TV, you see the news people interviewing witnesses, and invariably they say something like, I never imagined this would happen in my city. And that was my feeling exactly. These things don't happen here. And so the Bar Association has tried to respond in several ways, one by raising money, two by helping to gather food and goods to be distributed since there's nowhere to shop right now, three educational programs, four offering counseling and other emotional support services. But I think our real role more long term is continuing the initiatives that we had started almost a year ago. And for me personally, I've heard a lot of news reports and I've heard a lot of people say, oh, the shooter must have been a lone wolf, he must have been this crazy guy. He was a heavy duty right wing racist. And that explains what happened. Well, I'll tell you where I'm stuck. I'm stuck at, those things all may be true. He may have been acting alone. He may be a racist. He may have psychological problems. But something about our society encourages maybe even sanctions that kind of behavior. And I think it's has something to do with structural racism and white privilege and an attitude that we have, or that we as a society have, that isn't necessarily in your face racist behavior. But like I said, it tolerates or fosters or encourages this kind of thinking and these kinds of actions. So I think our work going forward is to, I mean, there's some obvious things, I think, like gun control initiatives. But I think the real work to be accomplished is going to occur day to day, person to person, little step to little step. Do you have a feeling of what motivated this killer? I mean, you're talking very personal, and I can feel it, your feelings. And you're saying that this motivation is more society wide than individually wide. That's what I hear you say. And this particular killer, do you have any feelings about why he was motivated to go to top's friendly market? Yeah. So, I mean, this has all been reported, but he comes from a town about 200 miles from Buffalo. It's much more rural than Buffalo. Buffalo is a blue city in a red state, much like New York City is a blue city in a red state. The area where he came from is probably overwhelming red. You know, I guess some of the red flags were there. He was, I think, a troubled kid. There's talk that he had tortured animals. But what seems to happen to him was that he became involved in websites, the dark web, some of the extreme right wing chat rooms. And he planned this out very thoroughly. He picked Buffalo. He picked this tops because it is the blackest zip code in the black part of the city. And the highest concentration of black people and anywhere in New York State, maybe outside, maybe there are parts of New York City that might be more, but certainly within driving distance of his own. And so he very carefully planned to go to this store where everyone shopped. And then I think he had plans to continue on in the neighborhood and just sort of randomly shooting people. That thankfully didn't occur. But he was definitely motivated by extreme right wing chat rooms. And he published some of his intentions as time went on, but also right before these events. And some of the discussion now is, did others know about this and should something have been done to stop him? But I think his motivation was just hatred of black people. A couple days after the killings, you wrote a letter as president of the Bar Association of Erie County to your Bar members. What was that about? Why did you do that? What was the purpose of your letter? What did you say? The purpose of the letter was mostly because this was a horrific tragedy that affected everyone. And the tragedy was horrible, obviously. But I think there was also a realization that people had for the first time that maybe we weren't that great of a city. And maybe we did have racial problems that we didn't think we had. So I wrote the letter to express my own feelings of just profound sadness and some anger. I wrote the letter to try to comfort the extent that I could, our members. I wanted to express our solidarity. And I wanted to put the message out there that we're not going to give up. We're not going to give up. We have to work on these issues. There's an African proverb. I know it's been repeated by Bishop Desmond Tutu. How do you eat in elephants? Small bites. And I would add lots of mouths. But it's like I was saying, I was trying to keep everyone's work going. We really had made some progress both within the bar and within the community. And I just didn't want everything to end. Because one of the most profound feelings I had was just, are we accomplishing anything? Has this whole year been a wasted effort? Is the problem too big for anyone to fix? And so I was trying in some small way to get over those concerns. But yeah, you were feeling kind of at a loss, I guess. I mean, these circumstances, especially now. I mean, there's so many other things happening. And I can see your reaction was such disappointment. What was the reaction to your letter from the other members of the Bar Association? Mostly it was positive. And the response, the outpouring of good wishes and donations and people giving their time pro bono has really been amazing. But honestly, there were some lawyers who responded to me saying this for a long time, a lawyer who expressed to me that the east side of Buffalo is always violent and there's always crime. And this was his words. These people have been shooting each other for years and no one pays attention. Now a white middle class kid shoots 10 of them. And this is supposed to be news. So there is this mostly out, mostly unspoken, but there is this under it's very troubling. Okay, so you said there's an undercurrent of what would you call that undercurrent that still exists in society now? I mean, I think it has to do with I think it's a historical phenomenon. I think historically white people have been advantaged and historically black people have been disadvantaged. I don't think anyone can argue that. You know, since the first slave ship sailed up the James River in 1619, we've had slaves and we've treated African Americans as less than humans. But I think what a lot of this turns on is the idea that if I afford black citizens the kind of opportunities that they've historically been deprived from having, that I as a white person must necessarily give up some of my, I don't know, my advantage. The obvious example people talk about all the time is although you say affirmative action, if you let a black student into XYZ college, then my own kid doesn't get into XYZ college. How is that fair? I mean, I guess the economic term is zero sum game, I guess. Yeah, what your comments are not isolated. The other day I was walking around my neighborhood here in Hawaii, which is one of the most diverse states in America, and two of my neighbors mentioned during the walk, they were out walking, that Juneteenth was a holiday, Juneteenth I guess, it's a federal holiday today. But they said they didn't know what it was about, what they were celebrating. Now, I think they did. But how do you talk to the lawyer that wrote you that note and neighbors about racism in America? I mean, do you talk about it? How do you, what's, is there a conversation? That's an interesting question. And, and I think I will answer it ultimately, but I got to say one thing first. I think it's harder to talk about these issues with people you're close to than it is to, you know, strangers or distant colleagues. And so when you're talking about neighbors who might not share the same ideas that you do, those are really hard conversations. That being said, I think, I guess I would say two things. One, I think we have to have the conversations both as individuals and as a larger society. As a society, you know, I think it's, you know, that the new dirty word is critical race theory, which as far as I can tell only means include African American history in American history. I don't know what's so terrible about that. But, you know, I think, I just think we have to continue all the educational initiatives that have started in the last few years. And, you know, there, but, and there are some other things. I mean, I think, you know, I think a lot of this is, it's happening in a country now is related. I think the attack on January 6th at the Capitol, the attempts to suppress voter rights, you know, the big lie. I just, there's a, there's a resistance that we have to, you know, fight every day. And so I think we have to have those difficult conversations. And you're talking, I mean, you're, you're saying we have to talk. I mean, we have, we can't be silent. In your letter to your Bar Association members, you indicate that we constantly face new problems. And we forget about these tragedies. You indicate and you, that we got to remember. And you quoted Abraham Lincoln, you said we have to, we should resolve that these people should not have died in vain. I want to put up the list of the names of the people while you answer the question too. What actions can be taken so that these people shall not be forgotten. And their deaths shall not be in vain. I think it, it, it starts probably in our own workplaces where we have to be better about diversity, equity, inclusion. I think it starts in our schools where we have to be better about teaching the true history of the United States or an inclusive history of the United States. I think it, I think it continues with working against attempts to restrict voting rights. Yeah, I don't, I don't mean to get overly political. But, you know, I think, I think we have to do a better job of holding the people whom we elect accountable. And, you know, to the extent that some of our public figures are spouting overtly racist comments or maybe thinly veiled racist comments, I think we have to hold them accountable for that. I mean, you indicated it's easy, it's certainly easier to stay silent and just kind of take it. And I mean, I live a charmed privileged life. It would be much easier for me just to go about my daily business. But I think we're called to do something more. And I think we all have a responsibility. Well, in that regard, you did also in, in your letter to your bar members, you indicate that great suffering can provide us with great opportunities for growth. Well, what role lawyers play in this matter? That's a great question. So I think it's many different roles. I think it's, it can be the role of doing pro bono work. I think it can be the role of not standing by silently when you witness something inappropriate happen at a closing or in a courtroom. I think it can be better hiring practices that your law firm or your business or your government officer or wherever you are. I think it can be speaking out. You know, like it or not, people look to us lawyers as, as leaders and you know, I don't think we can avoid that responsibility. So I hear you saying we got to remember what happened. We have to be resolved. And we got to react. We got to do something. We got to be active. Now, in that we have about a minute left. Is there anything the Hawaii State Bar Association can do to help Buffalo or your bar association? Any, any thoughts in that regard or any closing thoughts you'd like to add? Yeah, I mean, I think that there are some very concrete things those inclined to help can do. I mean, you just can go on the internet and see any of the organizations that are leading efforts to help. It can be as little as giving money. But I mean, you began this program by saying that Hawaii is very diverse and and I trust you at your word. You know, that's something that you should cherish and you should protect. And I mean, lawyers have a role in almost everything that occurs in the society these days. And I think it starts, you know, in your own backyard, take care of your own backyard. And all the lawyers who are listening or who are watching, I would suggest that you know, start, start at home, start in your business, start your firm. And the sum total of the little efforts we all make will make a difference. Hugh, I want to thank you for being my guest today and really sharing your personal and professional insights with us. I can tell this has been tough for you and it's tough for many people in Buffalo, especially the survivors. And as we close out, I would like to one more time just as we close, put the names up because I think as you said, we got to remember and resolve and react. So yeah. And just as we're closing, I would simply say you think this could never happen in your own hometown, it can. And that's what we have to work to avoid the next one. We got to be active. We're going to talk. Hugh Russ, thank you very much. Aloha. Aloha. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.