 Welcome. I'm Maria Bama Morales. When you refer to me, you should use she and her pronouns. I am a light-skinned black woman with curly black hair that I've braided and it's falling down the right side of my face and I'm wearing a Heather Gray jumpsuit on. I'm greeting you from my temporary living room. We are so glad you made it and we're glad you're here because it's time for real talk. While we're having real talk, you should know that in an effort for this event to be accessible to as many parts of our community as possible, it's being recorded. For that same purpose, it's also being communicated via American Sign Language. If you would like to access the American Sign Language portion, you can pin the video of Brandon or of Maria. I share the name with an American Sign Language interpreter here. You could pin their video, but their boxes will also be available this whole time. Why are we here? Why are we here doing this real talk panel discussion? We're here because I'm going to read to make sure I get this correctly. A group of people created an amazing document very recently and they want us all to take it on, use it, make it better, access it, and keep it going. Those folks are Tara Aisha Willis, Michael Sakamoto, Emily Johnson, Janita Castro, Juma Tatu M. Ho, Laura Colby, Sarah Greenbaum, Brian Rogers, Karen Sherman and Amy Smith. They wrote and compiled the Creating New Futures document. In my own words, the premise of the document is fourfold. Number one, artists are workers. That's us. Number two, our working conditions are not good. Number three, our theater and concert dance industry hierarchy has long been inequitable and the pandemic just made that more obvious. It was already obvious to most of us. And number four, more importantly, let's fix it now. The folks who wrote this document are calling it phase one and they acknowledge that there's a lot more work to be done. That brings us to this evening. They invited me, Maria Bomb and Morales, to moderate a panel discussion with some folks that they feel are really well equipped to dissect, critique, engage with, take further the working group's work. And I imagine that they invited me because I'm a community organizer with Acre, artists co-creating real equity, and I'm an artist at the helm of my dance company, MB Dance, where we are lifting up and celebrating queer people of colors, bodies and imaginations and stories. And of course that includes my own stories. Before going further, I want to make sure that we honor this moment. We are connected, but we are not physically together. People are cooking dinner right now and watching this. They're having drinks. They're often alone or with only a pet. Today on Turtle Island or the place that we call the United States, thousands of people have died because of COVID-19. And they've died because of the racism and classism that exacerbates COVID-19. At the same time, creative scientists and curanderas are working quickly towards remedies and cures. The organizers are working to end racism and classism in our lifetimes. And workers are spending their time, energy, and labor to keep some semblance of the lives that we knew before the pandemic and also they're working to earn money for their families. We just take a moment and acknowledge the time and place we are in. The work of the Phase One working group would not be possible without some folks who came before them and who came before us in this movement. I want to call the names and honor only a few of the many, many, many people who have been part of the various labor movements that we now find ourselves called to be a part of as artists. We continue this work forward because of people who stuck their necks out before us. People like Sojourner Truth, people like Lucy Parsons, people like Martin Luther King Jr., and the SCLC with their Poor People's Campaign, Dolores Huerta, and Cesar Chavez, Philip Veracruz, the Brotherhood of the Sleeping Car Porters, that's a Black organization that we are indebted to, the Asian Pacific American Labor Alliance, as well as Ai-jen Poo. Those are only some of the folks whose path we are now traveling on. No matter where you are, the invitation is to be as tall and proud as you can right now so that we open ourselves up as containers of fire and vessels of imagination for this discussion. I offer that we take three deep breaths in together now. The first breath is an honor of all those who have come before us, our ancestors named and not named, the people who paved the way for us to do what it is we're doing right now. Here we go. May we take another collective breath in and out together to honor ourselves and this whole community. None of us showed up here and are alone. We're each part of a collective movement. May we honor each other with this next breath in and out together. And for our third breath in and out together, friends, family, community. In the words of Frances Lucerna, who is at the helm of El Puente, for the sake of what? For the sake of whom? Why do we care about a more equitable future in our dance and performance presenting fields? May we take a deep breath in and out of those people, our grandchildren, our sibling artists, for whom we do this work. There are a lot of other folks's beautiful faces on the screen with me and I'd like to pass it off to them. They are the phase one working group. As I've mentioned, I was not one of the original writers of the document but these folks were and so they're here to give a brief introduction and tell you their creation story. Thank you so much for being here and sharing time with us. Jumatatu and I have been asked by the working group of creating new futures to read a statement compiled by Emily Johnson with input from the entire group. Pandemic brought us here and there's simply no way to begin without saying that. Our hearts and energy are with everyone who is grieving, everyone who is scared, everyone who has suffered loss. As people fight for their lives, as laborers do the essential work they need to do to keep people alive, to keep transportation running, and food being produced and delivered. We also acknowledge tools of settler colonialism, systemic inequality, erasure and capitalism that brought us here. There are many systems to change and they all relate to one another but we look forward to radical re-imaginings to possibilities forthcoming and to a multiverse of collective efforts as we work to create new futures in the dance and performance field with you. Futures here is intentional. Our futures are not defined by the racist and capitalist systems that we have inherited. Our futures are defined by the work we do and trust we build to live and act and care for one another. The creating new futures phase one working group includes myself, Janita Castro, I'm a light-skinned Puerto Rican woman wearing a gray shirt and with long gray hair. Laura Colby, I am a white woman with blonde curly hair wearing an embroidered shirt with a necklace of red glass beads. I am Sarah Greenbaum, I'm a white woman with a white shirt and brown hair pulled back with an orange patterned bandana. I'm Emily Johnson, a light-skinned epic woman with long dark hair wearing a black tank top and long earrings here in the Napa Joaquin. I'm Juma Tatu Poe and I'm a black person with light brown skin with a growing beard on my face. I'm wearing a yellow sweater and have shoulder length kinky twists tied back with a colorful patterned headband. I'm Brian Rogers, I'm a white man with short gray hair and glasses wearing a light blue shirt and a brown jacket. I'm Michael Sakamoto, a Japanese-Chinese man wearing black glasses, a black shirt, and I have a shade 10. I'm Karen Sherman, I'm a white woman with short dark hair and some gray hair and I'm wearing a gray button-up shirt. I'm Amy Smith, I'm a white woman with purple hair and a purple sweater. I'm Tara Ayesha Willis, I'm a light-skinned black woman with curls up in a big puff at the top of my head and dark glasses and long wooden earrings. So we co-authored and compiled the document creating new futures, working guidelines for ethics and equity in presenting dance and performance. We came together through social media and real world connections and we came together quickly during the height of cancellations in our field and the beginnings of the COVID-19 pandemic. There was urgency and speed to which we worked, an attempt to respond at the speed of emergency. There are many people, collectives, actions, and ways of being that we individually acknowledge and bring forward into our process. There are decades of work preceding the action of this working group. We give gratitude to the people and ancestors who did their work so we could do this work together now. Even still, there are so many people, collectives, actions, and ways of being we neglected to include based on our own oversight due to the limits of our collective knowledge base. But beyond ignorance, there are those we neglected in spite of our knowing better. Those whose diligent work and resistance have inspired and taught us all. In our urgent pacing, we also acknowledge we made poor choices. For example, the almost altogether exclusion of the impact of the struggle for disability rights and health justice on our field and on our own advocacy. We need to do better and must do better. We are a group of 10, but dozens of arts workers across the geography of what is called the United States contributed to this document through interviews and conversations. Change needs all of us who are willing to make it. And as we finished the document draft, we sought a larger public conversation. We felt that asking folks other than ourselves to shepherd this dialogue was another way to expand perspectives. So the working group suggested people we thought would be willing and interested to delve deeply into the document and speak to what is here. And importantly, what is not here. They are the readers leading today's discussion, Hollis Ashby, Shane Fernando, Miguel Gutierrez, Joseph Hall, Millicent Johnny, and Ronnie Pinoy. All will bring their observations, reflections, and lived experiences to tonight's real talk. Thank you, all of you. Thank you to Maria Bauman Morales for facilitating. Thank you, Miguel Gutierrez, for gifting the name real talk for the night. Thank you, Abrans Arts Center and HowlRound for your support in sharing the document and real talk. Thank you to LC Interpreting Services and ASL interpreters, Maria Cardoza and Brandon Cays and Maddox, who are working with us. Mirabai Knight, who is live captioning. Blaise Ferrer, Charles O'Leary, Demetrius Morrow, and Catherine Tom, who are wizarding our tech. Antonia Marcart, who is describing tonight's conversation. Thank you, MAP Fund and NPN Arts, who, once we began working, offered to support the process. This real talk conversation seeks, with input, feedback, complications, and ideas from all of you, to be a catalyst for phase two. Phase two is yet to be defined. It will become what it is by the arts workers who guide it. The phase one working group plans to help transition the project to the next folks in order to ease the administrative burdens and provide context. We have been raising funds with the help of Stan Lynn Verwey at NPN and Moira Brennan at MAP Fund in order to ensure phase two working group has resources to begin. We want to remind you that the document itself is living. It is not done and requests feedback from all readers with an embedded feedback form in the bottom right corner after each section. The document will undergo a revision after tonight's real talk. You can reach out with questions or ideas on the comments section in Zoom or on Facebook. We are compiling your questions and feedback and while we and the readers will not be able to respond to each comment tonight, they will be included in a transcript of tonight's discussion and incorporated into our phase one to phase two transition. Thank you for bringing yourselves, your ancestors, your experiences, and your open mind to this process, to this emergent and hopeful time. Thanks, Maria. Thank you, Janita, and thank you, Jumatatu, and thank you to the whole working group as well as all of the people who contributed to this amazing draft, first draft, of this document. So, folks might be like, what document? I just heard about this panel, but what are you all talking about? So, again, we are referring to a document called Creating New Futures, and it has a sort of long title, so I want to get it right, Creating New Futures, Working Guidelines for Ethics and Equity in Presenting Dance and Performance. I could be wrong, but I think that URL, a web address for that, is being pinned or could be added to the comments right now because as Jumatatu mentioned, all of our feedback is welcome. And on every page of that document, there's a link at the bottom where everybody can add questions, comments, ideas for moving forward. So, there's this whole panel of readers that Jumatatu and Janita just mentioned, and those readers have started to pop up on our screens, hopefully. And there are folks who I'm going to ask questions to tonight to give us all a little more insight into this document and into the movement really that we're being called to join. You know, the document really is a call to action. It's not a call for, I'll say what it is, it's a call to action. So, the people who are helping with the call to action tonight are on the screen now and they're each going to pop in and give a little hello and introduction of themselves before we continue with the conversation. We'll also say that there is a Google doc that's been linked and pinned where our fuller bios are listed. Okay. So, these are going to be brief descriptions so that we can have more time for discussion. But if you want that background, please do click on the biography link. So, Ronnie, hello. Hello. Hello, everyone. I'm Ronnie Pinoy. She, her, hers. I'm Laguna Pueblo and Cherokee living on Piscataway lands, also known as Washington DC. I'm a producer with octopus theatricals, a composer of musical theater, and a facilitator with groundwater arts. And I have a black shirt, a long hair, and a red lipstick, and I am light skinned. Hello, everyone. My name is Joseph Hall. I am living on the land of real estate. And I am also known as Pittsburgh. I'm the new executive director of the Kelly Strangham Theater and also a performer. I am a queer black man, bald head, and a dark green mock neck, turn my. Hello, everyone. I'm Hollis Ashby, professionally I'm the artistic and executive director of the Williams Center for the Arts at Lafayette College, located on the land of the Lenny Lenape, also known as Eastern Pennsylvania. I am a woman with shoulder length brown hair and brown eyes, and I have a dark gray shirt on tonight. I have made my living in the performing arts for 38 years, most of that time in California, but now here on the land of the Lenny Lenape in multidisciplinary presenting. Miguel, I'm going to interrupt you. Maria here. We're getting a lot of comments that we can't hear you and we don't want to miss it. Could our technical wizards help us out? Also, Juma Tatu is still on our screen, which is lovely and amazing, but unplanned. And Millicent Johnny is not on our screen, which we want to rectify immediately. Could we get some assistance with any of those three items? This is a version of sort of technical crew that we all knew and missed probably from our live performance. So we offer those requests with much love and respect, tech team. Okay, Miguel, why don't you give it another try? Don't hear Miguel. So why don't we skip to Millie and then Shane and then we'll circle back to you, friends. Hey, everybody. I'm Millicent Johnny. I am a Black Creole woman of French heritage from the land of Atacapa. Apollousus prairie tribe. Very excited to be here. I have on a yellow hello with red earrings and honey colored hair. My apologies for that, Millicent. I'm sorry I was testing. Can you hear me now? Okay, it's a little quiet this way, but okay. Let's try it again. My name is Miguel Gutierrez. I'm Shane Fernandez. Oh, who's going? Is it Shane? I had said Shane and then we'll circle back. I'm sorry, I couldn't hear it. I was trying to fix it. You're perfect. Yeah, we're making it by doing. All right, Shane, you're up. You go ahead. Go ahead. I'm Shane Fernando from Wilmington, North Carolina on the land of Atacapa and Wacama people. I'm executive and artistic director of the Wilson Center at Cape Gear Community College and programming consultant at Daly and Hall Center for the farming arts, as well as president of the North Carolina presenters consortium. I'm a mixed race Ukrainian Sri Lankan queer man with dark hair, wearing a peach shirt and a check blue jacket. Can you hear me now? Is it now good? Okay. Okay. I'm Miguel Gutierrez, third time's a charm. I'm a choreographer, music maker and writer based in Lenapehoking, Brooklyn. Though right now I'm in Florida. I am a young 49 year old light skin, thick, Olympian daddy boy with salt and pepper, hair and beard. And I'm wearing a black t-shirt, gold chain, reading glasses and purplish lipstick that doesn't show up so well on Zoom. I want to say thank you so much readers for contending with this work. And also for all of us, those of you who are not seen on this webinar yet, all the folks who are tuning in, thank you. And may we remember that this is a brand new moment for us. We are not used to holding large community events and panels via Zoom. So the inevitable glitches will happen, but just like when I'm performing on stage or not on stage, we include those in the moment and offer grace to ourselves and each other. I want to start, we're going to go section by section. And what I'm going to do is read for the attendees a little portion of a section from the document so that you can ground yourselves in what it's about. And then I'm going to ask a panelist a question and invite them to kind of contend with it. Other panelists can chime in if they want. And I'll also keep the time so we don't stay here until the break of dawn. All right? Sound good to y'all? Great. So I want to start with the opening sections, the opening statement section of the Creating New Futures document. And Miguel is going to respond to this question first, but then anybody else is welcome to chime in. For anybody who's following along in the document, I'm reading from page 11. I'm reading from page 11. And I'm going to quote it. It says, while we began this document as a conversation within the dance and performance field to address ethical cancellations, it quickly and with great urgency reminded us that to create definitive change, we must align with other workers. And then the writers of the document quoted Deanna Haga of United States Artists. Deanna said, if we can harness this cross-sector, then we stand a shot at a longer-term recovery that is not about artists, but is about labor rights. So Miguel, with that in mind, I want to ask you what resonated with you as you read the Phase 1 Working Group's emphasis on cross-sector worker solidarity? And how do you think we artists can better align with other laborers, with other workers? Thanks, Maria. So I have a lot to say on the topic. To the first part of the question, I think it's great. I'm also skeptical. I think it's really hard. It's hard for us to talk across the divisions in the dance field and because we all occupy very different positions inside of it. One of, for example, one of the, I would say the main, for me, the main missing voice in the document as it exists at the moment, I know it's going to change, is the voice of the dancers. They're almost entirely absent and they are the most exploited, the most undercompensated, the most vulnerable. I feel like I have a lot of privilege in this field, but that took me 27 years to get. And I feel like I'm only just now in a moment where I'm like, I don't give a fuck and I'll talk to whoever. But I think so many cultural workers in the field, and again, specifically the dancers are in such a different position. Even in the document, there's like discussion of budgets, there's contracts, and I think a lot of the people in this field, at least in the area that we're calling the United States, that's just not even where they are. They're dealing with like getting paid shit for tiny little gigs. So there's such a disparity. That said, I think I wonder if we can do two things at the same time. Can we address this power imbalance while also aligning or coming together around a common cause, knowing that we have an end game that is in the end hopefully going to be beneficial to all of us. I think it's going to be very painful. I think it's going to mean people have to talk to people they don't want to talk to or they don't like talking to. I think it's going to have to be people speaking across aesthetic cultural differences and getting over themselves. I think that it's going to mean that we get uncomfortable. I think part of what happens in this field is that very rightly so, we find our communities, our sub-communities, and we get really tight with them. And they become little fiefdoms, little territories. And I think because of the competitive nature of the field, it's really hard sometimes to look just outside your circle to someone else, even in the same place, let alone across the fricking country. Sorry, I wanted to make sure I hit these things. We talk about the professional field, but like I said, that word, what does that mean when people are being compensated at such different levels? So I think we have to be able to really know what those different levels are and what people are actually dealing with. This thing about the gig economy, the gig economy, and how we have to deal with the new gig. The gig economy is not new. It is not new. My 27-year career as a professional artist has only ever been a gig thing, even when I was dancing in companies. Food servers has only ever been a gig economy. The multiple service workers that exist in this field, and many who are dancers, have only ever. So for me, this is like, let's please divest ourselves of the idea that the gig economy is a new construct. It is not. Neo-liberalism has so much to do with this. The deregulation, the lack of worker protection, the lack of any kind of accountability. The way that each person is somehow through the political ideological context of our time is almost forced to think of themselves as an individual. We are divided by the system. We are divided by the system. This idea that everybody has to become an entrepreneur, everybody has to become fluid in the language of business, everybody has to brand themselves. Dancers who apply for things, who send choreography reels. We have to understand that. We are sending mixed messages. We are saying, let's look across each other's lines and stuff. But also, you are an individual with an Instagram account. I don't think we can have it both ways. I think we have to sort of understand, you know, we can't be Gwyneth Paltrow and Dolores Huerta. You can't do both. You have to make a decision. And then two last things. Is it okay if I just say two more things, Maria? I do want to offer some space for other folks to talk about that individualism and solidarity that you're mentioning. So after you do the two, I'm going to open it up so we can talk about that idea of artist as labor in solidarity with other workers. Thing I would just say is one of the things in the document that jumped out to me was this idea, like there's no money in the field. And there is money in the field. There's so much money in the field, right? And there's so many people in the field. There's MAP. There's NPN. There's NDP. There's Guggenheim. There's Jerome. There's New York Foundation for the arts. There's creative capital. There's Mark Arthur. There's Mellon. So we have to realize that this distribution problem that exists on a greater scale exists within the field. There is money. There is money. And then the last thing I'll say, I mean, look at how multiple organizations got together really quickly to create the artist relief fund. Why hasn't that been happening already? And then the last thing I'll say to this issue how can we align ourselves with others? We have to look outside the field. And we have to see that these labor movements have existed across decades. Decades. We're not the first people to think about this. And you have to open up your perspective and look at these other labor movements that you mentioned in the introduction. Sorry. I just had a lot of things I want to say. Not sorry, really. Thank you. Thank you, Miguel. Does that spark anything for any of the other panelists? Because we really have been talking quite a lot and the document does a lot in my mind to undermine the elitism, the internalized elitism that we're fed as artists. Can we think of ourselves as workers? What do you all think? Well, in that case, we can move on because I have a feeling that this will have a snowball effect as we continue. Yeah. I really appreciate your thoughts, Miguel. And I can't wait to keep talking and talking with you all about it. I want to move towards the artist testimonials section. There's a whole section of the document that is voices from artists of all kinds. And Millie was asked to really read and ground herself in that aspect of the document. Thanks, Millie, for being here. For those following along, I'm on page 48 of the Creating New Futures document. And I want to quote Karen Sherman, one of the writers. Karen wrote, to do things differently going forward, we have to be honest about what wasn't working before all this. That includes ways we were complicit, confused, afraid, or willing to gain from others' losses. Dancers are afraid of choreographers. Choreographers are afraid of presenters. Presenters are afraid of funders. Funders are afraid of donors and everyone. Even the crew is afraid of the crew. That's writing an excerpt from the document from Karen Sherman. So Millie, I'm curious, that quote and so many others in the artist testimonials section concerned power and fear. And I know you're an organizer and an artist. I wondered if you could talk with us about some models artists can use or ways you've been trying to purge internalized power dynamics from our creative processes. Sure. Well, one of the main practices that I use when I'm engaging in any community, whether it's on a film project or in the performing arts, is the check-in process, placing all of the participants in a circle and allowing them to just kind of stand and be and acknowledge where they are for the day with the opportunity to see each other in the space and with this deep understanding that the energy you put into the space is an energy that's going to come back to you. It's also, you know, it's a practice that I first learned from what we would do it often with urban Bush women, but also with alternate roots. And then many organizers on the NPN and the NPN circuit and network. It's a way of creating a more of an egalitarian spirit when you're building and creating work and also building trust. It also emphasizes the idea of shared power as opposed to vertical power. I also am really strategic in well, at least in filmmaking, a lot of the dance films that I do, what we have in film called BTL, the below the line positions, which is usually your tech and your crew. I align them with a lot of the creators. So what that means is that they have access to the same type of creative information that the choreographers, directors, writers have in their own contribution to building this thing. So everything feels a little bit more purpose filled, right? So if you can have a gaffer or a lighting technician understand exactly how that lighting contributes to the story and contributes to the overall vision of the creative team, then it seems, at least for me, it's been my experience that everyone feels like they have contributed in a way that's building this larger thing as opposed to being all the emphasis being placed on the individual. Yeah. I'm sorry. I thought I heard something. Other practices, just being very honest and always starting the space with you're going to experience some discomfort and putting it in the context at any time that we try to dismantle or even try to unpack systemic oppression that that idea in itself is ugly, you know, racism is ugly, sexism is ugly, ageism is ugly. And so in order for us to understand that it's ugly, you have to accept that there's going to be some ugliness that's going to come out and you're going to respond inside and around and to that. So just being honest on the front end that, you know, it's going to take some willingness to be vulnerable, to be honest, to be patient, to be uncomfortable and to be okay with being a witness to those kind of the uncomfortable feelings that come up in the spaces, whether that's building the work, whether that's talking about the work, whether that's responding to the work, whether that's going into the community and engaging with the work, engaging with the people who are contributing to the work. That is the work, right? So being able to kind of live in these heart spaces and what I mean by that it's where you can acknowledge and open the heart to receiving information and energy. If you can be honest and receiving that information, then you can respond to it. But I think oftentimes, similar to what Karen offered, there is this state of fear, right? I'm going to lose my job. I'm going to be taken off the next gig. I'm not going to be part of the network. I won't get the funding. I have had my share of that. It just kind of comes with the territory. I always, it's funny, I have a friend, Carlton Turner, he was like, you know, Millicent, you're not wired any other way. You know, I am a freedom fighter at heart. Yes, I acknowledge that. I accept that. That means when I go into certain spaces, that means I am going to lose certain things. So I accept that. I accept that all of this work, all of this education, all of this information that I've collected thus far, it does come, at a cost. But I'm willing to go there, you know, because I know that I don't stand in that alone. And I also, someone mentioned this earlier, I stand on the shoulder of giants and I really understand the impact of that. Generations and generations of collective information. It's so funny what Miguel said earlier. This idea of connecting with the labor and understanding how those industries work together collectively, that's not a new thing. And we do, we need to do some research and figure out, you know, what type of strategies were put in place, because it is time for us to have a dancer's union or a worker's union to protect us, you know. One of my big takeaways from the document, I felt like, although it was mentioned, the voice of the technician, I feel like we need to really go deep inside of that, right? Every time that I enter into a theater space or any kind of performance space, I always make sure that I befriend the technicians. Why? Because my show won't go up if not for them. You know, and it's something about when you come together to build this thing, like there again, especially when the stakes are higher, you feel like, I don't know, when you get to the other side of it, that it's earned, you know. I had participated in this sweat lodge, and it was interesting because in order for us to actually participate in a sweat lodge, we had to actually build the lodge itself. So it was a group of 10 of us, so we collected stones, we collected blankets, we collected all of these things to construct this capsule, so to speak, that would hold our energies, our collective energies together. And it was exceptionally profound, and so I've taken that and I've brought it with me to my creative practice, my creative processes when I'm producing, when I'm writing, when I'm directing, when I'm choreographing, all of that. Everyone is contributing to this larger whole, and I think that can echo into the larger industry. But I think for so long, it's been compartmentalized, so it's been hard to see and acknowledge how everyone has contributed to this larger thing. Yeah. Hello. Thank you for naming that. Yeah, we hear you. We hear you Mel's loud and clear. We hear you. Thank you. You know, oh gosh, you talked about egalitarianism and how from our creative processes, right from the rehearsal space, we can invite is what I really heard. I know you and I are both Southern Millies, so I heard invitation, you know, as a way to combat some of these power structures that keep us really separated. And I wonder if, Ronnie, you have any ideas also about this idea of how can we sort of purge ourselves or release these internalized hierarchies from our smallest ways of working to the biggest policy changes? Yeah. I mean, it's funny that some of the things I had already underlined is a, you know, a huge thing to talk about is that I feel like there's both the what we can do with each other and then these larger questions of how do we change the entire system. And often, I think we feel like, oh, well, can I say this? There can be a bit of passing the buck sometimes of I'm just working within this system. I'm just kind of a cog in it. I can only do my little part. But for me, it's really about taking that accountability that you have to do what is within your own personal power to move the ball forward and think about who's not in the conversation that needs to be. For me, that's huge. I mean, when you both were talking about invitation, I think about something that really transformed my own independent producing practice, which was an artist that I work with, Ania Dove, who has been both in DC and Los Angeles and the NPN Network a lot. And she really brought to me this notion of, you know, what is the invitation to the audience and not just the audience that you're looking to bring into the piece to resonate with, but also who is in the in the community of the theater that's hosting the presentation? Who is around the corner from that theater that she really wants to develop that really close relationship with and understand what is her, how is her piece connected with that? And it really understanding that there was an entirely different way of relating to other people around artistic work that's not about, okay, what is our evil ass going to be? Just, you know, it's it's really flipping that that switch. And I was talking with Emily about this earlier that so often we like to put works about justice on stage, but we don't create the just systems in order to make those shows. And for me, I feel like that is how that is the kind of questioning we have to ask in order to try to break down these these hierarchies. Yeah, I'll just leave it there. I could, I feel like I could talk for a minute. I appreciate it. And I'm going to invite all of the readers actually to unmute yourselves so that you really feel free to engage in more of a flow after the first person has spoken. Yeah, thanks for jumping in on that, Ronnie. I want to move to the programmers perspective section of the creating new futures document. You know, Millie, you mentioned all of the different levels. And I'm purposely doing my hand like this in a vertical fashion, because they really have been set up in hierarchy, as you mentioned. And part of that hierarchy is programmers presenters. And I'm reading from page 75 of the creative creating new futures document, which says, this is Rachel cook from on the boards who's being quoted here. I don't have fears as much as I have stages of grief that I feel like I'm moving through with each artist. Some of these works we have been making together for the last two years, and we were so close to sharing them with an audience. And I was so thrilled to be able to share them and have the experience of being inside each piece that I am deeply sad for that to be lost. Again, that was Rachel cook from on the boards quoted in the creating new futures document. So I'm going to pitch this question to you first, Joseph. In that poll, Rachel so noticeably uses the word we and the language of partnership with artists. And of course, that's what we all hope for. We hope that a programmer, a curator, a presenter is partnering with us as a team. But Karen Sherman, just a little bit before that in the document wrote another truth. They wrote the artist presenter relationship is typically abusive. In abusive relationships, if someone asks, you have to say yes, you can't say no. So Joseph, I'm curious because I know your work. And I wonder what are some of your thoughts on closing that gap between our ideals and our too often lived experiences of worker, higher relationships. Well, I really like that you use the word worker, because I'm going to think about that, you know, more expansively as you've been pitching it throughout this conversation, that the worker may mean the artist, the crew, the, you know, staff are our community as well. And I'm also speaking kind of in the current moment that I'm in, which is beginning a new position as an executive director in what is known as Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and in this moment of being in isolation and kind of turning very locally. So what I feel like I can do in this moment is to think about the institution that I've inherited and to think about ways that we can kind of decentralize power or share power and kind of move away from this singular voice, which is not so important to me. And that's the way that I have worked as a programmer in the past. So how do we do that inside of the institution? How do we kind of spread that power, bring more people into it along the various levels. So what I've been thinking of, you know, recently is certainly the board currently, my organization does not have an artist represented on the board. So that's, you know, one of the, I think, very simple ways that we can distribute power, you know, the executive director is evaluated by the board, I will be evaluated by those folks. And certainly they help us, you know, continue the move the organization forward. So I believe it's, you know, it's important to have representation there, but also on our board committees who are helping to make decisions and kind of the strategically plan for the future. Artists should have representation in terms of the direction of the programming. Certainly there are models for artist councils. And I'm excited about, you know, starting that here and Pittsburgh and I should also say that, you know, I came in with a spring season that I had to cancel, unfortunately, that was all local artists besides one company that was in Philadelphia. So just to kind of give you the lay of the land, so I have been a very local situation here, because I do want to bring in that, you know, our discussion is not only about touring, it can also be about, you know, our very local environments. So in addition to an artist council who can really have their voice in the mix of our programming and trajectory, there are also artists who rent our spaces, our facilities, self-produced, self present their performances. And, you know, unfortunately, usually they're coming into an organization that already has like a set package for them. So how do we involve them within the mix of how that rental program is shaped? For me, I want to distribute the power. That's also true for the staff members. And when we think about transparency, I think a lot of staff members aren't included in the larger discussions. Finances aren't necessarily shared with them. There are times when other times organizations when staff have to be furloughed and it comes as a surprise to them because finances have not been shared. So I think, you know, this whole document to me obviously speaks of transparency. I think that's very important. I also am concerned about what that will mean when funders make that a priority in their applications, just as diversity, equity and inclusion has been a priority. And we have seen how institutions that did not have that as a value have benefited from it. So how will this value of transparency kind of relate to funders? How will they then take that and use it, which will not in the long run perhaps benefit the folks who are trying to put that within our organizations? Joseph, thank you. That's sort of a perfect segue into the next section. And I have to say, I think we all really appreciate that you named some specifics as to what we can do to improve presenter artist relationships with the board, the councils, the staff transparency. We appreciate the specifics. The document includes a set of actual principles and guidelines. And on page 87, it gets at just what you were just talking about, Joseph. I'm reading from the document now. Artists, presenters and funders should prioritize transparency for all parties and within reason, internal policies that directly impact livelihoods of workers should be made public, for example, furlough and layoff policies. Within reason, presenters should update audiences about programming changes and support for artists. They should also consider publicizing layoffs and furlough of workers, any measures to support their staff and any reduction in the compensation of their highest paid employees. So Shane, I'm curious because of your particular vantage point in the field, I'm wondering how, given that we're in such a larger context here on Turtle Island or in the United States of a culture of individualism and silence around money, I'm wondering how you might imagine that arts laborers can shepherd contract and policy transparency, you know, in this climate. We're all saying we want transparency, but how do you think we could get there? How are you imagining when our larger culture doesn't support it? Well, I think it's first important to acknowledge our common goal, whether artists, presenters, artist managers, funders, and leading transformative change in our communities across our country and beyond, and to model what we hope to bring to our communities through our work with each other. So, you know, this section begins to address how do we bring equity to our work? And, and I think additionally, how do we become models of what we want to, what we want our communities to practice? So, you know, the question is, how do we move forward in building a field that rises from and recognizes collective action? And we must acknowledge and accept that we are equal players at the collective table, the work that each of us contributes across the board is essential. And transparency has been again and again, but it is number one. All players need to be knowledgeable about what we're bringing to the table and what our liabilities are. And not only by the end of the engagement, but along each stage and how those resources can be shared to support each other throughout the process, not simply at the end handing over, you know, delivering a guarantee chat after the curtain has come down. But, you know, what are we doing to support the artists, support the artist managers, support all the people across the board who are contributing leading up to the final event. And, you know, many of us, you know, me included being a governmental entity, we cannot pay us, you know, due to our legal designations, but we can utilize various other tools. How are we looking outside the box so that we can get resources and payouts? We utilize phased fees. You break up a project instead of saying, okay, you get your guarantee at the end of it. Okay, this is your site visit. This is this section. This is this section. And we pay out and state it. This is the creation of the score. Okay, we pay that out. So finding ways to break up, you know, those resources so that artists don't go into debt and are carrying this debt while they wait for a guarantee that might happen a year from now. I think also presenters need to, as the way we operate, and I think should look at themselves also as a facilitator instead of being, instead of dictating what terms are, whether it is within what an artist brings to the community, what the community brings up to the artist. And I know many presenters love to say, I know my community, but is that really true? I know, I mean, I grew up in this community. I've, you know, worked as a presenter here 15 years, and I'm still learning about this community. And, and I learned the most about this community when I see artists working with my community members. And that's another thing, you know, when we have dance residencies, we require site visits with our artists. Actually, I go and I go and visit the artist in their community. I see them working in their community. Then I have the artist here. And I invite community members that we identify together at that first site visit. And then when we're sitting around, we bring all the partners together and the artists around the table, we ask the question, who's missing from this table? I know, I don't know everyone in the community. And so those people in the community are recognizing others teaching me, the artists as well. And so I, I, and then when we, we break out and artists speak with community members, I stand back. And I say, artists, you know, bring, you know, talk with the art, talk with the community member, tell them what you, what needs to feed you and your dancers, your company, and the community members, they said the same thing, you know, work with the artists to find what will feed your community. And my role here is to, to listen at the end of it and facilitate what their needs are. And I see too often, you know, presenters coming in, okay, I want this, I want you to do this, I want you to do this, I want you to do this. And what's, what's the outcome of that? What was that, what's truly being created here? And so I think having that, you know, acknowledging that we don't have all the answers. And, and then at the end of the day, it comes down to, you know, from the presenter and from everyone, from the artists, artists, managers, crew up and down the board is empathy, beginning to understand each other's path and challenges, and how do, how do we begin to understand that? And it comes down to the very end of it, transparency, transparency, transparency, how are we educating each other and are we listening? Wow, Shane. That emphasis on empathy really resonates, especially that idea of empathy, as we imagine that not everyone is able to be reimbursed at the end. You know, I appreciate your creative thinking around, okay, if we're not allowed to offer deposits, can we break this project up into a lot of smaller projects and say that project was completed, we pay that project was completed. I'm curious, you, Shane, or any other of the readers and panelists, I'm curious if you have other creative ideas for how we can really talk about the money from a place of empathy and transparency, yeah, not from a place of bureaucracy and policy. Maria. Yeah, Hollis. I reject the idea that we can't pay deposits. I think that's a flaw in our business model. And I think, I mean, we can't, we don't have to say just because I have a parent organization or I'm part of a government, we can't do this. I mean, we really have to crack the egg open and start over because it's tremendously unfair. And if anyone has the chance to read the initial draft, you will be struck by what an imbalance there is in this field. And, you know, I'm not setting myself up as, you know, a model presenter or a practitioner, but I mean, I do try to be ethical in the way I deal with a contract. We're going to talk about more about contracts in a minute. But I have to say I reject that idea. I think that, in fact, I think more agents and artists should make it a condition. Well, Hollis and Shane, you've given us a little trip and I know myself and all the others who are watching are taking notes. Let's hear from Joseph and Menrani. Thanks. I'm also interested in the transparency with our audience and communities on this, you know, idea of finances. You know, I've had the desire to make our cash projections a shareable, you know, live document that everyone can see at any point. I also think, you know, that a lot of folks don't kind of know all of this background. That art is expensive. It takes a lot to create it, to make it. That ticket sales don't pay the fee of the artists, even though that fee isn't even as much as it could be. So, how are you storing that information with the audiences that are in our spaces? Yeah, I think what I'll jump on here is that in my work as an independent producer, where I sometimes take put on an agent hat, it has happened a lot of times that especially university presenters will tell me it's not our policy. It's the policy of the university that we can't do this deposit, right? So, I think that's where the real finding where the power sits and where we have leverage points is so important. Like, for instance, mups, like major university presenters, right? Is there a way that we can kind of galvanize some of our lead funders, the NIFAs, the MAP funds, get a group of people together to go to mups and say, you need to talk to your universities as a body and say, you know, these are what the best practice is. I hate that phrase. But in any case, for the sake of going to the universities, this is something that has been established as being critical to the health of artists. Here is a ton of pressure for you not to look bad in the press. You need to make deposits possible. I mean, everything that we feel is so impossible is just difficult. And it's just about finding the right leverage points and the right banks of power. And the other thing I was just going to offer is I'm a huge believer in publicly transparent budgeting. And in the groundwater arts facilitator hat part of my work, what we're trying to actually build as part of our Green New Theater movement building tool is to really capture all of the organizations, large and small that are making their budgets publicly transparent and giving information on how to read it and how to interpret it. Huge institutions can do it all the way down to small institutions. And it really does create a sense of buy-in that, you know, you are accountable to more people than just your staff if you work in an organization, you know, and that's, I feel like it is so critical that this idea that you can't share that information and why it should be public, who really are you protecting? There may be real things that are really worth it, but what are really the values that are telling you to keep that budget document and that information to yourself. I say one thing on this, do we have time? Thank you. Yeah, and before you do, Miguel, I just want to know. You know, the contrarian in me is hearing, oh. You go ahead. It's the lag of our machines. You go ahead, Miguel, and then I will. Okay, sorry. All I want to say is I feel like we're starting to go into like a real niche jargon-y place. And I'm just really thinking about artists and dancers and performers and who has the time and the day to invest this much into an organization they're partnering with. You know, if we're not on your staff, I don't want to go to five fucking meetings. You know, I don't want to, like, I don't want, unless you're paying me or you're really investing in me, like, as a person in the world, like, there's only so many hours in the day, you know, it reminds me of like the ethical slut or like polyamorous relationships where it's like you have to be in a constant state of conversation and boundary redefining and which is beautiful, but it just, it's like, who has the time, right? So it's just for me about maintaining, there's a little bit for me, like, to what extent are we talking about the organization trying to, like, keep its conscience clear and an artist trying to be whatever they're doing. And I don't think, I'm not suggesting they have to be mutual exclusive, but it's just, it's just what's coming up for me here about, like, who the stakeholders, I hate that word, so fucking much, of these conversations. Yeah, thanks for that. And I'll remind us all also who are part of this conversation now that relationships with large organizations are shouldn't be, but are the privilege of a precious few of us artists. And so a lot of the practices that we're talking about, perhaps are ones that we can internalize, and I'll include myself in this, those of us who don't have relationships with large presenters, mups or otherwise. But can we take these practices into our own area of the field? For instance, I'm thinking, okay, well, from what Ronnie said, and Shane said, and Hollis said, can I publish the budget for the project with my dancers? And they're not my dancers, by the way, but the people who work with me. Or do you know what I mean? I'm just thinking about all the applications for what you all are saying, because not all of us are in big relationships with large organizations. And I was seeing some of the artists who are attending this session named that in the chat. So I wanted to bring it up. My next question is for Ronnie, actually. And, you know, there's a great section of this creating new futures document that relates to alternatives to cancellation, which obviously came up hugely when COVID-19 really ground so many engagements to a halt. And there were contractual ramifications for that. So I'm on page 96 of the document. And it says, Tria Blue Walkpa, in addition to reorienting funds to artists and honoring commitments, is reconsidering impacts, is reconsidering impacts, she noted, our past reliance on continual flying to attend conferences and performances. She wants to consider virtual meetings as a way to practice if we were committed to earth, to an earth-centered way of working. She notes that previous travel-allocated funds can now be used to prioritize paying artists for online engagements now. She works with communities of people who are incarcerated and students online. And Tria thinks community-engaged work online can at times be accessible in ways that expensive travel and the related time constraints are not. So, Ronnie, in reading this, and I know you read it really deeply, I also thought of disabled artists and chronically sick artists who have been either left out of much of the sort of travel-based contracting processes even before COVID-19 or were stuck with the short end of the stick when it comes to cancellation clauses and contracts. Yeah. So, I'm wondering, Ronnie, how do you imagine that we can redo hiring and cancellation policies to work better for those who are already falling through the cracks, as well as those who are in a lurch now because of the pandemic? Yeah. So, I was really glad that you picked this section because one of the things that I think Emily did so beautifully in this section is really highlighted how this crisis is intersectional. It's the way that we're thinking about disability, the way that we're thinking about race, the way that we're thinking about class, the chronically sick, the wide spectrum. This moment of crisis is really revealing all of those vulnerabilities and really laying them bare. It's revealing those power structures and laying them bare. So, the solution then too needs to be multifaceted and needs to be intersectional. That doesn't mean it's impossible or that we can't try, but I do think that if we want to actually create something that's going to work, it has to bring everyone along with us. That means it also has to work with not just a disability lens, but with a climate lens. It has to work with a decolonization lens. It has to work for for everyone if it's going to be something that works. All of that said, something that I know is really important to me as I'm moving forward in this moment and in a lot of these conversations is not just thinking about the big picture, but also thinking about, okay, concretely, as we move into the future, what are the small steps that we can do to try to push things a little bit more in the direction of where we want to go? And I know that for specifically the question you were asking, and Emily hinted at this a little bit in the document, something I thought was so powerful is this notion that there's been a trend for touring artists to add a rider to their work. And also just to put on my thank you for reminding me that this isn't just about presenter artist relationships, but also the world of performance more widely. I think any artist who's generating work and coming into partnership with another person can also be thinking about this. But I've seen, you know, Larissa Fasthorse and Emily as well, you know, have either community or decolonization writers for what they need in order to do their work. And it also acts as a bit of a a challenge to kind of, a challenge is maybe the wrong word, but I think it's a real check-in for a presenter to say, okay, where am I on this? Let me do a little bit of self-analysis on, ooh, are we just throwing plastic water bottles everywhere? Are we really only letting the top donors and artistic folks talk to the artists and the rest of the staff is hiding in a corner? You know, what are the ways in which power dynamics are playing out? And so I do think that if we really want to address, you know, in the example of your question, then I think if, you know, if I'm going to personally think about a decolonization writer or a climate writer about no plastic or I'm working or something, I also need to be thinking about the disability writer, you know, have I actually seen the way that whoever I'm working with has handled that in the past? If there need to be resources allocated to that, maybe that's a conversation that needs to happen very early on. And it's really about holding all of that rather than just what's important to you. And I know for me that's been an area of growth. But yeah, so I think in terms of hiring practices, if that becomes more standard, if we all say this is how you need to, you know, address, you know, these challenges and cancellations, if that is the new standard, then there will be not the pressure of an individual artist to say, Hi, here's what I need. Please don't screw me over. But this is the new standard. This is a standard practice of how it's right to treat people. And all of these folks have signed on to it. You know, there is power in numbers. And I'm sorely aware that, you know, the folks who are often most, you know, affected by this crisis in general, and it's not just artists, but also the amazing technicians and dramaturgs and that are working on that, that often have the onus is on just them to solve it. You know, I think it's everything from someone who had a past trauma that affected their choice of housing and whether they were going to disclose that and explain why they needed to be put in a different bit of housing or not. It's like, there's this loss of, we need to be looking out for all of us and really put that on our hat. But to pivot for a second, I also just wanted in looking at the larger alternatives to cancellation section, I want to really hold the vulnerability and the incredible generosity of everyone who contributed to that section of the document. I mean, just reading it and how I, what I felt, I can only imagine the challenge of pulling that together and of the individual artists that were affected. And I was really, really excited to see not only the capture of what this current moment has been for these artists and saying you don't look away, this is what it is, but also this pivot towards there's always a choice. There's always possibility and there's so many great ideas happening right now. It's not just about, you know, the folks who made terrible decisions and we're all here to villainize them. This is really about how can we really say, wow, Abrans had a great way of doing this. Wow. This Indigenous artist kind of approached this in such a way that it's positive. And I think that for me that's, that is so much of it. In terms of like going back to the fact that the crisis kind of reveals a lot, I think it's made, the fear has made us pick all of our, a lot of organizations say I'm scared about my resources and what I can do with them. So I'm going to close up forgetting the humanity of who was on the other end. You know, if you, what I'm so, and I think this goes back to a point that I think like Joseph was making previously, often I don't think artists are given a chance to weigh in on their own destiny. So whether it's cancellation, whether it's a grant where the grant writing was done before a major event or something changed and they're not able to update their application, you know, whatever it is, there's this sense of we need that communication. And I've, I've felt very blessed actually in the past couple of months that in my kind of independent producer slash agent hat, I feel like there's been a lot of expression of what would be the best, you know, what is, what would be best for your artists right now? And I said, great, okay, we're going to have a phone call with them in two days for now. That there's, there's been a real sense of, okay, let's dream this, this up together. But I think that I really appreciated the sense of challenge provided by this section. And I really hope that more programmers and more people who are employing artists take a look at it and really kind of let their own experience kind of sift through it and check yourself for where you're sitting. Because, you know, I'll, I'll say to, you know, for myself, I'm, I was reading it and going, you know what, I really should just like give a check-in phone call to everyone that was on my team for that project that didn't go through. I haven't talked to them since I called them to cancel it. I should see how they are, you know, and it's, it's that, it's that, it's, that is so powerful, not what I'm going to do. I mean, like that, that active engagement is, is huge. Yeah. And the last thing that I'll just say is I think community accountability is something that I really hope becomes in the vernacular and actually real as much as Edie and I, because this sense that you are somehow as an institution responsible to your staff, or if you're an employee at an institution that you're just responsible to get your paycheck and go home, we all have more responsibility and accountability to that, to the planet, to each other. And whatever we can do to bring the folks that not normally come to these conversations and embrace them and put pressure points on their practices and and have those conversations. I think that's going to be really important. Ronnie, thank you so much. I mean, you said a lot that I think we're all absorbing the last very fast. Thank you. Yeah, I think we're doing well. The last question for this section of the evening and remember folks, this is a taste. And the document, there's a lot there, there's a lot there, and we really want to just sort of open it up with this. So I'm going to ground this last question, which is to Hollis in a little bit of an excerpt from the part of the document that's about contracts and force majeure. And I just want to say it plain, some people are not working with big institutions with that have legalese contracts and they don't even know what force majeure is. So Hollis is going to hit us to that, no worries. But there's a whole section on contracts and force majeure because it's a big deal in our field. So I'm on page 119 of the document. And Amy Smith, who's a co-director and co-founder of Headlong Theater and also an artist's financial whiz, is one of the writers of the document. And she wrote, funding and equities persist and have actually gotten worse since the 2015 call from grant makers in the arts to improve racial equity and funding. I have a lot to say about that. I'll just pause on it. And Amy Smith continues, the arts ecosystem was created by and for upper middle class educated white people. And currently, many of the decision makers and full-time workers in the arts ecosystems are folks like me from their background, from that background. So that was Amy saying that. So I wondered, Hollis, first of all, will you explain force majeure for anyone who doesn't know what that term refers to? And I'm curious, because you are such a deep reader of this document, you've got your own lived experience. Why do you think Amy brought up race and class on her section around force majeure? I'm curious how have you seen race and class play out in the application of force majeure during this pandemic, but also in your years of experience in the field? Because Amy seems to be saying there's not an equal application of that cause. Thank you, Maria. Sure, force majeure in a business contract is a clause that exists to release one or both of the parties from any responsibility in the event that circumstances beyond anyone's control intervene to prevent the fulfillment causes, which are often cited as examples within that clause include traveling, shipping disruptions, strikes, war, or even the threat of war or armed conflict, illness or the death of a company member, and yes, epidemics and pandemics are a part of force majeure. And they also include acts of God, which is a legal term and embraces every conceivable kind of natural disaster, hurricanes, floods, fires, volcanic eruptions, a swarm of locusts, and so on. And Laura Colby goes through in detail the enactment of force majeure clauses and the diverse ways in how and by whom those clauses can be invoked. And I will just say on a side note in this section, which is incredibly valuable. Laura also details many other aspects of contracts and how and the imbalance in those and she covers things like regular cancellations, insurance, the risks of our business, and many, many, many other aspects. So I hope everyone gets a chance to read that. And really importantly, she gives many, many examples of how this has been enacted. Of course, the enactment or the invocation of force majeure is what brings us in many ways to where we are today and this discussion of all of the aspects of our field that are imbalanced. So lawyers like to tell us and we like to tell ourselves, artists, agents, and presenters that force majeure protects everyone. Well, no, it doesn't. It doesn't protect anyone from the loss of income or revenue. And Laura summarizes what her entertainment lawyer told her when she was crafting her contracts, force majeure sucks, everyone loses. But the truth is that everyone loses unequally. And I think this is why Amy brought it up in her section, because those artists who are the most vulnerable are the ones that have the thinnest margins in their business models. And let's face it, those artists are a marginalized group. They are people of color. They are women. They are members of the LGBTQ community. They have the most to lose. Larger organizations and agencies have more of a structure, a foundational structure around them to be able to sustain the kinds of losses that everyone incurs. Some artists may never experience a force majeure in their careers. And Amy acknowledges this, but most agents and presenters do at some point. And now all of us have. Everyone in the field has. Yeah. And it's not a force majeure as Laura points out. It's not a hurricane that will take us two weeks to get back on our feet and resume our performances. This is a force majeure that right now does not have an end in sight. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm sorry. Go ahead, Maria. It's simply lag. I want to let you finish your statement. Okay. So I also want to point out what is really, really valuable, I think in this section is that Laura points out how inadequate contracts are in many ways because even within the force majeure, there are no resolutions that provide for the loss of out of pocket expenses or advances, the loss of revenue. They don't provide for the guarantee to reschedule. And you know, as Shane alluded to earlier, many presenters are part of a larger structure. They're part of the municipality or a college or university. And those larger structures do not give the presenter the leeway to manage their own contracts. And I think that that, like I said before when I chimed in, I reject that. And I think that's a big part of our field that has to be completely renegotiated. And then finally, let me just say that what I also found very valuable is that Laura suggests some ways that we can move forward and we can change these patterns. I have thought of some myself. I think that this is just the beginning of the discussion. And it's going to be a very, very important discussion for our entire field as we move forward. We certainly don't have enough time for that tonight. But I'm glad that you read the quote that you did, Maria, because the analogy that I have been seeing is how much our field is an ecosystem. And the field of creating, producing, presenting, and attending the performing arts is composed of different elements. And in any ecosystem, every element has three functions. It brings resources to the ecosystem, it draws on resources within the ecosystem, and it exists in and of itself. So this has been an amazing start by artists, agents, and presenters, this discussion. But there are two big elements that I think should be brought in on the next phase, and I'm sure they will. And those are the funders and foundations that are very key to this ecosystem and the audience that is a critical part of the ecosystem as well. Ashay, I want to say that we are in the spirit of continuation. Thank you, Shane. Thank you, Joseph. Thank you, Miguel. Thank you, Millicent. Thank you, Hollis. Thank you, Ronnie, for making a little bit of your interior landscape explicit for the rest of us to sort of contend with and be catalyzed by. And there's more contending with and catalyzing to be done. And as has been really emphasized again and again all night, it's not just by the phase one working group, it's not just by these readers, it's by all of us. The people making all different kinds of work, the people funding it, the audience members, as you just mentioned, Hollis, the programmers, all of us. So what we're going to do now is sort of a taster. It's not going to be extensive, although I'll give you a spoiler alert. We're hoping you host after parties after this event. And we're hosting one as well. More info on that to come. But this is going to be a taste where what we're going to do, and we won't do it quite yet, behind the scenes wizards, but we're going to open up the webinar so that as many attendees can be seen and heard as possible. There's a function. If you look at the bottom of your screen on your device, there should be a function under the participants tab that allows you to raise your hand. It's a virtual hand that allows you to raise or signal really. And it says raise hand. What we're going to do is open it. I'd like to open it for at least 15 minutes, 20 if we can squeeze it. So that folks who are listening in and have been really firing up the comments in a way that is exactly what we want can make comments to the entire community. Because remember, there are hundreds of people tuning in right now and it's being recorded and transcribed. So it's not necessarily comments directed at the readers or comments directed at the writers of the document. They sort of said their piece and are now opening it up to the rest of you and the rest of us. So questions, comments, and these are really questions and comments to each other or statements, calls to action. Who do you want to organize with? What are you interested in around this? Please do. Let's switch so that we get as many participants seen as possible now. Let's do that now. And then raise your hand and I will call on as many people as we can just to get some more voices in the mix. And so you all can hear from each other. Let's do that now. So we'll get as many people transitioned into the technological term of panelists as possible so that we can see your face and hear your voice. And raise your hand if you'd like to share something with the rest of the community, please. And I mean the digital hand. So now the readers will not be on the screen and the other folks will become panelists. Yay. I see Tariq. Hey, Tariq. You've been listening in. We'll start to see more of our community that's been listening in as well. Oh, this is awesome. And I'm going to start to look to see who's got their hands raised. I'm looking in the chat function for give the technological delay. But now we can start to see kind of a little bit of who's here. So it looks like please forgive me if I mispronounce your name. I'm reading it here. But I see some people with raised hands. Jillian Harris. Jillian Harris, Jillian Harris. Will you please take the floor and briefly share what you would like to share with the community? Jillian Harris. And so I'm just curious to know what the panelists think that colleges and universities can do to preserve a diverse ecosystem in light of the circumstances. I know that was mentioned that college. I'm having a hard time seeing the raised hands so if tech wizards you can help me. I thought I saw Jillian Harris, but perhaps not. Yeah. Hi. Maria, Jillian has been speaking. Hello. Can you hear her? I cannot, but thank you. The important part is you can. So I'll be quiet. Thank you for that, Miguel. I'm glad someone can hear me. That's fine. So, yeah, so I'm just interested in the panelists' thoughts on what colleges and universities can do in the circumstance. I know it was mentioned, for example, that colleges were not able to offer a deposit and that policy. But what are some other constructive actions that you feel that those of us at colleges and universities could promote in this situation to assist? So there's a technical issue on my end. I don't hear anybody anymore. So has Jillian finished speaking? Yes. I'm going to stop there. Isis has a hand raised. Isis will be next. Yes. She asked it. Miguel, you got it. Go for it. Jillian asked a question. Oh, I don't have an answer. I don't know shit about universities and their presenting things. But I just wanted to acknowledge Jillian's question. If anyone else on the panel can speak to it. I mean, I'm happy to jump in. Or even anybody else who is now a panelist, not just the readers, anybody. We've got such a rich community. Thank you, Miguel. For me, it's not even our institution. It's North Carolina state law that does not allow deposits. So actually, the legislature would have to change that law. And that's why I've gone to finding creative ways to get around that. There's always ways around red tape. So what are those ways? And so in terms of buyouts and breaking projects up, that's how we're able to find our way around that. Yeah, I work at a university. This is Millicent talking. Can we go to Isis after this Isis? Millicent, you can go ahead and I'll speak to you. No, it's okay. No, it's interesting because when Hollis brought up the first time, you know, I was thinking, same thing that Shane has just said that the legislature has to get involved if we want like serious systemic changes to happen so that we can support the artists. Right now, I'm at Florida State University. I'm in film school. But because I'm a producing specialist, I work a lot with SAG after contracts. And so it's the same thing, like I'm constantly trying to figure out creative ways to support the artists that come in within this really funky system that really doesn't acknowledge difference. So I'll give an example. We had some artists from Trinidad and Tobago that came in. And there were just so many assumptions around how we present those artists and how we take care of them while they were with us for the duration of the filmmaking process. And, you know, we were trying our best, you know, giving them gift cards instead of in the amount of what they would have received in per diem because we couldn't pay them per diem because of the system that we were working in Florida. Trying to find ways to pull resources as far as housing and making, you know, it's really a nightmare. But I want to offer that I think not just the folks that are working as administrators in these universities to engage in these conversations, but the students and the dance educators that are also in those systems, they too are part of the ecosystem. They too have not had a voice in this larger conversation. And, you know, I think what we can rely on with some of those folks is that they have institutional history, right? So some of them have been at these institutions for 35, 40 years. And so they've seen how it's shifted and changed. So they have language and access to resources in ways that some of us who are fairly new, so to speak, to the system who have less experience with that. So I do think there's got to be this kind of collection of information, not just with the presenters that are in association with these larger institutions, but the folks, the organizers and the administrators that have been there that can bring that type of institutional history and experience to that larger conversation. Yeah. Thank you so much, Millie. And by the way, you all forgive my talking over. I was lost somehow in the land of tech, but I'm back now. So did ISIS get a chance to address the community? We'll go ISIS and then Yantande. ISIS and then Yantande. Hi, everyone. My name is Isis Avalos. I am, yes, no, it's fine. I pronounce it in Spanish. I am a dance artist. And my, it's a comment, but also an observation. Am I, am I being hard? Sorry. Okay. To what Millicent had shared, and I really just want to thank her for her comments about just, you know, how we can move forward and create a more egalitarian environment. And when she brought up the process of check-ins, I was, you know, taken back to realizing that as far as my experience, having been in a company and who that is also a non-profit, check-ins actually did not work. Or if anything created an environment in which it became more than just creating more of an egalitarian, everyone's heard if at the end of the day, those in leadership positions in the company are not actually putting into action what is being shared in these check-ins. And so there comes this power dynamic that happens with dancers and those in leadership positions, be it artistic director, executive director, whatever that may mean. And so inevitably, you know, this check-in environment makes you feel like, you know, your voice is being heard and in turn kind of creates this familial like we are family, we're being heard. And then nothing happens. And so then you, you're there for years, just not trying to lose your job, trying to get through the person who's, you know, leading the company and only to result in this kind of either the dancer gives up or leaves or gets fired. And then you bring in new dancers. And so what happens is those dancers have shared their narratives, you know, and created council circle story sharing, again, an egalitarian circle shape and check-in circle shape, but ultimately doesn't result in anything. And I don't think it's, it can come across as a mental emotional manipulation when you're on the receiving end as a dancer. And I don't think it's intentionally made as that. It's just that if a company, a nonprofit is still running under a capitalist system, which is, you know, the sad truth is that we're running in that way. And that's why we're here. But want to internally with the dancers work in an egalitarian system environment, then there's that gap in which it creates sort of a disconnect. And I'm just speaking on a more mental, emotional, and psychological health approach to dancers in the industry, because then you just feel silenced. So that's kind of how it happens. And also those in more of a bigger power dynamic can just move forward and what happens to those dancers in the end, you know. So I think starting guests from how can we, how can we still be honest and transparent in trying to work, not in a capitalistic way, but also being careful in how we open up spaces to, you know, for dance artists to open up. Thank you. So that'll be something when we organize together, which we are y'all, we're organizing, by the way, you got to get at ECs because ECs has things to say about how we can make our particular artistic processes not be manipulative in the way that we've been manipulated by these systems. We want to also hear from Yontande and see if we could get maybe even one more person in this taster-teaser portion. Hello. Hello. Well, it's since your message that I was going to pass on my comment, but it's so, well, I'm still processing, but since I have the mic, I will say just a general and specific thank you for this opportunity. Thank you for the work that we have bravely taken on, that you have bravely taken on, and now I have included myself in this. And I think that this is a wonderful opportunity to do exactly what is the proposition here, which is to rethink, restructure, just re-re around the practices that we've been holding as our processes for so long. And here is a wonderful opportunity to get in the front of it and to be able to speak very frankly and very directly about issues that are in the field that have been inequities for a very long time. So that's what I have to say for now. I will, I'm certainly looking forward to digging more into the document and adding more comments and sweat to this process. So thank you, everybody. Thank you for the sweat. Thank you for the sweat. I think we saw Tariq's digital hand raised as well. Is that right? Yeah. Hi, everyone. Hi, Maria. How are you doing? I wanted to speak to the version of the document that's talking about kind of this top up experience. And I'm very interested in how we take that same document and entering into academic institutions or training facilities and kind of make the indoctrination of not being responsible in terms of their advocacy. So if we're not working on the next generation of artists and people coming in, how do we facilitate this type of practice or modality in training the next group of people to come in? So that becomes kind of a gentle army that works with the changes that we're trying to bring forth. So it's not just from established, but people who are trying to establish at the same time. I hope that made sense. Yeah, makes so much sense. So, y'all, those of you working with students and universities, get at Gillian, and also how can we do this on a grassroots level is what I'm hearing. I think I'm going to read a few people have typed in their questions. There's another function that's not the digital hand function. So I just want to see if we can get as many voices in the mix as possible. Okay, here it is. This is from... Oh, I'm scrolling furiously. My poor little computer is doing her best. This is from Sarah. Sarah Lyons. And I hope I'm pronouncing your name correctly. Sada. In what ways are institutions and funding structures responsible for the competitiveness of our field? Sarah Lyons says, I am very aware of how hard it is to achieve access to the institutional tier being discussed here that can translate to earning a living wage or any wage as an artist. Miguel said it took 27 years and that's probably better than it goes for most people. How can we think of all artists in and out of institutions as part of one economy? What do we learn when we do that? Sarah Lyons says, when I do this myself, the system looks even more broken. What can be done to address access and extend support and solidarity to artists beyond institutions? So if you want to talk beyond institutions, please get at Sarah Lyons. Thank you for that. Thank you so much. I think we've got time in this taster teaser portion for one more comment from the community. So I'm looking for these raised hands, the digitally raised hands. But you know what? I also read body language. So if you just go like that, then we can also unmute you also. Let's see if anybody's waving, waving. Oh, David. Hey, David. David White, come through, please. You've got a lot of experience. Yeah, that's to say that I'm the oldest person in this grid. But it strikes me that actually everything that's going on... Oh, sorry. Got it. So we'll go David and then Sydney and then back to me for a what's next. David, Sydney, then back to me. Thank you. People primarily know me as a presenter and a supporter of artists, commissioner, etc., in a small institution. I want to say because I am so old that I've lived through a number of cycles that have made it to this point. In other words, I was the editor of the Poor Dancers Almanac. I was involved with instigating the Dancers Compact, which came out of Dance Theatre Workshop under the direction of David Thompson and Peggy Peliquin. And also as a founder of the National Performance Network, there became a moment in the years of that, which had been a lot of years now, where artists stood up and said, this is these relationships as defined by contracts and fees and whatever. It was an unfair imbalance. So what I want to remind people is that this is a discussion, and obviously there are nuances now that weren't automatically brought to the fore back then, but that this has basically been a discussion that has been going on for a very long time. And it has something fundamental to do not necessarily with the presenter versus the artist versus the audience, but it has something to do with how we conceive of ourselves as an ecology, that was a word used earlier, and whether or not we can all figure out ways to support that. And as Maria, as you keep referring, this is a delicate dance, right? I mean, because we're on all sorts of different situations. I'm in a rural island community, which has no major funders. So it's very different. I mean, it's going to be different from place to place and how we cobble together the resources to serve artists. And I think even with my own staff, some of which are on this call, we've been working really hard to figure out what are better ways to do this. In other words, we've had to lay off a number of artists this summer. But we are also moving our relationships forward with those artists by bringing them into an online platform and guaranteeing to them a future commitment. And so I just wanted to bring up that this is really a long standing issue that is not easily solved, obviously. And I really appreciate the work that Janira and others have put into this and into this time. And all of those, including my good friend Shane, have put into this effort. So I'm in it for the duration. Thank you, David. Thank you. This is a teaser portion, and I'll tell you about the next portion after, but it feels just nice and fitting. Sydney Moseley, will you please bring home the teaser portion? That feels like a lot of pressure. But hey, Maria. I guess I just had a question slash wanted to lift up something you stated in the very beginning, Maria, of this whole call, which was about how we as artists are lighting ourselves with larger labor movements. And I don't know what that looks like. And I admittedly have not yet had a chance to dive into the document. But I do just feel our other people hearing, Sydney. Yes. I do feel super strongly about the ways that we are aligning ourselves with the mess, what just labor movement across the United States. And I'm just trying to think through the ways that we can continue to pull ourselves from the elitism that is so embedded in this hierarchy that we keep talking about, this ecology ecosystem that we keep talking about. So I just wanted to raise that question again. And I don't know exactly how we will go into phase two, but that feels, for me, super important to be top of mind as we go into the next phase of the war. Okay. Thank you so much, Sydney. Thank you so much, Sydney. So you all, many of you know, you know, David, you said it, this conversation has been going on for a long time. I come from the People's Institute for Survival and Beyond. That's an anti-racist organizing entity. And in the People's Institute, we say anything that's been done can be undone, right? And that we have to come to this work with a lot of hope, not with a defeatist mentality. So anything that's been done can be undone. And of course, who are the people to do it? Us, all of us. And we didn't just start. That's certainly the case. So the invitation now is that anybody who's interested in continuing a conversation with a group of people, with anybody you're interested in, use the chat function now and please put your name and your contact info. This is really the time where we can organize with one another. So for instance, you could say, hey, I'm Maria. My phone number is 917-971-8038. Put it in the chat and say, I'm particularly interested in organizing with Black artists and talking about shame around fundraising and institutional support and ways to use a kitty-susu model instead. For instance, does that make sense, Yol? So use the chat, please, and write those names and numbers down into your devices now, right? As has been said so many times in so many different ways, it's up to us. And the genius is in the group. Joel Azaler often says that the genius is in the group. So please use the chat function now. It'll be open for another like three minutes for you to write down names, numbers, stuff you're interested in, email addresses, so that you and we can keep talking because this really was just a teaser and a taster. I'm going to check the chat and see how we're doing. Yep, I see some names and contact info going into the chat. Great. So keep those coming, y'all, and write them down now. This isn't one of those cases. This is just grassroot style, what my grandma would call a phone tree, right? So it's not that we're going to notate them and send them back to you just now. Grab your device. I so appreciated John Tande talking about, I'll add my sweat. Great. And as you're continuing to write, you might want to just put a little note about what particular aspect of this that you want to keep talking about. That way people know what to reach out to you about. Yeah, that's it, Meredith. Thanks for saying that. It was really concise and clear. So as that continues to happen, y'all, we want to say thanks again to everybody for tuning in and obviously we're on the downward slope. To continue this organizing, to continue this discussion that's been begun by so many people before us, we're hoping that you'll host an after party. We're hoping that you'll get on the phone and talk with people. We're hoping that you will text a few people and say, yo, I'm tired tonight, but can we talk on Monday because our contracts are whack and I didn't know how we could fix them, but now I do. Or whatever, you know, I think that I want to be part of phase two. We need to talk or yo, me and my people were sorely left out of this document and this discussion, so we need to talk. All of those, we really, really hope that you do it. And I got a shout out Millicent Johnny because Millie suggested that we, the participants of Real Talk tonight, host our own after party. So we are Millie's hosting and I'm co-hosting and it really is a mingling time. It's where we're going to be kind of quiet and just put you in breakout rooms if you want to chat with each other. You'll just talk, grab your cocktail if you want, think about it as the lobby after the show, right? So we've got a link. I believe it could be added to the comments now. So Demetrius and Catherine and Charles, could you all add the link to the after party now? Our after party, but also text each other about your own after party. Okay. I'll just wait till I see that link pinned to the after party. It's there. I don't see it, but I'll trust that it's there. Can people wave? Do you see a link for the after party, a Zoom link for the after party? Awesome. Great. So that's going to start in 10 minutes, right? We'll just take a second to use the bathroom, refresh our drinks, whatever, and really the conversation continues. Just the way we started, is it possible we could take a deep breath in and out together? Here we go, y'all. Thank you so very much to all the workers and laborers who made tonight possible, from Brandon to Maria to Charles to Catherine to Blaze to Demetrius to Brian and so many others. We also thank the members of that first working group who created this document for us to contend with. They put their sweat out there knowing that it would be imperfect and that it's such a vulnerable act. Thank you to those readers who joined us tonight, Shane and Hollis and Joseph and Millie and Miguel. And I'm leaving some. Ronnie, thank you so much for being here with us. The conversation continues. May we all wash our hands more times and for longer than we think might be necessary. May we check in on each other? Whether we have a contractual relationship or not, may we just check in? And again, please respond on the feedback form to the document. The readers, the writers have asked for our feedback. So really do take a look at the document and type away all of your feedback. Have a wonderful evening. See some of you at the after party. Good night, everybody.