 And let's get started. So good afternoon. Thank you for joining us today to discuss how advising students on their university destinations has changed as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic. We have a global audience here today from all over Europe as well as the United States, Latin America, Japan and Singapore. Our topic of discussion is to consider university destinations for programs taught in English. These may be the traditional English speaking countries also in much of Europe and indeed in many countries around the world where high school graduates can choose to stay at home if there is an English university option. I am Douglas Hayek, director of Proc College. This webinar is part of our facing change initiative. Every year the college chooses an annual theme and when we chose this one, facing change, little did we realize how much change we would be facing in the second half of this academic year. When we started organizing this webinar about a month ago, most of the world was already in lockdown, quarantine, isolation. The names varied but the effects were mostly the same. Today, much of the world is tentatively beginning to loosen these restrictions even as the virus continues to affect different countries and regions to differ in degrees. In many ways, the situation a month ago was clear. Universities and schools were closed for face-to-face teaching and everyone was at home. Going forward, we will be faced with more complicated decisions and situations. Will there be a second wave or a third? Will classes run as before or substantially differently, online or not at all? My own alma mater, McGill University in Montreal, announced yesterday that they are going to be teaching in person from September. Prague College has had the same plan since March 10th, the day universities in the Czech Republic were closed, when we decided that we will teach in September in person if we can. We will teach online if we must and we will teach a combined hybrid or high-flex model where the online students who have been delayed coming to Prague will interact with the students who are already here. I think every university is preparing multiple, even dozens of contingency plans for the next academic year. You, as study advisors, have the added complication of navigating this complex and ever-changing situation while trying to advise your students on their best and safest choices for the coming year. Today, we have brought together four panelists to help us understand the situation, as it is now, and as it may develop going forward, to represent the institutional side of the relationship with study advisors. We have George Hunt, director of international development at T-Side University, which is our long-standing academic partner, and we have Natasha Eksten, head of student recruitment and admissions at Prague College. Representing advisors, we have two panelists. Zachary Wyman is an academic counselor based in Paris, and Mark Huntington is an advisor based in the United Kingdom. I would like to start by asking Mark Huntington if you could introduce yourself a little bit. My name is Mark Huntington. I am the founder of an organization in the UK called A Star Future. Basically, we've been in existence for about 15 years now, and our main area of activity is advising British students on international higher education options. Those taught in English for obvious reasons. We have become a bit more of a specialist in European higher education. The options taught in English there. Certainly, the Dutch University explosion in interest about 10 years ago is something that we were instrumental in and very much involved in. We spend a lot of our time traveling around the UK, visiting high schools, talking with students and counselors about international higher education. Obviously, all of that has come to a crashing halt right now, but before we got into this situation, we were very much focused on, well, 2021 recruitment. Let's put it that way. 2020 was almost a done deal. The thing is that I don't think we can say that with any confidence right now. Clearly, there are a lot of issues that we're going to refer to today. Thank you. Thanks Mark. Zach, if I could ask you to introduce yourself. Yes, so my name is Zachary Wyman. I'm an American from Kansas City, Missouri originally, but I've been living here in Paris for the last 20 years. And for the last 12 years, I've had the pleasure of assisting students from quite a variety of backgrounds who are considering university options abroad, English speaking programs as well. A lot of the students going to the UK in the end, but also European universities, occasionally Africa or Asia pop up on the list. It's really more about what each person's curiosity is leading them towards and, you know, we're trying to help them meet their best needs that way. And so here, you know, I've been guiding these students, you know, in their different projects and I've been listening a lot to how they've been interacting with their schools, you know, the response that they've been receiving from the different universities. And so I'm happy to share some of that insight with you all today. Thank you, Zach. George, could I ask you to introduce yourself. My name is George, I'm an international tea site university based in Middlesbrough in the northeast of England. I'm here today to represent the university side of things. So hopefully to provide a little bit of perspective on where our thinking is at the moment. Obviously, that comes with a huge caveat in that we don't know exactly what's going to happen, even at the end of this month, never mind at the point of our next intake. But as far as we can, I'll give you an idea on what we're planning for and where the university thinks we might be. By way of background, tea side university has an international student community of about two and a half thousand international students and a significant number from the local area from the UK as well. Everything that the university experience that we offer is about is very difficult to offer in the face of social distancing. So hopefully today I'll give you a bit of an insight into our thinking at the current time and how we're looking to get around some of these challenges at the moment. Thank you, George. So, and finally, the last of our panelists, Natasha. Good afternoon, everybody. My name is Natasha Extern and I'm the head of admissions and student recruitment at Prague College. I've been working at Prague College now for about three and a half years. And today I'd really like to bring to you the perspective from a university working within Central Europe, offering British degree programs. And also we are a smaller university with around 450 students in total, but from over 90 different nationalities. So our student body is extremely diverse and very international. So we've been interacting with students during this time. We've been affected by the COVID-19 pandemic in multiple different ways. And so today I'd like to sort of bring some information to you about how we've transitioned during this time, how we're also preparing for September 2020, and also just some of our anecdotal feedback that we've been receiving from students as well. Okay, thank you, Natasha. So we have some topics which we're going to come through. And of course, if we see anything come up in the meantime through the chat, we will try to address that as well. If I could start off then just from an applicant perspective now as they are considering where to study from September. If I could ask Mark maybe to talk a little bit. Do students still want to go abroad? What are their worries? What are their options? Okay, well, I think we can break this down into two categories. I mean obviously some of this is dependent on was determined by the time of the year we're in in the recruitment cycle itself. With regards to 2020 recruitment, I would say people are still keen to go ahead obviously thinking very, very seriously about the implications of whether or not they're going to be able to follow through with that. We are occasionally getting requests about deferred entry and so on. We are also occasionally getting requests from people who've been studying abroad so far to try and transfer back into local universities. So these are things that we've found not in great numbers, I would say, but they are starting to happen. Where I would say year on year we're noticing the biggest change is the fact that 2021 recruitment right now seems to be absolutely flat, nothing going on at all. So it might very well be that when students are making their decisions for, you know, next year, that could also be a very, very unusual kind of recruitment cycle as well. Zach, in terms of should you study next year or maybe take the year off. I know we were talking earlier and you have some insights into that and also what do you think how is it with your applicants. Well, as I was saying previously, my applicants are targeting universities that are generally kind of at the higher end I would say of the admission scale in terms of difficulty in admissions. And so because the kind of brand value there is so high, a lot of them haven't necessarily, you know, said that they were considering, you know, not going. They're just concerned about exactly when and how and kind of, you know, safety issues and things will be addressing a bit later. So some insight from the field, at least in terms of the students who applied to British universities, they have basically had a kind of a, what we say in French, a silence radio. The universities are saying not much of anything. They're just kind of waiting, and the students are getting a little bit anxious about that. But, you know, encouraging from time to time as well and then for the American universities because I do have students who are going there. Some institutions have actually sent out emails directly to candidates telling them that they can take a gap here, even not having been solicited by them, you know, having expressed any sort of worries. I think that we're still kind of in that period of limbo where we don't know exactly what's going to happen but I know that all the institutions that students have targeted are hoping that the students will be going and the students have not yet. No one has said that they're going to abandon their project. Okay, thanks. Natasha and George I know that as we're recruiting into into British universities and into college, some of that recruiting cycle is still ongoing for for 2020. And maybe I'll start with George. How, how, how would you see that in terms of the international recruiting stuff for 2020? Well, I mean, if I'm talking about the UK in general, I think before COVID-19, the prospects were perhaps looking better than they had ever looked. And certainly within living memory. I think the prospects for international students from the UK and from outside of the EU were particularly good but also there was still some support for EU students in a way that perhaps there wouldn't be beyond September 2020. So the outlook for British universities has been better than it's been for a while. So what we're seeing is that there's actually a lot of interest in the pipeline already. And for a lot of universities, their number of applications was actually considerably up on the same point in the previous cycle. What we're seeing now is a little bit of what the other guys have said. Certainly we see this, this phenomenon that Doug mentioned I won't do the French version of it but universities are a little bit uncertain as to what it is that they can say because they don't want to get caught out by the world changing in the near future. A good example of this in the UK is that we've had an announcement that we're going to start bringing in a 14 day quarantine for international travellers coming into the UK. Now we don't know what that would mean for international students. Would it be that they can be quarantined in any kind of situation so they can start university but in quarantine? Is it in a separate location? And then what really is it that they can start to do after that quarantine period ends? The biggest enemy that I think we have in the sector is just that bit of uncertainty. Universities will always respond to things that they can do and very clearly we still have all over the world a lot of interest from students incoming to UK universities, the prospects for those students after graduation have better than they've been for a long time. So that good work that's been done so far still exists. But I think that we're seeing students starting to play the waiting game a little bit as well. One thing I'd probably get in trouble for saying but to some extent it's a bit of a buyer's market from the student's point of view. Because any students that do choose to study overseas or indeed study in the UK for example will be hot property for universities when they're uncertain about what that picture is going to look like. And generally speaking from the research that we've done so far, we're seeing a few students saying that they would wait back but not in the numbers that we thought. Actually a lot of students still want to come at this point and they're just looking for a bit more certainty as to what that will look like from the university and the UK immigration side. Okay, thanks. Well Natasha, I mean time is the ticking clock here because September will ultimately come right and then there are other pressures around that. How do you see that both, you know, at pro college with your applicants and in general. I think our experience has been quite similar to that actually that the others have said in that students are still looking to study abroad. They do have questions about their arrival, which is completely understandable at this time. And I'd really echo the point that George said actually, and that they're really looking for some reassurance. So we've also not seen a particular change of stance if they wanted to study with us and we're part of the admission process. We haven't seen students who had confirmed for September saying that they want to make that change right now. But of course, I think we all have to bear in mind that there's also indirect impacts of the pandemic so not just students aren't just having to consider, you know, can they want to go abroad but there might be very practical implications that the pandemic has had perhaps on their family and education, for example, that they are now having to take into consideration that perhaps wouldn't have been at the forefront of their mind previously. So I think definitely the want to go abroad is still there. I think students are still expressing that interest and speaking with universities which is great obviously from our point of view and we can offer the reassurance that we can. I mean, in terms of their decision making and there may be other factors that they really do have to consider that out of not only the university's control, but also perhaps also study advisors because their personal situations have also been impacted and that's something that we're seeing our applicants and communicate with us I would say more and more and obviously we're trying to be flexible with them in regards to sort of admission deadlines where it's viable and as George said particularly we're waiting for international applicants to see what that visa situation might look like as well which I know is a topic we'll come on to slightly later. Okay, thank you. Thank you everybody. Moving to the next topic, how will university itself be changing in the coming year in the midst of COVID-19 or perhaps after COVID-19, after the spring or the current disruptions, what's in store for teaching and learning? Is it going to be different again? Generally, how do you see that in Europe, in the UK, in the US? Well, I suppose from that point of view, how university will change, I mean a lot of it is well clearly connected with the academic experiences. Is it going to be online? Is it going to be in person and so on. From our experience so far of talking predominantly with European universities, we have found many are now switching to the approach that you alluded to in your discussion Doug, which is online if we must, in person if we possibly can and a mixture in all circumstances. So I think many people are now expecting, yes, assuming we don't have a massive second wave or something like that, we'll get to a situation where students will be present but perhaps not as much physically present actually on the campus as they would ordinarily be. I think, yeah, certainly I'd say Dutch universities, one or two of them have also announced this kind of system of, well, you don't absolutely have to come if you're frightened or you don't want to or you physically can't because of circumstances in your home country. So there won't be any kind of penalty against people who don't for whatever reason feel able to attend in person. I can't see, yeah, I think that's just going to be something I think most universities are going to have to just play by ear or play by ear as such but you know, respond to as of when the circumstances demand. Beyond that from an applicant perspective, and how that will change. We have a zoom chat session for a load of students all supposedly going to Madrid this, this September, and it will be this September either online or physically. And we're talking to students from, you know, Hong Kong, Toronto, Thames Valley, same kind of issues came up as due every year. They want to talk more about how they're going to make friends, what kind of social clubs are there. You know, accommodation. These are still the primary issues they're talking about, whether that's a little bit of denial and whether that's like these are concrete issues that they can actually address. I don't know, but in terms of the apps, thinking too much about what the absolute university environment is going to be like. I don't think it's something that's necessarily impacted on students behavior too much just now, they'll have to wait and see what it actually is before they'll give you their comments on that. I think, yeah, I think a lot of it is wait and see, isn't it? I mean, it's one thing to be forced into an emergency lockdown. And so there's a certain amount of understanding out there about what happens, but it's different than we plan for the future. I don't know, Natasha and George, from a university perspective. I think that under normal circumstances, you would perhaps say that if students were looking for an entirely online experience, then they wouldn't necessarily have come up on our radar. Online experiences are out there. Online degrees are out there for people who are working or have other commitments. If they're applying to a UK university, in our case, then they're actually interested in all those other aspects, all of the wider experience of university. And, you know, for perspective, we're in the middle of a 300 million pound build on our campus, which is university facilities, accommodation, student life buildings recently being completed. One of those things, if we believe that our university experience could be replicated as an online model. So under normal circumstances, we're committed and if absolutely possible, we'll be delivering face to face where we can. The uncertainty comes from the fact that we don't know when that will be. And in lots of cases, there are students who are considering a blended option in some form, really in the absence of anything else. I mean, if you look across the continent or indeed across the world at the current restrictions that are in place because of COVID-19. In a normal year, you might get people wanting to defer and saying, well, I'll take a gap year, I'll go traveling, I'll work for a period of time. None of those options are on the table. So if the only other option is really to start a degree program and start it online at home, then actually it's quite an attractive option in the current context. With that said, the moment that students are able to get out, move around the country, are able to be in classrooms with other students and start to get some of that university experience that we're talking about in, you know, back in their lives. I think that that'll be something that they'll really go for. And we recognize that as well. The demand for online is really just to make it practical for students and absolutely because we have to, there'll be a blend of the online delivery or what we can do in person. But I think that the demand we've seen for students and certainly our student body is to be in the UK physically being taught and physically attending university. We'll do what we can to bridge the time in between that being a possibility and being a reality. But longer term, absolutely, we want to do that in person. Okay, thanks. A good point about the gap here. I mean, if the health situation does stay as difficult as it is, the question arises, what would you do in a gap here? And in fact, one of these blended or distance learning options might be better. But Natasha, I mean, part of the university experience is also more than just the classroom. And I wonder if maybe around how universities might change during the pandemic, during the lockdown. I think we use sort of an online version of teaching in the future. How universities might address that. Absolutely. Yeah, I think it's, I think we have to expect that universities will incorporate digital online learning in some capacity because as George said, we're going to be in a position whereby we potentially have a time gap to bridge until some students can actually join with face to face. But I think this has maybe also been an opportunity to see where digital can really foster a sense of community. And we're very fortunate, as I mentioned that we are a small university, but we've actually found that through the feedback that we've conducted with our students that they've actually had on the whole very positive experience being taught with what we're calling the digital campus. And they do have this sense of community. And in fact, one of our students, creative media production student, he's been involved with live streaming some events. So we hosted a live party which was streamed internationally. And he's actually said that he's developed skills which he wouldn't have anticipated prior to this situation and it's really something he plans on going to pursue into his, in the final year of his studies and projects. So, and we've definitely seen examples where we've been surprised by let's say that the response but also what can be achieved through that campus, through the digital campus but I think the fact that a sense of community still needs to be there that we can sort of make contingency plans and have a sort of a hybrid model where it's possible until face to face teaching regimes, as I do echo those sentiments that that is ultimately in most high school leavers who are planning to embark on a three or four year degree program are looking for. But I think universities have to be able to respond. You know, they have to be agile, they have to adapt to how, have to think creatively about how perhaps less traditional academic programs can be delivered. And, and I actually think that the online aspect in terms of university education as a sector will actually remain so we perhaps Mark and Zach may agree with this. And we hosted a virtual open day and the uptake was was really big. And it was something that we've been thinking about anyway for our international audience, but I think digital outreach and changing actually how universities interact with schools and colleges and also how we deliver our advice and guidance. This really gives an opportunity to see how we can reach more students and you know increased participation in certain ways and make sure that they really understand their offer in a more in a different presentation that perhaps traditionally they can't get because you know it's not all students can you know they make the decision to travel abroad for that for their studies but they can't always actually get there beforehand pandemic or no pandemic. So I think actually the digital aspect could well be incorporated into not just teaching and learning but other aspects of sort of university education in the sector generally. I think it is definitely something that's changing I mean in terms of somebody just said, or you said it about about the students who developed skills that he never thought that he would ever learn I think all of us can feel the same thing right now for our experience in the last couple of I'm going to cut there's a question coming through on the chat in terms of is there any consideration to start courses in January rather than September. And that the fear is out there that universities won't allow a deferral you mentioned that some of your universities indeed did already reach out to students and say that they don't have to come next year. Well, what I've been hearing from diverse institutions is that basically everyone really wants things to go in September, one way or another. Many institutions are talking about, you know the possibility of what would have been an equivalent of a trimester that might potentially be remote. I'm not imagining the whole full semester would be necessary. And so they're trying to get students to come with that, you know saying it's not going to be very long don't worry you know we're going to do our best to mitigate the situation. And students are just saying that that's not the traditional university experience that they don't really want to start that way. And that's where there really is kind of getting this little situation where universities are kind of stuck in students feel also that they, you know, somehow or not going to have that experience that they've been looking for. And so I guess what's interesting here is that it is an opportunity like Natasha was saying for universities to innovate just like for people to learn how to learn in different ways. And it's going to be the type of students who's going to decide whether or not he or she wants to try to, you know, ask for deferral but universities haven't officially refused anyone yet. There's still a little bit on the on the extended deadlines no saying like, okay, you have to let us know by June 1. If you want to defer and then afterwards they've been a bit foggy about whether or not they be held to that. So I think we still have a bit of time to figure that out but I'm just wanting to always remain confident that universities their main mission is to educate, you know, not to make students have a terrible experience, no one wants that. And I think that when we're talking to students we just have to remind them that, you know, that it just may be different but not bad for a lot of classes of course we're going to we're going to get by with some kind of digital or online or shorting semester. But just one further aspect to this question here on the chat, what about things like performing arts courses or or visual arts or lab based science courses and so on. Well, I've had actually a couple of cases like that where basically through different interfaces they are finding ways to kind of. I think I don't know if it was on tick talk or something like this, where each person was you know kind of doing their own thing and they had gotten you know an assignment and together they were you know having kind of this drama class. It was interesting. They did say well it's not really like what we're used to but it's kind of fun, because it's a novelty. Science students however completely stopped. You know they've been getting you know documents and things to kind of learn that they obviously are unable to do experiments you know in the comfort of their own home for the moment so that's going to be a real challenge I think. That was a challenge so George and Natasha and Mark what you're hearing from the university, George maybe around this. Is there any thought maybe to some programs starting immediately and some maybe delayed or differently done or anything like that in terms of the lab based and practice based. Much the same to be honest, I mean we have some programs that either have an online version at the university, which are ready to go, or are better suited to online delivery in various ways, and some where it just literally is not possible. I mean T side is an industrial and focused university we are in the middle of the chemical industry for the UK. So we have a lot of programs that are lab based also which is an important thing to mention in the current crisis we deliver a lot of health programs so nursing being one of the larger ones. Students are not only in lectures, they're not only in very large and you know towards the larger end of seminar classroom groups and lab based groups but they're also on placement. So delivering those kind of programs in any meaningful way online just simply isn't going to be possible. It's really looking at what we can plug in in terms of the teaching at this point and whether people can start some of their program as an online version with a view to them coming onto the program later on. As I said before I think we'd rather avoid this with our students at the moment and I think some universities are, I mean, well every university is moving to a form of online delivery. What I think students and councillors need to be aware of is the extent to which universities are presenting this as being a specialism and something that they're able to do really well and actually a stock gap to allow them to get them to a predetermined point in the future where they're delivering a bit more on their own. In terms of modules in a way that they were designed to be delivered and I think that's the challenge that we have at the moment. Also, I mean we see this a bit with any type of online program and Zach alluded to this a little bit as well. As well, you know, you see students who are perhaps motivated initially by some innovative ways of working and some of that will be sustained with other types of learning. It just simply isn't the same and students get bored on programs when they don't have the interaction. So the really successful programs and really innovative ones will be ones that still harness that face to face element. But ultimately I think as Natasha said there'll be elements of the online delivery that I think carry on into the future. But really, if you were going to do that successfully you'd want to be designing those as part of the program in a truly blended way rather than attaching it to a pre-existing program. Simply do the emergency that we're facing. Thanks George. We are also in the chat there's something similar. We have a question about how there's challenges in the online delivery of English language programs and so on. And I think I think George you've addressed that it really is different depending on the subject area. Before we go on Mark or Natasha, is there anything you'd like to add? A couple of things I would like to just add. We don't have so much experience with the performing arts or the graphic arts and things like that. But we do have a lot of experience in science, particularly with medical and dental schools. The biggest issues they're encountering right now are with those students who are in the clinical phase of their degree. I mean not final year students who've clearly obviously in most places actually graduated early, but those in say the third and fourth at the beginning of their clinical rotations. Those are being cut back, meaning that there's going to be a bit of a lag when they come back to a normal academic year. And they are to a certain extent going to need to prioritize those students over first years who could maybe take some kind of physiology anatomy classes online. So even if the university is fully back and they'll probably be giving preferential treatment to those further up because they simply have to do that. Another point on delayed starts to the academic year. I was speaking with one university yesterday about January starts and they were actually saying that they will. Well, the current thinking let's put it this way is that they will allow it if anybody is quite simply unable to get there for September or is afraid of getting there for September. They are not going to penalize those students deferring a whole year is another matter for now but that's under discussion. But there will obviously be a change in the modules that they can actually take within that semester that could have consequences that over time will, you know, will be fine. But it might not be a neat start but pretty much every university I'm talking up to when they're talking about delaying the actual start of courses. It tends to be by a couple of weeks into late September early October, and it tends to be in those countries where the school leaving certificate has not been cancelled yet but is still in a kind of delay pattern. I've seen this in Spain, I've seen it in Ireland as well. And that seems to be the more immediate pressure on start dates for semesters right now than perhaps, you know, what's coming next with the second wave or whatever. That's a great segue actually and also I'm conscious of time. And so Natasha, maybe I'll bring that to you. Things like travel difficulties for students getting to, in your case to Prague, in our case to Prague or anywhere. Issues with accommodation if you're going to be coming late issues with safety around communal spaces and large groups and so on. Generally the fears and anxieties that the COVID-19 virus and pandemic has created. It's a lot for any of us to consider, let alone sort of those at the age of, you know, 18 who are now planning on moving to another country and indeed sort of their parents and other people close to them invested in these decisions as well. So we do have to be mindful of I think sort of two different aspects on this and one is the very practical point of view is it feasible for them to travel which of course actually becomes out of the university's control so we are very fortunate here in the Czech Republic in that we are seeing a reduction in our measures and by the end of this month. Most things here will be reopened and of course we will be sort of monitoring what that means for for international travel and in due course but certainly for EU students, it means that the prospects are looking very good, let's say. But I think there's also that anxiety around not just the practical nature but how will teaching be. So, for example, you know, Georgia alluded before to the fact of social distancing and perhaps some students will have an expectation that they still want to see masks worn in certain spaces. And I think universities will have a responsibility to not just respond to the government measures, but also take on board what they think for their specific size of university for the programs they are delivering. And the students they are welcoming how they can be accommodated and those things can be addressed and I think we will see universities issuing different policies and guidance around that of course based not only on their locality, but based probably also on their student body. I think in terms of accommodation, this will also vary. In our case we have independent accommodation providers who we will work very closely with in terms of late arrivals and this can sometimes happen with visa delays anyway and again is probably something that universities are prepared for even if under different circumstances. And I think it's really a responsibility more about our level of communication to students so they understand what they have to do upon arrival. As George mentioned, if there is quarantine, what does that mean, and how we are providing also support for them. So, I think student services really come into focus as well during this time student health and well being we, we had a question that came in prior to this about what happens for those students who feel well but perhaps our experience in anxiety so I think universities have to anticipate that there's not just sort of a very practical aspect to respond to but also more nuanced and subtle anxieties to that also might only come out over time as we all do start to return. You know, to face to face teaching as obviously we've all sort of had this had this period of a break from that so this will be something that we do all need to respond to in time. We've had a lot for four individual applicants to consider. I think the meaning we can do is communicate and follow those government measures where applicable and add our own also where it's necessary to provide that reassurance for students. But just in terms of visas for George in the UK and for Zach in the US. Is there any significant threat for international students right now in terms of getting visas processed and even arriving in September. Well, for the moment I again I think things are a little bit foggy. The universities in the US generally issue their integration documentation at the beginning of May anyway. So we're not so far off the normal schedule at least. But for the moment, for example, you know students are not really being encouraged to try to get me their courage to plan visa appointments but there's not a definite guarantee that these visa appointments will happen in a normal way. They've completely gone away with any kind of paper application it all has to be online which was not the case before they actually could do both. And so they haven't yet jumped over that hurdle but I'm expecting given how things are happening in the US that there could be some bumps. Okay, and George. Yeah, I mean I would certainly echo those those sentiments in relation to the UK as well it's still a little bit uncertain as to what will happen. And, but at the moment he said wouldn't normally have started issuing cas letters for the main program. And at this point we would start next month. So we, we may have a little bit more certainty and head of that period. And I think where students are still depositing funds and start issuing those as normal. The question will then be whether they can get the relevant appointments in time and indeed whether they'll be able to sort their travel arrangements out to come to the UK. But really what we're doing at this point in time is progressing students as normal, because what we wouldn't want to do is to leave them in a position where they're unable to apply with things returning or getting back to a degree of normality. So one thing we're clear about is that the university need not to be one of the bumps whilst we do appreciate that there will undoubtedly be other books along the way. Okay, thanks. Thanks church. On to quality high school qualifications we know many national high school qualification examinations have been canceled and or are being assessed in different ways. In some countries there are entrance examinations and I know this came in a couple of the questions as well. So maybe from Mark in your experience if you have any issues and any comments that you can make on this. I don't know if you've got. Yeah, there's lots. There's lots, but I'll keep it very very short. There are huge amounts of philosophical arguments we could have around the way that a levels are going to be awarded this year, the way the IB is going to be awarded, and the way it looks almost certainly the leaving certain island is going to be awarded. I won't go into too much of the detail on that. What I will say is that generally speaking, most countries do seem to have come round to the fact that they will recognize an A level as an A level is an A level from whichever year it happened to be awarded in. The big question mark I'm going to raise there is Germany, as always, and they can be sticklers. So I am not confident that that advice would apply there, but say I've spoken about this in Spain. The feedback I'm getting is very much these will be if they are awarded as A levels in the UK that will be accepted as a levels anywhere else. I mean obviously this is a major worry. It is also a major worry again coming back to this issue of deferrals. If students are applying having had the opportunity to take their A levels in a normal window. Well, why didn't they so you know this whole thing that automatically you might you'll be okay in perpetuity. I don't know, but I do think you, we are getting to a point where most countries are accepting that this is a reality that they're just going to have to deal with. It's not the students fault, let's get on with it. The one, and again, I don't want to go into too much of the, too much of the difference between high school diplomas, but the difference we have in the UK is that we have this system whereby, literally at this stage in a game, a level students know absolutely nothing about the concrete on which a result can be based. I be students are mature bachelorette or whatever they will have a consistent body of work that will have meant that they've completed at least three out of four semesters, and you can make an accurate judgment on this. The UK assessment method is all a bit finger in the air, but the feedback I'm getting is very much that most countries will just have to accept it. Okay, Natasha, anything, anything to add on that, or perhaps on English language qualifications, which is also an aspect of international student admissions. Yeah, absolutely. I think we're having to respond very flexibly. And it was mentioned before that not all countries have come out yet and said that the final exams won't be held. There's still kind of differing and advise depending on the country, but we do know those major ones I be a level and students will still get grades. So I think at this stage, and certainly from our point of view, as Mark said, they will have a grade and we will work with that. Of course, students may feel that that's not going to be the mark they felt that they would have been able to achieve should they had had the opportunity to sit the exam. I believe pretty much across the board universities will be taking that into consideration because it is obviously an exceptional set of circumstances. And certainly we will be but at this time, it remains with that we make conditional offers to students and we expect to see those final results and should they not meet the expectations that the student had. And of course work with those individually and ask from our high school advisors for more information and background to make more contextual based admission decisions on that final basis. And I would imagine that that will be being replicated at other universities as well to try and make sure that a student isn't negatively impacted by the way in which they're going to achieve their final grades this year. Okay, Zach, what is their anxiety amongst your candidates around how the American universities might react to projected grades and then whatever. Well, not really from American universities because American universities normally have accepted students on a relatively unconditional basis they do not have conditional offers or things like this they just are supposed to maintain the same level of you know performance. I wouldn't say for American universities but what I might add is that for the French students at least I mean they are completely paranoid because they've been told that there is a committee of harmonization at the end of the year that will sit down and kind of look at their grades you know during the year and in French schools they're traditionally known for grading more severely than actually what would happen on final exams and so students are very concerned about whether or not they're going to be treated fairly during that committee so that's been an ongoing debate for all of them. Just a quick word about English qualifications as well. I have seen that you know most universities that have had, you know, offered conditional office students have said that they're willing to accept you know all these at home versions of the TOEFL the IELTS indicator. You know which has alleviated a lot of stress that some students were facing at that. So that's you know really great provided that you know universities remain flexible in that sense. Just for some concluding remarks what's going to happen in the future that means we're looking at advising students on their admissions choices or changes for September 2020 but now we're already looking at 2021. So maybe if we start with George just some concluding remarks on the long term and the recovery or the changes that might remain even as we recover from COVID. Sure. Well, I mean things are going to stay as they are or broadly as they are for some time certainly moving forward. What it says is that universities will do everything that they can to return to some kind of normality and to getting students back on campus and to getting their staff back on campus. From an applicant's point of view, I think that that's something which is important to bear in mind is that the flexibility has to all be as far as possible on the university side. And where we can make reasonable adjustments to teaching or reasonable adjustments to live in arrangements on campus universities absolutely will do so. There is some talk in the sector about how you would manage social distancing on the campus and it may be that campuses are teaching later than many of them do with their normal student body in order to do a kind of a shift system and get more people through. In that sense so that there's people who can be coming in for smaller class sizes. I mean what we're also seeing in the UK is that we're at a particular point within the journey through COVID-19. Some other countries, Czech Republic being a good example actually are a little bit ahead and more normality starting to resume in terms of almost normal class sizes being allowed to meet now. Now if we get to that point and it's groups of state 15 for example that's not a disaster certainly in terms of what can be delivered on campus. The challenges are and certainly the living arrangements for students and then obviously everything else about the student experience the details of which I probably don't need to go into on this webinar, but certainly that involves people being less than two meters in proximity to one another. But really the universities are doing everything they can and they will continue to do that. And so from an applicant point of view, if you're interested in the university or if you're advising students who are interested in studying, tell them to continue following the process because ultimately it's the universities who will have to provide the information of actually we're pausing, we're having a later intake, we're making one of our other entry points in the year, the main entry point now and pausing a different one. The changements have to be done from the university point of view. From an applicant perspective, if you continue to apply, there's every chance that you'll be allowed to defer, I can't see universities making students make a new application for example. So work with the universities and I'm sure also that they're telling you the most up to date information that they can we're certainly trying to come and communicate with all of our agents and partners, all of our applicants. It's not easy to give up to date information, but maintain contact with the universities and they'll be as flexible as they can be and getting students to the university as soon as possible. That's great and it is the work on the university side and it's the responsibility of ours now. Mark, from your perspective, advising students to go anywhere in the world and what's going to come up next year. Right. Okay, well, for me, a long term perspective on this is going to come pretty much encompass the next two months. I'm not willing to look much beyond that. The reason for that is primarily because of the fact that certainly in a UK context, this is really the prime season for students to be thinking about their 2021 destinations. I've been doing this long enough and anybody working in counseling in the UK is going to know that it's that kind of June July period where students are expected to go on open days. Start coming up with a short list of universities they might be interested in. Start looking at what's going to be on their personal statement and all of that. Clearly, some of those activities are just not going to happen this time round online open days as Natasha has already mentioned in our college context. These are going to become a much bigger thing as well. But I would say actually a one sense you could look at this being as a slight as an advantage. If an awful lot of university is now going to be blended or online, and those resources already exist whether they exist in the forms that universities would like to brag about them at this moment in time that's probably up the debate. One thing we've been advising students to do is to use this, you know, downtime, particularly year 13 and year 11 students in the UK, where you know their exams have just gone out the window is, you know, maybe look at doing a MOOC, you know, in general, maybe look at what resources universities have made available. We had huge response to the University of Groning and making some web classes available to Dutch University. Hundreds of people signed up. And when they looked at the people they'd got signed up for these classes that were nearly all British simply because I think a lot of schools have punted out the message that there are these fabulous resources that you can use. And I think that, you know, in the absence of actually being able to gain physical experience of a university I mean certainly nobody's going to go to attend an open day if there's a threat 14 day quarantine when you come back home again. So, you know, take this opportunity to look at the bits of university life that might very well be replicated in reality, even though I am skeptical about all this digital I won't go into this again but I do believe there might be a digital backlash coming back coming at us at some point in the future. But I think you know you use this time now. Everything's going to look different by September. Let's not try to think too far beyond that at this stage. Okay, thank you. Thank you, Mark. Zach, is it the same I looking forward only to as far as two months. No, I was going to say actually one of the most important kind of takeaways we can protect and to have from this is knowing that we kind of have to start advising in a more technical way earlier I think avoiding as much as possible the last minute decisions the last minute open days the I think these types of things getting students awake earlier. And that's something that I've been working towards a lot with my advisees over the last few years. And as a result, for example the students you know who would be applying in 2021 like basically in my cabinet were already completely full. And so those students are on board they've been here for a year they've been thinking about it and they feel much less stressed out, because they feel like they're ahead of the game. And I think that that's something we can all learn from you know how to be more ahead of the game in every way. And I think universities are getting a wonderful invitation to also innovate just like students will innovate and their own activities and things like that. To, you know, be prepared. You know for what we don't really know that's kind of what knowledge is about, you know getting to the boundaries of what we know and jumping off the cliff into the unknown to try to learn more. And I'd like to think that this could be an opportunity for that rather than some kind of do. Okay, thank you Zach. Natasha, concluding remarks, it is the concluding concluding remarks. So I think one thing that I did want to reiterate for our audience here was that that are going to be a lot of different situations based on the country based on the university come September, but ultimately, you still know the students at your school and you will know what will suit them well, and you will be able to still offer them advice within that context. And I would completely second what George, George said in that universities will try and be as flexible as possible. And we are also encouraging students to start that admission process because it is on us to inform them of what their options are and what September will look like as and when we know exactly how that is and to offer some clarity. And I think at this time as well, there's a challenge for universities to consider in that, you know, our colleagues in schools and colleges have been in exactly the same situation that we have. We're also teaching online and students experiences will have varied on this. And what their opinion is will have also varied on this. So this is something that universities, we need to be mindful of as well to make sure that the experience we offer them is at least, and if they've had an excellent experience, it replicates that at the university level, and should it be necessary to be online, but also that we understand kind of what their expectations might be and how still we can share with them that university level and experience through digital should it be required to some extent. But of course we do has has been echoed I think from everybody here. Hope that we can resume sort of the face to face teaching with as many students as possible come September but I think that's going to be a more realistic situation based on the university and country and program that a student wants to go for. So ultimately, as much as we can offer you kind of context and experience from what we've been hearing and anecdotal feedback from today. It will still be each individual students choice and decision to make sure that it's the right one for them come September. And of course, there might be other things that are available to them that they hadn't thought of in the past. You know there is US and UK education based around the world. So it might be that they have a local option they can start with and then transfer for example, you know, in a sense, the wealth of their options has almost become potentially more diverse so I would also echo that I encourage them to apply to the universities they wanted to keep informed about what their options will be at those universities to start in September and then make as an informed decision as they possibly can. Based on the information they have from those universities and which set of circumstances and program will be best for them but ultimately they will in most cases be starting a three or four year degree program so it's still a long term decision and hopefully students will will see it that way and whether they start in September or Tuesday later and they will still go for the program in the place where they will be most successful. Okay, thank you. Thank you, Natasha. We're one minute to the end of the hour, but let's get over to the Q&A. So I'm starting at the top. An anonymous attendee how will tuition fees change across Europe doesn't look like there's there's any expectation that there'll be any changes cost of living and student fees going to change that's actually the same type of question. I guess cost of living perhaps from the economic situation which is a whole other webinar, I think, which we won't address right now. Will they take the pandemic into account I think we've adequately responded to that one definitely the responsibility of universities now to deal with that. In general, continuing to promote or perhaps even stopping internationalization. We continue in to do so. Basically, the experience is all about so and we have to be do it safely we have to do it considerably but you know otherwise we won't be causing. Absolutely, absolutely. I'm certainly not going to change my mission as a result of this absolutely. I'm firm believer in international experience. You're not going to find me suggesting that we stop but one thing I just want to throw out there is I do think we will see a lot of changes in people's behavior around travel, and that could actually mean that longer chunks going to one place to stay there for a purpose are far more sensible way of seeing the world, the city breaks for a weekend on a Ryan air flight. And, you know, just across humans as a whole, this could see a change in behavior as to how we regard international experience. So yes the nature of internationalization. Yeah, I expect it will change, but will it cease to be a good idea. No. Thanks, Mark. Health insurance. Kind of a complicated issue I think in the Czech Republic you every everybody has to come in with health insurance and if you're EU then that is provided, most often by your home country. Does anybody else have any comments on health insurance. One thing from a conversation I was having with the university yesterday, and they work with a health insurance partner obviously is one of these add-ons that they offer to their students. They are currently trying to come up with something that will be more encompassing of, you know, issues around a pandemic. The one thing I would suggest to any student or any counselor looking at international insurance is definitely consider something with repatriation within it. Health insurance will honor that in the event of a second wave, but I think that's the one thing where perhaps you're going to have to look at that independently of health insurance in the country you're actually looking to go to. Yeah, that's a good point. And one of the most difficult things when this happened, which is at what point do students decide to go home or to university suggested so I think we're all more experienced around that. Around anxiety, the worried well, it's great phrase, support for that. I think we've touched on it in a number of ways. I don't know if any of the panelists want to address the universities around how they've supported students or intend to support students. I think I can just add to that again, just reiterating the nature of our student body being, as I say, we have students from over 90 different nationalities so we were really dealing with students with a broad section of anxieties I would say about the pandemic that we can face in different situations. I think I mentioned I think one of my earlier answers that sort of student services support becomes really important. And also that sense of community and how we can drive that through events but also the feedback from students what they need reaching out to them. And we've referenced it before but really communication. I think, you know, I'm sure we've all found ourselves on having a lot more screen time, you know, through these types of calls but we do still need to make sure that we're communicating with our students and understand what their concerns are. And it does create some opportunity to tackle topics such as resilience, and as I mentioned this whole webinar is in the context of facing change so at Proud College, that's one of the ways we've sort of almost branded events if you like, and that we have this annual theme facing change across the university so that everyone can get involved with and engage in. And it just allows for a space to talk about such initiatives but I think if you do have particular concerns about our student, I would just always reinforce to go to the university and find out what the capacities are for them to offer support to that individual. But I do think that universities will certainly be incorporating into their student services plan and their health and wellbeing sort of programs from September and making sure they have that communication channel open for students. A positive opportunity, perhaps online courses, I think, I think definitely some universities will develop more online or blended. I don't know. Every crisis demands a huge amount of creativity in addressing it and hopefully things will come out better on the other side. Anybody else? I would just say the same as what I said before Doug, really, is that yes, people will be attracted to programs in lieu of anything else, you know. And so there is that possibility, but all I would say to applicants is look at how genuinely online those programs are and how innovative they are and how they fit with a real degree program at the end of it. Exactly. Next question, training providers. I'm not sure we can really address that, although maybe it's related to some of the apprenticeships that are being run at T side. But I would imagine that would have been the same situation as sort of lab based tuition where it's really difficult right now in a lockdown. The only thing I'll add to that is that we do allow students to do placements in their own country now. And so the reason for that is that many students are in fact back in their own country with uncertainty as to when they can return to the UK. So we are putting some measures in place and we'll be contacting students about what that will look like. So if you want to do a placement in your own country in lieu of an opportunity elsewhere and that would encompass volunteering and lots of other things that are going on, then students can actually use that opportunity, which I think would be great experience. Okay, thanks. Thanks, George. Mike UK University, the fee system. I think we've more or less talked about this. I guess, I guess what they're getting at is will the fees be different if the semester is delivered online? For the moment, at least from the US point of view, I have a family who specifically did ask that question. And they have said absolutely not. They're going to maintain the tuition fees exactly as they are. The only thing that they're debating about is again, would students be living in, you know, in the US, there's a comprehensive fee, so it includes housing and tuition. So you kind of think of that as a budget. And so it might end up being a bit less expensive to have a year of studies if you are not fully, you know, on campus for in that regard, perhaps, but they haven't said that they're going to. Okay, good. This is interesting. I think this may be more for Mark. Some countries, well, I know Holland was talking about this. If you come to study on an English language program might require that they have some local language knowledge. I think that's what that question is getting at. I'm not so sure it seemed to be more about provision in English. And will this opportunity mean that these countries will will start offering more degree programs in English. I have to say I don't think it's connected. It might very well be that Germany or Germany and France have always been certain as far as the public universities are concerned, some of the least likely to teach in English anywhere in Europe. I don't see this particular COVID situation changing that the one exception there could be countries where there are a significant number of students coming to the UK anyway, who are reluctant to do that for COVID Brexit, whatever related reason. And maybe there is a greater desire for more people to study in English in their home country. And that could cause universities to reconsider. Maybe in the country's outline there, that is going to be private sector providers who take advantage of that rather than the state universities, I would say. Okay, thanks. Next one deferrals for current students. Yeah, we haven't really talked about current students but that could come up next year, if there's a second or a third wave. And I think I think we have addressed that during the webinar that their universities are providing guidance from NUSHA here. Yes, it's about the digital campus. I think that goes back to what George was saying, which is, some universities will be trying to deliver a full digital sort of online degree and others might not and it really is something that the student and you as study advisors need to look at I think. Yeah, I was just going to add on that one to look at the resources that are available from the individual universities as I'm sure we've all sort of seen different videos coming out different things to try and really get an insight as to what that means. And if they are planning that from September. How it will be taught is obviously a key aspect. I know you there was a point there about community. I think I've mentioned that through using break up rooms presentations. Still making sure that's viable for students so they don't become sort of isolated as it was but it's something that universities will need to be aware of. Then it's about, I assume, appeals and resets of, I guess, of the A level or the IB. I mean, this is really a question of timing more than anything else. And they're certainly not going to, I can't think of any European universities again the US context might be slightly different. But I think European universities don't really care if you reset your A levels. So the idea that you've got these grades you went back and tried to get better ones and you achieve them is going to be something that there would never be an issue with. And then just becomes one of timing. I mean, we have spoken about these real levels being available sort of September really doesn't fit in with what schools are going to be wanting to achieve next year. So it's already been pushed back to perhaps January or whatever. So certainly you're going to miss an academic year that way. But I don't think there's going to be any negative consequences of that. The issue we've had right now around the A levels is about external candidates, people who are taking them away from register, you know, or just using an exam centre to sit the exam, but they haven't actually had tuition there. How are they going to be awarded a grade when nobody knows who they are that that's causing huge problems at one or two universities say, how on, we're just going to have to wait and see we're going to have to insist that these candidates take the exams, but that's a slightly different point from the question. So I'll leave it there. Okay, and the last question actually is a good segue into a future webinar. I guess it's back to an old topic when our lives were very different indeed a few months ago. And I guess that's for George or Mark. Is there any, any word on when you students are going to know their fee structure in the UK. From our point of view, no, I think other things have kind of taken over with regard to this one thing I will say is that we're in an interesting time in the UK anyway certainly there's been a demographic dip course which people know about in the 18 year olds going to university. And there are some UK students who may choose to go to more local universities off the back of COVID-19 we don't know that for certain, but that that could happen. And one thing that is going to happen is that there'll be a cap on UK numbers and for the next year so home. Well, we're pretty sure this will happen. We're going to have a student number cap for going to UK universities. And so what that will mean is that there's a limit to how many students UK universities can recruit. They're going to be looking to fill those gaps. And normally the international market would be the first port of call as in overseas tier four students, but a lot of that is still in uncertainty of course this crisis started in China the market for the UK. India is affected quite badly so we don't know where those big numbers would come from. I think European students, if they're interested in going to the UK, still have a fair bit of buy and power. And I wouldn't think it makes sense to start hiking up fees for European students as early as this. In spite of what happens with Brexit I think that we could well see a slight increase in fees, maybe fees remaining the same for a transitionary period, that's the language that we're hearing from government. Mark you might be closer to it and have a bit of a clearer idea but that's what I'd expect. I do have lots to say on this but I did want you to take a swing at it before I got stuck in. Basically, I can't really talk about this from the perspective of a UK institution it wouldn't be correct to do so. But I can sort of give you the mirror image, which is what's going to happen to Brits going to Europe. I think if I were to offer a student one piece of advice which might seem a little bit flippant because I am aware that not really anybody's going to be able to do this. But if you are thinking about coming to the UK the only real way you can protect yourself as an EU national is to get here before the end of the transition period and establish residency. After that all bets are off. Basically, we work predominantly with British students going to European universities, which either means private universities, or it means the Netherlands, let's be honest. The Netherlands, we do know that if somebody is resident there before the end of the transition period, their rights will continue forever. If they go there one day after, they're going to be an international student. Now as George quite rightly points out, that's got nothing to do with any negotiation between the UK and the EU that might mean some kind of different arrangement is provided for. But in the event of a hard Brexit with nothing else coming up the road, I would say that definitely 2021 you are looking at higher fees. Even if you're looking at the same fees. Again, there's a secondary issue of access to finance. Will student finance England still support for tuition fees EU students who come after 2020. Again, I'd be speculating if I said anything. I do think there are some people who are regarding this as a fabulous opportunity to charge EU nationals international fees. I do think those people are incapable of seeing much beyond Oxford and LSE, which is to nobody's great benefit. Yeah, I never I never thought that a Brexit question would be a nice diversion from a from a pandemic. So, thank you to the panel. It's, I know all of you and it's been wonderful to see you here in this distance form. I look forward to sharing a glass of wine or beer depending on which country you're in. Soon, we don't know when that will be, but hopefully we'll be soon for all of the attendees to the webinar. Thank you very much for your attention. And we will be very grateful if you could provide us some feedback. I think the zoom webinar lands you back in your browser on a feedback form if it doesn't or if you don't want to do it now. If you're interested, visit prog college dot CZ slash webinar. That link will also be in the follow up email which is planned to come out in two days. And that will be the recorded webinar and the slides. Please do circulate any colleagues who you think might be interested. And I'll leave on the screen here. Thank you to all of our panelists if you want to contact them directly. And so, with that, I guess I would just like to say, stay safe and have a great afternoon.