 All right, welcome to the dynastic post game show. We are here, we are here every week and we have a couple of fantastic episodes to discuss Tom Brady in 2008. Well, Brady wanted to play. He did not play in 2008, but we got the guy who did. Mr. Matt Castle joins us. Matt, this is a great episode. Some, a lot of good moments. Let's start off with this one. What was it like? What was it like to go from, hey, 2007? You're observing, you know, you guys had the big loss in the Super Bowl, 2008. This is a revenge tour and all of a sudden you're placing that, placing that moment. What was that like for you? It was insanity. I mean, I'll be honest with you. It was chaotic. It was insanity and it was pressure packed through and through because look, I had been the backup for a long period of time, hadn't started a game since high school. You guys all know the story and all this stuff. And then all of a sudden, everybody would always say, that opportunity might come today. They said, and then it happened. And it was just right at overnight. Everybody's talking about me. Why didn't they bring in a veteran quarterback? But for me, it was about going out there and performing. And luckily I was able to kind of get my feet wet those first few weeks kind of led throughout the early part of that stages. But then we started to get on a roll and my confidence started to gain. I think the guys around me were a big part of that just every single day being there for me. But it was a wild ride and it was hard to stay focused at times. Hey Matt, one of the real subtext to this entire episode, a through line for the whole series is Tom Brady and his motivation and will to win and compete. And we talked as I was driving up here. I mean, the guy was coming off a 50 touchdown season but as is made clear in this episode, his palms were still sweating because of his understanding of how Bill would operate. Right, and that's part of Tom Brady, right? It is part of why he's had the longevity that he has is because he never took it for granted. I'd always remember the statement that he said, he said, you never wanna see somebody else doing your job. And he also knows that the reason why he was in that position the first place was he took somebody else's job, withdrew blood, so got hurt and then he was able to step in and take advantage of his opportunity. And there's a lot of good guys sitting in the wings waiting to step up and have that opportunity. So that's probably where you see that sense of urgency of him getting back the motivation that he wanted to return as quickly as possible because that's the reality of the NFL is if you're not out there doing it, somebody else is gonna step up and take that job. Matt, take us behind the curtain a little bit. This, tell us how the sausage was made. You know, some people who are interviewed for this series, they have stories, oh wow, it was great to go down memory lane. Some people became emotional during the interviews. What was it like for you? Was it a long process? Just tell us what it was like to be interviewed for this. It was an incredible experience. I mean, we did it at a studio in Los Angeles and the producers and the directors were there and it was about a two to three hour process and then we went through that entire season and you didn't get to see a lot of it. I mean, I even went into the part about my dad and when he passed away during that season, all those things and I got emotional and it was also incredible because we got to see a lot of those clips that they show like right after when Bill Belichick comes in Castle, you haven't won a game since you were in seventh grade or something, but you did today. And so to relive those moments because they're ingrained into your mind, but again, you forget after some period of time goes by, you've been through a lot of other circumstances, you forget those incredible moments and so it was fun to relive that and talk about that season and the players and the coaches and everybody that was involved. Matt, one of the greatest quotes in the entire 10 episode series is Bill, talking to you about recognizing the Blitz. Can you explain exactly what happened for the folks who have not yet seen this? Well, actually I'm gonna read this. Before we do it, I'll read it for you. It's a criticism by Bill Belichick. One time I don't see a corner of Blitz and I get absolutely annihilated. Bill Belichick comes in and he says, Castle, can we figure out the corner of Blitz? Because I don't wanna have to write your mother a letter that says, dear Mrs. Castle, sorry to inform you that your son is dead because he's a dumb ass and didn't see the corner of Blitz. Oh, it's so true. I mean, that is a story that I've said a few times, but I mean, I was sitting there and that was my rookie year. It was last pre-season game. I wasn't anticipating them bringing a corner of Blitz and I'm looking down the field, I get crushed and he literally went into the team meeting and rewound it, played it about seven different times and then he makes that statement and I'm sitting there going, oh my gosh, the best part about the story though, we fast forward a whole nother season. We're now, I'm now in my second season, we're playing the Giants for the last pre-season game and what does he do the night before we're going out to play the Giants? He revisits that clip to remind me not to forget the corner of Blitz because I bet, Castle, because you didn't see it last year, you're going to see it again. So for God's sakes, please don't forget about the corner of Blitz and check that out. I was like, man, I mean, I'm trying to get focused through a game, you're trying to bring up old stuff. I mean, come on, coach. Is that kind of steal trap memory really illustrative of the genius of Bill that he's going to find a play that could possibly change a game that you might have forgotten about? Oh, absolutely. He would always bring those reminders up and sometimes even throughout the course of a season, he would go back years prior and talk about how a defensive coordinator attacked us a certain way and this gave us problems and we have to be alert. He never left any stone unturned and that was the most amazing part about playing for Coach Belichick is his meticulous attention to detail. You hear it, but to see it first hand and in person and be there and watch him go through the processing and the game playing throughout the course of a week and really nail down those little details that could get us beat. It was absolutely remarkable. You know, as I was watching it, look, you know, it's entertaining when it's not happening to you. So these stories, you're telling us a story about the corner blitz. Hey, it's a funny story. It didn't happen to me. So like, look, this is funny, but just watching Bill push the players, push you, push Bruceke, push Harrison, push all of these guys, I'm sitting there, I'm saying, maybe something's wrong with me because I get it. I think, yeah, I think this team needed that. I think that brings the best out of them. Whereas some people say that doesn't work, you can't do that anymore. Just what was that like to be in that cauldron where you know at all times he could call you out, he's gonna push you to bring out something that he thinks should be brought out? That's part of this genius is that sometimes he recognizes something in you and pushes you to a point that you didn't even believe in your own heart of hearts that you could get to. But it is, it's not for everybody. And you know, those players that can't handle it from a mental side of it and be mentally tough are gonna be the ones that get weeded out. But on a day-to-day basis, you're going in and you've got to have your head on a swivel. You've got to be accountable. You've got to be prepared. He'd do these on Wednesday meetings. I used to hate Wednesday, or Thursday meetings, excuse me. I used to hate Thursday meetings because we'd come in and he'd do call outs. He'd say, Castle, who's the middle linebacker? What's his number? Who's their nickel back? Who do they like to bring in the dime personnel? And you'd have to be on top of it or you're gonna get embarrassed in front of your own team. So he would push you constantly. And then in practice, he was always getting after you. And because he wanted to make practice as realistic as it would be in a game and put pressure on you at all times to see how you would react. And that's really why he had the slogan practice preparation becomes game reality because the truth is we push each other so hard and compete so hard in practice and he would not let anything go. That's why I think this team was so successful for so many years was because he never overlooked the small stuff. Is Bill being treated fairly so far in this series? And it is going to turn, beginning with the next episode, which we're gonna discuss after we let you go with the Aaron Hernandez episode and then going forward with kind of the splintering of the team. But do you think the bill is being represented fairly so far in the series? I think he is to a certain degree. I mean, it's hard to capture Bill in everything that he does, but it's realistic look inside the building. When you see him out of practice and he's getting after somebody, when he's talking to Tom Brady on the sideline, when he was talking to me. And so you're actually seeing him in action, which a lot of people aren't privy to. And so it's, for me, it brings back a lot of great memories. It also brings back a lot of those memories like we just talked about with the corner blitz where I'm sitting there going, man, I remember sitting in my seat just squirming and stuff like that. But you appreciate it more so even now that after you've moved on and you've gone to other organizations and you see the genius behind it and you see what he was able to accomplish. And it's just been a fun series to watch and go back in time. You know what, I really enjoyed and I love your perspective on it because I mean, you were in that room after you all lose to the Giants in 2007, ruining what was gonna be a perfect season. 2008, he comes back and says, look, I can't pretend like this didn't happen. I'm not gonna forget a season in which we won 16 games in a regular season. And then Brady gets up and speaks in front of the group. You know, what was that like being there and just addressing that? Because it must have been awkward to address, hey, an 18 in one season and everybody being devastated by an 18 in one season. Right, I think what he's trying to do is probably bring back and put it in perspective because we accomplished something that season that I don't know if any other NFL team is gonna be able to do that. I mean, going 16-0, I know 18-0, we didn't finish the job and it would have been remarkable to have that stacked up and everybody was disappointed. But being a historian of the game and appreciating the history of it all, he wanted to make sure that we all understood that we should be proud about that season and what we accomplished in that season and how difficult it is to win in the NFL at a consistent rate. And so the fact that he acknowledged that and then of course at the end of that clip, he's like, but we're moving on. Yeah, that's funny. No, go ahead, go ahead, Tom. He was like, I wanna make sure the people appreciate the galloping stallion that you were in that season because you weren't Michael Vick, but you were pretty friggin' good in the open field. Do you consider the 2008 season a success? In many regards, yes. I think that the way that the team responded because look, it was adversity for everybody and I know that we had success in 111 games but there was a lot of adjustments that needed to be made. They also had to buy in and believe in me which was probably pretty difficult to do early on in the season just not understanding who I was or what they were gonna get. But at the end of the day, I really wish that team would have made the playoffs because this team, we won four straight at the end of the season and I think we would have made some serious noise. We're probably playing our best football and unfortunately it was just one of those situations where the first time in what, 20 years or something like that, that 11 and five team didn't make the playoffs. So it was successful in many regards but it was disappointing that we didn't get a shot and we go make a run in the playoffs. Final question for you, what was your relationship like with Brady in 2008? Yeah, you know, Brady and I had built a relationship over the last three seasons being teammates and being as close as you possibly can be and so it was difficult to see him go down and I knew that he was going through a lot of stuff and the other part about it that I did appreciate for Tom was that he stepped out away from the building, right? He allowed me to grow into that role of being the starting quarterback to be heard by the guys and seen as a leader as the season progressed because I think with him there and his presence, everybody feels his presence and the way in which he addresses the team and all that and I think I would have felt a little bit different in terms of how I would have approached it but he was remarkable with me throughout that course of that season because you could tell he was going through a lot but at the same time he was the first guy to call me after the games as I got on the bus, he'd call me before the games, he would tell me after the game, hey, that one time when you tried to rip that ball in there and the cover seven, which is a double, he's like, dude, you should have took off and run. I was like, oh, good idea, maybe next time. But he was one of my biggest supporters and I always appreciated him for that because there was never any ego involved with him even though maybe he was feeling like, gosh, I want to get back there as soon as possible because he knows the road of the NFL as you could possibly lose your job at any time but I'm pretty sure he was confident in the fact that he's the best ever player in the game, he just came out 50 touchdown year just before the injury and he was going to come back bigger stronger than ever. Well, Matt Castle, I'm glad you're still with us among the living that the corner blitz didn't take you out. Always enjoyed talking to you, my friend. I appreciate it. Coming up, all the Dynasty takes a dark turn as episode six focuses on the tragic events involving Aaron Hernandez and chilling interviews with former teammates, Dionne Branch and Brandon Lloyd. We react to that all, next. Truly riveting episode available now on Apple TV Plus. Hernandez is his former teammates detailing the many warning signs during his time with the Patriots. Look, Tom, this episode, I'm just gonna tell you, it made me uncomfortable in a lot of ways. It was uncomfortable because the situation's uncomfortable. It was, you had somebody here that many of us watched and were entertained by and had no idea that he was doing so many homicidal things. I mean, that's what it was. This is a guy who had committed, allegedly committed a double murder, a part of it. He was acquitted of that, but allegedly a part of that. And then signed a contract shortly after that and nobody knew that that happened until after what happened in 2013 and the murder of Oden Lloyd. So that was uncomfortable there, but it was also uncomfortable with the presentation of it because I think that Dionne Branch interview was powerful. I thought Brandon Lloyd's comments were powerful, but I felt like it was more provocative than definitive. I think there were a lot more interviews, a lot more voices that we needed to hear before we could get to where the episode candidly, I felt like it was dangerously close to oversimplifying a very complicated situation with Aaron Hernandez. I understand what you're saying and it is uncomfortable to watch Dionne Branch, who was a friend of his struggle and struggle and struggle for upwards of 25 seconds on screen as he tries to articulate where he went wrong. And I think what would do well here because there's a lot of hindsight that you're gonna be able to use as a viewer and say the Patriots should have known, Robert Kraft should have known, more than anyone, Bill Belichick should have known, Ernie Adams knew, they all knew that there was this litany of things. There should have been more done to explore the psychological aspect of the psychopathic tendencies of Aaron Hernandez. Why is he a psychopath? Because psychopaths, and again, we did all the reporting and reading, so I'm not a psych major, but I understand it, you're able to convince others of how legitimate you are and your word is. I mean, you're gonna see him stand up in the rookie symposium and speak to Chris Carter about how do I get myself on the straight and narrow? And he most likely has no freaking intention of ever being on the straight and narrow, but he understands that that might be cover. He covered his tracks with donations to Myra Kraft and Robert Kraft. He covered his tracks with kisses on the owner's cheeks. He covered his tracks by perhaps asking Bill Belichick, trade me to Seattle, please. I don't know if he wanted any of those things. He was a psychopath. Right, and that's what I mean, but I feel like that wasn't explored. No, it was not. That wasn't explored enough. And so when we go back, and if you're Bill Belichick, the way it's presented, it's almost like, hey, hey, this guy asked Bill, look at this guy, this awful guy, he asked Bill to trade him to the West Coast because he was afraid and Bill said no. Well, that's part of it, but that's not the whole story. If the Patriots really were, they had reached a point with Aaron Hernandez where they had kind of trapped themselves. You either, you have the decision to draft him or not in 2010 when he writes letters to other teams, including the Patriots saying, give me a chance. So you can draft him or not, they drafted him. In 2012, you can say, oh, this is a shady character. We can extend him or not, they extended him. And so in 2012, he's a good player, Tom. In 2013, a good player who you don't know is a murderer comes to you and says, trade me to the West Coast. And you say, hey, I'm gonna give you security because you know what that brings? Accountability, he didn't want it. He didn't want security because security means, I'm gonna, my lifestyle is gonna be exposed. And it's gonna be exposed. And that's why a lot of it was a cover. And I think when we look at this episode, all the things that Aaron Hernandez had done to cover his tracks when they all started to come down on him, the Patriots were, as you put it, they were too far down the road to back out. So all they had to do was cross their fingers and hope that worse didn't come to worse. Worst coming to worse did not mean multiple dead bodies ascribable to the actions of Aaron Hernandez. I do think when we look at this, Bill Belichick does not come off well, especially post-arrest when it stated that, or we saw it too, the footage from a helicopter of Aaron Hernandez going into the facility and then being told to get out. And when he leaves, the Patriots told him to get out. And Jonathan Kraft explains that I wanted him gone. I went in the F out of there and Bill said he wanted it to play out. So really that was a, this is what we wanted, this is what Bill wanted. Now Bill, if he had a different iteration or recitation of facts, he had the opportunity to say that's not true. And if he sees this episode and says that's not what happens, it's the onus is on him. But to me, that was difficult to watch for Bill Belichick. That was difficult. It does not, I agree. He does not look great there. How do you think Robert Kraft looks? Because it's almost two approaches that footage, and I hadn't seen that footage before. I don't know about you. When he's talking with Belichick, I can say I had a long talk with Hernandez and he understands what he needs to do and get his life together. So there's one, that's an acknowledgement that they knew there was some issue, not homicide, but they knew there was some issues, rough around the edges with Hernandez. But then he comes back and says, hey, he fooled me. I can't believe I got snookered like that. So would you rather be the guy who gets snookered or would you rather be the guy who knew there were issues and yet you kept him on the team? Like how does it make him, because he was both of those guys in this episode. I would rather be the guy who got snookered than the one who knew that there were issues and just kept my fingers crossed that it would work out. I think, and Bob Holder from the Globe does a good job detailing, look, there were multiple, multiple, multiple breadcrumbs indicating that this isn't a guy who makes a couple of wrong moves over the course of a year. He lives a lifestyle that is not conducive to society at large. Nevermind a high profile role in the NFL with a $65 or $100 million contract, whichever it was. But the Patriots were married to the talent and married to the notion that they could make him be better the way they did with multiple players prior to Hernandez' arrival. Whether it be Corey Dillon, whether it be Randy Moss, whether it be any number of guys with transgressions, far more benign than anything Aaron Hernandez wound up with. I mean, we're talking about bad actors who might have squirted a referee with a water bottle in Randy Moss's case or bumped a crossing guard with his car. This is not what Aaron Hernandez was. It was much more diabolical, Mike. Yeah, and I don't think that the Patriots were a breeding ground for what Aaron Hernandez became. Why did they ignore it, though? You're gonna see one of the most, again, and this is such a powerful episode, to say that Aaron Hernandez was acting out during a practice. And Bill, quote, I think it was Welker who said, and they did nothing about it. Yeah. Why? Yeah, well, I want to, that's a good question, but also I want to know, why didn't we hear from more people? I want to hear from Tom Brady on this. Even if Brady says, I'm not talking about it, did they ask Brady or did they just say, look, we're gonna ignore the Brady part and I want to go more with Dionne Branch and Brandon Lloyd. Did they ask Gronk, who was in the same tight end room with Aaron Hernandez? Matt Light has been critical. What were you told to do differently, though? I don't know. I don't know. But what conclusion would you reach if it's different? But I want to hear more voices. It's a, look, I understand. I'm not trying to tell them, this is a film. This is a dramatic film that they're doing. It's a docu-series. You're not going every step of the way they skip over certain areas, whether it's a serious issue like Aaron Hernandez or skipping over Super Bowls two and three in the dynasty. But I'm saying, just as a journalist, I wouldn't say it's journalistic, it's exhaustive, it's selective. I think you're right, but if you hear from more people, is it gonna change your end question, which is, should the Patriots have known and moved on? Oh, well, yeah, but I'm not trying to answer that question. I just want more voices. Because I don't know the answer to that. I don't know the answer to it. But hey, thanks for watching. We'll see you later.