 this special edition of CN Live, season five, episode nine, Turkish elections towards the east or west. I'm Joe Laurier, the editor-in-chief of Consortium News. The Turkish presidential election on Sunday ended with no winner forcing a runoff vote on May 28. Turkish President Raji Tayyip Erdogan, who was running behind in the polls, did better than expected but still fell short of the required 50% plus one of the vote. Kamal Kalichtorolo has been the opposition leader since 2010 of Turkey's oldest political party, the People's Republican Party or CHP, founded by Mustafa Kamal Ataturk in 1923. Kalichtorolo heads a coalition of several parties, but they also fell short of the 50% required and will face off against Erdogan in the second round. It's a pivotal election for Turkey's future, not only at home but in its orientation in the world. Will it return fully to the western camp or continue to look increasingly eastward? Our guest today is Adawan Vatandas, a Turkish investigative journalist, specializing in political science and international relations. He's the author of 13 books, many of which have been bestsellers in Turkey. Reporting from the bridge in Hungary for power, Erdogan's witch hunt and the abuse of state power are the first two of his books that have been published in English in the United States. Adawan is the founder and the editor-in-chief of the English language, hollyturko.com, highly recommended for news about Turkey. Adawan, thanks for coming on the show today. Thanks for handing me Joe. Now let me just ask you what the result Sunday is surprised for you. The polls indicated that Adawan could actually lose. Well honestly, I wasn't surprised. This is what I was expecting, not because Erdogan was successful, just because I knew the structure of the Turkish political system. So Erdogan is running the country for almost 22 or 23 years. It's been a long time. So he has consolidated too much power. So even though the Turkish political system looks like that it's a democracy, but it's not. So there is no separation of power, separation of powers in Turkey. So we don't have free elections, free and fair elections. So these are some important methods to measure the quality of democracy. We don't have free media. We don't have free election system. And when we look at the election results, we have to question where the election results are coming from. So one of the most important sources is Anatolian news agency and it's a state-owned news agency. So controlled by Erdogan government. And second one, it is the high election board. So this organization should be an independent organization, but every single person who is working in this government body was responsible to regulate the adjustments about the elections were appointed by Erdogan. So it is very reasonable not to trust this high election board. So when we compare the election results with the documents which the opposition party possess and reveals and the election results coming from this high election board are contradicting. So what now we are seeing in Turkey is that there are thousands of reports coming from every cities of Turkey indicating the election France. So right now the people, the public opinion is waiting for the opposition leaders to come out and raise their voices, raise their concern. So today two important developments happened. One is there were two important figures in the opposition party who were responsible to register the votes in their system and release the results to the public. And the other one was responsible for media communications of the opposition party. So opposition party fired these two figures considering them bribed or being affiliated with the Erdogan government. So the people started to realize how and how the Erdogan government facilitated these you know, frauds efforts during the election. So it is so interesting to see that for example the Kurdish voters in the southern eastern part of Turkey, so it is impossible for the Kurdish people to vote for a nationalist party which is a partner of Erdogan governments. So they have their own political party represented in the system, you know, who was which was running for the elections. But when we look at the, you know, the graphs and the reports, it seems that they voted for the nationalist party. So there are thousands of different reports right now coming from different parts of Turkey. So it was on Sunday evening, it was 2330. So the results were showing the opposition party leader Kemal Alkalic-Doroglu had won 49.5 percent of the votes and Erdogan was exactly the opposite. It was some 44.5 or something similar to that. In 30 minutes, the high election board reversed the results and replaced probably the 3 percent of the votes to the, you know, the AKP. If they manipulated the votes that way, why didn't they just give Erdogan 51 percent and have him win out right then? This is exactly the question that the people are asking right now. So they just stopped Erdogan's votes on 49.5 percent. So it was so easy for them to make it 50 or 51, but they didn't do it because they already knew that they lost the election. Do you understand what I mean? So they already knew it, but they just reversed it and they just, you know, told them, let's finish it during the second round. How do you know about this? How do you know about these earlier figures that were 3 percent less? Was it on television? It was all documented. Yeah. I mean, there was only one credible news channel. It was Televon. So they were just spreading the real results coming from the high election body. It was 1130. They showed all these results. In 30 minutes, something happened. Something happened and they just revert the votes. Right now, as I told you, there were two important figures in the opposition party. They were fired today. There were some suspicions about these two figures for the last two or three months. The people were actually recommending the opposition to fire these two people because there were some allegations about them. So the mistake that the opposition party did during the election to keep these two figures during the election. So they were too late to fire them. So right now, you know, they will have to upgrade their IT systems, their systems, which are responsible to count and the results on time to their system and to release these results to the public immediately. So this is what's right now. The Turkish public is right now thinking and discussing. If you can follow the social media right now, you can see thousands of reports coming from everywhere. And some of the opposition leaders already started to raise their concerns about the accuracy of the results. And yes, this, I mean, the people also are expecting the opposition leader Kemal Kalustarov to come out and tell the people that they are objecting officially to the high election board. They are objecting the results on local levels, but they have to do it by going to the high election body and declare that they do not accept the results. So we are waiting for these kind of developments as well. I see. So why, is there a reason why he would not do that? Kalustarov, why he would not make a formal This is a very good question, Joe. This is a very good question. So as I told you, last nights, sorry, on Sunday nights around 11.30, 11.30 p.m. Turkish time according to you. Yeah, according to yes, according to Turkish time. Yes. So as I told you, the results were so obvious. Kalustarov was ahead of Erdogan. They changed it. They did something. So Erdogan went on Erdogan went to Ankara and started to give a speech. He didn't declare a victory, but he gave a speech that, you know, it looks like that it is, they have to try it for the second round. So he also declared that he is very much ahead of the opposition. So just put yourself in front, you know, as the opposition leaders. So they are watching Erdogan's, you know, Revelation's Erdogan speech. Erdogan says he is ahead of the opposition and they will try the second round. So opposition has two options. They would just declare that this is a lie because they already know the results. It's in their hands. Okay. Or just call the people to the streets. But Erdogan has the power of the military, intelligence, police, and some paramilitary groups. So what I understand is that the opposition leaders wouldn't put the people's lives to risk. They didn't want to take that risk. So I think they just wanted to make it, you know, in a more peaceful way so that they wouldn't put the lives of the people to risk. Right. So the polls showed that other one could lose. So you're saying the actual results were more or less in line with what the opinion polls were before the election? Absolutely. So probably, yeah, probably Kalichdar Olu got 51 to 52. The polls were saying that he would probably get 53 to 54. Yeah. But you know, this is what we are seeing right now. Probably they got 51, 52 points of votes. But we will see how these objections will end up with. Tell us the audience about the coalition that was formed. This was something new, I think, that Kalichdar Olu wasn't just a Republican party. He put together how many parties who put together. Yeah, CHP represents the secular values, secular Republican values and principles. So as you had mentioned, it was founded by the founder of Turkey, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. And then E-party, E-party was part of the nationalist party. So the leader of the party is a lady, a medal actioner. So they represent, you know, the nationalist and conservative values. And then we have Ali Babacan, Ali Babacan was part of AKP. He's very liberal and he is expert on economy. And then we have Saadet Partisi, Saadet Partisi is an Islamist party. So they are the predecessors of AKP. So AKP being Erdogan's party, correct? Yes, right. So AKP was actually coming from Saadet Partisi, Saadet Party. So they still, you know, represent similar values, Islamist values. And then we have a democratic party. It's not, this party is not that big, but the leader of the party has a PhD from Harvard University. So he's a very credible person as well. So this is the coalition. This is a coalition of different perspectives and opinions of the Turkish nation. Also, the Kurdish voters actually supported this formation, so the HDP. So they supported this party, even though this coalition didn't promise anything to them. So this was something that had to be, you know, appreciated about the Kurdish voters in Turkey. They voted for democracy. Tell me, explain again what happened with the Kurds. Were they not allowed to vote for? No, Kurdish people supported this coalition, even though they were not promised anything. You know, they didn't promise anything to the Kurdish party, Kurdish people for their support. They didn't promise anything in the government. They didn't promise anything, but they just believed that this change, this tendency for change in the country is something that they had to support. And they support the Kemal Kılıçdaroğlu coalition. Right. And one also, I forgot to mention about Ahmet Davutoglu. He was a former prime minister of Erdogan government. So he also established his own party, Gelecek Partizan's future party. They also represent similar conservative and Islamist parties. So you see that there are different ideologies and, you know, political views in this coalition, including the Kurds. The Kurds were also supported this coalition. Basically, the entire country, all the parties against Erdogan. That's correct. So you understand that the Kurds had no reason to vote for a right wing, an extreme right wing political party in the south, in the east. So this is how we can understand that there was, you know, the frowns going on during the elections. Prod, a manipulation of the votes. Okay. Interesting. Now let's get a little bit into the issues of this election. The western countries, the power is, it seems like they clearly wanted Erdogan to lose. They are concerned about his drift towards Eurasia and against, away from the west, especially towards Russia and China. The Economist magazine had a huge cover story and basically they called for him to be defeated. How was that received in Turkey? Was there any backlash? Because the west made it so obvious they wanted Erdogan to lose. Well, no matter what the west says about Erdogan government, even though, you know, if they would say something positive about the Erdogan government, so they have the tendency to have this entire western sentiment, anti-western view, because this is what they are using. They are saying that the west is jealous of the Turkish leadership, Turkish, you know, developments. So this is what they are using all the time. United States is trying to destroy Turkey. European Union is trying to destroy Turkey. So no matter what the western countries say, this is how, what actually they would sell to the Turkish public, because this is how they are feeding the Turkish nationalism. So they said that the western countries are against them and supporting the opposition party. So I don't actually have a clear picture to make this claim personally. So these are people from the AKP, from Erdogan's AKP party that have accepted this narrative that the west and the US and Europe are trying to destroy Turkey? That's correct. That's not widely believed amongst the opposition parties, correct? Right. I mean, you can say that western countries prefer to see a democracy in Turkey, because this change in Turkey would affect some illiberal democracies, illiberal political systems in the world. It may affect Russia, so you know that Russian hackers and Russian, you know, circles, maybe intelligence-related circles support its, you know, Erdogan during this election. I don't have any, you know, clue. I don't have any documents, but this is what the opposition leader said several days ago. So they accused Russian governments for making this kind of efforts. Yeah. I was going to ask you about that, this allegation of Russian interference. You know, we had that in the United States too, in cause such division in the country for so many years, and there really was no evidence that Russia so you're saying you don't know what the truth is about that allegation? I don't know. I don't know what the truth is about it, but the former Turkish intelligence servers made that claim several weeks ago. He said that they would expect the Russian government to try this kind of efforts, and also the opposition party leader made that claim several days ago when they see some, you know, doctored images in the social media. So this is what they saw, but I don't think that, you know, AKP or Turkish intelligence would need the Russian's help. They can clearly make these kind of things by themselves. Right. Well, I think it's clear Russia would prefer to went to win just like they would prefer that Hillary Clinton lost, but that's not proof that they actually look, you know, Turkey, you just make Joe, when you look at the Ukraine War, Erdogan is playing very interestingly. So Erdogan is selling drones to Ukraine. Right. So and Ukraine is using these drones against the Russia, against Russia, the Russian army. On the other hand, Turkey looks like that Turkey has a good relationship with Putin or Russian government. So it is not so easy to make, you know, that's assumption. I mean, where I mean, which country is where I don't see that picture very well. Before I get deeply into that issue, which I want to talk about extensively about the foreign issues, there were also parliamentary elections, correct, on Sunday. And that was who did better there. And it seems like that the other one's party did better than the coalition. But that's that's correct. Based on the same, you know, based on the same crowds related to the election results. So I told you, for example, it is not possible for Mehepe, the Turkish, you know, nationalist party to get some 11 points of 11 percent of the votes. It's impossible. So they cannot get votes in this Kurdish populated areas. And no one can explain it. You know, no one can explain how they made it in this, you know, very radical, very, you know, politically motivated Kurdish cities. They don't like each other. No, the MHP explained this is not the ones party, but they're aligned with they haven't aligned. So there's okay. And you're saying the Kurds would never have voted for that part. But so the parliamentary results showed what that he that it shows that I don't want is going to dominate the parliament. Yeah. So if if they keep that, you know, like this, and at the end of the day on May 28, if Kılıçdoroglu would win the presidential elections, it is going to be difficult for them to run the country because they might have some kind of gridlock that we have seen in the United States in the past. But we don't know exactly what's going to happen. You know, we don't know whether the opposition party will go and ask for their rights. You know, they might go to the high election board and object the results and we will see what's going to happen. Now, it's ironic because it was in 2013 or 14 that Erdogan changed the system from a parliamentary to a presidential system when he was prime minister at the beginning, he was the leader of the country. And then he made it. So had he kept it a parliamentary system, he would have won right now. And that would be the end of the matter, right? Absolutely. It didn't work. Didn't work this time. Let me ask you about this coalition, the headed by the Republican Party. What is their policy towards, what's their foreign policy in relation to Erdogan? In terms of moving towards Eurasia or back towards the West, would they be more oriented towards NATO in the West than Erdogan has been? Well, when I look at what they had already said, which they all gave some interviews to Western media, they said that they will help the expansion of NATO. They will work with NATO and Western Alliance. But this might be only rhetoric. This might be just politics because CHP is well known with its independent policies. So it was founded by Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. So they also have nationalistic perspective along with secularist perspective, but they also are Turkish nationalists. And when we look at Akşener, Melan Akşener, E-Party, they are also nationalist. We have Ahmet Davutoglu and Ahmet Davutoglu had some anti-Western sentiments as well. Ali Babacan is very pro-Western, liberal and democratic party leader. He is pro-liberal and pro-Western, and Harvard graduates. Well, we see that there is a power struggle on Turkey between the West and the East. We understand that. But it is not easy. It's not that easy to say that Turkey would just leave Russia and its relations with Euro-Asian countries and just turn itself to the West. It cannot happen. So they need to find a balance. And I'm sure that they would find a balance. So they wouldn't increase if the opposition would win the presidency, would they try to increase? They wouldn't try to increase more support for Ukraine, problems for Russia in the Black Sea, that kind of thing. They wouldn't want to take any risk because the Turkish economy is in a very bad situation right now. So they don't have that power. So the first thing that they would want to do is to actually base something on the Turkish economy, because the people are suffering. I understand that the Western countries might want Turkey to take a position, take a more aggressive position in Ukraine and use their military against Russia. I don't think that they would do that. And they would go on with a similar perspective. They will try to find a balance between Russia and the Western coalition, I guess. Okay, before we go on with foreign policy, you raised the economy. Was that the number one domestic issue or were there others? Yeah. And human rights violations also. That's an issue. Rights violations is a big issue. The media freedom is a big issue they would create. They would try to create democratic institutions again. There are thousands of people in prison. There are thousands of people who were illegally fired from the government position. So they have to do something about that. There are political prisoners in Turkey like Senat in Demirtas, the leader of the HDP, the Kurdish party. He is in prison. And there are some others in prison. So they have to do their best to change this undemocratic tendencies in the Turkish system. How many journalists are in prison now in Turkey? I think that more than some 250 journalists are still in prison. Yeah. So that was an issue in the campaign. That's quite interesting. Yeah, because they realized how important it is to have a free media because they didn't have, you know, in a free and independent media. This, for example, Anatolian agency is a state-owned agency. And everyone is paying to this institution. You know, we are all taxpayers. So, but they only give one perspective, which is the government perspective. And that's why the opposition is so upset about, you know, these tendencies in the media. So almost 99% of the entire media is controlled by Erdogan. And this is what they promise about it. So they want to change this environment, media environments, you know, the human rights violations. So the bureaucracies controls, you know, they are working as they are employees of Erdogan or the AKP government. So the government officials also should be loyal to only to the constitution, not to the parties or the leaderships. Right. Back to the economy for a minute. I remember that Erdogan came to power and was sustained for a long time on the strength of the so-called Anatolian tiger, a great upswing of the economy outside of Istanbul in the center in the east of the country. What's happened to that? Has that run out of steam, that economy, that economic boost that he had? So the corruption, I guess is the most important reason because, you know, in every whatever they are doing, the government is also taking percentage, you know, Erdogan government. And so they are all revealed right now. Nothing is a secret anymore. So there was a person who was a, who was coming from a very close circle of Erdogan. So he revealed everything about these things. And so the corruption is the main reason of the, you know, economic recession. And they used, you know, the Turkish financial assets for many black budget-related efforts. So back to foreign policy, Erdogan, what about Iran relations with Iran? Would it make a difference which party or which president Turkey had in this election? How would that be affected? I don't think that the relations between the upcoming, I mean, if the opposition would be in power, you know, after Erdogan. I don't know whether this is going to happen or not, but I don't think that they would change the relations between Turkey and Iran. As I said, you know, Ahmet Davutoglu is part of the government. So he was the prime minister when they had very good relations with Iran. So he's going to be the vice president. And also remember that Kalistar Ali is coming from a different sect, you know. So the Shiites and the Elawites or Alevis in Turkey have some sort of, you know, a relativity or some sort of, you know, affiliation. They are not the same. Our Alevis in Turkey, they are very secular, but we cannot deny that they have an historical past with Iranian Shiites theology. So that's why I wouldn't expect Kalistar Ali would reverse the relations between Iran and Turkey. And you can also guess that if the government would change, Kalistar Olu can change the relations with Syrian regime. So the Elawites in the south regime also have some sort of, you know, connection with the Elawites, the Alevis in Turkey. The difference is that the Elawites in Syria, they are speaking Arabic and they are ethnically Arabs. And ours is, you know, they are Turks, Turkish people. But as I said, they are theology. And the way that they view the world and Islam is very similar. So I wouldn't, I think it would be much better for Russia, you know, to see, you know, Kalistar Olu government in Turkey, because it would definitely positively affect the relations with the Syrian regime. On terms of Syria, but maybe not in terms of Ukraine. But it's interesting because I interviewed Kalistar Olu back in 2013 in Washington when he was visiting. And that interview he said, he was very critical of the other one, government's Syria policy. And openly, they were supporting extremists in Syria trying to overthrow Assad. But, you know, since China broke this extraordinary deal between Iran and Saudi Arabia, it's had a kind of seismic, in my view, effect all over the Middle East because the relations between Iran, sorry, between Iran and Saudi Arabia had an influence in almost every conflict in the region. And to bring those together has had, particularly in Yemen, but even in Lebanon or in Iraq, we might see change and Syria specifically. And Russia has played a big role in this diplomacy as well. So is it a bit of a humiliation? Because for Erdogan, because we see him kind of changing his Syria policy now, he's gone to maybe withdraw all the troops from inside Syria and the Arab League just readmitted Bashar al-Assad. Where is Erdogan now on Syria? And isn't this kind of this reversal, if he falls, if he comes through, is an economy humiliation for his previous? Yes, that's correct. That's correct. Some two weeks ago, I guess, Erdogan, in a TV interview, claimed that they, the Turkish intelligence eliminated the ISIS leader. But we haven't seen that this allegation was confirmed by some Western credible intelligence services. So we didn't learn, we didn't understand why he made this claim. But yeah, ISIS and El Nustral, the Turkish intelligence were affiliated in the past, so they had very positive communications in the past. And the Turkish government was also providing some ammunition and some weapons to them. And this was deteriorating relations with the Syrian regime. I think, as I said before, the opposition parties, I mean, a potential prospective government led by the opposition would be much trustworthy by a South regime and by a Russian government as well, along with the Western governments. Because what they would do would be visible and transparent, I guess. Okay, but the issue of charisma has come up here. I mean, whatever we think about him or what other his opponents think that he's acted in dictatorial ways, that he has so many people in prison, including, as you say, 250 journalists, he has apparently something because he's been in power for 20 years. So Calistro has got zero charisma. I have to say, as I said, I spent in his hotel room in Washington. And at that time, in that interview in 2013, there was a lot of talk about this Mustafa Saragul taking over the party, and he actually told me that he would be willing to step down as the leader if he thought that Mustafa Saragul would be a better, more charismatic. What happened to Mustafa Saragul? This is 10 years later. What's happened there? Well, Mustafa Saragul didn't have any charisma. He was a handsome man of a district in Istanbul. And he supported his lot, but he just supported Calistro. He actually did the right thing for this election. But when it comes to charisma, the charisma without democratic leadership is not something good for the societies because Hitler had charisma as well. And authoritarian charisma always polarizes the people, creates enemies, and authoritarian charismatic leadership with narcissistic personality disorder leads their country's destruction. This is what happened in Germany because the people couldn't see what is coming for them. So that's why they were delusions with Hitler's visions and many other things. We have seen a similar delusion in Turkey. The people were mesmerized by Erdogan's rhetoric claiming to resurrect the Caliphate and Ottoman Empire. There is a similarity between the German nation and the Turkish nation. They lost the First World War. They were allies. So when Ataturk came to power, he just tried the Turkish nation to forget that defeat. Erdogan tried to remind that defeat to the people and he just promised them to heal that wounds. And this is how the Turkish people were trapped by this rhetoric. And they supported him believing that one day they would have the Ottoman Empire and Caliphate back. But it was just a lie. It was just a lie. So right now, the Turkish nation is facing not to establish the Ottoman Empire, but they are facing whether they would survive. They would keep their country united or not. Because these kind of leaders like Hitler always separates the country or destroys their country. What happened in Germany? We didn't have the German Empire, but Germany was separated into two countries. That's quite interesting. What's happened to all of these grandiose plans of Erdogan to restore something like an Ottoman Empire? Now, he certainly has increased the influence of Turkey outside of the region in Africa in particular. He's gotten more involved. He's certainly, what has he achieved with Central Asian, Turkic speaking republics? But how would you assess in 20 years the entire career of Erdogan? I want to ask you, particularly his farm policy, but how would you look back from 2003 when he became prime minister? Till now, how would you describe his what he set out to do and what he's achieved? These are his final times. These are his final times. First, he's not good. His health is not good. He has really serious health issues. This is the first thing. He's old and he sometimes struggles to walk. Then the Turkish people actually, they decided to quit him. I mean, don't take the election, don't take this election results very seriously. Okay, even though it looks that he won, actually, he did not. He lost it. He couldn't make it in the first round, even though let's assume that the results were correct, but he didn't make it. He couldn't make it. So he already realizes that he is losing. And just it would affect his narcissistic personality as well. This is the one thing. The second thing is that the people are going to be more poor during the time, and it's not going to be sustainable for Erdogan to pursue his expansionist policies in the region. For example, they were competing with United Arab Emirates in Libya. They were representing different political camps in Libya. They were fighting. They had proxy wars in Libya. But when the Moab leader, Sedat Peket, moved to Dubai and started to make some revelations against Erdogan government, Erdogan had to go to United Arab Emirates and had to deal with them. And they started to sell drones to the United Arab Emirates government. And they started to use these drones in Libya against Erdogan's proxies. So you know how they lost their interest in Libya just for one man, just because of one man who was talking against Erdogan. So it means that he's a pragmatist. He can easily leave the country's donations interest when it bothers him. So I don't think that from now on Turkey would have expansionist policies because eventually they will lose. Eventually they will lose. And this Ottoman Empire rhetoric and the resurrecting the Caliphate, they were just rhetoric. They were not real. So what do you think happens in the runoff? I don't any predictions? Well, it depends on how the opposition would take it seriously this time. They would take some risks. It's not easy to challenge estates because it's a state establishment. If some circles in the state establishment would realize that they will not be able to go on with Erdogan, they might want to take sides with the opposition. So right now we will see. I'm not that sure what would happen. So remember, for example, there were some bureaucrats in Germany during the Hitler's time. They tried to stop him, but they couldn't. Right now the Turkish nation is trying with democratic means to stop Erdogan, but they also need some support from the bureaucracy. If they would find that bureaucracy, I know that a lot of documents are being revealed by the bureaucracy to help the opposition, but it's not enough. At the end of the day, the opposition would see where the military and the intelligence stands. Yes. You referred to Hitler a few times. Did Erdogan once make some sympathetic statement about Erdogan? That's correct. He did. Do you remember exactly what he said? I don't remember exactly what he said, but once he did. And remember that the sources, some of the Islamist sources about anti-Semitism come from the Nazism sources and right-wing extremist sources. So there's also that kind of affiliation. I need to ask you the Fethullah Gulen movement. Many people have been fired or jailed after Erdogan blamed them for the coup back in 2016. What role has any has that issue, the issue of the Gulen movement played in this election? Is it important anymore like it was? They don't have any power. They are influential in social media because the people in Turkey are not capable of getting the real news from the Turkish sources. So they are looking to get sources from different countries, the international, the journalists in exile. This is one of the things. I mean, they have their own institutions in the Western countries, but they don't have any power to have any influence in the Turkish elections. Right. Now, if Erdogan wins and he's president, some commentators are speculating that there could be a lot of protests like him. You said before that the opposition doesn't want to risk people's lives by doing that. Could they stop them? And could there be any Western influence pushing those elections in a so-called color revolution? Is that a possibility if Erdogan wins? If Erdogan wins, I don't think. I mean, if they would be convinced that Erdogan wins, it's fraught and manipulation. If they would have seen the accurate documents claiming or indicating that actually opposition won, they can try and go to the streets. Because it happened in the past during the Gezi in 2014 or 2013 or 2014. They tried and they can try again. Yeah. Okay. My last question, and I thank you again for your time, Erdogan, is in the United States, every election is called the most important pivotal election history. So it becomes a little tiresome because they can't all be the most important election in history. Let me ask you about this Turkish election. How pivotal is this election to the future of Turkey? I mean, you're talking about the election on May 14th. May 28th. Yeah. It is. It's a milestone in the Turkish political history because it's going to determine whether Turkey is going to be a fully totalitarian regime or a new Turkey that would take some steps to heal itself because it's not going to be so easy. They will need years and years to heal this country. It's going to take a lot of time. Thank you, Erdogan Vatundesh, for your time. You're welcome. About the Turkish political situation. No problem. Thank you so much. For CNN Live, this is Joe Laurier. Until next time, goodbye. If you are a consumer of independent news and the first place you should be going to is Consolidating News, and please do try to support them when you can. It doesn't have its articles behind a paywall. It's free for everyone. 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