 I'm James Milan, welcome to this special episode of Talk of the Town. I am joined first of all by the DEI, that's Diversity, Equity and Inclusion, the DEI director for the town, Gillian Harvey, who you are all familiar with I'm sure, and also Margaret Creedle-Thomas, who is the DEI director for our Arlington Public Schools. You're probably familiar with that because Margaret has her own show, so to speak here at ACMI. But to be first of all really psyched to have you guys here, thank you very much for taking the time. Thank you for having us. Thank you for having us. We always like to talk to you. Yeah. And you know I'm very happy to speak to you guys as well. And Smile's all around, which is great and real. However I also just want to say right away, I'm interested in looking at this last year more or less, especially because Margaret, you've just finished your first full year at the schools, just this last year in your realm, in the realm of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion in town and in the schools. And I know that the news is not all good and the experience is not all easy and light and roses by any means. And I'm interested in actually digging down a little bit on those things. So I hope that we can have a really kind of a conversation that's very much straight talk about progress made, hopefully for sure, and good things happening. But also give people a real sense of a little bit what you guys are up against in a sense. Or at least what is composed of that plate that gets set in front of you every day. So I'd like, first of all, to start on that theme in a sense, I'd like to mention, okay, we're speaking in the first week of August, calendar just turned from July to August. Does summer have any meaning in your guys' work that's different from other times of the year, like it is for a lot of people, where they get to relax a little bit more, etc.? I think summer for me is there's a little bit of slow pace and there's planning because you got to plan for what's coming. So like Jill and I have already been talking about, let's put the calendar together for the year, like where are we going to do PD together? What are some of the events that are happening in a town and happening in schools? I'm just going to jump in PD, professional development. And so we've, I think we've met like two or three times already in the summer. So it's like this pace might seem different and the work still has to get done because you have to prepare for when people do enter, really enter back. You know, you have community members that are on vacation. And so summer's here, so people are away, but people are about to come back and want to hit the ground running. I remember as a teacher, my own years as a teacher that that turning of the page, as I was saying, to August, all of a sudden you feel like closing, that your summer closing in on you, right? Sorry, go ahead, Jill. Yeah, I know, same. Summer's gone, Blake and I. But for me, I say the last couple of years I keep saying, okay, July, like I'm going to regroup, I'm going to put slow down, put everything in place. And then it's August and I'm like, that didn't happen because nothing slowed down for me. People are on vacation, but for some reason, other things just pop up and it just continues to go. So I'm really going to try in the next couple of weeks to not do what I've been doing and actually slow down and do a lot of that planning. And it's going to be a little different because I now have some help in the division, which is great. So I'm hoping that. Yeah, talk about that just a little bit. Yeah, so the DEI division has a new outreach and engagement coordinator. Teresa's been with us for just about a month and a half now, so summer. But I've already seen a difference in just being able to do more and engage with the community more, even though it's summer and it's quieter. But we're still, you know, working with the folks who are here and we're hopefully going to be hiring an ADA coordinator too. And that, again, will really help me balance my time and working with the Disability Commission and working with the Townside to make sure things are moving along because none of that stops, even though it's summer. But getting some more hands to help because it's going to make a difference. So I'm hoping August will be more of that planning. But I feel like it's about to fly by too. Yeah, definitely something you and I have talked about over the months as you've been awaiting this form of capillary, I guess, coming. Glad to know that Teresa's in place and I'm sure we'll be talking in DEI updates in the future about her work. But Margaret, let me ask you to just kind of address, let's remind people just for a second before we dig in a little bit more into the weeds of your specific work in town. Let's remind everybody why you guys are here, in a sense, here in town doing the work that you're doing. What is DEI all about? And what are the challenges that are kind of universal for Arlington, here in Arlington for you guys, everywhere else for the people who are working there, and also common between the two of your jobs? You want to take that and I can... It doesn't matter to me. No, because I think I start with the unrest that started to happen, the racial unrest that started to happen and I feel as though institutions, whether you were an educational institution or a corporation, were really looking for... Or a town. Or a town, they were looking for DEI directors to help them to navigate whatever those inequities that were happening in those institutions and organizations because that racial and civil unrest was seeping in, was now coming into those institutions because what people were facing, you didn't know if it was a family member that an incident happened to. So I feel like that's where, from me, that's where it started and that now institutions are looking at how do we do belonging? How do we make people feel like they belong part of our organization in our community? How do we diversify? How do we value different identities and intersectionalities that we have? And then the equity of all of that, I feel like it's all encompassing of what we do. And it's really big and it's really a magnitude. And I don't think it's just one person's job. I think it's all of our jobs to do. Yeah, agreed with everything. But I know for me, for the town that the town had made some steps to do equity work and hired me to be another player in helping coordinate that, I think exactly like 2020 was a wild time. So with that, a lot of immediate needs just surfaced. And so I feel like I'm just now getting out of that reactionary cycle and starting to put those plans in place and really see the vision that I came into my role with. But it's taken me two years to now be able to make some of those steps. But I think with Arlington, the demographics are changing. And if we're really trying to talk the talk and we say we value equity, we value diversity, we want people to feel like they belong here, things need to change because we know that folks don't feel like they belong here. And with this work in particular, at least I know municipal side, I think town, it's a little, I mean, schools, it's a little different. But these types of roles have existed in the private sector and in nonprofits before and they function differently. Government is a whole different story because you've got a lot of red tape and you have to follow rules and you can't just do what you know is needed. There's a process to that. And with the EI work as well, there's no guidelines. There's no state level department. So we're all in the process of figuring it out, but working together to do so and really working with our leadership because if there's not that shared vision between the individual who's hired to help and the folks who have the power to really implement, then it's not going to work. And like you said, Margaret, this isn't just one person's responsibility. It's explaining to the community at large that if you're saying you want these things, everyone plays a part in how to take ownership over that. So I think that's the stage I feel like I'm starting to step into. Some of the plans that we have on the town side, and I think for you starting in the last, you know, you've been in your position about a year. And I think the steps you've taken, really taking the time to listen and observe and soak in what's going on, even though you've been with the town for a long time in the school district, it's different to be able to have that role and to now see what needs to happen to make some of those changes. Yeah. I know we were talking about this earlier. As I had started to do listening sessions, I really came to the conclusion that having an equity audit done would help us to really understand what our assets were and what our obstructions or barriers were. And that through that audit, we can come to what would those recommendations and suggestions would be. And and for me, that now gives me kind of like the seeds I need to know how to build that roadmap and starting to really. And not to say we're starting because like Joe said, we have been doing a lot of great things in this in the school. It's it also though helps to have that roadmap to really understand what those barriers are and how do we uproot them and how do we plant new things that will help to move the district in the place where it needs to be and where it wants to go. Right. So we just we have a new vision and mission statement, which is amazing because to me, that vision and mission statement, somebody said to me, aren't you going to do a DEI mission statement? I'm like, I don't need to because it's in the vision and mission statement. Like it's there. It's it's living there. And all I need to do is like go back to that vision and mission statement. It's there. And that really is that feels really good because I sometimes when you have separate vision and mission statements in one organization to me, that feels like it's silo work. And to note for me to be able to say no, our vision and mission statement is what DEI. It's one thing. Right. Exactly. That that sounds really good. A couple of things I just want to make sure viewers understand equity audit. Right. You just you just completed that something I've talked with you about on a number of occasions can either one of you just briefly describe what is what an equity audit is. So an equity audit is where you could get consultants who are experts in that field to look at your organization, they might ask for different data set points. You would actually put together the scope of work that you want them to look at. And then they actually for those data set points in and also they would conduct what we call empathy interviews to kind of bring all of that information together and synthesize it for you. And then really give you a great a greater picture of what is happening in your organization. And then from there can make the rapid recommendations for you to go forward. Yeah. And where the town on the townside, I know school's wrapping years up. We started ours, I think end of May, June, started June in time flying. So who really knows? But we have been in the data collection stage because there's, you know, in realizing there's a lot of data we don't have. And so that in itself is, you know, a flag that we're not doing some things right, because if we're not even collecting information to begin with, then how are we ever going to know what's wrong or how are we going to look at it? So we're in that stage right now and we'll be moving through the process starting to do community engagement, focus groups. The town is focusing on three areas that ultimately the consultants we're working with, they have kind of a reverse engineered approach that the three areas we're looking at will help us really take a much larger picture at the town as a whole. So we were looking at civic participation and voting, housing inequality and town workforce participation. So who is making up our employees and what's their representation is reflective of the community and the community needs. So we're we're diving. We're going to be starting to dive into some of the tough stuff soon. So I'm excited for that. Yeah, yeah, important. I mean, vital. So sounds like an audit, basically, in this in this area is both a combination of assembling and possibly analyzing the numbers, but then also including a whole element, which is much more of a human element, as you were saying, empathy interviews and things like that, where you're you're actually speaking to focus groups or individuals or whatever to get, again, a fuller picture of how not only what the numbers are, as you said, but also how it feels, how it feels to be in, you know, in a place where you are only, you know, only five percent of the workforce looks like you or goes home to the same place you do or something like that. Yeah, the consultants that we hired long view education they did it like a laboratory participation. So we had stakeholders sit on. There were like seven subgroups that they sat on and they looked at that data. So we had teachers and we had family members and we had administrators like looking at that data. And so and and I really appreciated that because it wasn't just getting a company in just to look at the data. And then they are telling us it was like it was a group effort of all of us just sitting and really kind of going through it. And then what I appreciate about that is that that I can still continue to call on some of those stakeholders to maybe sit on other committees that have, you know, have been through the equity audit. And that's, you know, that would be the next phase of what are the recommendations and how are we going to implement some of these recommendations and that we can use some of those stakeholders to help us to figure out how to do that. Right. Yeah, that sounds very that sounds great because it sounds like it's a it's a melding, a synthesis of the numbers and the people that you're, you know, otherwise doing your best to dig into. And here you have them kind of joining together and the people in real time for again, representing different constituencies, vital constituencies within the whole kind of absorbing first of all those numbers and then figuring out again what to do or helping to figure out what to do going forward. So let's talk about that for a second. What to do going forward, which I know so for you, Margaret, you had to again, spend a certain amount of time. I remember talking to you at the, you know, about a year ago when you were about to embark on this and you knew that you were going to have to do a lot of listening. You were going to have to just kind of figure the things out that you hadn't already had in your experience here in Arlington because it was not new to you as Jill alluded to before. But basically you were going to be like taking a lot in, it sounds like. I don't know whether a year is enough for that or whatever, but I would imagine there's a real impulse for you to actually start to see what you can do with what you've learned. But just bring us up to date with where you're at. And, you know, if you want to talk to us a little bit about this first year, I mean, I know it couldn't have been easy. No, I mean, I think I feel like any new position, right, it's like trying to get your sea legs, especially when you don't have a playbook. Yeah, can I just jump in? I want to say earlier, you guys mentioned about DEI and both of you are excellent representatives of this, but you were talking about how you're part of a support group of other people working in DEI and other schools and that nobody's got more than five years of experience in that group. And so it really is. You guys are trying to make this up as you not make it up, but trying to devise a way to move forward with this without having a playbook, but leaving one, I assume, or making one as you're going so that you can, so that people coming behind you can benefit from that. Yeah, I mean, I think the first year I've learned a lot. Having that DEI JAG group, it's been really beneficial because, like, I don't have to reinvent the wheel with some resources. I can email and say, hey, I'm thinking about affinity groups, how did you do it? And what I appreciate is that everybody is willing to share their resources of whatever they have. And so that was very helpful. The first year was, you know, it was really about listening. I think, for me, having that social work background, it was somewhat hard sometimes to listen to the experiences in that there was nothing I could do at the moment. In regards to that experience, I think one of the things I'm learning is that I want to be able now to listen to somebody's story and feel like I can say, this is where we're working on that, Joe. And not just have someone just tell me their story, but I can now feel like to say, I know we're working on this and I know we're doing that because when somebody has to tell their story again, that emotion comes back. And I realized that I don't want to traumatize somebody again because I'm trying to get the information. So now I think I'm at a point where I'm like, I have enough information. What does what does this look like to make sure that stakeholders feel like they belong in Arlington? Stakeholders feel like they have their value, that their identity is accepted in Arlington. And so I think I'm at that stage. And also I'm also understanding that this work is not a quick work. So you don't want to do anything so quickly because you still can hurt people. So you want to make sure that you're pacing it in a way that the foundation is strong of what you're building. I really appreciate that Jill has been a support for me that she had been in a role more than a year ahead of me. And although we've done some work together, it was like now we can really work together based on that she's on the town side and I'm on the school side. Like even yesterday, meeting with the chief of police yesterday, that was a, you know, I think both of us walked away feeling like that was a great conversation. We're going to be able to partner now and do some work with the school and the community, which is really important. Yeah, you know, I think a subtext of what I was just hearing you talking about, which is, you know, how much you it's difficult for you to hear people's stories and not be able to respond with anything and how much you're looking forward to being able to say, yeah, we're going to we've got this in place or that. And I know you're doing exactly the same kind of thing. The subtext is the stories you're hearing are pain, our stories of pain. And so and you said before, Jill, a while ago in our talk today, you said, frankly, there are people in town who don't feel like they belong or who don't feel comfortable. At, you know, I know you guys live with this every day. Like this is your work every day. But but share some of what, like, let's talk bluntly. I mean, what what's what's what are people up against here because Arlington likes to think of itself a certain way. Yeah, I think you have to believe someone's story when I tell you. I think you have to believe when somebody says they've had a microaggression against them or, you know, discrimination or they've been stereotyped. I think you have to like that's where I'm landing on. You have to believe somebody's story and in sometimes people's intentions are, you know, they might not have met, right? And they if you impacted somebody, I feel like that's where I'm landing. You just have to believe I have to believe Jill's story because that's her lived experience that, you know, there's like you said, there's feelings that come along with that. And if I minimize that, the trust between me and Jill or it's going to get eroded. And so what I'm learning is that once Jill tells me her story, that's her story. And I have to now understand or figure out and say to Jill, like, how do I support you? What does this look like? You know, and I think that was some of the valuable lessons that I'm walking away from. Yeah. Oh, sorry. You said it. I think, you know, folks in town have the best of intentions and want to do the work. But I think there needs to be more listening. And listening to listen, not listen to react, not listen to solve, not listen to fix, but just listening. Because once you're listening, you're validating people's experiences. And if you're letting that kind of settle in and marinate, you know, those folks who are sharing can also help lead you to the solutions. It's not a here, I'm telling you this, go fix it. It's a you need to start to work together and allow for more space to for people to come to the table, but you need to build that trust first. You can't just say, I mean, even right now with the with the audit, we're in this trust building phase with community members that we know we don't hear from. Why don't we hear from them? There's a reason. So you can't just say, oh, we want me to be a part of this focus group so we can get your feelings and then send you on your way. Like, you need to be brought into this process. You need to feel like you're not just being tokenized to check the box that we got your concerns and you're going to be out the door, but that you're a part of building the change. And we have a lot of folks in town again who have the best of intentions, but I think the practices need to shift a little bit. And there just needs to be more space for different voices at the table. Do you think that the fact that, as you've said a couple of times, that people in this town have the best of intentions, do you think that that there's just a kind of obliviousness that can come in because of lack of contact, just of the fact that you people don't interact enough with each other or with people who are different, whose background, whose living situation, whose everything, whose sexual orientation, whatever it is, is different from theirs, that there's just not enough of that kind of natural interaction. I mean, I know there are a lot of factors, right? But that do you think, when you say people have the best intention in town, does it feel to you like, yeah, they do as a bunch of, I'm going to say it like a bunch of white liberal people who just deal with other white liberal people. Yeah. Yeah, I would say, I mean, Arlington, for me, it's a very well educated and the community members, again, people want and feel that they're doing the right thing and it is liberal and we have that mindset, but also being able to reckon with that things aren't perfect here. Your policies, our practices, everything we do, we do it, we all do it, is rooted in white supremacy culture. So it's like you have to be conscious of that. And I'm not talking about like out here, you know, waving Nazi flags, all that. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about racism baked into all of our systems. But that includes simple things like our, you know, parking restrictions. Like if we take a really hard look at that, you're going to realize why we have certain things in place and they've been functioning as parking restrictions, like residential parking restrictions or if you look at that, you know, why don't we want overnight parking? Why? Like ask the questions, go a little bit deeper. And things go back to the way our neighborhoods are shaped and who's here and who belongs here. And there's just that sense of, you know, you need to ask hard questions to yourself, to your friends, to your family, because it might seem like you're ready to do the work. But until you're asking yourself those hard questions, you're not. Well, I think what she's getting at is that this work means that there's you're going to have to give up something. If you have privilege, you have to give up something that all of us can sit at the table. So if all of us doesn't, if all of us do not fit at this table, we have to erect the table in a way that all of us do. That means I might lose maybe even where I sit. Maybe, you know, after a while, we might be like, Morgan, you need to sit over there. I can't get fixated that I just want to sit here. I have to be able to be like, OK, yeah, if I sit over there, then that means that Jill can be added to the table. And I think that's the piece that people will have to work on of. And it's not so much what you're losing. What are you gaining? So if I change where I sit and I'm sitting over there, I gain that Jill's voice is now at the table and now has been elevated. That's that's, I think, another way to look at it is like, what do you get perspective because you're in a new seat? So you're also seeing things differently. And I say it all the time, our roles, equity, work, committing to it, it's not to maintain the status quo. You know, it's we know there's a problem. So you just need to fix it. You know, simple enough, right? Simple enough, you know, what you just said and what you just said reminded me of a question that I had earlier and I decided to table it, but I'm bringing it back. Bring it back to the table. And that is the fact that you guys are here in Arlington doing the work that you're doing. You already well described the kind of circumstances and the circumstances of the last few years and the kind of the racial racial tensions coming to a boil or at least being very visible and palpable to everybody, et cetera. So do you feel like, do you think that the reaction of the town or the schools in saying, let's get ourselves, let's let's let's do something about this and let's get ourselves a couple of DEI directors at least to begin with, did that come from fear? Or did it come from something more promising than that? Do you, you know? I don't, I mean, on the schools, I don't think it came from fear. I think it came from, this is something we need. I, for me, I think of if I had to do this all over again, I would basically say like, I would say that DEI directors should not step in a role by themselves. There needs to be a department. And I have to say that like, even if it's two other people, there just needs to be in a department that that director steps into because the work is really vast of what you have to do, right? And one, one, it's not just one person. And so it's also educating people to be like, oh, we have a DEI director, so let me just reach out to Mark. Like I've been meeting with people where I'm like, okay, yeah, right. Like, I'm like, okay, I don't think that's me. And you do listen. So you listen because you're like, oh, let me get the lay of what's happening. And then, and then it's like, well, it sounds like you should also bring in these people, and you should talk to these people. So it's like, you're maneuvering the person in another direction. And what I'm realizing is that certain people felt like, there are DEI directors, everything's solved. Anything, DEI, anti-racism, whatever. It'll end up on your desk and you'll take care of it. And then we've had to be like, no, no. Right? And sometimes, you know, Jill and I laugh because I'd be like, no, you should talk to Jill because that's community or she'll get school stuff. Right. Because like you said, people have the best of intentions but they don't, they're not clear on your guy's jobs, the support that you need. And I'd like to, I'd also like to talk about that in a minute. But yeah, again, it's not because anybody is, I don't know, thinking bad or small thoughts. It's just that they're not really thinking. It's just like they're not listening. Again, that's my tiny, our tiny little piece here at ACMI today is a little bit about what you're talking about. Asking you guys in to listen a little bit and get a sense of what, again, it feels like from the work that you're doing, I think everybody would love to hear you guys say, ah, actually, you know, we took care of this and we have that program. And you know, that's not the reality of the situation here. And it seems important to face that reality, to acknowledge it in order to be able to like actually make forward progress here. I mean, when I was talking to you about my garden analogy, you know. This was before we went on a camera tour. When I was, when we were talking before we started, you know, the cameras rolled, I was talking to you about, I've been using a garden analogy. If I was really to go into a garden, I would not be wearing this dress. I would be wearing my overalls to have on my boots. I'll have on gloves. Like you have to dress also differently, right? Because I know that I'm gonna get dirty because I'm now, like I said, I'm like a cultivator. I'm assessing the soil. I'm saying that that does not grow well over there with that. That needs to be moved over here. And that's where we get the, don't move my roses, right? And I'm saying, but your roses are gonna really grow even fuller if we like uprooted them and planted them over here, right? And so it's like, it's all of, that's what we do. Plus they hired you to be the gardener. Yeah, yeah. Right. And now you're telling them, well, this is what we need to do. But then that's when you find out what they hired you to do was not give them bad news or not tell them the stuff that, you know, they have to give up, like you said. I think people, I feel personally, like I am not being honest with either of you or anybody doing this kind of work. If I'm not willing to give something up as a white man, if I'm not willing to move to a smaller part of the table or whatever it is that is a good analogy. If I'm not willing to pay more money, if I'm not willing to get less money for my house or whatever it is, or have more people on the street in front, you know, all around me, you know, these are the tiny little things that I can do. But I do feel like I'm so glad that you guys have kind of named it as it is, that somebody has to, we have to, we, those who have much and have had things set up for us for a long time, we've got to be willing to give things up. And I think putting you guys in the position of reminding us of that kind of collectively, that's tough. Yeah. Yeah. It is. Yeah. It is. I think that's when you find out like, oh, you really don't want us into this work, right? You just want us like, oh, okay, you didn't want that. And I mean, for example, and I think we talked about this last fall, like working on the redistricting project, that was a big reminder that, you know, things, I've been welcomed, people support my work, but then this is- Then it push comes to shove, right? When it comes to- This is a change. And it was not, folks weren't ready. When are you going to be ready? You just got to trust the process. I mean, and nothing's permanent. I mean, we know that if the last few months I haven't shown us that. Things that are laws are not permanent. Like anything can change, but you need to just be okay with taking a few steps forward. It might mean some steps back at some point. Usually that's how it goes, but you just got to try. And trust the folks who have been hired. I think that's also, I was discussing this with someone and I don't remember who, but I feel like it was this week. Just, you know, the town, the schools, I'm really impressed with our employees. Say that's part of the reason I never left. It's really the people I work with. Everyone's commitment and just desire to do their best and make the right changes, but we're also responsive to community members. And so sometimes we're hired because we are knowledgeable and we can do the job and do the things, but then we're met with that resistance and you have to deal with that or work with that. But I have full faith in everyone who works in those towns competence to make the right changes. It's just a matter of also bringing community members along with us and really making sure folks understand why we're doing it. And that, again, that they're not losing something. Ultimately, we're all gaining. And I think about, I mean, right now I'm the ADA coordinator, hopefully hiring soon. But, you know, looking at simple things like curb cuts. The intention is for people who have disabilities to have an easier time as ad box, but we all take advantage of that. Strollers. If you're just jogging, if your knee hurts, anything. Bikes, anything. So for everybody, right? For everyone. And that's where I think we're all at. Like we understand we have to design from the margins and take that bigger view versus what we have now, which is, again, everything has been functioning as intended. All of our policies, all of our systems were intended to have that power and balance. And there would always be some type of oppression happening. So we need to undo that. It's not gonna happen overnight. It's not gonna happen in two years, five years, 200 years, maybe, I don't know. It's a lot of work, but you need to just be able to say, yes, let's do it. And let's talk about that. I said, it's tough. And you guys went, yeah. Right? Because, I mean, that's what we're talking about. It is. So support, how are you guys feeling? Where do you get it from? How much of it comes from? I assume it's helpful for you, what you just said, that you really have a sense of confidence that the employees of the town are competent to and open to doing some work, real work in this area. So that must be helpful. But where do you guys get the support that you obviously is essential for you to keep going? Yeah, I mean, I think it's important that, you know, my Dr. Holman, my superintendent supports this work and me. I'm part of the DEI JAG group that I was telling Jabalike that we meet once a month. That has been a tremendous support. And that I have a coach mentor also that has been a thought partner for me. It's also, you know. And that's structured into your role? Like that's part of the, like, part of your budget, I guess. Yes, it's part of my budget. That's great, that's excellent. I thought it was just my first year. I thought it was just really important that I had somebody, you know, although we might have expertise, it's, I also know, I don't still know everything and that it's really important for me to know that I do need that person to kind of coach me or guide me through, you know, any problems of practice that I have and that even if I have blind spots, at least that person can be like, okay, Margaret, you didn't look at it from this point of view. And that the person that I have, you know, has been in these roles, has been a former MECCLE director, has been a DEI director and now is doing consultation. And so that was really important. You know, Jill is a support for me. And then I have, you know, my friends and my family that are also my support systems because I have to know that when I get in my car to go home, I ain't gonna leave this here and I need to just be home. And that's a support because that's how you get rejuvenated again to want to kind of come back to work. Yeah. I would say similar. You're my support. But that's problematic in and of itself, simply obviously because we've been talking. I mean, you guys have very, very full plates and not that, I mean, a lot of it is quite draining. And so for you also then to have to be there for each other because nobody else can understand, you know, can understand the, you know, anyway. I'd say similar to Margaret's kind of web of support. You know, for me, it's absolutely like town leadership. The folks that I've been working with are town manager, you know, Adam Lash, but Sandy, I've had a great relationship with Sandy over the last couple of years as well. My supervisor, HR, Chief Larrity, like those individuals, I know I can go to no matter what. I'd say the commissions I work with, you know, often I work very closely all the time with the chairs and that's rotating yearly. So I've been able to build relationships and just folks who have dealt with some of the challenges, things that come at me, come at them as well. So being able to share those experiences with them. A year and a half ago, I co-founded kind of the DEI municipal side for folks who have a job like title like mine. And that's been absolutely like just a game changer. You know, we meet twice a month, but we have like a Slack channel, we, everyone has each other's phone numbers. There's just to be able to talk about things that other folks have no idea. No idea what you're dealing with. In particularly, I think most folks in these roles are also people of color. And that's just usually an added layer because you're also usually one of not many in the spaces you're in. And that's a different aspect of the job because it's also personal. You say you go home and you, you know, come back rejuvenated. Half the time I'm still doing the work at home and it's not rejuvenating because I, it's personal. I turn on the TV and the news is something terrible and you have to show up the next day. And sometimes folks. I don't do, I'm not turning on, I don't turn on the news. Sometimes I don't. Okay, well I like to watch Meal of Fortune and Jeopardy and usually the news is on first so I have to catch the end of it. I wait for Twitter. See, I don't even use Twitter. I wait for Twitter to blow up, but yeah. But let's talk about, you know, not just support systems that you may find around you, or web, like you said, but this is something that has been a theme of conversations I've had with you in the past, Jill. What are your personal practices as well? I mean, we've talked, we talk, you know, there's a lot of talk always about self-help. A lot of talk about self-help a lot of the time. But there, first of all, you need to get the support of your supervisors and employers and peers, et cetera, for the things that you do for self-help. But what are those in your guys' particular cases? What are the things that you're, you know, the practices that you have that really help in these? So, I'd say the practices, for me, I know it's a struggle, oops, my mic, sorry. I know it's a struggle to keep it routine. That, for me, it looks like yoga, meditation, taking a break during the day to just go outside and stand up, working out. But when things start to get crazy, that goes away, yeah. I mean, for me, I recognize I have a bad cycle. Every third week of the month, it's super busy. I have a lot of late night meetings and it's gone. And I have to reset and I'm like, okay, how do I break this? But now that I now have more support within the division, I'm seeing that start to break, but that's been a few years, like that's not great. But it's pushing yourself to do it, like to not answer that email that came in at 11 o'clock at night, because the world's on a fire, you'll be okay. Yeah, and people should not be emailing you at 11 o'clock at night, let's just say that. I mean, sometimes they get them from me because I'm like, I have time to actually respond. Okay, fair enough. But still, it's like knowing how to shut off and it takes practice. Oh, I learned that this year. Yeah, I learned it and then I unlearn it. I know, I put on my silence notifications now after a certain time, because it's easy because you can still have certain people that can get through, right? Right, you get to choose who can contact, who can access you. And that started to be important for me because I needed a break. And when I was home, I needed to be home. And I had never done that before. And I was like, oh, I'm gonna put my silence notifications on. That was just really important for me. I needed a mental rest. I needed the physical rest. I miss exercising. I used to do boxing. I missed it. The meetings that you have, I think that's the other thing that people do not understand. The meetings that you're to be asked to go to, and it's like you said, somebody's like, well, why don't you work out in the morning? I'm like, I'm right. Because I slept for four hours. I don't have energy. And the thing is, when I work out, it's like, I wanna take a shower and go to bed. So that doesn't work for me. I'm kinda thinking where. And you can't just change the way, the things that work for you and your bio-rhythms, et cetera, because it would be more convenient. So I'm missing boxing. So boxing was helping with that, kind of like I had a stressful day. It was a real tough day. And I could hit a bag and get it out. And I haven't been able to go for the last two years. So it's that the other thing is that I've also learned that I need to eat properly. And that I knew what my triggers were after a while. So my peers at school was like, oh, Margaret's brought out the sweetest fishes. Because now I'm stressed. And now it's like, that sweetest fish just really just tastes good in my mouth. And diet Pepsi, and I started drinking a lot of diet Pepsi. And I was just like, okay. This is a sign, right? This is a sign that I need to kind of pull back. Sundays are really sacred for me. That's the day that I go to church. That's the day I spend with my family. That's the day that I can have lunch with them. That's the day I can get a little bit of a nap in. Just kind of, that's that group day for me that I can then be like, okay, maybe around five o'clock, I'll think about opening up my laptop. And then looking at an email. So right, so it's Sunday day, but even Sunday, sacred Sunday is gonna, you're gonna have to look at things. Sunday's scary. I'm not gonna have to sneak in. No, and I think Joe said it best. It's like, you're not constantly off. You have to be intentional about being off. And she said it is, and I had to say that to myself, is anything on fire? Is anybody bleeding? Is anybody hurt? No, that can wait until tomorrow. Yeah, so I know that there are a lot of people who might be listening to this, who can relate to that. But I do think it's important because there are a lot of other people who do get to leave work every day and they just get to leave. And however hard it is that they work during those hours, on their way home, they're not still thinking about everything. They're not carrying it with them. They're not gonna be accessed at eight, nine, 10, at night, et cetera. So I just, again, in terms of giving people a more accurate idea of what it is like to take on TGI work in this town and others, I think that's, and obviously I support and salute you both for developing and recognize the importance of you developing ways to leave work at work in some way, or at least to leave work mentally, emotionally, psychically, spiritually, actually leave work for some period of time every week. But I bet it's, I bet it's, it just doesn't happen as often as is healthy for. All right, well, I, this was originally intended to be a half an hour conversation. I feel fine, personally, about the fact that we blew right through that and we will have spoken for almost an hour by the time that we're done, because I really will just reiterate that though I get to speak to each of you periodically throughout the year, and though I'm generally aware of the work that you're doing, and the fact that all of us benefit from the work of a few, means that we should at the very least understand what some of what the cost is to those few, as well as figuring out ways to support you guys in your work. So I will just say for me personally, I will always want to do what I can to let you know how much I appreciate the work that you guys do. Seriously, I wanna live in a town where we're further along than we are. And I'm relying on you guys. And so are a lot of other people. So I wanna just kind of get that out there and say that I'd love to also do this each year, at least once a year, just to kind of check in with you guys, okay, how do things look compared to, because a lot of the time when I'm talking to you during the normal course of the year, we're doing updates or whatever. We're talking about the events that are coming up, the things that have happened, et cetera. We don't have time really to talk about your work as work as we have today. So again, I wanna thank you both for taking that time and hope that you've enjoyed the conversation. As I have. Oh yeah, always. Yeah, it was always a good conversation. All right, any parting words for our audience? Just one thing that I think you asked me what people can do to support us. I think the one thing I'm thinking about is really ask us how we're doing. And mean it. And mean it, like ask us how we are doing. And if there's anything that that person can do, right? And if we just say, no, we're good, but really ask, right? I think that would be like the one helpful thing. Right, know that you're not, you may be doing your job by yourself, but hopefully you'll feel a little less alone in doing so if you have people who are coming, if it's genuine coming from that place, I'm sure. Anything that you would like to remind people of, Jill? Be patient. This work is the marathon, not a spring. And especially in this arena, four down for schools, it takes time. And I said it earlier, there's a lot of undoing and that it takes time. So don't think that we're twiddling our thumbs because you've asked for something or we've said we're committing to this. And- You don't see the immediate. You don't see the immediate, yeah. It's been, I don't know if you get it, but I get the complaints, I get the you're not doing that, right, there's that. But then it's also those random voice mails that I know I don't check often, sorry everyone. Or those emails or a letter in the mail that's just a thank you. That for people I have never heard from, not the frequent flyers that I hear from once a week, but someone who I've never encountered, never met, but they saw a program or they participated in something and it was helpful. So like those gentle reminders are really great because it is long, it's hard, and we don't wanna burn out. Yeah. A little appreciation at the very least goes a long way, I'm sure. I will say just one thing back to you guys. You just said to the audience, to the community, be patient than correctly so. You said, ask us how we're doing and mean it. Both of those good. And I will say to you guys, stay hopeful. Do your best, because we really need you to be there and we really wanna be ourselves. Yeah. And again, let's hope that we all get on board for the work itself, but stay hopeful. Yeah. I think I am hopeful. Here, I mean, I'll say it like just working with other communities, Arlington is different. Good work is happening and the folks, I'd say leadership, they have it in their mind. So as long as it stays there, we're good. But I've definitely, you know, folks in other towns and cities have really been met with not having that support and it's not great. So I am hopeful because I do think we're on the right track. Yeah. Great. Well, she is, Jillian Harvey. She is the DEI director for the town and she is Margaret Creedle Thomas who does the same for Arlington Public Schools. This has been basically a DEI year in review episode of Talk of the Town. I hope you have hung in there for the whole conversation and are listening to these words now because I think it would have been worth your while to do so. Hope you feel the same way. I'm James Milan. Thanks so much for joining us. We'll see you another time.