 Welcome, everyone. Thank you for joining us this afternoon. It's such a pleasure to see you here as we start to gather for more in-person events and also for those of you who are joining online. Welcome to our policy talks at the Ford School series and really just my great pleasure and delight to be with you here today. I'm Michael Barr. I'm the John and Sanford Wildean of the Gerald R. Ford School of Public Policy. Before handing things over to my colleague, Michigan Law School Dean Mark West for a formal introduction of today's guest speaker. I just want to say a few words of thanks to our partners, the University of Michigan Law School, poverty solutions, our new Center for Racial Justice here in the Ford School, and of course, thank you to our partners at Detroit Public Television that are streaming this event today. Our students here at the Ford School are deeply passionate about equity and social justice and Mr. Turner's lifetime of work dedicated to fairness and access to justice herides an inspirational example to all of them and to all of us. In his new role at the ABA, his work focuses on some of today's most pressing issues, challenges to legal services, helping refugees in Afghanistan and Ukraine, judicial reform, election integrity and more. And so I'm very grateful to have him here today. Following President Turner's address, we're gonna move right outside to the Great Hall for a reception where President Turner has graciously agreed to connect with students, with faculty and staff in a more intimate setting. So please save questions and a more informal interaction time for that time. I'm thrilled to be partnering on this event with my colleague, Mark West, Dean of the Law School. First of all, he is my Dean and one of the senior deans on campus. So with that, I'd like to welcome Dean Mark West. Thank you, Michael. I'm honored to be here today to introduce a distinguished Michigan law alumnus, a member of the class of 1987 and our friend Reggie Turner. And I can think of no one better suited to talk with this group about leadership in law and policy. Reggie's a lawyer and executive committee member at the law firm of Clark Hill in Detroit. He represents corporate and governmental clients in litigation regarding commercial, employment, labor, class action and public policy matters. And he's an accomplished government affairs advocate and strategic advisor. He also is the current president of the American Bar Association. He is the 145th president and the fourth person of color to hold the position. The ABA is the largest voluntary association of lawyers in the world with somewhere in the range, if you could correct me, 400,000 members. So if you think about that, to think about the big house, four big houses filled with lawyers. And significantly it means the ABA is the national voice of the legal profession. Reggie became ABA president in August, 2021 having served the previous year as president-elect during which time another Michigan law alum also served as president. During his time on the board, the organization has faced no shortage of unique issues as a result of the pandemic and challenges to the rule of law. Under Reggie's leadership, the ABA is especially focused on issues including access to legal services, judicial reform, election integrity, the eviction crisis, and advancing the rule of law. Public service has long been a core part of the mission of the legal profession. Lawyers serve their clients, but we work for the larger community too. Reggie through his lifetime service embodies the soul of the profession and is made volunteering and service to others a hallmark of his career. From his earliest days in the profession as a law student when he served as the president of the law school student Senate, which I just learned, Reggie has served in the public and private sectors and has held many appointments. I won't mention all of them, but I wanna mention some of them because they are just so impressive. His presidential gubernatorial, mayoral, and county executive appointments include serving as a White House fellow, as an aide to housing and urban development secretary Henry Cisneros during the Clinton administration, representing Detroit Mayor Dennis Archer on the Detroit Board of Education and serving on the Michigan State Board of Education and the Wayne County Airport Authority. In the public sector, his service also includes a term as president of the National Bar Association, the nation's oldest and largest national network of predominantly African American attorneys. He served as chair of the Detroit Public Safety Foundation, served as vice chair of the Community Foundation for Southeast Michigan, and as a member of the boards of directors of the Hudson Webber Foundation and the United Way for Southeastern Michigan. And now in the private sector, he serves on the boards of directors of Masco Corporation and Comerica Inc. He helped broker the deal that saved the Detroit Institute of Arts from breaking up its collection amid the 2013 Detroit bankruptcy and he served as the executor of the Aretha Franklin estate. So that's about everything that a lawyer can do, and he has done it. Reggie, thank you so much for your service. Thank you for being with us today, and welcome home. Thank you, Dean West and Dean Barr. It is really a pleasure to be here. I see some of the students who were with me in the earlier, and I'm sorry that you're gonna have to hear many of the talking points that I gave earlier in today, but I am just so thrilled to be here, and particularly to have an opportunity to give some of the thoughts that I have about our legal profession to future lawyers and those who are interested in public policy as well. I think that the two professions are intertwined and are need to support the Constitution and laws of our great nation fall not only to those in the legal profession, but also to those who seek public office or serve in public office as those who have been hired as opposed to elected have an obligation to support the constitutions of our nation and our states to fulfill the goals of our great constitution and to support the rule of law and the health and safety of the public. My law school education in Ann Arbor shaped me in ways that I cannot even begin to enumerate, and the presence of the Ford School of Public Policy also provides tremendous scholarship, awareness, and influence regarding the great issues of our time for students at the University of Michigan today. I'm a proud Wolverine with our Association's Immediate Past President, Trish Refo, making us the first two ABA presidents in succession to hail from the University of Michigan. Trish is a respected lawyer, Trish is a respected lawyer in Phoenix and a wonderful person who led our association with incredible grace and gravitas, mainly from her kitchen with Zoom and a decent internet connection due to the pandemic. And I was sharing with earlier with some of the colleagues here that I was not expecting to become a bar groupie until I met Dennis Archer here at the University of Michigan when he was president of the State Bar of Mission. Michigan, he came and visited the law school. I was president of the Law School Student Senate and had the opportunity to introduce him, and I had heard of him because he was a friend of my father. I hadn't met him before, but he really got my attention with his gravitas and his concern for all people, and particularly for diversity and inclusion and for following the rule of law. And that has been a mentorship that continues to this day. After 30 years plus, I still call him from time to time when I have an important decision to make and talk it through with him before I make a final decision. And he's always willing to listen to me and to assist me with the issues that I bring up. I mentioned Trish Refo, and she's also had a tremendous impact on my growth and development in the Bar Association. And I will always be grateful to her for having me serve as her chair of rules and calendar in the ABA House of Delegates. And that's where we really, really bonded. So again, I think some of you have heard some of this before and I apologize, because I probably went a little longer in my remarks at the earlier meeting than I should have, but I do wanna thank Bob Hirshon again for giving me that time with you. And he has been a really wonderful mentor and began his service as ABA president in 2001, just one month before the world and the legal world changed forever after 9-11. I was grateful for the opportunity before this event to visit his class across the street in Hutchins Hall on legal ethics and professional responsibility, a subject that is core to the American Bar Association's programs and activities and who we are as a profession. Under our professional conduct codes, lawyers are officers of the court who have a duty of confidentiality to their clients affairs, avoidance of conflicts of interest, and numerous other responsibilities that enable us to provide full, frank, and unfettered representation, all of which are key elements in the rule of law and democratic societies. Bob Hirshon and Trish Riffo are both valued ABA colleagues and mentors to me as I mentioned. My primary mentor in the bar, Dennis Archer, as I said, continues to be a mentor for me to this day. But some of you may not know that Dennis Archer served as mayor of the city of Detroit and as a justice on the Michigan Supreme Court as well. He's a giant in Michigan and in the nation. So thanks to his guidance and to those of many of my other mentors, I've strived through my career to do justice. And as I mentioned earlier with some of the students who are here as well, I got involved in pro bono work when I was here at Michigan Law School. I had my first cases in the landlord tenant program here at the law school clinic, hoping to keep people in their homes when they were having difficulties with finances or other difficulties with their landlords. It was very gratifying to know that I had kept the roof over the heads of many people during that time. And it's been really interesting over the course of the last couple of years due to the pandemic that has been a really important, it's been a really important work to do for the American Bar Association. And I'm sure that there are students here at Michigan who have been working on some of those cases too. I don't know if, I guess I can be sure, but I'm confident that some of you, raise your hand if you've done some pro bono work while here at Michigan Law School. Okay, we had a couple of hands up. I hope all of you will consider doing that work. It is extremely fulfilling. It's the right thing to do. I often quote the lawyer's oath on this point. It says that I shall never reject from any consideration personal to myself the cause of a defenseless or oppressed or delay anyone's cause for a lucre or malice. And that's my favorite part of the oath. The biggest case, some of you've heard me mention this before, but the biggest case was the University of Michigan Affirmative Action Cases. Worked for four and a half years, pro bono on those cases. And I was at council table in the US Supreme Court. My one and only appearance in the US Supreme Court was on the Gratz and Grutter cases. What we call the split decision was actually what we believe is a victory because the rulings in those cases made it clear that the university could consider diversity, equity and inclusion in building that student body. And I look around the room and I see diversity in this room. It might not have been here had we not won that case. The role of the lawyer is to do justice. It's not the only profession for which that is an imperative. There are many others, but one of my favorite examples is Martin Luther King. He wasn't a lawyer, but he was deeply, deeply engaged in the quest for justice. And he showed us that doing justice is not reserved for the legal realm. It is much broader and much deeper, much more sacred. Quoting from scripture, he urged us all whether whatever our personal or professional calling that we should strive for the day when justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream. He reminded us of the need for persistence, prophesizing that the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice. The First Amendment provides that we the people have the right to assemble peacefully and petition our government to redress grievances. We resolve our disputes peacefully most of the time based on facts and evidence with the guarantee of due process. Everyone deserves to be treated fairly. Might does not make right. This is justice and it is our charge, our calling as the prophet said, repeating for emphasis, justice, justice, justice you shall pursue. The ADA's motto is defending liberty, delivering justice. Our association is the largest organization of lawyers, judges and other professionals in the world. We promote the highest standards of ethical conduct and professional excellence. We advocate for equal justice under law and the principles of an independent legal profession and judiciary that are core to the democratic rule of law. We serve our members through educational programming, publications on the lettuce developments and numerous practice areas and opportunities to connect with colleagues and lead our profession on issues of law and justice with like-minded lawyers across the country and throughout the world. Our House of Delegates with more than 600 representatives of state and major metropolitan bar associations and other legal organizations develops detailed reports and resolutions for the ADA on a range of topics that intersect with law and policy, including criminal and civil justice, healthcare, housing, immigration and asylum, international law, human and civil rights and many other areas. The ADA has broadened my world as no other opportunity I've had. I grew up in Detroit in a working-class family. My father was a police officer and my mother was a library aide and that means I was heavily disciplined and I read a lot. I was brought up to believe that we are all in this life together and that each of us must treat everyone we encounter with dignity and respect. I have vivid memories of the 1967 Detroit riot, which like others across the nation devastated our community and we're stoked by poverty, lack of opportunity, injustice and police brutality. After the riot my parents sought ways to heal our troubled psyches and our minds and spirits and so they found a cultural exchange program called Focus Hope, which brought together city and suburban residents to break down racial barriers and my family came to have a close relationship with a wonderful Italian-American family from St. Clair Shores and it was transformative. They had six kids, there were four kids in my family. We had home and home visits, we went on picnics and my first trip up north in Michigan was as a guest of the Latancio families and we all jumped in their motor home, if you remember those. And we drove up north and camped out for a few days and it was a really interesting experience in a variety of ways for me because I had never used outdoor plumbing. But the real lesson, the more important lesson was that again we had so much in common in terms of our families and our goals and our ideals and our beliefs. And that was my first introduction to what we now call diversity equity and inclusion. And I tried over the course of time to fulfill the teachings that I learned from that Focus Hope program back in the late 1960s. Regrettably for much of his history the American Bar Association did not answer this calling. The ABA was founded in 1878. In 1912 the ABA rescinded the membership of a lawyer named William H. Lewis who was the first black assistant attorney general. That's an assistant attorney general and they told him he couldn't be a member of the American Bar Association because he was an African American. That was a long time ago. But the ABA has learned from its mistakes and has doubled down on diversity. I think many of you know about Dennis Archer if at least I've heard his name but I had the privilege of being his law clerk when he created the first diversity entity for the American Bar Association. At that time it was called the Commission on Opportunities for Diversity in the Legal Profession. And I was sitting in his office while he was talking to an ABA staffer named Rachel. Who was working with him on that program and it came to fruition. And today the ABA has the full panoply of diversity programs, not just for racial and ethnic diversity but for people who are differently abled for gender identity for women. The full panoply of diversity issues are being addressed by the ABA. And I think that those of you who are not yet ABA members as I mentioned a little earlier, it's free for students. And there are lots of resources that are available in the American Bar Association to address the important needs of our nation. Dennis of course was the first person of color to be president of the American Bar Association after creating that commission. And I'm pleased to say that diversity has followed him as well, not just with me, but there have been, now we're in our fourth, Deborah will be the fourth, I'm sorry, fifth African-American president of the ABA when she takes the gavel in August. So significant progress over the course of time and we've had Latino presidents and we are going to have our first Native American president to follow Deborah Enix Ross. Her name is Mary Smith and that will break yet another barrier. So we're very, very, very, very committed to diversity, equity and inclusion. And all these folks have been elected by the membership of the American Bar Association. So this is progress that has been long coming, unfortunately too long coming, but it's bearing wonderful fruit at this time. And so we just need to keep doing what we're doing. I mentioned the Michigan Affirmative Action Cases, but as you know, there will always be challenges. And I really wanna make sure that we understand how important it is to support organizations, even if you can't be directly involved in the litigation. It's important to help fund those organizations that are doing pro bono work to meet the needs of the public. And the State Bar of Michigan created a program that essentially invites every lawyer in the State Bar of Michigan to contribute to pro bono program. Can't mandate it because it's an integrated bar and membership is mandatory, but there's a lot of pressure to do that for those, because it's absolutely, absolutely important. So the oath we take as lawyers says I shall never reject from any consideration personal to myself the cause of the defense is so oppressed. And I repeat that often because it's so, it is just such an important thing. And sometimes we just, we get caught up into the cycle of our daily work, which is important, but don't forget to reach out and help someone as our oath. We all took the same, those of us who are lawyers all took that same oath. And it's sometimes it's easy to have it on the back seat, but I think it should always be at least in mind, if not in front of mind. The ABA also invests in the pipeline for diversity in this legal opportunity scholarship fund, which has been one of my favorite charities for quite a long time to ensure that there are diverse students who are getting the funds needed to go to law school. And those of you who are not lawyers, or not lawyers yet, but are thinking about becoming lawyers may want to check into that fund as well as you're thinking about, about going to law school. Our, just changing topics, our, aside from litigation on justice issues, there's also a need for reform of the criminal justice system to reduce bias and inadequacies in the system to decrease our nation's overall reliance on criminal fines and fees that disproportionately affect people of color and those in poverty to reduce the collateral consequences of criminal convictions, particularly those that limit eligibility for housing, employment, and life sustaining assistance programs. Our environmental justice task force is bringing ABA entities together to lead on legal issues, facing those who are in danger of having unhealthy environments and subsequent illness and or death as a result of toxic substances in their atmosphere. And so that is a really important piece of the work that the American Bar Association continues to do. I talk about Dr. King quite a bit. He used to say that injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. And one of my favorite quotes is, we are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality tied in a single garment of destiny. He wrote from his jail cell in Birmingham, Alabama. Whatever affects one directly affects all indirectly. Our members in the ABA are dedicated in many ways to the exercise of leadership for justice and the rule of law. This includes our education and advocacy on policy issues that not only involve the administration of justice, but are also essential to our basic rights and freedoms under law. Without question, the most fundamental of these basic rights and freedoms is the ability of all eligible individuals to exercise the right to vote freely and fairly. And we oppose any barriers to fair and open elections and subversion of the voting process. Unfounded attacks on our election systems, processes, and officials undermine trust in elections and our duly elected leaders. Through advocacy, education, and the policies adopted by our House of Delegates, the ABA continues to lead in this area. It just came back from a meeting in Washington where a group of our associations were meeting to address a full panoply of issues that they have for their members. And this is just a wide array of interests around the table. But there was common understanding of the need for us to meet in Washington, D.C., and to address issues at the highest level of government to ensure that our nation responds to the needs of our citizens across all of the issues that I've been talking about here this afternoon. And it was my first business trip to Washington, D.C., in a while because of the pandemic. Having real face-to-face meetings on Capitol Hill or with the agencies has been very difficult to do, and so things are open enough a bit. And I'm looking forward to getting back there soon. The ABA advocates in Washington for educational loan forgiveness, which is, again, one of the most important things that we need in order to ensure that the practice of law is open to all who have interest in the profession and have the skills to get here. I'm going to cut out a couple of these comments here. But one of the things I want to note is that stories of each of the lawyer presidents from John Adams through Barack Obama and Joe Biden are told in a delightful ABA book called Law Office to Oval Office. And I've had the privilege of spending a lot of time with both President Obama and with Joe Biden, who has, if any of you have ever met him, you know about his bear hugs. And he loves people. He's got just as hard as big as all outdoors and it's been fun to watch him doing his work as president of the United States. And of course, given where I stand right now, I have to note that Gerald Ford is just a wonderful leader, was a wonderful leader, and he stabilized his nation after Watergate. Most of you are too young to remember Watergate there. But he was a wonderful, calming influence in our nation after the lawlessness of his predecessor that had denied it, had divided the nation in a very polarized way. And I give him a great deal of credit and I understand why this school is named for him. He's a great Michigan during a great statesman. And with that, I'm going to stop and answer any questions. Yes. Justice, and moving towards justice. I was also thinking about upholding the rule of law as a non-lawyer. I'm wondering how much there can be attention there when you think of justice. I can imagine lawyers sort of having to uphold the rule of law in a way that actually enforces unjust laws, some of the laws that our team was fighting against, for example, or perhaps representing people that they might think are doing things that perhaps don't work towards justice but have a legal right to do. So I wonder how you think of a legal professor or a question sort of managing these common detention or maybe they really do. That's a very interesting question. Lawyers have to make decisions about what kind of work. An example of criminal defendants is probably one of the most poignant examples of when a lawyer is representing a person who the lawyer either knows is guilty or suspects is guilty, but our Constitution provides that individual the right to counsel. And accordingly, there's a role for lawyers to defend even those who may have committed a crime and embodied in our Constitution. And that's at the kind of extreme end, but everyone, in my view, I believe has the right to representation in litigation matters, whether it's in criminal litigation or landlord-tenant litigation or big corporate litigation or product recalls. I think that's what the justice system is for. I think we have one of the best justice systems in the world that addresses the full panoply of issues and tries to create a level playing field. And we know the playing field is not always going to be, well, not ever going to be completely level because some people have more resources, some programs in some states are weaker than others and some are really outstanding. So there will always be some differences with respect to the quality of legal services that are available. But I believe that where there is a legal issue at stake, whether the person is guilty or innocent or whether the corporation polluted or didn't pollute or whether the issue at hand, whatever the issue at hand, both sides deserve to have good representation. And that is clearly a part of our U.S. public policy. We just follow, at some point here, when they go into corporate law, they're representing corporations being sued for polluting and all of these other things. But in a lot of civil cases, there is no right to representation in the lieutenant cases or in other areas. So I'm just wondering, do you think the next, maybe progression in our legal system to, you know, defending our justice to the good way is to increase who has right to representation regardless of financial needs, means especially when we know that some corporations can't afford the long-term gains we offer? Yeah, I certainly understand that there are gaps, which is why the ABA has so many programs to draw lawyers into doing pro bono work. And I try to lead on those matters by example. It's just, there will, I hope this won't always be true, but I think it's probably always going to be true that there will be some people who don't get adequate legal counsel. And for a variety of reasons, resources, which is why, again, I donate to the programs that support free legal services for those who need them. Yes. Hi, my name's Zahraha Kutu, and you mentioned in your remarks that the ABA is kind of taking with how, obviously, an issue that means large for many of us law students, which is the cost of legal education. So what kinds of tools do you and the ABA have to, whether it's, you know, lobbying federal government officials to, you know, reform the process of student loan granting or try and incentivize schools to make legal education more affordable for students so that that isn't a huge financial barrier for people who want it. Yeah, we're working on, it's kind of all of the above. We, first of all, the ABA has its own scholarship programs for those in need. We advocate on Capitol Hill for more programs that have, that provide opportunities for people to come into the legal profession. So we're doing it both in terms of our own pockets, but also urging the government and others outside of the ABA to support these programs that give access to legal education. It's critically important. And I personally, I mean, I won't give you numbers, but I'm deeply engaged in that work. So Marcia and I were just talking about you. Yeah. It's good to see you. Oh, it's my privilege to be here. Yeah, applications of a judge, et cetera. And we particularly saw that, I think, in the last presidential administration. So I wonder if you could talk about how the ABA's music role, I suspect, is attendant among the membership in terms of what the role should be. Well, you know, let's just say we're a little more comfortable right now that the ABA will have a role, a usual role in the vetting of federal judges. And I think that the, both the Biden administration and the Senate Judiciary Committee as constituted now understands that the ABA has a nonpartisan role in this process. And it's one of the reasons why the ABA considers that lawyers who serve on the Standing Committee of the Federal Judiciary for the American Bar Association do not give any partisan, make any partisan political donations. We want it to be a neutral arbiter as to the qualifications of those who are seeking federal judgeships. And there's already a big buzz about the most recent Supreme Court nominee. And we are steering clear of making any pronunciations with respect to her nomination until after the Standing Committee on the Federal Judiciary does its thorough background check and the committee will present its findings to the Senate Judiciary Committee not on the basis of politics but rather on the basis of the qualifications that are needed to serve. Thank you, but also a member of the bar. One of her concerns as a young lawyer has been the lack of mentorship from older lawyers because it takes time and money. What is the ABA actively doing to ensure that new lawyers are properly supported by their more experienced colleagues? One of the things that helped me get into the American Bar Association was just the fact that I received a scholarship to the University of Michigan. I think I mentioned to some of the folks earlier, I worked my way through undergrad, loading trucks at night at night at parcel service. Both my parents were public servants as I mentioned earlier and they didn't have money to put four kids through both college and grad school. I actually worked two jobs, I loaded trucks at night and I worked in a drug store on the weekends to pay my tuition through Wayne State University and when I got that scholarship to the University of Michigan, I changed my life. That's one of the reasons why I have such a soft spot for this wonderful institution, the University of Michigan. There's always much to do and I think we all need to consider how we can help those who need help join this profession whether it's the legal profession or public policy generally just about, I mean there's always room to help this university make differences, quite positive differences in the lives of people who would benefit from the wonderful opportunities here on this campus. And it's all, and I know that not everybody's going to be in a position early in your careers to give a lot of money. I started giving money shortly after I graduated, very small amounts and they've grown over the course of time but I think it's up to all of us to ensure that the generations that come behind us especially those people who are in need have the same opportunities that we have. We've had a bit more work to do on advocating for violating the rule of law and I know that Rudy Giuliani was this part from the New York State bar. I was just wondering how does the ADA approach this type of question, especially when dealing with figures who are so public in their profile to get in comment at all? Yeah, we typically don't take sort of political kinds of positions. We do, we get involved in pro bono litigation from time to time but we are careful to kind of stay in our lane so to speak and there are public policy cases in which from time to time we will submit amicus briefs in order to help but they're not necessarily briefs that will always point to a specific result in the case but rather thoughtful issues often those briefs are composed with issues that we think the court may miss if they don't have an opportunity to receive the work that we do and sometimes they are more pointed than that and they actually do suggest a particular outcome but it's important to those amicus briefs are a very important part of what we do. I have worked, I've had two or three voting rights cases over the course of time as a pro bono lawyer and have been involved in programs that support voting rights from a proactive stance to make sure that people get to vote one of the things that I learned from Dennis Archer was the importance of making sure we have free and fair elections in the US so that's been a significant part of my career when I was my first law firm after leaving the clerkship in 1989 I went to a union side labor law firm called the sex nun Kate's Caduceus and Waldman in Detroit and it was a great firm one of the largest union side labor firms in the nation and they also had an orisa section within the firm so I learned how to do core labor law learned the orisa issues but they also were counseled to the Michigan Democratic Party and so I did my first voting rights work and redistricting work and I got that law firm and so it was a great experience I think it's very interesting work to do and it's a great way to do some pro bono work is to work on voting rights access to polls etc it's critically important it's one of the best rock of our constitution I encourage anyone and everyone to think about getting involved I was actually there's a group in southeast Michigan right now that's working diligently on voting rights for the upcoming election and they actually invited me to get involved but I had to say no which is not something I often do but I told them I explained to them I have three jobs right now I'm still doing client work at my law firm I am president of the American Bar Association and I'm doing meetings like this day in and day out I'm also the special personal representative for the Aretha Franklin estate that is a great honor her family chose me to help manage the estate through its closure I'm almost two years into that and we're getting close to the end but she was kind to me on the times that I interacted with her my favorite time that I interacted with her was when she and when I was president of the Wolverine Bar Association which is the African American local bar for southeast Michigan I invited her to the Barristers Ball and she came and stayed the whole night and that was really cool so that estates so we're getting three jobs going on right now and I don't have much room for doing a lot of things fortunately my wife and daughters still put up with me