 Alright, perfect. Okay, and I'm just going to pull up welcome everyone to the August 15th meeting of the African Heritage Reparation Assembly. I'm calling the meeting to order at 204pm pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021 this meeting will be conducted via remote means members of the public who have reached to access the meeting may do so via zoom or by telephone. No in person attendance of members of the public will be permitted, but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time via technological means. Jennifer did have to leave us today and I know that Alexis will not be able to join us for the next couple of meetings she made me aware of that so we'll certainly miss her. I'm going to do a quick sound check and then we have lots of guests who are joining us this morning who I'm going to ask Pamela to help me to bring into the room. Pamela just so you know everyone except for LM and MK using those initials everyone else should be brought into the room. And so first Deborah can you hear and be heard. Yes, I can hear you. Can you hear me. All right. All right, and Dr Rhodes. I can hear. Okay, we can hear you as well. And Yvonne. Yes, I can hear. And we can see you now. And Dr Shabazz. Okay, well we could hear him a second ago so speaking in Spanish. Hopefully, as we're bringing folks into the room here. We have special guests from the League of Women Voters Racial Justice Committee. If you'd like to put your camera on that would be fantastic. If you're in a position where you aren't able to that's okay too. It's nice to see all your faces. And we'll make sure that that you can all be heard as well in just a moment. Right. Dr Shabazz what do you have behind you. So this is the Plaza of Simone de Boulevard in Bogota, Colombia. This is a scene from the presidential inauguration of last week. Yeah, I'm very, very excited to hear more about it. Okay, I think we've brought everyone in thank you Pamela. So we have, as I said, some guests joining us today for a meet and greet. We wanted to, many of us know each other from different, you know, aspects in the community but we thought as one committee to another committee who is working on racial justice. They could bring us together and have an opportunity just to say hello and introduce ourselves, and then maybe have some discussion about what we're doing as a committee in the coming months and what you all are doing and then how we might be able to support each other in in our shared work. And I do want to say that the racial justice committee of the league has been an integral committee in moving the community along with respect to racial justice issues and has prior to reparations for Amherst putting out a report, which sort of started the ball rolling with the reparations work. The leagues, I think it was this committee that put forward a really, really fantastic report that's available on their website it's available also I believe on our HR a resources page if it's not it should be. And it provided a lot of data and information and also really helped the community to see how lacking in racial data there was and how challenging it was to get that data so. And of course, the racial justice committee has been working to support the foundational components of the DI and press department coming into fruition, most recently held a welcome celebration at graph park to welcome Pamela and Marcy, who is the chair of that committee say a little bit more but Marcy I was thinking that we could each just go around and maybe say our name and what brings us to the work briefly or whatever kind of comes in the moment. So we'll pass it over to you, Marcy and you can start if you'd like. So Michelle, do you want me to then call on my committee members. Sure. Committee members. Okay, so I think y'all know me I'm Marcy slope I've been in town for a long time. I've been sharing this committee. We started in the spring, early summer of 2020. As a, as a member of the League of Women voters, it used to be local action committee, and then morphed into social justice committee, and now is specifically addressing racial justice issues. Mostly in town but our charges, sort of two fold one is looking at town work, and where we can be helpful in supporting the work and also in promoting good communication and, you know, just better relationships. And also internally with the league we have a charge to educate and bring the league closer to the desires of the whole state and national League of Women voters which is since really for the last two years very much looking at almost everything through the lens of the CEI. So our charges to help bring the local league members along in that as well. So, that's sort of a beginning of who I am. I'll just go around from my screen. Renee I see you do you want to say hello. You're muted. Everybody needs to remember yeah. I'm Renee Moss. And I know several, several of you on the screen. I have been in a since 1981 and for 32 years I was the director of big brothers big sisters of Hampshire County and chaired the Amherst human services network as well. And now I am on the leadership of the sojourner truth for social change leadership. I joined this committee the racial justice committee of the League of Women voters I believe about two years ago. And it's my passion it's my heart it's where I want to be it's the kind of work I want to be doing and I thank you for having us here today. Ash, again muted yeah. Yeah, unmute I know. The most commonly heard thing on zoom, really good to see you all. And I think I know all of you except for Yvonne and it's good to meet you, Yvonne, even if virtually. I've been in Amherst for about 20 years now but most of my work has actually taken me. Hello. Most of my work is taken me to. I specialize in international education I'm an adjunct faculty member at a professor at the Center for International Education at UMass and much of my work has taken me to work in education in Africa over many many years. And that's my passion but my passion is also now the education of ourselves in this country to relearn our lost history. Our neglected history and to bring that to bear on a better understanding of how public policy can begin to change, and especially starting locally right here in town and. I'm really pleased to be here and and to be a part of a process of learning how we can do a much, much better job about our relationships and our policies and our local justice and our local equity, a lot to be done. Martha. Hi, I'm Martha Hanner, and I moved to Amherst after retiring so that's been 15 or 18 years ago by now. I was an astronomer by training and joined this committee two years ago and I feel I've learned a lot in these two years, both about the larger issues and then about our challenges here and I worked on that report that you referred to with Ash and we were struck really by the data that are lacking. And there's there's really not even a basic census of the black community here in Amherst and then we're really glad that that you folks are undertaking that, because that's, you know, that's an important basis to start with so. Thank you for hosting the meeting and we look forward to working together in the future. Thank you Martha Marcy before you move is Bonnie. Yes. Okay. If Pamela if you could bring Bonnie and that would be wonderful. Go on sorry Marcy. Oh sure, sure. May. Hello everyone. I can't see everyone who's here but maybe the screens are off the cameras are off. I'm Meg Gage. I live in North Amherst, almost next door to Michelle, not quite district one. I am retired from 35 year career in philanthropy, working primarily on democracy and human rights, particularly focusing on voting rights, gerrymandering and things like that. I have been involved in this work a long time don't need to go through the details. I really appreciate being on the Racial Justice Committee. And a particular contribution that I've made is sharing what I've learned over the 35 years of building a multiracial diverse organizations, particularly challenging the field of philanthropy which is largely white. And drafted the first draft of the memo we wrote to the town on strategies for and tools for creating more diverse committees and staff. And I'd say that's an area where I have been able to contribute because of my work. Thank you. I should say I have a meeting at three not home. So I'll have to either get on my phone and be weird or just leave about 10 minutes to three. We might, we might be done by then I think anyway. Thank you Meg. Jeff, and then Bonnie. And then my name is Jeff gold I hold the distinction of being the most recent member of the legal women voters racial justice committee. And that's about the month's duration maybe six weeks I don't know something like that so I'm the, I'm the baby of the group. I live on the Amherst Pellum line, literally, across the street is is Amherst I did about five feet across the road and I live in Pellum. But I'm mostly retired clinical psychologist for the last 25 years I've worked with traumatized adolescents children and their families in Springfield and and Pittsfield mostly. And, and another hat that some of you probably know that I wear is that I'm the co chair of the reparations committee of the Jewish community of Amherst we put together the stolen beam series which I'm proud to say tomorrow registration will be opening for that course at the Jones library. So, we're very very excited about doing this with the cosponsorship of the HR a and the Jones library and we're really hoping that it's going to be a big, big success so welcome and I know some of you I don't know all of you. I'm very happy to be here. Thank you just Bonnie. Do you want to turn your camera on to if you can. And you're muted. Do you want to just introduce yourself briefly. Hi everybody, I'm Bonnie yes man and I'm sorry I'm late I got involved in a ongoing issue with the book sale so I'm now back fully on this racial justice topic and I'm looking forward to hearing from everybody. It's an important mission you folks have and I think it's really great to have a joint meeting together. Thank you so much. Thanks. So Michelle, do you want to have introductions with your committee and then I have a few things I'd like to say just background about the league. Absolutely, that would be fantastic. And for that, I just made a note there are three more members of our committee who couldn't make it today. David Williams, Andrea battle, and Rebecca frica, and they are all longtime members of our committee. So sorry they're not here. I'm glad you mentioned that I had made a note for you from our email exchange to mention that so yeah I'm glad that you mentioned it and maybe the next time we'll be able to join us. So let's start by doing some introductions here. And Dr Rhodes, can we start with you, you're first on my so I'm going to start with you and then we'll go around and just a brief, brief introduction. Yeah, my name is a road and obviously I'm a member of this committee. I've been an Amherst for a long time. I'm also on the school committee. I'm also on the downtown Amherst Foundation committee. And I'm a committee member of the United Way of Frank and Hampshire. And as a member of that group I said on their DEI committee. You're busy. So my wife says, we're very grateful to have you on this committee. Ms Bridges get a find that a mute button. It's there somewhere. You're looking diverse there. I know dear. Hi, I know. A lot of you on the committee, Meg, Marcy and Ash. I just got on the reparations committee. Thanks to Michelle. I was very, very interested in being on this committee, as well as yours. We haven't gotten around to that one yet, but we will. But being seventh generation and Amherst. I thought I could contribute a lot to reparations. I'm just listening a whole lot and putting in two cents, but I'm very happy to be a part of it. And a part of the town and the committee coming back. And we are very grateful that you joined us. This is, I think, third or fourth meeting now I was, I was thinking about that. There's a third, you know, third. Yeah. Well, one of them I remember didn't happen. I think your first one. Dr. Shabazz, are you available? Yes, so milk or Shabazz, I serve on this committee as well, and have been awakened to the issue of black reparations since 1980 as a political concern but aware of the pains and harms really throughout my life learning from my grandmother of how my grandfather was white capped. That's where I learned the term white capped because he was working as a private entrepreneur and becoming too successful. And so was visited by people in white caps, Ku Klux Klans to stop his business or the next visit would be the end of his life. I have also was made aware as a child as well of a race riot in my hometown of Boma, Texas in 1943, where my family personally lost capital as a result of whites rioting in that in that city in 1943. So that's some of the background that I bring to this issue. Thank you. Thank you Dr. Shabazz. And Yvonne. Hi, I know a bunch of people here, Megan Renee. Yeah, nice to see you. I'm also a member of this committee very proud to serve. I've been in Amherst since the 1980s. I moved here to go to college and I ended up working at the University of Massachusetts with Roberta Uno at Newell Theater. And a lot of my background is of the arts, social justice and equity within the arts. I worked at the UMass Fine Arts Center for 30 years, doing a lot of that as well as music presenting, arts presenting, outdoor festivals, and doing engagement and outreach work with the local communities in Springfield, Duke, Greenfield, all around Western Massachusetts. So a lot of that kind of work. I've been on this committee. I think this is our second tour. We got re-upped recently. And I also served six years as the chair of the Amherst Local Cultural Council. So that's some of my committee experience. Yeah, I worked on Amherst Cinema. I served on the Amherst Cinema committee. Thank you. Yes, I did. And probably a bunch of other committees I can't remember back in the day. But just to keep things moving, I have a particular interest in housing equity for people of color. I think it's the best way for folks to build wealth. And I've actually had a couple of instances in my personal life where I or my family was denied access to housing or to purchasing housing or loans because of racism. So that's my particular reason for joining the committee. I really want to see that be a reality for reparations for folks who live in Amherst. Thank you, Yvonne. And I will say we are missing two members today. Alexis Reed and Hala Heather Lord, who many of you probably know both of those folks. Alexis works at Amherst Media. So you may know her if you haven't seen her through there. She sets up every town council meeting. And we're missing the scenes there. So, and I think many of you know Heather, and so I'm sorry they can't be with us today, but you're missing two I think and we're missing. We'll have to that means we'll have missing threats. Ah, three. Okay. And also Pamela would you. I know everybody knows you but just to I'm Pamela Young, the DEI director I've had the pleasure of being invited to address the equity group for the League of Women Voters so they've had a chance to hear my story. Quite a bit and obviously Ms. Daph liaise on to this group with Jen Moisten so Yeah, and Jennifer is I think some of you heard had to take care of some personal matters right at the beginning of the meeting. Ms. Bridges I see your hand is raised. I, I think when I was saying in the beginning I told me forgot to add on that for those of you that don't know me that I do also do the tours of the Civil War tablets. There's stories about that and also we have an exhibit the ancestral bridges. We have an exhibit in the museum next to the library with. It's a beautiful pictorial exhibit of the black families that were in Amherst from the 1800s and before so sorry, I forgot to just put that in there. Just so the people don't know we know also. That's the other part of what I do. So, and that's in the bank center downstairs the Civil War plaques tablet so you get a chance please come and visit Ash knows all about that he's here. He's there every day with me. He always comes and says hello. Ms. Bridges would you say the hours for the Civil War tablets and also is the History Museum. If you didn't catch that on Juneteenth weekend it is quite phenomenal. And so wondering if that's open to the public right now. Actually yes I was there last Saturday this past Saturday I'm actually going to be there every Saturday for two hours and it's going to stay in there until they closed down for the winter. So that's a great thing and what I do is I do the tours downstairs which they call the pole room in the bank center and I'm there Tuesday Wednesday Thursday from 10 to three. And I'll, I do the tours I'm waiting hopefully September. I spoke to Sarah bar at Amherst College she's going to be bringing. Hopefully, students and faculty there. So it hopefully it'll be stepping up in September if if the dreaded cove it doesn't stop things in September again, let's, from my mouth thoughts years, but I'm happy to know that they're going to keep that exhibit in the museum right up until probably September. So, that's awesome. And it's always nice to have someone there like myself who's seven generations Amherst. And I can, you know I have stories it's, it's sometimes hard you just look at pictures and you don't know but when somebody's actually telling you, my grandfather told me this story my uncle told me this story. And it brings it to life, because, you know, when you're an ancestor it's, it's easy to say you know I sat on my grandfather's lap and he told me what he went through with racism and, you know, and I myself had have gone through something you know, teachers saying things in fourth grade you know like how does it feel to be a little black girl how does it feel to be a slave that my fourth grade teacher said to me. So, I know what the harm is and reason another reason I'm on this committee is, I don't want to see that happening to the kids now. So, whatever we can do to stop that. That's another reason I'm all for all these committees. Thank you. Thank you, Miss Bridges. You're welcome. Yeah, so Marcy, I think you wanted to make some comments and then I thought after that we could open it up for five or 10 minutes just for other members on either committee to make comments or I wanted to share a little bit about what we'll be doing and how we might be able to work together with that. So I will pass it to you though. Go ahead. Okay, thanks Michelle. Yeah, so there's a few things I want to just update you all on. In the last meeting, we agreed that we're going to shift gears a little bit in our, in our programming coming up in the future. We've been talking to your committee about cosponsoring a book group to read the Darity Mullen book. And we decided after, you know, whatever happened between your committee and our committee and working with the steering committee. We have decided that that isn't the best choice of a book for us to start a reading group on reparations. And this is for the public but mostly for league members as I said that's part of our charge is to educate league members. And instead, we are exploring the idea of using the stolen beam curriculum in a different fashion within the league itself. So the way the league works, which is both a blessing and a curse, and kind of, you know, a lot of hoops for us to jump through but also is part of the reason that the league has a lot of integrity and a lot of good reputation is that advocacy happens after the league in some form either on the local level state level or national level has done a study group, followed by a consensus meeting and a vote, and then followed by adopting a policy which happens at an annual meeting. So it's a kind of a long process to go from, you know, having some thoughts about something and then creating a policy position that then the league can advocate for. So examples of this would be, you know, abortion. Another example would be the old town government was something that was studied arduously and then came there was a policy position about that Amherst town government those are two examples. On this on the national level, state level and local level reparations has not been studied, even though DEI is this very important lens now that the league is looking at everything through. We're not up in this process for our for reparations. So because of that, we are limited as a committee for the kind of support that we can give you guys. The best thing we can do at this point is to offer our support through educational means, and that is another big aspect of the league, even when there isn't a position paper and advocacy. Education is always very much appreciated. So for instance, we invited you to participate in our Judy Brooks conversation series, early on when you had just been formed as a committee early, I, you know, last year sometime. And that was a way to introduce you and your work to the league and to the public because these are open meetings. The indicators report that has been mentioned a couple of times is another way that we can get education and, you know, questions out into the into the universe. These are two ideas. And the third is this network that we have been exploring for two years now and it. It's still in, you know, it's on hiatus right now but it's still a network and we're moving in different directions that we don't, you know, we're in the process of figuring out about the network and how how that's going to function. So education is a big way that we can like finding ways that we can support you without writing a letter to the council to approve money for you for instance that we couldn't do because of our limitations with the league. It's the same way that we could do that with Cress, and we could do that with DEI because there are positions about those things. So, our hope, and it's a little bit lofty, but our hope is that through stolen beam and through education and, you know, having back to Judy Brooks all these different educational tools that we get league members excited about creating a study group, and possibly we could be, you know, the ones who get this reparations position off the ground for the league on the local level on the state level. And one kind of cool thing is that these don't have to be hierarchical, like if we had a position that we went through the process, and there was a vote and then we had a local chapter position on reparations. In other chapters, other leagues could then use hours to create their own. They wouldn't have to go through the whole study group and consensus meeting process. Similarly, you know, it could grow to the state level. So anyway, we hope that more and more education can lead to getting more teeth in terms of being able to be supportive regarding reparations locally and nationally, you know, it's a big deal for the whole country, of course. So, that's something, you know, we're always sort of asking how can we promote support, help committees doing racial work in Amherst, and that that is something that we hope to have you understand about our limitations and also to know that we are really interested in hearing how you feel we could be helpful. So I guess that's the little spill I wanted to explain about the league and how it works and why it can be frustrating like we, for instance, we will have. Okay, hopefully at at 330 today is the next hearing committee of the league, the local league that that's the steering committee meeting. Martha is going to go to the meeting with a letter that we all agreed and voted on that will be presented at town council meeting tonight. If the steering committee votes on it. And it is a letter that is. Oh, I don't know, someone else might be able to talk more ash and was the main person who wrote the letter so we could, we could tell you what that is but the point is the process we have to go through is that we write something we all agree on it there at least 10 of us that you know have to kind of have some consensus or at least a majority. And then it goes to the steering committee, they have to vote on it, they have to approve it, and then we have the power to do something public in a meeting. So that that's an example of, you know, like some of the hoops we have to go through, which also is part of being part of the league and gives us the benefits of that. I guess is that clear. Did I, I have COVID. And so I'm a little like, you know, not quite as articulate as I often possibly could be so anyway, I hope, I hope that was clear. And I think I'll stop for now. It was very, very clear Marcy really coven brain and all it was great. Very helpful. It's really good I think for for our committee to understand that and understand sort of the process that, you know, the league goes through and I do hope the steering committee will approve the letter for tonight's meeting. If that, you know, that's another hurdle at the last minute I know how that feels. So, yeah, so let's just open it up and see if there are, although, hang on one second, I just have to count. Okay, we're still okay. I think Dr. Shabazz may have left the room, but we have 1234 so we're still okay in terms of a quorum. Pamela, will you just keep your eye out in the attendees for Dr. Shabazz. Sometimes he'll leave and end up there and so Michelle I have just, I was blanking on the content of that letter, and what it's about. Actually, which isn't reparations related but it's about the incident that happened with the police and they'll be discussing that tonight and so we have a public statement that we want to make about that. Yeah, but we really, you know, because we haven't discussed it yet with the steering committee, you know, I think we really have some obligation not to talk about it. No, I was using it as an example of our process, but not to get into the details. Thanks, Martha. Yeah. I think we kind of did it had to do it at the last minute one of one of our problems is if something comes up in town or you know something gets raised by one of our committees and so on. We can't just make an immediate statement just because we have to get consensus in our committee and then consensus from the steering committee it makes things a little awkward sometimes where people ask well you know why aren't you talking about this but you know, we feel that in the long term, having this process that we have to go through is better in the sense that it helps keep us being, you know, impartial and not emotional and, you know, all but but it does feel awkward sometimes Yeah, yeah. That's all so yeah so we really can't say anything more about the letter I don't think because of because of that. Yeah. Yeah, and so I saw Meg's hand go up and then I saw Ash's hand go up so I'll go in that order. Thanks. One of the things you all might think about which is a light lift would be to consider joining the league. One of our goals that Marcy didn't mention is trying to diversify the league membership itself not so much, not only our committee but the league. And it's, you don't have to be on any committees you can just be a member and it would help when these decisions come up when membership expresses their opinion in a certain way. Absolutely and when Marcy and I had a great conversation that was one of the things that came up is it's it's it seems like a rather low commitment to join the league you don't have to get heavily involved but you can, which is nice. I mean, my, my own story about that was that I was a paying member for over 10 years and then the dials lined up and Judy Brooks and I co chaired the voter service department and then from there I actually became president of the league for a year and a half but my feeling about the league with all of its limitations or, you know, ways that it needs to grow it. It has held, it has held the container for democracy and Amherst for all these years. And it has been, you know, the, the feeder of information when we had town meeting and all the voter guides, all the, you know, all the ways that issues got expressed and when there were issues that had policies that we that the league had done this work on, you know, we would have a town meeting for certain things so it has always been a really important aspect of democracy and town, and it's also kind of invisible like you see the voter guide and because that you don't know who who wrote it or where it came from or you did all the different things so it's it. Yeah, that's a little promotion about about the league itself. And to make it better we have to grow it you know that's that's where we're at. Yeah, absolutely. Ash, did you want to add to that. You, you're muted Ash. Yeah. Thank you. But you don't have to be a woman to join the League of Women Voters, obviously, since there are a few of us. And so we really encourage men to take a look at it. That's not what I wanted to say I want to say that, although that process is frustrating because we would like to speak up, at least some of us would. That I think one of the ways that the league gains some legitimacy is that you have to build the level of unity and support to positions, so that you bring together different perspectives, and you work it out. So that they, you come up with a forward moving statement that creates greater trust and unity. And I think that's very much at least the way I view what the committee can potentially contribute. Obviously as things moves forwards and there's a lot of, you know a lot of different perspectives and views and emotions and connected to this stuff it's really rocky and thorny. It's really important to try to find the glue that brings things together. So I wanted to say that, but the other thing I wanted to say has been very enthusiastically personally about the work to address the issues that were identified in that original report on the indicators of racial equity and justice. And that is the census and getting better information that can be used to develop a coherent plan for addressing these, not least, even in the area of housing and access to capital and equity for housing, and that's why I'm a firm believer that any real progress is going to be made because people know what the evidence is about the town, not just the nation, but the town and, and, and they can actually see some changes in important indicators as things go forward over time. And so, I hope that remains on your agenda as one of the things that is really important in reparations is getting the, getting the information that supports the move. Thank you, Ash. Yeah, absolutely. I want to note to two quick observations. So I think the idea that the Amherst League could be the catalyst for a state and national position on reparations is really, really exciting. And I know there are lots of different ways that people are thinking about this and still learning about this. I want to say, and of course this committee would want to discuss this but what an opportunity it could be for us to work together to support each other in that process if that does become something that the league begins to move toward. The other thing is in terms of education. We did a symposium way back when prior to this committee starting up reparations for Amherst did where we presented the research that reparations for Amherst did and also presented some of the research the league had brought in the indicators report. And so there are opportunities potentially for us to again present that information to our community and to build on it and add to it in addition to the work of the stolen beam which is just fantastic and I'm so glad that that's being embraced. So those are my thoughts but I do want to check in with Ms. Bridges, Dr. Rhodes, Yvonne, Dr. Shabazz, Pamela, any other comments. Please just go ahead or raise your hand or any thoughts, brainstorms. Dr. Shabazz. Oh, I see you. He can see the universe. Okay, he's bringing the love. Dr. Shabazz, did you want to speak. Thank you. I'll keep this brief and keep my video off just because of my connection at this moment. I would like to thank for the group for coming today and for giving us an update on where they are in supporting our work. This is as you've said, very, very encouraging. We need all hands on deck to move this process forward. Certainly the work at the national level as I come back from a country that's in a process now of establishing a national reparations commission. You're not at that point. Joe Biden has not moved to by executive order to create a reparations commission. But in Columbia, they are on their way to being the first nation with the background in slavery and anti-black racism to actually proceed to create a national commission that has been governmental support to do the kind of study work to come up with the with a reparative agenda that then in turn can inform national policy on the basis of the data that helps us to understand the harms, the inequities, the disparities. And so as I come back from a country that is poised to really begin this process, I should say there are countries that have gone a long way as well such as Guyana. And I was with the head of commission in Guyana. And so there are other places moving along in the Caribbean and in Latin America, but it infuses me with the sense that a possibility for the USA if we can actually get things moved along. So, you know, work in that regards work at a national level that that the local league here could stimulate with the within the National League. You know, this is all this is all very good. And this is all very, very necessary, particularly but with our local work. And as we move to our agenda, you know, we're really at a very important place, and we're treating a lot of help, whereby we can begin to get a process of registering the the hundreds of of year round embers residents and in a couple of weeks, also finding ways to reach out to the students that although a more changing population we still want to have them included in this process. There's a lot of work ahead of us, and we don't, we're going to need everything, all wind behind our sales in getting that getting that work done, and not not, you know, pursuing other kinds of tangents or other things right now. And we are on a clock, you know, to get certain things done by by June of next year so again, all for what you've for for this update and thank you for future work that you will do to support us. Thank you, Dr. Shabazz. Okay, I see it's 254 and I really look at this as a first conversation as a first opportunity to be together. I really appreciate all the members who took the time to be here today. I so appreciate the connection with Marcy and our previous conversation and continuing chair to chair to build the unity between our groups, and to support one another, and hope that we'll be able to find a time again in the future where as Dr. Shabazz says, once we are a little further along in figuring out what is needed in terms of reaching members of the black community and using that black census that I think Martha had pointed to that is really something that we're about to discuss in this meeting now to take that information that we that we were able to gather with the Dunahue Institute and begin to get out into the community. So, thank you all for being here very, very much. And, and we will certainly be in touch and feel free to reach out to us anytime, you know, in any of our emails or if you need an email just let Marcy know and she'll let me know and I'll also just quickly say that in addition to COVID I'm on my way to be leaving Amherst for seven months on Friday, and I will still obviously be connected to the committee but Martha Hanner is going to be taking over as chair during my absence so there's definitely ways to reach us either through me or through Martha and Michelle has our email addresses and you know how to find us you all pretty much. Yvonne we're Facebook friends so worst case you can you can message me on Facebook. Yes. Thank you very much here. Thanks very much for for having us. It means a lot. Absolutely same to us yeah okay. Okay. I will see you soon. Bye bye. All right. Wonderful. So, I think we should just do a quick check in here in terms of timing. I am going to call for public comment just to make sure we get that done and then I would like for us to be able to continue until 330 our folks available to do that today. Yeah, okay I see. I might need to step away for a minute but um yeah. Okay. Dr Rhodes and Dr Shabazz and Miss Bridges how does that work for you. Yeah, I just have to step away for about five minutes and then I'll come right back. That's okay. In about, I can do it in about 10 minutes. Okay. Yeah, that's fine. I'll be right back. Okay, good. Okay. So we just had in just call for public comment now so that we make sure we don't miss that. So if anybody would like to make public comment that's in the audience, please raise your hand now. During the public comment period I will recognize members of the public when called upon please identify yourself by stating your name, pronouns and residential address. So please do express your views up to three minutes and we will not engage but we will be listening closely. So please, if you would like to make public comment, please go ahead and raise your hand now and I will bring you into the room. I'm going to turn my camera off for one second so I can get my charger but public comment is open. Okay, I am not seeing any hands. So I am going to end the public comment period and now finally after many, many weeks of wanting to begin this discussion of community engagement and I think Dr. Ross actually really in his comments with the league sort of laid the foundation right there really of what is ahead of us. And I really wanted to sort of instead of coming with something laid out or you know, some proposal from my, and I just wanted to open this time up for discussion to see what folks were thinking about embarking on this process of getting out into the community and beginning to really engage members of the black community in particular. So if you have comments on this please raise your hand and we'll get the conversation going. Yes, Dr. Rhodes. Obviously it's really, really important that we move down the road with this project really quickly in a meaningful way. One of the thoughts that I have was, you know, when we say engage the community. We, what we do know is that we do know where African Americans and Amherst live. Not specifically but in certain sections of town sexual. We know, and we know the numbers. So the, the task becomes or how do you then reach out to those numbers and engage them. And, and so for me, the question is all right. Who's the Donny who is to successfully and, and they have specific kind of skills. I would like to see a survey of the African American community done by the Donny who Institute or anyone else but I assume the Donny instant. Mainly because we know them to have work work for us. And we know that what their skill set is. So I would like to see a survey and there are several, and I don't want to serve it it has 20 questions on. You know, I want to serve it it has at most five questions at most. And we need to move on that and expeditious matter to get those get that information as soon as possible. Thank you Dr Rhodes. And before I go to Dr Shabazz and even I'm going to go to Pamela. So actually you're welcome to go to Dr Shabazz and T von first my comment is in reference to the survey so you might want to hear from everyone before you come to me. Okay, that sounds good yeah and if you ever I know last time there was just a question about a note that you missed or something so just just talk at that. Thank you Dr Shabazz, even rather fun, I welcome you to go ahead. Ivan. Yes, so engagement tactics are like many folds surveys are, I think there are lots of multiple ways that we can get at what we need. Our goal is to engage as many people of color as we can, but also to engage the whole community so that we have partners that will spread the news and the information farther and wider than we can. And those are our allies, and others in other groups, businesses in the community so person to person is per is great doing surveys I think is certainly one way of getting at people. The other are these partnerships that would be with town committees like the one we invited, it could be town committees, it could be town departments, it can also be nonprofits in the region. As well as I think the big one our businesses, I think that that really reaching out to businesses not just black businesses but businesses in general, that will go a long way to getting more than a small group of people understanding and knowing what our committee is about so some of this is promo for what we're doing, like it gets the word out about what we're doing. There are more people who can spread the word. The sticky part is that our message has to be very clear and I think we need to, we need to work on what that clear message is when we're starting to reach out to people. And then the last way is for us to sponsor our own special events. If we do potluck dinners, if we do a concert that's under our name, or partnered with someone else, if we, you know, talk to the business improvement district if they're doing festivals or things outside we have a table, you know, that kind of stuff also goes a long way. So I guess I'm mapping it out because I feel like there's multiple ways of doing this and I think we should enlist all of these ways. It just means us as a committee, being clear about these different ways and portioning out the work, the tasks. You know, so I think that basically we should come up with a plan for all of this. Yes, a plan. I'm sure I missed something and other folks should chime in. No, I just wrote a list of like if I were doing it what would I do. And those are all the things that I would do. Yes, and I'm taking notes. I can email you the, I mean there's just three big areas that probably have subcategories. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Dr. Shabazz. Okay, thank you. So here's what I want to add a little bit new and I agree with everything that's been raised thus far. But I'd like to suggest and at the, there's a consensus here, I would be happy to work with with the chair and with folks in the, in the town, perhaps Brianna Sunrid or, or whomever. I like to ask people's thoughts here about an online registration portal. This is this would ask only a small set of questions in deference to what Dr. Rhodes was saying earlier, but essentially to the contact information for those that would register of their name of their of different addresses, ground address, physical address in Amherst, email address, cell phone contact if they wish to share that. And, and then the basic question of that they identified as an Amherst resident of African heritage of African descent. I would allow information below that to sort of, you know, maybe two additional questions, how long have you reside in Amherst. And secondly, you know, anything else about your specific characteristics of your ethnic heritage of your African heritage. And that's for so many generations from outside the US, Cape Verde, Jamaica, Trinidad, Columbia, all these places come to mind, but basically where you could further delineate aspects of your, your African heritage. But then basically that becomes the portal for individuals in town to self identify as being of African heritage and wishing to be informed and registered in this community process. This could be done through through a town of Amherst website. I, this is what I'd like to if there's agreement to this, explore with town staff, how we might set this up, how this would be managed. I can tell you in relation to Evanston, the data gets, you know, would be stored and have the actual reported information of name, address, identification as African, a black African American or of African heritage. And, but then in terms of any sharing out, this would then be shared out with a, with a, with a alphanumeric indication. So a person's name would never be shared as, as part of any list in terms of public records request or anything of that sort. All that would be shared is, is characteristics of the database perhaps in terms of, we have 400 people that have registered that are over that are 18 or over, and and then only say this alphanumeric code. If you ever look up Evanston in what they call their ancestors database of Evanston residents who are of African heritage, it gets put in this Excel spreadsheet that does not record their names, but only these alphanumeric codes that then of course for those who are delegated or designated to have access to that information, such as the ongoing reparations commission, they would have that. But again, from public records request or just to the general public, no one would have access to that registration list, only to the alphanumeric codes. I think this is a way in which people can take the step of coming to us of coming into this process. And for the future reparations commission that spins off. Following the conclusion of our work. This would be the way in which they would have an engaged portal, a portal of engagement that would register all those that that seek to to self identify. And if you are familiar with the, for example, the, the Darity Mullen work, they talked about how at the start of a national level. Program that you know this you would make that declaration I am of Africa I am black African American, and you'd have to prove it within 12 years of the start of the reparations program going 12 years back you have to offer proof that you identify. Well, this registration, at a local level, could be part of that as a way in which someone said in say, 2022, I am at I am designating. This is how I identify. And that could even be offered as part of the, the effort to prove African ancestry African American nests at the start of a federal reparations program so again, these things sort of fit in hand and glove but but that's my my proposal of an additional step that we can take. Thank you. Thank you Dr. Shabazz that is a fantastic idea. Um, so I see Ms bridges hands up so I'll go to Ms bridges and then I'll come back to you Pamela. Um, I think you answered my question afterwards because I was going to ask. How would the reparations going and we weren't going to individualize certain things so I just wanted to kind of clear that up if, if you're doing individual registration. How does that work and some people, you know, don't want to do that I spoke to the people in different states that, you know, they propose that and some people are kind of wary about it because, you know, prove it how anybody could do that or. And with here, you know people who has this information about us, you know, some kids are younger kids they may be 18 and they may know what they are but can't go back and prove it don't have the information. I was speaking to someone from Amherst College and they were saying pretty much the same thing that their students want to know their heritage and there's a lot of her students that just can't get there and don't have that information anymore so. I think he he kind of answered the question but I'm still kind of about it. I think that isn't an open question that we need to explore within this concept absolutely. So I'm assuming we're, I, maybe I'm wrong to assume Dr Shabazz but I think maybe you wanted to respond to Ms Bridges so if, oh, your hand is down now okay. Do you mind if I go to Pamela her hands been up a while and then we'll come back. Okay, great. Hi, I just wanted to point out a couple of things for the assembly to think about as you continue to make plans for how you would gather information and that is that there are at least three other boards in the town that are also going to be reaching communities of color around certain issues. The Human Rights Commission, the CSS Jake board, especially in regards to the residents oversight board the creation of that. And so I think it's very important that we have a coordinated effort, even though these are sort of distinct inquiries that you're going to make I would hate to see survey fatigue impact the information that's gathered from any of the board so I think it's a great idea to reach out to Brianna and think about ways in which we might coordinate the process of of this information and I also agree with with Yvonne that we're going to need multiple ways of gathering information and engaging, engaging residents so just as as you're continuing to have your discussions. Please keep in mind that there are going to be multiple boards, we're also going to seek to do community engagement with the same population. Absolutely, that I think that's really critical that we we think about that and think holistically about this. Because even in addition to those there are other surveys out there that may have some crossover you know so. Yvonne and then Dr Rhodes. So I'd love to sort of add to what Pamela said right now, which is that. Again, I typed up those things that I said before and I'll email it to you Michelle I don't know if I should email it to everybody email it to you so we can keep it as a list to refer to me and Pamela and Jennifer and then make sure it gets to everybody. Okay, so going to what you just said Pamela the the uniqueness of how we touch people will make it so that we can can get the information we need. So if we get clump you're right about coordinating the effort, but also using two or three different ways to get at the survey like the survey I feel like the survey may not be the first pass at us getting at people because like you said people get survey So maybe the first pass or that this is a strategy that we create where the first pass is really a more unique and personal way to reach at people so like I said we throw an event and we invite people to come we have dinner with them. Right we do something that's social that people will remember so that they when when we do say oh you're going to get this survey in your email or you're going to get you know you're going to have to do an online registration. Then folks will be like oh I'll look for that and then they will fill it out so it would be like if they get three surveys in the mail and one of them is from us and we had dinner with them, they're going to fill ours out. Okay I'm just saying. Or swag, people like swag. So if we make, if we make caps or something and we make pens and we hand stuff out to people and then we tell them later on watch for the survey. If they get three like I said if they get three in the mail and one of them is ours they're going to fill ours out first. Right so that there are strategies for how to get people to you know actually you know it's great to coordinate the effort and we should. But I think we also want to go the extra step and make some really more personal connections with people as much as we can to get as many people involved to participate. The one part I think we need to talk about maybe later on Dr Shabazz talked about an online registration and I think that that is about getting people to know that they will benefit from registration. The benefit is you will register and there might be something that you get back because you register. So people will register if they know they're going to get a housing subsidy or a lunch subsidy. You know what I mean if they're going if they feel like they're going to get something they'll register. But my question is the first question I'm sure people will ask me is do I have to be a current Amherst resident to be able to register. Because there's folks you know who have lived here 20 years and then they move to New York. Right. But you know they've lived here for you know so I think that even more like like what I said before about being accurate with our information. We need to figure out what what is accurate about who's eligible. Who are we asking to register. Are they folks who are still living in Amherst. They maybe they have a family home here. There are people who have lived like you said 20 or 30 years and now they live in DC or something. Are they not eligible. Our family members eligible. So let's say you know I I still live in Amherst right. But my son lives in New York City but he came up through the Amherst school system his whole life. So is he eligible. Right. So though I think those are the the gray areas that we need to really talk about because what could happen is someone says well I'm eligible because I think so. And they register but they're actually not really eligible then that's bad you know that's bad blood you know like that gives people a you know that that creates negative promo like negative energy and we don't want any of the negative energy. So we want to again be really clear about everything from the get go, especially since we're reaching out to people. We need to be really clear about that so I think we want to do that first. Yeah, absolutely. I think creating parameters for the registration is really, really important. And I just quickly want to add before I go on Dr. Rhodes and Dr. Shabazz that when I spoke with Kerry Spitzer at the Donahue Institute who helped us with the black census. She had made an identical suggestion to what Pamela is making in. I'll add that the Board of Health was also trying to reach out to residents of color and so there was the Board of Health there was the Human Rights Commission there's now the new committee so and then ourselves so if there is a way to coordinate where there's one survey that has a couple questions for each of those areas that's a strategy and I also agree though with what Ivan is saying and that the uniqueness of the way that we are reaching people and touching people and so at the end I'll sort of recap what I have in mind but let's go to Dr. Rhodes and then Dr. Shabazz. You know what is important to me is that information we get should be very valuable information and it should be credible information and it should be representative information. And that last word representative. I think that when one does a survey and you do it in a non representative way. When you get answers it only reflects the answers of those people who who took the survey. All right it doesn't represent the community. I'm really all for a representative randomized sample of African Americans in Amherst. I'm not for just a general survey that goes out to all African Americans. And then what we get back are the answers for those people who are and their answers are only representative of them. And so I don't. And that doesn't do us any good. So so one part survey I really want to represent a survey of all African Americans representative randomized survey in relationship to rep reparations. The same for the general population because we need to know how they feel. And what their thoughts are about represent reparations. So those are two things that are really really important to me. And if you people want to understand where I come from. I come from a quantitative quantitative research background. That's what I believe in. That's what my training is. And it doesn't mean that a qualitative study isn't is invaluable. In some ways they are very really valuable. And some people do both. But for me, the strength of a quantitative randomized representative survey is something that will benefit benefit this group. The most so I would be strongly arguing for that. Dr. Rhodes and when I spoke to Kerry, we talked about a representative randomized survey as you, as you stated, and it is a challenge. And I'm wondering if this group would be interested. By the way, I did invite Brianna to our meeting today, but she's on vacation. So I'm going to extend the invite for our next meeting, or perhaps Dr. Shabazz and myself and Pamela and Jennifer can get together with her. And have a conversation and then bring that information back to the group so that it's a little bit more formulated. I don't understand. What are you going to be talking to Brianna about? So let me, I'm sorry, I'm jumping a little bit. I just, I want to address what you said about the representative randomized survey and wondering if you would like for me to invite Kerry to what she has been, she has offered herself time and time again to come to our next meeting, if possible, to talk to us about what something like that would take Dr. Rhodes and how we might go about that. If she's willing to come to the meeting and spend some time with us, would this committee be open to having her as a guest to do that? There's a, we have a lot of work to do. Yep. And if we continue to use our meetings to have other people come and talk to us doing wasting valuable time. Yeah, it would be better if we had a subcommittee of people who want to do that. Set down with Kerry, get her thoughts and information on that and then bring it back to this committee. And that would make it a more efficient and effective use of our time. I totally agree with you. That's sort of what I was saying about Brianna. Would Dr. Rhodes, do you want to be that? Would you be willing to be that person to reach out to Kerry to have that conversation? Oh, most definitely. Okay, that would be fantastic. And then, and then, you know, once you've made contact with her, if you feel like you'll be able to bring it back in time for our next meeting, you'll let me know so I can create the agenda accordingly. And what I was suggesting with Brianna is that Dr. Shabazz would be the lead on that one. And I can be helpful there too. With Pamela and Jennifer and Brianna to talk about setting up, what is it going to take to set up and engage Amherst page that could include a registration portal that could include a survey that could include advertisements for an event. Those are some of the things that we've been talking about. So if there's no opposition to that, I would like for us to, to move forward with that in between meetings as well. I'm just going to interject and remind that if the subcommittee would constitutes a quorum, then you have to abide by the open meeting laws. You know, this working group has to be small and number so that they can can work together and then bring the information back. Yes, the reminder we don't, we don't like to hear what we need. So I think we'll be okay if Dr. Rhodes is on his own with Carrie they have a long standing relationship. I think if it's just Dr. Shabazz and myself meeting with Brianna and then of course, if somebody else wants to participate in any of either of those things and there's going to be more and I actually have something that I need to present to the committee today if possible that Paul has brought to my attention but I'm going to go. Dr. Shabazz had his hand up and then even your hand is still up is that. Okay, so let's go to you Dr. Shabazz. Very good. So again, I want to reiterate that that my idea is not a survey. My idea is an opportunity for the community the African heritage community to reach in to this work and into this process, as opposed to us reaching out to them. So I think we got to do both we have to have the outreach work with the events with the mailers the different strategies we're talking about here, but I think that if we embrace this portal idea, it's a way they can reach in and actually register and really keep me informed I want to be a part of this process I want to weigh in and then down the line, we can then, you know, judiciously find opportunities to survey that group, and then the integrity of that position will be based upon the actual goals that have that have registered in and sought to become a part of this community process. If we get 400 older 18 years and older of Amherst residents. And here I'm not talking about, you know, the Jeff Goldblum's who Jeffs who live right across the line and tell them I'm not talking about the people who grew up here but now they're living in New York. I'm talking about those who are living paying taxes are registered to vote that are a part of Amherst right here right now. I'm not saying if we get to 400 that to me blows away any randomized sample that's going to be a really strong representative number of the total. Okay, when you break down what we learned already from the work we had on the census, that's a very powerful number when you when you talk about 3400 or so in 2020 identified as African American, more than half of that was students students who probably all those who have graduated and gone. And then, and it's a totally different set of numbers that are there now. If you take out those that are under 18. You really get to a very small number of actual African descendant Amherst residents, and that's not a problem but we have to understand. I add this to the question of the surveying piece. Our chair and myself. We've talked with a an expert at this work at the University of Massachusetts Dr to test in Teta. And he actually has already been doing political surveys polling on reparations in Massachusetts in an analyzing basically from a group that does this work. And they buy, they buy the work from them so they already have this randomized pool. They don't have it down to the level of Amherst, because of the size of Amherst. They have it on a regional level of Western mass they can do, and they have the state, but they do not have it down to this company that they buy survey data from they do not have it down to the Amherst level because of of statistical problems of size. Okay, but we talked to them about whether it is possible, how it is possible to try and actually get at a survey of a town this size for the town at all, as well as for the African American part of of the town. And there are some immense challenges. You can throw out terms like random sample, but to actually then do it. There are real problems for status for for this kind of statistical work with a population. This small, but I just wanted to put that out there to say, that's some of the challenge we're going to face on this. But the portal piece is different from the question of survey, the portal is about having members residents of Amherst who who explicitly state and that they this is how they identify and ask to be a part of this process. What kind of things can they get in return. They can get information about specific health issues from our health board related to disparities, relevant to to African Americans they can get things about housing, they can get things about immigration, crime, crime and criminal justice, the different harm areas by registering in the process but we can talk more about how to to spend this as we reach, you know, share the portal within the community. But this is how this is what I'm suggesting as a way that we actually offer the community to self identify and to engage with us in this process. Thank you. Yeah, and having that black census and being able to send a postcard out into those areas of the community asking for people to register if they wish. So we can do an in and reach out reach in, you know, kind of thing. Dr Rhodes and then a lot. So anyway, America, Dr Shabazz, getting 400 people of black folks and Amherst registered. That is a good number. And it's not representative just that there are 400 people. It is possible. If we have those 400 people to do a randomized representative sample of that 400. We can do that. That's it. That's a whole different thing. And that's something that can be done. It'll be beautiful to get 400 African Americans in town who are on that portal. That would be wonderful and that and from that, that is a database in which all kinds of information can can be gotten from that group. For me, if there are 400 African Americans who are registered and we want to survey that group. You can randomize the sample and that you don't have to sample all of it after have to ask the question to all of them, you could just do a randomized sample of the 400 anyway. But the challenges, the challenges of doing that. And by the way, the university of Massachusetts, there used to be a social and demographic research organization out of this sociology department. And my great friend who was now passed away, Dr right led that. And I work with that group and their specialty was surveying populations of small towns. And they had this and the sort of techniques, the ability to do that is there, obviously if it wasn't ability wasn't there to do that. And turn it without the, you know, people said there are all these challenges. What challenges are there to doing a representative sample of Amherst. I mean, my God, if there were. It's possible. The group we're talking to is out of going out of political science. And that's Ray LaRosha and to Tash and Teta. And yeah, it's possible I'm just saying that but they're there challenges into in terms of how you do it right. Yeah, but you are all I'm saying is the techniques, the methodologies, they're proven, they've been done over and over again throughout this country. All over the place every day. And it can be done. And so one of the things Dr roads if you could speak with Carrie about. I think if I'm remembering our conversation, it was actually it was it was really came down to the economics of doing it and the cost to do it. The way that you're suggesting is going to be at a higher cost of course than to do it. So we'll have to weigh that when we think about, you know, what we're doing here. And so, Yvonne is your hand up now for. Yeah, I guess I have a question and a comment. I feel like what Dr Shabazz has suggested is a wonderful first effort for us that we get started with it right away because if we get those 400 people then we have a really great beginning. Right. So I don't know how we can get started with that there are some things that I know need to be taken care of which is like where this portal how it would get put together. What questions would where does the data live, you know, the maintenance of the site itself or the or the surveys do we do some research on, you know, to make sure that everyone who's registered is legit, you know, for lack of a better word, make sure that, you know, that that that that we can actually review and maybe do a little bit of research on the data or whatever we collect. So I think that, you know, if there's going to be an expense, or if there is going to be an investment of time, this seems to me like it's a really great one to start with. And I think at the next meeting, maybe we want to talk about it, you know, flesh it out a little bit more so that we can move ahead with it quickly. I think I think this is one thing that it's a no brainer it's not I don't think it's going to be as difficult to get it started. And it's a good first start a good first effort. Yeah. Absolutely. And we will, what's that Dr. I said I said I have I have to leave. Okay. One thing. Dr. Dr. Bazzy bond, that portal, if getting portal information, one of the things that we need to do when we do that is market that portal, because if we don't mark, it'll never be used. See you all later. Dr Rhodes, can you stay 30 more seconds. Can I just I want you to hear this can you say for 30 more seconds I'm planting a seed for our next, our next discussion. And I agree with what you just said and Dr Shabazz and I will get some information from Brianna on that but what I wanted to tell you is that I spoke with Paul after our last meeting. And Paul expressed that there were folks in the community. I wanted, I think folks that would not identify as people of color, that have thoughts about, you know, whether or not we should be doing this how the money is being spent there's a school project there's all sorts of other things going on and what I want to ask this question and this is not to answer for now is, where are we in the process of taking in feedback from members of the community that do not identify as people of color, and do we have thoughts about whether that should occur anonymously. I don't want to handle those sorts of those sorts of pieces of feedback that are starting to sort of bubble up, but that there isn't a channel by which this committee has set up for that to happen. To answer it, I'm just planting the seed now for us to think about. I feel very strongly personally that we need to focus on reaching the black community right now, and focusing all of our efforts and we have an email address, if people want to reach out but it's about, you know, so let's let me stop there but I planted the seed I think we should create a statement and then send that out but I think we should talk about that at the next meeting. Perfect. Perfect. That's what I think I think it's easy. I don't think it's drama. Because my initial reaction was it's none of their business, but actually I pulled that back and said, yeah, I think information is good to share and having that information out there is what we should do so I think next meeting we should talk about that. Okay, I'll add that to our agenda and definitely to talk about it because the chatter that's going around town about reparations. We have to hear that and formalize the ways of hearing it. Yeah, yeah, it's not just from African Americans but from the other sections of the community we have to do that ASAP. Thank you all. See, yes. Thank you, Dr. Rhodes. Yep. Alright, so we are going to fall under a quorum here so we really can't continue anyway. So I'm going to just hope I will send out an email I'd like for us to meet next week again at this. Actually, I don't know if I can meet next week at this time. Let me send an email with some times for everybody to respond to okay. Yvonne, it looks like you might have something to add. Not sure. No, no, I'm just looking at my calendar and I agree I might not. I don't know if I'm going to be available, but we can try it for next week. Okay, I'll send an email and we'll figure something out. And I thank everybody if there aren't any other comments. Thank you Pamela for being here and thanks to everyone and I will let me just see what time it is I'm going to call the meeting closed at 341pm. And thank you. Good meeting. Bye.