 Welcome once again to the breakfast here on Plus TV Africa. Our first major conversation for today is going to be, you know, in this space of security. The federal government has officially declared bandits as terrorists. And this of course is something that a lot of Nigerians had been calling for for many years. It took, you know, quite a while, you know, and maybe a little bit of paperwork before it eventually was done. The questions have been really, you know, too little, too late, or better late than never. And also, what the relevance of this move really is. This morning we're speaking with a security expert, Mr. Roy Okideviye, who's joining us via Zoom. Good morning, Mr. Okideviye. Thank you so much for your time. Thanks for joining us. Good morning. It's a pleasure to be with you. Great to have you on the program. Let's, you know, of course ask the big question here. And that is what exactly is the relevance in the nomenclature? Well, you see, we are government. Let me put it like that. They shy away from professionalism. And those of us that have opportunities to have some knowledge of global terrorism, there are institutions of terrorism. Okay, I'm not sure they were consulted, but if you actually talk to core professionals, they will tell you that bandits are not terrorists. Okay, terrorism is purely for those that have a kind of agenda. They have their own kind of structure. They are organized. They have global allegiance. You know, then bandits are mostly maybe breakouts. So if you look at the bandits, you see that some of them are broke out from the terrorist group because of the internal conflict that went on in the terrorism world. And some of them are actually hoodlums around communities that saw that there was lawlessness opportunity because our political structure has gone into political terrorism of violence and intimidation. So whoever wants to have political big wiggle opportunity must have a lot of talks and other wielding weapons, women being around him. So you can see that the agencies have been intimidated, the institutions have been intimidated. So if you say bandits are terrorists, then you are shy away from the opportunities to actually deal with the terrorism as it is and deal with banditry as it is. So if the government is as weak as getting into mopping up all of this together, it's going to be more hectic and difficult and rigorous to actually separate all of this when you want to apply the law. It's easy to do media trials when we arrest people, we just parade them on media. But when you take them to court, you must actually begin to delete all the activities and impute penalties upon the criminality aspect of the activity. And looking at it the way we have our judicial system, I don't know how they are going to deal with it because we have terrorism running for years in Nigeria and I have not seen or heard anyone that has been actually sentenced for terrorism. Look at the underwear bomber that was arranged in the U.S. Look at where he is today. You know, so many of them are in Gestapo prisons and all of that. But in Nigeria here, the terrorist council is arrested. The next thing we start doing connotations, ethnic connotations, religious connotations and all of those imputes of sentiment. Where is the law to decide what is terrorism, what is banditry and apply tenacity? Okay, so let's also look at this argument that has been put out right now. The argument is that you have these peasants, I mean, you have bandits declared terrorists. And some peasants are saying, you don't have a group of peasants who have come to the acceptance of saying that we are bandits. And so how do you now declare bandits terrorists? Because no one has owned up to say, they haven't come together. There's no organization, there's no acceptance. Just as you would have the likes of the iPop, although arguments surrounding the declaration of prescription of them as terrorists is on the one hand. But in that, what are your thoughts regarding the fact that these are not a group of peasants that have come together? It's not a group. There's no acceptance. There's no structure in all of this. Okay, let me follow this route so that we really understand where our government has missed it. Now, if you look at terrorism, they have an agenda. Sometimes, I think Boko Alam said they don't want Western education. You know, ISIS and all these international leaders, you will hear their agenda. You will see their flag. You will see their social, their design. They control money, they control finance. They have hierarchy. But when you now come to say, Banji, we are just shying away from actually applying the width of government on lawlessness. Okay, look at IPOB. IPOB A and IPOB B. IPOB A said they came out to fight for the rights of Easterners. And that they invited Manji Kanu and they are protesting. And it took the law into his hands and he started his own. So we now have IPOB A saying they are not with the violent catchment they are discussing. We have IPOB B with Manji Kanu. Then all of a sudden we had ESN, Eastern Security Network. And now we are saying that governors and ex-governors are confessing that they are the ones raising this lawlessness down to fight against government and themselves for Bandetta and XYZ. Look at Banji 3. If you go and discuss with the bandits in Kaduna, they cannot take a peace treaty with you, with the bandits in Zamfara. Even in Kaduna, you have different groups and they have no allegiance with one another. So Bandetta criminal elements deal with them decisively. Let there be a design. One is that you are holding weapons without the law. The second one is you are controlling government in non-police areas. You public disturbance, kidnapping and robbery. Those are the laws that we use to strangulate these people and begin to design costs, special costs that we speak in judgment and create deterrents. Then if you go to terrorism, there are global laws for terrorism. If a terrorist runs away from Nigeria and goes to the US, you can apply the global law of terrorism and bring that man back to Nigeria. If a bandit runs away to the US, he will be just claiming oppression from the government. So you need to really catch these people in their different kinds of crimes and apply judicial PD punitive measures. That is a state government. That is a government that wants to really put the space in peace and allow these people to do their business, to live together as one. And believe in democracy that we say we practice. The report also mentioned that they were going to now be treated or charged with the Anti-Terrorism Act 2011. So I'm guessing that there is some understanding as to why or what the plan is with the Nigerian government. But I also want to ask you, for those who would argue that this is a good move because it gives the Nigerian government the right and the authorities to bombard them and to hit them as hard as they would be hitting the likes of Boko Haram and Iswap and whatnot. Is that a fair argument? Look, let me tell you sir, there are some Nigerians who are taking their time to read. There are some Nigerians who are taking their time to research. And this set of Nigerians are private security practitioners. There are Nigerians in agencies also that are taking their time to study these things. And this set of people in the agencies, they are zipped off by the constraining laws in every agency, the army, the DSS and whatever. So if you are looking at 2023 and you are now coming to, since 2011, we have the terrorism law sir. Since 2011 sir, people have been dying in Nigeria by extravagant lawlessness, by so many groups of people. And they have this audacity because they can intimidate agencies by their goons in power who have pushed themselves as political bigwigs. And due to the intimidation that we do in Nigerian politics, there is no Christian, there is no Muslim, my brother. Well, we may have lost Misaki Dewey once again as we try to reconnect. Remember the conversation is about the Nigerian government naming bandits as terrorists and of course we are trying to unwrap some of all those angles and see where we may have gotten it right or may have gotten it wrong. Some of the questions that have been asked are very important and one of the things that you mentioned is they have not been able to identify themselves as bandits. So how do you know exactly who you are naming a terrorist organization? And something I hope that we can also get to speak on is what then would be the approach because these aren't petty thieves. These aren't the regular armed robbers that you set up sars for. These are people with high caliber weapons and whatnot. I've seen a couple of videos that were allegedly emanating from those bandit camps and they have really, really sophisticated weapons that you don't expect the regular legos police to be able to handle. You know that report doesn't just, you know, it also includes those who are abating. I mean, those who would give information informants and every other person. So it therefore means that if you were found acting contrary to the terrorist act of 2011, therefore you will be held accountable. But the next question I'd like to put out to him will be what should the Nigerian government have done because you have a lot of people who have actually created this government for not prescribing these bandits as terrorists. And so now we're arguing that you also have another school of thought saying, OK, as beautiful as this sounds and very brilliant as it is that you have prescribed these peasants because you can't say they are a group of peasants. There's no cohesion. They don't have a structure. Because if you want to begin to look at some of these terrorist organizations, they have linkages with other international terrorist groups. And so these persons are not very coordinated. So how do you now prescribe them as terrorists? So that's on the one hand. But what should the government have done? Those who were arguing that the government had taken too much time. They should have been done a long time. And now the government is here. So what should the government have done prior to this time? Now the government, because it feels like the government has actually yielded to the cry of the people over time. And some persons are also saying that you could just be another political move ahead of 2023 elections just to paint a better picture of the party, the ruling party, however. But I'm hoping that this is some of the questions that we can answer. And like you have constantly mentioned, and the question that we're putting out is with the prescription of bandits, whether or not they are a group or they are individual or they don't have, yes, what difference does he make for us? How does it translate to prosecution? I mean prosecution, crashing of this bandit. How does it translate into crushing them by the military and every other security apparatus that we have in the country? Because like he has also mentioned, he constantly talked about the laws that we have already in Niger that have been enacted and how come we have not implemented these laws? There are laws that should take care of this because this is a criminal act. I mean that you wake up one day and kill somebody for no, whether you have a cause, you don't have a cause to kill anyone. And if anyone has offended you, that's why you have a government. Even if you do, I mean, you know, there's a government, there's a system. And that's why you have the police and that's why you have all of that, that you don't take the laws into your hands. So we don't leave, you know, in, what do you call it again? We don't leave in a zoo, even in the zoo, I'm sure the lions are coordinated. In the wild. Yeah, exactly. Even in the wild there's still some coordination. But one of the things, you know, that he started with was talking about how we, I completely lost my train of thought there. But, you know, the importance of giving them a name, and yes, he was speaking about the failure of the security architecture in the country. And so because we've seen that that has failed, you know, we can instead just group everybody as terrorists and bombard them and do and what not. But it really, and that's one of the things that I mentioned yesterday with Mr. Nyayitok, you know, that do we necessarily need to take all those routes? You know, do we need super-tocano, do we need some of all of that? When we have security agencies and security set up, security structures, that should be able to gather intelligence. I'm talking about every form of security structure and agency that is in existence in Nigeria. The Army does not always have to be the answer. Mr. Okedevi, welcome back. Thank you, thank you very much. Yeah, so I just listened to your analysis about the last discussion. We are totally in sync. So please go on. I mean, yeah, I wanted you to wrap up with, you know, with regards to the argument that it's a good thing because now the government can use every resource available to hit them the same way that they were attacking the Boko Haram and ISWAP and, you know, other terror organizations. So is that a fair argument to make? Well, thank you very much. You see, I'm totally grateful with your analysis and I see that you really see the discussion that we are following into. Now, if you look at the Tukano that we just bought, you know, the justification for the Tukano to be used is that we are going to meet international human rights standards. So if we want to use the Tukano for any of the attacks, it is to meet international human rights standards. So we quickly agreed to say, OK, they are banding to be able to use the Tukano. My dear brother, if you use the Tukano and you bombard this forest, these same people will disintegrate back into the society. And the society does not have single ISI of trust in the government. So they will disintegrate back into the society. The society lacks resilience. The society is intimidated already. So when they disintegrate, they re-circuit, they regroup, and they reassemble in another own police area and continue government and continue attacks. So we don't have the other agencies being strengthened enough to articulate this kind of withdrawal system, to reassemble this system and attack. So that is one. So the second thing is, after you use the Tukano and you bombard all of those places, what is the reintegration process? Recall that we have IDP in camps for years. And some of those communities have been sent, so have been taken over. But no state governor is trying to do a reintegration. Okay, that is the integration that you are doing. As we re-awakened the farming business, as we re-awakened the fishing business, the headers, and every other business that you think should help our economy. Because if security kills the economy, security activities are supposed to revise the economy, build trust, and create communities that are vibrant and hospitable. So if you use the Tukano now and save their bandits, you see, we are always reacting. This is a government that has lost focus on the key indicators to quickly harness security inputs and reduce insecurity. We are going reactive all the time. And this is another reactive measure, claiming that bandits are terrorists to use your Tukano and intimidate people towards 2023. Who is responsible there? Okay, you are a security expert. I'd like to find out from you what should the Nigerian government have done, because you would also want to agree with me that there was a public outcry that, including the National Assembly, asking that bandits be prescribed terrorists. None of that has happened. But what should they have done? Look, my sister, we have been talking about this, what they should have done. See, it's the same government. We just go to plus TV as Africa YouTube channel and review all the discussions with private security practitioners. These are information given for free. So many private security practitioners are even tired to come to it anymore because the death rate is alarming, is shocking, and is traumatic. Now, if you have seen cases where military men have run bandits posts, what was the closure on those things? If you see cases of bandits confessing that there is a mole in the police, in the army, in the deities, that gave them intelligence to create opportunities for them to deal with agencies. What was the closure? You see, this government is insensitive to the plight of the agencies that are the front line because if you are sensitive to that, you will make sure that they have intelligence sharing, intelligence guarding, and deployment of attacks, not a reaction. That is one. The second thing is, we have a judicial process. We have a criminal justice system in Nigeria, within IDP camps. Many males could have been imputed, and those males would discuss with the returnees, and a lot of intelligence can be raised. So many times we have discovered where the bandits are in communities. Some community heads are complicit, but there are some that used to report that they have seen suspicious movements. Some cities used to report that we saw suspicious movement in Kaduna, in place of you, and the next day, you will hear attacks. 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 people are killed. Who was giving that intelligence? Who did not react to that intelligence? Who did not do what they are supposed to do? What are the penalty? We keep putting rampage in square holes, and the life that I lost is a magnitude, is a calamity, and somebody must be taken up for the lack. Because it just feels like the government just hid the cry of the people, and so it doesn't look like it's a government that does not pay attention to the cry of Nigerians. The opportunity to pay attention has been closed by agreement, and a lot of agreement is made in politics, especially Nigeria that practices political terrorism. You know, if you go to our political campaign, what do you see? Bloodshed. It's always aimed like that. In the front of journalists like you, with teachers' videos as evidence, in the front of security agencies, in Nigeria in uniform, with global footages, and nothing is done. Why? Because political terrorism is our greatest skill. Ballot bot snatching, and all of that intimidation. Now, how do you feel as a government when you have not appeased all of these people that helped you to unlawfully get into power? Look, it's not about APT. It's not about PDT, my dear. So many people in APT have moved to PDT. So many in PDT have moved to APT. They moved daily. It is a matter of the elite in government, in politics, settling themselves, and leaving the masses to die. Look, it's so sad. It's so sad. Mr. Okedevia, if the Nigerian government didn't declare these persons as terrorist organizations, I also want you to speak as a security expert now with regards, you know, the approach of these persons. They may not have an agenda. They may not have a motive, as the group does. But they have similar approach. They have similar ammunition. They have similar atrocities. In the news this morning, it was stated on the punch, 200 people were killed in Zamfara. And that's breaking news on the punch this morning. So they have similar approach. Maybe even more deadly currently than the Boko Haram. So what can the Nigerian government do instead, tactically, in order to end these, to stop these people? You remember that during oil bonkers, there are special courts. Sometimes there are cases in Nigeria that the government will just come and create a special court. Even in election mass practices, we have special CD courts. Now, the people that attack and kill, they are crony. They are team members. They are gangsters. They are arrested. They are in detention. What information was extracted from those that have been arrested? Did they tell you where their other colleagues are gathered? Did they tell you how they get weapons? Even on media tryers, they say how they get weapons. Did they tell you how they move? Have you had taxes from farmers and headers and fishermen? Have you had, how they go to communities, serve them letters, that the community should pay $10 billion, $200 million exercises just to build themselves? The same community. So if you have had what investigations did you put into play a non-intelligent, active, vibrant intelligence to attack where these people are, arrest them, and do punitive measures. One of the greatest difference to crime is punitive measure. If I commit a robbery, okay, I'm a gangster, I'm a bandit, and the next thing I see my brother on TV is facing a court. And the court is interpreting the crimes he has committed. And I'm like, wow! And they are saying he's sentenced to death. And I see four of them being killed by the Nigerian Government judicial system, not extra judicial. Judicial system. It's enough deterrents for me because I will immediately begin to change my ways. Then the civilian population, the community will begin to become called enough to forward enough information for the agencies to pick them wherever they are, put them before the court with evidence, and sentence them to death. Once you begin to do all of that because I'm robbery in Nigeria, murder is dead. If they commit murder, it's dead. So there's nothing like we are waiting for a new law. We are just lazy, we are tactically putting the community to intimidate the generality of Nigerians with all of these incidents. We must apply the law. Thank you. So at this point now the next question would be whose responsibility is it because there are several arguments that the judicial system the judicial system is very slow in Nigeria in metting justice and all of that. So where does the problem lie now? Does it lie in the hands of the police or those who should arrest and ensure prosecution or in the judicial or the justice system? Okay, let me tell you that I don't want to say President Muhammad Ubuwari I would like to say the executive because in Nigeria we have the legislature we have the judiciary and we have the executive. And the executive has come many times to say they are silent in the judiciary they are silent in the constitution for national interest for national interest. So it is the same executive that is supposed to follow through with all the tables that are comfortable to any death of a Nigerian. If a Nigerian dies it's so sad that they don't understand the meaning of the life of a Nigerian. Meanwhile, some of us went into the military to die to protect one life 10, 30, 40, 50 soldiers and die to protect one life. You remember when an American was kidnapped in Nigeria and Nigeria and all those border towns they came to remove that life. So if the executive cannot look at it properly why will information get to you DSS or police or whoever what did you do with the information? If the executive cannot look at it and say the judiciary you were given all relevant information and evidence by the agency why did you not pass punitive measures? If the executive cannot look at all the malpractices by our institution that are supposed to put this country at peace and stable then we don't have an executive. Alright, Mr Akidebe find a question for me would be in your assessment do you think Nigeria as a country because it did feel somehow when you mentioned that we've had an anti-terrorism act since 2011 that we are still using and yet we cannot necessarily point at any person who has been arrested by the media of terrorism in Nigeria as a sponsor or as a terrorist an actual terrorist unsentenced to jail there's really none we can't really point at any person who is a terrorist leader a Boko Haram leader, ISWAP or anything that has been arrested along with its cronies and have been sentenced to life imprisonment or what not from your assessment do you think that Nigeria is serious about the fight against insurgency and terrorism are you really just overwhelmed with the many loopholes here and there and with the firepower of these persons or would you say otherwise that we're not just even serious until its election time Well, I like the way you put it okay, being overwhelmed and being serious now the I would want to say Nigeria has been irresponsible towards the insurgency situation if you take responsibility then you are responsible so I want us to understand that word if you don't take responsibility then you are irresponsible you can be an irresponsible father you can be an irresponsible boss so if you look at the beginning of all these travels we were the ones that were pampering it you remember and Gumi came out to start speaking for Banji you remember when everybody was looking at this that he's a medriator you cannot be a medriator if either of the parties did not call you in and if you are in I'm a chartered medriator from the Institute of Chartered Mediators in Nigeria I'm a fellow in that institute there are very senior members of the Institute of Chartered Mediations now Gumi is not a member of that institute I don't know if he's a medriator by training but I can see that in those skill and divide situations where maturity and governance we take into cognizance the dilapidation of security situations he has brought them up and now he's warning the government that as he has declared them terrorists they are setting war and he's working free but setting all that things we come out and say this is wrong this is wrong and you invite them now you are creating a divide where people will begin to see the insecurity of government so even if you are sincere you must show it by action and action means you must be balanced there is peace wealth not unfair that makes up Nigeria so anything that you want to do must be balanced I like looking at all of this our constraints because my dad is a dog my grandmother is Jebu my wife is Ibo so where will I begin to hold as a catchment so I tell people when you hold a space you are organizing the other space so your question goes that the government is irresponsible so all of this is because they take responsibility they will tell one another believe it in the north in the south in the east anybody that dies from insecurity is a Nigerian that has died and once you begin to believe and work like that you will begin to see that there will be balanced peace, balanced punitive measures and balanced laws for everyone Roy, Okidevia from all your you know wealth of experience it's always very interesting speaking with you and hearing your perspective on security issues thank you very much for joining us this morning and looking forward to speaking with you again as always thank you very much stay with us Wally Scott joins us next we are going to be talking sports the African couple of nations comes up in just a few days what exactly are we to expect that comes up next