 From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of DockerCon Live 2020 brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. Okay, welcome back everyone to the DockerCon 2020 hashtag DockerCon20. This is theCUBE virtual coverage with Docker on their event here. We're in the studio in Palo Alto. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. We're here with a great guest to talk about Docker, desktop, the Microsoft relationship and the key news that's coming out. Bendesson Pergot, she's the product manager for Docker desktop. Ben, great for coming on. Thanks for spending the time with me. Thanks for having me, I really appreciate it. So obviously this virtual conference, we wish we could be in person, but given the state of affairs, we're going to do remotely, but the momentum Docker has is phenomenal. It's always been great with containers. It's the number one downloaded app around for developers, Microsoft just had their build conference which was again virtual as well, or digital as they say, it's interchangeable, but clear momentum now with Docker as containers actually is the standard. You guys are doing great. What's the key news out of the Microsoft world? People missed it last week with MS build. Yeah, so last year build Microsoft announced WSRT, Windows subsystems Linux 2. The original Windows subsystems Linux that gave a mapping between the Windows kernel and the Linux kernel, which worked reasonably well, but it just didn't provide the same sense of native Linux experience. Last year they announced Windows subsystems Linux 2. WSRT provides an actual Linux kernel on the Windows machine, and we've been working hard with Microsoft over the last year to integrate Docker desktop, the main desktop application for working with containers with WSRT. A build this year, Microsoft have gone on and announced that WSRT is going to have a few new features. So it's going to have a convention like Graphical, Linux applications, you've got access to the file system, the installation is going to become a lot slicker, which I guess is a PM, I'm quite excited about that bit. The most exciting announcement is that they will be bringing GPU support to WSRT, which means that we'll be able to provide GPU support through Docker desktop for container workplaces, for people that are working on ML or machine learning or AI work through containers on Docker desktop for Windows, which is really cool, because we've never been able to do that before. So this is just the first GPU support on Microsoft Windows for Docker with Docker? Yeah, it's the first GPU support for Docker desktop on Mac or Windows. So previously, the advisor hasn't passed through the GPU, pretty much, which meant that we couldn't access it from Docker desktop. So Docker desktop is sort of a lightweight VM that runs a Docker engine, which is a tunnel lighting for you. But we limited for what we could get access to from the hypervisor. Now, Microsoft are having this theory, giving us access for the first time, we can actually, we can have a go through. Not to go on a side tangent here, but you know, there's all these virtual events, and I was watching some of the build stuff as well, as well as us media streamers and doing stuff. You can see people's home rigs, and you talk to any developer, video streamer, or anyone who's working remotely, if you don't have the best GPUs in there, I mean, this has just become, I mean, quite frankly, you need the GPUs. So this is important. It's not only from a vanity standpoint performance, having that support, I'm going to want the best GPUs. I'm always going to be upgrading my machine for that extra power. What's the impact? What does it mean for me as a developer? Is it increased stuff? What's the bottom line? As a developer, it means you actually have access to it. So traditionally, when you're doing workloads, on the CPU, you've got minimal amount of parallelization you can do. When you're running workloads for an AL development, you have a lot of parallel processing going on to do your model training. So in an AL development cycle, you're likely to have your application, which you're going to use to produce a model, and you're going to have training data. Taking that training data and producing a model requires lots of parallel processing, which is taking all of those calculations and doing and producing different final weightings. Doing that on the CPU has to be done in a serial fashion rather than parallel, which is hugely not intensive. It takes a really long time. Whereas on a GPU, you can do all of that in parallel, which massively reduces the amount of time it'll take to run those training functions, either just straight up in Linux or running them in a container, which as a lot of people are looking at running containerized workloads. That's how I first, but the first team that I was on that actually used Docker, I was working in Amazon or Alexa, and my team picked up Docker doing some of our ML workloads there. And that was my first experience, so even then my team back now will be excited to see this happen. Yeah, I mean, ML workloads, automations could be critical of that performance. Okay, let's get into some of the momentum with Microsoft, you guys have, obviously builds over, we're here now at DockerCon. There's news. Could you share some of the tidbits for kind of what's being talked about now with Docker and DockerCon? Yeah, absolutely. So along with everything else we've been doing, we've been partnering with Microsoft to try and make the best experience generally with Docker Desktop, and with WSL2 and with VS Code. They've been working closely with Microsoft guys to actually try and improve our experience on Windows as it is today, and to improve some of those integrations with VS Code as well. So working with the VS Code team on the Docker plugin for VS Code, make sure to give our feedback and to hear feedback from those guys on the areas and the issues they're seeing with people with Docker Desktop, and to really try and produce the best experience we can on Windows. The end to end from going from sort of local running all the way through to actually trying to do that first push, that first run on the cloud, using that. So what are some of the new product management processes and customer support things that you guys are doing? This comes up a lot. Obviously, we had a great conversation around shifting left with security, that's great news there. You start to see a lot of this added value for developers, one of them support, right? So how do I get things I need? And from a customer standpoint, it's kind of a moving train in this world. I mean, it's getting only better and better from a developer standpoint, but there's more complexity, it's got to be abstracted away. You got this new abstraction layers developing, you got automation. How does the customer get the support they need in the same agile way that developers are cranking out code? It's a really good question. It's something I think we're still working on as well. So we're not even trying to work out. One of the big things I'm trying to work out is how do we make it easier for people to get started with Docker? And how do we also make sure with the things we build, we don't sort of leave a cliff edge instead of the learning part. You don't get to a certain point in an easy process and then the next step takes you straight up a cliff. That's not useful for anyone. So producing those paths and those ways for people to learn and actually progress is something we're really trying to work out how to make it natural to go through the first experience all the way through. From an actual support perspective, the other thing we're looking at to function support people is we're trying to do more things in the open. We're really trying with Docker to bring as many of the new features and pieces we're developing. We're trying to actually do that in the open with community visibility so that if people really want it fixed, they can open a PR and they can help us. The last thing that my team released for that was our Docker GitHub Actions. It's great as we had someone raise an issue, could you do this? Someone else opened a PR and we nudged it. So to a certain extent, you sort of got the one side which had you on board in this ever-growing sprawl and keep learning. The other side is how do you fix forward when you find an issue? And that one, we're really trying to work with the community a lot more than we have over the last couple of years. Awesome, so the folks watching, hit them up on Twitter. He's the product manager for Docker Desktop, among other things. Oh, you guys are very transparent. So you got your Twitter handle in the lower third. People can chime in or just jump on the chat. We'll follow up and get to you the info. Final question for you, Ben. As you look at this reality we're in, there's kind of a holistic kind of moment now where people are kind of realizing the new realities here. You're looking at the, you get the keys to the kingdom with Docker Desktop. You got some momentum with Microsoft, the developer roles moving fast and fast as the headroom increases for capabilities with automation and ML, you mentioned a few of those things. GPU is now available. What's the future look like for these developers? Next short, medium, long-term, what's your view as you look out over the landscape? Because you got to look at the product roadmap, you're engaging with the community. Can you share some insight into how you're thinking about Docker Desktop going forward? Yeah, absolutely. So I think we're at a really interesting point as you say, which is that if you look at sort of a lot of the developer surveys that have sort of come out over the last, the last like six months, six to 18 months, the things like CICD are gaining momentum, things like orchestration for containers are gaining momentum. And we're kind of, if you think about it, crossing the CASM model, we're just past the early adopters now, kind of into the early majority and we're going to start to move over the next few years into the late majority. What that really means is that people may have been using more or two of these technologies. Maybe you've been using cloud, maybe you've been using Edge, maybe you've been using containers, maybe you've been using CICD, maybe you are using orchestration, maybe you're not, maybe you've got a microservice application, maybe it's sort of in the model. What we're really going to see is we're going to start to see all of these changes intersecting and overlapping. The people who are picking up one or two of these will start to pick up all of them. And that's only going to happen as we move into sort of the majority of users. So from a what's coming, it's sort of a lot of those things that you can see the best practice and the ideal, develop a set up to a beautiful CICD, going to an orchestrated environment, with a microservice architecture. We're going to see a lot more of that becoming the norm. But I think along with that, we'll also see a level of recognition coming along that a single microservice alone doesn't provide value. And that it's going to be sort of those groups of services that provide the user outcome. And that's where I'm quite focused as a PM, which is an authentication service is great, but it doesn't provide value unless you can get access to something after you attend. It's been interesting, the new job, the new job is all about developer experience. This is really the core mission. I mean, since the sale of the piece of Mirantis, Docker has retrenched and reinvented, but stayed core to its principles. What, just share with the developers who will be watching that are coming back into the ecosystem. What is this new Docker vibe? Share your thoughts. The new Docker vibe is about working in the open and it's about solving problems for developers. The original goal of Docker was to make it easy to package and ship it was to reduce developer friction. As we move towards sort of the enterprise space, we've worried more about ops and DevOps. We're now trying to refocus on developer. I mean, if you sort of think of two parts of the developer life cycle, where you've got your work, where you're doing your creative work, where you're writing code, and then you've sort of got your part of the work, which is sort of your inner loop. And then you've got your part, where you're trying to get that code out to production, where you're trying to get your value to someone else, instead of your outer loop, where we're really trying to focus on the inner loop. And sort of our mantra is that any, for a developer should spend as much of their time as possible creating new and exciting things. And we want to produce tools that reduce some of those boring, mundane, repetitive tasks. So we're really trying to work out, how do we make, how do we take those boring repetitive pieces? And how do we make them vanish, like magic for new users, or how do we reduce friction if we're really experienced users? From both desktop and hardware, we're really trying to bring those two together to achieve that. You know, it's great about, you know, folks have been in the clouds since day one, all of us who have the start tissue experiences. You know, the one thing that's constant is constant change. And one of the things that you guys have done at Docker and hats off to the whole, you know, original team is that that brand of Docker has symbolized, you know, quality openness and set the standard. I mean, if you look back, you know, when containers were really coming around, it's not a new concept, but Docker really set the industry on this path. And you know, we're, you know, been great to follow every Docker account with the cube coverage. But more importantly, as the demand for developers to build these next wave of Cambrian explosion of applications, it's going to be more important than ever to have more of these abstracts, more of these, the tool in this real time, more developers experience because there's more building going on. And it's not just one cloud. It's all clouds. It's all things. Yeah, I think it was in like an ODC analyzed the future report a couple of years ago. I think it was maybe 2018 one, they said that sort of, maybe 2017 they said to date, we built the 500 million applications worldwide and by 2023 we've built another 500 million. So we, you know, the rate of creation is just insane. It's this exponential growth of us producing more and more applications and connecting more and more devices to them. So yeah, we, the sheer volume of creation and the rate of new technology supporting that. Even the rate of companies adopting, I guess more than one cloud, I think it's like 60% of companies are now more than one cloud provider. Maybe even more, maybe it's about 80%. Like it's ridiculous. I was just having this debate on Twitter about this multi-cloud. Someone tried to call us out and say, oh, you guys were pooing on multi-cloud in 2016, 18. I go, look it, no one was poo-pooing on multi-cloud. It didn't exist. I had multiple clouds, but there was no real use case. Now you're starting to see the use cases where, yeah, I have multiple clouds. You know, I got Azure here, I got this over here, but no one wakes up and spreads their workloads around. This is going back a few years. Certainly the hybrid was developing, but I think now you're starting to see with networking and some of these interoperable dynamics, you're starting to see innovation pockets in white spaces and large market opportunities for startups and companies to thread the clouds together at the right place. So I think multi-cloud is becoming apparent from a use case standpoint. Still a ton of work to do. I mean, DirectConnect's got SLAs. I mean, all kinds of stuff at the networking level, but it is real. I mean, it's going to be one of those realities that everyone has at least one or two, if not three. It'll be optimization. This is what developers do, right? It's all problems. Absolutely. I mean, if nothing else, I've encountered a couple of companies where even just redundancy is handled by a multi-cloud strategy. If you want to achieve more nines, then you just balance your workload between two clouds. I mean, the Zoom news was really a testament to that because everyone got into a twist over that. Oh, Zoom moves off Amazon. No, they didn't move off Amazon. They went to Oracle, they got Aged. They're everywhere. Why wouldn't they be? They need capacity, they need failover, they need fault tolerance. I mean, these are basic distributed computing concepts that is one-on-one. You got to have these co-locations and optimization for those clouds and the apps on that Microsoft as well. So why wouldn't you do it? Exactly. And that hybrid, that multi-cloud compounding that we said earlier, all the changes when you're looking at how you go to CI-CD, how you're funding these applications, creating more applications than ever. And going back to sort of with more AI work clothes as we discussed around GPU, and you combine that with sort of the last of the introduction, which is like arm and the growth of edge devices as well. It sort of makes for a really interesting future. And Docker is sort of with that summation is sort of what we're using to frame how we're thinking about the future of our product and what we should be building. Great, for the audience out there, hit them up on Twitter, it bends available, they're out in the open. If you're interested in how Docker makes life easier on the Windows platform with the GPU support, you got security now built in, shifting left, give these guys a call. And of course, we love the mission out in the open, Secube's mission as well. And great to chat with you. Ben, thanks for spending the time with me today. An absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me. Okay, this is theCUBE's coverage of VirtualCube with DockerCon Co-creating together out in the open. DockerCon 20, hashtag Docker20. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Stay tuned for our next segment and thanks for watching.