 Hello, there we go Okay, good afternoon everyone. Welcome to our afternoon panel on blockchain and the world's problems We have many problems in this world and obviously you can change it by Making lots of money with Bitcoin something like that So we have a panel and there's your nurse It's right here There's Hongpuk as well over there Cherry I believe Jolin and Liu He's not here Canceled Okay. Oh, we've got you instead Okay, Roland's doing it doing instead And they're going to discuss how we can do really horrible things with blockchain to make the world better so Horrible things with it, of course. So everyone have a good afternoon Good afternoon. Do you have a good lunch? Yes, happy awake Not happy, but Awake, I hope so. So I just want to do a quick introduction about the panel Okay, so I have a liquor here Blockchain it is a hype technology In this panel we want to know what are Real real real use cases of blockchain apart from the hype As you know in Singapore Recently for the past few months every day in Singapore in the evening when you go out it always about blockchain a lot of meetup But what a lot of events going on here in Singapore? It is always full of people. So it is a It is a hype here or in Chinese. Let's go Han Kuo. It's a correct Jolin Han Kuo It is something that really hot at the moment But what we actually want to know Can blockchain solve any problems of the world? The panelists today will provide an insight into their projects and plan for the using of blockchain Most of the chains are using false infrastructure to mine and run their network What is the growth of open source in the projects and companies of the panelists? How does the open ecosystem benefit from the train of blockchain technology? In false Asia our goal is to improve people lives in with open tank Technologies like blockchain raise the question about the impact on people and in the world It takes a lot of energy to generate blockchain. There is no immediate benefit except of the coin itself There is no immediate value product or anything a human could use except for the transactional value What should be the stack of those so-so? Responsible organization in giga study questions Can blockchain solve at the world problems and with ones? before we start the panel I would like to Introduce our panelists again as some of you would not Okay, so we have here Jonas Born Moloski a key so He was a key no speaker yesterday for the opening about open source within down low So I if you don't mind I would like to say again your A short pile so the people here can also understand your background then so Jonas holds a diploma in computer science and Japanese study from University of Bonn The main focus topics are metadata data quality as we're in new neural network within down low He was holding architectural roles for finding in system in various leadership position His he has a keen interest in new technologies and open source movement and In his current role he is strapping the blockchain and distributed pleasure technology Activities from the technology perspective within down low and Jonas is also a member of the government board of hyper ledger The second panelist I have here role in turn there most of you This is a big joke from me. It's my LinkedIn photo. It's never used in this context. So awesome So serious Yeah Most of you probably knew him as one of the organizer of false Asia, but apart from from that Roland in the ship privacy officer of trust here where he is responsible for the company's Information policy and practices bay in Singapore. It's also a study member of the hacker space He holds a computer science degree from University of Technology Sydney, and he is an avid dancer Well, I knew him for the past five years and seen you dance even once Yeah, and he's a runner and also a ham radio operator with a particular interest in space the third panelist I have Jerry Matthew So Jerry just arrived today from KL. I would say you are on top. Thank you Jerry is a C programmer and with a geo libraries and political views anarchists and Attendancy and some false contribution mostly to the I believe free best the operation system Not be at this. Okay. Good. And it's a software engineer. He has written programs which are mostly used there invisible Yeah, do something that nobody can see right as a hardware engineer. He has been an autonomous food picking robot we was very user-visible and He also a founding member of two hacker conference Hack Beach and he'll have India Yeah The third panelist I have here guys So this is Jolin Chen Jolin is a creator and blockchain architect of Flowchain dot IO an Open-source based IOT blockchain solution Before flow chain. He has been working on embedded software and full stack web Development for many years. He'd research interest Distributive lecture technology and IOT data security Jolin has a master degree in manufacturing information and system from the National Chengchung University of Taiwan Welcome. Okay So let's Question of the day. I would like to start with the first two question What a panelist here What is your interest in blockchain and if your company are currently doing Doing something with blockchain who would like to start first Jolin Yeah So what is good you could you advance a little bit about your company and what are you currently doing with blockchain? Okay, I got my name. I own a small business IOT industry especially in China Needs a visible solution of IOT blockchain However Although there are already blockchain systems such as hyperlager Ethereum, but This blockchain systems cannot fit the needs of the IOT industry so I left my position of of the last company to start my own fortune company and Have a blockchain system denied from the ground up to fit their needs of the IOT industries So I like the touch. It's because there are so many problems that we can not Solve them So I came here especially to learn from you about problems and the solutions. So I have a Very broad range of interests. I'm not active in any blockchain related activity at present I am extremely interested in what the various blockchain capabilities and factors that's three separate abilities to get one umbrella what they mean for Technology for market development and especially what they mean for open source and free software and Just associated How we make money this thing so there's a it because of the the default open The tendencies of the open source community and the default open tendencies of blockchains I Intuit a big overlap, but I don't yet have a specific application that I'm pursuing You said that you are extremely interested in blockchain and you're currently not working on any application But is there anything that you seem in the reason setting that I think the general category of things So I'm not a fan of proof of waste. I don't I think it's a to the basis of Bitcoin and currently Ethereum is a terrible idea Money is is about the ability to obtain a present to turn a present day token into future day value And so things that could that computation can measure computation storage communication and power the future delivery of those things is a Direct valuable Thing that can be turned into a coin. So like this is a very broad category But I think certainly 4oT will come up and a bunch of other categories a bunch of other areas the idea of issuing tokens that are tied to future delivery of Things that are economically valuable and can be measured by a machine Is going to be an absolutely compelling class of uses for blockchains? How that looks today, I can't guess, but I don't think proof of waste is a proof of work if you like but Sorry, that needs justification. You're looking for any Cryptocurrency of any sort you're looking for proof that work either has been done or will be done The category of work that is currently most popular is proof of intentional waste in the past That's Bitcoin is which as a derivative of RPIw which is a derivative of hash cash It's it's it's a long transition to this thing to prove waste in order to eliminate certain kinds of abuse That's not the only kind of proof of work that matters So when I make the distinction I'm not just insulting it I am saying that although proof of work is important proof of waste as an example of proof of work is a terrible idea and it will not sustain It's that you even if you try to move for the credit card transaction volume onto Bitcoin You would need more power than is generated on the planet. So it's yeah, that's That thing will at some point become rational, but I really do believe that there are a Whole category of things where future will be valued that machines can measure will have direct application Thank you very much. So Jerry. So we had a conversation before so we had now Jordan doing some watching the application for IOT and Jordan also mentioned a few potential But you told me before that you don't believe that Blockchain have any positive impact. What do you want to say now? Could you? talk a little bit about your Motivation interest Gonna be careful speaking to you We tried to give a positive Adam P Sure For a start, maybe I should give a bit of bank background. I'm one of the guys who Heard about the Bitcoin in 2009 early 2009 At a point where you could really run your home PC and you know be a millionaire now And I deliberately stood you know stood by I had the Programming skills to get on board, but I deliberately stood by the wayside and you know saw that train go by But the the real context apart from that is that I'm a kernel programmer and a kernel is a very complicated Distributed system if you like and the core technology behind blockchain really derived from lamports work way way back and You know I looked at it as a technology project, so I'm coming at it from a Computer science angle And also I ran a hacker space in the rural village in India for two years And helped start a hacker conference who have been hearing lots and lots of chatter about various kinds of technologies And so I'm coming at it with the eyes of a critic I Don't want to take a particular position right now, but maybe as the conversation Progresses, I'll make my views more clear Thank you very much. How about Jonas so within them though So my my my first contact was a little bit later than yours It was 2010 when a friend came to mine and said you have to do it. This is like insane genius and I thought you know this guy has super crazy ideas so interesting concept and was looking at the technology at that time, yeah, but Nevertheless, I missed it to buy or actually invest into a hardware to mine something Then several years later at work Somebody and I was talking about that technology and somebody that came around the corner And we have to do something with it. We have to do a project. Yeah, I know something about it So I want to do I want to help and then it went really crazy because everybody then the hype kind of started and Now what we are doing is we're investing in PUCs pilots whatever in terms of using the technologies for for enterprise great applications and also I Try to demystify actually a lot of the fuss and the hot air About the blockchain hype at the moment Yeah, and I tried to to bring it down to a ground and try to find applications that are really That you can really set up with blockchain Yeah, that you can really do with blockchain and not just put a label on and say yeah It's blockchain because it's the hype now so are there any real application that you are using right now in the company Yeah, I mean yesterday I showed one thing is where we that's not a world problem Let's say like this, but it's a small problem. So driving not very efficiently. Yeah, we are trying to solve What we're actually trying to achieve is to change behavior Yeah, so due to means of incentivation something very abstract a cryptocurrency behind that We try to incentivize if you drive greener. Yeah, and then you probably also pollute a little bit less Nonetheless if you have a big car, then it's not fair to say that But at least try to to change behavioral aspects with Incentivation which is totally abstract because nobody knows what to do with it now at the moment That is one of the projects Yeah, so I want to go back to Jordan. Could you explain a little bit more as a user perspective? What can they do with the flow chain? What are the services that you offer? Okay for me most of the blockchain technologies especially for FinTech insurance P2P peer-to-peer payments And however there were no blockchain technologies for IoT devices so the flow chain started in 2015 to develop a IoT blockchain system You can say flow chain is an embedded system or the operating system for a device so We have already developed IoT applications. The application is video surveillance systems which must ensure real-time transitions. For example, there is about 30 video friends in a second Most of the existing blockchain systems cannot fit our needs. For example, Ethereum has about 10 seconds transition time and Bitcoin is much longer about 50 minutes and For Hyperledger Hyperledger uses the trustee communication channel which is now So good for IoT systems. It's because for IoT systems The device needs to use a trustee communication channel Yeah, it's in the perspective of technology. So maybe I can explain things by tomorrow When is your session tomorrow? I will have a session tomorrow afternoon. Okay, so is the application open source? For sure. For sure open source? Well, not for sure, not for sure. Okay, so we come to the next question. So how are you using FOS with the technology? So How FOS? I mean, I wouldn't trust any blockchain implementation that is not open source Because it's about first of all trust and if you cannot trust the source of it Yeah, why should I trust the system then? Yeah, so I think Always if I explain also blockchain bringing together actually all of the ideas existed before but bringing that together in this this this completeness was was really ingenious and Also, I try to explain the people that It's not the technology you just buy and do something with it and you just tell some supplier do like this It's a technology. You have to embrace because it in many ways may change also your business model and If you don't understand your business model, you're basically fucked So you you should yeah, you should embrace it in a different way But still there will be applications where you don't have to understand the technology behind that Because it won't affect your business And So in a sense, I mean I see open source is the very very basic foundation for doing actually blockchain But not all applications on top of that have to be like then open But going back to also solving some of the problems If I think about a lot of ideas that are currently evolving around solving identity problems I haven't seen the killer application yet because I always think there's I even coin at the identity crisis so because The question is how do you can I can really trust that you are you and I'm I'm yeah, and if we do transactions nevertheless some some transaction I give you my House yeah, or I give you money and you lose your private key for Something yeah, who has the right to give it back and who is to write or is it the community or however you may call it Yeah, and if a device an IOT device stores some information in the blockchain How can you really be sure that this IOT devices really this IOT device and not the the communication has been tempered with even if the if the code or Like a private key is embodied into the CPU with a spectra and meltdown. We know that you might even attack those so Yeah, I think that's one of the the core problems still but I mean I think in general. I'm not a critic in general, I'm Not I'm positively but not overly enthusiastic I Okay, so I don't want to object, but I want to I want to kind of point out that a lot of the Identification privacy related like any place where you see a big institution be government bank whatever the other day There was a very interesting paper by Accenture that said that there's something called a mutable blockchain go look it up. I mean Anyway Where I'm coming from is to say that we the way this narrative is going on both in the krypton-archist World and in the rest of the world, which is trying to make sense of all this stuff Is that everybody's anonymous and everybody? You know transacts privately and so on and so forth We live in the real world with real relationships where you know the physical person is much much more vulnerable you know then People sitting, you know behind terminals imagine they are you know computers I mean geeks have this sense of invulnerability sometimes when you sit behind black and white terminal You know you can get control of it, whatever right, but that's not the case We're really vulnerable and we live in social networks that are really strong and have serious consequences You know how we set it up. So again just to come back to the point where I feel like we're really marching into a rat trap If we're going to put all our stuff out on a public ledger Actually in in the blockchain space the most sane Technology that I've seen is Zuko's zed cash. I believe it's called Zero knowledge sorry zero knowledge proofs. That's that's such cash Zed cash. Yeah, that's that's in my opinion. That's the Sort of best. It's also a thing. We're often argue about yeah If people tell me we have to store this and this on the blockchain Okay, okay, let's let's think about that Yeah, if we for instance put prices of bananas on the blockchain It might be okay and now we have cryptography that at least hides it for the next few years Yeah, and then at some points we might have cryptography that unveils the prices of bananas Maybe 40 years ago that might be okay because nobody cares then about the prices of bananas at that time But if you put your health records on it, yeah, we shouldn't do that We should be very scarce with this kind of information putting it in a immutable thing We might we might also think twice about putting financial transactions on it Might yeah, but might not be so sensitive then like real information about You very personal things This is a sort of observation for those who have perhaps at the crypto anarchist Mindset and I'm thinking hooray. We have a monetary system, which is anonymous. Well, no, we don't We have a monetary system which has a perfect Indelible public record of every single transaction that's happened when Bitcoin if Bitcoin gets big enough to be used for significant financial crimes Then prosecutors are going to invest. What do they have to to perform ordinary anti-money laundering? But with the aid of a perfect record of every transaction that's ever occurred. It's a slam dunk Okay So next question. Thank you Roland Continue with Talking about false. How does the open-source ecosystem benefit from the trend to the blockchain technology? I think in many ways open-source movement Now benefits from the hype Because I mean if I think about enterprises there People start to understand that this is a thing that you just cannot really buy and and go and maybe you have a supplier that you Can do but I mean if it's not really open then you are usually missing the point and a lot of people won't try to Be partner. Yeah, and if you have to partner and have to to Again, it's about the trust thing and if you can have to establish trust between partnerships And you have to use the software and it's open-source then for the I think for the very first time a lot of People will actually think about this kind of technology I again this is more an intuition than a than a concrete view but the fact that At least present a lot of blockchain based applications default open. I mean there are uses of hyper ledger that are inside closed networks, but a lot of the Interest is in applications which are default open with respect to the content of the the distributive ledger That happens to be the same behavior That open-source and free software developers Exhibit so at a very high level It is my intuition that there's there will be situations where the fact those two things go together mean they'll be well-aligned There will be things that open-source communities can use Blockchains for that closed communities might have trouble. So I suspect a Synergy, but I don't have concrete examples yet By the way, thank you very much for leave the middle chair for me. It's my thing quite complicated for me to To go on to the panelists actually I should sit on that support is it on the side with thank you very much Jerry I You have anything to add on the using of Forth and open-source ecosystem benefited to two things broadly, I think I think I do agree with That this whole Bitcoin Publicity has really brought the idea of the Open-source geek if you like to be a bit more sexy So I think that's that's that's good in many ways and not taking any gender positions here, but I Think that's really nice because I've actually been a road warrior to take free and open-source software about a decade ago in my home state of Kerala and I walked a thousand four hundred kilometers over 40 days just to Talk to school children about FOS and a lot of the conversations that came up was about How do you make money out of this? How do I get a job? you know, these are very fundamental questions, you know in in the Not first world that You know, it's about food and surviving and so from that perspective I feel like if more and more people are somehow By accident drawn into FOS just because of the publicity of the blockchain And Bitcoin and so on that might be a really good thing But I want to help HB out a little bit here with the good Parts I was at a conference last year where a room full of really public bureaucrats in India we in India Worm from we Have this new identity scheme called out how which I will not talk about right now, but um anyway in that context There was somebody who showed up from Somewhere in Latin America, I do not want to say the wrong country But anyway, they were looking as a government at using the blockchain to implement contracts So they they were they were looking as a government to implement I'm not sure what the What the mining scheme was or who was or what blockchain particularly? They were interested in but as a government because the person who spoke was a bureaucrat and he understood contracts and the government position on contracts and Sort of you know, there's a whole bunch of issues legal and Legislative and so on and so forth and that conversation seemed quite interesting because for the first time actually saw somebody who was a bureaucrat You know who was in government Not necessarily dealing with technology You know from a practitioner's point of view actually Talking about Using this technology at scale at the scale of entire country And I'm not sure what positions take on that, but I felt like that was a really positive thing. What was the Intended use Was this for all government contracts all contracts a change in contract will require it or I believe they were looking at the implementation digitization of the function of what in India is called a registrar, so the government would sort of a sort of You know credibility, so I'm the government and I vouch for the fact that this contract was signed So the equivalent they wanted to automate it using blockchain. So then the costs and so on work This has been intriguing history, you know, it was unaware of that use Certainly in sort of the ancient world and thinking ancient Athens a contract was unenforceable unless it had been Witnessed and possibly even archived by a public notary There was the concept of private contracts that were secret was Invalid you could not go in front of a court which is basically a jury and demand enforcement of a contract that had not So we know you for land titles and births and deaths and a handful of other things, but this is for all I think in public space. There's also something like a registry. Yeah, if you have for instance Housing and and you buy a house. You'd usually just buy Putting yeah, your name put like the other name strike through and you you buy your name putting on the on the public Something registry something like this could also be a public application of this kind of thing These are really compelling if you've got so Indonesia part of the problem with haze has been that there are three overlapping and Inconsistent property land title systems in use in Asia. It's a part of the difficulty several years ago when the haze got a bit exciting in this part of the world that the burning of Pit most of what the plant turned to Sky in the city opaque you couldn't see 20 meters Yeah, they don't have a consistent state-run Land title registry in fact they have up to three overlapping ones and then not consistent the other issue you have in some places I don't know if this is true in Indonesia, but it's a big place where it is in case is you've got corrupt officials who are manipulating the Registration transactions either to improper benefit themselves from a transaction or in order to seek a bribe not to and so in these cases Yeah, a public indelible record of a public transaction, which is what a land transaction is It seems like a really compelling application but that that was the question my mind was if you cut the costs of Contract registration there may in fact be arguments for increasing the scope of Public registration of contracts with critical events It's it's people we but I there are One of these issues that comes up in in contact or is questions of contra formation does this quantity exists one party says yes One party says no one person says this was a document one place is this was the document that can be tampered with if you sort of eliminate that entire category of disputes you cut the cost of Entering into negotiating and enforcing contracts That has social benefits Of course leads to the question of who's going to run the mining service is it going to be the government themselves monopolizing The question is what kind of consensus mechanism are you employing in the blockchain? Yeah, so doesn't have to be proof of work Which is also one of the myth that everything is proof of work, and you just burning energy. Yeah The question is what kind of consensus mechanism. I mean proof of work at the moment It's the best proven one. Yeah, and there's the most consensus about this consensus mechanism. Maybe yeah But the question is are there others and if there are others and there are others yeah, but if Are those also as trustable as proof of work at the moment? We don't know and we will have to research a lot but I Think there will be difference. I mean Sawtooth has proof of elapsed time and now they have like Mechanism where you can just exchange the consensus mechanism But I think there might be others as well. Yeah, and I mean if you talk to governments proof of authority I am the one yeah, or at least some of the ones decided that this is okay Then this is okay. This could also be one of the applications of the different concepts I'd point out a concrete example that already exists and is already having major economic consequences, and that's TLS certificate transparency so almost every browser where browser in use reports the TLS certificates or the SSL certificates that it encounters to observatories Logs three or four running What it does is means that CA's who misbehave get caught Immediately like within seconds of the first misuse This takes away a whole category of abuse By CA's and in fact it has also caused semantic to have to exit the market because they were caught twice issuing fake Google certificates apparently for legitimate testing purposes not for Criminal purposes, but like it shouldn't have happened once and it definitely shouldn't happen twice so that there are Other mechanisms already in use in the world today that are not Centralized that are not government-controlled, but have some of the same character that make it Infeasible for certain kinds of either Erroneous or corrupt behavior to go undetected and and this kind of mechanism, which is lying behind that You can also use for different things. I mean there was this one project which is called ever ledger, which is basically about Tracing diamonds. Yeah, so which is a high valuable good valuable good and and usually you buy diamonds in rich countries, yeah and They are usually created or at least extracted from the soil in quite poor countries Yeah, and so there's a problem if you go for exploitation To actually prove that this diamond has not been is not a blood diamond actually Yeah, and one of the reasons you can do it because it's first of all diamonds always have like DNA yeah, so can you really prove this diamond is kind of this diamond and we can prove it on the If you have like a provenance ledger behind that then you can try to find it out And if some of the players are not good playing good then others can distrust them Yeah, this is kind of the web of trust idea inverted so its web of distrust to To this extent that you can record it publicly Which is like then something where you can say okay this this guy has accused enough At least ideas that this guy is doing bad, so I will go and check and you could use or This technology could use also for other I don't know co-borrowed for instance is one of the things then or other rare earth materials that are Usually coming from Africa or from China Yeah, and yeah, maybe lithium something else yeah if you think about sourcing and Exploitation and you we don't want to exploit, but we want to have the right sources But you have to prove it. Yeah, or else there will be somebody in the middle who will might counterfeit the the sourcing information and This could also be an application Yes, so I would like to continue with the point about the cons of Blockchain so now so we we were talking at the conference that we're doing open Technologies to improve people's life and to make the world's a better place It's always come up the questions of blockchain use it a lot of energy and also so What should be the state of a socially responsible organization in regards to the questions and Before we we from our panelists. I would like to swap my seat for trolling. They have all the panelists here together Again the question is What should be the state of the socially responsible Organization in regards to the question the cons of blockchain first of all the the engine in the gene energy Consumption you should care Yes, we should care. I don't have an answer for your question actually So the question again is what kind of consensus mechanism is viable later on for not solving CPU and heat intensive problems. I mean if you look at the inspiration behind You know the two fairs majority Protocol the name for it is the business in general's problem. It's a warlike situation That's the cause that's the social context in which this is this is coming out of This was a so the Byzantine general's problem is a reference to Military units in the Byzantine Empire that were very loosely coupled that didn't trust each other They tended to move towards a consistent goal, but it the field commanders didn't necessarily trust each other So if you're surrounding a city and you want to besiege it You need all of the generals or most of the generals to attack simultaneously if one attacks by himself You'll get wiped out. So how do the generals agree? How and when to attack it turns out to be proven with the case that you need 3m plus one two-thirds plus one participant to agree if you have a you can't make algorithms that work better than that but yeah, whether you do that by Burning CPU time or some other mechanism is I think a really important question I think it's a terrible idea to build what amounts to a monetary system based upon intentional waste Well, slightly tangential, but I mean I read an article recently about a bunch of crypto Millionaires who've landed in Puerto Rico, I believe It was the most bizarre was it was it so I mean this is like a small group of very privileged new millionaires who come together You know to celebrate or to look at opportunity to use crypto currency in a not necessarily economically advanced social context and The credit they're they're asking at the exact question that we're asking here in this panel What can we use the blockchain for? to Improve whose lives so I think Yeah It's a little bit of a problem because every decision-making mechanism is Biased by who's making the decision and then and the process whether or not it's a technical consensus mechanism in a you know Distributed ledger of blockchain transactions or whether it's a political process or whatever it is that same problem rises And so yes, we have this interesting perhaps slightly unseemly Situation where a bunch of guys who are not particularly sophisticated on your power society's work and politics and history Suddenly find themselves immensely wealthy and sort of building what amounts to gold's coach for those who've ever been at the shrug It's sort of opting out of society because they can and then Trying to think what's it next with no? grounding in how institutions work. It's interesting problem So, okay, so perhaps the audience has some answer for us We have The remaining seven minutes I would like to open the floor to the audience to raise question to our panelists and if you have any Thank you, Nalyana So hello So I'm I'm just gravity I'm from Wipro and I'll be talking mostly about the same subject tomorrow But I the discussion about the energy consumption and it actually refers to the energy consumption of the Bitcoin miners on the planet Not all blockchains are our vast energy consumers is a very interesting problem. I While I don't have an answer to this problem I have some elements that you want to think about first of all it is extremely hard to store Electricity efficiently so when you're producing too much electricity in some places it goes to waste anyway So why not use it? That's the first thing the second thing is and that's from talking from energy producers Like my colleagues at energy in Germany We are going towards a world where we will be able to use energy from the Sun from the wind from the waves and We should be at some point able to produce more electricity that we will ever need for the whole planet this means that the problem of over consumption of electricity by Anything is only a temporary problem. It's a lousy problem to have it's a horrible one But it's a temporary problem because at some point it will not be a problem anymore. So The point is not to say we should Turn Bitcoin into a non-energy consuming environment or we should get rid of Bitcoin and do something else The point is we need to move forward Faster to a point where energy is not an issue anymore and it becomes a a free for everybody commodity and Some energy producers are going in that direction today, but the thing is I mean if you look at how energy is produced today Then we have a vast problem. I mean, yeah That's that's and if we just increase the demand at the current times then the standard reaction will be either way We built more atomic reactors. Yeah, or you just scale up burning of fossils and I Would agree. I mean Germany just decided to to go out of the atomic thing. Yeah, and But still the others don't scale at the moment very well or you move the miners to places where there's a lot of Sun So I'd I'd question both premises for what you're arguing The principal error is that the way mining proof of waste-based mining works is that it's self-handicapping So it autumn on 10-minute intervals This is not topical. This is how the thing works on 10-minute intervals the Handicapping factors that are used in the network are rebalanced to ensure that it remains difficult to mint new coins That will automatically correct for all possible increases in electricity consumption up to several orders of magnitude more than the amount of sunlight falling out planet so that The the the idea that somehow we will eventually have electricity to keep to meter which by the way has been announced at least twice in the past doesn't address the problem with proof of waste-based systems that are self-handicapping because they will always automatically Regear themselves to consume all the availability and take it away from other applications. So that but I don't dispute your broader claim about what solar energies and wind energy are getting cheaper and will keep getting cheaper But the idea that that is in any way capable of solving the problem is I would suggest not correct because I And right and so Bitcoin will have to stop having it at some point or it will end up making itself But the irrelevant is collapse under its own weight the other half of it is that although energy storage is relatively difficult we're getting better at it And really there are two major areas two or three One is various kinds of battery Unfortunately, most of the lithium is in Venezuela so the kinds of places you're gonna want to make your conflict diamond problem The principal place you're gonna want to not take lithium from is where the lithium is So we have a bit of a problem on that front. It will have for some considerable time There are liquid sodium sort of You heat metal during the day and then take heat out of it during the night Pumped hydro schemes are starting to look like a major player. So Australia's had one in place for decades South Australia went dark Last year in an advanced country where an entire state a whole grid went dark and stayed that way for hours because the Wind and solar renewables have come online too quickly There's been a political drivers have been built to just say put more and more and more wind and solar source Without any obligation to provide frequency control and synchronization This is a technical argument about how grids work, but importantly the politicians didn't understand it when they wrote the incentives And so you've now got some of the oldest nice nastiest cheapest and often second-hand technology in use in South Australia But providing more than a third of the grid's power And that's a recipe for disaster And so the part of this was into that problem is to get better at either batteries Which Tesla has stepped up and done or pumped hydro and it happens that South Australia is Physically the right shape to do pumped hydro against the ocean. So we The the storage problem is one that we've had the luxury of overlooking because we've used heavy spinning turbine based power stations whether hydro or Burning hydrocarbons We're having to rethink that as we step into wind and solar based systems And so on the two fronts one having those systems Take responsibility for frequency control and stability as part of the business of selling power to the grid and the other Getting better at storage Both of those will advance and will advance fairly quickly over the next decade. So I Don't dispute your broader point about we are going to have a whole or more power available by solar and wind means but that on the two It's how that fits this problem. I think it'll solve a different way Yeah, so South Australia isn't quite the shape of Switzerland, but There are enough hills near ocean to do it. So, yeah Thank you very much. I think we have time for only one more question Thanks all first of all, thanks for your insights. So looking now to blockchain basically 10 years of technology available Yeah, what would be your? Hypothesis why this thing didn't made it so far To final application for example in corporate I mean one sentence the corporates the technology is quite new and from the idea It came up It has not been developed so far for corporates enough because usually a lot of business models are Plengaging to hiding kind of information from one party to another party and that is your competitive advantage so and the Real idea in the beginning was everything is transparent. So this is one of the major things and Technology doesn't I mean having technology enterprise ready is something different than having it just run somewhere Lock chains on also Yeah, just a quick one about the gap between theory and practice and the scientific method that actually Narrows the two. So hopefully that is the room for improvement other blockchain technology It's good for the IOT in terms of the cost It's because in some areas the bandwidth is very expensive if we use the Central model such as the cloud servers. So we use the peer-to-peer model to reduce the cost Without any central parties such as the cloud servers It's because the cloud server is much expensive and the total amount of Blockchain transaction blockchains on distributed hyperledges are fundamentally new primitive Ten years is a very very short period of time. I would argue that the Progress is not slow. It's fast. I can't think of an example, but you don't know this will take 30 or 40 years So I think it's quick Okay, so I think we come to the end of our panel The final question for the panelists, you don't have to answer just an open question and also for the audience so What can blockchain? Really help us have the world. What kind of problems the blockchain can solve and if you are developer You are working currently working on any open sort of application that are useful for the world That's using blockchain leads. We would like to hear more from you So the panelists will be around until Sunday You are welcome to come and talk to them at the end of the panel Now let's give a round of applause for our panelists. Thank you very much