 Good afternoon sir. Good afternoon sir. Good afternoon. Thank you sir. Okay. Yes sir. Vringalakoda. Yes sir. Vringalakoda is temple's core. Sir it is famous for Kudalmanakim temple which is a temple. Kudalmanakim temple which houses the deity Bharata. It is one of the famous temple. I think the only temple. Only temple in the country. Yes. You have visited that temple. Yes sir several times. Yes sir. Have you visited Peechi also? Peechi. Yes I have visited it once. It is quite near to you. Not very near sir because I am a bit far from Peechi. So it is like 40 kilometers from my place. In Delhi even 60 kilometers is a small distance. Yes sir. Is it important? Yes sir. It is comparatively a smaller distance. What is there in Peechi? Sir Peechi is famous for its dam as well as its sanctuary which is there. So that is how it is famous sir. Yes sir. Where did the institute is there? Yes sir. Forest Institute sir. Are you referring to the forest institute sir? Yes. What is the whole name? Sir Kerala Forest Research Institute. And there is another institute there. Some banana, lettuce banana. Sir I am not very much aware of it sir. Atta Padi you did some work? Yes sir. What was that? Sir it was basically a legal aid as well as legal awareness scam that we did in Atta Padi. It was during my third year in law school that we organized it. So it was basically aimed at the ugly part of Atta Padi Taluk. So when we went there we understood that their problems are not just related to law. But there are several socio-economic problems that they face in society. So that is our work in Atta Padi. What are the problems? Sir there are a couple of factors. Firstly there is rampant alcohol addiction in parts of Atta Padi. So the rehabilitation part is a missing link at this point of time. So secondly there is also a gap of health infrastructure that is there in Atta Padi. So there was some external aid in project for Atta Padi? Sir as far as I understand there was a collaboration between Ahards as well as some multilateral institutions like World Bank funded projects for Atta Padi. But with the interaction with the tribal people over there what we understood was that most of the projects are not the demand of the tribal population. Rather it is conceived as a top-down approach which they do not find it very beneficial for them. Lot of money is being poured in that area. Still nothing is happening? Yes sir. I would not say that nothing is happening at that point. Because from 2013 to 2018 if we take the statistics there has been an improvement in terms of infant mortality rate which was at a very high level in 2013. And also in terms of health indicators because of the community kitchen and all there is a significant gap reduction which has happened. But the problem is that any development project should also take people into confidence. What they need? What they really aspire to achieve? I think that has not been the case when it comes to several development aid. Especially in terms of agriculture. Chief Justice of India gave some lecture, memorial lecture. He told something. Sir what are you specifically referring to sir? If I may ask for a clarification. It is specific. It has come in all the newspapers. You would have told one or two specific. That is why I think they are. Sorry sir. So many lectures are there by so many dignitaries. Something about having an independent body for CDI and all. Sorry sir. I am not aware of it sir. I am not aware of it. There should be a body under which the CDI and ED and you know ED what is ED? Enforcement record. And a serious fraud office would come. Yes sir. Which is the biggest article in the constitution? Which is having number of clauses? So number of clauses. Sir I fear I do not know the answer for that sir. You are having something blogging also, constitutional law and you are a law graduate. Sir I will definitely check upon that sir. 243. 243. It is about? Sir I fear I cannot recollect at this point sir. I cannot recollect at this point sir. Okay. I am right to education. Yes sir. So it is mentioned in article 21A of the constitution. It was introduced as a part of an amendment in 2009. And even before that it was interpreted as part of article 21 in several cases like Mohini G. As well as Unikrishnan J.P. versus Sandhira Padish. But I think it is still a work in process in India. Okay. There is some law also no? Yes sir. Right to Education Act of 2009. This COVID backlog. You know in the last 5-6 months after this third wave. There is a COVID backlog of deaths from Kerala. Continuous. Yes sir. You know about that? Yes sir. What can be the reason? Sir when it comes to Kerala's handling of COVID. There are two factors which always comes out. Because in the first wave Kerala was able to significantly manage the case lot. It was because of an effective management at the local level which it was able to undertake. But after a point of time there was a pandemic fatigue which happened in the system at the systemic level. So I think that is played as a big factor in terms of COVID management as such. And secondly I think there is a good reporting in Kerala. That is also a factor why most of the deaths was reported even at a later stage as well. So it is also part of being a right conscious society perhaps that Kerala is having that high reporting. So good reporting, delayed reporting also input into good reporting. Sir. It was a deliberate attempt by the government because during election times they did not reveal those figures. And those figures now started coming out continuously for 4-5 months. You know that before this third wave or less than 45,000. Now let us grow 67-60th of it. Certainly sir. But I think it is also attributed as a political reason. But at the same time when from the government's point of view what the government has said is that the criterion in order to report for the death as a result of COVID has changed. So that may be one factor we should have played as a factor. Because when it comes to. That way criteria once it is changed let all the deaths backlog be announced at one time. Why slowly every day 100 out of it is 150 in the whole country 125 will be from Kerala. Yes sir. So daily it was like this. Yes sir. That is a factor. That is a very correct observation that has happened in terms of Kerala. Kerala is and has been having a very good image that the reporting is truthful and all. So now all the image is gone. But sir I would like to clarify that even though it was a delayed reporting. I would say that reporting at any stage is beneficial even for the victims as well. So it is not. Forgot about beneficial but government got the benefit. The same party came in power because of this COVID handling. Yes sir. Which is not true now. Yes sir to an extent I would like to agree with the observation that you made sir. Okay. What do you know about Kerala Gold case? Yes sir. When it comes to Kerala Gold case it was a matter of a diplomatic baggage containing Mbazil Gold. So that was one factor. So it involved several facets of diplomatic immunity as well as mishandling of power even from the CM's office. Those were the accusations which were leveled by the opposition against the rolling party at that point of time. But at this point of time it is still an ongoing investigation and it is also a matter which is subsidized in nature. Now what is the status? Are you aware of that? Yes sir. It has died down politically and in terms of the attention that it gets but it is an ongoing investigation. What happened to those actors in that thing? Who are all the main actors? Sir there were two or three people who were involved. One was the IAEA's officer M. Shiva Shankar. Sir he was one of the involved parties over there who was a point of interest and there was a lady who was involved. She was named Sapna Suresh. But I think it is an ongoing case so nothing is finalized in that case. What do you know about Kofi Persa? Yes sir. It is a legislation which basically attends. It is a legislation which attends to curb all kinds of illegal foreign transactions. Prevention of smuggling. These are the main agendas of that act. What is the main feature of that act? Sir I am not very sure of the details of that act sir but I will certainly check upon that sir. Have you heard of Gundas Act? Yes sir. What is that? So Gundas Act especially in the state of Kerala it was used to curb all kinds of activities. What is the main feature in that? So it enlisted certain people as Gundas who was involved in the illegal use of force against people. And they were targeted and in terms of the measures that were undertaken by Kerala they were asked to flee from that particular place as such. And some people were also incarcerated as a result of the Gundas Act. What do you call that incarceration? So we can call it a preventive detention. So coffee post also? Yes sir. Is for preventive detention for smugglers? Yes sir. So how many people have been booked under a coffee post or in this case? Sir I am not sure of it sir. When you go for preventive detention what is the maximum period one can be kept out of the law? Sir as far as I recollect it is three months and later on it can be extended to six months upon concurrence from a judicial body. But I am not sure of the details sir. Gundas. Okay. What are all the safeguards we have against this preventive detention that excess use of authority in the guise of these acts? Yes sir. So in the case of preventive detention firstly there is a right that always flows from article 21 and apart from that in terms of detention under preventive laws there is a time limit that is prescribed and any further extension of that time limit should be with the concurrence of a judicial finding and judicial body. I think that is the restriction that is attached to it. In a law. What is the recent controversy in Kerala about highways project? Sir can you just clarify? Highways project. Highways project sir. Sir there is a controversy regarding coastal highway and as well as a project that is running along with it that is K rail as well. With regard to coastal highway. What is that called? What is the project name? The coastal highway project is there. In plane or what is that? Sir are you referring to the K rail project? The semi high speed railway project that is there in Kerala. So that controversy is regarding firstly there is a detailed project report that has been submitted. It is construed as being incomplete and secondly the economic viability of that project because it is funded by the Japanese corporation that is also under question because the projection that has been made by the government it is alleged by the opposition of many other independent actors that is unviable in nature and thirdly it is also proposed as not an environmentally sound project but government has an alternate vision regarding that. Government says that it runs on green energy so it is environmentally sound and because Kerala is an urban continuum these projections are valid that is what the government says. Then law right? Yes sir. What is this concept? The rule of law. Sir rule of law is often attributed to the British scholar E.V. Dicey he says that no one is above law no one can no one is above law no one can be punished except by the distinct breach of law and everyone is equal before law. These are the primary concepts with respect to rule of law in our country. Yes sir certainly I do believe. And what is rule by law? So rule by law as far as I understand is ruled upon certain statutory principles like we have a constitution in India upon which this country is being covered so that is what I believe sir. But there are countries say Pakistan you have more than their constitution they have Shari et ala. So what is that? Sir even in terms of that there are several laws which operate a different domain I would say that in a country constitution may be construed as the ground norm upon which all of the laws are based. So even in India personal laws are the personal laws govern different transaction when it concerns individual in the terms of family marriage et cetera so that is also another facet of rule by law itself. Now tell me the difference between judicial activism and judicial overreach take one by one and give one example also. Yes sir. Sir when it comes to judicial activism it is judicially playing an active role in the social economic development of a country in a very positive way but sticking to its own domain expertise. When it comes to the idea of public interest litigation especially in terms of securing the human rights of prisoners in India that was a very positive role which was taken by the judiciary even in terms of providing legal aid in cases like Hussein al-Qathoun, Ahmad Shah Scott that can be construed as an element of judicial activism. But when it comes to judicial overreach here the judiciary steps outside its prescribed limit and it preaches the notion of separation of power. For example when judicially ordered for a ban on sale of liquor in highways that is basically a domain of executive. That is a policy matter that the judiciary should have restrained from. So I think that is called as judicial overreach sir. So this overreach is happening more than once now quite frequently can I say. Yes sir. Specially the Supreme Court. Whether it is pollution or anything like that. Sir I would certainly agree to that statement sir. Yeah that too. No ICJ. Yes sir. What is ICJ? Sir ICJ is International Court of Justice. Overreach. How many judges are there? Yes sir. In International Court of Justice there are 15 judges. 15? Sure. Sir that is what I recollect. Okay. Any Indian at the moment? Yes sir. There is Justice Bandari who wrote that from the Supreme Court. Yeah. Recently you voted on certain issue because totally against our stand anyway. Can you recall that particular thing? Yes sir. It was vote against Russia because Russian action was considered as against international law. But I certainly feel that being a judge he should be objective in nature and need not stick with the national policy as such because I think certain amount of objectivity in terms of his decision should be attributed because we follow that kind of system in India. How effective do you think this ICJ is really? Is it like any other UN agency type? Not effective, positive resolution, etc. Sir when it comes to ICJ, ICJ's effectiveness hinges on nations as such. In terms of very powerful nations like the US. Pakistan has always resisted from following ICJ's orders, especially in Nicaragua kings and all. Even Russia or China is not different. How about Pakistan? We have our case there. And with case I am referring to? Yes sir. You are referring to Kulbushan Jadav case? Yes. Yes sir. In terms of that I feel that in Kulbushan Jadav case Pakistan has at least partially complied with an order. Partially yes. Okay. But still you know it is more than two years I suppose. Only partially. Yes sir. Good. Now let's talk briefly about your budget. You are familiar with the budget? Yes sir. To an extent sir. Okay. Very simple question. What do you understand? The ease of living. Yes sir. Ease of living can be construed as the way in which basic necessities of life are being fulfilled by an individual. So that comes through various methods. Accessibility of food, clothing and also all other basic avenues of life as such. So the affordability factor and the way that you live with dignity all that comes. Good. But finally related to budget. In budget there are some announcements. This could make our life easier. Are you aware of that? Sir I can't recall that. Recall that. Have you heard of faceless assessment? Yes sir. So the only thing that we can believe? Yes sir. Definitely sir. Faceless and painless. Okay last question. What is the ease of doing business? Sir ease of doing business is in fact a concept which is mooted by the World Bank. The way in which a nation opens up to business. How laws are designed. How easily a business corporation can be incorporated in the business. How easily a business corporation can be incorporated in the business. A corporation can be incorporated in that country. And the ease of exit as well. So in terms of India World Bank has always rated India at a very high level at this point of time. I think India was ranked 63. Last time it was conducted. But the problem was always with respect to contract enforcement which made India's rank poor at times. Thank you. Contract. Enforcement. Enforcement. Okay in the beginning you mentioned about legal awareness that is required. So which sections of the society where you feel it is required most? Yes ma'am. When it comes to legal awareness I feel that it should start from schooling itself. Because students should be made empowered first with law. So even from basic schooling law should be taught as a subject. Secondly I think law should be taken to the vulnerable section who are often being kept out of the legal system. That is what I am saying. That is what I am asking. Which is the most vulnerable section where it is required the most? Ma'am I would say the schedule cost, the tribals and women. And women. Okay. Suppose there is a lady who is facing domestic violence. But she is not coming forward because of social stigma. So you, how would you address that problem? Not as a lawyer but as a civil servant. And these are very regular cases in your area. Yes ma'am. Ma'am when it comes to the idea of domestic violence I feel that the primary problem is the notion of patriarchy that exists in the society. So I think the capacity building should start at home when they are children. So I think that should be the primary step. But when a woman approaches me as an administrative. Women is not what I am trying to say. Because of social stigma she is not coming forward. And it is prevalent in the area where you, you know you are working. So how would you address this problem? She will not come to you. But that problem is there. And you know about the problem. How would you address in such a scenario? How will you address this problem? Ma'am I think the system should reach them. So that would be the primary solution. That is firstly we can come up with mobile telephonic numbers which they can easily access. And there should be counsellors who are able to communicate with them. So that there will be easier accessibility and communication that can happen with them. And thirdly even from the system side there should be a kind of an empathy that should be displayed to all kinds of victims. And at a systemic level there should also be a concerted effort within the society to generate awareness that any kind of domestic violence is a crime in itself. And victims should be treated with empathy and not with stigma. And I think that kind of campaign in the society that you know if she comes forward then the situation can get worse. So how does she handle such a situation? What steps would you take in order to ensure about her safety? Yes ma'am. Firstly I will use the avenues that is provided in the Domestic Violence Act itself. That is there are protection orders that can be granted to such women. And they should be rescued and rehabilitated in a place that they should be secure. So I think there should be government run senders for that wherein a person who is out of domestic violence is placed in a very secure environment. And thirdly if they are not economically empowered some kind of financial aid should be given to them and some kind of avenues for employment should also be opened up to them. So that they can live without fear and with independence in such an environment with state support. Okay. What about delaying cases? The cases they start and they never get closed. It takes years and years. So what do you think could be the remedy for this? Yes ma'am. Ma'am delay of cases happens at several level even at the apex court and also at the trial stages. In the apex court I feel that the sheer diversity is the main problem. So the Supreme Court should confine itself to original jurisdiction and constitutional matters. Rather than that we can have appellate courts at different levels at different regional benches. That would be the solution at the highest level. But when it comes to the trial court matter the trial court issues the matter is more grave in nature. So I think there we can pursue the method of alternate dispute resolution at the civil stages wherein it takes years and years to resolve. So ADR mechanism is one. Secondly the infrastructure at the trial court should improve to a great extent and judges to population ratio that should be addressed to a great extent and judicial recruitment at the trial stages has to improve to a at least a level which is manageable in society. And fourthly I feel that there should be an effective case management system that should be instituted in all courts. As a lawyer if you are handling a case what will be your priority? I mean as in like in terms of timelines how would you handle that with your client? Will it be a time bound thing or will it be an ongoing thing? How would you handle such a scenario with your client? Would you actually care would your intention be there to you know close the case within a time limit or since you know the lawyers are handling multiple cases at one time they don't have time. So I mean is there some kind of government intervention required to make it time bound? Certainly I feel that way because there should be government intervention to make it time bound. There are certain problems that is often associated with the idea of litigation in this country that is lawyers often keep the case posted and delayed so that happens as part of provision. Why does it happen? Ma'am exactly the issue that you pointed out that some lawyers take up cases which is not manageable by them. So I think that should change that is there should be a professional code of conduct which makes them or which mandates them to only take up cases which are manageable. Okay what is faster? It was a news fast fast and secure transmission of electronic records. Ma'am I am not aware of it now. Okay fine do you watch Netflix? Yes ma'am. Have you seen suits? No ma'am. You haven't seen? Okay and you watch movies in cinema? Yes ma'am. And this natural anthem, compulsive national anthem. What is your view on that? Ma'am I could term it as an instance of judicial overreach by the Supreme Court because I feel that any kind of patriotism need not be forced in nature. Especially in a movie theater I don't think that it may be the right place to display any kind of patriotism but having said that it was a right it was it was a judgment which came out of the right intention but I do not agree with the recent images provided by the church. Okay fine. Thank you.