 from the Silicon Valley Media Office in Boston, Massachusetts. It's theCUBE. Now, here's your host, Dave Vellante. Welcome to this special CUBE presentation. We just talked to Charlie Senate about the fellowship that we're doing with the ground truth. So the Tech Truth Fellowship comprises three fellows that came out of a very competitive process. Hundreds of applicants applied for the fellowship and the idea is we're going to the Grace Hopper event in Houston, the Anita Borg celebration from women. So I want to introduce you to two of the fellows that will be reporting at the event. Karis Husted is here and she's with Chicago Inno and a fellow for the Tech Truth. And she's joined by Pooja Shivaraman who is recently graduated from Tufts and also a reporting fellow. So welcome to theCUBE. Thanks very much for coming on. So we're so excited. We're prepping. You guys have been in a practicum all week. But before we get into that, let me start with you, Karis. What interested you in applying for this fellowship? How did it all come about? Yeah, absolutely. So I've been covering tech kind of on and off as a journalist for about three years. And throughout that time, I've noticed that we have kind of a great opportunity in technology right now. I think we're at a point where, you know, I mean, there are just incredible innovations coming out every day, but there isn't as much talk about who's actually creating those tech innovations. Who are the people who are behind the tech, behind the infrastructure that's going to create, you know, the next big thing of tomorrow. And so I thought this fellowship is a really great opportunity to take a gendered lens at this issue because as we know, there just isn't enough representation of women in technology. And how about you, Pooja? Sort of similar themes or? Similar, as you mentioned, I just graduated from Tufts where I was part of the program of narrative and documentary practice. And over there I was working on a podcast about music and cultural appropriation and how with technology, there's an increase in the ability to sample and how that sort of affects cultural appropriation across music, especially between India and the West. And that's what got me interested in the intersection of technology and social justice. So I was introduced to this fellowship and it was a perfect opportunity to talk about that intersection. Can you explain that sampling notion? What do you mean by that? Sure, so I always grew up listening to music that was very heavily influenced both by India and the West. So I sort of took my listeners on a musical cultural journey from the Beatles to more contemporary artists like Jay-Z to Indian artists in the US who were using sampling as a medium to reconnect back to their roots. So I think looking at music through that lens of technology is what got me interested in this whole concept of social justice and technology. Okay, and Karis, talk about Chicago inno. I'm understanding this is hyper-targeted local, hyper-local publication or content. Yeah, basically the idea is that technology doesn't just happen in Silicon Valley anymore. You know, it's happening pretty much in every city and I would argue almost every town nationwide. It's where a lot of the jobs are being created. And so our point is that we wanna be on the ground covering the startups, innovators and tech that's happening really outside of Silicon Valley. So we have all the locations in Boston, Austin and DC and then I'm covering tech in Chicago at a very hyper-local lens. Yeah, Chicago's got a good tech scene. Obviously some strong venture, couple of startups that I know that one recently got sold that I know of, Cleversafe was a company out there. Yeah, huge, it was a $1 billion sale to IBM. Okay, now let's see, Pooja, this week you guys were in a practicum at GBH. What was that like? What did you guys focus on? We did a lot of audio training and we talked to a lot of really influential women in venture capitals and in cybersecurity. So sort of getting into the field and learning more about the women that are really shaping the industry. Okay, and have you guys started to think about, I'm sure you've been thinking about it, but have you started to go down the path of what you're gonna be covering at the event or any particular angles? Yeah, so something that's always really interested me is basically in the tech world we have a lot of examples of what happens when women aren't included in the technical process. So for example, Apple forgets to add period tracking to its health kit app. Twitter has really struggled to create an infrastructure that doesn't create a lot of opportunities for harassment and misogyny. So basically what happens when women are a part of the tech process? What happens when it's an all women tech team or majority women tech team? What does that change in the culture and then how does that impact innovation? So kind of looking at those missed opportunities and new opportunities when women are in charge of the technical process. When you think about tech, the definition of tech has changed so much. I mean, when I was a young person, it was programming defined tech. And as you guys are saying, the technology is everywhere. It's affected, I mean, you haven't grown up really without technology. So every company is a technology company. Every consumer is a technology. My kids know technology better than I do. So what's your take on what tech is? How do you even define tech? Well, actually, I was actually asked this question by a female engineer the other day and she said, what do you think an engineer is? And so I, the best response I had come up with was that someone who is supposed to create things that either mimic or enhance the human experience. And I think that's what tech has become. It's become something that we rely on in every part of our lives. Well, and as well with the narrative that we talk about all the time is machines have always replaced humans, but they're starting to replace humans in cognitive function now. But it's like the humans have to fight for a place, not only just women, but humans. Is this a discussion that goes on with your generation? And is it something that is, that that generation is cognizant of or is it just sort of fate to complete and you embrace it? Yeah, I definitely think it's like a combination of being terrified and really excited at the same time. I think there's a lot of concern about what jobs are being taken, especially in lower class and middle class communities. But I think for a lot of people who've grown up with tech today, we see so many more opportunities that are opening up because of tech. Whether it's that you can learn to code, create your own app, create your own website, you can get involved with kind of the more gig economy, connecting with people around the world to get job opportunities and connect with more people. So I think there's definitely an understanding that we're going into a workforce that is sort of yet undefined, but then also realizing that that creates a lot of opportunities. Have either of you ever coded? Very little, I think, just like very basic HTML. Basic HTML, right, when they taught you in school. But you've been surrounded by people who coded your entire lives, right? I mean, growing up, you spent some time in Hyderabad, which is coding central, but so what is it about coding and women? I mean, I've met many women coders, but far more men coders. I mean, what's your premise there? I mean, it's a huge question and a very complicated one and something that we're really excited to dig into at this fellowship because I think you can find a lot of cracks in the pipeline in terms of why women aren't getting into code. I mean, to start from the very beginning, I mean, it's even, are your parents pushing you more, are they encouraging you when you're taking something apart and putting it back together? Up until, how are you performing in math classes and does your teacher create an inclusive environment that allows you to do that? And then what do you see in movies and TV in terms of who is a coder and who gets to be a coder? Is it a guy in a hoodie in the corner which doesn't really appeal to a lot of women or really a lot of people in general, but I mean, if that's the only way that you believe that a coder can look, why would you think there's a place for you there? So I mean, then it just keeps going up from there because the fewer women there are, the less inclusive environment you can create within a company culture, which is why you'll see a lot of women dropping out of, whether it's coding classes at the college level, whether it's once they get the job, they drop out once they are in the actual level. So I mean, it's really like you're just seeing it go down and down as when we get older. And then I don't know, Poojee, if you have a perspective on this, but I remember one of our advisory board meetings for the tech truth, we call it the tech truth in quotes Esther Wojewski was saying that they're actually at a large number of women who are in computer science that choose not to go into the technology field. I don't know, is that something that you've uncovered or have even a perspective on that? Well, for my own feature, I'm really interested in looking at women gamers and game developers. And I think that's definitely a field where you can see that happening, especially post Gamergate, which happened in 2014, which was a harassment movement against female gamers and game developers. And I think that's one of the most obvious examples when it comes to a very direct reason why women were leaving the industry because they were facing cyber harassment. And that's definitely an extreme example, but I think it speaks to the overall climate of the industry in creating a hostile environment for women who try to get into coding or gaming or game development. And so I think that's a great example. And so is that gonna be something that you're gonna explore is the game development side or the game actual participation side or both? Well, there's definitely an overlap. I think especially in the gaming world, there's this really interesting relationship between input and output, as in who the people working for the company are and what you actually see on screen. So there's this interesting gender dynamic that happens on and off screen where there's definite sexism and misogyny within the characters on screen, but you can also see that playing out in who's getting employed and who are the actual game developers. And like Karris was talking about earlier, it's a great example of seeing how the lack of women has manifested itself in a tech industry that so many people use. And gaming has definitely become a boys club. It's a male dominated space, but I think it's interesting and sad that women who have attempted to change that space have been driven out just by cyber harassment. So from my perspective, been around for a long time, the industry is making progress. When I started this business, there were no women CEOs and very few, if any women that I can think of, a couple maybe at IBM who's been pretty good over the years of senior executives. And today you've got Ginny Rometti who's the CEO of IBM, Meg Whitman is the CEO of Hewlett Packard, and Hewlett Packard Enterprise, one of the biggest companies that's out there. There are companies like, I mentioned Arista, Jay Sri Ulal, who's like a rock star, and many, many startups from women. So I feel like the industry has been making progress. From your perspective, do you agree? Is it not enough? What's your thought on that? Yeah, I mean, I think kind of yes to both because I think it is really exciting that you see more and more women in leadership roles because that absolutely is going to make a difference because they're the ones who are in charge both of products, so creating products that are just more inclusive to a wider audience, and then also creating that corporate culture, that community within the company that is more inclusive to women. So it's really important to see those women leaders at tech companies because that's going to create a much more inclusive environment. However, I think the pipeline is still a huge issue, the fact that we can't get as many women into the field because of those cracks in the pipeline that I was talking about earlier and then not being able to retain them because of whether it's kind of all those small cuts that kind of just end up ending a career or whatever other reason. So I think it's really important to get women leaders, but you also need that critical mass in order to create kind of a really healthy culture. I was at a chief data officer event a couple of weeks ago and I sat in a breakfast called Data Divas. So it was all women chief data officers and so I was like the data dude and very few of us. But the stat came out that 25% of chief data officers are women and we were sort of kicking that around and exploring it and one audience member posited, well it's because that role is a very difficult role to define and it's unclear the success path and it's risky. And so women said, all right, I'll take that on. I was somewhat surprised by that, should I not be? I mean, are women more risk takers in this field or I wonder if you have any perspectives on that? Well I think what's a lot of from what the research we've been doing and the people we've been speaking to is that women have to be risk takers and they have a responsibility to be stronger and be more pushy if they want to make it in the tech industry. But someone we were talking to the other day said it shouldn't have to be a woman's responsibility to be strong in order to get success. That's, I think it's the responsibility of the tech leaders to create an environment where you don't have to be the loudest or you don't have to be a risk taker in order to get success, but more to let your work speak for yourself. So I think that's another angle at looking at it, which is interesting. Well if you're assertive as a woman, oftentimes you're labeled with a pejorative if you're assertive as a man and it's always, he's a leader. I mean, obviously it's frustrating, but is that changing? I think again, it's sort of like a yes and no. Not enough. Yeah, the McKinsey and Lean In survey, which just came out in September, showed that even when women Lean In, which is kind of act more aggressively and do more pushback, when they act more aggressively, they're getting pushback from people because they're not used to having women who act in that way, and so it's creating some sort of uncomfortable power dynamics I think in a lot of these companies. So I don't know if that means that we just have to have more women who are pushing back, or you have to just entirely redefine what creates success with an individual company culture. And I think that does come back to having more women in leadership roles because they can help define success doesn't have to necessarily mean that you're louder than everyone else and more aggressive than everybody else. So I think that's kind of how you have to address that, is having women be the ones to create a wider definition of what success means. Yeah, there's this kind of Lean In, but don't Lean In here mentality. Lean In too hard. Yeah, don't Lean In too hard, right? Yeah. Well, talking about it more transparency obviously is part of the solution. Last question, what are you guys looking forward to at the Grace Hopper event? Things that you're excited about, want to take away? Let's start with Pooja. I think I'm really excited to go to the event because I'm going in with a lot of preconceived notions about what the industry is like and I'm excited to have those challenged and to use it as like a learning experience to write the stories that we're planning on writing. Karis, anything you'd add to that? Yeah, I mean, I just think we have a great opportunity with having literally 15,000 women in tech all in one place from across the entire country with a huge range of companies from the student who's just looking to get into tech after they graduate to the VP of engineering at Google. I mean, this is where you want to be if you're interested in tech in general and the fact that it's all going to be from women's perspective is just another opportunity to get unheard voices. And we're thrilled to be covering it with you guys on theCUBE. You two fellows along with Tori Bedford and then two other junior fellows from Palo Alto High School. So if you see them, you know, take them under your wing and mentor them a little bit. So thanks very much for spending some time with us on theCUBE. Appreciate it. And good luck at the conference. All right, thanks for watching everybody. This is theCUBE, we'll see you next time.