 We're a pretty good group now. So good morning, everyone. Welcome to our third day of our virtual MAND refresher training. It's good to see you all. Let me make this screen a little bit smaller so I can see my slides in a second. It's not easy. Okay. So this is what we're going to talk about today. Oops, there is something. Please ignore this bit in the middle. I don't know how that got there. Sorry. So we're going to have a recap of yesterday and we'll have a bit of time for that in the morning also to answer your questions. I have a bit of a discussion around what we talked about yesterday and then we're going to talk about the first two steps of phase three. So before I go into the recap, I actually would like to ask you whether one of you could perhaps tell us what were the most important points that we talked about yesterday if you can still recall. Yes, please, Mark. Good morning to you all and it's a pleasure to be meeting you all once again. Good morning. I think phase two had to do with especially the data collection experts that is supposed to feed into these three, which is the enterprise planning experts. I think the key point for me was ensuring that you are picking the data, taking cognizance of the five areas of enterprise development, including the market, including the environment and all the other areas. And I think one of the key things that also came up was the fact that we need to be able to do phase two on a much more regular basis, especially being able to review the EDBs on an annual basis if it allows to be able to take care of the exigencies of the time, because there's a change, especially in various factors. And I think Isabel mentioned the fact that the legal and institutional change is very, very critical to be moving forward in terms of phase two. And then of course, also getting participants, project participants to be part of the process is a very important factor. So the facilitator really needs to get especially entrepreneurs much more involved in the process of ensuring that the data collection is done very well, and also the interpretation of the data for phase three. I think it also emphasised the fact that data is very, very much required, and there's a need to be able to follow the capacity of small holders to be able to undertake the data collections. The number of data collection forms we've shared, and it's also part of the which I believe will definitely be used as well. Thank you so much. Thank you, Mark. That was a really, really good succinct summary of what we talked about and the different points that are important to keep in mind when we facilitate the data collection. Is there anyone else perhaps who would like to perhaps talk about something that was maybe a bit problematic for them and where they felt yesterday that was good that we talked about that and they learned something new or they clarified something? Any aha moments that you had yesterday? Yes, please, Tan. Yes, thank you, Kata. Good afternoon from Vietnam to everyone. I, through yesterday's discussion, I have one concern. If someone can help me, someone or Isabel help me to explain more about that is very good. As we know that in the second phase, there are three steps. In the third step, and then bring us to the form of business. In the rarity when we support the energy field, we sometimes did a little bit different. We changed step three into step one. So it means that after the two airfields choose the form of business, they all together to select in the formation and the information related to the products and collecting data to prepare for the business plan because you know that in the first phase, the steps of the first phase, the entry bringers, the entry bringers, they realize a benefit of the group work. So sometimes in the beginning of the second phase, we would like to change the step three into step one. Is that okay? Thank you. Yeah, so as you mentioned my name, so I will answer your question. Yeah, I mean, of course, it's perfectly right. As long as you understand the objective of the steps and you have enough data collected to take a decision of what you are searching for, for example, what type of form will take the enterprise. Actually, it's perfectly fine. That means also that you use very well the phase one. And actually, usually phase two is also depending what has been done or not done in phase one. So if phase one has been done perfectly and the local potential entrepreneurs has been involved in the reflection of what type of enterprise is feasible in our country, what type of status we can do as our own group, then of course, you can decide right away if all the information are there and all the people are clear about the potential options. If not, this is deepened in end of phase two because in collection of data of step one, they are supposed to deepen again this aspect if they have not done in phase one. And this is an example of, of course, MAND is only a tool. It's a process that you can use also according to your needs. As long as information are there and people are participating fully. So yes, Tang, I think it's perfectly all right if you change the sequence of the steps. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Isabel. Does that clarify your question, Tang? Does that answer your question, Tang? Yes, I understand. It means that it's very flexible for us when we implement it. Thank you. Thank you, Isabel. Thank you, Tang. Thank you, Isabel. I can see Grace's hand up. Please, Grace. Thank you. Good morning all. Yesterday I could not fill up the discussion. I had a network challenge, but I have some sort of, this is not a question, whatever that I want to understand regarding phase two. If there is a formal guide or a format that can lead on data collection, another thing is I want to know who are supposed to collect those data under phase two. But again, I was wondering if the intervention is new in the area, as in under my case, because what drive the potential producer to select to be keeping was the environment, but also the need of the community to get the honey. We normally, I can say we export honey from other regions from Tanzania, but we don't have enough honey from our place, but the honey is required so that there's a motive behind the group that let us keep bees so we can sell the honey within our community. So if, under that circumstance, also their data is collected, that's what I want to know. Thank you. Isabel, did you want to respond or do you want me to go first? You can, I don't know what you. Okay, so perhaps I park your first question regarding templates or a formal guide. I wanted to first respond to your second question on who should do the data collection. So ideally, because not everyone will be able to collect data, to have the time and also the means to also travel to places a bit beyond the community boundaries. It would be good for the group to nominate a few people who will serve as data collectors. And there is also a possibility, of course, for the group to put some money together to enable this person to buy bus tickets, etc., and to spend some time in different markets, talking to different informants. And ideally, those people should be mobile, should be willing to do this and travel, and be able to communicate well, understand the objectives of the data collection, why it's being done, and also be able to report back to the group. And importantly, also to record so they should be able to read and write so that they can record the data they collect in the field. And then your last question around the situation where you already identified that there is a demand for honey within your community, whether you should still collect data on this. My answer is, yes, yes, you should, because you don't know what the demand is exactly for what type of for what type of honey, what is the quality that you need, and there are some big differences in the quality of honey that you can produce. But also there may be further opportunities also outside the community. So you should also look beyond. And on your first question regarding formal guidelines, the toolkit itself, the ME&D toolkit does not contain formal guidelines, but it also depends on the selection criteria that you are going to identify for your product. So you have to be perhaps also a little bit creative and and see what is it exactly, what data do I need to collect for each product and for each area of enterprise development. I don't know whether Isabel or Jacques would like to add to that or to the other points I might talked about. Yes, no, I think you covered the point. Just to insist a bit on the data collection. And it was mentioned yesterday by Ivoan, I think from Vietnam, is when you need information which are out of reach for the local people, you may also link to some networks, existing networks, who have branches in other districts or other provinces, like a chamber of commerce or industry like a farmers organization or in the case in Vietnam, I think it was a women organization, I think branches everywhere. And then you can get information through these networks and it comes back to you at the local level. For the templates, I think, Katya, you mentioned it, you have in the Fitfa Citadel Realized kind of checklist of potential question or area of investigation. And of course, you have to own it and to make it your, adapted to your context and your products. So there is additional work to be done to prepare your own questionnaire. And most of the time we ask the local people, the potential entrepreneurs to participate in this, even writing the questions themselves, so that they start to really think through what they need for this product, etc. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Isabel. Grace, does that answer your questions? Yes, thank you so much. That's great. Is there perhaps someone else? Yes, please. I don't know what your first name is, Mr. Cimando. Sorry, you are in mute. Yeah, thank you very much. I think I just want to contribute to what my friend has asked about who collects data in phase one. In our Kenyan experience is that what we did was we also had community-based data collectors that we got from the FRPOs. And we took them through our training where they did their own checklist and they went to collect the data. And I think that is more sustainable. Also, we trained them a lot on simple skills of collecting the data, how to communicate, communication techniques, and how they can interact with the market actors. We have to train them on how they can interact with the market actors. And they came with very, very pretty good data that we used to develop the business plans later. So you may look within the FFPO and find that there's a group of people who are able to interpret the questions, who are able to talk to the local communities, and who are literate within the group. Then you train them on that specific aspect. Then the observation of the local entrepreneurs is also critical. The participation of the local entrepreneurs is quite critical because they have a problem of the facilitators making the data collection a top-down activity, maybe done from the project level to the community. And the community can feel very, very uncomfortable. But when you have this small group from the FFPO themselves going out to interact with the market, then of course you find there's a lot of trust that is being created between the groups and the market actors. So that's what you have done in Kenya, and I think it adds a lot of value to the entire process. So I would not join you for the last two days. I'll be available today and tomorrow. Thank you very much. Wonderful. Welcome. We're really glad that you can join us. And thank you so much for these insights from how you selected data collectors and trained them also. I think this is a really crucial point, which I was going to talk about in the recap of what we talked about yesterday. The idea that the data collectors need some training in many cases on how to talk with people, how to record data, etc. But also, so you wanted to come in again, please. Yeah. And also, by training the local community members, it creates a bit of sustainability and also cost-effectiveness in collecting the data because they do it at their own time at the local level. They make their own schedule, they go and collect the data. But of course, we need somebody to supervise. Sometimes you must have one also person at the local level who is trained to supervise and see that there is good data that is coming from the field. Thank you. That's really, really valid points. Thank you very much. Yes, indeed the inclusion of the actors in the whole MAND process is really crucial. Sorry, Jao, can you? Well covered, would you please mute your mic for a second? Yes, to create also the trust, but also to create sustainability, because then those skills will remain in place and the entrepreneurs will be able to collect data once the project has left in order to adapt to changing conditions and the situation around them. Bonjour, Jao. Good morning. Welcome. Thank you. Okay, is there anyone else perhaps who would like to still ask a question or make a comment on what we talked about yesterday or talk about their experiences, any issues they might have faced? Okay, well then let me quickly share my screen again. Sorry, I'm having trouble. Oh, Johnny, please. Yes, thank you. I'm happy to see all of you participating. I just want to remark that in this issue about data collection is very important to request the collectors and the producers to collect only data that are interesting for them and that they feel that it is useful and not overload them. We think that could be also a curiosity for us, for the guys who want to investigate something from them. Should be really something that they see the value to invest their time on this and they see also the impact or results of this data collection in their family and their lives. If we do that, they will do that with pleasure and will be also sustainable because they will see the results. Over. Thank you, Johnny. Yes, indeed, this is something that we talked about yesterday that it is important to discuss the scope of the survey and to not go overboard and collect too much data. And we said that in each area of enterprise development for small enterprises that is often sufficient to collect data around two to four different criteria in each area. And yes, and yes, and of course it's important that this data is reliable. So it's better to collect a smaller amount of data that is good quality and reliable data rather than a vast quantity of different types of data that might not be so reliable and useful. Consequently. Okay, so let me share my screen. You should be able to see my screen now. Yes, wonderful. So just very briefly, we talked yesterday. We first talked a little bit about the preparation of phase two and the transition from phase one and phase two and talked about how it's important to not let too much time go past and to also sort of check again whether everyone's still on board and whether there are any major issues they encountered in phase one. So try to correct those as you move into phase two. And then we talked about the data collection. And we said that the first point is market chain analysis. Because you need to understand whether there is potential market for the different product ideas. If there is none, there is no point in collecting data for the other selection criteria in the other areas. And then of course, once the data comes back, we talked about how the different products are then scored for the different areas for the different selection criteria and ranked and that this ranking is really a guide and not a fixed outcome. Saying the top ranking product needs to be chosen. It really is more of an indication of which products will face or which enterprise ideas will face less constraints as they move along in their development. And then we talked about this in the beginning but also in the end about enterprise forms and this complexity of setting up group enterprises. So I just have one more. Yes, I can see your hand up. Please go ahead. Thank you very much for giving me the floor. In fact, when I was reading the recap for day two, it is written analysis of market chain instead of talking about the value chain that need to be analyzed. So I don't know, are we just talking about market chain analysis or are we going to talk about the value chain analysis? Thank you. That's a good question. I would perhaps like to pass that on to my co-trainer Isabelle or Jacques. Jacques, do you want to take it or? Well, I don't know where Jacques is, so I'm going to talk to him. I'm here. Do you take this question? Before the beginning, there are two times. In the first time, for phase two, we do the analysis of the chain of commercialization because it allows villagers to understand how it is organized. You need to analyze the chain in phase two because this will allow to see how the value chain is organized. Yes, but if the entrepreneur would like to process its product instead of selling the raw materials, it would be important to see, to analyze the value chain. The marketing chain starts from the raw materials all the way to the final product. Therefore, the product can be processed at any level from the raw materials all the way to the final product. So generally speaking, the interest would be to see what is the initial product and what is the final product and see what happens right from the beginning to the end. So it might be at the end we have a different product or the same product. So it could have been changed or processed on the way. I don't know whether this is clear. I just realized I was on mute. Sorry. Yes, so I just wanted to very briefly also reflect on some of the questions or perhaps issues that came up yesterday. So here I called it pitfalls but really it was more sort of questions perhaps or important points to remind ourselves of from yesterday. So we talked about the complexity of group enterprises and we talked about the importance of being very clear about how benefits are shared within a group enterprise or and I think it was Clifford who talked yesterday about an example where a private business person hired group assets to run his enterprise and there were some some payments made towards the the group but essentially it was a partnership. So also in these kind of setups it needs to be very clear how benefits are distributed to the group members. So what is really important in whatever form the enterprise or a group enterprise is set up is that there is a clear definition of the activities of the group who does what and what do they receive in return. And so it's very important to define objectives of the group and the activities each activity. And it's this needs to be clear from the beginning. And then it's also important that an enterprise idea designed by someone else perhaps a project team is not forced on groups as this will not be sustainable. The group members really need to be able to decide freely whether this setup works for them and whether they benefit from it or not. And then just very briefly again we talked about this also just now about the a the importance of training data collectors but also the importance of building capacities of the facilitators because the facilitators are really crucial and their capacities are really crucial in accompanying and supporting the entrepreneurs as they develop their ideas and their business plans. So the facilitator should really have an idea of what an entrepreneurial culture is, entrepreneurial thinking, they should also have some good skills around data collection and interviewing so that they can pass this on to to the those who are nominated as data collectors from the group. So a key role for a FFPO business incubation unit could be for example to train the facilitators in these skills and these capacities. Okay, so I think we discussed all questions unless anyone else did want to have a final comment on yesterday. I keep looking on there as if I'm not, yes please ask her please. Can you please bring back your previous slide? Yes, that's for a moment, yes that's for a moment. Yeah on the issue of transparency accountability on this issue of complexity of group enterprises, the issue of transparency becomes very very critical and really transparency here will be looked at in many aspects. There is transparency leadership, there is transparency in financial management, there is transparency needed in implementation of activities and there's also in case the groups have gotten grants, then of course the members have to be very very clear about how the finances are being spent. What we have done in Kenya especially to define the activities is that we bring the group leaders together and then what we do is to make sure that we have a clear agenda, a very clear agenda with the group leaders so that they're able to move together with their groups and normally before implementation we love that kind of workshop in which we discuss their work plans, their budgets, their implementation modalities, the implementation mattresses so we have to discuss all that in a meeting especially with the group leaders. Then to enhance transparency we have a lot of trainings on record keeping, issues of record keeping at the group level. How do they do simple filing? Filing of letters, letters with folio numbers, all those things come in. How do they file financial receipts and also financial statements from the bank, financial withdrawals, all of those things come in. How do they take their own simple minutes, minutes of meetings, those things are critical in enhancing transparency and accountability within the FFTOs. The mistake that facilitators make is trying to force the ideas on the group members and it can be very dangerous. The facilitators should just facilitate processes so that things happen in the FFTOs but let the ideas come from the members. We are not saying that the facilitators cannot comment or cannot give guidance though they should be able to give guidance on an activity that they have been agreed upon and if it has not been agreed upon also the facilitator can also inform the members that I think this activity is good. It has all these advantages and disadvantages and I think you could consider it but just go think about it and you can discuss that one in a later meeting but don't force it on them. Don't force an idea especially a business idea, enterprise idea on the members especially on the products, let them use it by themselves. So that is what we have done in trying to enhance transparency and accountability. Then of course the capacity building for the FFTO is also very critical especially in enhancing for example interviewing skills. How do we enhance their ability to interact, their ability to communicate, their ability to interview. Those are critical issues that we do with the facilitators plus the data collectors so that they are able to be very efficient in carrying out the data collection exercise. Our business incubation model in Kenya, we have actually done business incubation model through exchanges, we find it more practical. If there is an FFTO doing very well, so we will take the members to that FFTO in an exchange visit and they will spend time with that group just to learn what they are doing and how they are doing things and we find that one very practical at the local level because it is sometimes very difficult to take somebody from a group and go and attach them in another as part of the business incubation model but if they can have two, three days interaction then they will learn how they are doing their thing, how they are doing their business, how they are doing their packaging and then they go back and do that one in their own FFTO. That's our model for business incubation. So thank you very much. Thank you Asuka. Really, really good to hear about how you've set up things in Kenya and I just had one follow-up question around you said in the beginning you bring together the group leaders and discuss with them the importance of transparency and also train them in using tools that will allow for a greater transparency. I just wanted to understand how does this then trickle down to the actual group members so that there is a sort of democratic a really democratic process and the group members can see that there is transparency and can actually also contribute to how the group enterprise is set up. I just wanted to clarify that. Yeah, that's a good clarification. Normally we also treat the leaders as TOTs, trainers. Sometimes and when we are also selecting the people that attend the meeting we also ensure that we have the participation of the youth within the group, the participation of women within the group and it's not only the leaders that we bring on but you also bring on very critical members of the group that we think are very critical in enhancing passing of messages and all that. So you bring quite a mixed grill of the leaders plus a few of other members so that they're able to go back and also inform the other members that this is exactly what you want to do on these areas of transparency accountability. Then we have also developed our own tools. For example, we have developed our own capacity development tool that we have been using with effort to use with effort and we have something on leadership which we also in our own when we are doing our own monitoring and evaluation then we also expose them to this. Sometimes if we feel that the entire group needs training on leadership then we give that particular training. Okay, thank you. Just another follow-up question because you were sort of explaining how you don't only just gather the group leaders but also sometimes some other members of the group and that they will then go back to their group as actors, as trainers themselves and pass on information. So I can see how there is an information channel going from the top to the bottom and does that also allow for information to go the other way from the individual group members to be fed back to the leadership and to these leadership circles in these leader circles. Sorry, our infusion or capacity assessment tool provides for feedback from the members. The members can provide feedback into their reports and all that and this will come to FSBAC for compilation for the entire project. Okay, that's interesting. So we allow a two-way communication process. It's not just top down but it also allows the members to actually input even to those small reports so that when they come now they come as a report that is owned by the members. Okay, thank you so much for these clarifications. Sorry for all my questioning. Yeah, thank you. Clifford, I can see your hand up please. My question also had to do with the one you just asked in terms of feedback but I was looking at the component of the TOT and I don't know what mechanism they put in place to ensure that people who have been taken through a TOT are actually able to pass on whatever learnings they have gotten to the entire group because I know for instance in Ghana many instances we do TOTs but then we don't do the follow-ups to ensure that when the people return they are actually passing on that information to the entire group. So I only wanted to learn from him from his experience what mechanisms are in place to ensure that people are actually able to deliver TOTs, further trainings to the entire group after they have received the TOT trainings from them. That is the clarification I seek from him. Thank you very much Clifford. Sometimes you must make a deliberate effort especially in your monitoring framework just to ask simple questions on what kind of information have they been able to pass to the members and which feedback have they been able to get back from their members. So when we are doing our M&D tool, we periodically update our M&D tools just to observe and see whether information is trickling down or is not trickling down. So you must have a deliberate effort to just see how is the information flowing within the group itself. Then I agree with you sometimes because of financial constraints then of course follow-ups become a bit difficult but within the group setup what we have done is that we have also created a small group that does monitoring, internal monitoring of the group activities. So that also assists us to get information about what's happening. It is very important for example if you want people to do issues of marketing properly. So within the SFPOs what we normally do is that we get a smaller group that is going to be in charge of the marketing aspect, another smaller group that is going to do project implementation, another group that is going to do monitoring of the entire activities within the group. So that also assists us to get feedback very very fast and know that this information is flowing and things are going in the right direction. Thank you. Thank you Oscar. Thank you Clifford. Okay any other questions right now? Then let me move along in my slides and talk about, start talking about phase three. So this is as a reminder where we are in the process. Phase three is so the objective of phase three is to formulate the plans for the enterprises and develop enterprise strategies and prepare for implementation. So the role of the facilitator in this phase is to assist the entrepreneurs to prepare their enterprise development plans and this will be done by analyzing the data obtained in the previous phase. So in phase three the entrepreneurs will describe the goals of their enterprise, formulate their objectives, develop strategies, draw up action plans, assess the profitability of the enterprise and determine capital startup needs. So the potential entrepreneurs usually have some difficulty in visualizing the profile of their enterprise solely on the basis of the data collected in phase two. So before they can go further they need to become familiar with the methods and tools they will use to develop the most appropriate enterprise ideas and strategies and this is what will happen in step one. The outcome of step two will be the enterprise development plans prepared by the entrepreneurs and finally in step three the facilitators will analyze the enterprise development plans together with the entrepreneurs, identify perhaps if there are corrections to be made or further reflections to be done and also identify the training and assistance needs in order to decide on a support strategy during the startup phase of the enterprise. So let's talk about step one to ensure that the entrepreneurs can prepare their EDPs they need to be familiar with the methods and tools used to define the strategies in the five areas of enterprise development. So the main objective of step one is to familiarize the entrepreneurs with these tools and during the step the entrepreneurs will also identify the best options for financing their enterprises. So I'm going to stop sharing now because I would like to have another chat with you to talk about step one of phase three and ask you how did you implement this first step and were there any challenges that you encountered in the sort of preparation of gearing up for entrepreneurs to prepare their enterprise development plans? I guess what I also would like to point out that it is the boundary between step one and step two is perhaps not so clear. So it's really I think this step if I understood this correctly and I would love Isabel and Jack to come in and correct me is to I mean they come back with the data collectors come back with this range of information and the step from looking at this data that comes perhaps in a format that is not really easy to understand or not really good to have an overview of is to sort of look at the different constraints and the different solutions that you've collected or the entrepreneurs that the data collectors have collected for the different criteria for the different enterprise development areas and to sort of try to start developing strategies to answer to those constraints and during this phase to also become familiar with some of the calculations they will have to make or some of the thinking that they will have to do before they start the calculations. May I add something? Yes, the boundary between step one and two is very arbitrary. Let's say step two is actually formalizing the document the enterprise development plan but to be able to do that you need a number of analysis of the data you collected in step two and which is step one. So you could perfectly say it's a big step producing the enterprise development plan with two sub steps would be analyzing the data and on this basis taking decision in each of the five areas and putting it in a form that would be readable especially for those that you will contact to receive some support to start your enterprise. So yeah it seems more clear and user friendly to split it in two steps so that there is analysis and then the document but as also time was mentioning before you could perfectly start your training saying okay you have these templates of EDP now let's see how we fill it in and doing that you need some pre-calculation you need some pre-analysis that means you will have to go back from the templates to analysis templates to calculation to be able to have a final enterprise development plan which can be presented to somebody else. Is it clear this what I'm seeking? I pose the question to the group are you do you have any question any questions on this please Oscar. Yeah maybe the Kenya experience and actually the different the boundary between phase one and phase two is very thin that's true but phase three is quite critical in now bringing all this data collector into perspective we just want to bring the data into perspective and that means that you you may need to hold in-depth discussions with the data collectors just look at trends our ideas you know so that you don't put into the business plan data that is quite way off yeah so I think that that is a that is a very important and then of course when making decisions on the five areas of enterprise development it is it is also very important that you discuss this with the data collectors plus the group members so that they're able to understand that this decision is being made on their behalf and it's them who should own it yeah you must ensure that there's ownership when they're discussing the five areas of enterprise development and what what we have seen in Kenya is that when we start with the small groups before even we consolidate them into bigger divisions and corporates the smaller groups can take some time to understand entrepreneurship yeah to have an entrepreneurship mind can take a bit of time and it's nice to be patient with them and take them slowly through it so that they understand that we want to convert them into entrepreneurs so they shouldn't be rushed so so fast let it develop also organically among them that we we want to change course we want to change from very small subsistence groups to big entities that are able to collect uh do joint marketing and all that so uh here the the facilitator has to make a decision yeah of how much data do you how much information do you take on board uh how much uh which of this information is critical and that's why I agree with the the comment that Johnny's apartment made earlier that you must be very you must actually target the most critical information that you need to enable you develop the business plan otherwise you bought these people with a lot of information and it doesn't become useful when you're doing the enterprise plan so that is that is what our Kenyan experience is uh that you must just ensure that the the most important data is collected in in phase one and phase two and that data that comes into phase three is the most critical data that you need to enable you develop develop the official enterprise plan thank you Oscar this was a really really good summary um of why why the step is important I really like the point that you made about giving entrepreneurs time to to to understand what what what entrepreneur thinking is and what is going to be necessary to to draw up their plans for that to to to lead them slowly and through the process uh it looks like Isabelle would like to say something just additional small point is also to see uh the flexibility of the process uh when when you think you are ready for preparing the enterprise development plan actually while doing it you may also find out that some uh information are still uh lacking so although you are still you are already in phase three there is no no no no no worry to go back and to have a very uh clear and and short collection of information again just to fit in one point where you lack uh you realize that you lack you lack some information so there is a kind of going to to to phase three and a little bit going back to to collection of information uh to to be able to actually fill in the enterprise development plan and to take a really based uh decision on this that's only what i wanted to thank you so much for this addition um is there anyone else you would like to perhaps recount their experience or has any questions on this rather fluid step one step two set up in phase three um perhaps i would like to take a step back if you allow and ask you um why is it that that we need to plan what what why do we need an enterprise development plan what what what is the what is the purpose of having having such a planning done and the the the purpose of having this document at the end of the process please tan yeah uh hello kata and miss disabelle and everyone um as a facilitator um when we are work with pumber we have to persuade and have pumber um understand about m&d and using tune to make edp but but um they don't have a habit to make a edp plan edp so uh first in advance we have to work with them and uh have them realize realize the the benefits of edp and um after discussing after discussing pumber uh uh realize that edp help them to make a clear view about what we what they will done moving that what they will do in the in this year or next seasons and uh help them calculate calculate uh more clearly about the money or cash what that they had and and and after that they make um um make um preparing for for for for the plan and also uh they um and the most important thing that or just uh uh each each pumber in edp have the same view about what the they uh what they will do in the next year or next season yes and many benefits maybe we can learn from other countries thank you kata back to you thank you toan uh yes uh yes great um interesting that you you've also started with you need to also as a facilitator lead to an understanding of what an edp is for and what are the benefits and you mentioned that it's the one of the main um um benefits of having in the edp is that the producers and the entrepreneurs are able to calculate um how their activities are going to pay off and and and what they will have to uh invest and and um and see where where they will be able to and how they will be able to profit from their business um and I would also like to take up your last point if there is perhaps someone else from another country who would like to to tell us why why why an edp is is is necessary or what what are the benefits of having this planning process and this planning document at the end please edwin thank you kata I'd like to agree with one that the edp provides a roadmap for the entrepreneurs but it also provides a you know a platform for the entrepreneurs to be able to source for support in terms of financing in terms of other kinds of support services from service providers thank you yes very important point thank you Edwin yes it is indeed um a formalization of of what the the entrepreneur is going to be about and um a very transparent document that will allow the potential financial service providers to see the logic of the enterprise and whether it's worth for them investing in this enterprise um okay um um and could you perhaps um talk about what are the different strategies that will that will form part of an enterprise development plan so we've talked about finances and and what other what other areas does an enterprise development need to cover to to give a full picture of the the operation of the enterprise and its its its impacts please mark we could not hear you yes yes thank you so much i think at the key other areas would have to do with the environment especially to do with the sustainability of the enterprise and the kinds of activities that the producer organization of the producer group would be undertaking towards the environment so for instance for a honey group you need to be doing certain practices um to be able to ensure that the environment sustains your honey business and also provide for um continued availability of um of of honey and then of course also apart from the environment you need to also look at some social institutional arrangements especially that you want to uh partake in uh as we discussed yesterday thank you thank you mark yes so environment and institutional institutional so the resources and the resource plan a resource strategy and a strategy around organization and legality wahangi would you like to compliment yes so thank you what i wanted to add is that the edp is like a dashboard for the future entrepreneur so that he can carry on his activities and then the aspect that should be taken into account in this edp is that they have to align for the five domain or for the development of enterprise not just finance and environment you have to think about the legal aspect you have to ask the question if the product that I want to develop is allowed in my country or not you have to take into account the social aspect as also the gender and equity aspect should be taken into account I talk about the legal aspect and then technology as well we should not forget technologies that are needed to be used in the project thank you very much yes indeed um and we've talked about this before and we keep repeating it it is that the five areas of sustainable enterprise development are of importance in every phase of the development of an enterprise and very critical also to include in the enterprise development plan so strategies in each of the five areas okay um I am quite keen to get to the calculations part so perhaps I'm going to share my screen again so we can sorry wahangi yeah oh okay sorry I thought you wanted to say something still so I'm quite keen to to perhaps show you the slides that I've prepared um on this particular step one and on the strategies very briefly let me just find my screen again sorry we have said that um uh the an enterprise development plan is a document that results from the enterprise planning exercise and that it describes the enterprise and the the different strategies um around the enterprise so and what is it useful for it's useful to assess future performances it's useful to communicate the intention of the business to um to clarify also the intention um not just towards perhaps financial service providers but also amongst enterprise partners perhaps if they exist um and yes the last point the last two points we've already talked about so convince um a service provider financial service provider that this this enterprise is is based on a solid plan and there is the necessary research has gone into into identifying um strategies for each area of the of the enterprise so it should be designed by the entrepreneur of course with support from the facilitator it should be realistic otherwise um in a real world it will not be sustainable um it should be comprehensive so it should cover all areas of the enterprise we've talked about this it should be very clear um and it should also convince the the reader or in this case for example a a finance provider that it was indeed also designed by the person who's presenting it so by the entrepreneur and not perhaps prepared by someone else for them and this will add to the credibility of the entrepreneur um and the enterprise development plan should be adapted to the capacities of the entrepreneur um so it really should be clear also to them so what are the different strategies and I apologize to our French speaking colleagues that this is only in in English um but I will talk through it and hopefully the interpreters will be able to to follow so the product assessment tables from phase two are really the starting point for the development of these strategies in the product assessment table the opportunities constraints and possible solutions for each product in each area of business development where um we're drawn up and gathered and now it's time to think about the potential solution to the constraints so converting really action points into specific enterprise strategies and as the general and we've talked about this in day one the enterprise strategies should be based on marketing and not on selling and um essentially the enterprise development is a series enterprise development is a series of decisions under seven categories so um there it will contain a marketing strategy a marketing plan so what is your competition what are its characteristics what market segments do you want to target what are the characteristics of your potential customers how will you set the price for your product what is unique about your product and then you will have an operational plan so how many units of your product do you plan to produce stock and sell um what are your equipment raw materials packing and utility requirements um and then you will have a responsibilities and management plan so if you want um the the five areas of enterprise development are sort of pulled apart a little bit because you have more than five strategies in the enterprise development plan so you will have a responsibilities and management plan so what will be the legal structure um how will you organize the organization what um how will you pay salaries and what will you pay in salaries and wages um and then you will have the resource management plan or the resource strategy what will you do to sustain your resources and what costs will this incur um and uh there is also the social uh development plan which is really important so what will you do to provide social benefits to the to the communities and at what costs to the enterprise will you conduct these activities you'll also have importantly a risk management plan so what could be potential problems in the five areas of enterprise development and what are potential solutions for those and very importantly of course you will have your profitability calculations and financial projections so what is your forecast for profit and losses and this is where you include depreciation fixed costs variable costs estimated sales revenues etc and we'll talk about these in a bit um here's where you calculate perhaps your break even point you'll calculate the payback period for investment you'll calculate your calculate your cash flow analysis and present your balance sheet okay so i'm just going to stop sharing again because um this is what i wanted to present on step one and now i would like to discuss with you um step two of phase three um so uh really i would like to see whether you've had any issues in using the enterprise development template that is contained in the in the guidelines and whether you actually used it and how did you use it with um with the entrepreneurs just to get a little bit of your experiences in this particular in this particular very important step was there perhaps a part that you find very difficult something that was quite easy for the facilitators to pass on to the entrepreneurs um interested to hear about your experiences and stories yes please grace yeah mine is not experience but i'm trying to think when i joined my organization i found that they they started to develop all the enterprise development plan but the way you have explained it it seems that it's the role of producers themselves to come out and develop their enterprise develop such document but the way i see my producers there it's like a a bit tricky for them if they can go around those questions the the important question that we have shown to come out with the document that can really help them so i will try to think is it possible for producers to ever maybe a consultant and explain to him or hand what they want to do and maybe to show the data the information that they've already collected based on them the one we has the knowledge to go within all aspects maybe to answer those important questions about the risk management profitability and all of those questions can support them to come up with a real or the something the document that you will live sound well and whoever can read it can be interested or can find a motive behind to support to support them thank you grace that's a very important and interesting question and i would like to perhaps make a first reaction and then i'll ask also isabel or or or jack to come in so perhaps a question back to you grace so if the enterprise development plan is prepared for the entrepreneurs by an external consultant um i mean we all understand that the world changes constantly and and and we will all have to adapt our strategies and however we go about life to the changing environment around us and that same is true for an entrepreneur and the the the market that they that they operate and but not just the market the the environment the the legal environment the social environment so there will be constantly changes to reflect on and adapt adapt your business strategy your enterprise strategy to these changes um so uh i just i just would like to sort of trigger your your reflections on this and how how could this spend then be done by an entrepreneur who might not understand what is actually his or her business about what are the different elements in it and how do they function if they do not if they do not the ones preparing it themselves yeah my thinking is that that that the person to write for them will not be somewhere else he or she has to visit them they give him or her the finding that the data they've collected in phase two and he can ask his father to know maybe how what they anticipate he or whatever based on the data that they've collected in phase two he can support them my idea is that to get someone who can support them to come up with a proper document that can be presented even to a donor or to a whoever who wants to support them because the way i see the the understanding it's like the tricky if you go to a mere farmer maybe with the lowest level of education and you want to him or her to like to explain the issue of a profiteur or or how much to produce it trying to project something that she who he has not started some sort of a tricky that's what i am trying to doubt if you maybe we we let it to be done by producers themselves we can end up with heavy documents that cannot be presented in this way i can see isabel has unmuted herself please yeah it's it's a it's a very key key aspect that you you mentioned now but let's say for sure there are situations where the people themselves cannot do alone their their their document but and and what we have seen in in in real world is that there is always somebody being their children being their neighbors being somebody of the local community or of the women's group or who is more educated than others or even who knows how to write and read and and count although the producer themselves cannot do it and that would help them to go through the document and record whatever the local people will have mentioned that means they will ask the right question in their own language and and actually it's also the role of the facilitator the facilitator can train some people who are from the local community but not the the potential entrepreneurs themselves and together they will develop this document it it's very rare that if it is somebody from outside that they will follow up on the during a long time and be there to to to adapt if it is somebody from the local community young ones most of the time it's it's some children like teenagers or help their parents to to go through that so that whenever they have to change the turn they know where it is they know what question to ask they have the information also available to them so that's what they wanted to thank you isabel that was um there was a very good yeah yes please check i agree with what they have been saying okay past two weeks to local people otherwise they will be lost on the longer term and but i think also it is really the role of the facilitator to support the entrepreneurs future entrepreneurs to fill up this edp or to understand what is the edp and to make it even if it is not well done that's not a problem then later you can ask to someone okay consultant or whoever you want to reorganize the edp as it should be done to present to donors or to whoever that's another story okay but the background should be done by the local people and and of course the edp format that is mentioned in the document it's just the format okay so you follow it you fill up the document but each country has their own way to present an edp so you have also to adjust with the country okay demand but really as isabel said we have to start from the villagers so that later on they can follow up thank you can i ask just a small point yes and to to come back to what chac said is that in the document of course you have one format but one format cannot adapt to all the circumstances if you have a very small enterprise with with very simple product not so so much technology etc you can also simplify a lot your your edp format for them so that it becomes also more user-friendly for your local people but you can have also next to the very small enterprises another enterprise who will be more medium scale processing unit and then you adapt again your edp to a more sophisticated type of enterprise so this is the role of the of the project team or a men d team to to to prepare this kind of thing before uh meetings the local people thank you isabel thank you jack and just quickly oska i just wanted to double check that um this answer was sufficient for grace it is okay now i understand but that's the background information we can the my scum from the producers and if they want to get maybe donors whatever is now they can move the consultant to make the count the their document to be readable according to the need of the donor maybe at their level now it is good for them to development their document thank you thank you grace please oska the floor is yours yeah i just i wanted to comment on the question by grace um she's asking whether it can be done by an external consultant or by the group members themselves but i think that all of the m ad team is to guide the process just guide the process and guide the group uh in kenya we consider the the entire the entire m ad process as a toolkit until we'll always try to make it very simple for the for the group members of the ffp os to understand the various concepts so normally we have a session to agree on what to use and what not to use and they may be true yeah we we normally agree with when we are planning our trainings with edwin and and and and the rest of the team members we we have to have a prayer meeting and we agree on what we really need to use for the members to understand this process then to the danger of using an external consultant is that the consultant may do a very difficult question that the members may not understand that is the that is the normally the problem of external consultants they may do a very difficult document that the members may not understand and fully on so for us to create ownership we involve the members as much as possible in those simple activities data collection uh interacting with with market actors that helps them also to understand the enterprise and how it is and how they can improve it then in those questions that that um that are put across in those many circles yeah in the previous slide one thing that we normally do there in kenya is that this is the moment for us also to ask ourselves how can the enterprise groups interact with the valetian actors yeah the interaction with valetian actors at that level so we ask ourselves which which are the critical valetian actors that we need to bring on board so that they start interacting from a very very early stage of the enterprise development plan i mean early stage of developing this plan so we we we think about who should we bring on board who is important who is critical so that they also come and share this information with their members and tell them this is how the enterprise is behaving this is what we look for these are the quality standards that we need so that is a very critical question also we have to ask in in in that stage which is the most critical question about the actors because when you bring in the actors too late also it creates a problem of trust among them and the and the enterprise members and members of the enterprise group so those are my two quick comments thank you very much thank you very much oska yes indeed um i just wanted to comment on your second point about the the creating those connections with the valetian actors i mean ideally this already happens before the enterprise development plan is formulated and it's an important part of the data collection in phase two tang please yes when we work with the entrepreneurs and everybody else we're following edb format in m&d document and just help them to fill in and through work through working with them we realize that it's a very interesting and really a learning process yes like we practice the all the steps in phase one and phase two where the everybody else can discuss and describe their products i identified the competitors and set the price and also how they can discuss how to market their products and the other side each other who to do what and through support them we have one thing i think we should do more or maybe we can access each other cash below actually this is the one we we have to spend a lot of time to support for the everybody else to do it as you know that most of the everybody else they are most of them are farmers and the the high ed education of them is a high school only very rarely everybody else they have someone who were very demented from college or university so it means that they don't have a background on accounting so it takes a lot of time and sometimes after working with them we don't feel the happy sometimes we feel unexpected it's quite complicated for them so therefore in this training i would like to propose that if possible the experts from FAO like Isabelle, Sophie or Dhoni or even Kata can help us to review again for the cash below to make it as simple as possible and maybe through this training we also would like to hear more about other countries how they can support MFBOs or entry trainers to prepare the cash below thank you thank you Tang so you're saying that the most difficult calculation is is around the cash flow analysis and admittedly it is the most the most complex calculation and you're saying that perhaps the guidance in the toolkit is very good all for the process but for the cash flow analysis there could be some more clarity on that so perhaps we could also go through it today so that already the people who are present here will will hear some clarifications if they have any questions now but yes just wondering because we have an hour left and I think it would be quite good if we could look at some of the calculations shall we move to that and then hopefully have some more time for questions later on or even tomorrow morning okay let me see where I am in my slides so I can see there is a lively conversation going on between Oscar and Twan that's great well let me share my screen again okay can you see my screen yeah so in step two a phase for the entrepreneurs will do all of the financial calculations and the I just sorry again this is only in English but this is just a sort of overview of all the different types of calculations and how they all fit together and the outcome of one will influence the other so it's just to show this in a graphic but the very first thing that the entrepreneur should figure out is the size of their enterprise so to have a first guess of what are the minimum quantities that they will have to produce in which market they will sell their products so which trader a short final buyer the selling price and the quantity for each market so that they will earn enough money to fulfill the financial expectations that they have expressed in phase one and these calculations are really only to get an approximate figure and as with all of the the steps and calculations first it's a little bit of guessing and then it becomes more and more concrete as you continue in the calculations of the different the different aspects so so this is really just to get an approximate figure to estimate the quantity and the selling crisis the new enterprises will produce so in other words it will help to help to figure out the size of the enterprise so how do you do that how do you roughly estimate the size of an enterprise in the market share it will take so first of all there is a decision on where the entrepreneur wants to position him or herself in the market chain and they will first calculate the average buying and selling price at each level of the market chain the average quantities traded and sold at each level of the market chain the transportation costs the packing needed and their costs and this will help them to decide within the market chain to whom the entrepreneur will sell the product so for this the following criteria are important where is this market located so is it easy to reach what will be the price of the cost of transportation to the market the selling price the how difficult it is to reach the quality that is required in that particular market and the quantity of the demand in this particular market so they will then estimate the profit per unit of the selected product and there is this is a sort of rough guidance on how they should go about calculating how much profit they will be able to make on a particular product and it really depends on what type of enterprise they're looking at is it if they're producers and traders they need to divide the unit selling price by two to give them a rough estimate again this is just a rough estimate of the of the the profit they will make per unit of this product so in this example the unit selling price for one liter of honey is 12,000 tons and shilling so if they are trading honey they will be able to expect around 6000 tons and shilling in profit per per unit per liter sorry if there are however if the enterprise is based on value addition and processing they should divide this not by two but by three or calculate two fifths of the unit selling price so in this example the selling price is 15,000 then the profit per unit would be 5000 or 6000 depending on whether you take one third or two fifth so then a decision on the size of the of the enterprise so to really estimate the production quantity required to meet the expected income that you want you have said for yourself as a as the entrepreneurs have said for themselves as a goal they will need to take their financial objective and divide it by the estimated profit per unit which we've just calculated in the step before so if this entrepreneur had decided that they would like to have an overall extra income from their enterprise to their household income of 2.2 million tons and shilling they need to divide this by the 6000 tons and shilling that they've just calculated as the price at the profit per unit they will get and this brings them to 366 liters so they will have to produce at least 366 liters of honey to be able to achieve their financial objectives said for the enterprise so then based on this they will be able to estimate how much of the market share they will take so they take the required production per month so this is what we've just calculated before and divide this by the estimated total demand in in their markets that they're that they're envisaging to to sell in and they will have done previous rough estimates of this demand so in this case they would divide the 360 liters by 12 000 so this is the this is the the demand that in their in the product in the market that they are aiming for so they will calculate through this that they will approximately take a market share of three percent and this is just also to to understand that taking a bigger market share is not necessarily a good thing as it is quite a risky thing you need to you need to you have many competitors you need to displace many competitors and it requires a lot of strategizing so the thumb rule is that taking up to 10 percent of the market share is something that is is still feasible to small entrepreneurs is there anything that yes please Oscar I've seen your hand up yeah normally we advise that let them start small and grow the business they should not choose they should not take too much that they cannot chew so they should grow it small take up a portion of the market share and grow that one gradually into what they want it to be because that also gives them an opportunity to to know the market to understand it better you know the challenges you have to know where to intervene and what support they need in the process so it's good when they start small and then they grow the business gradually thank you that is very important yes thank you can I answer yes please Jack okay I agree with you completely that's good and good good information but now we are working on the calculation and trying to size an enterprise so we try to size this that's biggest we can do and then later on okay when we do our EDP we can say okay now we are going to work the first year on the small scale and improve slowly second year increase increase increase but our target is this am I clear so now we are speaking on what is the definitive target we can say of the enterprise and now you are speaking about the strategy how to reach this target and I agree the strategy is very good we have to start small and increase slowly slowly slowly I hope it's clear for you thank you thank you Jack thank you Oscar are there any other questions on this particular calculation what what we have to be very clear also it will be what are the activities of the enterprise that means that has to be clearly decided among the promoters we can say of the enterprise exactly what they will be doing what this enterprise will be doing just to give you an example I'm speaking about Hone because it's the first that comes in my mind but in Hone there are different things in the process of what we can say in the Hone business that is one is producing the Hone from the Hone bees okay and the second one is to process the Hone let me to extract the Hone then the third one is to pack then to sell let's just concentrate on this so now we have to the enterprise has to decide if it does because the we can say produce the Hone process the Hone pack the Hone and sell it if the enterprise decide to do like this at that time the Hone bees okay or the Hone you can say uh house I forgot how we say okay will belong to the enterprise and will not belong to the farmers I don't know if I am clear so this we have to be very careful not to mix all this so if the enterprise does only the packing for example at that time the enterprise become a packing enterprise and not the Hone processing we have to see also the enterprise can do the processing so if the enterprise does the processing at that time it needs to have the tools to process and it will buy the raw material from the producer themselves but the producer will not be involved in the enterprise directly that will be there will be only people who will sell the raw material to the enterprise so all this I think has to be clearly clearly decided at the really beginning when the people think about the type of enterprise they are going to do thank you Jacques yes I guess it's it was a very good description an example of what I mentioned at the beginning of when I started talking about the how to decide on the market how to calculate the market share is that the the entrepreneurs really look at the the entire market chain and then take a decision on where in that market chain which position they will want to take so what the enterprise is actually going to be about is this is this what you wanted to can I add a little bit yes if you go back to the Hone story okay holding business if the enterprise does not do or we can say produce the Hone at that time the Hone producer has to do their small edp for their business for their at that time they become a producing enterprise and they can do a small edp for each of them for their own business and there will be a bigger we can say edp for the enterprise itself that will be processing or packing or whatever okay thank you are there any questions on on what Jacques just said are any reactions please yes just just I want to add on this and to insist that it is very important because we have seen so many projects where I would have not clarity about this the the raw materials suppliers are considered as a kind of part of the enterprise but they are not so and and that means most of the time they are impose a rate etc without themselves thinking is it a good business for me so it is important to have to see the the the point of view of each of the components of the chain I mean those who will will do the processing becomes an enterprise and they make their enterprise profile an edp for their enterprise but the the other who supply to the enterprise also it should be a small enterprise which is profitable and and environmentally friendly etc too so it is very good if they can do themselves a small enterprise and their small edp on that and sometimes they may they may find that it's not so profitable for them so this is a very important point which has been sources of problem in many projects that you are not clarifying on that okay can I add something yes please Jacques yes okay that does not mean that the producer of raw material let's say the only bees okay produce the raw material are not involved in the processing company that means they can be involved as we say as a shareholder they can invest their money in the or as a cooperative or whatever okay and then at that time they can also get profit from this enterprise that will be processing the whole net or packing or I don't know if I am clear okay yeah it's very important to discuss all these possibilities together with all the actors or we can say all the people who will be involved in the process or in the enterprise okay thank you very much Isabelle and Jacques any comments or questions perhaps in this still next time yeah thank you Kata thank you uh uh Isabelle and with Jacques gave some advice for us and I agree that the farmers should decide what they will do in the supply chain in each point of supply chain or what product to make in particular market segment according to the capacity and expectation of each FFBO is very important no need to do all the thing only one one thing or two thing depends on each capacity of FFBO and in Vietnam at this step it takes a lot of time and at the at the first time when we training about MND in Vietnam the time of the training cost was not enough for making a support thing making EDP and and after the training after the time at the training cost during we have to work with FFBO at home to support for them and during EDP preparation time we asked facilitate ask many questions to assist FFBO to consider carefully and make a specific EDP and um um I remember Mr. Tham also have a photo of us and FFBO working until midnight and at that time that was all even also a power outage but FFBO are still passionate about doing EDP and um in fact these day farmers often miss out on a lot of information for example maybe labor or maybe small material for for for the processing for product and therefore EDP does not include own cost in the production process nor doesn't it take into account risk according to five groups of factors and um although when training on MND farmers still do not want to change and still discard planning according to the old way of production okay facilitator team let the farmer do it and after that when working together to create a business to create EDP the farmer come up with reasons that surprise them that is in Bacca province if any household has a forest located more than one kilometer away from the road farmer will not be profitable after five years of preparation yeah and um when FFBO sees the EDP okay I understand now I we will discuss together and find a new idea and make new EDPs so that's a small story when we're working with farmer in Bacca province thank you Katya thank you toan for sharing this story very very always very interesting and good to hear about different countries experiences and looks like you had some really sounds like you had some very enthusiastic entrepreneurs working in the darkness um um yes so unless there are any other questions on this particular point now that we've just discussed I would like to move on and um ask the group um sorry so um where am I in my script sorry yeah such an interesting story term um so now the trainees have an idea of the size of their enterprise the the product they will do the the selling price etc and they can do accurate calculations um that will allow them to know the profitability the investment costs the cash needed during the first months and years you need for a loan and the costs of to run the enterprise etc according to the estimation they had done while figuring out the size of the enterprise so during this process they will adjust prices and quantities um investments machinery packing in order to make the business idea really feasible so this is a really um flexible process where there is a lot of going back and forth to adjust numbers to to then come up in the end with with the plan that that is solid so one of the uh and these calculations should be done in order because they will the the result of one calculation will feed into the result of the next calculation so one of the first things that the entrepreneur should should understand what are their fixed assets and I wanted to understand whether um wanted to know whether you could perhaps one of you could perhaps tell me quickly what what fixed assets are please welcome thank you uh these are goods that we buy in order to help us undertake the activity and that we're going to use over a number of years thank you yes so fixed assets are all the equipment um that are needed to run the enterprise at full capacity um and the participants should oh sorry the the entrepreneur should really do a full detailed list of all the equipment and fixed assets they will need to run their business um at full capacity and then cost each item um I think that is quite an easy calculation so far um so I'm going to jump to the next one so what would be this can I just add one thing yes please okay practically if you want to help the people to find what are the small equipment they need the machinery the building and all this you should help them to start from the really beginning that means from the raw material and to describe what they are going to do exactly okay on the time wise with this raw material to end up with the finished product and they they note all the equipment they need everything everything everything they come with a long list okay with they should not forget anything then at that time to do this you may do a group of okay the entrepreneurs of the people who are interested to work in it and each of them can participate that will help you also to understand and to see if the group you are working with is really aware of what you want to do because you will see that maybe they forget some small equipment or they forget some machineries or they forget so few things then you realize okay they want to do something but they are not sure already about it so they should work again on okay what are the machineries or equipment they need thank you Jacques yes that's a very important addition okay so now once the fixed assets are determined there will there are some fixed costs that that the entrepreneurs will have to calculate and I was wondering again whether someone from the group could volunteer to tell us about what fixed costs are what would you count under the fixed costs Jacques is your hand up did you want to say something perhaps not please my hand is not up okay yes yes okay please Jean-Marc please good morning I'm sorry it's not clear his internet is really great but he gave an example I got pulled off is internet costs for example okay thank you Jean-Marc unfortunately we we couldn't hear everything that you were saying we heard internet costs for example is there perhaps someone else who could who could add maybe if you switch the camera off Jean-Marc we could hear you better there is a lot of wind in your microphone would you like to add something Jean-Marc no I still it's not audible yes I'm afraid it's not we can't really hear what you are saying perhaps you could type it in the chat if it's if that's possible otherwise perhaps someone else from the group who could talk to us about what fixed costs are yes please so the fixed costs represent expenditure that is going to be in card in the course of the activity either for example in the whole year that means there is going to be different costs that are going to be in card in the course of the organization of activities so this includes the investments that we did at the beginning in order to understand the activities I don't know whether this is clear yes I think there is one important point about fixed costs and that is the fixed costs are those costs that have to be paid every month or every year at full capacity whatever the quantity of the product is that you're producing so I'm just going to give you so examples of this would be the salary for permanent staff so a manager for example someone who's always employed in the enterprise no matter how what the what the production level is at that moment it's things like insurance it's things like fixed taxes for the company not on your revenues but on the for the company itself and as we said it's your yearly depreciation and I'm going to come to that now um sorry sorry Jean-Marc we cannot hear you very well I think he was saying something we'll get to the fixed cost but we still can't get it I don't know whether he's written something in the chat okay let me see the chat nothing no okay okay I'm very sorry for that I hope you can still follow what we're saying at least so this is an example of a table to calculate the fixed costs I think that's fairly straightforward um so we talked about the yearly depreciation so I was just wondering again and whether someone perhaps could explain to us what that actually means and why is it important to calculate this well hangi I can see your lovely smile would you like to to tell us yes wonderful that's that's perfect yes so it's the money that you should put aside every year to buy new equipment once the the existing gets too old or needs to be repaired so this should be also detailed by all the the entrepreneurs there should be a detailed list of of the full the fixed costs at full capacity and the fixed costs will include also the depreciation costs um and then um there is something very similar around uh maintenance and repair but wait can I just interfere yes please I go back okay but no uh what what is very interesting when we do this together with the entrepreneurs the future entrepreneurs is that we can see if they know exactly what type of machinery or equipment they're going to use because they have to decide about what is the lifespan of the equipment and usually they discuss a lot to know exactly what is the lifespan of the equipment they're using for example the I don't know if they have an equipment to process I don't know honey or to extract honey then they should know how long this extractor will last and then when you facilitate the discussion you will see if they understand what they are going to do or not okay thank you it's the same or less for the maintenance please isabel you wanted to say something yeah I want to say that uh for for maybe um medium scale industry or there is a in every country uh the government also uh have a fixed list of for example for for uh buildings uh you have to count 20 years for depreciation uh for uh let's see tracks or cars it will be 10 years so they have themselves a scale of for for depreciation so it can be useful to just adopt the national uh model for that uh which is not true for small equipment of force that's all thank you isabel yes so then um yeah there's something similar on maintenance and repair and the the calculation of the costs for this so this is um a way to also save money every year to be able to repair and maintain the small and big equipment the buildings etc and there is usually a percentage rate that you could use um and this could also be adjusted to your as you like and according to your personal experience um but it's just making sure that you have enough funds every year to repair and maintain your equipment so for buildings this would be one percent of the costs of the building that you calculate every year as a fixed costs um for big equipment machinery it would be five percent over there about and for small equipment 10 percent of the of the costs itself the buying price of it okay um so then we come to variable costs and i've already given it away here but i just would like to again ask the group whether you could perhaps talk to us about what what is what what a variable cost what is the difference between variable and fixed costs perhaps someone else in boahangy it's always me no no i was just saying perhaps someone else i was just saying perhaps someone else it's always me yes maybe somebody else perhaps i was just saying perhaps someone else variable costs uh the costs that are linked to production and why is that what what are they what makes the variation fixed cost of the enterprise so the the variable costs perhaps um just to move along a little bit um the variable costs are related to the quantity that you produce so they will change dependent on how much you will produce so things like um transportation how many trucks will you need how many bicycle rounds how many rounds on the bicycle did you need will you need to to transport the product how much packaging material will you need what is going to be the salary of staff that you will need to employ when it's the picking season for that particular fruit you're going to process so these are all costs that will change with the quantities that you will produce in that season that's why they're called variable costs so again only entrepreneurs should do a very detailed list of all the variable costs uh and this again as jack was mentioning in terms of the fixed costs this will this will have to be i mean this will have to be produced with a very good understanding of how the the whole operation is going to work and what will be the individual requirements um at the costs associated with them that will depend on how much you produce um okay is this clear is there perhaps a question on this if we were in a classroom i would now say let's all get up and jump around five times because i feel like this is we've all quite down a lot but unfortunately i cannot do that anyway um so and come up with a joke just right now either okay so let's move then um so here is a calculation of the yearly income and that the yearly incomes are the total money the enterprise will get within a year after selling all its products so what is important to note here that this is not the profit this is the revenue the income so here i've put an example table and i would like everyone who does not understand the table to raise their hand now is the opportunity to ask questions on this but essentially uh the enterprise entrepreneurs will list the different products and they may produce different products so they may be involved in in different products they will list the quantity that they will produce that year and they will list the selling price that they have decided for that um and then they will sorry let me get my pointer so i can show you where i am and then they will multiply the quantity with the selling price and they will come up with a number and they will do that for all the products that they will their enterprise will handle and at the end at the bottom add all of these numbers they have calculated to come up with a total income per year if they sell everything is that clear or is there someone who would like some clarification or perhaps Jacques is a bit to add i think i think it more okay okay it's okay yeah i think it's all right no problem sorry it's okay okay so let me see where i am now what comes next so this is then the calculation of the yearly profit very interesting so here the yearly profit represents the money that the owner can actually keep um so it should be around that would be ideal um what the entrepreneurs have calculated or expressed in phase one as their their objective their financial objective for the enterprise um if it's not um then the entrepreneur with the with support of the facilitator will have to find ways to reduce the costs or increase the production or reduce the scale of their expected income so reduce their expectations a little bit um so they could for example decide to sell to another marketplace or reduce the transportation costs in some way or building construction costs and rather than building building new buildings rent buildings in the beginning so try to see how they can adjust the different costs and the different elements in their calculations done so far to achieve a profit that will match their expectation and let me find my point again so here is a very simple table um they will add up the yearly fixed costs and the yearly variable costs these will be the yearly turtle costs and they will have their total yearly income which we've calculated before so the yearly profit is your yearly income minus the yearly fixed and variable costs added together any questions or comments while we're doing in time still have 15 minutes please waranghi I thank you very much now that we have calculated the yearly profit of the we have always had the habit of going to see if it corresponds to the benefits that we have defined at the beginning to be able to improve the living conditions of the workers and it's a systematic approach within us to see if the company is able to really respond to this is on how to say yes thank you I think that's really important waranghi because otherwise there is no point of an enterprise because it will require lots of investment in terms of times resources etc but if it does not match the the objectives of the of the entrepreneurs there's no point in pursuing that particular enterprise idea or they need to change how they set up the business um I saw Jack's hand up but I also see Oskar's um okay Oskar would you like to come in and then Jack oh thank you thank you Kata um normally when we are discussing fixed fixed costs and variable costs I normally use very simple examples and very practical examples from day to day life so you normally will ask the group members how often do you buy your your shoes for example you know and then if you buy a new shoe today how long will it take you to replace it but those are or if you buy a new blanket or a new mattress today you know how long will it take you to replace your mattress so we we use very simple practical issues so that they may understand the bigger issues so you have to start very simple to explain that if you buy a machine today after some time it will it will it will get worn out and you need to replace it because it will be very expensive for example to maintain it or it may break down completely and if that is going to slow down it will make sure that your production process comes to a halt so you explain those things using very simple analogies that as a human being you are not going to put on one shoe forever or or one one pair of clothes forever for you you have to change them at some time and that creates an understanding between between the group members that there are some of those items that they have suggested to use even if they are machines and all that these machines will be old they will need some some costs to maintain them they need some cost to run them so that you have to create that connection between the group members and their day-to-day life so that creates a very good understanding between them so because somebody may ask ah will they understand what a fixed cost is or a variable cost is if you go directly and say these are a fixed cost they will not understand but if you go and ask them from very practical life experiences they'll tell you when I buy when I buy my my for example there are simple tools to use at home and then you ask them after how long are you going to replace this tool it could be a machete a panga you know it could be a wheelbarrow you know and and from there they'll come to understand that eventually this machine becomes obsolete and you have to replace it and you have to get a new one so that's that's how we do it sometimes very using very simple practical examples thank you very much thank you osuka that's a very very good advice I think to use very practical relatable examples to do these calculations I can see Yvonne's hand up please Yvonne we cannot hear you no we still cannot hear you yes now we can hear you yes thank you thank you very much kata we think that's an early profit we agree with you internally but now we saw some problems from the early profits and calculation how we have to uh for this because the sometimes the FPO uh have the they have to borrow money from uh bank for for buying machete and it belongs to a variable cost and they know about the interest of bank they have to pay for example after a year or six months they can calculate and they have to calculate in the another expenditure in the yearly variable cost but we have another case when they they they sell their material and product for other stakeholders in value chain or for distributor at the beginning maybe they will pay the money back for our FPO very on time but now we have some cases cases that the enterprise or the distributor or retailer sometimes they pay back the money for our FPO very late maybe after six months even in the contract they they set that they will pay back after one month but sometimes they will pay back for later than three months or six months and in some cases very long time when they pay back this is this also influence to the back profit of FPO this is why when we have our FPO we only got we very concerned about how oh they can negotiate with the buyer on the contract selling or contract distribution and we also advise our FPO if as a first transfer of product they do not get the cost back from buyer maybe we have to consider in the second time but even in the second time if they do not pay back immediately after two months or three months we have to stop because it's a very rich cases if after six months they do not pay back at all sometimes almost our profit of FPO will broken and maybe sometimes we have very rich yes this is the happen in our FPO in Vietnam this is why I think that we have to very carefully when we work with the retailer and this rebuilder and very concerned maybe after one transfer or after two transfer if they do not pay back totally maybe we have to stop yes thank you Yvonne and I think there are two points there that three points perhaps that that could be learned or that could be deducted from what your your your experiences and first of all is that before you start implementing your activities you will you will have all of the different strategies in your enterprise development plan and in this case in the risk management strategy you should consider the risk that some of your buyers may break their contractual agreements and so they the entrepreneurs should really right from the beginning have potential solutions identified in this case and the second point is that I think the cash flow analysis is a really important tool in that and that would be the next thing that we talk about and I think we're going to talk about it tomorrow morning to give it enough time and mental resources but it's a very useful tool for the entrepreneurs to understand if all goes well and according to the contracts how much money will they have to play with at the end of each month and will they actually be able to invest whatever is needed in the second month into their production or will they face cash shortages in the first three to six months and will actually be inoperable and the third point I've just forgotten oh no so yes the third point was that that sort of highlights also what Isabelle was talking about yesterday around the the flexibility and and adaptability and what you just said you want and also that if you see that after a couple of months things are not working well for whatever reason you need to change strategy adapt your strategy to the changing situation I could see Isabelle wanting to make a comment now okay can I just add one thing yes please yes okay so this yearly profit okay it just an an idea it gives you do this calculation gives you an idea there may be many other problems okay later but that at a certain time when the company will be running at full capacity we may earn this money and what is important for the entrepreneurs is that they realize that if they enter into this process at the end of each year okay this money will come to them and then we are in really concrete concrete thing now people can imagine or can realize okay I produce one ton of tomato I will sell in this place so I will earn this money and then it's concrete that's just what I wanted to add sorry I had trouble unmuting myself thank you very much Jacques we're nearly run out of time but there are certain calculations that we haven't looked at that are very important where we actually saw that in some of the edps that you have sent in before the training there might have been some problems and and that's the cash flow analysis so I would suggest that because we do need to stop on time that tomorrow morning we will have a quick recap of all the different calculations we looked at so far and I would really encourage you to reflect back in the past where you've maybe had problems around the calculations that we've talked about so far and then once we've done that we will we will tackle the cash flow analysis and some other calculations if that's if that's agreeable to you let me stop sharing so I can see you is there perhaps one more question now that you would like to have answered on all the things that we've talked about so far we have two minutes left yes it would be really good for us to get an understanding of where perhaps what were the calculations that entrepreneurs had difficulty with when you were implementing MA&D so we could also discuss that tomorrow morning what they found particularly easy to do which aspect of the enterprise development plan there was struggle with okay so if there are no more questions for now I would like to thank you all very much again for being present and for for working and and being focused and and I will see you all hopefully tomorrow same time same place thank you everyone bye bye