 Let me tell you something about black magic first, it's quite real and second That organization is part of it That's today's guest Whitley striber who I would maintain is one of the most important Figures in our who are we why are we here history? Here's a clip from the 1989 movie communion, which was based on his New York Times number one best-selling book of the same name, which really doesn't even give it Credit in terms of the significance it had to our culture, but Here's the People who've seen the same sort of things you have which group of aliens abducted you Bob. We are not victims. We are participants So there's some pretty dark stuff there, but Whitley does offer a path forward a way out of the vortex There's only one way to escape and that is to live a Life of love Compassion and humility if you do not actively work on that You will not escape Welcome to skeptico where we explore countries feel science and spirituality With leading researchers thinkers and their critics. I'm your host Alex Icarus and today We welcome Whitley striber to skeptico He's here to talk about his new book which we have up on the screen there on Amazon a new world Very affordably priced. I've got a little discount on mine, but eight bucks just an unbelievably classic book but we'll get into that in a minute and We might also learn what's going on with his very excellent website Unknown country and of course his podcast that I'm sure many of you have checked out at various times dreamland so You know Before we jumped into all that I wanted to pause for a minute and Bring a little bit of perspective to today's talk Because you know as I kind of said on this show there really are only two questions Who are we and why are we here? So if you go look at science, that's all science really fundamentally is ever-asking That's all philosophy is ever-asking. You might even say that's all religion is ever-asking and If you look at those two questions and you look at this new now Declose disclosed reality about the lights in the sky about the craft that has been video released on the department of defense and the New York Times and all the the news News reporters it's on mainstream news everybody and if we think how Fundamentally that has shifted that has answered or at least begun to answer those two questions Who are we? Why are we here and then you're asked yourself name one person? One person who you would say is most at the center of that monumental shift in all of history of answering those two questions paradigm shift now We have a whole new way of answering them Whitley striber has to be in there. I mean he has to be I think he's the one but he's certainly one of the very few so there aren't a lot of Seminal events in this kind of paradigm shift this new understanding of who we are and why we're here But maybe if we were just gonna pick out three of them randomly We'd say okay, maybe Roswell that certainly kind of was a paradigm shift No matter what you think about Roswell no matter what your opinion is a Second one would be the current round of I don't know Disclosure, I guess we could call it that we're going through the some people call it a sigh up But it certainly is an official semi official disclosure But the third event would have to be the publication of Whitley's book communion, which if people don't remember because they're not older when communion Was in the bookshelves back when they had bookstores it stopped people in their tracks They were not not mesmerized. I was gonna say but that isn't the correct word they were They were transformed By their real memories of things that had happened to them That's how significant that book was it shifted our whole perception of this phenomenon from a nuts in bolts technology phenomenon To an experiencer phenomenon Whitley did that and then he changed it again along the way just by his own raw Discovery and sharing that discovery with us he shifted it again to a consciousness centered Experience saying that it's not just about the experience It's about what the experience means at that consciousness level and then finally if you followed his work in the last few years He shifted it again in the most significant way from a consciousness centered Which really means mine for a lot of people to an extended consciousness perspective the work with his Departed wife and and her near-death experience and then her after-death communication and Whitley's ongoing Extended consciousness communication with these ones that he calls the visitors and what that means at a deep Dare I say spiritual level, but we have to because that's what it's at It's phenomenal phenomenal person in our in our history which We just don't we just don't appreciate it. Do you have any? Any thoughts on your position in all this your legacy position or anything like that? Yeah, I certainly thought about it a lot You know, how did I end up dropped into this particular? bag I Was not living a life that was connected with this in any way when I was When when it happened at least that's not I thought I was But that wasn't the case my uncle And my father were involved in the in the whole secret world in some ways my uncle pretty much opened up to me and introduced me to general Arthur Exum who I based what they told me I based my Novel majestic on what they told me about Roswell and the aftermath of Roswell And since then I've pretty well gotten the whole story straight. So I have a Really quite accurate timeline from there to here and The difficulty has been that I've been asked to keep Secrets in in in some cases and there are therefore holes in the narrative and I'm hoping that I will get some kind of closure on this at some point But as far as my personal life is concerned, I Wrote a book years ago called the secret school Which is a sort of an exploration of Strange childhood memories or are they memories? I've never been sure Some of them. I'm pretty sure of Ironically the one I'm most sure of I did not Mention in the book because I didn't remember it when I was writing the book only later And that is that I was in some kind of very intense and very Disturbing Educational program as a little boy. I thought at first it happened in 1947 when I was Would have been three or four But it actually happened in 1952 and It involved it. Yeah, it using something called a Skinner box exactly and I was Very unsure about this memory Until I mentioned it to a man who is in an entirely different World an entirely different career path from mine a very successful man one of the world leaders in his field who also happens to be arguably my closest friend and We have been friends since childhood and our family friendship You know in the southeast and anywhere in the country for that matter these family Friendships can go back a long time goes back three generations now and our kids and grandkids of the fourth and fifth So it's a long friendship and I trust him deeply. I trust him. I would trust him with my soul And I mentioned it to him and to my amazement. He said well, you know, they tried to recruit me, too. I Was seven when this happened He was not and and there's a great deal of difference between the mind of a seven-year-old and a nine-year-old He remembers very well being in the room When the two Air Force People a man and a woman who his parents knew they were friends tried to recruit him for the program and They they pitched it as a program for extremely bright children and that there would only be a few people in San Antonio selected for it only five or six children and He was one of them because they had that the Air Force had been behind the general general IQ testing of children aren't you lucky Aren't you the lucky not not really? But and you know when I heard you when I heard you first time I heard you tell this story. I was stunned by The your openness about struggling to come to grips with it and how The account of your friend and his parents who basically said get the hell out of here You're not putting my son in any skin or box. I don't care what you call it And what you keep adding to the story which is is just revealing more and more layers Whitley It's not like you're adding anything to the story. You're revealing more about the story But the two things I just want you to touch on about that story was number one that your For it's a horrible word complicit But your family was complicit in this at a level that you didn't understand until you were much older So there was no option on the their part. They had already kind of signed up for this We don't even know what they had done before I don't remember the other thing I remember about your story that was particularly Pointed to me and and I want you to retell it if it's true But you dressing up as you're in your sunday best to you know go for the special program And sitting and waiting and doing that for the first weekend But then the second weekend you had this like fear and panic and the parents were like, oh get ready Whitley We're already and you're like Not even knowing how to process that but saying this is not something that's right Or good or proper Well, first of all a couple of logistical Corrections. It was thursday nights not weekends uh, and it was and we were When mother began to dress us For this to get us to dress because she wanted us to look our best My parents had no they had not been told the truth about what was happening. I'm sure um Let me let me go back to the strange one thing my father Has to have been one of the most tight-lipped human beings who ever existed he was very very Kept everything everything very close to the chest but um colonel guy hicks Who was the officer in command? uh when uh captain mantel Back in 19 in the early 50s uh flew uh his Mustang toward a ufo and crashed And it's a famous ufo incident the mantel incident His family ended up living Just down the just a just a block away from us And my father and mother specifically sent me over there to play with his children And I remember Perhaps them asking me questions about it, but I I don't remember in any detail Uh, but what was going on that he was even there and there was an fbi agent who lived down the street across the street from us So something was up That and you're right. I think when you say there was some kind of locomotion there I don't think my parents realized how traumatic this was going to be I they probably didn't know what a scanner box was but the other parents the the husband was a trial lawyer And he had been involved in a brainwashing case And so he knew everything there was to know about Mind control and mind changing systems and so forth So that was why they declined To let their child go into this It was pitched to the parents as He tells me I don't remember my parents never mentioned. I mean about what they had been told Uh as a real honor you know that and but They took my sister and a boy who lived across the street with us with me because They what they were really going to do Was not pleasant and they they needed I think they needed Some companionship for me because I think I would have been too panicked to function Had I not had other children who were familiar to me with me As I recall there may have been other children involved. I have all kinds of weird half imaginary half maybe real memories of Of uh That I don't discuss because they're too vague and too incendiary really But I do remember one time being uh, so upset that they took me to the flight line and uh Now this did happen on a weekend and they they dad took me out to the base to the air force base and uh, they showed me around And they were very nice to me and they took me to the flight line and let me sit in a saber jet and and they were trying to make my Make me more comfortable there And but that didn't work And this the the program started in august just before school started about two weeks before school started, I think By october My immune system had completely collapsed and I was getting Sickness I was getting cold after cold disease after disease My mother took me to our doctor And he told her that I had no white blood cells And she mentioned she talked about this before and the result was that I was taken not to uh A hospital Like a local Like a local children's hospital. I was taken to brick general hospital the military hospital And I was isolated there for about Uh, it may be three or four days. I know mother came and slept with me one night or maybe all nights I don't know and I was given shots of glamour globulin Then I was taken home And not allowed to go to school And not allowed to see any other children Until uh, the until the january of that year came I was I was out of school until january That was in october and I was no longer in the program So that's that that's what happened I I attribute the visitors coming into my life Somehow or another to that program I'll me to kind of lay out a couple of connections that I've stumbled upon and I want you to comment them on because you have You've laid out these threads, but I appreciate that you are reluctant to Stitch things together in a neat and tidy way when it doesn't belong in a neat and tidy way And I really respect you can't do that then you're then you're living an illusion Well, and and that's why we we trust you and that's why you know in your book You you say at the beginning that you're not a liar and you don't Uh tolerate You don't tolerate liars and I love that because that's what we need So a couple of pieces to string together here one, of course is the mk ultra program Which all indications would seem to point to the fact that this was part of the mk ultra program People looked into it know that you know, it's not just a couple of doctors up there in canada Filling around there 150 programs at least that we traced before they shut down all the information many places throughout the united states One of the little tidbits that I picked up from UFO researcher Grant Cameron who I like and respect and he had a great point about the Wilbert Smith memo that's pretty famous and was released back in the 50s through a freedom of information act I won't repeat that sir because I've told it so many times and I'm sure you know it but You know, he's a canadian He's working the canadian weird desk if you will And finally he enough UFO stuff piles up on his desks that he's he tells his boss I need to go down to the states and he goes down and he meets vandiver bush and he meets all these other guys And they say you got some good stuff. So you're in the club We can tell you a little bit about what's going on and they say yeah, this is the main thing the ufo thing is the thing Pardon me But what he threw what what is in the wilbert smith memo to his boss that was never supposed to be public Is the last sentence says They understand it to be a mental phenomenon And are pursuing it in those lines and He suspects and I agree with him That the rise and the impetus for the mk ultra program was at least partially if not significantly driven by the fact That they had made some kind of contact and they had immediately had to give up this idea of this materialistic You are a biological robot In a minute because they were speaking they were communicating telepathically and then they In typical military fashion, then it became okay. How do we do it? How do we weaponize it? And so that's one thread. I want you to pick up on but the other thread that's really sad Is the splitting is the disassociative identity disorder and the weaponization of that as we've learned through cult practices Through santic satanic ritual abuse practices in the very real way that we study it among criminals who do that That this is somehow in some way. We don't completely understand a tool a mechanism To crack people open To somehow make them more pliable in this extended consciousness realm that again, we don't completely understand Well, I think that what happened to me in that Three or four months period Cracked the cosmic egg. I know it shattered my sister and it shattered the boy from across the street. It ruined their lives And I attribute they both had very difficult lives And I attributed to this because I don't see there's anything else to explain it It was a very placid normal 1950s neighborhood, you know, in other words, there was nothing there except this that to make them what they became and uh The boy across the street Lived at home. He barely He had sort of a marriage, but he was He lived in in the in the room he grew up in until the day he died at 53 and He was interviewed by edward conroy and he mentioned remembering something about our childhood that I think Was verifying in a way that somebody didn't like And that's my theory because of course What i'm going to tell you is involves a va hospital. So it could have just been malpractice but uh, he fell off a ladder And went to the va hospital and they loaded him up with so much Cortisone that he died And I don't know if they murdered him or it was malpractice could have been either but uh the And my sister had a very difficult life. She could never settle somehow To my knowledge, neither of them had any memory of the events that took place in uh In at randolph and i'm they both died before i were my the Neighbor died before I remembered it and my sister didn't have any memory of it. I asked her about it when she was alive She's passed on now but What I think is this with regard to mk ultra When the files were released the judge ordered Allowed the withholding of a quite a number of records which are still classified and still are hidden away at this point I'm not sure they can be legally classified anymore I think it was 44 boxes of files. In other words, a lot of files I believe that these files Probably included maybe among other things uh material about This type of program and they were withheld because it was so incendiary That children had been involved But children still are involved It's not over it's not over and you know and you talk about ritual abuse and The bizarre story of the finders comes to mind which you may have discussed on your show before Yeah, you're nodding. So I'm I won't go into it in too much detail, but I know an enormous amount about it um Uh and in this program was Very like in some ways. I think what what was done to us and what was so very chilling to me was When I read the finders material first when it first showed up years ago back in the in the in the 80s I was shocked Of course, but then later when I remembered my experiences More clearly back in the in the late 90s Of randolph. There was more to it than that. There was also a trip to mexico to Monterey when would when does that fit into the time frame? Uh, I'm not sure. I I must have been It must have been during that same period Probably in my seventh year Uh, and it was in the it was I remember the flight was very Exciting to me because we I believe we drove drove to el pass up to Laredo and then flew To Monterey, but it was on a wonderful One of those old Ford trimotors of an old airplane, which in those days were still flying in Mexico Uh, you know, they were not, you know, this was this was the early 50s. And so they were still in operation And I found that very exciting um In any case in the finder's material, you will find that the children said that they were They were had recruit been recruited because they were super intelligent and they were on their way to Mexico And that shocked me and frightened me and the reason is I have Which I am not going to go into detail about because I don't know their their Their their their locomotion within my mind I have horrifying memories of that place uh when I went to Mexico with my wife Some years ago We stopped in Monterey. We stayed at the same hotel. I had stayed in with my sister and dad the grand dancera Really? What why did you choose to do that? I wanted to well, we we were going to meet friends in In in Mexico. We I I'm part mexican. So I have a lot of mexican friends friends and family But why go back to that same hotel? Was it closure for you or I was trying to I was trying to Reignite the memories. I did it very intentionally And then I also drove up and down the streets in the hills above Monterey trying to uh Trying to find the place frankly and I never did I didn't find anything that that uh That that was connected that that that's Truck any familiar cord in my mind. I didn't see anything that I would say was that oh that was the place That was what I was trying to trying to read to to reconnect with with buried memories basically And I failed but I'm sure that that happened and If it was if the memories I have of it are true Then it was an absolute nightmare And the purpose of it would have been To cause the children to feel guilty and to therefore Cement their loyalty I wrote a book called in Hitler's house under a pseudonym of jonathan lean which Mentioned something that hitler called a blue ticket The blood Blood Loyalty and the way this worked was When a person was inducted into the ss They were made to Do something really really terrible That everyone else had done In the group and then they it made them feel Part of the group and they had a horrible secret so terrible. They could never tell anyone this is also what was used in the recruiting of children in in Africa in in in the wars that used child armies I mean this is standard standard playbook gangs blood in blood out You know every criminal organization has picked up on it. It's been around for a long time doesn't make it Better or anything like that No, but it it was I think it was first articulated by hitler himself Can I interject a question because when you're talking about the finders and I don't want to trace that whole history for people Can go back and find it in this show and in other places and john brison was the guy We've interviewed who's done some terrific work original research interviewing Uh martinez who is the customs officer his partner in dc who kind of cracked the case Here's which interesting about the finders which I'd like you to speak to is The horror the weaponization I don't take horror out of it because it immediately throws people off The weaponization of these extended consciousness realms Leads together into multiple purposes like you're saying one. Hey it It silences people they're bonded now. They can't they're bonded through fear. They're traumatized and they can't do that It also creates a situation where you know in the finders cult We can now find. Hey, isn't this a tool to blackmail other people, you know And the we do a jeffrey eppstein brown stoning operation way back then which they were doing but again cross purposes But the third aspect of it, which I think Is really most intriguing To me and I suspect it is to you too because I seen your writing on it is The breaking open the cracking open in order to create An entry point for Extended consciousness including the visitors including what we would call demonic beings and again, this is I interviewed, you know, dr. Tom Zinser is a clinical psychologist in Grand Rapids, Michigan who worked 20 years with a lot of people with dissociative identity disorder and many of many of them satanic ritual abuse victims And then is exactly his finding is that that's why they do it They intentionally try and create this d. I. D situation Because without even fully understanding it. They know it creates an entry point and I wonder if we were As horrible as it is if our intelligence organizations had halfway figured that out and we're fooling around with How to create that that entry point You know, let me let me tell you something about black magic First it's quite real And second it's like flypaper You touch it. You can never escape Can never escape An organization touches it That organization is part of it every one is a country too And it it the more you try to escape from it The deeper you get There's only one way to escape And that is to live A life of love Compassion and humility if you do not actively work on that You will not escape and you have these this whole community of people who are Who are so arrogant. I know many people in intelligence work I grew up in a family that was involved in it for god's sakes And it makes people arrogant To if if you can if you can know secrets that your neighbor can't know It feeds the ego in a very sick way You have to work hard to be humble You know the first lesson the visitors When the visitors really started to work with me the the graves. I mean Uh The first lesson was a lesson in humility Now the dark side is extremely clever And it would know that I might be drawn in To Accepting it as not the dark side Because it gave me lessons in things like humility and compassion But you have to live those lessons And it might it very well give you those lessons in an effort to recruit you into something very dark In to trick you into believing it's the demons want to trick you into believing their angels But If you get deeper than that You find you're in control You can control it and these all of these asses Who were trying and are trying to basically engage the dark side on behalf of the united states of america have Failed in that respect in my opinion and you keep seeing little things bleed out like the like the jeffrey eppstein stuff and the and the the uh Recruitment that took place for years inside the catholic church, which has been been publicly exposed as ritual abuse, but the but the deeper Processes of recruitment that were involved have never been publicly exposed and probably never will be but they they're there in my opinion And then the eppstein case What happened to all of the videos? This is a silence has come about that who has them I remember back years and years ago You know my family had a lot of connections politically in texas and there was much laughter about the fact that lbj had gotten a hold of some film of uh j. Edgar Hoover dancing around in a dress And that film resulted in Johnson getting a hold of all of Hoover's files Hoover's secret files on politics johnson took over from Hoover basically and uh Then later, of course it was revealed that it was all quite true and Hoover was a cross dresser and there were big parties fbi parties with cross dressing and stuff People who do those things There's nothing wrong with it now in other words we've we've we've we've uh we've disenfranchised That as an evil act But in those days it was extremely secret and considered very very perverse and bizarre And that's how the people who needed to do it these four people thought of themselves including someone like Hoover um And yeah, but I think Hoover was was pretty dark in other ways too. It's not just a guy who liked So he he likes so many Of those victims became a perpetrator, right? I mean it's Alex. It's ego ego ego ego You have to work hard To understand that you are not your ego What you're talking about is your spiritual journey in your spiritual practice And I think we should be explicit about that because it's it's ego in the sense that ego is getting in the way of your true divine Love-filled spirit, but I know you you know that hit. Let me let me direct you to a couple of questions that I think Are from your book a new world Which again is phenomenal. It's seminal It's 150 pages you can get more in 150 pages here to Kind of turn your world upside down again, you know, even if it's already turned upside down in a good way But one of the things that people you've returned to this already in our conversation You've touched on this two or three times But it's a question that I know pops up. It did for me Whenever I hear you talk and whenever I hear your journey from being You know, not just horrified but uh completely Outraged at the at the visitors Mad at the visitors scared as hell at the visitors to kind of a different kind of evolving relationship with the visitors But what is at the center of this is the quote from a new world is When a shark devours an innocent swimmer, it is terrible, but it isn't evil It's just nature being nature The same thing holds true when a person is attacked in the night Their spine extracted and their energetic body captured It's just nature being nature Yeah, that that particular passage is about something that I'm fairly sure happened and happens It is a where and it's related to the cattle mutilations where the When when the visitors some will sometimes take me out of my body and when they do that I can feel a shock going down my spine as the Places between That hold this the electric the electromagnetic body if you will or the second body To the first body are opened and then I come right out And I'm still conscious I'm well able to function in the world I can be seen often by people. I've interacted with people I was seen by linda how much to her annoyance one time I've been seen and interacted with other people as well So it's it's quite real But what is this and now there are predatory levels of this whole thing. There's a whole world outside of the physical world a bigger world Filled with entities and I think some of those entities are just like sharks I mean, they're like they're like almost almost not not they're Let's call them brilliant animals And they will they will attack people. They are predators They attack cattle then they occasionally attack human beings I think that when they're they do attack human beings They are stopped I I think that there's a case There the the cases I mentioned in a new world. I think happened. I think they happened in brooklyn and I and I can't say much much about them because they're so They're so buried But I don't think they happen all that often. I think they happen from time to time When people are vulnerable, but a particularly type of people these were all people Who had kind of No lives in other words they had they were street people They didn't have any associations any any friends or anything like that and they they were They were basically they were taken There were spines were damaged in this way That would have as soon as you damage the spine that way That second body is going to come right out And if somebody is there who knows how to capture it They will or they can and they use it as a form of energy They eat it apparently What about the sexual assault that is reported over and over again? I experienced it. I know you did. I I totally I totally understand that you did and there's so there's also Um, it's might be easier to even talk about other cases other than your own but you're welcome to talk about your case But I know loads of cases. I've got hundreds of them in my files What do you make of that particularly? It just starts looking as a as below so above. I mean, uh Publicly in in this extended realm publicly Sexually assaulting someone dominating someone Uh shifting all that kind of stuff. It is deception Right after the communion experience. I wrote a short story called pain Which is about sexual domination because I was Felt I never felt anything like sexual domination being dominated sexually before in my life until that night And that's exactly how it felt I mean they they raped me they induced an erection with a an electro with a Something like a like it's called an electro stimulator um They they extracted semen from me Uh, you talk about and I was totally and completely helpless the whole time It was sexual domination. There's no question about that's what it was But I I came to a point Where I had to make a choice I knew they were This point that they were real and they were either permanently part of the physical world and very clever at concealing themselves Or they were something else that would project themselves into the physical world I still can't tell you which exactly is the case although. I think that it's probably a mix of There's probably a spectrum of of of this of some kind But I had to make a choice either I was going to try to see what they were all about and to see if they would engage with me on some More acceptable level Or not and that's why I started walking out in the woods in the middle of the night Knowing what had happened to me at that point I knew very well what they had done and I did not know whether or not I would ever come back when I went out there Because I thought they were incredibly dangerous and I still do I don't think that there it's all sweetness and light and you know, you have these people out there who who are Basically kind of blaming us because we're scared than there You know, you have you have a lot of people in the ufo community who do ce5s and so forth Who are saying that they're all sweetness and light, but these are also people who had have Very little empathy for other human beings in my opinion because it's not all sweetness and light. It's a hard experience And making it I've tried my best to make it something of value for me But boy, I'm telling you right now I'm not I don't trust the visitors I trust my innate goodness as a human being that I do trust But I do not trust them and I do not trust their various attempts to Make themselves seem more angelic to me I think that they got caught In a dark vortex a long time ago some of them did and they are trapped in it And I'm not there. I am not trapped in it and I am also not involved. I do not have stock home syndrome at all I've I've worried about that a lot because I don't want to be an apologist for monsters and Frankly You can you can make a choice you can take What they have to dish out and make it your own and make it part of your growth and your Your exploration of your own ethical journey Or you can fall into a trap Which is you can decide that they're really angels Or you can decide that there are demons and I don't want a goddamn thing to do with them. You can do those things I chose the other path the middle path You know, there's so many profound points to that that we're Not going to be able to get into but profound profound the vortex of evil that they are Found themselves in and are ultimately Trying to get out of and I would tie that back to your fly paper comment that We may be entering in that same vortex and we'll find ourselves trying to find our way out of it which maybe we are Maybe we're not even to the point where we realize we do need to find our way out of it the question I ask because I've interviewed somebody near-death experience researchers and I found that That body of science which it is at this point with over 200 peer-reviewed papers So Meaningful to not only me if somebody who's never never had a near-death experience I know your wife did I know it was key to her Spiritual journey and maybe we could talk about that But the let one of the lessons we get from the near-death experience is that it is about this journey to and through the light and that What I find profound profound about that is the idea that yes, you will be judged You will be judged for every action every thought every deed But not by someone else but by yourself by your soul By that voice that has always been with us From the time we're a little kid where we know What's right and what's wrong so in the book a new world You have a grand just an opening here that we You will you will not close which you shouldn't close because we don't have any completely closure on it But here's the quote what we would appear to be looking at then In both the close encounter and the near-death experiences Is a massive increase In initiation So do you want to speak about a near-death experience its connection or anything else there? Well, I would like to first speak about initiation and what it is Initiation Is not fun Now all the way back to the beginning of initiatory activities in this world a real initiation Involves a real challenge of death When jesus says He talks about In various ways of dying to this world and then you will never taste of death again What he's talking about is an initiatory experience that causes you to face and live through death and come out on the other side knowing that You that there is more to this to this experience than the physical world And that's exactly what happened to an She went she had a massive stroke She was I was told by the doctors on the night they brought her in that she would not last until the morning But they saved her They did it. It wasn't a miracle. It was medical skill And they brought her all the way back from The other side of death to this life again And she had a near-death experience in the in the in in this process it wasn't a classic near-death experience Going into the light of seeing the light etc. And so forth. It was much more down to earth and an like she ended up in a bus station which Which where she was seeing saw people all sitting on benches with big parcels in their hands And she didn't have anything in her hands and she was told she could either go on Or come back if she wished and she decided to come back And after that she was no longer afraid of death in any way When it came time for her to Go her body was collapsing. I mean her brain was she was having stroke after stroke because of cancer The result of they're being unable to take a tumor entirely out of her brain And the weight of the tumor was destroying her brain and she had lost lost the entire right side of her body left side. Yeah, yeah left side of her body and She said to me one day In july of 2015 wittly. It's time. I'm going And I said I was just heartbroken of course because I wanted and with me physically In any form she happened to be sick or healthy But I could well understand she couldn't even get up out of bed She had to be helped to do everything and that would be the case until something ghastly happened like she became locked in or Her lungs stopped working and she died of suffocation. And so I called hospice And they came and they talked to Ann and at that point I was I had to be out of the picture legally We didn't have you you didn't have you had to You had to if you're going to intentionally die in those days You had to stop eating you had to refuse food and water because the supreme court had decided if you did that then You had the right to you can know you couldn't be stopped And so that's what she did And she only lasted a few days and those were the hardest and most extraordinary days of my life She came back she died at 7 15 She began reconnecting with me through friends at 9 30 that night She didn't come directly to me because she knew I was too hardheaded. I would never believed it But now I have learned How to share this body with her She can use it. This is why symbolically I wear both rings Because as far as I'm concerned, we're still married. We're just down to this one bottle Anyway, it's all in The book I wrote with Ann after she died the afterlife revolution And you know, there's such wisdom she's had given me such wisdom in in her afterlife Among the things that she said that are great are The human species is too young to have beliefs, but we need are good questions And but the other one that I think is it has It's it's a life aim That is not reachable probably in life, but is a wonderful aim to have It is that enlightenment is what happens when there is nothing left of us but love You start down that path And immediately the dark side is having trouble with you Hopefully you got me choked up Um Me too Tell us tell us what's going on with uh with you What else is going on this new book again people are going to want to check out a new world And of course the website what's going on there? And what's next what's next for you? I am writing a book about jesus It is not like other books about jesus Are you is the historical aspect of jesus important to you or Are you okay with those who understand christ consciousness, but are a little bit less Sold on the historical aspects the way it's been told to us. What's your opinion? There are two histories of jesus. There are three histories of jesus One is the secular history of jesus which you can Get in a book like Zealot by riza aslan Which is essentially that he was a revolutionary There was no there were no real miracles. There was no resurrection all that is Just hyperbole Or there is the Traditional christian jesus he was a god come to earth There's another jesus That is unremarch But more important Three things have happened that caused that other jesus to re-emerge As he said if you do not awaken i will return as a thief in the night One is the shroud of turing the moment the first photograph was taken of it in 1898 suddenly We had a picture of him The second is the gospel of thomas and the third is the gospel of mary those three things taken together add up to a new vision of jesus the Shroud of turing was debunked in 1988 As being a medieval forgery This is false. It is not a medieval forgery and there is plenty of science that has been done since then That shows that it is indeed an extremely strange object. It's the strangest thing in the world But it doesn't mean that jesus was a god It means that we Don't know what we are just as you said at the beginning. This is the central aim of human life Finding out who we are and my new book about jesus is about just that It's about using the example jesus said To find out who we are and as far as the idea that he didn't actually exist at all Well, that's a very interesting question that I address in the book extensively I think there was a historical jesus and I think that that The story the real story of the historical jesus is also a story About a group of initiates who worked with him Who you can find if you do a lot of detective work and careful reading of the gospels You can find their presence. They're like a shadow in the gospels. They don't really emerge, but I I shined a light on them in my book. I hope Um, when will that be out? That's going to really be interesting, you know, because let me just Interject her a little bit what I always think is interesting about the jesus thing And it's mainly because of my work my interest In near-death experience science and I always throw science in there because there's still a lot of people who are Don't understand that Just because we don't understand something completely just because we don't understand consciousness just because we don't understand What an experienced in that? bus station Doesn't mean that it isn't It isn't what we would term real, you know But I've interviewed so many people that have had experiences with christ consciousness and they have a knowing and I always want to Say that I totally accept that on a very very real level That not it's not just what they believed that there is definitely a reality to that But I love the way that and I don't want to put words in your mouth But what I hear you saying is you remain open to That not paralleling A historical figure in the way that in particular christianity has stitched that story together and that there may be Discoveries that we need to make to understand the connection between that christ consciousness that we are a co-creator of and And the historical thing there so any any thoughts on that before we leave that and do tell us when that book Will be out well, uh, I'm shooting for january the 15th I uh That right now is the pub date But it might it might go a little longer. I'm not sure I'm still Fighting with myself about the title and That's always hard because it has to have the right title The title has to tell the story of the book in two or three words Um, and I I've always been good at titles but I always feel That I'm terribly bad at titles when I'm working on one. So maybe a good title will come soon And in which case we'll stay on track uh Now the the question of What initiation is Is central To an understanding Not only of our own experience now because after all As annie had a near-death experience and was brought back by doctors This is now commonplace. This happens all the time uh This had to be induced Say in the mysteries in ancient times you really did have to be put into position where you were dying And if you lived then you had been initiated and if you died then that turned out to have been a mistake Uh, there was one tribe and I forget which one Where someone wanting to gain medicine medicine would jump off a cliff And if they Lived they had medicine and if they didn't well they they made a mistake um Initiation is about getting past death And it used to be very rare because you know, how many people are going to actually Actually do that Now it's common Because medical science has made it common. This is an initiatory culture now because we bring so many people back from the death from death Most of them don't actually remember anything But some do and those are initiates who do who do remember and witley you were drawing some parallels earlier in the book And I'd like you to kind of just string that out as our time is running out here Between that and the increased contact with the visitors because both are initiatory Obviously initiatory Is there you know correlation causation kind of thing going on there or do they just happen or are we miss reading? that Well, no, I don't think so. There's a really very much of a correlation The visitor experience is initiatory in the sense that it overturns your life And you have a choice either you're going to sit there and say well god damn them Or you're going to go for it and try to figure out what the hell happened and how you can make something out of it for yourself Or you're just going to Ignore it and the memory will fade and fade into a state of Sort of ptsd and and there's a I think the visitor experience is very extensive And that there was a huge subliminal level of ptsd in our in our world and always has been And is one of the reasons our history is so violent You know, they're a they're a big presence It's not like a bunch of little aliens running around and Trying to see what we're up to This is part of the Of the of the blood of life. It's that deep And it emerges from time to time In the into physical entity that happened in the distant past And you that's why you see these Images of entities that look something like the grays from from different periods and you have Evidence in in the the In the in the literature of the past that there were contacts of various kinds I mean, obviously is Ziegels wheel and so forth And it's happening again It's happening now It's a it's a it's a it's a re Another initiation. I think we're going into a period of tremendous upheaval and that The soul The greater soul that we are all part of is preparing for it And that's why we see these things that we do. That's why there is a huge wave of initiation across the whole planet on so many different levels uh, and why Those of us who know anything at all about what's going on have got to make a personal choice You have to choose the good You know in the gospel of mary the word god isn't mentioned. God is called the good You have to choose the good Well, what an awesome way maybe to end it right there Folks, it's been or I should say witley Just terrific. Thank you again so much. Our guest, of course, has been witley striber You're gonna want to check out his new book A new world you're gonna want it the guy's written over for you books So there's a lot to choose from but this last one Important relevant right now and his website Excellent keeps walking rocking along dreamland Excellent as well It's been just awesome sharing this time with you Thank you. Thank you so much Well, thank you, Alex. It's been a pleasure and I'm glad that we finally got together Thanks again to witley striber for joining me today on skeptico The one question I tee up is the question I kind of teed up at the beginning and that's What do you make of the fly paper analogy? What do you make of our need to know our ego stroking our ego run wild feeling of knowing Of being an intelligence agent of being a magician Of being someone who knows more Boy, I get it. I totally get it. But I wonder if it is as witley says black magic If it is fly paper That sticks to us and keeps us in the vortex of evil What do you think? Let me know No one's coming over to the forum. I don't know. I don't know what's up But uh, let me know by whatever means Necessary got some good shows coming up stick around until next time take care. Bye for now