 Hello and welcome to another edition of Into the Issues. I'm Steve Pappas. I will be your host I'm honored today to have as my guest the Bishop of the Catholic Diocese of Vermont Actually of Burlington, I guess is technically the term. Well, it's the whole state. It's the whole state Christopher Coyne. Thank you for being here. You're welcome. Thanks for having me, Steve You are celebrating an anniversary right now of five years of Coming to Vermont essentially and serving in Vermont and I wanted to talk to you first about What that experience, what this experience has meant to you and what do you see as your accomplishments in these five years? Well, I grew up. I've grown up in New England grew up just outside of Boston was a priest for Boston for 25 years and my family Had summer cottages in Maine and we used to ski in Vermont So, you know, I'm very familiar with the terrain and the people although I will say that, you know Vermonters are a sui generis in terms of knowing them. The Vermonters are very different than the rest of New England So it's it's not it's it's not as if you can just kind of move from one from Boston and fit in right away in Vermont They'll know that they know you were flat lander You know, and I was pleased when I was asked to come back here and to be the Bishop of the Burlington all of Vermont. I was excited about it You know, I knew I know it's challenging for anybody who has a revealed religion and Institutional religion like Catholicism or any of the other ones because Vermont is one of the least religious states in the country and For all different kinds of reasons. So but there's also a very strong Catholic community here and and when I came Much of what was that the church was struggling with in terms of lawsuits and litigation and finances and all that had kind of been resolved and so I inherited a fairly Healthy diocese that was looking to move forward away from just kind of maintenance into into its mission Which is to serve the poor and to preach the gospel. So that's where we've been, you know, and it's been it's been wonderful. It's The state is is so different depending upon what I mean I talked about how New England is different from state to state Depending on where you're in Vermont. It's different from place to place, too Yeah, I mean that's you have the strongholds the the Rutland's for example, which is a completely different community as far as I mean It's very entrenched in that community still Oh, it's got its own personality the personality of Rutland is very different than the personality of Chittenden County and it's very in the in the personality of Rutland is very different than the personality of Barry I mean people talk about all those people from Barry or those people from Rutland or those people from Burlington And I always thought that those what are they talking about and then when you meet the folks and you okay Yeah, there's there's even those little differences in character and that I and it's and not not necessarily negative but just different ways of Seeing and perceiving things So talk a little bit about what what is the Bishop we all we all kind of hear it We hear the terms and we understand that there's a higher a hierarchy, but What does the Bishop do Well Basically, I'm like the pastor for the Catholic community in Vermont. So I was missioned here by the Pope Pope Francis sent me here and he asked me to Be the the pastor for the Catholics and to work with because I can't be everywhere I want to work with the priests and the parishes and the people and so my primary role is to is to serve the community to maintain Catholic mission The great works that we do to help the poor and the needy and the marginalized but also to Maintain our churches to preach the gospel and the Catholic faith to Be people who are involved in serving the common good and not separate from the common good, but but part of it To be good citizens all those things so as a Bishop my my role is to Is to be the pastor in other words be out there listen to people Try and do everything I can to support the good works and the works of the priests there And also to try and teach the faith. I mean when bishops in the Catholic Church We're ordained which means we're we're ordered to To the church's tradition We're not when I when I was made a bishop back over ten years ago now The oath of the obedience that I took was like two pages long and it's basically You know you will do everything that you can to maintain the tradition and teachings of the church in all matters of faith the morals in all times in all places and to In complete fidelity and obedience heart soul mind, so we're not in a way I'm not I'm more of a when it comes to those things. I'm more of a curator or a I'm not a I'm not a creative theologian in other words I'm not called to be someone who kind of tries to move the line on these things So as such as more than someone who tries to explain why the church believes what it believes to do so in a way That's clear, but also, you know To be open to the possibility of of change as necessary um Which raises an interesting point because it feels like Catholicism is is in many ways very strict in in what it's adhering to and kind of how it expects It's It's following to also, you know live a certain way and be a certain way and And yet It is adapting in a way that in a lot of ways I think is seen as positive and you've embraced it for example the the climate accepting climate change and And having the Pope Come out with such powerful statement and an articulate statement that that is aligned with the times And yet there are other things about the church that are challenging they have to be challenging for you to be able to accept and and as you say explain to Everyone who's following that well, this is the way the church believes it should be How do you how do you personally find yourself? Serving kind of straddling those two worlds of the hard line of the church And then kind of the needs and the changing that needs to take place in a modern world Sure, I think I always say to people that I'm not a politician. I'm a pastor and I try and avoid politics as much as possible But even when I feel even when I put out what I think is a neutral statement or a teaching I get complaints from both ends I'll get complaints from the liberal side saying You're you're feeding you're you're playing to the your conservative base And I'll get complaints from the conservative side saying you're playing playing to the liberal base So I think the message of Jesus Christ that's found in the church is one that challenges All of us right across the spectrum of our life regardless of where our political Stance may lie and so that when you when you stand up in front of when you stand up and you say this is what the church believes it's it ends up kind of Embracing and welcoming a lot of people, but it also ends up offending many crosses because it's it's it's a message That challenges it's not easy to be a Roman Catholic in the fullness of the faith. It's a very It's it's it's not It's not a life It's a life that's very separate from and different from the cultures in which we find ourselves in the first world But also Roman Catholicism is a worldwide faith. And so when you start talking about The teaching of the church in the Catholic Church It's not just the teaching here of the church in the state of Ramona or in the United States or in Canada It's in the largest places. It's the places in which most Catholics live today, which is in South America, Asia and Africa they fire by those Catholics and those continents of Numbers by far in the first world and they tend to be very traditional and You know when you talk about things like empowerment of women in in the church and trying to You know open the door to perhaps like an ordained women deaconate, which is a you know It's a service below Not below, but it's different from the priesthood, but it's a service that's there, but it's never been It's never been really Lifted up as a possibility of the church until recently You know we in the first world can hear it and say this sounds reasonable Let's continue and explore it But then you'll get a lot of blowback from the more traditional societies in Africa and Asia and they'll say We're not interested in this because We believe in the male hierarchical life, you know So it's it's that's hard to deal with I I think You know I I always just say Can I say something this is a line from one of Saint Paul's letters? He says only say only the things that men and women need to hear things that are really gonna lift them up And so that's where I start take the high road try and lift people up and while being Committed to the church's teaching. I always say how can I help this teaching? Right now with this particular person sitting right in front of me to to find a path that is one that doesn't close a door But continues to leave a door open Do you find that? That Church is a community. I mean that's why a lot of people really embrace it not just because of faith But because there's a routine to it. There's a camaraderie to it There's a brotherhood and sisterhood to it and and that has eroded a lot over time Whether it's you can blame it on devices you can blame it on different things But we're seeing we're seeing it in social clubs. We're seeing it in churches. We're seeing it Just in general that we're not Interacting as much face-to-face and faith in faith I guess and that has affected the church I mean you all all denominations seem to be struggling with this loss of Yeah, and it's not just like he's that's a real important point. It's not just the Catholic Church It's any organized religion Catholicism the other Christian church is a Episcopalianism Methodism Judaism To Mormons is starting to experience it those Revealed religions are seeing a lot loss of membership That's accelerating and it's and it's it's like how do you stem the tide? But you raised the point at the very beginning about other social clubs It was that book that came out about 20 years ago called bowling alone and has written by a sociologist And he started talking about the fact that even 20 years ago Garden clubs bowling was bowling links. This was the example that he used Men's clubs like Elks clubs nights at Columbus Lions clubs We're seeing real declines in the number of people who are actually joining these places But what's interesting he in the point of later on when they come back to just a few years ago They came back to the premise of bowling alone about the bowling league and the loss of membership and all that Though the decline of the bowling league is is most is gone most leagues are gone The number of people who actually bowling is up, but they're not joining leagues and Though the reason why they'll say is they need the freedom because their life is so Unplanned and there's so many demands upon them. They don't want to commit themselves to An organization that requires them to be at different places at different times regularly and That require has rules and regs and all these other things they'd rather just go to the to the bowling alley and bowl And it's the same when people say I'm spiritual, but I'm not religious. They're basically saying I'd rather I want to go to the bowling alley, but not ball I want to pray, but I don't want to join the church because I don't need that organization I don't see it as something that I can fit into my life It's that's especially true with the Millennials because the Millennials Right now though and even the post Millennials, which we're getting into By the time they in their mid 40s on average, they've moved 19 times So if you've got a very mobile group of young people How do you how do you get them to join a church or parish when they're not going to be there very long now? They the movement can be like one apartment within a city But oftentimes it's to another city. It's another state another country You know, I think it's a those the kind of challenges we face today as an organized religion is how do you continue to connect with people? who are so mobile and Culturally are not can I not don't get the idea of joining How does that translate into? Problems for the church or challenges for the church You can't rely any church like ours. You can't rely on on a Stationary number of people who are going to be there every weekend and support the church every weekend Both with their with their time and their talents, but also with their finances. So There are many people out there who would say I consider myself Roman Catholic, but they don't belong to a church or parish or what's out there? So I think one of the ways we have to begin to address this is to think of creative ways of Or look back at our past. So for example within the Christian tradition before you know predates Protestantism and Catholicism breakup There were things called confraternities which were Loose gatherings of cat of Christians That were not dependent necessarily on geography So if you were if you belong to the confraternity of St. Nicholas And that was what you you know You kind of committed yourself to and you prayed to and that was what your your spiritual life went if you traveled Or if you went from place to place you could plug yourself into the confraternity of St. Nicholas. That's there And you start thinking about things like in the Catholic faith for young people you say maybe we could have a confraternity where You know a particular saint we maybe have to a particular saint and every Diocese would have a confraternity. So when a young person or young people move to a new place They know that they can always go on Sunday night at seven o'clock to the confraternity of St. Peter in this place. The confraternity would always have a regular It's always Sunday night. It's always seven o'clock. There's always fellowship. There's always a mass You know, they plug themselves into that. So it's it's those kinds of things those creative ways of rethinking these things That could be helpful if you go back to the the bowling league Example and you were saying that while the leagues tend to have of waned that the participation as up It's up because bowling's fun, right? I mean, that's just something that people want to go out and do for recreation Is there is what you're talking about kind of steps toward getting away from the structure of being active in religion and Allowing spirituality to have a different definition than going to church I think it's a whole change in the way we understand religion or Catholicism Catholicism is a way of life When I as a Roman Catholic, I have embraced a particular way of being in the world Based upon faith in God faith in Jesus and the Holy Spirit And that's the way and I've embraced that and the things like going to mass or Sunday celebrations or My prayer or whatever it may be our manifestations of that being they they support They're part of who I am but the most important thing is to recognize first and foremost that I have been I'm a disciple You know when someone becomes wants to become a Buddhist They have to embrace the teaching of Buddha and that becomes the way in which they live in this world They're a Buddhist and they live that way and some of the some of the the requirements of Buddhism are just as strict or if not more strict than Catholic faith, right but people embrace that Too often it's Catholicism has been for us a cultural Catholicism Where it's it's it's this putting on of certain practices Without the understanding of it being a way of being in the world And so I think if you start with encouraging people to recognize that Being Catholic first and foremost means that you have embraced the teaching and a discipleship about how you're going to live in the world and and live it out and then Then out of that you begin to participate when you're in it when you're traveling or where you're elsewhere in the common life of that community For to offer prayer and worship, but also to be sustained and nourished in in your in your discipleship I think that that makes that'll make a big difference and that's the one thing we're trying to we're talking to people more and more about is becoming disciples first and Catholic second and And I think that that is challenging for a lot of people when when you talk to young people About why they left the church Most of them will say I don't need it. It's intolerant. That's the other thing that you'll hear that The views of the church are very intolerant or I don't need someone telling me how to live my life I don't need rules and regulations. I don't want rules and regulations. I'm a good person I don't want to kill tripple. It's those are the things that are kind of right there and that's when you can see right there That's they've chosen a different way of being in the world than what the church is calling it Is the church intolerant? It's intolerance of certain behaviors But I always make an effort to talk about what we're for I Don't talk about what we're against You know and we tend to be defined by by certain and I'm neurologic issues in society that are the you know the gender wars the political correct Issues that are all out there that we are often defined by but people say, you know You know, they'll say well you say I'm not a good Catholic because I'm in the same-sex marriage So you're saying I'm not a good Catholic and I can't be in the church and I always say well That's you know, that's only one small part of who you are, you know, and so you know I'm not going to define you by that. I would actually challenge you to ask questions like how we how do you treat your brother and sister? How do you treat the marginalized? How do you how do you express your your if you say I'm just even though This is my relationship. This is who I am How do you fall into in terms of the rest of what the church is teaching on this matter to me? The the the neurologic issues of of gender and sexuality and all that They're there and they're part of what we our discussion is but I don't usually preach about them or anything from the pope But I'm more worried. I'm more concerned about where's your love of neighbor? Where's your love of God? Where's your where's your charity? Where's your mercy? Where's your? Are you someone who's involved in social justice social action all these other things? You know You know as I remember talk I remember the Cardinal Malley down in Boston one time when people said, you know Why is the church so fixated on sexuality and he said to the media he said I'm not fixated on the other ones that were always Asking the questions. I'm not up here preaching about it talking about it all the time And so I hope to try and convince people to to define us less of them But then those things that are challenges to discipleship and more by things that that are that are you know That are worthy of the church. I mean the Catholic Church in Vermont Is supply so many good things and so much to so much good work that people when you add it all up It's we're one of the largest providers of social services private surprises social services in the state by far You were talking a little bit off the air about Kind of what some of that work is and I'd like you to talk a little bit about About what you what the church has done and in the services it provides in that means because it's a pretty it's impressive Yeah, when I was when I got here in five years ago one of the things I said to people and working with them is to say I don't want to create a Catholic ghetto of social services So if in your local area, there's already a food bag There's no need for us to have a Catholic food bag Let's just support that food bank as Catholics and be present to that community and You know be there as Catholics and talk about our faith and and be witnesses to our faith within that community so we we try and support like the Burlington food pantry for example in Toronto and In Chittenden County, you know, we don't have a Catholic Shelter for families instead we we can we've connected with and committed to cuts A local shelter community So where there's already good things being done within the common good We're gonna we plug ourselves into that and support it Go into Salvation Army feeding feeding meals Things like that. So one of one thing that we do though do though where there that is not Really carried out by any other agency except for this group called acorn in Chittenden County is we provide emergency help to underemployed families so We have a we are through Vermont Catholic Charities. We have Significant amount of money that's available each month to families that are you know mothers working or the both parents are working they're just getting by and there's a catastrophic illness and they have a big bill or The engine on the money on the minivan went or they have to move but they don't have enough money to pay for the deposit on the apartment or They've got this huge oil bill that they can't pay we We help them with that. So it's there's a that's a niche right there for us that we do and we continue That we and it's not just Chittenden County. It's it's anywhere within the state We try and help anybody here regardless of They don't have to be Catholic. They just they just need help we help In addition, we every one of our parishes has some kind of an outreach whether it's to a food shelter or They or they might even have their own food pantry some places do There's a big one down in Brattleboro St. Michael's parish has a huge one that serves meals at hot meals every day There and it's very big. There's a number a couple of other ones like that around the state but But we also, you know, we provide all those social services So it's it's a large amount of work that we do, but we also have something called the DeGosbian Fund It's named after the first Catholic Bishop of Vermont, Louis DeGosbrym and We distribute grants to worthy organizations to organizations that that make an application all throughout the state And they're not Catholic organizations Obviously they have to be organizations that don't do anything that's contrary to our teaching But we all across the state we give out grants over the course of each year And we do enough for ten years and we've given out over half a million dollars in grants through the Louis DeGosbrym grant through collection and it goes to food banks and it goes to shelters for Families and provides daycare for for elders citizens and Transportation for people who are out in rural parts of the state that don't have cars But still need to get to doctors and things like that. So those are the kinds of things that we do And if I mean if there's the list is pretty significant in terms of the groups that we heard so help excuse me So I I think that Catholics We live our faith in terms of we do a lot of good work with missions How many parishes are there for statewide 72 and 114 churches because some parishes have more than one or two churches Going back to that sense of community and in the people who say that they want to so you talked about the young people saying they want to Leave the church. Why do young people say they want to go to the church? They want some people because a lot of them have become disciples They've really embraced the teaching of the church. They want to to live it out They first get attracted a lot of times by social ministry social missions things that we do They get involved with us in the kind of outreach that we do to the community or The trips the support of places in Haiti and other countries that will do There that that Those kind of social mission social works that the church does is kind of gets them in the door And then they begin to see people praying and talking about their faith and the next thing You know, they're very committed to it And then once they become part they become more and more active in the church They find a church where they feel at home and they really become very enthralled with the mystery of the Catholic Church's liturgies, which if done well can are very beautiful and and a very mystical and different in a way that the culture is different and so They're attracted by that. They're attracted by the differentness of Catholicism and its religion There's a segment who are attracted to the old way in which we used to have our liturgy Which was in Latin and all that and we have a small community of those folks in Vermont and there's a large number of young people who go to those they're very enthralled by the old practice and and they they they're very committed to it and They try and live their life accordingly too from it. So The ones that are staying they're staying because they become disciples it's not just they're not cultural Catholics and Conversely you have to be running up against a lot of Individuals of all ages who are just mad at the Catholic Church right now. Yeah Yeah, and and rightly so and the Catholic Church has allowed certain behavior to go on for Had a lot. Yeah. Yeah and Vermont Vermont was not immune to it your approach to Addressing that was very unusual. It would it impressed many drew a lot of criticism But you asked for an independent review of the diocese vials And I think there were a lot of people in the media and otherwise who Questioned whether it was really independent or not, but for all intents and purposes. I know Mike Donahue He's not gonna let anything kind of stray and you have said that you were satisfied with the findings of That that group of individuals who came in I can't remember how many there were totals And that they had done their review and you were not looking nobody was looking for The specifics to you know to pull all the dirt out of it. All it was was a confirmation that you wanted to identify The breadth and depth depth of the problem and you're satisfied with those results, right? I think When I asked the seven lay men and women six of whom were Catholic one of whom was not He was a Quaker or is a Quaker to to do this I didn't realize the amount of work that was involved with them and I they didn't either But the amount of work that they put in and hours that they put in to produce the finding in the report was I couldn't Just can't say thank you to them enough But I had promised them I met with them once at the beginning and once at the end and I promised them full cooperation And so they had full access to all of the priest files not just the ones that we had identified as Having allegations of abuse of a minor in them But if they were reading along and they saw our reference to a priest that they didn't have they'd say can we see Father Jones's file. So when they needed to see other files, they saw them They were also agreed to strict confidentiality and privacy of those priests who may have Who they might have looked at but they didn't they said there was just nothing there So they're not going they weren't going to say well, we did look at Father Jones's file, but there's nothing there And then at the end I told them that I would once they produced their report. I would produce it I would promulgate it produce it as they wrote it now. I wasn't going to edit it, which I did The same time the State Attorney General's office is going through the same files so they have all the same things that we that they had and Strictly speaking it would do me no good to To try and cover up anything or hide anything knowing that the State Attorney General has it and they're going to be diligent in this and so I Didn't want to produce I didn't want them But or anybody to produce a report that was not going to be overturned or or seem to be kind of less than complete I Think it has accomplished what there was two things one was one sad There were families that were hurt and upset because they're their beloved brother or uncle's name was Was sent the man's dead Priestess dead, but it was his name was made public because there were allegations that were found to be credible and Substantial and they said you know this guy my our uncle has no way to we know he didn't do it. He talked about this allegation And he can't defend himself and now his name's out there and it's being smeared and slandered and why'd you do that and The problem the issue is well and not this case in particular, but in other cases we had names made public that had not been made public before and This is the second thing is that it did accomplish is that we've had people come and say I Was also abused by Father Smith But his name I never saw his name So I was always afraid to come forward because I was the only one I didn't think anybody would believe me now I know that I was not alone and So we've had we've been able to talk to them have conversations with them Make restitution with them privately as we can so the idea of putting out the list was not just to To air out all of the sins of the past because these things are all 20 25 years ago And thank God we've not had any allegation of abuse of a minor in in 20 25 years 25 years Is again just to say just exactly what we did To say some of these folks, you know that have been out there quietly hurting That you in fact weren't alone in that we we do believe you you know were you You knew you were gonna take some heat for taking that approach though I mean, I can't imagine that that there were that everybody in the Catholic Church said Bishop Coines got this one, you know, the transparency is gonna be good for it. Good for I know I've been just local Locally, you know my brother bishops there are guys who just completely disagree with me they they think they they believe that I threw the precinct of the bus especially the ones that are dead and I I Again, but I always say there's nothing it's scripture. There's nothing hidden that will not be revealed, you know And so the only way we're gonna get beyond this is to be completely Transparent about what happened and honest about what would happen and put it out there Even though it's hurtful for for me and everyone else who's part of our church It hurts a lot to see the what was allowed to happen and how many families and children were abused and all that and the kind of Wound on the body but You know when you go back and you start talking to these old guys Or even the older bishops back when I when this all started back in 2002 2003 They would say we were trying to protect the church, you know when we didn't when we cover this up We were trying to protect the church The church but they forgot those families and those children. They're the church, too I mean what you were saying is the church to find only as the clergy forgetting all the rest of the church and And I think that that's a very important reality that we've kind of just said that just doesn't have carry any water You can't we will not say that we can't say that won't say that well And that's where I think 90% of your blowback comes from is that there's can't have that can't have it be protecting the clergy when You know we're only one part we're only one part of the church exactly and you know And when the church gets sued For these things they're not soon me my personal property as Chris going isn't isn't gonna go anywhere It's everything every dollar and every good generous gift that was made by people That's what the money's coming from and so they're the ones that are being in a way are If you want to talk about on justice, they're the ones that are paying for the sins of clergy who oftentimes We're abusing them in their families. So it's just it's it's it's an awful situation to be in right now when you started out you You couldn't have known as a young man that The profession that you were going to take upon Was going to turn into this could you No, but I I grew up in a huge Catholic parish priests are always around our house at seven seven seven six brothers and sisters seven of us We were very active in the church and we were always we had priests and none of us knock on wood wherever abused There was one guy that my brothers my older brothers just to just stay away from me is creepy You know they used to call him father touch and feel so we kind of knew that these guys were out there and But we we avoided them because you know, they just was lucky When I was in seminary Back in 80 to 86 There was we got a lot of This is just when the stuff is starting to burble to the top and we had a lot of Rectors conferences and others on boundaries and they used to tell us to stay away from From from children, you know, you're not to be alone with children You if you see a priest who's with children a lot you have to let us know this is like 1986 This is way before the Boston Globe story in 2002 so there was already this kind of Real awareness within the local within the church community is guys who are being trained that we had to be Catching these things and being vigilant about it Then when the story broke in 2002, and I was teaching I was a seminary professor at that time And I was teaching guys to be seminary to be priests You know it was There was hard The scope of it. We didn't know especially in Boston. We didn't know nobody was aware of the scope of it But as it started to play out more and more it kept the catastrophic nature of What had happened would have been covered up and how many people had been abused was Was just numbing And I was very much involved in all kinds of different levels on on dealing with this in Boston The thing the biggest Takeaway from me in terms of like just sheer numbers is the 11 worst Priests perpetrators in Boston were responsible for 90% of the victims and And if we had ever we and we knew and these guys had records if we had ever just taken them out when we should have I'm thinking how many less how many How many fewer children would have been hurt It's mind-boggling when you look at the same as the true and Vermont Look the two or three worst perpetrators were responsible for the vast majority of cases they were these guys who were who were pedophiles are were serial abusers and And and they they just had hundreds of victims, you know victims close to a hundred or over a hundred At any point did you Feel that this was a test of your faith and that you need to walk away No because And even doubt even today I Feel like I have to make reparation for it and if I walk away. I'm abandoning The ownership of what happened. I'm abandoning The necessity of being honest and transparent and and making amends. I'm abandoning the people who were hurt I mean like I said the people in the pews didn't do it They had these guys assigned to them and then these guys abused their children. So they had no call They had to callable who could go there and who not so if I walk away. I'm walking away from them You know It's we're in the caught we're in the bishops chain and be in the bishop if the holy father tomorrow Don't call them up. Hope call me up tomorrow and said I want your resignation. I'd say oh, thank you Can I go back to being a parish priest again? But but that's not what I'm called to do and so I just do the best I can right now Do you feel that there should be criminal charges brought? I Wish there could have been I wish I wish I really wish that There's not a lot of them alive the guys who did it but even what when it was back then I really wish yeah That we could have that the statute of limitations could have been removed for criminal Which it can't be But Yeah, I think I think these guys should have gone to jail. I really like anybody else They should have gone to jail. Do you feel like the church is doing enough now? To protect. Oh, yeah. No, I think I think We've learned I'm we've one of the we've excuse me. We've learned our lesson You know one like I said I talked about the sins of the past Church in the United States With summits with a few exceptions, but for the most part we put in a place protocols to protect children and to keep abusers away from children and to train volunteers and children about the the hints or the You know the suspicions, you know, what do you what do you look for to see if a child's being groomed? What do you look for in terms of adult inappropriate adult behaviors? How do you report it? Here in the state of Vermont and everywhere and pretty much everywhere else in the United States when we get any kind of an Alligation involving either an adult volunteer or clergy Approximal abuse of a child we go right to the police or Or the Department of Children and Families and we don't handle it at all. We turn it over right away And it used to be handled inside first, you know, we well, let's look at it Let's figure it out and then we'll decide whether we're going to go with it We're first of all our mandatory reporters, but oh secondly, that's the right thing to do Do you have is was there a defining moment in this entire process where? Just one specific thing happened that that will always be you will always carry that with you I mean you mentioned the number of the abusers, but is there been somebody coming to you and saying I Was abused or one I guess one thing that that just about the whole topic that haunts you I was the spokesperson public relations person for the Dias Archdiocese of Boston from 2002 2006 So I was constantly out in front of the media dealing with this stuff all the day Yeah, and I remember a really brutal press conference and You know and I was doing my best to try and answer questions and all that and was just awful and you know and and And all that and then so then I came out From the press conference and one of the staff who worked with me said to me Can I talk to you when I said yeah And so we went into we went aside and we sat down and he said and he broke down and he said I was abused by a priest And I didn't know that I didn't know that and so we talked to him and I else he any and I And I said you know that you reported this to me now We have to go to get to the protocols and he goes yeah, I knew that's one of the reasons why he's I'm not looking for money He says I just want to see the guy. I just need to know whether the guy Is still in active ministry and I said okay So we looked at the directory and looked up the guy's name and the guy had died like three or four years ago And he was abused when he was 11 and he cried because he said I Always I feel so guilty because if I had done something and stopped him I Then no other kids would have been hurt by him, but I couldn't do it. He was blaming himself Because he was only he was 11, but he's thinking if I'd been brave and it stopped him this man wouldn't abused anybody else And then we talked for a while and then at the end he said to me And I just want to thank you for being here and doing what you're doing Because and he said when every time you stand up and you try and do what you do And I see what you're trying to do. I feel better and I always remember that I was two things I remember just how my heart broke when he said I didn't stop him and I think of all those other kids who got hurt by him because I was not brave enough and I said you were 11 And you've been carrying that around all these years And then best to happens actually if just to affirm me even in that moment to affirm me and say I appreciate what you're doing was a very important moment and the story goes on but he was just a great guy and then He actually died of a brain tumor like two years later and when we When we had the one the story He said he said my wife's gonna be Calling because I told her I was gonna be talking to you because I knew his wife as well. And so she's She said I said well, what do I do if she calls looking for you? He says well, just tell her we had a meeting or something like that And I said I said okay, and then she never called but then he came back to see me the next day He said You know, I was thinking about it when I went home. He said and I and what I'd asked you to do He said I'd never lied to my wife before my life. So I went home and I told her he said so She didn't call you and I'm glad she didn't but she knows now, too so he's just kind of stand-up guy was and He never went public with it and at his funeral which I did and with his three daughters there and his wife Nobody knew that I'll say his name is John, but John was an abuse victim But John also was doing a lot of work to help people who were abused themselves This has been an unbelievable test of So many people and it's brought out so many layers of courage and bravery and on lots of fronts and it you know, it's It's been it's been hard To watch from the media's point of view too because it's been such a struggle and that's been you know We understand that we don't want to be re-victimizing people, but we also want to be able to say how You know how this has played out and in chronicle the extent of it, right? I think the hardest thing and it's and you know as someone in the media how this plays out is that when a story like This gets reported. It's it's seen as if happening now Rather than recognizing that it was it happened. We're talking generation a generation ago now We're talking 25 years ago, but many people still believe that children are being abused by priests in the United States Even though they're not But they still believe that and that's even people in the pews when you people when you say to people in the pews Do you still believe that children are being abused by priests? They'll say yes Contrary to facts, but that's again. It's the narrative in the way it plays out, you know The BuzzFeed story on the orphanage in Burlington I have people sending me emails saying you need to close that orphanage I'd send back and say if you read a little bit further into the article you realize it was closed in 1974 So nature what we do when I worked with the media. I always just tried to be as honest as I could and helpful to them I just said they're just trying to do their job. They're not my enemies There were others around the room who felt otherwise, but it did it did actually help us I think Just a couple minutes left. I want to talk a little bit about I see you as a progressive. I maybe you don't call yourself a progressive. I see you as a progressive and I think most people who probably don't know you think you're pretty progressive as far as As being a leader in the state And I had asked you prior to coming on the air if you felt like that made you a fit in Vermont or not because We all think we're pretty progressive in Vermont and your answer intrigued me. You said that's just the way that you are and That you're not trying to bend in one way or another And that there's a you have a very pragmatic approach that as I indicated earlier can't necessarily be In lockstep with the church and I just wonder about how If you feel that you are able to do your best work Again straddling what happens what has to happen in the structure of the church and Who Christopher coin is as a man? you know As a man might my my faith first and foremost and belief in the Lord Jesus Christ in the church and all that is But where I start and that informs all aspects of my life and it does place me often times in a In a place where you can't categorize me so on the one hand And I'll use I'll use the language of Discussion when it comes to questions of a woman's reproductive freedom You know, I'm very much a I could very much be labeled as an arch conservative on this on this And you know placed in that category, and if that's the only only Topic you're gonna Judge me on then you could do that but but on the other hand when it comes to climate control when it comes to when it comes to My climate control climate challenge crisis Climate controls what we're doing here in the building with the HV but or Immigration Welcoming of refugees the appalling situation on the border down in Mexico and children and families dying and all that then Then that is the whole other side of the spectrum, you know I'm saying it's hard to place a true a Catholic believer on one category. I know I Am a Pope Francis Bishop, I believe in his what he's doing. I wholeheartedly accept everything that he's doing I was also a Pope Benedict Bishop When Pope there were things there were there were times where I struggled a little bit with some of his more conservative Statements and teachings, but I accept that I obedience accepted them and all that so it's not like It's not a thoughtless follow the leader type thing, but You know when I'm when I'm when I'm with the United States Conference of Bishops meetings Clearly people know where I stand on on matters of faith and morals and do they have do you have your own corner? I Sit pretty much in the same place But around me are guys that I completely agree with you know Disagree with and I'll sit down after getting up with the microphone and one of the next me will say well That was just a bunch of baloney that you're they don't use that word even they'll say, you know You know, you do know I disagree with everything you just said and I said yes. Thank you. I love you too, you know So the bishops are just as divided anyways any other group of people in the United States and the same as the church with the church So yeah, am I I guess you could say I'm progressive and progressive and fostering the life of the church and the teachings of the faith and its fullness and not just to You know be a what they call a cafeteria Catholic I agree with this so that's what I'm gonna take But I'm gonna leave the rest of this on the plate off the plate because I don't agree with that well You can't I just don't see how you can be Practicing Roman Catholic and not be ready to figure out ways of welcoming strangers and refugees and needy people To the table. Yeah, and also not care for God's creation Yeah Well, I want to thank you. This has been a very illuminating and thorough conversation and I want to I personally want to thank you for coming in and taking the time to reach out to a audience on Public access so and Christopher Coyne. Thank you very much. See you purpose. You're welcome And thank you for watching another edition of Into the Issues Until we meet again. Stay tuned