 What I can't understand really is why there are so few people, and by extension, so few companies that actually have a wish for the future. I mean, how the future should look like. What world do they actually want to live in? Because, I mean, like I said earlier, you know, the pandemic has shown us that you can't just take the current world for granted. Quite frankly, the current world isn't that great. I mean, there's a lot of things you could actually improve. Contrary things that you and your children will actually appreciate. So why are there so few people out there who actually say, yeah, actually, let's build a world that is like this, like I envision it. And maybe we can disagree on the visions, but I prefer people with visions a hundredfold to people who just sit there and say, yeah, let's see what comes and if something comes, then maybe I react. And that's, I think, one of the biggest issues with immature industries and immature markets and immature countries like Germany. I mean, we've gotten really, really fat and comfortable in the status quo. And I think we need to change that. And maybe the pandemic is a good way to remind us that we can't take the world for granted. And maybe there's actually a better world we should be working towards. Lynn Kaiser is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Lynn is working on engineering using artificial intelligence and manufacturing using 3D printers with hyperganic, a company he co-founded in 2014. His goal is to build objects and entire machines that are as complex, sustainable and efficient as natural objects. Lynn is a serial entrepreneur who has worked in the disruptive industries for the last 30 years and feels from industrial machines to Hollywood moviemaking. Lynn also is on the board of several innovative companies, for example, IZAR Aerospace, a rocket launcher startup and BoltStorage, a company that builds sustainable batteries for storage of renewable energy. Lynn also has, through his foundation, the Kaiser form for sustainability. He raises awareness for environmental issues. Lynn and I have known each other for a while, seen our past cross over the years at different speaking engagements and it's just a wonderful family man living in Munich and has a wonderful wife and five beautiful children. And so I just welcome you to the show. Thanks for being here, Lynn. Thanks, Mark. Great that you have me. Thanks. It's so good that you could take the time and speak with us today. How long has it been now that our paths have crossed and when was it the first time? Was it 2018 or 19? Where was it exactly? Well, that's a good question. I think it's probably 2018, you know, probably a kid on it, you know, one of these places. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. You've been doing this for well over 30 years. You're originally with Adobe and have had your own companies, but you've always kind of been tied to cutting edge innovation, futurism, also sustainability environment, also doing a lot of things in the digital space. And I would think personally, especially one of the first companies in 1970s to, or Autorag, I guess is how you say it, space companies ever. You've always been an early innovator, a leader, a thought leader, kind of an innovator. It's not just future but environment and kind of the sustainability thought process. Has any of that helped you to weather this crazy time we've just experienced lockdown, pandemics, black lives matters, crazy inaugurations, you know, all that. Has that given you more resilience or did you say, well, thank goodness I've already in that mindset and well prepared and we've weathered this time nicely. Your family, your personal situation. Did that type of new model or way of you've been thinking for a long time help you get through this crazy time any better. Yeah, I mean, definitely. I mean, you know, the thing is, I mean, I've seen quite a few crisis, right, you know, I remember Chernobyl, right, you know, in 1986. The director blew up, and it was actually a very similar situation and nobody was kind of kind of nobody knew what was going on and nobody knew how to react really. And also politics, you know, was kind of at a loss, you know, how to deal with it. Nobody knew the science really behind it, you know, there were some assumptions and so it's so similar. So, yeah, I mean, I remember that as a kid, you know, I was a teenager back then. And I mean one of the interesting aspects about my personal entrepreneurial life is that I've very early had people who were working remotely. So I've always worked with global teams I've always worked with people who are not in the same office like me. I remember in the mid 90s, sending hard drives around, you know, that was really cumbersome and dialing into ISDN modems, you know, at night, because if I dialed in at daytime, nobody could call the company anymore. So, I mean, things have come a long way. So I think, you know, as as hyperganic, it hasn't hit us as much as it has hit some other people. Because I mean, we've always been a company that has a lot of people remote and, you know, our standards involve a lot of zoom meetings anyway. So it wasn't such a huge deal. As a family, yes, I mean, wow, you know, I mean, where do you start I mean all this homeschooling and and, you know, remote learning and so. I don't think that's particularly going very ideal in Germany right now I mean that they're trying their best. But I would, I'm always surprised how, you know, how little digitization is really in that space, you know, people are so used to kind of, chalk whiteboards and chalk and stuff and like, okay, you know, how do you bring that online so I mean my wife is dealing with most of this. And I'm dealing with a company here but it is, it is. I think the biggest issue is really that, you know, as a kid you have to go out and run around with other kids. And, you know, this has been very disrupted and you can't replace that with a zoom meeting so I'm a little bit worried. Generally, not particularly about my kids I mean I think they're fine we're big family so they have other kids to play with. But, you know, for other people I mean if you are, you know, I don't know a single mother or something like that right now it must be really tough. I imagine and I, we've seen so many things bubble to the surface so it's shown the microscope on things, definitely, but we've really realized you know where the systems broken where we're not up to speed with the future. And you touched on one of those for sure is, you know, what in our circles we've heard this digital transformation for a lot of years and in some respects some of thought okay we're already there we've done it we're moving on to the next emerging technologies and things, but really for me it's like Germany Europe and many places around the world they haven't even began to tickle the surface on the digital transformation. You know, Taiwan and Taiwan broadband as a human right they've made the digital transformation they're very up to speed with that. I would like to see some of that bubble to the surface and be put into our infrastructures around around the world and other places so that that also becomes a human right that we really truly make that digital transformation because another thing that you touch upon as well with with this digital transformation is, we've kind of been locked in this human zoo of ours for a little bit longer now. So we're getting, getting to realize how it works for us 24 seven, do we have the digital infrastructure do we have enough bathrooms so we have enough computers, do we have enough space that not that we social distance in our house but that we remain sane when we're on a business call or zoom and it's got to be quiet because we're dealing with partners, or, or the family needs to study and they're using the same broadband and computers that you're using for work you know things like that, that we get this closer look at our living conditions that we've created for each other for ourselves. And we say boy this is just wasn't meant for 24 seven it wasn't meant for us to be a permanent situation and that then, for me, kind of tickles into the digital transition or goes even deeper that our built environment is not made this sustainable digital development transition where our infrastructure is not up to speed with our exponentially growing world, and the problems to battle these. And so I would love to get a little bit more of your insight and what your future thinking is, we'll get into hypergenics, but I think there's also this transition I mean because of what you do. I think you have a vision of what that future that world looks like. Not only how do you get there as a business but how have you also applied that into your life so that we can make that transition to get there. You know, I mean, yeah, it's interesting I mean, like I said, you know, like you said, the pandemic has brought a lot of things to the surface that I think we always knew but weren't maybe as urgent as they become now I mean if you are, I mean there are many places where you have very little internet access still in 2021, which is insane of course it's easier to do that in Taiwan you know it's a much smaller country. But yeah, I mean, we are one of the richest countries in the world. Why is this still a problem today. And now it actually is a huge problem. Now I think, I think fundamentally, I hope that we can actually see a resurgence of entrepreneurship that takes these things seriously because they know the entrepreneurship see an opportunity I mean if you're looking at what Elon Musk is doing with Starlink. You know, all of a sudden, I don't have to wait for some bureaucratic organization to get the act together in order to get a fiber optic cable, you know, routed to my house, because I just can put up an antenna on my roof, and nobody can keep me from having broadband internet access. So, I think this pandemic has shown us and is still showing us that the way things were business as usual doesn't really, I mean it's an anomaly, you know, it's not something that is sustainable. The idea that I can just, you know, you know, take it for granted that everything will just work, you know, and there's no disruption, you know, to my infrastructure I can just go on vacation four times a year and all of these things that we've taken for granted. I mean it's actually stuff that we have to work for it's not, you know, something that is a human right or anything, you know, it is something that we have to actually achieve. And if you look at stuff like climate change, you know, I mean, there are things coming down the road that have the potential to disrupt this on a completely different level than this pandemic that pandemic is only a virus. So if we have vaccinations, if we kind of kill that virus, then we're yeah we can go back to normal but you know I mean some of the things that are happening with climate change are irreversible so there is no way you get your coast back once it's eroded you know there is no way you know you can run a nuclear power station you know if there is no water in the river you know or the water is too hot and these kinds of things so there are some things that can't be reversed you know with the vaccination. And so what encourages me is that I see people now who are entrepreneurs who are thinking about these problems in an entrepreneurial way so they don't see. Oh my god there's a disaster coming to me and I can't do anything about it. They're looking at it and say okay there's an opportunity for me to build a business around it. So you can see people building business around carbon capture. You see people building business around renewable energy storage. You see people building businesses around you know distributed manufacturing where you don't have supply chains that have single points of failure. So you're seeing a resurgence of entrepreneurs who actually want to get somewhere. You know I think there's a lot of entrepreneurs today who just want to kind of fit into the existing system so they're kind of seeing okay what's happening what's happening okay you know how do I fit in there. And this is really not what entrepreneurship is about entrepreneurship is about saying how do I want the world to look like in a couple of years. What kind of world do I want to live in. And how do I build this. And this has become exceedingly rare it was much more common after World War two, because well, you know who wanted to live in the world that, at least in Europe, you know existed after World War two it was terrible. Yeah. Yeah. So everybody wanted to get somewhere better. And you know unfortunately in the past couple of decades we've gotten a little bit comfortable hey it's fine like it is. You know let's just keep it that way. You know that's enough. But you know this kills human progress and you know obviously it doesn't deal with the challenges that we have coming down the road right now. And I think you know, if you look at it a little bit philosophically, I think this pandemic has maybe helped us realize that some of the things that we just take for granted, actually things that we need to work for and actually actively shape, instead of just waiting what's coming down the pipe. I think it's been a huge opportunity for many to not only to see that we can pivot on a dime or on a penny and change and make some drastic changes. I've been speaking about this for years and I'm sure you have. But what I realized is it, it took it took something else to kind of shake humanity and economies and our lives a little bit, because right after the very first around last in 2020 when my phone and my email was off the hook all those people that I'd spoken to their like, help us get back to some kind of normal help us get back up to business help us implement those things you told us about that we didn't but those organizations that did implement those practices that like, this is the best business model ever the sustainability and ESG is has a little bit of resilience in it and it's such a better model in times like this because I'm prepared. And that leads me to kind of a few other questions I have for you but a lot of people I sometimes are used to say for years I'm a sustainable futurist and and I'm a resilient futurist will people like well what does the future have to do with sustainability or resilience. People under don't understand sustainability I think it's a buzzword it's you know it's, they don't understand which definition of sustainability and what it truly means but that has a lot to do with the future, or site and good modeling, and it has a lot to do with economics that has to do with, and, but a different type of economics, it's, it's one of natural capital total environmental cost, and really this ecological economics that cannot be cheated there's no way to cheat earth, there are the finite resources of our planet. And so, and most people don't see that bigger connection they think that these short term games are, are, you know that we can take it here and somewhere in the back end it'll come out but yeah it'll come out but in the wrong way and so. I just think it's so so interesting because I people say boy you know all these innovators in these futurists. Well, the reason is is because they're really sustainable they're thinking about how can we operate in the depths of space the harsh conditions are there, and still survive as humanity to do it efficiently with the minimum amount of resources or the minimum amount of negative impacts in that closed environment that come back and kill us or choke off the oxygen or whatever the situation is, but apply those here in our business here on earth so that we can basically circular economy principles and so that that leads me to my next It's really, and I know the answer but I'd like to hear it from you and your viewpoint, are you a global citizen, how would you feel about a world with the removal of all borders walls divisions and limitation of humanity, one from another. And how does that tie to this overview effect this cosmic perspective of being a sustainable futurist or resilient futurist because you are. I think this is maybe one of the most problematic aspect of this pandemic is that people are now thinking that they have to do it all that kind of hunker down and do it all alone in their little borders region or city or four walls. And, you know, we should be doing exactly the opposite, you know, but we are not really doing it, you know, so. Yeah, I mean, I'm obviously a global citizen, I mean I work with people all over the world I enjoy I tremendously enjoy different cultures, you know, and my organization is incredibly diverse in all kinds of aspects. And I enjoy that because I think, you know, first of all, it's just a fun environment, you know where we have lots of different people, you know, not just lots of different cultures but lots of different characters, you know, personalities, you know ways of thinking, you know this makes an organization resilient and fun to work with. But it's also global and so I can see you know how different countries, you know, deal with, you know, with with the pandemic, you know, we have, we have people in China, we have people in Singapore. We have people in Argentina, we have people in Germany, Italy, you know, so, you know, basically I've seen the full spectrum of how you can deal with that. And it's so weird that, you know, it seems like nobody wants to learn from the others, you know, everybody seems that they know best, you know, you and this is on the on the governmental level but it's also to a certain extent on the corporate level. And, you know, this kind of always makes me a little bit sad, you know. So, I think we are still headed for a world without borders now what does without borders mean it doesn't mean that everybody should have the same culture and the same way of living. So I don't think borders really are going away I'm just thinking that the border should be permeable. And, you know, if you look at what we are doing. I mean, with my company we're trying to connect all the global brains in the world together so that they can collaborate. So sometimes people tell me, you know, yeah, but so you're working with 3d printing so this has the potential to distribute it may factor. I think manufacturing home and we can produce our own masks and our own devices and whatnot. I'm like, yeah, I mean you can do that but that's not the point. The point is, how can we as humanity connect the brightest minds of every place on earth, you know some guy in Africa, some place you know that you currently don't have on their radar because you know right now there is no physical supply chain, you know, to a person in Tanzania or Kenya or whatever but they have great ideas there right now why shouldn't they I mean a smart people everywhere in the world. So, I think what I hope is that kind of people understand that this pandemic actually is showing us the opposite. It shows us how global our problems are they are not constraining when when this pandemic happened in China everybody said oh yeah you know it's in China you know they will deal with it somehow and look at how weird the Chinese are dealing with it they're locking everybody in and you know requiring everybody to wear a mask. And yeah a couple of weeks later boom it was here in the middle of Germany and all of a sudden we were required to wear masks and you know here we are a year later and we're still sitting at home and and can't go out. These things don't stop at borders. And so we need global citizens and the global mindset to deal with that. And so this nationalism that I see and this oh yeah let's do it all alone you know let's let's build supply chains only local. This is completely ridiculous because we need the ideas from everyone, not just from the guys you're living in our neighborhood to actually deal with these kinds of crisis. And so yeah I hope that will be one of the outputs but right now that you see a little bit the pendulum swinging the wrong way I think I think I get you're definitely in the mindset very similar to me and and there's always a kind of one thing that I think is really up is that people don't understand that species don't adhere to borders they cross borders air water doesn't hold to borders, the pandemic didn't hold to any borders, and food doesn't hold to any borders The pandemic was truly a global citizen and then this other aspect of doing local and reducing the supply chains is fabulous that's a super way to do great things but this global mind or collective intelligence that we have the opportunity to grab brilliant minds and technologies and solutions, and then apply more in a global situation. Yeah, we think globally but we can apply that in a local situation where the need is much different than those of other areas. And what a lot of people don't realize as well is that if you look at the World Trade Organization or if you look at satellite geospatial data of shipping supply chains or trucking supply chains or city movements if you look at just the trade movements of good and their own geospatial type of map. Boy that really shows you the truth of what kind of a world we're in it doesn't look anything like our traditional maps products are moving in the billions every single day. Regardless of their travel all around the world and so that supply chain that business chain of trade and doing business around his has continued to be a globalization and to continue to be a global citizen so to say. It's been that way for a long time there's a great guy had him on my show Dr. Parag Khanna and he shows these geospatial maps of shipping and transport and logistics from geospatial aspects and in real time and moving data that that we've collected. It's a totally different map of our world than you would imagine but that's the that's the reality of day to day interactions it's already global. It's been that way for a long time. I couldn't agree more. You know, and I think, you know, a part of the problem is, you know, that a lot of a lot of things are currently politicized, you know, so, you know, we have these huge discussions here in Europe, you know, about the vaccinations, the vaccines from Russia and from China. And, you know, I'm kind of scratching my head and I'm like, you know, do people realize that most of the vaccinations that people took in their lives were probably manufactured in China, because China is one of the largest supply of vaccinations so why should that particular suddenly be unsafe, you know, so you're kind of wondering why do people actually politicize that because it does a lot of harm, you know, I mean we could, we could. Yeah I mean obviously these things need to be safe and they need to be accepted but you know the way it's portrayed very often you know it becomes very very hotly debated without good reason. That does a lot of harm. And so I hope, you know, I mean maybe also with the shift in leadership in the United States, that we can kind of get away from this polarization of the world and more towards like, you know, let's look at the differences. Yes, absolutely. See the things we like and we don't like. But let's also accept all the things that we have in common. And, you know, there was this famous sting song, you know, way way back when the Cold War was still up, you know, and you know was basically the song Russians and you know one of the key lines that I hope the Russians love their children too. So there are things that, you know, every people in the world have in common, you know, they all want the best for their children, you know, they all want to live in harmony to a certain extent, you know, means different things in different cultures. But, you know, there is no evil country on Earth, really, you know, even the ones that we generally label as evil. Probably when you look inside, you know, just like when we actually met some Russians in the 80s or whatever, you find Wow, it's interesting, these people are not evil people, you know, they don't want to kill us all, you know, so they actually also just want to live in peace. But, you know, I think, you know, people should kind of look a little bit beyond the differences and more towards the commonalities because that's kind of the recipe that we need to solve our problems together. It's really, really hard to solve a problem with someone you hate, or with someone you despise or with somewhere you constantly vilify, you know, so you have to kind of find the commonalities. And yeah, let's see how that goes. I had Mark Dorfman on my podcast a while ago and he's from Biomimicry 3.8 and the reason I bring it up is I wanted it. So you use artificial intelligence and manufacturing of 3D printers. On the intelligence that is initially trained or if it is even trained into those, does some of that kind of mimic nature in the way the designs come up or the way your designs come up or the way that processes is used. Is it strictly from AI learning from itself and then coming up with the best structural way to build certain things and the reason I ask is mainly, can you tell us more about, you know, some of the things that recently there's been some real positive things about going on and forward momentum? Can you give us kind of that insight to hyperganic and what's going on, what the trend is? And then I've got some, I definitely have some more follow up questions around that because I always say it's not about the brands or the products of the future, it's how you produce that will have the biggest impact on our world. I really think that's enveloped in hyperganics on how you do things and also there's a form of a real sustainable aspect in doing things in this different way. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, maybe I'll talk a little bit about, you know, why I started hyperganic and I can dive deep into what we're doing. So, if we rewind a little bit to the year 2008, you know, I, so you said in your, you know, when you introduced me, I've been doing lots of different things. You know, I started my career in industrial machine control, you know, in the 1990s, which we wanted to disrupt with PC technology and we succeeded in disrupting. And then I went into a completely different field. You know, I helped digitize Hollywood, you know, we built the first digital cinema in the world and did image processing, you know, for the Matrix movies and basically any movie you've seen in the last 20 years. And it's, it was a fun ride, and it's such a privilege to be able to help with a transition from of an industry from completely analog to completely digital. But there was a guy who completely spoiled that industry for me and that was Al Gore, because he gave his famous talk and inconvenient truth in 2008. And I saw it and it alerted me to the climate crisis. And you know, here I was, you know, supplying Hollywood with the finest image processing algorithms that you can imagine. And I'm sitting on my sofa in my living room and I'm telling my wife. I'm, I think I'm in the wrong industry. I mean, there's this huge problem that is coming down the pipe. And I didn't know about it. I mean, I was separating my trash. So, you know, I thought, you know, the environmental problem is solved. And, and there's this huge thing that nobody had ever talked about that little people have been known, you know, in academic circles for decades and decades, but you know, nobody really talked about it. And it kind of spoiled my business for me because here I was, you know, spending all my brainpower on, you know, providing better entertainment to people. And it eventually led to me selling the company to Adobe in 2011. So it took me a few more years to actually realize that I needed to be doing something else. During my Adobe years, I tried to figure out what I wanted to do next. And one of the things that, so I'm a software guy, I've been doing software for 40 years now. And, you know, I love software because software is one of the most creative things you can do. You can imagine something and you can build it. And there's basically nothing that can you can prevent you from, from building anything, right, you know, just, you know, the amount of work you put in, but there's no physical boundaries or anything. I was always impressed with software, you know, software evolved so fast, you know, if you look at the PC technology information technology. I mean, 1012 years ago, nobody used smartphones, you know, 20 years ago, very few people use the internet, you know, 30 years ago only a few freaks at a PC, including me. And if you look at the rest of the world, it's kind of in slow motion. I mean, car manufacturers got by with slapping a new chrome label on the car every three years and said, oh, here's a new car, you can buy it now, you know, and you're kind of wondering why it doesn't consume less gas or why it still consumes gas, doesn't matter that matter and why it's still in the CO2 and these kinds of things so innovation in physical objects has been extremely slow. And I kind of wondered if there is something that we could do about that because if we can dramatically accelerate innovation in physical objects, we can actually solve some of these challenges that are coming down. You know, the pipeline, you know, that are imminent. And I understood how could we get the speed of Moore's law into physical object innovation. You know, how can we do that, because it seems so complicated to build something and so it's always highly specialized and highly specific. And then I discovered industrial 3D printing. And all of a sudden I realized, wait a second, you know, there's something where I can print something different every time the printer runs. I can actually improve, I can change, I can adapt, you know, just like nature adapts, you know, every tree that grows adapts to its specific location. It's a little bit better than the tree that grew before. So I realized that this is the way to connect the speed of Moore's law, the speed of software with physical objects that are actually built. And that was the founding idea of hypergenic. Let's build an ecosystem with which we can do innovation on a completely new level. Well, easier said than done. I mean, how do you actually do that, you know, so. And, you know, it was a long learning process. So we started in 2015, you know, I did some research, I traveled around, you know, talk to a lot of people in this industry and other industries and tried to figure out how things were built. My co-founder started coding, you know, building a technology stack that basically moved atoms in space. So because we said, you know, if we want to represent any object a printer can print, we basically have to move, you know, every particle that the printer can output, you know, to the right location, which is something which is completely impossible with traditional software. And, yeah, we came up with this idea that instead of, I mean, how do we currently build objects? I mean, if you think about it, we built objects like the Egyptians and the Romans. You know, we designed them like the Romans did it. You know, you come up with a plan, you draw this plan by hand. Well, back in the Roman times on, you know, papers or paper or what a parchment. And today you do it in a computer. You model it in 3D. It's kind of cool, but it's still a manual process. So there's some person sitting there, modeling this thing manually, and, you know, their kind of imagination determines how good that thing will be that they're going to build. So now, could we actually move that thought process, this knowledge of the engineer into an algorithm so that the algorithm knows how to build objects of a certain kind. If you have that, then you can put the algorithm to work, you know, 24 seven year on millions of computers if you want to if the problem is urgent enough you can put it on thousands of computers and millions of computers and come up with the best idea. This new idea instantly goes through the network and everything is updated. And it sounds completely crazy when you talk about it in physical objects, but this is completely normal in software, you know, if I come up with a better database, you know, instantly I can deploy this database to every software system that uses a database if I come up with a better algorithm to do something I can instantly deploy it. And if I choose the right business model I can, you know, basically have it everywhere instantaneously. In software by the way we're also routinely working together globally I mean I don't know if that person is Romania on Africa or, you know, wherever you know in the on the globe. You know, as long as the person is talented and has access to the internet. Yeah, it's going to be fine. So we already have that we just didn't have that in physical object engineering. And this is basically what we've built and you know if you look behind me and you know there is a rocket engine that was actually designed using AI. And you asked about bio mimicry I actually have it here you know so we can look at it in real. So this is a, yeah, this is a metal object. And you will look at it and say oh wow it looks a little bit natural, actually, you know, I mean it's clearly man made, but it actually looks a little bit natural. The interesting thing is we didn't do bio mimicry. We didn't say oh yeah there's this plant let's copy what the plant is doing. We just encoded all the knowledge that a traditional rocket designer uses to actually lay out cooling channels and you know the throat of the rocket is so heavy I have to put it down. I think I've matter of fact I've touched that or seen it before one, one of the events or candidate or somewhere I've seen that up close before. Yeah, exactly I've been running around with it for a while, you know this thing is now almost four years old we have been mostly in stealth mode in the last couple of years and we show it as an example. We have a lot more interesting stuff coming out, you know this year as we roll it out to more customers but the interesting thing is if you encode knowledge about how things are designed optimally, you end up very quickly with shapes that look very organically. And this is actually not a huge surprise, because what does nature do I mean what has nature been doing for, you know, a couple of billion years now. Well, has always optimized it to be the most resource friendly, you know the most, the most efficient way of doing whatever it's doing. And, yeah, as we humans get closer to that goal using algorithmic design using AI and algorithms. The more our stuff actually resemble nature simply because well nature already found a good solution. So, I mean in a nutshell that's what we're doing I mean we are designing objects using algorithms and artificial intelligence. We create them digitally. So because now, if you have the blueprint you know the algorithm actually build something you don't have to build the physical objects in some remote place you can actually, you know, trade it using digital means. And then, you know, hopefully close to the end consumer, we produce these objects in digital factories and these digital factories are built around industrial 3D printing. Because industrial 3D printers allow us to build objects of almost unlimited complexity. And because these printers are so flexible that they don't have to be specifically built for this one object that we trade. I think most people don't realize any object that you have in your hands today. You know, a special machine or at least a tool built only for that one object. So if you want to change any aspect of that object, you know, like a pen or, you know, a doorbell or whatever. You have to actually also not just change the object you also have to change the entire manufacturing process, which always makes you kind of ask yourself do I really want to change that do I really want to change that. I just keep it the way it is, which is exactly the reason why innovation has not been happening in physical objects. And that is so true. I deal a lot with that in the food industry so if I go in and to any food co packer filler food producer and ask them to make the products the way I want to have them and the same packaging I do. The first thing that always comes back is the limitations and the issues with their production and their manufacturing machinery that say oh, we can't do that type of a food on this machinery because we can only use this type of packaging and we only have high heat processing or these high pressure processing or we have this packaging and we can only do these type of sizes and quantities and there's always that limitation because there's not that flexibility and a lot of those in any industry is the clean and process is very timely the change over for new products or new things is very unsustainable, but the model that they're running on is very outdated and it's very inflexible and it's very high impact on on emissions and greenhouse gases and other methods and so I really like the the the benefits that come from this new way of thinking that you know I'm I know a little bit enough to be dangerous but is this what Tesla and Jeff Bezos and some others are using some of these 3D printers for reusable rockets or reusable parts or things that that they're using to kind of keep up the speed and go faster in that whole industry. Yeah I mean in in rocketry, you know 3D printing is well established already, you know, because I mean some of these geometries that we're seeing here. I mean here for the cooling channels for example, there's no other way to build them except 3D printing 3D printing can produce incredibly intricate objects. These objects are fundamentally impossible to build any other way so it's well established in rocketry. Also because in rocketry you have usually low volumes you know so it's not so important that it's maybe this point still a little bit more expensive sometimes. So, in automotive so Tesla it's not so much a candidate you know Tesla uses a generative design to create new structures and they have done some really interesting things. For example, some sample done a heat exchanger for the model why, which is extremely well designed, it's produced traditionally, but it definitely used algorithmic design to come up with a fantastic shape that saves a lot of energy. And so, in winter now the model why is one of the most efficient electric vehicles around because it doesn't use a stupid way of heating up the object, the car. I mean I have an example here of a heat exchange that we did and you can kind of see what kind of organic structures you can build using 3D printing and algorithmic design. I mean there's no way in hell you would design something like that by hand. And you could do it, but it would take forever. And, you know, if you made a small mistake and you know somebody said yeah, you know we we actually should, you know, change the size of this thing a little bit you know, the engineer would go bananas because that would take another two weeks or three weeks to model in algorithmic design you just change the parameters that go into it and the whole thing just regenerates and create something new. So that's really a big potential for innovation stuff. You talked about sustainability in this new model and you know I want to give you three main areas where I think this new type of production can actually have an impact on sustainability. I mean first of all, material saving. So in traditional manufacturing you basically you cut away material in most of the processes. And the more you have to cut away the longer it takes. So you cut away much less than you should actually be cutting away. Unless you have a really high requirement for lightweight stuff for example in the aircraft industry or something like that, you usually keep stuff with way too much material, then you actually need just simply to keep the production cost down. So that weighs so much material it's just insane. And it has implications it's not just the material that's wasted and usually these things are heavier and so when they're heavier they also take more energy to ship, more energy to use. So you have all this kind of cascade of inefficiencies that happen just because the production process is focused on removing material. Now in additive manufacturing you put just the particles in place that you need, which means the more particles you have to put in place the longer it takes so you actually have an incentive to use the least amount of material possible. And so all of a sudden you can start printing foams and things like that I mean here in this rocket again, you know you have these foam like structures here, which save so much weight, but you would never do it in a traditional rocket simply because it would take a huge amount of time to mill it away the material and you wouldn't do it. So maybe you do it in a rocket but you wouldn't do it in a different product so material saving is one thing. Then the other thing is, you can use one material and modify the material properties as you print versus using different materials. One of the huge challenges that we have in waste disposal is and recycling is that we have, you know, different materials are all glued together and compacted together. So basically the only thing you can do after you throw it away is burn it, which releases all the CO2. But if you want to do it to recycling it would be ideal if the whole thing was made from one material. The only thing is through these structures that I can create using 3D printing, I can actually make materials that are relatively hard I can make them soft by creating, you know, a foam like structure for example. So the whole thing is made from one material. But it is, it feels differently. And so this is something you cannot do in traditional manufacturing. You always, I mean traditionally we choose different materials for different purposes and then we glue or screw it together and then we have the final object and then you know when you want to reuse the materials then you're out of luck kind of. But I think the biggest, biggest impact on sustainability is just going to be innovation. If you look at breakthrough innovation in many, many fields, you know, I think this is really where we should focus our energy I mean it's one thing to kind of reduce and and save. And that's really, really valid, you know people saying hey you shouldn't fly, you know with an airplane all of the time I mean right now you can't. But in the end, this pandemic has also shown us that we can save our way out of the climate crisis, for example. So yes, of course, you know basically there are all the flights are grounded, you know, people are not driving their cars much because where can you go when you're not allowed to visit your family. And still if you look at the reduction in CO2 emissions it's actually not that big, you know I think we had like 20% or something like that reduction. Yeah, it's like, of course it's great, but it just shows I mean we shut down the entire world. But it has made a dent of yeah 20% and not not 80% not 90% not 100% by far, you know, it's, it's, it's just a small dent. So what this means is, we have to replace what is currently there with ways that are 100% sustainable and sustainable means, you know, zero carbon emissions, you know, zero waste fundamentally, you know, it's interesting actually nature wastes a lot if you look at it I mean this tree shedding its leaves every, you know, autumn, you know what a waste you know it should have saved it. But because it's a circular way of dealing with things you know it actually isn't isn't a problem actually it gives you know it creates new life you know by shedding the leaves you know it creates the fertile ground for the next tree to to grow. So we have to think along these lines and I think additive manufacturing is one really key component in that, you know circular economy thinking in this breakthrough innovation thing your new batteries you know electric mobility and these kinds of things you know, using less materials Yes, but first and foremost, creating new ways of doing things that will help us innovate our way out of this crisis. And one thing that people don't realize is they think okay, they kind of get in this trap that only the flight shaming or that only the flights are the segment of the carbon emissions and there's such a small segment of the same is because actually shipping transport and went up and as well as that as well as trucking logistics went up. So you've got those diesel and those emissions from those two things. But, but the other fallacy that many people believe is that these greenhouse gas emissions come from the oil, coal and gas industry from the automotive industry. They're on the list of the top 10 emitters of greenhouse gas emissions, but they're not on in the in the top half there at the bottom half of the top 10. The top half of that is agriculture food and beverage industries because we continue to eat and we've seen a lot of waste and food because there weren't migrant workers to harvest that because where people's habits now change during the lockdown and what they eat and things a lot of emissions go up there. And it was really minuscule what what what that stopped it and it affected it did a ripple effect of many other people with what you just said there was one other thing and I wanted to maybe address it and see if it's similar. It's a little bit of a different example. During this lockdown and pandemic there was this battery day launch from Tesla. And I don't know I know you, you, you drive a Tesla I don't know if it's a roaster since 2012, but the reason I bring it up is because a lot of people were really disappointed, especially the media was disappointed because they were expecting to see a new product. They're like, Oh, there's going to be this new battery day product. But what the launch was really about is saying, we're going to turn our manufacturing from a Gigafactory to I think the right word is a Tara factory is that the right term. So basically, their manufacturing their production the way they do it is, is double more efficient now, which is a huge thing around sustainability around emissions around all sorts of things, which is a groundbreaking way and the efficiency of the technologies that they do produce has actually extended the drive time on on on those batteries the charge time and things like that. And what you think giga to Tara maybe it's because people don't understand those exponential numbers or that the greatness of that they're like, Oh, that's nothing. But in, in fame respects from what I'm hearing from you what I've seen what I know. It's also an exponential technology it's also something that improves efficiency change is a game changer to bring industries out of the dark ages on the different way for production manufacturing. And it's more than a tweak or an add on of efficiency it's a true game changer in an exponential way and do you, you see that as well can you give us some more numbers or statistics or maybe some things that you're not seeing or understanding correctly similar to that analogy I gave you on the battery day. Yeah, I mean, I think part of it has to do with the fact that we humans are really hard. I mean it's really hard for us to imagine exponential things and actually it's really hard for us to imagine, imagine truly something. Nobody saw the smartphone coming for example, you know all of a sudden it was there and actually when Steve Jobs introduced it in 2008. Most people didn't really get it. You know, I mean, nobody, I think not even Steve Jobs would have foreseen that you know, by now it's become an integral part of our body essentially you know I mean, if you leave your key at home that's fine you know but if you leave your cell phone at home you definitely go back because it's like leaving your head at home or something. So, you know, it's really hard for us to really see what's coming down the pipe and so I think it's as as you said I think it's hard for people to realize what an impact. There's incredible advance in battery technology will actually have. I mean I'm always confused you know that there's still these people running around telling everybody renewable energy yeah that can't work because there's no base load you know so what if the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow. Storage, you know, it's not that difficult you know I've been doing it for a while you know every combustion engine car has a battery that stores the energy, so that it can run the next day. So, you know we are going to do the same thing with with renewable energy and you know in fact I'm you know I'm on the board of directors of a company called world storage that is doing exactly that and you know it's just a question of rolling technologies out and then the problem actually goes away and you know then the energy grid is more resilient etc etc but people actually usually don't understand you know the impact that these single technologies have you know and one of the interesting points of frustration for me in hypergantic is and was that you show them something that's quite relevant, you show people something that's quite relevant to the industry and say hey you realize you know once this is done it's gonna completely disrupt what you're doing and they said oh yeah yeah yeah yeah call me when it's ready and you're like you don't get it you know once it's ready you're I mean you're out of business that's it you know I mean there's no way to catch up once this is ready. I mean why don't you do it. And I said yeah yeah yeah we're monitoring the market we're looking you know what's coming down the pipe you know like wait a second the market isn't something that is done by some natural force or something it's people doing it just like Tesla did it I mean when I test drove the Tesla Roadster in 2012 I bought the last red one that was available in Europe. I was fascinated I said wow this is a game changer. I mean I didn't actually I mean as you said I have five kids what do I want to do with the two seater cars like the most ridiculous purchase I've ever done. But I realized that this is going to be this is the car that's going to change the car industry forever. And it's going to lead us to sustainable transportation. The car isn't the greatest way of transportation but it's still going to be a significant form of transportation for many years to come. And this is the car that started the evolution finally now and actually without that car I don't think the evolution would have happened until now. So yes it's incredibly hard to tell people what's going to come down the line especially if you also don't know it quite exactly because I also I mean we are creating technology that fundamentally means if you think about it that you can include functionality for free. Because I mean once it's in an algorithm I mean the incremental cost of including some functionality in your thing in your widget is basically it will go down to zero you know. So just like a microchip I mean microchip used to be so expensive that we put it in a socket so that when the rest of the PC broke you could remove the microchip from the socket and put it into another computer because it was so expensive. Today, if you buy a jacket you know there is a tag and the tag includes the microchip what do you do when you get home, you tear off the tag you throw the microchip in the trash. So microchips are now free, basically, and that's basically going to happen with all kinds of functionality because it's, you know, once you use a 3D printer the complexity doesn't matter anymore. Once you use algorithmic design, it doesn't matter whether you include the functionality or just leave it out. I mean there's going to be a tiny little third charge but it's not going to be relevant. Just like like it's not relevant whether you include a chip in the paper tag or you don't include the chip. So how will a world look like where functionality is free. What would you build. And I honestly I know that this is coming but I have no idea. I can imagine some things, but I'm probably completely wrong. You know, it's just like you know if you look at predictions of the future from like 100 years ago. I mean you're kind of laughing, you know, you're saying this is ridiculous, you know, I mean, they're still using, I don't know, you know, cathode ray tubes as displays or something like that. And of course we have your basically thin films we can stick on the walls that show pictures now. So people didn't see that coming. And so we are not going to see a lot of the things coming that are going to be completely normal in 10 years from now. So that's why it's even more important to get on the bandwagon and get going and try to build these things, because these changes they happen so quickly. I mean, 15 years ago you would still print a paper poster to advertise, for example, a talk you're giving. Now today you just put a flat panel display up and you know you change it just changes digitally. You know you now have in supermarkets you have tags that display the price. And basically a little display if you told somebody 20 years ago. Yeah, you're going to have lots of displays in the supermarket that display the prices instead of having some guy you know, go there you know to put like little paper tags on it. And I hope that you like ridiculous display costs so much money your entire life centered around one display you have in your living room, and we used to connect computers to this one display the TV set, you know because we didn't have a separate display for the computer. Now everything has a display. So these things are going to happen relatively quickly, and they're going to have a profound influence on our lives and I can't for the life of me figure out why so few people are interested in these changes. Yeah, I well they definitely don't understand the exponential function and how quickly the changes will occur. But I also with with companies and organizations where they say, we're watching we're monitoring the market. It's almost this thought of the invisible hand. Which has been proven it doesn't exist this invisible hand doesn't doesn't exist and then there's a lot of people who an organizations are actually waiting for someone else to deliver the future to them. And then they're hoping to be quick enough to jump on that wave and write it out or be there. And some can do it and some might do it, but it's a very tricky and it's a very. There's also a cost to do that to wait and then hope that you can jump on and on that wave, because it's entire organizational shift structure it's a new model of operating. That looks much different than the one that they're waiting in they're waiting in this one model for this other to come, but those two models don't align. And to make that jump to the other, you're going to eventually have to change your vision and your operating model your vision why of your organization and that business model to be able to make that jump but it's not something that just happens automatic. And that in and of itself is. There's there's a dollar amount there's a way to figure that in to your organization and some people think that it's business as usual we're watching and monitoring the thing that those companies we're going to get a big wake up call because that just does not exist like that. Yeah, go ahead. You said a really important word word though. So people have to adjust their vision but I would, I would actually challenge you, because I think the biggest problem that most companies face is that they don't have a vision, they don't actually know where they want to go. They're basically just reacting to this invisible hand and the invisible hand well it's not it doesn't exist it's people it's other entrepreneurs building the future. And now they have to react and somehow fit in and hopefully they can do it before you know they are segment like the German car industry just completely collapses, all of a sudden. So, so what I can't understand really is why there are so few people, and by extension so few companies that actually have a wish for the future. I mean how the future should look like what world do they actually want to live in. I mean, like I said earlier, you know the pandemic has shown us that you can't just take the current world for granted and quite frankly the current world isn't that great. I mean there's a lot of things you could actually improve concrete things that you and your children will actually appreciate. So why are there so few people out there who actually say yeah actually let's build a world you know that is like this you know like I envision it and maybe we can disagree on the visions. But you know I prefer people with visions 100 fold to people who just sit there and say yeah you know let's see what comes and you know something comes then maybe I react. And that's I think one of the biggest issues when immature industries and immature markets and immature countries like Germany I mean we've gotten really really fat and and yeah comfortable in the status quo. And I think we need to change that and maybe the pandemic is a good way to remind us that we can take the world for granted and maybe there's actually a better world we should be working towards. But to to to get fat and comfortable as a sure way that the pandemic will get you those are two things that actually makes puts you in a high risk category so to say. It's opened up perfectly the opportunity of what my really hardest question for you today and what I really want to know because you are a visionary because you have that vision. It's the burning question WTF and it's not the swear word although we've been saying it for at least 12 months now. What's the future and even more so, what does a world that works for everyone look like for you so I kind of would like to, whether you do it in hyper hyper organic answer if you do it for your vision. What's the plan what's the future. Yeah, well, easy question last right you know so. Okay, first of all, I think the future is going to be a nice place applies place we actually want to live in. You know I think one of the issues that I see frequently is that your visions of the future are usually this topic. If you look at science fiction today. I mean it's basically it's like, I mean it's it's techno pessimistic so technology always you know takes over and kills all the humans and you know makes everything terrible and. I don't know right you know the matrix you know anything alien whatever movie you look at you know it's like horrible you know. So, I think the future is going to be a really nice place, you know where people can really comfortably live, you know where they don't actually have to worry about a lot of the things that we currently have to worry about. I think it's going to be a place of abundance. Just simply because it's the natural state of the world, if you think about it, you know, nature is incredibly abundant. You know, I mean, like I said I mean the tree just throws all the leaves away you know it's not not a problem you know you don't have to save that one leaf you know and see a think of you know maybe reducing it by 20%. It's all fine you know it's a circular economy it's it works. So this is what I what I see and you know honestly we are on a good path towards that. I think most people don't realize how simple, actually a lot of the stuff that people may think is hard, actually are so think take energy for example I mean Germany is the really really big energy consumer. So electricity in Germany is now almost 60% renewable. And that is from like a couple of years ago where it was like 10% renewable or something like that so it's, it doesn't seem like it's that complicated. You know, renewable energy is actually now the cheapest form of energy and once we have energy storage. It's going to be a watershed moment, because frankly, energy will be fundamentally free. It's almost almost nothing because you know once you have invested in all these energy producing methods you know hydro plants you know wind solar etc you know geothermal, you know wave power you know lots of things actually that people don't even talk about once you invest in these. So the current cost is just investment cost so once the investment is done. These things last really really long. So it's not like you have to replace them every two years or something like that. So the energy costs is going to be incredibly low. So how, what would a world look like that has free energy, what would you do. I mean, I can imagine a lot of things that I would do. I mean, for example, I mean you would eliminate all the problems that we have with water shortages everywhere. So it's one of the biggest challenges all over the world is you know actually to get clean and enough water. So if you have free energy I mean you can produce water, you know, from salt water whatever right so there's so to me, the world that we can work towards is a really really positive one. And I think that is something that also the green movement, you know, is sometimes forgetting. So they talk all about you know these terrible things that are going to happen and you know if we don't, you know, work our way out of it, you know the world is going down etc. So we forget to tell people what the alternative is. The alternative is an incredibly beautiful and abundant world where people don't have to constantly think about you know whether they can do this or not because you know it's gonna and can I eat this burger or am I really a terrible person you know, because we are going to solve this. This is not going to be solved automatically people need to solve it. And so please, everyone, yeah, please get to work and solve these problems. I can also say it's incredibly rewarding to solve these problems, because it's actually fun doing stuff that's relevant. I mean if I talk to so many people out there. They are so unhappy with their lives, you know because they're doing meaningless things they know it's meaningless. So, I always wonder I mean there's all these really interesting things that people could be doing. I mean, why don't you start doing it, and you know, a lot of people are just afraid of change and stuff but you know, I actually think change is a cool thing because there's the potential to change for the better. People are always afraid that things are going to be bad, you know, when they when things change, but you know hey, they could actually be good. Why are we actually not pushing towards positive change. So, you know, I mean I think one of the things that a lot of people also forget and this is a huge part of my vision for the future is that technology plays a huge role in this. So, no, we're not going to go back to the case that's going actually if we all went back to the case it would be an environmental disaster. You know, billions of people making their own little fires in their caves, you know, wow, now we don't want that you know we actually want a future that's super modern includes a lot of technology to help ease our lives. But a future that is sustainable in all kinds of ways, you know, sustainable in terms of it sustains humanity, it sustains your ecological ecosystem, you know, our ecological framework. But yeah it's also sustainable in terms of that people feel happy living in this world. So it's not like a world that, yeah, you know, we barely get by and yeah we've saved the planets from collapsing but we are living in an internal misery trying not to breathe and not to to board our airplanes. Actually, I think air travel is super important, because it connects people. And one of the things that we touched on it earlier and you know, one of the things I'm really concerned about is that people all of a sudden stop traveling that people stop talking to other people that people think, you know, oh yeah, I have to hunker down in my little circle and you know only exchange my, my, you know, my ideas with with you know the nearest neighbors. The opposite is what is going to to to be necessary to overcome a lot of these challenges and you know in the future that I envision you know people travel everywhere all the time, probably multi planetary, you know if Elon you know it's successful with that venture as and again you know it's a future of abundance you know where we don't have to think so much about you know whether something we do has like a terrible ecological footprint, because the technology that we're going to use is by itself going to be you know this is really what we are trying to move forward. And I think there's a good chance to do it I mean I witnessed the entire PC revolution, you know from my childhood to the days now. And it's so funny, you know when the first microchips were invented and the first computers were introduced everybody thought oh that's great. There's a replacement for this mechanical calculation machine that I used to have so that's great you know it uses less energy and you know I can do my calculations a little bit faster. But they completely missed that this was the beginning of a complete revolution in how we do business you know how we communicate you know how we interact you know how we do almost everything. Because of the invention of the computer and I think we're at this stage now with manufacturing you know where manufacturing is taking the next step. So manufacturing in the next 10 years is going to change more significantly more than in the last 100 years, because we're going from these highly specialized really complicated way of building things and engineering things to a world where we can define once you know how certain things are modeled and constructed. And then we have a really flexible production method that can be improved every time you're something is manufactured. And so I think this is even I don't, I don't think I can estimate the impact it's going to have but it's going to be as profound as a microchip. And it's a beautiful transition and vision that you said and I know that you're part of it and that it's a very hopeful and optimistic one. It's more that we need to also see and kind of have that vision repeated for us because currently are most of our media is very negative and dystopian so the more we hear the positive stories or we see. Yes, those are visions or media that show us kind of what that could look and feel like from those early adopters from those innovators and those visionaries that maybe at first they need to do it in 3D or animated or somehow to give us a kind of a feeling of what that would look and feel like to live in that future. But I know that that we will get there that we can innovate a better future for sure. So I have three last questions for you and it's really for my guess it's kind of something to give back to them that they can maybe apply. The first one is, if there was one method you could depart to my listeners as a sustainable takeaway that has the power to change their life, what would it be your message. Well, it's something very abstract and take initiative, take initiative and build something, you know, I see so many people who kind of fit in their current life that they built, and they forget that they can actually create something completely different. And, you know, I do a lot of mentorship with with young people and you know it's it's a couple of sentences that you say to them and all of a sudden something starts and I just hope that more people can see that what they are currently doing and how they're doing it is just one way of doing things, and that they could actually radically change certain aspects and you know we are all builders we are all creative people. And I would really wish that more people become entrepreneurial or just build us you know create something new, instead of kind of fit into the current way of doing things, because that's where all this that's where the invisible hand comes from Yeah, yeah, it's doing nothing. What have you experienced or learned in your professional journey so far that you would have loved to know from the start. Oh wow yeah that's that's a good question. I think Yeah, there's one thing that that I really wish I had known earlier. Building something big or building something small takes the same amount of effort. So, you know, when you know when you're young, you don't have any experience you don't know what you're capable of. So you always try to do things you know maybe a little bit more safely than you should. The opportunity cost actually when you're young is zero you know you can do whatever you want and nobody will ever blame you in your 10 years later. So I would say, you know, if somebody had told me that when I was young that the amount of effort that it takes to build something larger is exactly the same thing as if you build something smaller I think it would have given me a little bit of a jumpstart. But fundamentally, the most important thing is that you actually build something you know it's doesn't matter how big or small or whatever it's really important to build something. I totally agree with you there and I've experienced that numerous times that and I've learned that through the hard way is that you know that amount of energy the amount of effort to build something small is actually that almost in some respects the same amount of energy the same amount of effort, the same paperwork and planning and speaking to those people to build something that's really large. And there's always this economy of scale or the sweet spot in those where you say well, and this is the vision of the size that I want to be in the future. And in order to reach that there's also going to be that sweet spot that economy of scale and so if you say well, what's the, what's this thinking of, let's do the bare minimum let's, here's the bar and the standard set by the government or laws or rules where let's just meet that. So why don't we not let those apply to us at all and shoot and set the bar so much higher to get to the future and really get us to the future. Yeah, really the experience that so many times with, with other things and then they try to take a complete system and break it down to individual siloed facets which is another frustration. And it's really the last question that I have is, is, what should young innovators in your field be thinking about if they are looking for ways to have a true impact I'm sure you've mentioned some of them but is there anything else that you would depart. Yeah. I mean, especially my field, I think people are, I mean, like, like with the mechanical calculator versus the microchip, you know, people think way to conservatively. I think people really need to think along the lines of, you know, we can now move atoms in space. How, how should stuff look like if you can just put the atoms exactly where you need them, and not really be concerned about you know how things look like in the past. If people think in their field along these lines, they can come up with radically improved objects compared to what we have today because all the objects around us right now are a function of their manufacturing process, fundamentally. And now if you say you know let's forget about the manufacturing process let's just place atoms in space you know you have like it's almost like an inkjet printer that prints three dimensionally now so what would you build. It's really tough because you know we have we have been trained to think along the lines of how stuff looked like in the past. Once you kind of separate yourself from that you know you will come up with really really cool breakthrough innovations and maybe you need a couple of iterations and increments you know before you get to the really crazy thing. But you know please don't get stuck with the stuff as it is right now. I'm going to wipe the slate clean and it's terrible I mean it's terrible to have a blank canvas you know what do you want to draw now. But wipe the slate clean and try to come up with a functional aspect of what you're actually trying to achieve and then think things completely new, and once you get there I mean we're going to see the innovation that we actually need in order to solve these challenges of our time so all of these challenges are perfectly solvable, you know most of them are just solvable with technology. And we don't just need the people to actually start doing it and the fundamental technologies there now so let's just go to work and do it. Thank you so much thank you for being on the show it's been a sure pleasure, we could talk for hours we could talk for days and get into so much depth and substance but we're really out of time and I want to thank you it's been a sure pleasure and I wish you a wonderful day if there's anything else last few words that you would like to depart my listeners now's the time. No Mark, no thank you I mean I know that we can talk for days because we have done it in the past. But yeah I mean in the in the end you know maybe the last word is you know just be a little bit more courageous and and don't take the world as it is you know because the world as it is was built by people and yeah well we can build the world as we can and yeah the earlier we get going on it the better so you know please help us all and make the future a fun place I think we all deserve it. So yeah thanks Mark you know for having me and it's been a huge welcome. Thank you so much I appreciate it Lynn and you have a wonderful day tell your lovely wife and your children hello for me and we'll talk very soon thank you very much. Thanks Mark bye bye.