 Hello everybody and all of the people here in the room, my name is Royal O'Brien. I'm the general manager of Digital Media and Games over at Linux Foundation. I'm also the executive director of the Open 3D Foundation and the Open Metaverse Foundation. And today we're going to talk a little bit about the metaverse, kind of getting real. The idea here is to talk about what really exists today, what's really happening today and other things that we really need or what we think we're dreaming about or, you know, how do they fit into that? So this is kind of a talk, an open talk with really anybody about what can we really do, what makes sense. And I think that's really the main point here. And so kind of everybody do a short introduction on yourselves and we'll kind of hop to it. So you're up first. I'm up first. Well, my name is Leo Bongers. I'm mainly an independent developer, started my own company and last year mainly focusing on small volume manufacturing and makers, independent creators and really trying to focus on that group, help them kind of like turn their hobby projects into products they can sell to other people. And next to that also focus on metaverse, try to help build the foundations that to kind of get like an open source foundation to it. Great. So I'm Matt White. I am the CEO of Berkeley Synthetic. It's a small private research group focused on the intersection of simulations and AI. I do teach at UC Berkeley. I also am a co-founder of the OMF from the way back version of it. And I also chair a working group at the Metaverse Standards Forum. So James Hurst house. I've been in digital media content and infrastructure for about 20 years now. Got my start in Japan. In the early days of massively multiplayer online games working with at the time was half of Nexen. So really had a front row seat to the Jurassic period of massively multiplayer online gaming. For me, obviously a precursor of what some people would describe the metaverse to be. 2007 was a contributing author to a thing called the Metaverse Roadmap with guys like Philip Rosedale from Second Life and a whole bunch of other folks that are still sort of active in the space. And it's interesting to go back and see what we said in 2007 as to what we would need moving forward in terms of things like high performance cloud and compute new approaches to 3D and all these kinds of things. And so, you know, here we are in 2023 finding out what we got right and what we got wrong. Move to Canada in 2010 to start a mobile game studio called Roadhouse. And then around 2019, I guess started on my current path. And today now what I'm doing is running a studio called Departure Lounge. And we have, we think North America's largest highest resolution volumetric capture stage. And the main purpose of that is to turn human performances into digital avatars ready for their appearance in the metaverse. And so, you know, Departure Lounge gateway to the metaverse and that's what I'm doing now. Awesome. So, so kind of everybody has their particular areas. And I think a good place for us to start is to talk about digital assets because it kind of crosses everybody. And there's so many different angles we can talk about such as, you know, how they're, how are you going to get them into people's hands? How many of them can you get in their hands? You know, what's it going to look like when you do that kind of interaction of trade? You know, what, what, what exists? Like what have we been able to do today? So from my background in the games industry, you know, we know how many things we can put on the screen at one time. We know some of the assets and characters, but you know, I guess it's really for anybody. What do you think the limitations are today with what we can do and what games do versus what we think we can do or where people are dreaming for it? Is there anybody? I personally think that the intention is probably quite a lot further than we think technologically wise. But into some degree, it's about how much effort you want to put in because you can do quite a lot of L.A. streaming and interest management to get really, really detailed worlds with quite a lot of content. But like the issue ends up being like, okay, well, you need to very sophisticated system for knowing what data you need to stream in and then also getting it very efficiently because a very simple world is where you can just load it in all at once. So I think it's a loaded question. There's a lot of dimensions to this, right? And so when we talk about digital assets, how do we distill that down, right? Because nearly like anything can be a digital asset. And so if we distill it down to like 3D digital assets, right? Something that's renderable. There's certainly a lot of views on ownership, right? And like in custody and being able to engage in commerce with your assets. And then when we talk about rendering, you know, being able to load times, right? Like we look at some of the decentralized solutions today. None are really a good fit in my opinion for, you know, decentralized 3D worlds, right? Virtual worlds. Is it a scale problem or is it just an architecture? It's an architecture issue today, right? So if you look at, you know, this might get me burned by a few folks, but if you look at, you know, blockchain, right? And we look at NFTs, you know, they're effectively Providence, right? Like you have ownership, but of something at the end of a URL that is not immutable, right? And so if we are going to try and like take a 3D asset, an avatar, have a bunch of LODs attached to that and stick it into IPFS, which is running under somebody's table or sorry, under somebody's desk somewhere, that's not going to yield a very good experience, right? And so I think the concept of like a global CDN and this idea of like secure storage and being able to geographically situate or cache assets next like close to the virtual world in which they're going to be rendered, I think is going to be important. There is no solution in market for that right now. I think it's very naive for folks to think that we can use some of the existing technology today. I do think that you can absolutely have an NFT and you know, put that up as art in your, within your virtual space or your virtual home, but I don't think that that is going to scale for the needs of 3D virtual worlds, right? So I'm going to double click on something you just said earlier, but I want James, you can't weigh in on that because there's a lot in there. Well, I mean, my reality for the last couple of years has been far less gaming and it's been much more in the realm of virtual production, real-time production. And so for example, as we look at using Unreal or we look at using Unity or we look at using these scene creators, my take on this, my answer to this question probably comes from a different angle than maybe where you wanted to go with the utilization of asset in gaming or massively interactive live event kind of 3D worlds, right? I mean, one of the things we've been trying to do recently is that high performance cloud and compute platform, the ubiquitous thing, but it's a massive undertaking to try and create that level of ubiquity and that level of, you know, always on lag-free, latency-free computing that you might think that we need. But you know, the answer that I would give in terms of sort of digital asset and the current use case because you know, in the hall we were saying, what's real now? I mean, I am sensing, for example, that, you know, if you look at things like even in our wheelhouse with volumetric capture, you know, we're creating scans of performances. Sometimes, you know, a great use case actually was last December when the Whitney Houston biopic came out. So the Whitney Houston biopic that came out used volumetric for every extra in that show, right? So it was, I can't say how many millions of dollars worth of volumetric, but it was a lot cheaper and more cost-effective and more energy-efficient to do it that way than it was to rent Dodgers Stadium or Carnegie Hall and have all of these folks show up for real. And I think the next phase of that, for example, is that each of those assets that have been captured volumetrically and now you've got, you know, a guy dressed as a surgeon for the background of your medical drama, you're not really going to need to have that guy come in and do a performance again, right? Because that volumetric asset already exists. And the idea of somebody who's now making a movie and using Unreal or whatever, wanting to utilize that asset in the production of that content in the same way that Getty Images works or in the same way that Shutterstock works can start to now go out and look for these different elements. And I think what's interesting is, is somebody takes that one asset and says, okay, well, the actor needs to get paid and the guy that designed the costume needs to get paid and this person needs to get paid, that person needs to get paid. I think there is a lot of companies that are starting to emerge now who are using smart contracts to be able to kind of properly divide the royalties or the payments for each of these assets that we're going to start bringing in to these environments. And then obviously I think in the gaming context, what's interesting is that if through, you know, 20 minutes or two hours or 200 hours of gameplay, somebody's interaction with that asset has meaningfully improved it or what have you, still the original creator and the designer of the costume and all these. So, you know, when we were talking outside about where do I see, for example, digital asset and the intersection between blockchain and creative. For us, that's our current reality much more than it is about the scalability component that you were trying to address. And if you obviously, if you're making very, very high-end Unreal-based digital movies, in a way, compute is not a problem, right? You know, because massive render farms and things like that. And so it's much more about how does the underlying commerce work in conjunction with these 3D assets. And I think, you know, that will eventually find its way over into more sort of gaming and interactive experiences. So particularly because now the assets are obviously converged through these single game engines, right? So two things are brought up. Secure storage and smart contracts. What's the reality? I mean, I think the reality on the smart contract side is now starting to happen, right? Not necessarily quite as far as what I've just described in terms of people being able to be remunerated sort of on a micro revenue basis for the utilization of their asset in a particular movie, for example. But you are starting to see, for example, companies that are going out there and now trying to sort of hoover up the digital rights, for example, to world landmarks, right? So for example, if you want to put the Louvre or you want to put, I don't know, Dodger Stadium into your movie, the idea now of being able to go and obviously acquire that asset, drop it into the background of your scene and utilize it and potentially have that asset change over time, for example, because we're talking real-time now. I think the distribution of who needs to get paid for that asset and in some cases that's multiple layers of payments that are required. That's real, it's beginning to be real now, right? I'm a little curious because I think you probably have a different perspective on smart contracts and content. Well, I can talk on end on what I specifically think about the way smart contracts are implemented right now, but I think the most important part for me personally is that the concept behind it to me is very interesting because yeah, we've got this really complex web of people who really should be getting paid. For example, like actors, we've got currently a big discussion going on of exactly that kind of 3D scanning that is happening of extras basically, and a lot of the unions especially are starting to say, wait, these people need to get paid. And I think that myself, I am not a big fan of blockchain and I'm going to be very honest on that, but I do think that the idea of having that system of people actually getting paid, of royalties, having that in some kind of way that you can interpret digitally certainly is a lot better than not having anything at all. And I also think it's very important and how I think personally how to be implemented or not. It's a little bit more besides the point as long as you do have that system because I do think that that is the incredible valuable part that I personally really care about. Yeah, I think you're right because you have to imagine a future in which the situation is better than where we're at now, which is actors typically are bought out, extras are bought out, and yet at the same time many folks who want to make movies wouldn't be able to use the range of acting talent that could be available to them if they knew that they were able to pay for that talent over a period of years based on success. So if all of a sudden this movie is now a $200 million, $300 million movie, ideally, if you think about it, the remuneration for everybody in it and all of the people that participate, it should be more than the full buyouts. And so does that engender a whole new era of creativity where it's more democratized because you don't have to pay for a thousand extras at the beginning and you pay them when it's the movies of success maybe. And then the next question is, you know, if that extra is now in a movie and I use AI, generative AI to change the appearance of that initial performance, is it that actor anymore? So somehow there has to be a relationship between the underlying performance and the iteration of that or the manifestation of that performance on the screen, which also is very challenging when you sort of think about it. So I reckon that if we really try and fight for this future in which that type of remuneration is possible, then it is a better democratized, more creative future, right? And then that probably I think would come spill back over into games and interactive experiences as well. But initially I think that that kind of revolution is going to come more from screen entertainment and linear than it probably is from interactive, just because it's easier, right? Yeah, so I fundamentally and philosophically agree. Yeah, practically it's a little, I think like in the, if the studios are going to share assets, right? Like decentralized digital asset management, there's sort of an honesty policy amongst them, right? Because today with the technology, I can take a 3D asset off chain and it's, even if it is encrypted on the other end, which it never is, I can pass that around, use that and then it's gone, right? There's no remuneration for anybody that's involved in that process, right? So if that, there were several artists that were there and they produced some asset together, now it's gone, right? It just, it's like if I go and bought it from one of these, you know, marketplaces, right? And so if I bought it from a 3D asset marketplace, I can share it and it's on torrents and so forth. So I do, and even Roy and I talked about this last year, which was, I do think that there needs to be some form of digital rights management that has to be bound to these assets. And gaming is seriously complicated because we need to be able to load these assets real time, right? And we need to be able to load the appropriate LEDs. And we don't want to be wasteful. We don't want to load LEDs we're not going to use. And so there has to be, it's just, it's a different use case, right? But I think fundamentally the same technology can serve all purposes. But we're just not there yet, right? I mean, secure, you know, and by the way, anybody can ask questions at any time, better here. But secure storage and digital asset management, I mean, here's the thing. What makes you think you can secure it that I can't get it? It's not impervious, right? Because I can, I can, I can't crack Netflix's DRM, but I can scrub and make a copy of it, right? Of the entire film. So, but what it does is it creates this, like, you know, fundamental legal liability, right? That you have made the effort to circumvent the security that's in place. And, you know, that's fundamentally what digital rights management does. I mean, it slows down the process. And, but nothing to date, I have not seen any technology that can't be defeated and bring in quantum computing and, you know, the entire blockchain is decrypted. Yeah, I have a question. It's not like the cubes we threw around before, but it's good. Now that I've embarrassed myself thoroughly. So on the digital, I'm sorry that we came in late in case you already addressed this, the on the digital rights management issue of assets. I'm wondering, I've been thinking about this in a broader way as well about like a post-truth world, a post, you know, economics in this way world. Like, what does it mean? Is it possible for a world where, like I was inspired by Europe specifically about the fan economy and the creative economy and that, isn't it possible for people who are enjoying the content to reward the people who are creating the content? There are kind people that are loving people in this world who are doing that without a fucking law and a legal basis for everything, for, you know, suing each other. I wonder if a fear-based economy is preferable to a fan economy where people are, you know, paying, you see the entire economy is creating ridiculous things, which would be ridiculous to me, not to them, rewarding people who created it without the threat of, you know, law on top of them. You ever use Patreon? Sure. Ta-da! Yeah. That's, I mean, that's the whole point of it. Yeah, but I'm talking about DRM though. You guys are talking about legal liability. What you specifically were saying was like a certain liability that was created on you because you copied an ethnic film that they can sue you. So mine wasn't more, it wasn't really from that perspective. That's why I'm asking, yeah. Well, I mean, I think what we were, what I was trying to get across is the idea of having 20, 25, 30, maybe 100 people having had an influence in a single asset that's involved over time. So it's not really about saying, well, who's going to get caught out. And I think you're right that there has to be a social contract between people. It's a different paradigm where people are willing to sort of say, okay, on a pay-per-view basis, I'm going to be receiving micro, micro, micro remuneration for my role in having created whatever tiny percentage of that particular thing that's being viewed has been. But because it's so ubiquitous and because many people are looking at it, other people are influencing it, that there is some mechanism through which, individual creators, contributors can be remunerated somehow. That I think is the most interesting point to me is if you, I'm sorry, because I missed the early part of the conversation, but if you are talking about blockchains and some kind of real true ledger on which you can track the contributions of so many people, like you look at the writer strike and all these things happening, then you truly could have the fans or the people consuming the content rewarding directly the people who are creating the content as opposed to the current fear-based economy in which still the artists don't get paid and the studios and whoever is involved are getting all the, you know, running all the way out to the bank. So I feel like there is that the case always gets made for artists are getting screwed. Let's do digital DRM copyright, take down all this stuff. And at the end, we are still not any closer. You know, like we did Napster and now we have Spotify. So I just feel like whenever people get into this conversation, I like to bring back to reality of like the philosophy of DRM and then the reality of the world we live in. Spotify is a different pair of time, right? Like artists are compensated, right? It's tracked. There's legal agreements in place. So you weren't here for it, but I did say I agree with decentralization and compensating creators, right? And giving ownership to users. So let me ask you a question. If you spent a considerable amount of time creating this amazing avatar, right? You designed it yourself. I'm going to cut out generative AI for a second because it'll change some things. But let's say you spent a lot of time on that or you spent a lot of money buying that avatar. How are you going to feel about the fact that you've amassed millions of followers, right? There's millions of people like Metaverse Twitch streaming you and you know you've got this avatar and everybody's following you around and you're doing your thing. How are you going to feel if suddenly the Metaverse is full of your avatar, right? I think that is exactly the question at the heart of this is people keep asking about like someone is copying you and that is stealing and that is like somehow like this loss. Like I feel like there is the opposite, which is they are your fans. Like these are the people that you inspired. They're not leaving you for the other person. And I would say I'd be pretty happy about that as long as I got a micro-remuneration for everybody every time that somebody had used my image, right? And again, you know what you were saying too. Sorry, just one really quick point with Spotify. The problem with Spotify is that it doesn't actually do the full decentralizing. It pays the rights holder for the music who in turn keeps an unnecessary piece. So the record label gets paid by Spotify who in turn keep all of that stuff and pay the artist. And what we're saying here is if you imagine a Spotify where the seven people and the musicians who actually played on the track all you know like imagine every time you listen to Spotify the middle man was disintermediated and it did pay the 13 people who actually had a role in the creation of that track, right? That's because Spotify I think is not really the right parallel what we're talking about because it's still got the middle men in there who are greedy along the way. And we're trying to sort of imagine this utopia where there's a direct consumer-creator relationship without those folks in the middle. Sorry, it didn't mean to jump in. I think there's a bit of an interesting point in there because when we're talking specifically the example of say you've got like your special FDRS like a Twitch streamer and you see a bunch of other people using the FDRS. Well, I would say in personal experience talking to these people who didn't Twitch streaming, YouTube streaming they probably just wouldn't care because in the end like that's not particularly their business. And I think that for a big part what we are missing with like these digital contracts as well is for the most part it seems to me like most people don't seem to really care about the very strict enforcement part rather they just want the people who are playing in good faith to be able to track this stuff and to do the payment because as I showed you in my presentation we've got fans that are very, very passionate very willing to reward these creators entirely through the nations. So I think the actual like the programmatically tracking part of smart contracts is I think we're going to see a lot of positive reception to that but there are a lot of problems with the way we're currently approaching it with blockchain in the way the implementation work and I think a lot of creators also say like well I think the developer truly perfectly enforced this so why are we having this gigantic overhead with a bunch of additional people in between and a bunch of additional costs in between? One of the things that actually came up in the conversation that I had today was one of the questions I hit somebody in the audience which was about likeness and the ability to protect it so you know I dressed in a particular outfit I've got you know the red furry hat and the big fly things and the polka dot of boots and I put it out there and I'm streaming the things of people that actually know that outfit you know of what I wear and then all of a sudden other people just decide I'm going to dress like that too and I'm going to try and you know change that identity you know mess with that identity somehow steal that identity of what it is is it really protectable? How does that come into play? Are you taking revenue out of their pockets? How does that there's a lot of avenues that come along with it because and here's the thing even if those intellectual property pieces you know the hat gloves whatever it is even if they bought them off the store and in fact they combined them together to create that unique outfit is that protectable? How far does it go? At what point? At what scale? So there's actually a lot more questions that go along with it and then how do you kind of enforce that? I think that was a great question I think but my opinion which may be the dumbest but I thought about this stuff my opinion would be what is this whole talk about protection and like I feel like that is the biggest like that is what they use just be clear this is the language that the business people use so let's just not muddy the water with like protection like the artists are not being protected with any of this it's the people like if you were truly to bring a community of artists together none of them if they have the artist spirit which they would not be the people saying let's sue people for wanting to be like me and this whole idea of you know trademarking and patterning and trying to sue people over this shit is not coming from this coming from the business people who know they can make a lot more money on top of artists work so I just want to clarify like I don't think that is the case like I am so happy to hear those two differing views together on the panel because I wasn't expecting to hear that I do need to of course say that like my perspective that I've had I've been very lucky to talk to a large group of twitch streamers youtubers but I do need to with that clarify of course that I do not have the entire picture and mostly it's like more on the gaming feature besides and even with that it's just a small subset of it so I cannot speak for everyone I do need to add that I can just give a bit of context of the people I know sorry I mean there's a couple of good examples right where it works quite well even in the current situation or in the current scenario current format where I think you know again if you use these things as examples as to how it can become more democratized more open to individual creators more smaller things right so for example you know like everybody knows I'm a big Maiden fan, Iron Maiden right and it always comes to Iron Maiden but there's a band called the Iron Maidens there's about seven or eight different Iron Maiden tribute bands Iron Maidens being an all female Iron Maiden tribute band and they do that with the full blessing of the band and the band likes it because every time they play you know they get royalties from the songs there's publishing rights all these kinds of things similarly I think with things like Guitar Hero if you think of the success particularly for guys like Slash I mean you know it's talking about iconic silhouettes like Jamiroquai very iconic silhouette Alice Cooper obviously very iconic makeup right and so those things I think have been the preserve of bigger companies that were able to look at that and go actually this is in the interest of the artist to a certain degree because by licensing those things out so again I think what we're talking about here is a much more democratized situation where even smaller smaller artists can enjoy the same kind of benefits by using automated smart contract in my opinion right and so it's no longer the preserve of somebody that happens to be on you know like Geffen or Warner Brothers it can be those types of opportunities become a lot more democratized and open for a lot more people and if we can achieve that then it starts to become a much more you know caring environment and so I agree with you when you look at it you say well obviously the incumbents have got a lot to lose if we manage to democratize this direct consumer audience sorry creator audience relationship right and they're trying to hold on to it but anyway so I will say that there is a distinction between appreciation and impersonation right and so you can appreciate a band and you know play cover songs now impersonation and this is probably getting ahead of Royals questions here but with the standard of AI being something of a game changer here I hate that word um yeah that's like my least favorite word in the world the I think um I'd love to live in this utopian world where it didn't matter right but people to your point need to be compensated for their work and so whether that is an individual whether that is a company it doesn't matter right if you create something you should be compensated for it right and so it yes just throw it in the public domain if you want if you don't want but why are you putting on the blockchain if you right if you don't want to be compensated for it right I'm going to throw a complete monkey wrench into this so you might want to finish this up I did want to uh I did want to add on to that a little bit I think there is a lot of developers who are vocal about this which is that in open source we're not really seeing a lot of the um of the money come back to the open source developers who are enabling a lot of stuff right now and it's the same problem as with the with actors not getting royalties for the stuff they're doing and I think that's like it's a lot of cool overlaps there but it's also really interesting is taking me back to the content creators a lot of them are saying like well we're using all this existing IP content we don't really have permission to use it the only reason we get to use it is because the companies just aren't going after us and it's kind of like this kind of gray market area they would benefit quite a lot from having certainty on that I want to hear the monkey wrench okay so the monkey wrench is coming completely away from creatives and let's talk about industrial metaverse let's talk about 3D assets in that realm where VRM isn't so much about room variation and paying the creatives it's about hey this factory that is in you know an industrial metaverse situation and how do you validate life safety things so that that factory may get copied and used as a model for another factory and how do you make sure that that doesn't get changed how do you make sure that you know there's not intellectual property that's stolen from you know efficiencies in factory it's like it's the same things you folks are talking about but more along the lines of how do you protect kind of the not the creative look and feel so much but the way things operate in reality right physics all that stuff it's kind of funny when you bring that up because what's a little more scary than that is what if I replicate the same exact factory and I put it into the site and I redirect you and you think you're actually controlling the factory in the meanwhile you're doing something to somewhere else or having no effective ability to do it right that's the digital twin piece right is how you control the IoT that the IoT sensors are actually feeding back from the thing that you think they're feeding back from right in the digital twin yeah so in other words you're you're basically you know somewhere there's a pressure gauge that's going off the roof you know going off the the rails and you're like oh I just need to turn this knob over here but the problem is you're not even in your digital twin that you should be and as a result that thing's going to blow itself apart because you didn't realize you weren't even there in the right place because it was an exact copy and this game when you don't know you're fighting about yeah so you mentioned what if that like I'm wondering what if as opposed to like so what if you do that which is fraud and criminal already if you you know do this like create a factory you go to jail or something like there's already laws for this yeah who's gonna prosecute fraud no who's gonna where are you gonna get prosecuted for what for creating a factory like and endangering people yeah what jurisdiction this is not about intellectual property I'm talking about intellectual property as being ridiculous we're not talking about intellectual property what is the what is being done here is it like you build a factory that like does Tesla's work and makes more cars for people and cheaper cars or are you doing something that damages and hurts people if you're doing something that hurts people you go to jail for or you could get prosecuted for hurting people if you are creating cheaper cars by using some technology that was you know proprietary they're making cheaper cars and the people who are making cheaper cars for won't want you to be prosecuted so you better be in a country where you're not gonna get prosecuted yeah you're focused on the IP I want to hear your comment you're focusing on the IP angle I think I'm more focused on what Royal is saying which is it's the life safety pieces of it right which is that do you know that that digital twin is the one that you think it is and it's it's a to me it's a different use case in the renumia renumia I can't even say that renumeration use case it's more along the lines of how do you how do you validate the the proveness of something that it is what it what you say it is legitimacy that's the word I was looking for I think to one to some degree my personal answer to that would be to some degree at the very least making sure it's on your own servers because there is like when you're introducing another third party like it's introduced a whole bunch of lists of different issues as well but also we have going to like what do we have right now we have a large collection of pretty good approaches to making sure that whatever server you're talking to is a server you think it should be there are this and that's such an incredibly complex topic with so many ways for to make like really subtle mistakes where absolutely disaster stuff can happen and I would say like being able to go after it after the fact from like a legal perspective is one thing but like in the very moment if you're turning the wrong knob people's lives are at risk incredibly critical to get that right so I'm not going to mention anything legal for the rest of this session so in the industrial metaverse it's still decentralized right and so if you have the putting on your own server thing is kind of nice in concept but in practicality not so much right because one we in the cloud we got the cloud right to their supply chain or in certain you know you may have multiple companies that have their parts of this supply chain right and so some something may be happening with a set of digital twin of some part of the factory and some widgets are made and that entire factory all the sensors are being streamed back to the digital twin and there is some partnership between these different companies to be able to streamline process within the digital twin space and this sort of thing and so you still need this you still need some form of protection in my opinion to be able to ensure not just the like company secrets you certainly don't want someone to be able to just go and there's this you know shared network let's say as a federated network and not a decentralized network there's these assets in there to be able to see them and to be a pull sensor data or whatever so we need encryption it's a foregone conclusion but identity decentralized identity right we have this sort of untrusted network and everybody should be able to access what they need out of there and validate it with you know zero proof type scenarios and I think that's what helps sort of the industrial metaverse is that like we don't necessarily need to trust everybody but we can trust what we're getting is legitimate right and valid I think it's kind of interesting if you think some of the talks today that were brought up was that the identity model of being able to have you communicate with an endpoint and instead of it going from kind of like the issuer to you to the validator coming back the reality is that by you being able to work directly with it and creating a secure channel itself is probably going to be your only means of making sure you have a secure environment because if you trust the server it's not like you've seen the big metaverse padlock you know on our browser okay you haven't seen one of those so I think the fact of having digital identity mixed along with what you're trying to get an identity to create that secure channel that's not just a generic HTTPS is going to be essential because when somebody can pierce that veil you could be sent anywhere especially if you're using a distributed cloud environment which is going to send you to whatever node is open and available you can't guarantee it's going to be on a server because of course I've got thousands of other people running the same facility so I think the digital identity and being able to secure a channel of communication is probably going to be one of the most essential elements and I think your point is valid which is that having it on your own servers is nice but it doesn't scale right we're at the point to be able to do this to Matt's point it needs to be federated it needs to be able to scale it needs to be able to be in the cloud and it needs to be something that you can be 100% sure that's the digital twin that you are actually working with and interacting with yeah I think one point with just one moment we're going to get to you just one one thing one thing we said that's interesting like when I say on your own server that doesn't necessarily mean your own hardware but also of course being other issues bringing in by having it be a spatial interface which is not only do you need to make sure you're talking to the correct server you also need to make sure that the dial you're looking at isn't being like that there's not like a little dial being rendered over that by the little camman board app that's being used in the room next over or the or the fact that imagine if the copy of what it is isn't really in front of you but is behind you a spatial environment I could put your feet behind you and you don't even know it's there but yet you're in the same place so there's just quickly one on that topic so there's one piece of this equation that I didn't mention which is like contracts like multi-sig contracts so where you come into an agreement with X number of different parties right this is what allows you to to basically execute that contract that might be tied to the encryption and being able to decrypt only the parties that are involved have the ability to decrypt the right and maybe the data streams that are you know going to Kafka or whatever are encrypted you know point-to-point encryption perhaps but the actual assets and the ability to when we think about like digital assets I mean this can be other things too right not just 3D rendered objects right and so it could be anything that you want to allow in a third party to access right and so I think we need to I don't want to get too far off the topic but there's in the industrial metaverse there's certainly other applications and other things that we can share between trusted parties so we got one last question since I don't want to run too far over time do you have a question I have many questions don't we all but do you have the answers I probably have the answers for one I'm a kung fu teacher so when you're talking about perception flipping things around on people that's actually a neuro-training technique and it is learnable the elements that we talked about in you not knowing where you were in regards to accessing one terminal which may be accessing a false terminal we have and I kind of had this question a little bit earlier with the IBM gentlemen one from the blockchain side and one from the quantum side and my question to them was assuming within the next three or four years quantum computing chainsaws the encryption that blockchain uses who will be leading blockchain tech in the future will it be blockchain technologist or quantum technologist since the question never got answered I'm assuming that was the answer I believe that one of the elements that are missing in this first and foremost in regards to metaverses we have a host of building information modeling and CAD and elevation knowledge and domain expertise which is 100% absent from this trying to work with them is just going to give you a smattering of proprietary tools which don't overlap as far as security goes we don't have multi-sig but we don't have multi-GP rendering across parties so every person will have a full copy of whatever model or 3D asset you've produced and a memory dump will extract if blockchain or encryption or not a lot of the missing elements in the blockchain side exist with this concept called oracles but they lack the computer vision to be able to say this is the thing I see it I move because I'm doing change detection every frame and every pixel is being monitored so being able to compensate with this inability of differentiating whether or not you're looking at security fidelity or security noise I think needs to be compensated by possibly a new internet because I'll give you a little bit of really really old school background there was a concept called freaking it's not a sexual reference the exactly so that was enabled and then stopped it was enabled because 2600 hertz in-band signaling process would be triggered and you could then control the phone lines at some point that became out of band signaling and there was no more red boxes there was no more freaking there was nothing like that if you look at the internet we still have in-band signaling on internet we only have out of band signaling on extra nets so at this point you can have an AI on your network that can simulate you now we're getting towards to the nitty-gritty where you don't want to be for example I run a discord server so a lot of people like to pretend they're me and then go after other users discord itself has no internal facility for me to be able to say hey no that guy's not me and I think that's what's missing on our internet yeah there's you get like five questions there by the way we're going to start for the first one cat and mouse game old school doesn't matter so your answer who wins quantum vs blockchain give you a hint nobody you know why because quantum will be block and then somebody will be quantum and it's a never-ending race so the answer of why it's neither is because neither can be winners because whoever the next generation of what we don't know and don't understand will become the next winner who will become that infinite loop and we know this it's the common argument we do have the general statement that there are no unhackable systems I am one of the creators of an unhackable drone system that uses quantum entanglement until somebody breaks it that's the problem with your statement is that you said it was unbreakable but that's not the case because that is improbable but what is the probability of breaking Heisenberg uncertainties that at some point we've hit a wall that we're not going to break for another thousand years what you know well there's an old joke what is the how secure is that system it's as secure as a five dollar wrench that's the xkcd I mentioned that one a little bit earlier I said if I hit you in the head with a hammer a couple of times and ask you for your pin code which is more effective that or your encryption right I forget what your other questions were so the other question was when you were we need a new internet we need computer visual oh the video payload that one's easy to address so here's the funny thing I actually did an experiment back in 2000 on this and what I did was I had multiple machines and you don't even know this this is a really cool one but I had multiple machines that were running GPUs and what I was doing was I was actually taking each one and split the scene into objects I had rendered the scene past the video put the overlay behind it rendered the next one on the next machine with an iframe delay and then send it the next and the next and the ultimate result was I rendered a full 3D frame with four different machines that were near real time of graphics across the distributed environment and then we had to do a video payload of video to accomplish it so can you do it yes so your point is well taken you're paralyzing a workload and that's an amazing way of creating efficiency but what I'm saying is assuming we've broken this encryption assuming we have a computer memory profile but we have what we have as a DRM 3D model so now if you look at all the 3D models they don't include, hey, how can a GPU render this without compromising the internal structure in such a way that it can just be copied? I mean, reality is that when you're talking about those objects, still set of vector coordinates of where you do that. Exactly, so the primitives fall down into something that's very easy to copy, just like... Sure, it always is. That's the thing. And you were saying like CAD-CAM and not being able to translate that, but the reality is that those all translate across anyways. I mean, we do that all the time now with the so's... What the hell is it called? We give it an S. And so we do that for modeling because that's how we strip them down into 3D models that we 3D print with. And they all start from base... I mean, you can get them from either or. So doing that translation is super easy. You don't even need to do... Literally, you can use the ASIMP library that's open source to do the whole thing and call it a day. So CAD-CAM, translation, 3D objects, all that stuff. We've got that now. That's a breeze. And as for when you're talking about DRM and that, you didn't say that the parallelization of the GPU had to have a decrypted payload in between because I can replicate the same exact payload of four different machines with the same key existent in a private public key type system and accomplish that task without having to do any kind of corruption. But you can also do a multi-carded computation. Well, sure, same machine, but it's a matter of whether you're doing it in a distributed environment, which is kind of like when you start doing sharded environments for large-scale replication of objects within a simulated space. Because, you know, if you want to do it, let's just say you're doing large-scale simulation in a space and I've got 1,000 people. And our big problem here is that the compute has to be distributed. So how would I do that? Well, I would get a whole lot of memory that can hold all of it and I'd put it on a box. And then I would turn around and page back that entire thing and I'd pass the memory pointer, that shared page memory into nine different instances that have a certain number of CPUs to it and I would allow it to float as a system machine to machine, basically harvesting and slicing it as the compute load moves from place to place but have a zero latency because I'm doing it all in line on the same memory map spot. And then I can replicate objects in and out of band through network replication. And there you go. That's millions of things moving in and out with an efficient memory model that actually does that. So, same thing plays when you're talking about scaling GPU objects. Right, well, I mean, we start to lose some of the efficiency abilities that you can do with those things as you start to add security to it. My question was, or my comment was really more related to the multi-sig primitive doesn't really exist outside of wallet. It doesn't exist for a 3D model, an avatar, an asset, audio. No, none of that exists today, right? We were talking a little bit earlier about how the system that is in place, like blockchains, I'm not even convinced that blockchains will scale to the metaverse, right? I think like direct basic like graph is superior technology and that's the kind of direction we have to take, right? We can have blockchains in the metaverse, right? There's no harm in that. But do you think there's going to be like one blockchain to rule them all? I'm not mentioning any of the company. You know, that's not going to happen. And so it doesn't exist today, right? And to throw sort of a monkey wrench and everything is like, are we going to be doing client-side rendering? Are we going to do cloud-side rendering, right? And if we do cloud-side rendering, let's say, then we pull an asset, 3D asset off the chain and then we decrypt it, right? Through that multi-sig contract, we have this asset here, we're going to render it and now we're sending a DRM encrypted video stream down to the client, right? Which is, that's a harder task to defeat because you're just getting a two-dimensional image at the client-side, right? Or you're getting frames, exactly, right? Right, right. And so that's probably a more robust model, but is that, I don't know what, you know, client-side computation is going to be in the future, right? And then I think it goes back to your point about whether or not in the majority of cases, majority of people, do they really want to be so nefarious that they deny the original creator of the asset from the money that we all believe they should be paid, right? So to a certain degree. What I've finally understood is, like, the security aspect of it. Like, you're running as Amazon in the warehouse or whatever you're doing while you're in prep for it and you're working with Digital Twin only, you need to secure all your assets. That's a different problem than worrying about copying of renders or copying of, like, the 3D model. Like, that's an irrelevant issue. You got a copy of the shelf store. Like, that's not the point. The point is, like, securing that it's the correct information. That's a different question than someone got an asset and now they're in their house, this 3D printed Amazon warehouse shelf. Those are two very different problems. So I just want to clarify this. We're discussing the modeling two different ways. One is about protocol. You could just entirely achieve it by encryption and to an encryption that zero-proof stuff. Keep in mind one thing you're talking about, 3D assets and all the stuff in the metaverse of what we're doing, right? Everybody's going to have a copy of it anyways, whether it's encrypted or not encrypted. The only thing that stops it is the lack of presentation from the server side and the coordinate. If I don't give you TRS coordinates of where that thing is in space and I'm running around with everybody else and I don't tell you where that hat fits on my head, that hat could be in no man's land and you will never see it because if the server never transmits the identity or the coordinate space of what you're supposed to see, it never transmits. You never see it. You're the only one who sees it on your local computer because the server has to transmit the coordinate space to the other 1,000 people on the actual server to actually see it show up. It has to be tracked and sent to you in real-time and coordinate space. So keep that in mind. You can have a copy of all this stuff. It only becomes a problem when everyone else can see it. When you're the only one who sees it, nobody cares. But no one else would see it because you wouldn't transmit it. That's the point. My point is that we're so worried about the asset on the hard drive that's not the worry point. The worry point is actually how do you keep it from the replication system? My point is precisely that we're talking about a problem that isn't even a thing because most likely, like you said, the very first point, if you hosted that information on your own server or something very centralized, most people would do that. There is no reason to put that information, the most critical online. But all the assets and a large piece of information that's on your mobile devices, the CEO sitting somewhere, or whatever, your operation person, and you want to see that, I can understand. But I was just saying, two very different problems. One is about securing that you're seeing the right true picture. The other is the asset being copied. And one last, I guess, last thoughts and last comments are definitely murdering our overtime here. It's a good conversation, but you guys can finish up. Yeah, just to finish my thoughts on that, it's like the idea of like, well, put on your own server, you can put anywhere else. Well, the actual data, I would say, is like one of the very large issues we're getting right now already with the internet is delivering just huge swaths of data all across the internet to all around the world. And while at a certain point, you just like, if you're hosting stuff yourself, you just do not have the resources to deliver dead volumes of data and it's going to get even worse. And we're essentially getting the entire world in something that's the equivalent of a high-end video game. I'll say one quick thing, which is if we're designed, if we're building the Metaverse for a single-use case, we're in trouble, right? What do you got, James? I'll say one thing. Thank God for Hazy Pale Ale. That's all you got. Thanks a lot, everybody.