 Cool. All right. So this is a call convened by Ken Homer around Frederick LaLuz the week and off to you. Well, thank you all for joining us. We're still waiting for Mila and one other person or somebody else. I show Stuart Levine. Stuart Levine, right. Stuart. I hope Stuart didn't go to his own Zoom. Good eyes, Wendy. Thank you for catching that. I would never have figured that one out. Sure. Well, I was trying to be proactive and put the right Zoom in my calendar. And then when I went in there, I'm like, there's already a Zoom in there. And those Zooms do not match. That's how I otherwise it never would have never would have caught it either. I'm just going to take a half a second here and forward the Zoom link on to Stuart. I'm sending an email right now. Okay, great. Great. And Jerry, your sound is very echoey. So I don't know if maybe it's pulling from your... I can hear you fine. I just wanted to let you know in case that was unintentional. Well, I'm trying to use a better microphone so that it actually sort of fills some of that. I think partly if it talks software, it doesn't bounce so much in the room. But I appreciate that. It almost sounds like the microphone is not on. Oh, interesting. So let's go back to... It's that kind of echoey. It sounds like it's coming through your computer. Zoom thinks it's on this microphone as my microphone. Okay. And hold on. Let me actually switch back to this microphone and you can tell me which is better because that's important. Next one, Mike. Let's see. This should be a switch. I should have just switched over to this microphone here. That actually sounds better. That's better. Lovely. Yesterday I had the problem where I was wearing a zippered sweater and the microphone he was rubbing against the zipper, but no zipper. So I put away the better mic. Well, I had to buy a... We had a retaining wall rebuilt behind our house. It was literally four feet behind the wall. I was sitting next to for all the calls I did with Matt on the Global Financial Services Company. So I bought this headset, which does not have noise-canceling headphones, but a noise-canceling mic. And I'm asking people, can you hear what's going on? They're like, no, we just hear your voice. And there was a jackhammer, like literally behind me. It's amazing. So I have to say the noise-canceling mic works really well. Well, welcome. I would love to get the name of that one that you're using. Yeah. Sure. It's called the Jabra, G-A-B-R-A. And I'll have to dig it out. Yeah, J-A-B. I'll have to dig it out because they did something really stupid where there's a... I can't remember it now because I bought it so long ago. There's... The Jabra Evolve 2, Number 2, Number 30, and the Jabra Evolve 30, Number 2. And they're two really different headsets. And one of them is as cheap as can be. And as soon as the cord rubs on your shirt, you hear it in your earpiece. And it's the Jabra Evolve 2, Number 30, Number 2, Space, Number 30. It's about... I think it was like 80 bucks, 90 bucks on Amazon. And it's been a great headset. I really like it. So, well, let's dive in. I hope people show up. Thank you all for coming. It's lovely to see you. I don't think everybody knows everybody. So, maybe we'll just start with some introductions. My name is Ken Homer. I saw this thing from Frederick Olu and Helene on the week. And I thought, Mother Stewart, I thought this would be a great thing for some people on OGM to dive into. It's really looking at what's going on in the world, the level of challenge we're facing, the ecological devastation, climate change, you know, the whole Mi'Gilla stuff I've been following for about 30 years. And I'm grateful to have the opportunity to explore this with other folks, because I think we really are going to need each other as we navigate these next few decades. And I just was so delighted that you all said you'd like to play along. So, welcome. And who would like to introduce themselves next? I'm Jerry. I'm probably the most known, but most of us have hung out in different places together, but so I think I'll just pass the mic to Todd. Thanks, Jerry. I'm Todd Hoskins, not in the pretty mountains behind me, but in Southwest Michigan, right down there. And so handy to live in a handshake state. I mean, it is. It's habit now. I mean, we live where I live here. Actually, it's actually over here. I'm a big fan of Jerry Mikowski, but I'm also a fan of Fred Lalu and reinventing organizations ignited a number of things in my life when I read that. So I'm drawn to anything he's involved in, but also the premise of this being an experience is what shifts people's behavior is dear to me. So I'm curious, well, how are they going to do that then? So that's what brings me here. And I will pass to Stacey. I'm Stacey. I'm in New York. The last part of what you said is what I was really interested in, how the experience can really change things. And I'm a fan of everybody here past Wendy. Thanks, Stacey. Hi, I'm Wendy McLean. I'm also in New York about an hour and a bit from Stacey, which is lovely. Let's see what brings me here. Climate change has always been a topic of interest of mine. I've spent some time in the past on projects and working with people towards some initiatives that help along the way. But it's always been, for me, one of those background issues that I try and put a little time and energy into, and I can. It is very nice to play in the space of people who are willing to dive into the discomfort because there are many people who don't want to go there, as they so aptly talked about, I think, in the first video. So I'm interested in that piece, too, like what kind of conversation, how does conversation emerge from and within people who are willing to go into those spaces together and then can't wait to see kind of where we come out the other side. Stuart, that leaves you. Yeah, I'm Stuart. I'm from New York originally. I was born in Brooklyn, and I love New York. I read Al Gore's first book before, An Inconvenient Truth, and just kind of grabbed onto it. I was one of Al Gore's volunteers. Went to Nashville, was trained by him to go do the climate science presentation when convincing people that this was real was still a factor. I had the presentation on my laptop for a couple of years. I can't say I've been an activist, but it's with me. In other words, watching the film last night, I didn't learn anything new. And it's interesting because I also listened to the first two sessions of a six-week retreat with Pema Children. It's about the bardo space, and we are in the bardo space. Did everybody know what a bardo is? Maybe not. So bardo is a Tibetan concept of where you are between lifetimes. So they have a defensive practice called poa, where they practice being aware of the moment of death, and the bell will ring, and you go out through your head, and you are now out of this life in the next one. So in a bardo, things are coming into and out of existence very, very quickly. And the purpose of training is to stabilize your attention. So when you're in this place of turmoil and chaos, you can actually focus. If you don't, the Tibetans say you will fall headlong into a womb because you will see people fornicating and are like, that looks so interesting. And actually, you know, you're inside of a womb. So you want to be really choiceful about where you put your attention. And they say, look for the light. So go towards the light. I like the idea of a place where things are coming into and out of existence very rapidly, because that seems to be the bardo descending onto planet earth, where things are rapidly changing in many ways that they've been stable for a very long time. So it seems really apt. Okay, looks like Mila's not going to make it. I did email her later. No, I sent her the link. I reminded her, but she's not here. So let's pick up on what Stuart said of not warning for how many people anybody would like to share something that they did learn or how they were affected by watching this presentation. So did you all have a chance to watch it? Yes? Okay, great. And I like Stuart, I guess I'll just dump in. I didn't learn a lot that was new either. This is something I became aware of back in 1988 when I started to rejoin at Macy's word, despair and personal empowerment, the new care age. And so there wasn't a lot new in there for me. But what I did see was, it was gratifying because this is stuff I've talked about for over 30 years with varying degrees of success to see that it's actually starting to catch on now. It's more and more people are starting to wake up to this. And I'm curious, everybody had a person in mind for 2050. I have chosen not to have children, but I have some friends who have a three-year-old that I just visited last fall. And oh my God, this little girl just totally stole my heart. And I was thinking, wow, she's born in 2019, she's going to be 31 in 2050. And what's the world going to be like for her? And it really brings a personal aspect of what we're facing is going to be things that I'll probably be gone. I'll be 93 in 2050 if I make it that long. But this beautiful child is going to be facing some stuff that we really can't predict. And so it really brought it home for me of having a thread to that future. And so that both makes me sad that they're going to have to figure this out and hopeful because I really do see that there's a tremendous willingness on the part of younger generations, I think, to really engage their aware in ways that the baby boomers are not. I think there's not so much denial in the younger generations, the millennials and Gen Z, if we have to face this, we've got to do something. So that was what got stirred up for me in watching it. I had two different reactions. One was the young woman who was with Federica Lu was physically, the content was really affecting her physically. And she was struggling a lot with just presenting to us the ideas. And she's clearly from an extremely young age devoted herself to trying to solve big problems in the world and putting her life on the line. And she was really like, I was affected by how much she was struggling. Frederick got a little emotional toward the end thinking about his kids, showing us a picture of his kids, but I was very struck by that. And maybe it's the second episode, maybe it's the third episode. To me, so much of this is really not about all the global crises, but about how we see each other and about the political crisis and about trust. And the reason I give a crap about trust is that I think that if we figure out how to trust each other again, which I think we figured out in a lot of early cultures, but we've destroyed very effectively, we can then tackle all these things. And in fact, we would start building things that don't destroy the planet from the first place because the problem is that we allowed a whole series of mechanisms just rape and pillage the earth. We've grown up and taken for granted a system that isn't working. And so I was a little disappointed that it was a recitation of climate crises that I'm familiar with also, not as well as you all, but I've been tracking the stuff and I got all the crisis in my brain. I was like, check, check, check, check, check, check. Oh, forgot about the glaciers melting and I got a litany of crises. And they're horrible. And any two of them are enough to not sleep for a couple nights. But we're in a Mexican standoff because other people very intentionally, extremely intentionally don't want us to solve these problems for a variety of reasons, mostly self-interest. And so to me, in this whole puzzle, that's the interesting nut. And if this weak process goes by and they don't dive into that hard, I will actually be really disappointed. Kerry, could you say a little bit more about the people who you perceive intentionally don't want to solve this crisis? I'm curious who pops up. Sure. Well, basically, anybody mind if I share my brain? It's all kind of in there. What would a call a jury be if we didn't have your brain at some point? And I just put earth in the balance in my brain because I didn't have it there. And I started a thought for this call. So I have a thought called, we are in a titanic battle over the narratives in our heads. And we always have that, that basically this is my version of the story of human history is that for long periods of time, some narrative dominates. And my art history teacher back at undergrad said, hey, for 2000 years, Egyptians do this. And then he says, it's not because they can't draw perspective, perspective isn't something that gets invented later. It's because religion says this is what art is, and this is what we preserve, and this is what we do. And at every 20-year segment in the middle of 2000 years of this, there are knifings and beheadings and there's all sorts of regular human drama. But this is what art looks like in our in our record for that long period of time. And I was like, holy crap, that was a system of scripts and heads that was incredibly durable, right? And so this is kind of informed by another thought, which is that we are currently in a nonlinear war, which was informed by the documentary hypernormalization by Adam Curtis, which I watched back in probably 2017 is when I caught it. And Adam Curtis convinced me in this documentary that there is a full non-shooting war going on already with misinformation, disinformation, spin lies, all that kind of stuff. And by doing this, you can win power and it's extremely effective. This really works. And these people are busy pitting us against ourselves. They're busy sort of dividing us. The way that British Raj conquers India is they make friends with the Sikhs. They say, you're our soldiers. And then a couple other tribes, and they use Indians against Indians to master an entire subcontinent. So this has happened over and over and over again. And we are currently in the middle of a terrible one of these. And the people, and there's lots of forces that want to preserve the old status quo, whether it's the petroleum industrial complex, whatever, military industrial complex, politicians who just want to stay in power, aspiring autocrats and dictators like Orban and Putin, I mean, all those people want to topple our human attempts to sort of stabilize things and make things better for everybody. And to me, that's a giant thing that's right in front of behind, around, beside all the other crap, because man made climate change, the Anthropocene era we keep talking about is happening because of everything I just said. Plus, we we reified and sanctified capitalism, colonialism, imperialism, all the things that run before that, which we're now trying to hit like the undo key on on the global keyboard. And it's not working like Black Lives Matter is a good attempt. But if you're a Black person in America before Black Lives Matter became a thing, but if you're a Black person in America, was your life better at the end of the first Black Presidents eight years on duty? No. And so so so that's why, thanks for asking Stuart, sorry for the long answer. But but for me, these things are wildly deeply intertwinkled. And so much of this is about power and politics and not about the physics of, oh my gosh, you know, we can't reflect enough sunlight. No, I think it was, I appreciate, I appreciate the articulation, Jerry, and in some ways, not to not to kind of jump to beg the question, but at some essential place, the question is, how can we get beyond that phenomenon? And it well, it's probably not going to matter for us, but it will matter for for that, you know, in a little three year old that Ken was talking about and it'll matter for, you know, my two step grandchildren. So just my reactions to the video, I think similar to everyone else. I'm not sure any one thing was glaringly new to me, however, some details were new. I appreciated them showing the the data around wildlife loss, ecosystem loss to date. That those data points I was not familiar with before, right. So it just interesting note, I had a general understanding that it was happening, but did not understand how much it already happened. Things like that, I think for me aptly create an urgency that yeah, an urgency, I think is what the feeling was. And so there was that for me also definitely felt a frustration, like wanted to get through this piece. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know generally the stuff like I'm already want to do something. I think one of the things I've been struggling with is having done some early local work years ago. I was left with a feeling of we need to do something bigger, faster. And I as an individual person have absolutely no understanding of how to do that. And or how to contribute to that. And so I was that all those feelings were coming up again for me. And and a gratitude for this conversation that was coming up a gratitude for communities like OGM and other ones that are trying to work on this problem. And just having an awareness that there are good people trying to work on this in very dynamic and powerful ways is like a little bit of soothing bomb to the soul. And so kind of all of that was spinning. And I'm so eager to just get to the end already, like anyone else have a solution out there, please wave a flag, because I am, you know, how are we going to bring all this together? Because it's obvious to Jerry's point. And I think I was posting, you know, the movie Don't Look Up highlighted it again for me just how the systems in a myriad of ways are not serving us. And this is yet this is one of the bigger ones, in my opinion, but there's health is one, agriculture is one, like, you know, just all these things are so interconnected. And I'm so eager to get through some of it and enable more change. And so yeah, it's a lot to respond to. Thank you, everyone. I want to respond to each one of you and the movie and I'm just not going to even try to do that. I'm just going to see what comes up here. The if there was there was not new information. But I think one of the points, reflection points for me is I really appreciated how they were inviting the emotion, the emotional impact. They were pausing, they were acknowledging what they were saying was hard, and they were doing all of that. And in experiencing, witnessing that, it made me realize that I've been in a grieving process for a while. And I've been angry for a while. And I'm not a Jim Bendell deep adaptation person who believes that, you know, we need to go all the way down and this, this, this is hopeless. I do not believe this is hopeless whatsoever. But to use both the data and our imagination to sense what the loss of relationship to our planet means. And that's where I think the disappointment for me comes is. And it's okay. I'm wacky. I'm not like most people, but I'm to me we've lost touch with life and who we are as an animal as a species that we're a part of all of this. And we we are seeking solutions like the machines we've trained been trained to be. Instead of living life as a species, in which we are in connection with our environment, and the solutions will come in mass if we're connected to life. So at some point, I hope to hear something, and people use different language, you could say connection, you could use awareness, you could use consciousness. I went and grabbed my Gus Beth quote, because, you know, he was Obama's advisor on climate change. And Jerry Smiley, he's probably seen this before. And I read this years ago, I'm thinking, some people get it. And that will, we need a cultural and spiritual transformation. And to me, that brings more hope than a technical set of technical solutions, because it's too complex to actually grasp the technical solutions. To me, it's a spiritual issue. And spirituality is far beyond my understanding, I can't grasp it. And I believe in magic. So I'm having the same experience now that I had watching the film. And that was that I kept checking to make sure I wasn't following, you know, they had their list of the defense mechanisms. And I wanted it, I knew I wasn't checking my phone and any of that. I wanted to know if I was caught up in magical, magical thinking, or I'm okay. But the truth is that I'm tuned into that same feeling that it's going to take the spiritual awakening. And that's sort of where I try to live. And so I think it was really good that even though people are aware of different things, I think having it all in one place is really powerful. And it is really scary. And maybe some people need to be scared, because we don't tend to take action unless we are in some way. But I also think it's really important to not lose hope. So personally, that's where I try to sit. So but I'm recognizing it's, you know, I'm kind of fooling myself like I'm not doing as good as I think I am. Yeah, that I think is one of the great challenges that we're not feeling it day to day moment to moment, you know, our lives are in some ways unchanged. I mean, you know, for the last year or so, I look at people out and about, and I shake my head sometimes, and I say, aren't you aware? Don't you know what's really, what's really going on? And it's interesting when you talk about, you know, Jerry, when you talk about what's grabbed our brains. So so one of my reactions was I live on the water. I live right on the on the on the San Francisco Bay in Alameda. And so one of my reactions, when I watched the movie, it reactivated the thinking, well, I've got to sell my home because the water is rising. And there's a lot of money involved in this. And I've got to escape to higher ground. And it's a home that I love, it's a sanctuary, it's a bird sanctuary, it's title, it's unbelievable what goes on out here. And yet because of the capitalist wiring, there's that piece of knee jerk reaction. I don't know where to go with that. I just I just don't it's an incredible kind of a kind of a push pull. Thanks, Stuart. I really resonate with that. I often feel very schizophrenic. You know, on the one hand, I'm way too aware of multiple ecological and climatological threats that are that are going on. On the other hand, as Paul Hawkins says, you know, if you're looking at the data and you're not in despair, you're not really absorbing the data. But if you're looking at who's working on it and you don't have hope, you're not really attuned either. So these two polls of, you know, I know so many people in organizations are working at every level possible to bring about a greater awakening. And to Todd's point, I use spiritual intelligence as a metaphor for whatever makes you feel connected to something larger than yourself. So if for some people that's nature, some people that's family, some people that's work, some people that's religion, you know, but we are all earthlings, you know, Alan Watts says the earth peoples in the same way that an orange tree oranges or an apple tree apples. And I'm reading Tamsen Ray Barker's book Teaming right now about stupid organisms and how they compound infinite wealth on a finite planet. And I don't like the term biomimicry. I think if we were attuned, if we had our wits about us and we were naturally expressing the the intelligence of nature through us, we wouldn't have to make up terms like biomimicry, we would be much more aligned and operating in ways that we're actually compounding wealth instead of burning it up. So I keep going back to 30 years ago working with Joanna Macy and there are certain rituals that were really necessary. And I've come to appreciate deeply the role of ritual in transformation. I don't think psychology actually has a clue about what's really needed to bring about the deep levels of transformation. So one of those exercises that we did was meeting your death. So as we're up in in Shenoa up in the Redwoods, and it's an old Boy Scout camp, there's a big huge soccer field, and you're told, okay, look around, 150 people, look around, make eye contact with somebody, go and stand next to them, and you're like, oh, you look cute, I'll go stand next to you. And then you're told, that person is your death. So what we're going to do now in this next bit of time is you're going to walk around in a random walk on the on the soccer field here and do what you can to avoid making eye contact, except don't just immediately as soon as that person catches your eye, you know, that's that you have to go and meet them. And so when that happens, you go and sit and then you talk about what does it like to meet your death? And it actually proved to be a very empowering and lovely ritual where it's like, you know, sooner or later, death is going to catch up. And I have a chance to sit and talk with death and death. And I'm someone I'm representing someone's death and it unfolded into a new dimension of acceptance of dropping fear out of the equation of death. Like, in my case, death was a very attractive young woman and it worked really great for me to talk with her, right? So I think we have to kind of find the rituals that allow us to face these overly overwhelmingly dark and oppressive scenarios that are on people's minds, you know, the runway tipping points, the climate change, the hot house scenarios, these are terrifying. But if we don't find a way to actually look at them and allow us as we say, sustain the gaze on this, you know, the Buddhists will go into into burial grounds and watch bodies decompose and decay and puff up and burst and stink and everything because they know that's going to happen to you. You are forced to confront that. We have to confront this in a way where we have the support that allows us to say, even with all that, I won't let that deter me from what is important. I will continue to work to bring forth whatever light I can to support people who are going through hard times to find ways to think together and change our thinking from technical to adaptive. We don't have the right mindsets to handle this. We have to move out of the technical challenges into how do we change and mass large portions of the population's level of engagement with this from being a denial or despair to actively embracing, okay, this is real, what are we going to do? It may not affect me so much for my kids, my grandkids are going to be, you know, bearing the run to this. So how are we going to go about that? So a metaphor is coming up and that is, you know, some force descending on planet earth with a megaphone saying the earth is dying, wake up, the earth is dying. And in some ways, I mean, I had this flash within the last couple of days, it is, you know, you might look at however many, and I don't really know the science that well or the geology or the anthropology, but there's been a flowering of civilization in some ways. In some ways, during our lifetime, you know, the quadratic expansion of technological advancement, the, you know, the presence of technology and computers. And it's just like, it's almost like, it's, oh my God, this is just unbelievable, these beautiful flowers are have erupted. And that's the end. Okay. That's the end as we know it, or as we've known it. It doesn't mean that there's not going to be something after, but that thing after is different. It's almost like, you know, part of the, and this is interesting, because Pema was talking about this last night, you know, part of the dying process is also a rebirthing of some kind, something else is, is, is emerging. I think it was last year, I read this book called collapse about, you know, it was almost like a pioneering book in some sense about what we'll need as humans to survive this, this trajectory we're on. Yeah. So, so, so there's a lot of people out there preparing for life after collapse, whatever collapse might look like, you know, I think we all live in a little bit of hope. I know that I do that it won't be, you know, a dystopian universe, but it, it may very well be. I had that, I was filled with that fear at the beginning of, of, you know, the pandemic or the isolation, but we don't know. I don't know. Met a lot, Stuart saying that the birth and death connection, sometimes it strikes me, sometimes I'm in a, I can't believe this is really happening with the state of the world. And sometimes it's just strikes me as so anthropocentric that life continues and life would continue without us, without us humans. And I don't think life would be better off without us. I don't think that that's the case. But we're losing species, but there's all sorts of evolution happening at the same time. And I don't think that for me, it doesn't, that doesn't take away our responsibility with the size of our brains that we've been given and the largest population of mammals on the planet that we do have stewardship. And so let's not just let things die so that other things can be born. But if I take my, we've got to save the humans. When they, when you say let's save the planet, sometimes it kind of is interpreted as we need to save the humans. And it's almost as I'm almost laughing when I hear it because I'm thinking life will be fine. It's the humans I'm worried about. Yeah, Todd, it's, it's interesting that you bring that up because I was thinking about that. My, when I was maybe a young teenager, it was my father who actually said that to me. He said he, he was very in touch with climate change science at that time. And I remember us having a short conversation and saying something like, oh, it's not about saving the planet. The planet's going to continue to be around for a really long time. It's about saving the ecosystem so humans can survive in it. And it stuck with me. And I think in some ways the publicity around that has allowed us to distance ourselves from what's happening, right? It's, it's a little bit of a shift in narrative to say, to go from let's save the planet to let's save humanity, right? It's, so we don't, there's a resistance, I'm sure, but I think we'd get a lot further if we started saying let's save humanity or save the ecology for humanity or something like that, you know, along those lines. Planet Earth is fine. Somebody in the scientific community within NASA said that they believe that they will find life on Mars in the next two years, evidence of life on Mars. And I stopped to, to take that in and realizing that rock is mostly dead matter. I mean, almost everything we see was alive at some point. And of course there's life elsewhere, but what does it, what does it do to our conception of ourselves and our planet if there is known life outside of our planet? And I hope it doesn't drive that escapism as to like where can we find that we can go that we can, we need a second chance. And I'm like, I don't think that's going to go any better until we address, you know, our state of connection to each other and to life. It reminds me of a bumper sticker I've seen from the right that says Earth first, we can log the other planets later. There is, there does seem to be in human consciousness this countervailing trend to our, our ecological or evolutionary development of, of becoming more complex and more compassionate. And if you look at the history of, of the idea of God, we've moved from very vengeful gods to more compassionate gods. And I think there's a really wonderful, well, in some cases, you know, I don't, I don't really like to talk about God very much, because I don't actually find it useful. But the best definition I've ever heard of God comes from a knock on creditor who says, God is the collective potential of human imagination. That's an idea about God I can actually get behind. Because we put our collective potential together of human imagination, we do, we do stand a chance. And it shows up again and again in myth and story of, you know, there are, there are those among us or those among us who get infected with the bug of let's destroy it, let's let's tear things down. And, you know, I'm certainly aware of how that showed up my own life. And it's a really naughty problem. How, how do we go about addressing that when our very survival as a species might be dependent upon our recognizing that if we continue to sow those seeds, we're going to, we're going to take ourselves out of the picture. So what does that mean for us as a species of how do we approach this with the appropriate reverence and tools and find the way the way through to, to, you know, transcend and include that. I don't know. It's a total mystery to me. But yeah, as you speak, Ken, you know, what pops up in my mind is that we're all addicted. We've all become addicts to, you know, think about all the little nuances of your own life that you're addicted to. And, and, and, and I think one of the, the critical thing that needs to be invented is, is how to get people unhooked. So that they can actually realize that that there is something else and it has to change because this is just not going to continue. It's funny as I, as I, as I, as I talk, I, I'm thinking that I'm, I'm mouthing words of 30 years ago, 40 years ago, 50 years ago, this is not sustainable. And yet no one's, no one's no one's invent, invented yet or come up with that, the mass mechanism that's going to unhook us from all of the, our, from our addiction to the, to the, to the way it is. I don't know. Jerry? So my feeling is that we're in one of those moments of punctuated equilibrium between the long periods where stuff happens a certain way. And that 100 years from now people will look back on these decades that we're living through right this minute and say, well damn if, if somebody didn't invent the thing you just described during that period. And then, and so there's, to me, to oversimplify there's like two futures, the road forks and either damp if they didn't fail entirely miserably as humans and destroy the planet and kill off most humans or one of those sets of beliefs and attitudes and rituals and so with, and platforms that came in grabbed hold and humans managed to save themselves and manage to straighten things out. And, and, and I look around and I collect the candidate platforms and components and rituals and belief systems right that that's what I'm avidly and actively looking for them. And I don't have the time and wherewithal to compare and contrast them and do a nifty analysis or to test them all out. I know a few people who run deep in several of them, that's really cool, but haven't convened the conversation to say, hey, what's missing, which ones work, how do they work together? Are they in opposition? Because I don't think there's like one platform or one belief system to rule them all. I think it's going to be this lovely polyglot mess that happens to be pulling in the same sets of directions because its underlying principles are shared. And that means that they're not working against each other, they're working roughly together, right? So, so I love that quest and to me when Wendy's like, let's, let's find the emerging solutions, that to me is a big part of the problem and Wendy, I think your tapestry and my mosaic and whatever else in some sense are attempts to make sense of that possible positive future. And that's why we're excited about them. Right? I'm not excited about curating the brain for 24 years because it shows how well we're doomed and how like, how much we're heading toward the apocalypse. Like, I have that stuff in there, but I'm really excited about it because if we made better sense of the world together, we might actually solve for some of these things. I just put a, sorry, Stacy, go ahead. I keep thinking of all the online conversations I've ever been in with people that are really committed to helping save the environment and how they've gone at each other and wound up into all these fighting matches. And I think the only, so the only way we get unhooked to something is to hook into something else. For me, that hook is human relation. I'm somebody, I really like my luxuries. I don't know how I would deal without air conditioning, but when I was a kid, we used to go to the Catskills and there was no air conditioning and there was no luxuries and I lived in a shack. And if I had the opportunity to be frozen in time in any period, it would be there because everywhere around me were people that loved me that I loved, not that we didn't fight, not that we didn't have different opinions, but that means more than anything. And so as I'm thinking about this whole, what we're doing, this whole project, you mentioned somebody in jest earlier that should have been invited here, but in another situation that's exactly who should have been invited here because these are the connections that we need to make and we can do that when we see each other in a different way. I feel very emotional right now because that being human and connecting and being in this moment and we talk about recognizing we're connected to the earth. If I can't recognize that I'm connected to you, how can I recognize I'm connected to a tree? So it's a big undertaking we have. It is. I just put a note in the chat negotiating the non-negotiable by Daniel Shapiro. He's the president of the Harvard International Negotiation Project and he starts the book off by describing being at Davos and he's in a room at Davos away from the media with 50 big movers and shakers in the world, presidents of corporations and presidents of universities and people in the government service in Telemnacore. And they're told that they're only small groups are told you have to save the world, right? You have to come up with a way to save the world. Then all of a sudden the lights go out and this door opens and an alien comes in and says you have one hour to figure out how you're going to save the world or I will destroy it and then disappears and so people are charged with how we're going to save the world and it's incredibly rare that people actually come together to save the world. For a long time we've had this idea if we just had an external foe we could all come together and focus our attention on we would pull humanity together. That's not how it works. That's not the way people go after it and the very, very few times where running that exercise, yeah, like maybe a novel virus that would wipe people out, yeah, that's going to work. So the very few times when the simulation has been successful, it's been where people have been able to put aside ego and really listen deeply and include other points of view that they don't necessarily agree with and I think that's where we get hung up as you know, we are disconnected from each other in extreme ways. One of the things capitalism has done is and I don't mean to romanticize you know, different times when people lived in small communities where everybody had to support each other because that all look out all kinds of problems but within an age now where you can say fuck you to somebody I can live on my own and I don't have to be a nice person and I can you know just do whatever I want because we've set that up but that comes at enormous cost, that relational social cost and the ecological cost. How many people do you know that make all their own clothing and grow all their own food and do everything? Nobody does it anymore, you know, we're all embedded in the system so we all have varying degrees of ways that we are both tesseling explicitly making that okay and the inertia is really hard to overcome, you know, you wake up and go I want to change and it's like wow I want to change too, I'm going to get rid of my car, well I live in a place where I have to have a car, you know, if I get rid of my car it takes me three hours to go somewhere in public transit that I could get two in 40 minutes in a car. I'm not going to make that trade-off so there's things that are stacked against us and I'm interested in where the tipping point comes from and how people say this is not going to work, you know how much it costs to keep a horse in Moorin County? But there's a lot of them you could just borrow someone else it's just like slide over to some stable and yeah I'd have to be well there are some horses in the centerfell area but I'd have to go more towards West Moorin for that and then you know they hang horse thieves I think still so you know be careful about the borrowing part so I'm really interested in identifying the places where and I think the experience of the week is one waking people up in a way to to recognize we are facing some really big big problems and we're facing them disjointedly and and without a sense of community and without a sense of how to go about handling them and just the first step of getting people to recognize that I think is really important I'm very I have not watched the other two episodes yet I'm really interested to see what's going to happen what they've got for ideas on how to make this happen um and I will say I've always had trouble with theory you because I think it's the wrong visual metaphor it's like Sisyphus you push the rock up and you fall back down on the you right it's like I need I need a sine wave I need the complete circle even if it's opened up into a sine wave so that's just my own thing of you know they didn't put at the bottom of the you there the utter desolation and despair of I am overwhelmed I surrender that's the part of the initiation experience where you get dismembered and everything you ever held dear is stripped away from you and then you slowly reassemble into a new being and when you re-emerge you need a new name you need people to recognize you've been through some kind of change we forget that in this culture we don't have a sense of initiation that when people have gone through a very deep initiatory process they are different and you can't treat them the way you'd used to treat them in the days of old so I have been down into that bottom part many times of make it up I know I just this is I can't handle it and I've been dismembered and I've been reassembled a few times and it keeps going on and um yeah here is turning me through you I face it's it's better explained as a circle the ambit you know um anyway that's just my own personal little dig at at them at three you so fill us I'm sorry so why why will this time be different than Al Gore's warning of 30 35 years ago why will it be any different why will it why will it why will it fall I actually had a to answer that I actually think there are more people who are awake to the threat and to the potential for change um then even a decade ago when I first started I like I was part of an environmental club as a parent teachers association at my daughter's elementary school and I picked that partly because it's a topic that interested me and I know it could give back a little with a little amount of time that I had but also because no one was paying attention we could do whatever we wanted and then inconvenient truth came out and within a month it went from yeah those are kind of like the three hugging moms over there too so what are you guys doing to solve the climate problem it was just it was very interesting and that to me from my and my trajectory through this was uh was one of the big changes that I saw um of people waking up and I think that has continued you know in different ways for different people over different things um I think it's been um subverted a couple times and distracted a couple times with different politics or theories or whatever but I generally think that the the um the impetus the urgency has been growing for a lot of people and I think a lot of people are in that space of don't know what to do um Ken when you were saying before that you feel like psychology doesn't have a lot to offer um in the space of like trying to figure out how to what to do with all of this what's interesting for me in my background in that in that sphere and also my spiritual practice is to me the science particularly coming out of the positive psychology angle and spirituality has both looked at kind of what's emerging what calls people forward to things and that was something I was posting in the chat before versus why do I mean there's plenty of motivation we understand a lot when people are upset about something right or they have a illness or they have fear or they have right and that's politics types right into that and gives us those narratives that we think are so destructive but we what we don't have really yet but isn't but is getting stronger with every month that passes is how do we develop a narrative around something that's calling us forward into something better that will motive that we can all galvanize around and I do think there's good science there and I do think even and and where science is meeting spirituality I do think there's a richness there as the two worlds are coming together that um that provides us an opportunity to mine a little bit for for how we can call people for it and that brings me back to there are plenty of people who are already scared and motivated and then I think there's a larger group of people who would do something if they felt called forward to something that they don't need to go through that dismembering right the the hero's journey version they just need to get on like jump this track to that track and they would if they saw that there was a benefit to do so so I think there's a couple different tactics that you know we can be taking and and there's a lot that we could be doing um two things and by way of answering Stuart's question one is and the first was a very short story of my completely amateur take on postmodernism and uh again I'm gonna share a screen uh so my one of my beliefs is that postmodernists were actually right they were just way too early and they wound up talking only to themselves they wound up creating a code that made it so that so you you couldn't understand these people they were speaking in in these abstract terms but but if you go back and you look at what Derrida and Deleuze and Guattari and all these people were saying it's like well shit we are totally living in the in the the society the spectacle and and even like the rhizomes and the idea of you know the worldwide web is the rhizomal network of of human knowledge all this kind of stuff was there and then I just connected that to a really important thought in my brain that I did in 2020 does 2020 mark a generational tipping point and here I'm saying Greta Thunberg so here's Greta got a lot of stuff on Greta uh but everything sort of that feels a little Greta-ish so um uh zero hour of school strikes for climate change was just Greta psych uh the rising popularity of our wealth tax uh 2006 might be peak democracy is a different sort of focus for me but the sunrise movement nerdfighteria uh gen z coming up all of us AOC in the squad uh brand new congress I forget even what that is peak buddha judge a bunch of really sort of young people showing up just send the ardor and being the prime minister of new zealand and being spectacular and running a country really beautifully the green new deal things like that so I have this feeling that if these groups uh I have also here the the school students against us here we go marjory stonem douglas school students activated by the shootings but if if these groups can loosely link arms and elect and through one avenue elect in a whole new slate of people to run things and then separately actually get busy on the big questions I think they could actually make a difference and they wouldn't be too early like the postmodernist star were they would be like oh okay this is crucial we actually need to pull this off and get it done and and I'm and I'm also sort of trying to I'm taking the lid off a little bit of another really important conversation that we haven't touched very much and that the the week hasn't touched on at all which is hey guess what solutions to all these thorny problems are complicated counteractive like there's a tremendous amount of debate about what to do to solve these problems tremendous and and very reasonable debate and I'm I'm on a scientific emailing list where you know amary lovins is basically like no nukes anywhere whatsoever and other people like why is germany closing down safe functional nukes that are good energy and then buying coal on the side and getting itself indebted to rusher for a pipeline like seriously people um and and so all these things are very very hard to to sort out and if we don't get our heads together and sort them out together that's going to be a mess but it's also exciting and fun and a huge business opportunity I was I was sitting in front of Al Gore speaking some years ago and his first sentence was I I just can't figure out why why I can't convince business people that green is a huge business opportunity I just I just don't understand why that doesn't engage why somebody's got to build the smokestack scrubber gear that goes on the factory to clean the air somebody's gotta like really seriously now then if you think about who's been defended like let's see so we're gonna put more money in the shareholders of exxon and and texaco so here's a great example like my husband worked for consumer reports right years ago and he worked there for about 10 years and I said please oh my god have them add a green reading right make it up like I don't even care what criteria you use you have experts in the building who will add a green reading all I want as a consumer is to look at a green reading as the number one reason to buy something your consumer reports please put a green couldn't do it the internal politics around a green reading they and that was now 17 years ago or something crazy to talk them out of using the word consumer yeah so so I want to throw another vector in that's that's popping around and I agree with everything you say Jerry and the other vector is is is Vladimir Putin because he's just a metaphor an example of another phenomenon that's present here and it would be interesting to see how core liberal democracies deal with Putin if if he were to invade Ukraine but that's that's a that's a powerful force that's present on a on a on a planetary basis that that needs to be addressed in some way I'm not sure I'm not sure what but I all I can think of during this period of time with you know him massing a million troops on on the border or whatever the number was um what the fuck are you doing we're in the middle of a pandemic and in the middle of climate change and you're you're you're operating as if it was 1855 I mean it's just nuts it's just absolutely crazy this goes to something that is not part of the week but I just recently read ministry for the future and there's some black ops that go on that say you know there's really about 100 people in the world who are responsible for funding all these disinformation campaigns and you know we're going to take them out and we're going to make sure that they do and and you know that's it's it's not hugely featured but it shows up in the book and you know I much prefer having spent all these years studying Buddhism to you know go the enlightened route but I recognize you know in reading the Dalai Lama's autobiography he talks about Cho and Lai who are they referred to as Chu and Lai and there's nothing that the you know the Tibetans were the most spiritually evolved people on the planet and the Chinese came in and wiped them out like you know done you're gone we're taking over your country fuck you we don't care how great you are when you're confronted with that when you have that people say this is we've got power we're going to use it ruthlessly we don't care what the costs are what's the appropriate response if you're Jewish and you're told by the Nazis you don't have the right to exist what's the appropriate response right you fight like hell you're like you come at me you know I'm a peaceful person you come at me I will take you out if I need to and we don't have that living in a nobody in charge world we allow that kind of delegitimization of certain populations to fall wherever the money and power is and say that's okay you know we'll deal with it that's what Putin has Putin has money and power to say we don't recognize your right to exist we're going to do what we want and there's no collective response on the part of the planet actually I should say there is I mean Biden's doing a very good job with diplomacy and economic sanctions but there isn't yet an overwhelmingly you can't do that coming from the people because the people aren't organized as the people they're they're divided as you know the serfs and the peons thanks for articulating overwhelming response Ken because that's what it demands in some way you wish that there would be a do not do this because you know it's kind of like a Disney movie where all the animals come running at the last minute to save everybody yeah and how to get there how to you know that how do we and I don't like to use the how questions let me ask this what would it look like stepping into an imaginal space what would it look like if the world could work on as itself to ensure its own future to make sure you know Todd mentioned you know big brain humans I have this thing the dinosaurs live for 165 million years with brains the size of walnuts we have these massive brains we're taking ourselves out of the picture after three million years can we at least have as long as dinosaurs had I would just that's my vision I want to I want the human race to live at least as long as the dinosaurs to allow these big brains to actually network and create a world where we could flourish we could thrive that all of the the the problems that plague us that are solvable could be solved they will never solve you know there's always going to be dissent the Greeks had it right families are really tough mothers will kill sons sons will kill fathers and sleep with mothers and you know siblings kill siblings all that stuff that's never going to go away but we don't have to have it enacted on a massive global scale almost all of the technical issues that we're facing the stuff is known it's the adaptive challenge of changing the mindsets you know when I talk about stuff like this I'm labeled a utopian and naive I don't think I'm utopian I don't think I'm naive this is doable shit what's you what's you what's naive is to believe that people's can't come together in their own collective self-interest and and move effectively there's a story that I've heard from the Iroquois that said you know the Iroquois had slaves it took them a thousand years to get rid of slavery they recognized as an affront to the human soul and when Washington and Jefferson and Franklin were putting together you know the nascent government of what would become United States of America they were warned you can't allow slavery slavery will tear you apart from the inside it will just destroy you it's it is you know it's not acceptable and they were told well we we can't get them to vote on this if we take if we put slave takes slavery off the table no one will vote for the government it will fail so we we're gonna go for it and then 80 years later there's the civil war don't want to part from the inside we're still fighting that battle today we allow some people to say I'm better than you I'm gonna I'm gonna rule over you you are subservient to me that can't be an organizing principle for human activity on the planet it does not work it's been proven not to work and yet it remains as part of our consciousness as part of our our struggle and how do we get past that and you know the thing is the gnostic move um getting up above and saying oh we're all one can't we see we're all one that's the gnostic move it works great if you're looking at things from above but when you're down the ground know it looks different you know you're over there and I'm over here we're in different bodies we're not one tell me how you're one with Hitler tell me how you want to pull pot tell me how you're one with with Stalin then we can talk about being all one so the all one thing doesn't it's a spiritual bypass that does not work what it works on the ground to bring people together even when they don't like each other and the only thing I know of comes out of matron is saying that love which is legitimizing the other no matter how they arise in your experience legitimizing their right to exist is the only emotion that expands intelligence in a social system so we have to love each other this may have to like each other we have to at least acknowledge that you all have the right to exist and then if we say that now how do we negotiate and there may be some people who are going to be like okay that tribe on the indian islands where we just let them um let them be that that stupid a couple years ago um evangelical who paddled out there in a canoe and was immediately killed like those people they need to be left alone that's that's how they get along and we don't you know we're not going to mess with that but they're not a threat to us we maintain some kind of of force to deal with threats and then we work on getting along I just tasted the matron a quote about love in the chat which may have gotten from your mention do you want to read it to us there is something peculiar about human beings we are loving animals I know we will kill each other and do all those horrible things I have to scroll in on this my eyes are not so good but if you look at any story of corporate transformation where everything begins to go well innovations appear people are happy to be there you will see that it's a story of love most problems and companies are not solved through competition nor through fighting not through authority they're solved through the only emotion that expands intelligent behavior they're solved through the only emotion that expands creativity as this is in this emotion there is freedom for creativity this emotion is love love expands intelligence love enables creativity love returns autonomy and as it returns autonomy it returns responsibility and the experience of freedom thank you Jerry yeah lovely quote beautiful I used to love much around his statement that that compassion and love are in human biology you know because of oppositional thumb joints we have the capacity to caress and there's not that many animals other other creatures that have that capacity to caress to caress they have hoofs and paws and nails and you know claws and stuff like that I always thought that was an interesting um matter primates and that's part of Tamson's book on teeming that humans are 98% chimp and so that's where all the Machiavellian you know the politics and hierarchy comes in but we're also a 2% hive you know we can act like ants or termites or bees and when those two things get coupled together you get a super organism capable of organizing on behalf of the whole at every level where everyone knows what I'm doing right now is serving the larger good and as soon as that gets lost I think that's what we get into trouble I think something that Wendy said prompted this for me and a hope of what's coming in the next two episodes um I feel like one thing that we all need is to reframe what working on climate change is that there's there's things that we should do less of and we should do more of you know it's known that eating eating less meat has a positive impact um flying less has a positive impact but those are all like tractable measurable I do it or I don't do it and to me if we look at this through the lens of our awareness our creativity our awakeness all different ways of saying the same thing we need more of this love and so if you have children and you're loving your children well you're doing climate work if you're a manager at work and you're taking care of your people you're doing climate work especially if you're fighting inequities because so many people are in a state of deprivation and fear and long-term trauma that they cannot possibly contribute very much because they're in a survival mode so anyone who's doing work of balancing out inequities you are doing climate work all of this contributes and it's it's like the we need direct action but we need so much more than that so I hope there's a reframe I have a meme somewhere in my library of a small child pushing against the belly of a sumo and the small child is labeled individual action on climate change and the sumo is labeled the 100 companies most responsible for pollution and climate change right so I love individual action because it makes me feel that I have some agency but man I'm also aware that the deck is stacked against us it requires such a huge amount of coordination to to get those people together to actually make a change with with that and it's there as Jerry pointed out at the beginning there are vested interests I mean Exxon knew in the 60s their internal research showed if we keep burning fossil fuels we're going to destabilize the climate and what did they do they buried that right oh well we that would mean we won't make our billions of dollars huh if billions of dollars versus death of the planet hey put the good into my pocket I don't care about the planet right so that's a where's the the leverage point to stand on that um and and move the earth you know Stacy how you doing I'm doing fine I'm just thinking like I mean I'm in my child's mind and I'm thinking that well number one how do we okay how do we give an opportunity to people who are doing wrong an opportunity to do something right that's the first thing that comes to mind um and then I'm thinking about farming and I'm thinking about food and I'm thinking about you know the different things that we think about like in terms of like industrialized farming and in time in as far as putting like limits on things I don't think limits for big companies should be equivalent to limits for smaller people like I you know and I don't understand why we always have like one one fix or the other because it's not fair and um I was thinking you know if it were so not I can't think of the word so uncomfortable to have big industrialized farms if it was so expensive to be so big what would what what changes would happen and as far as you know a lot of people they may not think in terms or maybe in the past a lot of people didn't think about like their health when they ate McDonald's but now with the pandemic and especially people who are anti-vaxxers they do care about the immune system and if we could join together on something like that healthier food in a way that frame things differently for different people is basically what I'm trying to say and we don't do that instead we just flip off oh they think like that I can't deal with them so it's a little frustrated frustrating because to me it's about the journey and it's not about you know we get there and then we can do it no we can do it in our little circles we're not going to be able to do it as things scale so like in my when I think of my community I'm not going to get along with everybody in my community but I could definitely see relying more on the community gardens here or working on the local food system here as a starting point because I mean I don't know what to say it's just so many pieces and to keep trying to make it like we could follow one straight line it doesn't work like that you know that's where I am thanks for asking I love the love that idea of giving people a chance to have done wrong to switch and the first thing that came to mind was any company that's done serious harm to the environment what if we offered them if you change your practices now we will protect you from all future lawsuits from this point forward I mean that what an opportunity that would be because you know a lot of these companies just like tobacco did a lot of these companies are just they're they're going to confront this at some point and it's probably not too far in the future it's a great idea as was pointed out by the fact that insurance companies are are recognizing we can't ensure for fire anymore by the way I found I was studying climate right uh seal of rice here in the bay area and I learned that all flood insurance is underwritten by FEMA and do you know what FEMA's cap on flood insurance is $250,000 so if you own a house on Belvedere island your garage one part of your garage is $250,000 your house goes you're not going to get shit for your insurance right so um as we recognize we can't ensure for floods anymore we can't sure for fire uh acts of god are going to come under climate change is going to be classified as a lot of acts of god right oh it may be man made but it's actually nature so we don't want to ensure for that that's a huge leverage point right there of of how can of how we can start to use businesses and markets to shift things and I really like the idea that you just floated Todd it's sort of like a truth and reconciliation of we all we're not you're not fooling anybody we know this is going on but if you cop to it now and you stand up and start to change your practices you'll be spared but if you don't you're going to really pay for the for it unmute Jerry thank you um two things one is I've had a thought for quite a while what if we use truth and reconciliation for relations between communities and companies or to address racism and uh there was also a thought later about that but but I think a lot of companies a lot of organizations have skeletons in the closet and they can't be honest like if they were honest and worse we are in the vigilante era where the answer to malfeasance is off with their heads and salt the earth where they used to stand it's not hey you did bad let's figure out how to mainstream you back in the society so as long as we have vigilante justice and savage justice uh without sort of actually deepening and opening and and sitting with things that's going to be really hard and trcs which are not perfect are actually really interesting that way and then the second thing I wanted to add was an open question I have about reinsurance and I have a I have a an amateur answer to it my question is why the hell aren't the major like swiss free uh munich re etc there's some huge reinsurance corporations that are like big big why are they not completely up our noses about climate change aren't they supposed to be the long term insurers like don't they see that they're they're like everything is just falling apart the answer I believe is that their contracts are renegotiated annually and their premiums and profits go up as the insurance risks go up I think I could be wrong about this I'd love to be fact checked on it that would be a great intervention there was a complete there's a complete conflicting uh uh you know objectives or whatever it's called a problem in that industry yeah what you mean it's the same in the healthcare industry makes more money when people are sick right right so first do it go ahead no no I was going to say a few years ago when when the new york city subway uh flooded I forget what storm it was sandy yeah but they brought in a bunch of consultants um from the Netherlands um and and the consultant said you're never going to figure out how to do this you're just acting stupid just stop just stop building in flood zones it's a very simple solution just stop building in flood zones period and the story and that's just it's just it's just going to get worse um but what I'm what I'm hearing a little bit of is that um and I love that the that truth and reconciliation came up because we need to make massive changes and we need to have truth and reconciliation surrounding all of those massive changes whatever kind of edicts that they were you know and and and maybe some large percentage of population will actually say okay we need to change okay we need to change but but the the the huge programs that this will all require it just they're almost unfathomable in some some sense and yet it's the only way out otherwise we're going to just have um chaos and dystopia and just one last thought Stacy I'm with you I want to go to Catskills that's all that's all that's all just going to go to the Catskills I keep looking for bungalow colonies for sale so we have about five and I saw that was outside the flood zones and outside I took no fine a lot of them were turned into spiritual centers you know and in the Catskills yeah um we have about five minutes left before we wrap our call I would just want to thank you for a really rich conversation which I knew was going to happen given the people on the call um any thoughts any closing thoughts as we're wrapping up um you can like what would you like to see uh in the next couple episodes from the weekend they will be asking us for feedback so if you've got specific things just jot them down and then when we're all done we can we can send a joint um letter to Fred and and Helene and say you know we really appreciate this I think this could be tweaked you know I'd like to see this blah blah blah so I get you know everybody on this call has thought about this subject um in depth it's it's been in in consciousness and what I would love to see um and I don't really have hope for it but I'm willing to be surprised is some some real global path a real global path not a not a polyanna global path but a real global path addressing you know the vectors that that that we've talked about today that's my hope I'm connected thank you Stuart I'm connected to uh experiment in the state of California to pay citizens to join healing circles community healing circles and if we have to pay people to have an experience that might shake them up open them up in some way if that's what we have to do these days that I'm open to that great great what a what a what a wonderful vehicle for wealth transfer um it's everyone okay with my posting this recording as I usually do to YouTube openly and like that sure sure yeah then we can sure then we can refer to it point other people to it whatever I just put the link to my brain notes there I've just I've been curating during great so whatever things I mentioned are connected and lots of things you mentioned are quoted are connected um and Jerry would you send it to um Mila so she has a chance to catch up if she wants to because she did email and say she's in the country and didn't have any wi-fi so she'll be with us tomorrow um I'm actually debriefing with Matt my experience finally uh two months later after he completed with the uh with the financial services project so that's at 9 30 we're scheduled to run 45 minutes but if we wrap um in half an hour I will be on the call in time otherwise it might be 10 15 minutes late but I will be here um so uh yeah yeah you were you were saying feedback and thoughts about the next couple videos um feedback I really appreciated what you were saying earlier about the u shape I think it was Todd that brought it up right I can't remember and maybe can be yeah so um I you know I would love to see it maybe shift into a spiral right or something like that um so that it so that it acknowledges the fact that we will revisit these same phases over and over and over and over and over again um and that it's an evolution of you know of understanding and appreciation and application and stuff so so this morning I followed a link that went to twitter where there was a video of a piece of art that looks like a bird a fluffy bird from this perspective and then it's one of those pieces of art that when you look at it this way it turns out to be made of found objects from the trash and toys and whatever of the right color in the right place so that when you see them this way it looks it looks like an oriole right and it was it's beautiful and so forth and I spent a little bit of time trying to figure out what do you call that kind of art where it shifts where it's like hey it looks like Albert Einstein but no it's a bicycle seat and whatever it strikes me that a series of a series of reinforcing waves that build and that echo might look like a you seen from and on and that if you took theory you and stretched it sideways it might turn into a resonant set of waves that are being pumped and moved for a larger scale social change and that theory you may not be a one-shot deal but might be a repetitive cycle we need to do with more people with more questions with all those kinds of things I'm going to share my screen real quick this is actually from sustainable Sonoma I think maybe who knows him Jeff um what's Jeff's last name Jeff Akin was part of this so this is the transformation cycle which it can be seen as either a circle or a spiral where you know we start up around 11 o'clock we have order everything is great and then at midnight chaos strikes right and then we go into grief anger denial sadness despair letting go additional feelings and then there's that void you have to sit with the emptiness sit with the void for the breakthrough move into wonder imagination vision empowerment action and if you look at this most consultants love to work from 6 a.m to midnight they hate to work from midnight to 6 a.m right because nobody wants to be in the grief in the anger and I own the sadness and yet the dark this is often referred to as darkness darkness is incredibly fruitful Joan Halifax has been called the fruitful darkness you know and we need to be granting legitimacy and exploring the dark side don't be afraid of the dark the dark has light within it um there's tremendous creativity and generativity in there so um I just thought I would share that yeah I yeah Ken I mean that's great I I couldn't agree more that you know everything when we resist going around the wheel right like the medicine is this the hero's journey is this the you know there's a there's a lot of cyclical the cycles of nature are this right like I think um no matter how people come find their way to understanding a cyclical nature of of of decomposition and emergence um or the creative process or you know whatever I think all these things kind of follow the same trajectories um then you know people I think wake up to these same things that we were talking about needing to wake up to how we're all connected how it keeps going in cycles how it's more about the journey right and all the lessons that are that are gained from from that kind of thing um so I think that their as feedback of them making some semblance of a reference to that it doesn't have in my mind it doesn't have to be one particular system or or or approach but just the fact that it's a cyclical nature along the lines of the way they beautifully um emphasized how emotional this is right and that we're going to go there um is you know along those same vein that would be my my feedback and um I'm hoping I think I already said at the beginning but I'm kind of hoping that the next two um start shifting us into some solutions and and I'm getting uh and I'm getting you know rock and roll saw in the darkest hours before just before dawn each night before you go to bed my baby anyway nice good to see you all thank you I'll see you tomorrow um enjoy the rest of your day remember you can play these things that faster than normal time and it makes it go quicker thank you I actually do 1.75 with subtitles and I get wow because the subtitles make sure I don't if I don't miss stuff so that's astonishing I want to I'm going to give that a whirl okay yeah thanks thank you see you tomorrow see you tomorrow bye thanks Jerry thanks for recording thank you