 start on time. Good morning, everyone. This is the Friday, January 21st. If I've got my date meeting of the elementary school building committee, and I see we have a quorum. So I want to do the first order business, which is to make sure all the members of the committee can hear and be heard. And as people can see, we also have Dinesco design team members participating with us and our owner project manager, Margaret Wood, from Answers. But I'm just going to call out the names of the committee members. And I'm doing it in the order on my screen so I can keep watching faces so it won't be necessarily an alphabetical or other logical order. Paul? Present. Tammy? Present. Mike? Present. Sean? Present. Jonathan? Present. Rupert? I read you loud and clear. Great. Phoebe? Present. And Ben? Present. Okay, we have a few people, Melisha has not signed in, but we have a quorum, so we will be starting the meeting. I want to see whether I can share my screen unless Margaret has the agenda already up just because we have a packed agenda. I just want to remind people what we're going to try to get through today. And for any participants that don't have it in front of them, let me just see whether I can efficiently do this. Margaret, unless you can pull it up, I asked you for the other ones. Let me just see how I, of course, that's probably the one I can't, let's see, let's see whether this is it. No, that's the, can you pull it up for me, Margaret? Yeah, give me just a minute. I've got to get to the town's website to pull it up. Okay. I also said you do have it. Okay. I have what you said this morning. Is that what you want to pull up? No, what I said, I want the agenda for today. Let me just, not the, okay, wait a minute, I should be, I'm sorry. I sent it all to everyone and it is on the, sorry, the first order of business while Margaret searches for it. I'm just, I've got everything open except the agenda. So I'm not sure quite where I find it. Okay. The first thing we're going to be going through today and where the bulk of the meeting will be focused is the priorities. Can everyone see this? If Margaret makes it a little harder. So the first main is the evaluation criteria that was first sent to us in December and we had a quick discussion of it. I received some comments and some questions of definitions and what I hope to do today as Margaret will pull it up later, but get to some final version because Dinesco will be wanting to use the priority and evaluation criteria in public meetings so that we get to a comfort level with it. Then we'll get a brief report on the education plan visioning session. One has been held and another is planned and we do have a community forum planned for February 3rd and we have flyers for both and I'll say, we can say a bit more about that. Jonathan, I'm going to recruit you to say a few words on the net zero meeting, which the subcommittee meeting, which was extremely well attended and appreciated by the community because we had the Dinesco technical people there and they it was an interactive discussion. Then we have a timeline for the whole project, but we also have a schedule for the committee meetings and just to briefly review that, Phoebe and I have been working with a subgroup on outreach and Margaret's been working on outreach and I'll just say a few words of where that is. So that is today's meeting and it's a packed agenda. So what I'm going to try, we'll try to do is to try to keep us on time, but Elisha needs, okay, thanks Mike. Mike is saying Elisha is here but in the audience. Elisha's in. Oh, you got her in? Okay, thank you. Okay, so I think we can take down the screen Margaret and just the next one that we're going to be doing, I just want to make sure I welcome Elisha. Elisha Walker has joined us. Elisha, I want to make sure that you can hear and be heard. Elisha is a member of the committee. Hello everyone. Can everyone hear me? I can hear everyone. Thank you. Yes, that's great. Okay, Elisha, I just, I took down the agenda, but what we're going to be starting on is the priority and criteria list and what Margaret's going to be showing on the screen is I received comments, suggestions from a few people and I had some of my own and many of the comments were what exactly is this, you know, you know, tell us more about what is in this element. So it wasn't take it all, delete it. So it was a clarification. There were a few suggestions of a potential delete move or add. So Margaret, if you could pull that up, what I'd like to do is Donna say a few words about how you're going to use this and then we can just go through it line by line to get comments on it. The committee has also seen this a few times and I personally think it's a great list. So it's more that we want to go through it. Are you ready to pull it up? Kathy, can I just ask one quick question? I'll take my hand down. Okay. The meetings, would it be helpful to people if I send out invites for these meeting dates so that you have something in your calendar? Zoom doesn't typically generate those. I'm happy to do it if it's helpful. I have them in my own calendar. Margaret, once we get approval of this schedule, I will be working with Angela Paul staff when we can go ahead and book all of them so that you would get a meeting invite on them, but with a general piece and I will be posting this up on the website as well. So it would be better if those invites come out of the because so I will just talk about that but getting it on everyone's calendar. The one thing that you won't be seeing is meetings that are not being sponsored by the school, the building committee, such as the educational workshops. Those people will have to enter. So Donna, I'm going to turn this over to you and then as and then we can just go through the list and people can add comments, ask questions, and we can see whether we can do it fairly efficiently. But just an overview on how you're going to use these would be good. Perfect. Thank you. So the purpose of this is really to have and a list of priorities that is important to you as a community, which will help with the criteria that's below to objectively look at each and every option that we have to look at. Some of the options are probably going to be non-starters but we have to go through some of them for MSBA's benefit and what we've agreed to with MSBA. But what we did is we put together this list, both the priorities which we took Kathy from conversations with you all and also the SOI and understanding what has been already out there. So comments on these is fabulous. Any input we want to change anything, whether it's a priority or the criteria is great. So what the other thing that we haven't come to, I guess I shouldn't say terms, but an understanding is how we're going to rate the criteria. So maybe what we can do is we'll go through the list quickly and then spend a couple of minutes on how we want to evaluate and rank each of the options as it relates to the criteria. So I understand that what we're not seeing is the complicated spreadsheet where across the top are the two sites that we'll be building on. That's what these are going to be compared to, correct? Right now you can expand it but that we might be getting into the weeds on that. But what we'll be looking at are, I think right now we have seven concepts and some of them are just Fort River alone and that's part of the MSBA requirements. But once we get the priorities and evaluation criteria, we'll then have options to base those on and each one of these will be based on right now kind of sketches or concepts for each of the options. So you will have building kind of layouts and positioning on the sites is what you'll be looking at right now as we look at the PDP submission to MSBA. So if we want to just quickly go through the priorities, again these were defined based on the SOI and I think the RFS and information that we've received. So happy to go through and clarify, add, delete, whatever we want to do. So going off of the comments, which thank you very much for all of you for providing input in advance, the transit impacts and maybe this is someone from the town side that could elaborate a little bit more on this. Our understanding is, I don't know if the priority is to minimize busing but how does each option relate to the transit or busing of students? So it might not be minimize but it's the transit impacts. But I'll allow you all to weigh in on that because this was definitely our question was how do we define equity? And so this is more of a conversation to hear from you all what you feel equity really means. So I don't know if anyone wants to weigh in. So can I just chime in here and say this transit impacts, this is goes way back to a list I made initially where I was trying to think about what might be considered equity impacts. So this came from me, it didn't come from a committee member and perhaps it doesn't belong here. There is an issue that I think has gotten a little bit confusing in the process that the there may be changes in the way students are assigned to these schools as a result. And it isn't something that we're going to actually know because the population is going to change, there are going to be other shifts over the course of the project. So this may be inappropriate but I listed it there as these three items, the sped pathway is transit impacts and redistricting or sort of me thinking out loud because they came from me they perhaps don't belong here at all and the committee will have other things here for the community that help evaluate equity relative to these options. Sorry, thank you Margaret. So I'm just going to wait you know including Tammy and Mike if you want to weigh in on this. I mean this is we can remove reword expand or delete this level because when you get when we get down below these will still be measured you know there will be a criteria that measures transit. Mike? You know personally and Tammy could disagree and that's great. I think it's fine as is you know because I think most of the transit impact on the school side are really about entry exit procedures you know like right now as Tammy lives every day we have a lot more families driving their children to school so you know even just where the buses loop is and all that is shifted because of COVID so it's been a good realization for us that you know we really want to make sure that we have a thoughtful approach. The town may have thoughts about you know the green part of it and how long buses we're all supportive of that but from our end it's really about safety and security as being the primary implications of it you know I think the schools you know they're not very far apart the two sites I don't know two miles one stoplight you know so you know I don't want to minimize the difference but we're not talking about one being on the north end of town another being five miles away and cross town and driving through town so again you know I think there may be very well community and town impacts of the transit that I really would trust the planning department in the town and community to weigh in on for us it's really around we have a number of buses we also have a number of vans because of the specialized programs that would be located at this new school and being very thoughtful on our approach about entry exit and transition for our students but Tammy I don't know if you have other thoughts on that one but that's where my mind goes when I think of transit impacts and equity is making sure that our students have safe entries and smooth entries to school not just around physical safety but also just you know if you take a van you shouldn't be walking then halfway around the school to get to your classroom right like that's that's the kind of things that I think about because they're very much day to day but Tammy you know I'm welcome to if you want to weigh in well thank you Mike um no I think what you said is is really spot on I really do think it's you know safety and security and having the opportunity for students to get off at the the front of the school as needed especially in inclement weather as well as an area for parents to drop off which which is separate than the buses because that can get a little dicey at times. Mike you didn't talk about redistricting impacts so I don't know if that's something that you can address because I feel like that's a broader topic than I can comment on but I do think that it is a priority. Yeah if I could jump in thank you Tammy for for that sorry I should lower my hand. I think until we make a decision of which model we're going with it's really hard to jump in with what the implications are because they both have implications but right now we're not there you know we will have two enrollment options to consider and so you know I want to be really cautious about going further because I don't want to look like there's an option that's been chosen until it's actually been chosen but but I think you're the broader category of of how that works you know particularly if we look at the going to two schools in the district there will be relative to 2010 redistricting a minor redistricting um minor not being the impact on individuals who are redistricted minor being referencing the number of students of the quantity of percentage of students be redistricted but I think being really thoughtful about that and working with our transportation department and also recognizing the equity implications Tammy is absolutely right that's that'll be that that'll be important it's just not something that we have enough data right now to be able to share anything helpful with. Okay Margaret you can remove priority to minimize you can remove that comment then um I want to make sure we can get through this. Yeah so the next one um the next one and this is again an outside set of questions of some people who looked at it when the word future expansion of flexibility there there's just total agreement on flexibility the question was for this particular project are we it will be measured later on in criteria is it a priority that this be designed so it can be expanded or should we remove the expansion part from the priority that was the question that was raised not the flexibility part so should we change the priority as flexibility um rather than a high level expansion and I'm just asking that as a question and this was re viewers because later on many of these get repeated under criteria Jonathan to me I would leave expansion there I mean we may not conceive of a time or a need for it um but uh as as we know from the schools that we have things can change and populations can change so unless it negatively impacts something else I would opt to leave it personally. Okay and you know again if there's agreement on it Mike if you're in agreement we can remove the comment and and leave the wording. My only comment was really for the design team mind and the OPM my understanding is that it's a requirement of MSP to build that in that that you have to show where expansion could be so I'm not saying it's not a priority I just don't know if this is something that's mandated anyway why you know well I think Mike this is more um as you start looking at the options how how does expansion work with one of the options right so it's under it's under criteria right right okay yeah I think it might just be make that perhaps I'm reading it right now I just might make that more clear because I think some people might say one option doesn't have the ability to expand and my understanding is that that we can't provide an option that doesn't have the ability to expand so uh we we can provide it the ultimate solution has to have have to have to have it but but as we weigh and look at the options one option might not work that's helpful thank you okay okay so we could remove the comment because it as everyone will see that when we get to criteria um so the on the net zero capacity um one of the things I put this comment and and Jonathan was at the meeting there was a discussion of whether we should as a committee set a target for um something called energy use intensity so this was just a question um and I it may be that it's more on criteria later Donna um because it affects costs so well you could you could reword it counting if you want to say how well this is an option respond to the town bylaws or you know make it you know um because the there's more to net zero than just the EUI and so I feel that again you know as we look at the options this is all going to be as we look at the options so you can almost insert that at the end of each one of these so how does each option meet the criteria of the town for net zero okay so we can remove that and then we'll just reword it to be clearer Kathy see Alicia's hand up yeah Alicia you and sorry I am multi tasking because I do have two of my kids home waiting for COVID tests so I apologize but I am still a little bit confused and so I want to bring us back for a second um in terms of one I'm still not clear on to how exactly we're going to be using this document so I think it's a great document for us to talk about get our ideas together our expectations and our priorities but will we be looking at this as like a rating scale when we're looking at the options like how closely does each option meet this and are we going to be like a one to five or something like that or are we just saying these are the things we want to make sure not to miss but that would be in almost every option anyways so how well are these things compliant to what's listed here um and then also for that for the equity piece I'm not sure if we defined what equity is I think we identified some things that could happen and can be considered under an equity piece but like what are we considering as the actual definition of equity because busting and redistricting are pieces but that's not what equity is and then also in terms of things like like the net zero and like the construction costs I still am wondering is there a target that we're looking at like are we trying to keep construction costs as low as possible do we have a specific number like what is the goal there and I think even if we take out EUI I'm still wondering for net zero the same way how will we be measuring that and like what are we looking for so thank you Alicia yes so it is two things you identify what your priorities are right what's most important to the community and we again we'll be looking at seven options at least for now and you need to in the criteria that's below the priorities are going to be measured for each of the options and the criteria should relate to the priorities up above so this is I know we're not going to get through all of this today but we do want to create a measurement whether it's not good bad and excellent or we need a rating system and that is one thing that we wanted to talk about today you know we can go a very simple rating system but we want to rate each of the criteria for each of the options as it relates to the priorities up above and so the criteria or the priorities are going to inform the criteria and how best to rate them for each of the options so does that help answer that question yes and so I think my follow-up is just so is that what we're trying to determine right now yes so what we wanted to do is get the list I understand what the priorities are make sure that they're clear and that they meet the community's priorities and why are we here today right and then the criteria down below we want to refine those to make sure if if something's redundant get rid of it we don't we're not looking to have a list a mile long we just want to make it so that each criteria can be weighed objectively for each option based on the priorities okay thank you that is helpful db just a follow-up question to that seven options seems like a lot right so will we have the opportunity to come back to priorities after that is narrowed down because I think based on options not necessarily that our priorities change because it's all based on you know criteria and everything else but I think that there could be a shift in how we look at all of these different things for instance what a specific site or or a specific building configuration looks like when we're thinking of what our definition of equity is or what you know construction costs look like those kinds of things so does this do we have the option to sort of revisit this after we have that narrow down list or have you chosen you know select one or two we you can modify the list but but ideally the priorities that we're defining now is going to help inform which which option is the best option that meets these priorities the seven options we agree some of them are just mandated by MSBA such as what is a renovation of the existing building but we just have to and we know that really ultimately isn't going to make the make the cut but but we have to evaluate it so so there we have seven options because we have two sites and then we also have MSBA's requirements but ideally you set your priorities and you know ultimately your the preferred solution will achieve and meet these priorities so so there are going to be some options that are just going to come off the table I think the and again same thing with the criteria as we go down you know it's our job collectively to make sure that the ultimate solution meets the criteria and the priorities so I don't think you necessarily want to modify them you just want to measure the options as it relates to your priorities and and in the real world as we all know there will be compromises you might not nail every single one of these but you want to get as close as possible to meeting all of your priorities for the ultimate solution does that help okay thanks donna um the other the um other comments just before we move off priority list of criteria is the question of is the construction impact on a butter a high level is this a top priority or not it wasn't a question of not wanting to look at it um and then the future the same kind of question on the future use of the building that we're not addressing that you can think of would you pick um the building that's in better shape you might want to leave standing or would you think of it as what else are we going to use is this a top priority for consideration or is it one of the criteria that would be used as we're looking down those are all the questions they were questions about do we want this on the list it was whether this is a top level priority yeah I agree and Kathy I would say construction impact on a butters could just be a criteria I don't I don't think that it necessarily needs to be a priority okay of course we want to be sensitive to our neighbors and different options are are going to demonstrate a better neighbor than others and that could just go to criteria and then and then same thing for the future use of building you know is the best solution for the school right is is the use of the I hate to say the word abandoned but not use building um again that could just be a criteria okay and then the only other comment was down below we do emphasize space for outdoor learning and play at least initially I heard that I heard that in the listening sessions on the so is that a high level priority again it's down in the criteria so these were these were comments that no helpful and and we could under educational program we could just include right how well does the ideal education fit with Renault so including um space for outdoor learning like that's great okay okay so if everyone's okay I see Alicia's hand is up I want to make sure we get to criteria also Alicia uh sorry I just have one more point just to go off of what Phoebe said because I'm thinking more about the reevaluation afterwards and not that it would need to be in the same exact format but thinking about things like if we were to make a certain decision and we're looking at the other school or Crocker farm and we're thinking about equity like we're going to have to look at that differently once we select an option and what that's going to mean especially in terms of things like redistricting and busing that can't be actually figured out until after we have a selection chosen um so I think that it might be important to go back after we narrow it down with like a more refined set of expectations but with that comment I'm okay with moving forward also thank you Kathy okay so what people are going to see and Donna can focus through these but um there are fewer comments on these and many of the criteria just take from priorities now they're in a criteria that that there's going to be an evaluation across the different potential options and so some of Donna I got some written comments just on a over time people weren't sure how you're going to measure some of these you know what the metrics are going to be but there wasn't a disagreement with these as criteria no that's great so just for clarification purposes under education um first we have the educational program right that that will be developed and refined and then we'll have MSBA space summary which will identify the size of the spaces and then we also want to talk about as part of the educational program your spatial relationships and adjacencies and what works best for the programs and how they interact with each other time on learning etc so once we have the educational program and MSBA's criteria or space summaries we'll be using those as we talk about sizes spaces so for example if we're just doing a renovation um it's it's a little unique because you have large buildings but um maybe the cafeteria doesn't meet the criteria of of the size of the space that MSBA's guidelines recommend right so yes all sizes of all program spaces would be included flexible small groups same thing right maybe you only get 100 square foot instead of maybe the needed 250 square foot for flexible small groups so yes that would be included and then common aunties is a very important component in the educational program so this would absolutely be included in the configuration and adjacency of teaching spaces the pedagogy flexibility really what that means is just making sure as we've all learned open classroom ideas from the 70s might not be where we want to be today and who's to say that that might not change in 20 years not saying we're ever going to go back to open classroom lesson learned right don't don't look back but you know reflecting back we just want to make sure that we have built in flexibility for the changes in which education is delivered and I see ellison's hand is up yeah hi thank you the MSBA space considerations was this uh designed before uh the pandemic because the space needs after the pandemic which feels like something that might kind of impact us going forward in different capacities has been really different so i'm wondering what are the space guidelines that we're following MSBA has not modified their guidelines and we've had multiple conversations with them with as you can imagine many districts that have started the process are in the process since 2020 the goal is you know if we can demonstrate we might need a little more space and it is demonstrated through the educational program MSBA will support it it really is going to be about the flexibility how how a classroom might be able to be enlarged due to situations like this but MSBA has not modified their guidelines and so I would just want us to keep in mind that small group spaces also have to accommodate accommodate those expectations of shifting if there is a pandemic concern not just classrooms yes and and MSBA doesn't necessarily have a square footage associated with small groups so that can be defined through us through the ed program in our space summary with MSBA thank you Tammy thank you um I just want to bear in mind too that um aside from coming on tays which you know could would mandate a particular a typical like teaching space however that's designed I also think it's important to consider the three district programs for our students that have special needs in terms of you know I don't know what the MS all your call letters whatever um MSCB whatever um are around that and a particular note and I don't know if this is the place to say it something like drywall in that classroom is not going to be going to be worthwhile um but I do think that it's something to really consider and think about in terms of design space because at least two of those three district programs are going to require um like a reflection room and I know that state has some mandates around that right now but at the same time it is something to consider that's separate of a small learning space yeah and that would require particular materials yep so so um the MSBA and DESI actually um DESI more so will be reading the educational program as it relates to your special educational programs and the goal is always to have them integrated the best that we can um when it's appropriate and so yes when we say optimize configuration adjacency of teaching spaces it's every program every space and if you have special requirements for a particular program there are some programs that we've had where integration and and the other within the other classrooms or grade levels is wasn't appropriate it just wasn't appropriate and MSBA supports that and DESI supports it DESI has to bless bless the special ed component of this project so um all of that will be taken into consideration as for the built environment Tamara such as um perhaps not drywall perhaps not pendant lights hanging from the ceilings nothing on the walls all of that will come out through the design which that those will be given once we establish the parameters of each of the programs so all of the educational evaluation criteria we will have a set size of all of the spaces and some some of your district wide programs may require more spaces or specialized spaces I love the word reflection room I love it it's better than a quiet room or some of the de-escalation rooms so that's wonderful all of so we will have a space summary identifying all of the program requirements the educational program will talk about the relationship spatial relationships and adjacency needs when we start looking at these criteria and weighing them against all of the options some options are just not going to be able to support your educational needs as well as others and and that's that's what we want we want to look at it objectively and say you know just keeping the existing building the way it is without making modifications isn't going to meet I'm making this up but isn't going to make meet your educational requirements and so you rate that one much less or rank it much less than you would would say a new school thank you but don I think that's really helpful and you know maybe at some point for the general public a few more words can be in there so we can just see special needs and stuff so we don't need to do it now so the people know that that goes into all of this so so yeah maybe we just want to make sure that we're clear it needs all educational programmatic needs or something right okay so go down to construction impacts so here here there were it was purely um definitional so a few words were added construction costs site construction costs and then I added an outside reviewer asked where was the site-related geology topography wetlands where is that and is that here or is it under site you know where are you going to put those findings so it wasn't uh does it belong here but it was looking at later on we have site and here we have construction um so so I'm just explaining what these comments are and I see that Mike's hand is up also um so um I didn't mean to I just was trying to explain what this ad is what the comment was where exactly are those things it wasn't so much put them here sure yeah yeah my two senses I think it should be in every place because I think it's going to drive a lot of decision-making right so there's a lot of variables that come from that that are going to affect all the things that are above and all the things that are below on this chart so um I know it's uh it could look repetitive but I I think you know I don't want to underestimate the impact of looking at uh kind of all the the construction and site costs that come with it because I think it really is a defining characteristic of the analysis um the equity piece all those pieces are going to be affected by what we learn about the sites so so as we go through these this list Margaret's cleaning it up a little bit I just want to touch on duration so it really it's a construction impact not necessarily I'll say it differently the duration impact was was meant and we can clarify it to be is it 24 months is it 18 months a renovation addition might take longer because you've got to move the children around because you don't have swing space so the duration impact to be weighed against each of the options should be based on duration how long is it going to take to do the construction for each of the options the cost of the duration is going to be built into the building construction cost right so so if the duration is 18 months I'm making this up for new construction but the duration's 24 months for a renovation addition just because you have to do it in phases will be will be reflected in the construction cost so the duration impact is really meant for duration not cost so it should it should say years it's a matter of time yes okay yes so it should just be time so Margaret just change it to time under duration Sean's hand is up yeah well we know estimated MSBA reimbursement rates for each of the options when we do this evaluation yes I know I know it could vary based on the option and based on the so when we evaluate something like building construction costs where we look at like net costs per student or net costs per square foot or something like that to to evaluate them against each other we can we can do it that way you can just look at the cost to the town okay right it's it will be up to you all Margaret right a lot of times towns don't necessarily don't necessarily care about the total cost they're more concerned about to the town so we can certainly take a look at that a renovation addition you know you'll receive additional reimbursement from the state depending on the level of renovation but the question then just be will become if if the cost to renovate and add to it still exceeds new construction that additional reimbursement still might not costing you more than if a new school right that makes sense and then one other quick question and it may be in the next section so so based on some of these options may result in cost savings operating cost savings is that what we were thinking with annual operating expenses in the next section yeah right okay all right thank you so so I think the last quote number five under construction impact site related to geology did was did was this added here it's in red so I'm so I this is the one Kathy was just asking about so I just basically wrapped it into this comment and I'm going to take it out okay so yeah I was asking whether it should go here or under site and Mike suggested to go two places because it will it's both it will be related to the cost um so that was just a succession um and and the only reason I put it as a separate one is to flag it you know someone literally looked at this list and said we have really big differences between these two sites including wetlands so it was to highlight the fact that yes of course this will be looked at um can I um can I just say I do have a question about whether wetlands per se is a cost impact it it's it's a it's a design impact on the site because it it you know we're really talking about for a river here where there's a where there was a wetland boundary it's not strictly speaking a cost issue so I would be tempted to leave a site related geology typography and take out wetland but just asking that asking that mostly of the design chain for yeah I think wetlands wetlands can infect uh stormwater mitigation approaches okay let's leave it and and it can also be a non-cost impact on just site usage just can't use the site because it's it's restricted so it really kind of belongs to both okay then we'll put it in both all right so that look okay to everybody and we'll keep going yep and the red here Donna on life cycle cost analysis because I didn't know what l l c c a was it's not that I added it it's just I added it it's a definition and then I thought you meant annual operating expenses so I put the word operating in um but I I wasn't quite sure so it's Sean's question on what you meant on number two yes thank you so um the life cycle cost analysis what we'll be doing is taking a look at the let's just say the mechanical systems right that's probably the largest or even even plumbing or water but we'll look at what the first cost is for a particular system and then how how much it costs for you to maintain it and operate it compared to another one some might have a a less expensive upfront cost but it might take it might cost you more to operate and replace it down the road it might be a shorter lifespan so that's what the life cycle cost analysis is um I see Jonathan I'll let him so my question I'm not sure that this would necessarily fall under number two but it could but this is one of the places where comparing the um renovation various renovation expansion um models versus a new building might show up with regard to the net zero compliance because under the bylaw we don't have you know renovation the renovation portions of a of a building don't necessarily have to comply with the bylaw so you might have costs I'm wondering if the cost would vary and show up here does that make sense for the net for the net zero right for the ones that don't fully have to for the options that don't fully have to meet the net zero so if we have a new building we have to fully meet the bylaw if we have a renovation expansion then the addition has to meet the bylaw but technically the renovation does not and so there might be you know our pv might cover only the for example the the electrical energy used for the addition versus the rest of the building yeah so you know Jonathan that raises a good point the life cycle cost analysis is really we didn't take into consideration the pvs and that typically this would be related to the systems just maintaining the system so somewhere we want to capture that metric and I'll be not here but yeah I'm just trying to think this through and I um your thoughts on this are helpful all of your thoughts are helpful on this um this really would be I'm just going to use an example because we want to be net zero if we go all electric and we're unable to let's just say we're looking at a vrf system as an all-electric system right it has a an initial first cost lower than say a chill beam system however the you know the it might cost a little bit more you need you need more energy to operate it as well as you're going to have to replace it sooner than what you would replace a chill beam system so that's what we really meant when we were looking at the life cycle cost analysis the the question really just becomes where do we want to put the pvs and we understand the bylaws to purchase them if possible right if if it meets 10 percent or less of of the project for construction costs so the question really is where do we want to put the that requirement as it relates to the options that we're looking at and and maybe it just goes into the construction cost and we weigh it that way because it's not necessarily an operational cost would there though be a potential operational costs I don't know if I I it's been a couple days since I've looked at this full list um for if we have to purchase additional power for the parts that weren't in an option that doesn't you know that has a renovation in it you know do we record that someplace because that that would be an ongoing cost yeah you're right I think I think if you look at it maybe a little differently but yeah so a renovation addition might not be as efficient as a new as a new construction so your overall square footage might be greater than a new than a new school so therefore you're going to have more power requirements and therefore you're going to have to purchase more solar does that make sense again I think so I think everyone just wants to ask when you're looking at these criteria finish the sentence as it relates to each of the options right so we're weighing these against the the options that we'll be looking at so I agree you can put the cost of solar here um but that might actually go under construction costs or or project costs more than it goes under operational costs so I see both Sean's hand up and and so I might recommend something slightly different so for annual operating expenses I could see us having subcategories or maybe it's just all rolled in there but I think busing could probably go under annual operating expenses because that I think that that's treated like an operating expense but that could be maybe a separate a separate line item I could see staffing being a cost there and I think getting a little bit to Jonathan's point maybe utilities could be a cost there because the most the net zero building assume I assume we're going to have no heating expenses or low heating expenses so we could maybe build in utility impacts under operating expenses and then I could also see it under life cycle in terms of the upfront cost of the of the system and then what the payback period is based on our our savings that might be one way to compare different options is what is the payback period so that a renovated school it might be much longer because the savings aren't as great yeah so under annual operating expenses I think we do want to these can be subcategories and I think that's what Margot's doing I don't think we want to get into the weeds too much Sean you might be our guy going forward where MSBA is going to be asking what the cost is to operate the building after it's completed to make sure that the town understands what it's going to cost to operate a building so we're going to have to be breaking those out down the road we're not necessarily going to do it for each of the options these might be more qualitative at this point than actual numbers right but I think annual operating expenses include busing staffing utilities you know what would it cost to operate a building right so the question just really becomes do we want to get into the weeds on that but but Margaret you changed the item one to utility cost and I still think you want to do a life cycle cost analysis because that's not necessarily utility you want to weigh the options I agree I also thought having life cycle and then do annual operating and have these be subcategories I think so we can reconfigure that but it's just to make it clear that these are all pieces of annual included in it yeah okay so Rupert you took you had your hand up but you took it down did you did you it get covered yes I'm also at Sean covered even better than what I was thinking okay and Rupert we look forward to working with you on all of this too right to get your input thank you so much you're the one you're the one who's gonna we're turning this building over to you Vivian's got her hand up too yeah so just quickly so solar purchase then would that fall under as a subcategory of the life cycle costs and I think we should also if it's still under consideration add the geopotential geothermal because that's a significant piece to assess for all these options well I think yeah it's a first cost not an operating cost true so I'm just kind of wondering where it goes because I think as we assess the the viability of it there is a life cycle analysis that we do for geothermal so I agree so I think I think with the life cycle we'll be looking at the system so if if we're going to do an all electric vrf system that's pretty straightforward right you have your upfront first cost and then your operating cost and replacement costs if we're going to do say a chill beam system which is going to require a ground source heat then then you would have to build in the cost of the geothermal into that into that system yeah does it make sense to add it as a separate line item under construction impact so that people see it well because not no so so here's the challenge right the system that we select assuming we can do achieve net zero in any way on either site that is going to be determined independent of so we're going to look at really are we going to do a geothermal system or are we going to do an all electric vrf system or or a combination thereof or something for hopefully any of the options it really is going to be the town's decision which is the best way you would like to achieve net zero so one option again answer finish the question building construction costs for each of these options what is the right we're weighing the cost of construction for renovation new construction a renovation addition so we're not using are we picking geothermal or vrf system we're comparing these against the options that I think has to be a separate conversation unless there is a site that there may be site consideration if if but is that I did how do you if I'm just hypothetically if geothermal isn't possible at wildwood I'm making it up but it is possible at fort river and the the preferred solution is a geothermal system over vrf system then maybe we have that is how you have to phrase it but but but if if both sites can do geothermal and vrf or different all electric solution the decision is that we're not comparing systems in this we're comparing the options in this so we would like to know before we get to this part what is the direction the town would like for to achieve their net zero so ideally we are comparing the same does basis of design for each one of these does does that make sense yeah I think you're Donna you're saying don't add it as a separate line it'll I don't think we can because because if you want to put it in there it would be a yes or no can geothermal but but we don't know that's the decision of the town right now right so we're we're taking these criteria and applying it against each of the options that we're developing we're not saying does it make sense to do geothermal versus an all electric vrf system we're not saying that here so can I just ask another question so I agree with I agree I guess my question is because people will ask where is that right does it belong in building construction costs or site construction costs I think it belongs in building construction costs because it's related to the operation of the building I'm just going to make a suggestion this seems to me a wording issue so let's just remove it as a level criteria and answer that um because I want to make sure we get through and I'm conscious of time yeah thank you Kathy and may I just suggest that the Jonathan we do something similar to this as we're looking at your net zero options I absolutely agree I think that's an excellent place I hope I didn't inadvertently call us out here you're helping us think it through this is what we wanted but but you know at that point hopefully the town will have decided we're going with a geothermal system because it can be supported on both sites so now what we're doing is we're weighing the option we're weighing this criteria based on the same basis of design for each of the options so Sean I saw your hand went up and then it went down so I didn't mean to yeah I know wording recommendation but if we're going to handle that offline I'll just like we can keep going great yeah I just like to get through it because I'm conscious of time I think this is great by the way we didn't have a chance to do this on January 5th so Margaret if you can scroll down I think we're getting near to the bottom of this yeah okay so the question on expansion was the same as above this is from an outside reviewer and I think you answered it Donna that that for MSBA purposes we have to at least consider this um and then the second I'm just explaining the questions is and then the question was is pre-k um and this is of Mike and Tamara is is pre-k in the potential future does this get left on the list so that was a question for this this building project so uh what I can answer is that the town and Sean has been involved with this are working with the um with folks in our preschool about potential options uh both zero to three and then potentially more um three to five year old seats um you know I think it's at its you know we've had two reports come through um but you know where the funding would be long-term funding is especially now that the federal federal program that was slated to increase preschool funding seems like it's not moving the way it looked like a couple months ago it would move it seemed like it was moving and that's a huge financial uh piece that uh you know all our folks who are knowledge from the preschool world suggested uh if it happened it would be a game changer um it's not clear that the game is changing uh on the financial side of how to afford uh such an expansion so you know it's a little hard to know exactly how that'll play out because I don't believe the town is going to be in a position to fund a massive expansion of our preschool program um or the schools and and that's why we're really relying on the federal government uh in their initial plan had a tremendous number of uh federal dollars going towards this so um you know I think it's without the federal support it's sort of receding uh not in terms of importance but in terms of practicality and feasibility um in my mind we do have a wonderful site for our preschool it was only built 20 years ago it was built specifically for the needs of young students and so um you know to me it's it's not that preschool in general is a priority but as part of this project um I think it's appropriately placed in future expansion and flexibility not in terms of a core principle of the project at the moment yeah I was I don't think it needs to go away because we don't know the future holds but you know we're I'll say for me I'm very disappointed that um that federal infusion doesn't seem like it's going to happen yeah that that is extremely disappointing Mike I agree I I agree I think maybe if you say building expansion enrollment growth you know you could say including potentially pre-k I don't think we want to call it out per se because who knows what the future's going to hold if we can expand the building it's it's going to go horizontal and verticals so we just can include that as part of the considerations as we're thinking about expansion so we'll leave we'll leave it down for the moment but Donna we were suggesting rolling it up to building expansion and she was going to she was going to move it up to the number one so Donna again this is kind of a word Margaret okay right Mike that's what you were suggesting right yeah okay and I think if you scroll down I think those with the um we probably should focus on net zero but there I think we're at the end of we have community as well so well it was a question of impact you know is there a cost is it a fence um this this was just um a qualifier kind and Jonathan I just wanted to make and Rupert do we have the pieces on net zero as criteria that we need um there weren't any didn't receive any comments on this this is you could put pd's on here as well right the question um as a related to that or the more and more I'm thinking about this Jonathan my head just keeps going back to the the net zero group and I just really think that we want to maybe offline you and the design team create a similar effort yeah so I think if we scroll down I think that's the end of this um yep yep do I just quickly address does construction impact on our butters does this include fence how assessed so the construction impact on a butters isn't necessarily are you getting a fence or not it it is more of as as an example um if the existing build if if the new construction is going to be 10 feet I know we have bylaws and zoning bylaws and stuff but but is it going to you know a 40 foot high building going to be up against a butter is that a good neighbor is it um oh that's the construction impact so construction impacts would be maybe go ahead bro we've had a couple examples where we've had a site with unsuitable soils that had to be activated trucked off and and and brought back on and that could be uh scores of 18 wheeler dump trucks driving through the neighborhood is that going to happen what's the construction route it's things like that another one might be yeah another one might be the drilling drilling of the geothermal system of the wells right how does that impact or everyone's can get very nervous about if they've already got what basements if the project's going to make them water so that some of the things that we hear Jonathan had his hand up you know a butters often also worry about you know lights bill over from parking lots um and just you know general generally changes can can engender concern from from the butters yeah so I think I think under sorry got the under construction impact it's really twofold um one is the potentially construction impact right the the temporary impact from construction but then but then there's also the overall impact on a butter some people say I can deal with construction but I don't want double the number of kids showing up in my neighborhood how is that I cannot be able to get out of my driveway right like sometimes the the effect of the construction is important okay that's helpful as I said these were just questions no no that's great and and happy to clarify because we know what we're talking about you can't read my mind though cat they put so um and then the future use of non-selective building um you know I leave it all to you to decide how that is an important consideration for this project I'll say that you're very fortunate to to be able to have that conversation and and that you're actually going to have extra space and and potentially an asset that you can reuse okay so we can just do this as a definition of this is the kind of thing you'd be thinking about um and the last two were um I think last two I said last two before was one one to know what a contextually sensitive design meant and when you say efficient attainment does that mean cost under number two yeah so so for contextually sensitive design would be how well does the design fit within the built within the site within the neighborhood as relates to the neighbors so it's contextually does the overall solution fit well within the neighborhood and and community okay and then I I think we want to reword um number two because basically I think we want to say allows if achieves towns net zero requirements or something forget about stretch code because you're going beyond stretch code um a green school that's an msba term right we can get rid of that so you know if if we're looking at this specifically as it relates to energy we can say net by uh net zero bylaws net zero bylaws if if it's related to the overall sustainability of a building as it as as it reflects lead or no england chips that too could be looked at but I think I think the intent here was from an energy perspective so net zero bylaw requirements I think is fine and then again there were some other aspects as it relates to natural light daylighting and you know we say meets ADA requirements efficiently we had this conversation in the office just real quick of course each option has to meet ADA or even more stringently the mass accessibility code requirements at aab however a renovation might not meet the code as efficiently as a new construction so I don't know if that necessarily needs to go here but it might help i would take this out because I think it makes people think that we're not and honestly the existing existing buildings are all on one floor there's not any complexity right we're fine go ahead take it out I think that's it in terms of things so what I would suggest is you work with this Donna to make sure the wording makes sense as we've done it and then this can be then used and I just want to look around the committee are we comfortable that we at least have enough of an understanding about this that this can be a working document and if you take it down then I can see everybody if anyone has a Margaret if you stop showing the screen maybe we can see okay so I'm just my suggestion would be that we get this back so we have it in our documents the way we've changed it and you've done whatever wordsmithing Sean can send in the words he had and we make it part of the packet that this the final and then you will have it as a working document for the community forum and for other for your use does and does everyone I guess the way I would say I can see nods ahead does anyone object to that approach no hands went up okay so I'm sorry my hand is up okay the the last part that we haven't gotten to and maybe we just are going to have to address it because we're out of time this week is I would like everyone we need to come up with a matrix Rubik's to now rank so do we want to use excellent good adequate okay and poor do we want to use a rating system like that do we want to rank it the you know good neutral unacceptable like we now need to as we look at the seven options evaluate each of the criteria do you want to put not all of them are dollar signs so I don't think we want to use you know inexpensive you know affordable and and not affordable or something so so we need a matrix or Rubik's to measure in the past we've used Rick help me out um on except or or neutral and well good or there's we used to refer to the matrix kind of like the consumer reports matrix where they had an icon you know a fully black circle was great an empty circle was poor and you could get things in in between and that's just a graphic thing um we've used uh you know red yellow green right you use color right I'm a really big fan of red yellow green because I think people don't need to understand the symbol okay so so those those are the so now we from a from a and they're could eventually get to be a points metric you know those of us that review contractors and submit decan evaluations you know from fair to excellent there's a one to five ranking and if you get to the point where somebody asks why is this the best option because it's scored the best eventually you might find a need to convert to numerical so I'm going to suggest um you know I I don't want to try to poll 12 people right now on the best way if you could feed us back three choices of the way and and just and maybe even do a picture with you know we have three things across the top or four things this is the way color would look I'm I come from a world with uh scales of five and that was when Alicia asked or useful because the very something if it really is superlative gets more points so I don't mind having the points behind something but um giving giving and then three becomes the neutral you know it's neither great nor not but if you could feed us back and I'll send it out to the committee and have people make choices you know and then we can we can we can maybe get to a conclusion does that sound like an approach to people that would work okay Margaret is your hand still up yeah I'll take it back sorry Mike's hand is up yep I just I know I have to department about eight minutes so I didn't know if there was anything that you needed me to weigh in on I mean the sooner is better but I can I can make it eight more minutes but I didn't know if there were other parts of the agenda Kathy that you wanted me to weigh in on so I'm going to suggest you know in in um we can we we meet again the what I think what we can do is we can move a few to the to next time we meet but I would like to just have Margaret pull up the meeting schedule um so people know they have it I sent it to everyone and this is just a visual Margaret not not for discussion so we we've agreed to meet on Fridays at 8 30 we will try to keep these meetings to an hour and a half um and so the schedule that was sent out so everyone knows it is an every other week schedule and I think in March we have two weeks in a row because we have to take a vote so we're going to be looking at a draft and then we have to vote so it's highlighted those um those meetings and Donna had inserted the community form that's coming up um we're sponsoring it so I want to make sure everyone knows and I will after this meeting I'm going to send everyone out the um the brochures the flyers they're terrific so instead of having a full discussion on net zero we can report on the planned outreach Phoebe is going to be working with the PGOs and I'll get you these flyers you know to try to get word out so this is a schedule that was sent to you if anyone has a problem with this I'd like to hear about it but otherwise it's it's got Fridays throughout and the one exception was Donna pointed out the May the week of the May 25th if we met on Friday it would be the Memorial Day weekend and people might prefer not meeting on a Friday just before a long weekend so that one was maybe we would meet another date we don't have to make that decision now but some of the others are critical so I wanted to make sure everyone's aware that you have this and if it's okay then I will post it up on our committee meeting site as a schedule some of our other so uh our public audience will know when we will be meeting next and we will add to this as other community forms are scheduled right now there's two scheduled but there will be more going through to June can I can I just say Donna I changed a bunch of these dates from what you had to kind of reset them around the school vacation to just make sure you said they're not the ones who originally sent but they are bi-weekly and that's where the Memorial Day weekend came up perfect yep whatever's final we'll just plug it in not a problem thank you so if anyone has a problem with it I don't want to spend a lot of time I just want to make sure that you have you know you have it in your packet so Mike I was going to ask you to report on the educational visioning workshops if you have if you want to take a minute to do that before we lose you or two minutes you could have two minutes but whatever whatever works sorry about that so yeah no we had uh one I thought really excellent workshop uh in the morning um we had a good group of attendees uh we talked about I think we got a lot of good feedback throughout the meeting as well as answer some questions uh less on the kind of building side but more on the education that which is great because we're talking about educational planning so I thought that was incredibly useful um we do have one planned for educators next week uh and we also have one planned uh evening uh meeting uh next week so we're getting really great feedback throughout uh and it's really nice to have multiple options for educators and the larger community to participate um you know I think there were some questions that we want to come back to around coming on this and how we want to design that in the building uh there was a lot of interest in outdoor learning space and uh how that could be integrated those are sort of like you know I'm trying to think back or what are some of the sort of hanging chads that we want to really make sure we come back to um because they didn't really get uh flushed out in the level of detail that we'd like in the meeting so I know we'll get great feedback uh at both of those upcoming meetings next week and continue to work on the drafting process with our you know David Steven and and Denisco but that's my quick summary but anyone else I know there was a number of people who were present at that so other people could certainly weigh in on on their perspective or their thoughts as well um I'll just weigh in quickly for any building committee members who did not attend you might consider doing if you can on the evening session because one of the one of the things that's happening with the educational program visioning there's some nice pictures that link you know you say this is a priority what might that look like so it starts to link the educational program to the what's in the building or what's outside the building I so I thought it was a good I liked and it has breakout rooms so I'm going to say one word about the community forum and then um see whether there are any other comments before I open it up for public comments but the community forum you will all as building committee members receive an invite a zoom invite to it it is on the February it's on February 3rd a Thursday night because we are sponsoring it you are not required to come to that so but I need to post it both as a community forum and as a building committee meeting because if a quorum shows up it becomes an official meeting of the building service so I'm just explaining to you that we're going to have it we're posting it in two different ways for purposes of the committee and it will be a Dinesco presentation on where they are now and the schedule what's the process what's happening with the program sites and buildings to the extent there's information about that and then they're going to be breakout sessions that small groups will rotate through the breakout sessions so this will be don't Jonathan had quite some time ago said this is for us to be listening as the building committee and it's the purpose is to hear from the community so I really encourage everybody and I'll send out this flyer tell as many people as you know and we're going to we have a small group on outreach working with the school committee to get the word out and it's going to be featured by the council on Monday night when the council meets so we're going to really try to feature the community forum as the first big launch at the community level of where we are what we're doing right now at milestones and the flyers are on the get involved page of the website okay as well as we're putting links on the landing page to both of them so okay so we'll send another a follow-up these are recently available and the other thing is there is now a draft or frequently asked ask questions thanks to Alice and McDonald work with me and I will send that out to you later but we're going to double check to make sure it works for Mike and we're going to put it up and that will be a flexible FAQ frequently because as we get further along the line we're going to have answers to some of the questions we post and we don't have answers to some of them now and other issues so we've received a lot of comments on it's a blank page so we're trying to populate it so any other before I open it up um Sean has raised his hand and are you going to tell me the invoices yes okay someone I forget so we do need to take a public vote at the committee level on the answer invoices so Sean will pull this up so this is the December invoice from answer so the total is $11,002.50 at some point we may want to talk about if we want to post these somewhere if anybody has questions they're always available if anybody ever wants to look at them well in the future they'll get more complicated when we start having construction invoices and things like that but yeah well and also we're submitting monthly reports to the MSBA which I think Sean is aware of and actually you see it reflected in this particular invoice because they're due to the MSBA on the 12th of each month um and those reports I maybe I'll circulate one a sample to this committee um we can certainly put them on the website they're available on the MSBA website so there's just a question of you know if that's useful community information and where best to put it I move to approve this invoice do I hear a second I'll second it Kathy seconds it no and in the future Sean maybe we can get it before so to the extent if there is a comment or question on anything to just save time yeah that sounds good okay um I need you to take it down now so I can see see everyone and do a roll call vote um just as I call out your name say yes no or abstain Paul yes uh Jonathan yes yes Rupert yes Sean yes Allison yes Phoebe yes Ben yes and Tammy yes oh not and Tammy there's Alicia too Elisha yes thank you everyone now I will ask are there any other comments before I turn it open it up for public comments I'm not seeing any we do have members of the public I'm going to ask you to raise your hand if you'd like to make a comment um and we will allow you to make the comment and we also welcome anyone submitting comments to us um in writing um as needed wait a minute to see if any hands go up yes there is one person who has raised his hand Bruce I'm going to allow you to talk I think I did that Bruce you are with us if you unmute Bruce Caldom I just raised my hand to compliment you all on your process and the deliberative nature of this and have nothing to add other than my voice to support what you're doing and I thought maybe that's worth doing since no one else is talking and I didn't want you to think that everybody had gone to the bathroom well done thank you that's it for me thank thank you Bruce okay so I I'm so thank you very much um we will do a quick report from the net zero subcommittee meeting we didn't do that right now you know and by way of minutes it was an excellent meeting we had 30 plus participants including the authors of the bylaw Jonathan is the chair so at the next meeting and we don't have another subcommittee meeting set up yet but at the next commit full committee meeting Jonathan you can report back and we may then know if we've scheduled another one so I think I'm looking around the room if there is no objection I think we could adjourn the meeting nobody looks like they want to stay all right then I will in my role as chair I will declare us adjourned I thank you very all very much for getting up on Friday evening thank you everyone