 What do you think about Bogwynda's Julie? I like him. She doesn't like him. She likes him. She just... I don't like him. She doesn't like him. She doesn't like him. God lives in this life. There is no one else but you. You find it in this bone temple here now in this world. This is it. Get going. Don't lose this opportunity. Don't shrivel your time away. Welcome down Broadway. Get it here. Use the birth for all it's worth. Hello everybody. Welcome back to Essence here at Atlanta, of course. My name is Bryce and I'm joined here with my friend, Kelly Teal. I'm so excited. Kelly, how are you doing? I'm good. Really good. Thank you. How about you? I've been so looking forward to doing this with you and you guys, Kelly just did an awesome interview on our friend's channel, Shaunty Aquarius Rising Africa. I'm going to put that down in the description box below where she did. I was just laughing with Kelly. I was telling Shaunty off camera that I contacted you because I was just so fascinated with Nexium not knowing that you were one of us and how cool the universe works in that way. We became friends just from that one interview but you guys, that being said, I am going to put all of Kelly's past videos down in the description box below. She's also done stuff with our friend, Catherine Edwards. So put all that down in the description box below. Kelly yourself has quite a story, quite an exciting life that she's led. I think this topic that we're going to talk about today, what's so cool to talk about this with you, Kelly, is that you not only are you a spiritual person and you've had quite a journey, before Nexium even came into your life, you had such a journey with spiritual teachers, spiritual lineages, gurus, that kind of thing and then you had that experience with Nexium. And so it's really going to be very interesting and I know I've already, I feel kind of lucky because I've already had conversations with you off camera and those conversations with which is what led me to want to do a kind of a reaction video with you. And because this is such, I feel like we're talking about the documentary guys, Carmageddon. And I'm going to link the documentary down in the description box below along with the web page. I told Kelly I have reached out to Jeff Brown, the creator of this documentary because I would love to get him on the show with Kelly and me to see where he is now. I feel like he did such an incredible job with this documentary. But it's about Bhagavan Das and Bhagavan Das is a Kirtan singer. Now I am not a huge fan of Kirtan. I'm just going to be very clear about that. But I have seen Bhagavan Das in concert. He is very talented. He has, he's very talented with music. He's a very good entertainer. But his personality, not so great. His original name was Michael Ridge Riggs. He studied with Neem Crowley Baba who was the same teacher guru that Ram Das had. And Ram Das is a huge, Kelly and I are both huge fans of Ram Das. I know a lot of you guys watching are fans of Ram Das. So Bhagavan Das and Ram Das, their paths collided and they did, they worked together as colleagues peers for a while until Ram Das walked away because of Bhagavan Das' behavior. So is there anything you want to say about that, Kelly, before we get into some of this documentary and some thoughts and stuff? Well, I think, you know, you turned me on to this movie and when I saw it I wasn't really expecting much of a different story. But it actually was a very different story, but the same story that I've seen so many times with gurus and their students or their followers. And it made me cry in a couple of spots because I really could feel for the the follower. And what was his name again? I forget Jeff. Yeah, Jeff Brown. I sorry, I'm a little slow this morning. Bhagavans, the roms. Yeah, Jeff Brown, I really felt for him because I could see the struggle. I could feel the struggle. So I just, this movie is really, really amazing. It's a fantastic, it's like a documentary, really. Absolutely. And it seems almost like that. And I remember the first time I watched and I was telling Kelly that I'll go back and rewatch the documentary every couple of years. And it came out, actually came out in 2011. I thought, I thought it came out a lot earlier, but I guess it is 12 years past. So I guess the older you get, the more you think, oh, that wasn't that long ago. But you know, but so it's been quite, quite a few years since it was released. But I think too, you know, there's so much to break into when it comes to understanding lineages and spirituality and these teachers. And that's why I've actually titled this video, the most important video I've ever made, because I feel like this, this, this documentary opens up a bigger understanding of, of spirituality and lineage and that the teacher should never be confused with the teachings, right? The teacher is just, and it's a very precarious, because I know I'm a teacher, it's a very precarious place to be because when you're in like for me, for my lineage, which is not Kirtan, that's a totally different thing. It's more of a music base. So but in the Ashtanga lineage, when I'm in the mice room holding down the space and teaching, I'm not only responsible for the safety of the students, but I'm also responsible for teaching them. But with that being said, I can't be, I can't, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make the horse drink. They have to be the ones to figure this out. And I said something to you, Kelly. And this is something that I appreciate. And I've said this before, yes, I've been in our statistically abusive relationships. I've been in the cult of one, but I've been very lucky when it comes to my spiritual path. I've always had real, which I could have very easily fallen into something like nexium, but I've been very lucky where my teachers never crossed that line ever. And they always taught that the practice of Ashtanga, the practice of yoga was designed to show you where your issues were, to show you where your self-avoidance was, but it wasn't necessarily there to give you the answer. Yeah, and you know, it's so interesting to look at that, to look at that line. And one of the things they kept saying a couple of times in this documentary was don't throw the guru out with the bathwater. And so that's a very good statement because you want to be able to separate the guru or the teacher from the actual teachings. But what happens, like what happened to me and nexium, the teachings were great, you know, 95% of the teachings were very, they were very helpful. They changed lives and people love the curriculum. And so they were so focused on how the curriculum could be so good, but yet so he couldn't possibly that the, you know, Keith Ranieri who created this curriculum couldn't be bad if if the teachings were so good. And so there was this pulling between letting him go and saying he is bad and he's done these bad things, but I can still take this curriculum and I can use what works for me. I don't have to throw it all out because so people were afraid to throw anything out because they thought that if they got rid of the guru or got rid of Keith or said he was bad, then somehow the curriculum wouldn't stand it wouldn't stand on its own and they couldn't they somehow couldn't be with it. So they had to encompass the whole thing. So that was the hardest part for a lot of people leaving the cult was okay. So what about the curriculum? I still love it. Okay. Well, take what you want and leave the rest and that should be kind of the go to for everyone in any teaching. Take what works for you for however long it works for you and leave the rest and go when you're ready. And that's one thing Ram Dass did say and has said in the past and he said it in this documentary and complicate what you can take what you can. It complicated some of the spiritual teachings like especially with the yoga with the property for these are these are complex theories and so I love that because when a student is new it's not going to make as much sense as five years down the road. Ten years all of a sudden there's going to be and that's how spirituality is designed. It's not designed for somebody to come bippity boppity boo you into enlightenment. It's designed for you to take the steps that your psyche needs to have that deeper understanding and teachers. That's why I mean I know Ram Dass never calls himself a guru but in my opinion out of everyone I've I've ever encountered in spiritual. He is the one person that I think you could call a guru and it's that entrenchment to like as you were saying that I was thinking about like Bhagavan Dass and your situation with Keith Ranieri and a lot of people situations where the teacher becomes kind of entrenched with their students right they're spending their evenings with the students they're those kind of there's kind of blurred lines when it comes to and not saying that that you can't do that I have some students that I freaking think are hysterical and I love chatting with them after class but in my mind when I leave this the Shala room the Mysore room I'm now just Bryce and I didn't know just as much as you do about life and so we're going to laugh about life and what it's you know I'm not going to there's a time and a place but you know I always say my boyfriend is really good at that he's really good at like stopping the lionizing he's very good at keeping boundaries with students so that they don't become dependent on him as something he is not because he understands abuse of power he understands it's very easy to abuse power when you're in it an uneven situation where a teacher student or employer employee or a parent child anything like that it's very easy to abuse it and you know one of the things that I thought was so funny in this documentary is when he compared that the I think I forget who Jeff Brown was talking with but they kind of compared by one dust to a salesman that you know these gurus are just really salesman they're selling themselves and they're selling their ideas and if those ideas sort of our teachings kind of resonate with you then you're going to buy it because it's your product that's a product that they're selling and they're selling themselves and that just really resonated with me that whole salesman and that's the traveling sale right like I was off camera I was like would you I mean I think Bog of Undos definitely has the personality to be a cult leader but I think he's a little too disorganized to be as big as next year but he does have followers he does have people that have like up up up heaved their life and like Keith Reneary was getting people to the was it Buffalo is that where in Buffalo Albany Albany Albany Albany up like listen those upstate New York like if you can convince them there you're definitely you're something you're you're definitely some salesman because that's you know but you people do do that with Bog of Undos state these and it's interesting to as you were saying that as well I was thinking a lot about the dynamics between these and I know there are guys I know they're female cult leaders don't don't get me wrong but when we're looking at Bog of Undos we're looking at a man who loves sex in the manipulation of sex and all these women that that kind of follow him and it's like is he playing on their traumas is he playing on you know the dynamics between the male and a teacher a guru should not do that a good guru teacher might see that in their students might see but the good teacher guru at that point that needs to be aware of that so that they are trying their best to teach this material in the healthiest way possible for the student does that do I make sense saying that does that make sense yeah and that's where again it goes back to abuse of power you know the guru or teacher needs to understand when you know when they are pushing their own values or their wants or needs on to the student and and when the student can't say no because they don't want the punishment or they're afraid of the of being you know kicked out or what have you and and that's the that's the line that I think that's definitely would differentiate someone who is a true guru a true guru is going to understand their own power and where and and not manipulate vulnerable people because the people are coming to teachers and gurus are vulnerable they're looking for something and if you're exploiting their vulnerability that as abuse of power and that that is just that's just so awful and so wrong it's so wrong I say that a lot with like yoga Shalas especially with traditional yoga everyone who walks through those doors they're not there because they're happy anybody who is going to get up at like four o'clock in the morning and do a really hard practice at dark thirty in the morning and it's they're not doing it because you know my boyfriend says that like if you're just doing this to work out zoom goes way more fun totally obviously this is a dedication for that might for his students and like my he talks a lot about you know he's respectful like everyone that rooms has a trauma they're working through we need to keep keep that respect in that space because each person is dealing with their own stuff but to know that and then to play on that and it's almost like people get addicted to the approval of the teacher instead of being able to lean into the teachings and yeah it goes back again to that like walking on eggshells thing that you see with with narcissists or I think a good teacher is always going to give you room and space to have your own questions and you to kind of as as we say not interrupt the students karma like let the student live out their own karma and you're just kind of there as a guiding a guiding like a compass just to kind of help if they you know help push them and maybe the right direction according to the practice not according to you but according to the practice and and that that can be kind of difficult tricky to do sometimes as a teacher to not and for me what I tend to do as a teacher if I feel like I can't explain something unless I use my own experience I will say that this is my experience this is what worked for me just so they know that it's not necessarily the correct way right that they have to hear that out for themselves and you know there are my teacher in India has a famous saying our fame funny line about this as well like without interrupting someone's karma one time telling two time telling three time god-telling right at some point you got to back off and let and that goes to that I wrote something down because a lot and I kind of wanted your thoughts on this Kelly because over and over again in Carmageddon we have Bhagavan Das like making excuses for his behavior and part of this is he says he's here to push over the apple card which really triggers me that's not the teacher's job that's not guru's job the guru teacher's job is not there to create more karma for you right the guru it's like it's like a therapist like most therapists don't hang out with their patients outside of therapy right there's a separation there you have like step away and let somebody experience their life and if there's something like if I see a student doing something dangerous even in the practice I will warn them and warn them but at some point there is a karmic path that has to be taken there and so what was your thoughts on that Kelly with how much he kind of inserted himself as this disastrous person into Pia's lives and then blame it all that's just my pact with God was to come in and tip over your apple card so what I think was going on there which is actually kind of interesting was he was creating chaos and then he was pointing out the fact that he was creating chaos and I really think it was as a distraction right so that people really weren't paying attention of what he was really doing which was you know manipulating women well vulnerable women and so if he could blame you know like if he could create this chaos and say I'm just over tipping it you know I'm tipping over the apple card and isn't it interesting how rageful you got don't you think you should look at that and the people are thinking well yeah I did get really upset I do need to look at that it's just a distraction from the lion that's in the room yeah you know he is ripping it off things from people's homes he was stealing things he was acting like a two-year-old out of control just you know to pitching fits and doing whatever and then using the oh I'm creating chaos in your life isn't that funny and he was really acted look how you reacted yeah you know and that was a distraction to keep him from seeing what he was actually doing that he was the monster the one-eyed monster in the room and that's so interesting because what he's doing and we've said this so many times and this is why in my opinion why cults leaders can't attract people are charismatic but darkness can't create anything only the light can create so all of these cults whether it be nexium whether it be Scientology I'm not talking about the Zeno stuff I'm talking about the reactive mind stuff at the beginning levels of Scientology Bhagavan Das whatever it is people find people you will resonate with truth and so what these people are doing is they're taking something that light created a truth and they're manipulating it into their own coercion and so Bhagavan Das says oh look how you reacted that is true like we have to be responsible for our own like in my opinion triggers are actually the most incredible thing that can happen to you because it's your psyches we have saying hey we need to look at this like we need to look at what's happening here like that but that has to be your responsibility however however what you the first rule of yoga is a hemsa which means non-violence and people violence is being like just physical violence the violence is also manipulation coercion rape grooming that's also violence so what he's doing it's not like there's a one misunderstanding or some he's creating violence and then not taking accountability for what he created which is so wrong it's so wrong and so many people so if you're following a teacher guru to that extent where you're really listening to what he or she is saying then you're looking for some kind of an answer right so you're kind of desperate and they know that so they get handy a few crumbs and maybe this is the answer maybe you know here you should look here for the answer and in that vulnerability of needing an answer outside of yourself they're able to manipulate and I think the most important thing for people to realize is that gurus and teachers are human yeah and all humans come with flaws right and so you cannot overlook the flaws because just because they know more than you in a certain area yeah have more experience than you may be in a certain area or purport to have and say I have the answer they're still flawed Ram Dass is flawed he was first one to he was the first one to say it they're everybody's flawed and so it's very easy for the teacher guru to use that flaw right as a way to kind of bring in their followers right so if I'm if I'm having issues around you know self-esteem whatever let's say I really have issues around that that's going to be what I'm going to teach about and I'm going to bring in the people that have those issues because they're going to resonate with that and if I know that that's where they're weak right and I can recognize that because that's where I'm weak then I can manipulate that by trying to give the answer saying I have the answers for this or turning everything back on to them so basically using their own vulnerability against them absolutely and so it's so important for the student to understand that no matter who they're dealing with it does not matter who they're dealing with that person is human and they have flaws and you need to understand that and realize that they are not perfect they do not have the answer and so that will keep you safe that definitely will keep you in a very objective aware state to be able to take in whatever information this guru or teacher is giving and be able to run it through your filter and say this does work for me this doesn't work for me and it's much easier to see those red flags coming if you're in an aware state absolutely and it's to a state of awareness. Yeah and I want to point out guys now we're talking about this from like spirituality and self-help but this I love how you said it's anywhere it could be a political leader it could be anything that where there is I think micro sense says idealism or there's any time and I you know any type of wanting to change something it could be a karate dojo it could be you know it doesn't matter these are all symptoms of the same problem and you know it's it's it's yeah it's it's it's just it seems like lately it's been so infectious like it's just everywhere I don't know if it's always been everywhere and now because the internet we're just able to like share more stories about it and talk about it more openly but but yeah the teacher is there's not one human being on this earth that is perfect and that is in nexium did they treat Keith Runieri like he was perfect was there was their acknowledgment of him being here yeah yeah very much he well he was sort of humble in certain areas he would pretend to be this humble yeah this humble human but everybody projected all of these spiritually perfect things on to him he was very good at sort of pretending to be humble but yet having all the answers and he lied about being you know this judo champion in the third grade and a concert pianist and having this super super high IQ and being in the Guinness Book of World Records all these things which you know later were proven they didn't exist that those things didn't exist but we all believed it because we wanted to believe it because it was this this sort of lore that was being built like you come into this the organization you don't know it's a cult it's you're coming into a self-help organization and they start talking about Keith from the get-go from the very beginning they talk about this amazing person who created this amazing curriculum and then it just builds from there into this lore where you start to believe it even now I'm like well I never studied Guinness Book of World Records and never seen him play the piano but everybody says that that's what he does and he's just this amazing humanitarian who has created this amazing curriculum is going to help change the world and that was kind of our mission right we're all there for that reason and so it became very easy after a while to just not question it right the lie that the lie became truth and he projected this very sort of humble spiritual person that I'm sure he never said he didn't have any flaws but you didn't really see them and you didn't believe that he really had them because you were so focused on getting to be becoming a better person raising yourself to enlightenment and that he had the answer for that and so you just went along with the program because you I wanted it so badly and all of us did it's almost the Kool-Aid we drank the Kool-Aid and you were groomed in a way to see him through rose colored glasses I feel like those lies were very intentional to kind of subconsciously get you to perceive him as that kind of person and sometimes you guys I want to point this out to sometimes when the beautiful things you see about a guru or a teacher the things you admire about them are actually aspects of yourself in that person when you know that you can create those boundaries and distances healthy boundaries I'll say you know and my world my teachers in India so I only see him every few months or so and it's interesting because it kind of builds up to that like you go from having a daily teacher to then going to India and we have this saying like when the students ready the teacher appears and when the student is really ready the teacher disappears right yes they step back and that's kind of what happens you start going any is that those times when you're not there you're then step the teachers and totally not in communication with you like totally you're on your own as I say I'm in my kitchen at four o'clock in the morning practicing up to the dog bowl and the first time I had to do that without a teacher around I was panicked but then I grew more within my own because that's that's the process and some of these cult leader ask teachers make it so you feel like you can never not have them which says more than it does about you right there's an addiction right to their presence there's an addiction to their teaching that you need them in order to be okay you need them to find the answer and the and you need them all the time and so you find yourself giving more of your time more of your money more of your thoughts more of everything and starting to repress your own needs and wants and your own emotions and one hundred right yeah and again that's that's the same in a narcissistic we abuse a relationship open calls of what it's all the same thing it's all that steam and when you start to understand that you can see it and all these different dynamics you can see it and once you see it you can be more discerning and I think to Kelly because right now we know like we're coming into this great awakening this age of Aquarius like humanity is actually shifting to where people are more open to spirituality they're more they people want to leave the matrix they want to get out of this more left brain and move more to the or whatever it is they want and so I feel like right now that might be why there's a higher stakes for people being so desperate to find answers to fall into the traps with these with these teachers one thing I know I wanted we were talking a lot about what kind of want to circle back to his like causing trouble and then blaming the person for reacting to that trouble there's a very disturbing scene and there's a lot of disturbing scenes but there's yeah he's probably what is 60 70s how old was he when they when they made 70s I would say maybe I yeah I think 70 and there was like a 17 18 year old girl that came to one of his shows and I do you want to take it from here Kelly because we talked about this I want to let you give your perspective on what happened when he wanted her to sleep with her and the parents and yeah but I found really disturbing was that he wanted so she was 18 or 17 or something and Bhagwan Das wanted her to go on tour with him and basically be his sex partner and I believe she said no and it wasn't on the in the film but later you find out she did say no and the parents were talking about how he had come in and disrupted the apple cart in their home and how the father became very very angry and rageful and then Bhagwan Das said look at how angry you are and so he had to take a look at his own anger so he may have had some anger issues already and he wanted to work on them but then all of a sudden he was focused just on those anger issues and he was thanking the situation for bringing it up for him yeah and not and completely wasn't thinking about this situation where this old man was glomming onto his 18 year old daughter and the predicament that she was in and smart enough to say no but completely disregarded that like so the line is in the room yeah and he's focused on his rage and how much he's growing in that he would welcome that disruption again in his home and I thought holy cow like really that it's so so this girl right mean she's so young she like just turn 18 gone to this Kirtan the guy asked her to come on tour so she's so excited not thinking she obviously had no clue that he wanted to see this guy could be her grandfather like that's probably how she sees him and then to have that heartbreak that realization that the payment for her to do this was to sleep with him and and how well and how like predatory and grooming that was and for the father to write these so as a father be protective of his daughter and then for Bhagavan dos to turn that around and make the father the problem and then the mother I believe said well at least he's telling us the truth Bhagavan das is telling us who he is that he that he you know wants to sleep with our 18 year old daughter at least he's telling us the truth and I'm thinking just because he's telling the truth doesn't make it okay oh it's like it doesn't and now to me was like those two parents were just like gone gone they had read they had bought into the trap they had drinking the kulae that I was thinking about that as well as whole idea where he has this shtick where he's like I least I don't lie about at least I'm honest but I'm like so what what he's doing in my opinion is borderline pedophilia like it's yes it's gross right and I laughed with Shaunty my the first time I saw him in concert I was like 30 was like 10 years ago and my my when my girlfriends was with me and she was like do you think he's gonna head on us and I was like girl way too old like I laughed about I was like we're way too old for him at 30 like we're good he like I laughed about it 40 I'm like as a 40 year old woman to see if I see an 18 year old boy that's a child to me that is right to me I do not want to be involved like that's disgusting like that is gross you know I will be 11 on Friday like that's only seven years away like that is disgusting and so I just wanted to I wanted to shake those parents and be like is your daughter okay what about your daughter why are you so fixated on Bhagavan Das's predatory behavior and now you felt you have apologized to Bhagavan Das because you reacted to his breath that is your job as a parent is super right and just because he told you out front yeah I'm a predator not he didn't exactly say that but he was supposedly he was you know I'm telling you the truth this is who I am does not make it okay and it does not excuse his behavior which is completely wrong abuse of power going after vulnerable people all of that stuff I mean it does not excuse any of it and that was I think this is probably the most frightening scene for me in that whole documentary was seeing that yeah it's every time I rewatch it every couple of years when I rewatch it I'm always shocked by more stuff the older I get and more of an understanding I have the way the world works and I will say to as a girl if I were a 20 year old and a 70 year old teaching me but then wanted to sleep with me I would never consider the fact that he saw me as a sexual being but I would think he saw me as like his granddaughter like like a you know there's an age appropriateness there what about the scene Kelly where they're at Bhagavan Das's house and his I guess his assistant's daughter little yeah she was what maybe seven or eight and she said I don't like him I don't like him from the mouth of babes and the mother is like oh she's just kidding and she's like no I don't like him I don't like him and Jeff Brown's face they went right to Jeff Brown's face and he was like hmm interesting yeah exactly children and animals always tell the truth like that exactly and I will say in India part of the culture is you know they they don't really discipline kids until a certain age because they will and rightly so not the just I have an actual because some of the Indian kids can be quite terroristic because they're not disciplined at all but the kids rightly so in the fact that the kids are just now coming from the spiritual realm so in Indian culture children are the closest thing to God right there's an innocence there there's a pureness there as I'm telling the story I kind of got a little shock a little emotion there's this really famous picture of this girl with this long brown hair she's probably four or five and she's hugging my teacher in India like so he's picked her up and she's hugging him so hard and the story behind this picture is the little girl a lot of kids will come with their parents especially if they're young enough where they're not really in school and they but the little girl had heard so much about Sharath from her mother talking about Sharath going to Indian to study with him and she saw his picture and so she saw Sharath walking down the street towards the shawla and she was standing outside and she just screams and like just leaped into him and hugged him and you know my teacher will often like if kids are in the shawla while they're practicing their parents are practicing like babies especially he'll put the baby on his shoulders and like loving towards children you know and so I don't even know I was I don't remember going with that but no because kids tell the truth kids will always tell the truth you know think about how many kids don't want to go sit on that weird uncle's lap and the parents are pushing the reason yeah there's the reason yeah and that little girl definitely was like uh-uh don't like him don't want to be here to be around him and I thought to listening to the whole time Jeff Brown is trying to find a reason for why this holy man is behaving the way he's behaving and so I was kind of thinking about this because after you know meeting you and getting to know these cult survivors like the idea that cults don't look for stupid people they look for smart people and there's obviously Jeff Brown is very smart a very smart guy there's a complexity of thought when it comes to higher intelligence there's often a complexity of thoughts then you make the end with that and then you've got a very dangerous situation for a print for someone who's praying and um so this whole time you see Jeff Brown trying to validate the reason why Bhagavan Das is the way he is in the meantime his own triggers are coming up he's getting angrier and angrier rightly so at the way Bhagavan Das is behaving and he has this conversation and guys like I said I'm not in the yoga world so I'm not in the cure I am the other world not the cure ton world so I don't know who these singers all these other singers are but there's a married couple a man and he's having this conversation about the guru the guru the guru and the wife kind of looks up at one point goes but is he a guru yep exactly perfect that is what is your perception Kelly of the way Jeff Brown self almost self-govern himself in trying to support Bhagavan Das is bad behavior is almost like he was self-governing in a sense to to justify the way his teacher was behaving this way yeah I saw it of slightly differently I think I saw it that he was struggling with the teachings so the teachings seem to be helping him somewhat deal with his past traumas perhaps and his life that we all have right we all have traumas and we're all trying to we're all struggling on some level and I think he was having this really hard time saying how can this guru do these things and yet I'm still feeling this need to follow him because I'm I'm getting something from this and I and I just I really understood that struggle because he didn't it's like not seeing the red flags although he was seeing the red flags he was actually very much seeing it and I think his struggle was but I love this man on some level and at the end of the documentary don't give it totally away he understands why he is drawn to actually drawn to him and at this point he doesn't really know so his struggle is so human right he's he's saying okay this is bad behavior and I'm angry about this but yet I'm still attracted to this person I still need something from them I'm still in in relationship with them and so I think it was just a very for him was a very confusing time trying to figure it out and I can totally understand that women in abusive relationships that keep going back like we people always want to why do these women keep going back to their abusive because it's not simple it's very it's a very complex situation it's not as simple as not black and white for you at that time when you're in that yes gray you know and he was doing so much bug for Bhagwan Das he was he was helping him get on the train and he was you know providing things for him and he was with him and and you could tell at one point when he realized that he was just such a bad it has bad behavior then he started behaving Jeff Brown started behaving kind of a little bit in a passive aggressive way like he was kind of poking at him to see what he would say and you could tell and so there was this sort of push me pull you going on and he was just trying to figure it out for himself and that is the typical a person who's in a cult like situation trying to get out it is so confusing that that's why it takes the programmers to help people get out of cults that's why it takes an army of people to help the psychological aspect of leaving a person or a cult or a group or a community that is controlling like what was going on there of an abusive relationship it's typical of a narcissist in an impact it's so typical and you're right that thing about Bhagavan Das is like he's so he's like he himself is codependent on his devotees because I don't even know if the guy knows how to wipe his own ass you know like I hate yeah yeah everyone does everything for him the whole there was a scene where he he got up and Bhagavan Das was staying in his house and he was staying in the kitchen peeing in a used water bottle and he kind of was like a little taken aback like this is not really human decency to pull your your wiener out and just pee in a bottle someone's kitchen yeah then he even started saying well I'm maybe he's right I'm going to make way for the I'm going to try it yeah and it's just like that's typical drink in the Kool-Aid that's typical going okay well what's okay so I'll try it maybe it's me maybe I'm the problem maybe I have some issues that I need to deal with around peeing in a cup or whatever and so I'm going to try it because they keep saying to me why don't you try it so I'll do it okay it's not that bad but that's the whole thing it's like it's like they push the boundaries these gurus and teachers that are controlling push all these boundaries and make it about you you're in your vulnerabilities your inability to deal with certain things your weaknesses and so judging someone for peeing in a cup listen so the reason why you are triggered by a person peeing in a cup is because it's gross and there's a reason right and yeah I mean and they're in your house like that I would never pee in a cup and somebody I would do it even do it in my house I would not even do it and so it's just a typical behavior of somebody who is out of control who just believes they can do whatever they want and you know make it because of their the power that they do have they can just make it okay and you know one of the other things that I wanted to touch on what after I was I watched as I took a lot of notes was that spiritual bypassing that they were talking about yes it was I which I found really fascinating and I think he was doing a lot of that it was like instead of dealing Jeff Brown and this happens with just about everybody and I think in a controlling situation instead of dealing with the emotions a repressed stuff that's going on and what what really needs to be healed they use this oh I'm working on my spirituality I'm working with this guru to make my instead of working on what's really inside here so they're going outside themselves and sort of bypassing what really needs to be worked on and just focusing on well I'm becoming more spiritual and I'm with a spiritual person so I must be doing something right and I found that really fascinating I think I think Ram Dass talked about that yeah he even said at one point people confuse self-avoidance for enlightenment and I thought there is there it is yes yeah let's let's touch on Ram Dass too because I told you when that the the conversation so he flies out to Hawaii to sit down with Ram Dass to be like why did you leave Bhagavan Dass what's what's your perception and the whole time when he's trying to convince almost like he's trying to convince himself that it's okay that he's falling Ram Dass but Ram Dass is very now this is after he had a stroke so is speaking is a little bit slower but let's talk about that conversation what did you think about I I fell in love with Ram Dass even more when I saw that conversation so what did you think about that with the conversation he had with Ram Dass I thought Ram Dass was very you considered what he was saying very much so he's very kind of careful about how he was saying it you know he was basically saying you know Bhagavan Dass is a human being and I love his soul but I don't like his incarnation that's basically what he said and that he questioned you know is he really enlightened when he was asked by the interviewer if do you think Ram Dass is enlightened and he's like are a spiritual highly spiritual enlightened person he's like mmm I don't know and he really questioned him as a guru and he said I don't call myself a guru right most gurus don't guys most most gurus don't and so is he a guru he was so surprised that he called himself one so he never really said anything but he basically questioned his abuse of power and his role in so many words in his role that's a really good thing they say this in India a lot if somebody calls themselves a guru run run yeah the students label the teacher the guru the students give that nickname to the master gurus is basically a master teacher not the person if someone calls themselves that you're in danger right like I would call Ram Dass that because I think he was at that level of being aware of his own flaws but being able to navigate his flaws out of it when when when helping someone else and I would I see Ram Dass as someone where if I he was my teacher I could ask him questions and question things without feeling like I was going to be kicked out of the community or you know I see him as a type of person that to his best knowledge with his students he did whatever he felt like was the best at the moment it's sincerely for his students he was definitely not Ram Dass I would say least likely of a cult leader out of a lot of these teachers because he was very compassionate you can tell even though he was so famous you can tell he never considered himself to be higher or better than anybody else that he was working with and but that's different with Bhagavan Dass and I like that Ram Dass you know we talk a lot my boyfriend I have these conversations a lot especially within the yoga community because I think what happens to is that there's a manipulation around this idea of of equanimity and we always point to to Gandhi as kind of the you know the teachings of yoga are spiritual practices it's not about zoning out or disassociating from from your life it's more about being actively involved in your life like if something's wrong you are responsible for speaking up that is part of the practice of yoga look at what Gandhi did but you do it in a nonviolent way so at that point you know the British were there was a you know conflict between the British and the Indians and Gandhi stood up against the British but he never hurt anyone in doing that but he stood up for what was right you know what that being said part of a Hemser you know they say that's why Patanjaling picked a Hemser and didn't pick peace he picked a Hemser right part of Hemser as well is like if somebody breaks into your house and is threatening to kill you or your family members you kill them first like you do self-defense like that is part of a Hemser as well and but where the at one feminist part comes it comes about is being doing everything you can't to stand up for what is right but having faith and peace that whatever happens in the end you're going to be okay if that yeah and I think it's dilated and so we see that with Rom Doss in that conversation where Rom Doss is like I want nothing to do and you know I thought it was interesting because Jeff Jeff Brown was like well does it matter if he's such a great kirtan singer and teacher doesn't matter that he's got this problem with stealing from people sleeping with underage girls and young girls and and Rom Doss was like it all matters yeah it all matters and that that was I think what Jeff Brown took away from that conversation was yes it all does matter all of it it all matters mm-hmm and I think that that's what happens with people in the organizations like that they forget that all of that matters because they start to lose their critical thinking skills because they're you know hiding the red you know they're refusing to see the red flags they're you know and that's kind of like what happened that couple we were talking about the parents it all matters what he did matters matters somehow scooping it under the carpet and focusing on the chaos and the apple cart that was being tossed over in their own home because somehow they might be learning a little bit about their own anger or what have you but it all matters yeah absolutely and two things get to be true you can take a situation if your parent like what happened Bhagavan Das and when and when the dust settles be able to reflect back on your behavior but you can also put up that boundary and say what you did is not okay and it will be okay and you cross the line you are not welcome back in our lives and I will protect my child any day over you two things can be true right and so in a healthy situation I think that's where a lot of good therapy comes comes into it because I think a therapist is good about kind of helping people see a good therapist anyway is helping people see that what this especially if you're the victim of trauma or abuse what that person did to you is not okay absolutely not let's work on you too so that this doesn't happen again so that you can heal whatever needs to be healed in your reaction yeah so you can live a healthier life and not have this resurface again you know and did you see that with Keith Reneary was his behavior when his bad behavior started to come out did you see blame shifting or anything like that going on and oh sure at at the end for sure I mean there was a lot of hiding and secrecy and blame shifting and all of that but I think that the hardest part for a lot of people to see is that hopefully I'll say this correctly but so good people can do bad things like I can do bad things you know it's not my MO but you know I've done bad things we all have right but bad people this is where they can hide bad people can do good things right and so we think that if somebody is bad they would never be doing good things and so the way to decipher this is to be able to say like in the situation with Bhagwan Das and that young girl that was a bad thing right now being able to see how your anger is evolving over situations is a completely different subject yeah and it's a good thing to look at yeah so don't combine the two just be able to see that you know don't let somebody who is doing something good like helping you to see your anger don't think that they cannot be a bad person if they're doing a good thing right and that's how I think Keith hid behind a lot of this and it was so confusing for so many of us was that we believed he was this amazingly good person doing these good things in the world and how could a good person I mean do bad things well yeah they can but we we forgotten said okay wait a minute so if he's bad that was the questions if he's bad then how could he be doing these good things so he can't be bad if he's doing these good things so it's kind of backwards because we know that good people make mistakes and do bad things but if you're looking for the bad person who's hiding behind all the good things that sometimes hard to see them because you're they get combined does that make sense yeah it's like bad people we say good people make mistakes and do bad things bad people make mistakes and do good things but that no I'm laughing about that but in the long one it talks about this as well and bad people will use good deeds as manipulating cover to hide yeah to hide behind right if all these wonderful things they've created they couldn't possibly be bad you know they couldn't possibly bad people don't do good things well that's not true that's not true it's actually very yeah and you think about it because you think about like something simple like for those watching if your neighbor is elderly and you see them struggling carrying the groceries in and you decide because you feel empathy that you're going to run out and ask if you could help and you're going to help them there's no you don't want anything in return you just feel bad you love your neighbor they're elderly you want it you just feel that that need to go and like have empathy and help them right then you don't want nothing in return but a bad person might not feel that empathy not might not give a shit whether that person is struggling or not but have learned the skill skills to go out say let me help you to then want something in return later so that they look good yeah filled up that good a good so people never suspect that there's a really really really bad monster behind there because this all these good things are happening and they hide behind that right and it's like if you're questioning is that a bad person well no I don't think they're back there doing all these good things well that's that's where I think a lot of mistakes happen and I think that's what happened to that couple yeah is that they refuse to see because he had a lot of you know good and he did have a lot of good teachings and he had a lot of good impact on people and I think Jeff Brown says that a couple of times his teachings were good he helped a lot of people work through a lot of things but then there was this really bad behavior that was being covered up by those good things and and confusing people you know to throwing the goober out with the bathwater right and I will go re-enterate what we said at the very beginning the teachings that Bhagavad Gita is using to help people are not his teachings mm-mm they're coming from a very ancient system a lineage in India the teachings I teach with Prakriti Parusha Ishvara to my students those aren't mine that's and teachers teach you guys this is common knowledge and one of the Kirtan singers actually kind of said this and this is commonly known around the yoga yoga world some people do ignore it though the teacher primarily will teach what the teacher needs to learn exactly exact and they're teaching what they are struggling with yes and if that struggle matches up with yours you're going to naturally be attracted to that particular teacher and as Ram Dass said later on again it's that you know take what you can what you need what resonates and leave the rest for however long that is a day a week a month and leave the rest so that you are still in control of what information you are deciding to take in and use you don't have to use it all right so and was I feel like Bhagavan Dass like I mean like I said I I am not a Kirtan fan at all I would somebody asked my teacher in India once in conference um asked Kirtan is not a part of the Ashwagalan it's chanting is chanting but not Kirtan and somebody asked my teacher conference once what his thoughts were on Kirtan and my teacher sat there for a minute and usually he doesn't usually he gives very vague answers um but this time he kind of looked at this and he goes have you ever been to a rock concert and a girl is like yes and he goes those are way more fun totally right yeah totally um that's you know and you could have the same simulated experience a lot of rock concerts can feel very spiritual because it does something to you the music but that's the difference right we understand that Mick Jagger is a musician he's not he's not a guru he's not a he's just a great musician my relationship with the Rolling Stones music actually doesn't have a lot to do with the people who created it it's my own memories of my sister and I playing with my my parents records we were kids unless you know that's my sense memory and so on and I've been to this I saw the stones in San Francisco in the mid 2000s those were the best freaking things I think that they were like 60 at the time and I was like in my 20s I was like they have more energy than I do like you know it was a great concert but I'm not idolizing Mick Jagger as some some no all-knowing person but we have someone like Bhagavan Das who's purporting to be this holy man that's where the manipulation comes so if you can and I will say even though I don't like Kirtan out of all the Kirtan players Bhagavan Das is probably the only one I have gone to and will go to because it's really he's a good musician but if you can see it for he is a flawed man he has a great talent though he know he can really create this music there's obviously for everything wrong with him there is that one special thing right and you can just see it for what it is and have your own experience with the music and then just walk away that but that he you with this this documentary we know that he has the propensity to cross boundaries so your job and yes and if you need something and you think that thing is outside of yourself and you think that he has the answer for whatever it is you need you're going to find yourself most probably doing things that go against yourself what you would never normally do and so the whole filter thing is so important to understand there's no one has the answer there's nothing outside you that's going to give you the answer and but you can find bits and pieces of information they're going to help you but take what resonates and leave the rest absolutely absolutely anything else you wanted to bring up with this that we missed I took a bunch of notes but I know kind of hit it all I I think just you know the spiritual bypassing I think is a really we talked about that is such an important part of the spiritual kind of journey that many of us are on that it's like don't forget about the real work which is in here and don't use spirituality as a crutch to say you know I don't need to deal with that because I'm following and I don't have to look at myself I can just say well I'm I'm working on it I think we we hit pretty much everything Oh this is one so one of the things that he said was is there a fine line between madness and illumination right and what are we willing to do to ourselves and to our psyche in the name of enlightenment that's a big one I think how far are we willing to push our comfort zones our ethics our our silence our critical thinking in order to in beat to feel or to work toward enlightenment like what are we willing to do not and where is that line between madness and enlightenment and that's the thing to you bring up a good point because we look back at like Indian culture again and where this all stems from yeah everybody watching right now it unless you're in an ashrom which if you're an ashrom you're not watching us because you probably you probably don't have stop everybody watching right now you are what they classify as a householder that does not yes that you have to have a family this just means that you live in the real the real world whatever that means but you live in society you live in civilization yeah if you were a muck or a brahman priest your life would look very different and you cut off like I said you would be living an ashrom you and these these priests in India they have everyone do everything for them just like Bhagavan Das but in a different heading because Bhagavan Das is a householder acting like a guru and so when you are living in in the you know in are you Vedic medicine which the sister science to spirituality they say you can never be pure than your environment are you gonna go crazy like I live in a city I I don't need to be following a pure vegan diet with pure water in the 12 hours a day because it's gonna make me go bananas because I step outside it's toxic fumes and it's cars and there's a lot of Cheean cities there's a lot of Vata energy lights constantly constantly noises right but if I lived in the North Georgia mountains that that kind of diet and like might be more sustainable because the out the outside is matching the inside so when we try to become the Bhagavan Das is in our householder life it's going to cause insanity and there's a great I think it's actually I think it's in this book called Kundalini by John White it's got a ton of different writers and they talk about some stories of people who had their you know a lot of people will like to write me and say oh my Kundalini rose and I'm like I don't think so because if you read this book when people have that eruption is not pleasant not have that happen to me it is not as an at all not even a little it is you see people go blind for a little while and this one guy like roamed around India going crazy like just it's not a blissful experience not at all well one of my boyfriend's teachers used to say bliss is blistering bliss is blistering and so you have to you have to you know we didn't and I actually the final monologue you guys and if you watch this to the very end I'm actually going to play Jeff Brown saying this final one of monologue because it is one to me it's one of the most well-spoken poignant truths about spirituality he says there was a spiritual lesson in all this but not the one I expected I too was a spiritual bypasser turning to God as an escape for my unresolved pain body I thought that's powerful using God as a scapegoat right I'm sorry guys my nose runs under these lights all the time it's so gross stuff I'm looking for spirituality out there rather than in here in my real life so again that idea don't go and be this character and try to live this be here in your real life in the car lane picking your kids up in cooking dinner and doing the laundry and going to pay your taxes like that is part of your spiritual spiritual experience as a householder in this life in my embodied experience the truth is I couldn't be here now because I was still in the then the power of then I love that and now I know why I was so attracted to ungrounded ideas of spirituality which is what Bhagavan Das is just a walking ungrounded chaos chaos he's too up in the upper chakras he has nothing holding him in the lower chakras and we see that a lot where people want to open their third eye and it's like well what about Maladara? what about that room chopper because that's where it all starts is grounding to this human experience after my childhood I needed spirituality that kept me from feeling what lay below the surface it felt easier to believe I could ask the universe what I wanted and it would manifest and by pretending it was all good it would make it all good even if it wasn't I was confusing self avoidance with enlightenment my repressed emotions are not illusions to detach from they're actually unresolved spiritual lessons a karmic field for my soul's expansion if I want to grow my relationship to God I have to drop right back down into my body raise the feelings from their grave and do the real work to heal my heart spirituality lives inside of our bones and not in our effort to escape them here is well where we heal there is nowhere to go just here and this is the first sutra of the yoga sutra sutra 1.1 and now the study of yoga begins and people often think oh they're saying like now you're beginning no well Baton Julina is saying it's always in the now you're always beginning in the now not tomorrow not in the past when you die you die in the now when you're born you're born in the now it's always in the now every day you begin to get every day in that now moment and I love that and that's what you know we know our body is a temporary experience we know we're not really Kelly and Bryce this is just the rollercoaster ride we're on right now right that's all it is the soul is just having this experience in this avatar and you know my boyfriend will say a lot it's because your soul picked an avatar picked an experience for opportunities to refine itself that's all and so sometimes fighting that that solar finding itself is sitting in the car pole lane to pick your kids up that's where all the lessons are not about that you know he said what did he say treat everyone you meet like a guru in drag yeah you know so everyone out there that we meet is a teacher for us we're teachers for each other and the lessons are right here they're not out there now in some you know retreats with a guru you know or living in a commune and that's that's all good and fine but that's not where the answers are there they're right here in the living now in your life and escaping that is spiritual bypassing exactly you know it's so funny as you're saying that people will ask me a lot about my experiences going to back and forth to India to study and stop and I think what they're wanting me to say is that it's amazing it's wonderful it's it's you know you just walk in and boom you're enlightened and I'm like no it's hard because it's your normal life but now you're in India right and and there it's gritty and it's gritty and it's rough and it's yes sure you know the school I go to it's a school it's a school so they don't provide you with housing you have to find your own apartment you have to find your way from Bangalore the four hour drive to Mysore you got to figure out all this stuff no one's there to hold your hand you go to classes you go home you got homework you've got all that kind of stuff and so there's nothing if anything you end up having like most people haven't break down their first trip because they didn't you expected to go there and you expected to all the sudden see God you know and to come back walking on clouds and that's just not the case it's just the reason we go there is because that's where the teacher that's where he that's where he lives that's where the school is and that's where the lessons the lessons are coming up in that struggle and that's why people break down because they're expecting oh the struggle is not going to be here I'm going to be in bliss I'm going to be enlightened and then the real struggle comes in and it's like there's like this whole you know breaking down you know and a lot of times the rawness when he talks about the stuff we try to cover the pain body that we avoid when you're in a situation like in India that's one thing that happens too because you're not working you can't work you're not working you're you've got this free time though not really free time you have classes but there's no like TV to watch there's no so all this it's just you it's just you and all of a sudden every issue you have starts to kind of come up starts to kind of go itself you know and it's one of my favorite sayings is wherever you go there you are there you are yeah wherever you go there you are and so and so you can't you know and so with that being said like Maya you know a lot of our students will ask like you know should I go to India should I do that and my boyfriend's like if you want to but if that's not you know if you're looking for something that's going to you know you can also find great teachers in the United States too like you you can't it's up to you like there's no nothing magical happens in the sense that you walk out and all of a sudden you're flying on unicorns back to the States no it's it's that would be fun I want to see that but have you seen all of us who come back and forth to India we are still the same people we still we still got our problems we've still got our issues it's you know we just now have spent time in India right we've just learned to through a few a few kind of the words which is the language they speak there you know it's wherever you go there you are and if you're trying to get anything from Shirat like I said I have had really fortunate experiences my teacher is very big on boundaries you know if you look a private time with him to speak about stuff he's not going to give you any answers I'm just going to tell you that right now he's going to speak vaguely and he's going to direct you to figure it out for yourself yeah because you're the only you can figure it out you are the only one with the answer there is no answer out there you are the only one with your answer I was saying with Shanti like he always makes fun of us because people will come and ask him for like romantic advice or like relationship advice and he's like I'm a braum it I've been arranged to the same wife for 20 years now marriage we do things differently over here in my culture I don't know anything all I know is my students from the West every four years have a new partner like I don't know how y'all do things like I don't know he's I'm paraphrasing how he says this but he's like your culture is very different from mine and so my advice not going to be appropriate for you you need to talk if you have issues with their relationship you need to talk to somebody from your culture about this yeah you know what I respect so much that he's you know my teachers grandfather was my boyfriend's teacher and his grandfather didn't speak he spoke English but he my teacher speaks fluent English because he grew up with English-speaking people and he's he can mimic Americans his his hysterical when he mimics Americans but his grandfather my my boyfriend's teacher only spoke like some English broken English and he said it was great because whenever he didn't want to answer a question he just all of a sudden didn't speak English anymore right right exact I forgot I forgot how to speak all of a sudden speaking like how great is that you're like oh no no I'm that English I was like oh just like oh that's funny intentional it was very and it taught he said it was like it was interesting because you could see when a student when I ask a question and it was just too it was not you could see he buried all of a sudden he would just step back like nope this is not not no it's out of yeah and that's yeah and I think that could be you know in some ways that's sort of the teach are the students responsibility to right when you if you're going to look at it both ways to not be asking those questions that you know no one can answer and putting the teacher on the spot with questions like that so there is a responsibility that we all have to as a as a student I would never listen I respect my teacher in brahman I know that like he knows that like most of yeah I have concerns or questions about my life I would never bring to him because again as he said so eloquently like I'm not from the west we don't we don't have the same we don't have the same right right and yeah and for him I will say what's interesting just a little trivia what he did so when as a female because in India India is still very male driven women are still in a lot of ways not equal to men yeah so back when his grandfather was still I've been running it for women to be authorized like I am so if I got authorized under his grandfather my authorization would say I authorized Bryce Elizabeth Watson daughter of Dr. Edgar Lee Watson Jr. Oh interesting I would be owned but the men just had their names well once my teacher took over after his grandfather died he changed that that women he recognized that that women needed to have their own like they didn't need their father on on their on their authorization you know that that's something he kind of started to change that a little bit like you know which is awesome that he because that's not the culture there so you know so he he has given a lot that's different from his own culture to recognize and honor his students because most of his students are Europeans and Americans and Canadians so yeah I think I think the I think the local Indians they were y'all maybe you can do that like so anyway you guys well Kelly I appreciate you coming on and discussing this Jeff Brown dude I'm almost started talking you to get you to come on with us and and I know and I just things like human amazing human being I I would love to meet him me too and I'm just got so many questions like we said 12 years later I follow on Instagram I'll put Jeff Brown's I'll put all of Kelly's links down also put Jeff Brown's links down to guys is Instagram you can tell he's still teaching a lot of spiritual principles and therapy and stuff so he hasn't left the spiritual world it seems I don't know that's just what I gather from his Instagram but so you can follow him as well and I will put a link to the documentary so you guys can watch it for yourself so good let us know what you think what you what you notice what your thoughts are the teacher and the teachings are two very different things and don't ever use it too yeah so all right you guys hang on as we fade out I'm going to be playing that final monologue from Jeff Brown's own words the way he beautifully speaks it so hold on to watch this as the outro and Kelly and I will speak to all of you guys very soon bye everybody and there was a spiritual lesson in all of this but not the one I expected at the start of this journey I was living in the illusion of my own solidity I was fooling myself I too was a spiritual bypasser turning to God as an escape for my unresolved pain body looking for spirituality out there rather than right here in my real life in my embodied experience the truth is that I couldn't be here now because I was still in the then the power of then and now I know why I was so attracted to ungrounded ideas of spirituality after my childhood I needed the kinds of spirituality that would keep me from feeling what lay below the surface it felt easier to believe that I only had to ask the universe for what I wanted and it would manifest that I could find enlightenment by detaching from my feelings and that by pretending that it was all good it would make it good even if it wasn't good at all but this just perpetuated my issues I was confusing self-avoidance with enlightenment it was one thing to tap into mystical realms as I had in moments around Bhagavan Das but quite another to sustain that deeper awareness this journey showed me that spirituality and the emotional life cannot be separated I repressed emotions are not illusions to detach from they're actually unresolved spiritual lessons the karmic field for my soul's expansion if I want to grow in my relationship to God I have to drop right back down into my body raise the feelings from their burial ground into the real work to heal my heart in its own way my journey with Bhagavan Das had taught me what I most needed to learn that spirituality actually lives inside of our bones and not in our efforts to escape them here is where we heal here is where we explore the mystery here is where real spirituality begins there's nowhere to go just here