 Hey, guys. I'm Doris, as Sam already said. So we're going to, as a product manager for Google, I've been there for about six and a half years or so right now, so quite some time. Of those years, two and a half as a product manager, I've also done sales and marketing in the beginning. I did a bunch of years of finance, and then I switched to product management. I'm not going to be talking about those switches in my talk, but feel free to ask me questions about it if you're interested in those kind of switches. A bit of background. I got a master's degree in economics that I got in Amsterdam from the Netherlands. I've been coding as well for a big part of my life. Mostly as a hobby. Most recently, I also started taking grad courses in artificial intelligence, which is obviously a very hot topic, but also very interesting to learn about at Stanford. So I'm going to be talking about emerging markets specifically. I think a lot of the stuff I'm talking about is probably going to be applicable to anything you do in product management. But emerging markets, that's what I've been doing over the last two and a half years, a strong focus on that area. So it's what I know most about, so might as well talk about that. Specifically, I'm going to talk about two different things. First is why emerging markets. I've already given that talk here previously, but I saw that almost nobody was here for the second time. So that should be fine. And then I'm going to talk about File's Go, which is an app that I've led over the last year or so, that we've recently launched, and going to talk about the things that I learned, building that, launching it, growing it, all those kind of things. So first, why emerging markets? So internet growth is happening everywhere. And this is actually not, even not that great of a statement, because I'll show you where it's actually happening right now. This is the current, or like 2016, total internet users spread over the world. The countries that are lighting up are the countries with the highest amount of internet users. Not percentages, these are absolute numbers. Pretty clear, right? You see US, India, China, Brazil, Nigeria is there as well. So that's kind of, if you're talking about like, where are the masses of people right now? If you're thinking about which countries to think about, it's those countries. Now, if you, rather than looking at what's currently, where the current users are, if you look at the growth, you get quite a different picture. China is still lighting up, but you see one country lighting up very, very clearly, and that is India. India is growing extremely rapidly, and the internet users, as we call it here, that are coming online there, they're not necessarily people with a laptop or with a desktop, but they're people getting their first smartphone and starting to use the internet that way. So every year, this has been true for the last couple of years, and will be true for the next couple of years. India sees 50 to 100 million new smartphone users coming online. That's a big number. My country where I'm from has 17 million inhabitants total, so it just adds like, what are five times that amount every year in terms of internet users? So that gives you a sense of like, hey, why are we focused on India, or why are we focused on emerging markets? It's where the big numbers in terms of growth are, in terms of new users. So yeah, if you extend that a little bit to kind of the total amount of smartphone users in the world, I think there's about two and a half billion smartphone users in the world more or less. I'm not 100% sure if it's that number, but around that area, more than a billion are already in emerging markets, and given that the growth is very clearly there, very soon the majority, and very soon after that, like the vast majority of smartphone users are going to be in emerging markets. So if you're thinking about just smartphone users in general, they're going to be in countries such as India, much more than they're going to be in countries such as the US. This is really, if you're thinking about reaching the masses in terms of users, the emerging markets are the countries to look at. So just to clarify emerging markets a little bit more, so we focus on India, because as you saw, that was the big country lighting up, and that's where the huge amounts of people are coming online every year. However, if you extend it, India is only like, depending on how you define it, maybe 20% of the whole emerging markets group of countries. There's a lot of mid-sized and smaller emerging markets, and if you add all of those up, they add up to a lot, a lot of people. And the big ones are obviously like Brazil, Indonesia is very big as well, Mexico, there's a bunch of them that are pretty big. But yeah, India is kind of an easy focus for us because it's by far the biggest of those. So then we're going to be talking a little bit about Files Go. So before going into that, I think it's useful also to describe a little bit more what's different about people with smartphones in India, in particular kind of those new users, in comparison to people in the US for example. There's a couple of differences. One is they tend to have smartphones that on average have lower specs, are a lot cheaper. You can buy a great smartphone for like $30. So it's a very different type of experience. So a lot slower, older versions of the operating system, less storage, et cetera. Then there's also less connectivity. Connectivity is getting better very quickly. There's a carrier called Geo in India which is providing 4G to quite a lot of users already. But in general it's a very good assumption to take that the internet experience there is going to be a lot more intermittent and a lot more costly and people are going to be a lot more data conscious than people in the US are. Here we kind of make the simple assumption that people will always have access to the internet. That's not the right assumption to make in India. You should kind of assume that people might have internet access on a day-to-day basis but perhaps not in the exact moment that they might need it. So when you're building products it's something that's very good to be aware of. Other differences are obviously there's a high diversity of languages. India itself I believe has 20 plus languages and that's just one country of all the emerging markets. So very quickly, whereas with kind of US and Europe to a certain extent you can get away with English, that doesn't work as much for emerging markets. So you gotta think about a lot more diversity in terms of languages. So then files go. There's one particular insight that we found that drove us building this app. It's an app that we released eight weeks ago. I'll talk a little bit more about the launch and the things around that in a bit. But the kind of the insight that drove us to build this was this and very similar insights that we got from other pieces of research is people in emerging markets in India are running out of storage space all the time and I run out of storage space on my phone which has like 32 or 64 gig of storage on it. But that's maybe like once a month or so and I clean it up and it's okay. In India there's a lot of people that have this problem every single day. So they can't receive WhatsApp messages, they can't install an app, they can't watch a movie that they wanna download. Like they run into issues with storage every single day using their smartphone. So that's a pretty serious issue and it's on a whole different scale than it would be an issue for us. So we built Files Go. We kind of focus on three areas. One is already, one I already talked about. We focus on cleaning storage so it helps people free up their phone to be able to download more stuff, use it more, make it faster, et cetera. It also allows you to browse files for people that don't have a laptop which is the vast majority of people that use our app. They store kind of all their important documents and all their files on their phone which is kind of a pretty insecure place to store all of your files obviously because if you lose your phone or it breaks, you lose it. But it also makes that kind of file management and finding your files, viewing your movies, your music, et cetera. So much more important than it would be for us. Then there's one more piece and this is something that you see in India a lot. It's extremely common behavior that we don't really know here that's offline sharing. So again, if you have a big video on your phone and your buddy also wants to watch the video, what we would do is we would send him the YouTube link or basically tell him where to watch it. If your internet is costly and if your internet is slow, you're not gonna wanna do that every time. So the solution there is to share these things offline. I have a video on my phone, I can pass it to you without making any connection to the internet. So those are kind of the three feature areas that we built into FilesGo. Quick side track, by the way. So FilesGo is an app that I've led end to end. There's also other apps that I've worked on such as YouTube Go, which is a YouTube version for emerging markets. And some apps that never released that I can't say much about because they never got out. But this is kind of the biggest product that I've worked on end to end. So I'm gonna talk about this because it's what I know most about. So we had a very successful launch. Something I'm obviously very proud of. We launched in early December. We got a 4.6 rating, which for Google apps, in particular, is very, very high. We got more than 10 million installs in a month, which again, 10 million users is quite nice of a base to start out with. So yeah, we were all very, very happy. And I think through this day, the team is extremely happy with where we are, which is great for the motivation in team and kind of looking back on the work we've done and seeing that it worked out well. So now I'm going to talk about five things I learned while building this app. Feel free to interrupt me, by the way, anywhere that you wanna ask a question or wanna know more about a certain topic. These are somewhat random topics that I thought about that I had kind of top of mind that I learned. So I'll walk through those and then tell you what I learned in these areas. But if you have any other questions about the process, please feel free to ask. Globally, but not in China. That's a good question. We're definitely, like China, we're super interested to work in China and to make it work for China. Obviously there is, it can be a little difficult, but it's definitely something we're also looking at. So it really depends on how you calculate team size. In terms of engineers, I think we have pure engineering, it's really difficult to say. I would say the whole team is like 25 people, but pure engineering working on the app itself will be like 10. Then we would have like five more that worked on that offline sharing technology, which is something that we use in our app, but also in other apps such as YouTube Go. Then obviously you have things such as your QA team, your testing team, which is another few folks that we have. Then there's marketing, there's product management, there's the designers. So I would say the whole team, let's say 25 or so. December, yes, that's right. But there are a lot of apps which do the same thing and share it for example. Yeah, that's right, yeah. What is the difference between the two? I'm going to talk a little bit about that actually. I have a quick question after one month, you're 10 million plus students, do you know the breakdown by emerging market? 70% India, something like that, yeah. I think it's India, Brazil, Mexico, US. That's kind of the top four we have right now, sure. With those demographics, was there anything that surprised you in terms of, oh, we're getting a lot of older people or we're getting younger people and that wasn't quite what you thought of? Anything that surprised me in terms of demographics? Not necessarily surprising, but it's very clear that your early adopters are kind of men age 20, basically, right? That's the early adopter group. You see your kind of share of women growing from 3% slowly to five, to seven, to 10, to 15. So that's a very clear demographic shift that we see. Beyond that, so we're getting more and more India focused in terms of our demographics. I kind of hadn't really expected that. Like I knew already obviously that India was a big thing, but I was kind of hoping in a certain way that it would be more geographically spread than it is with some, it's not 70% by the way, but I think about half of our users are in India, which is a lot. Yep, sorry? So we got a lot of press. We did, we got all the big global tech websites they wrote about us, like TechCrunch and what are they called, The Verge, those kind of websites. We got a lot of local Indian press, like kind of the major local newspapers wrote about it. We had this cool feature, which I'll also talk more about. Like I'm gonna talk a lot more about all of this stuff, but a cool feature that kind of really made for a great PR story in India, which a lot of media also in the media picked up. We did a little bit of marketing. Most of our growth came from organic, so like newspapers, et cetera, but we also targeted some ads online to get more users in specific areas. Yep. Right now this is only an Android app, kind of for two reasons. One is, and what is pretty big in emerging markets, like the $30 phone will predominantly be Android phones. And the second thing is the kind of things that we try to do, so cleaning up your storage, sharing offline. Apple has the AirDrop, yeah, but you can't really build a good cleanup app on iOS because of some system restrictions and you can't really build a good offline sharing app because the system already has it, which would be a good reason not to build it and because of system restrictions again. Yep. Yes, it's like a 30 meter, so that's what, 100 feet radius, yes. Yep. Yeah, we do. Yeah, we do. Yeah, I think like after two more questions, I'm gonna go deeper into this because a lot of questions will get answered as I go through the rest of my presentation, but we do have a researcher full-time that sits in India. We have part of our QA team in India as well. We had one of our designers in India. We actually had a small engineering team in India at the very beginning, but that actually proved to be very difficult for in terms of collaboration. But yeah, so we do have a certain amount of people in India as well. Yep. You think much about on these users, obviously that's a big question for Google, how does that interfere with this or is it very separate, this is just local storage? Yeah, it's a very interesting question. So my assumption would have been they're not big cloud users, right? Internet connectivity is limited, et cetera, but I was proven wrong by data. They're like Google Drive is extremely big in India. A lot of people use it. It's the main reason that people use it is because if all your important files are on your phone, as I already said, it's pretty scary, right? You lose your phone and everything's gone. So people use these kind of cloud backup solutions as safekeeping for important documents. So there's something that's definitely on our mind here. Okay, I'm gonna continue. I think a lot of questions will get answered here as well. So first about understanding your audience. It's kind of a no-brainer, right? As a product manager, know your user. But just to hone in on how important it is, I'm gonna talk a little bit about that. We do a lot of research and some things that we found that were surprising and that helped us build a great product. Obviously the first thing that I already said is that people run out of storage all the time. If without that insight, the product would not have existed. And because we know this, it's a product that's extremely successful and gets a lot of users and gets talked about a lot. So that kind of insight was critical for us to know to be able to know that there might be a product here. A second kind of random insight is on a lot of street corner shops, you can go and you can pay the guy behind the desk and he will clean your phone for you. So yeah, he will take your phone for a few hours. He will delete some stuff. Maybe he does a factory reset. He delete some apps, put some other apps on it. Some of these guys, they told us that they put the phone next to the air conditioning for an hour and then you come back and you pay him a couple rupees and you get your phone back cleaned up. And that is not like one guy that did that. It's kind of spread throughout the country. You can find in every neighborhood, you can find some shops that do this type of thing for you. And then another thing is people get a lot of good morning messages. It's a very, very popular phenomenon in India. I wasn't aware of this and I didn't know this concept. So people in India use WhatsApp a lot. I actually use WhatsApp a lot myself as well, but it's extremely popular in India. And people tend to be on a lot of different groups with a lot of people on it. Not necessarily all people that they know, but just kind of social groups. And in all these groups every morning, a lot of people will send a good morning message to kind of brighten the day at the start of the day. We send to look like this. So it's a good morning. It has a little motivational text very often, a cup of coffee. So this is kind of a very kind of everyday thing and in India, everybody gets hundreds of these, which was another interesting insight for us because we actually built a feature for this. Because one thing with this is if you get 100 a day, your phone is gonna get full pretty quickly. So we built a machine learning feature in our app that detects these kind of images and allows users to delete them in bulk if they want to free up space. And I was talking about a PR story to your question. So this made for a great story for the press as well, right? It's such a fun story and it's so much fun that we can use technology to help users with the problems these cause as well. So these are kind of just three random insights through research that I would have never been able to guess myself. So then how to do research? There's many different ways to do research, but in particular, if you're talking about users that are unlike yourself or like are in environments that are unlike yourself, I think going out there and talking to kind of the audience that you think your target user is is extremely important and it's something that has brought a ton of value for us. So what we do is we go out there with the team. I go out there, we have a researcher that joins us obviously. We have some engineers that tend to join. Designers always love to join as well. So we're going out there with like a small group of our team. To India, for example. And then there's a couple different types of research or interviews that we do. One type is field interviews. This is the type where kind of I take, we write research questions beforehand that we want to ask to people. I take like a notebook with me and I go out on the street, like to a market or to a mall or to a shop or whatever. And I just like woke up to people and started asking them questions and trying to develop an understanding of what they do on their phone and what they do through that kind of means. That can be super insightful. You ask people like what apps do they use? What is the last app that they use? How many images do they have on their phone? What is their favorite thing to do with their phone? Like you can think of a lot of different questions that might lead you to a better understanding. And this is indeed like we get a ton of insight from just talking to people, just being there and talking to people. People tend to be pretty interested as well. It's like, hey, what is this guy with this notebook doing here? So they like talking to you in general. For a limited amount of time, almost that. I think they'd like to talk to you for like five or 10 minutes. Then they get bored. It is kind of the general thing that happens. Then they're like, yeah, okay, if there's enough questions then they start doing something else. So that's kind of the other part of research that we do. We work with, sorry, yeah. It's a good question. So this is kind of what we call foundational research. So we would do this to gain kind of a general understanding of a certain topic, right? Once we feel we have a pretty strong grasp of that topic, we wouldn't necessarily continue to do that on that topic. However, if in the app we want to build out a new feature area that we don't know much about. So let's say we want to add chat to the app or something like that. We would probably do this similar type of interviews focused around that type of topic. There's other type of research which I'll talk about in a sec that we do continuously. Yep. I'm sorry, get that. Yeah, a sample size. That's a good question. So what we do in general, and it's probably not scientifically correct, but we on a specific question or topic, we try to get like 10 people or so to answer the question. That will obviously lead to bias. I actually think that the most bias you get is from the location where you are and not necessarily sample size. So for example, if we do go to one mall and ask 10 different people there, there might be a specific type of people that lives there. Specific age group might be male dominant, for example, might be very urban rather than rural. So I think rather than big sample size, I think it's very important to try and get diverse insights from a lot of different places. So the other types of interviews that we do at this stage is recruited interviews. There we work with an agency and we ask them to recruit people. There's a lot of agencies to do this type of work. We get like a tiny little office somewhere in India in a city and we have people come in. These are like completely random people. So it must be fun to recruit as well. It's like the guy that's like the baker or it's like some student or a sales manager. Like it's just kind of a completely or like school kids. It's a completely kind of random grab from society. They come in and we interview them for an hour or so. So they can't walk away after 10 minutes, which is great. So we can ask them more questions and we can dig a lot deeper into certain subjects. What this also allows you to do is if you have a prototype of your app or like mocks or sketches of what you're thinking about, you can test it with those people and you can get direct feedback from what you believe your target audience is. So these are kind of two types of research that we do early stages. To your point, things that we continuously do is for example, when we build a new feature, we try to test that with users before we push it live to a global audience. So that's kind of something that we do continuously. Something I'm looking forward to very much right now is a research effort that we're gonna do in about a month from now where we're gonna interview a bunch of people that have been using our app for a month and get insights from them about how they're using the app, what they like most, et cetera. Because despite us getting quite a lot of feedback, really understanding those returning users is pretty difficult to get at. Normally, people are not willing to give this information out. So do you attract them by some vouchers or something? I would say that's not my experience necessarily. I think a lot of people are very, like helping out are pretty keen. I think the agencies that we work with for the kind of those one hour interviews, they do give like something to the people that are gonna interview it, but it's just a very small amount of money or it can be like a small gift. And people generally love to kind of travel from very far to be part of this kind of experience because it's something that they don't know and they're pretty excited about. That's what you mean about the emerging markets, but not in general? Fair enough. I have less experience doing research in US. So that might be different. I think you're gonna be paying a lot more money probably to get US users to interview. Yes. Then the final thing is immerse. And that's kind of just like try and get as many experiences like local experiences as you can. So for us, the typical thing that we would do is we would go to like a mobile shop, we would buy a $30 smartphone, get recommendations from the shop owner or get our phone cleaned. We give the guy our phone, we pay X amount of rupees and he cleans the phone for us and we see how that experiences. So these kind of things like trying to get the experience that local users might get. Then once you're launched, this changes quite a bit and the type of insight and the type of methods you use can switch quite a bit. These are for example, play store reviews. On the left is a good one. Luckily the vast majority we get is good ones but there's also quite a few bad ones. We have 100,000 reviews by now so you can imagine there's not all of them are positive. I've read a couple hundred of the positive ones. They get pretty boring pretty quickly and you kind of get the gist of it. The negative ones, every time somebody writes a negative review I have it set up so that it goes straight into my inbox. So every morning I spend a couple of minutes reading negative reviews about our app which is a pretty depressing experience every day but it's extremely useful to kind of get that intuitive sense of what people are not super happy about in your app. So this is definitely a use source right now of user feedback and of user understanding. It's just kind of the reviews and the feedback and the comments on forums that people are giving about our app. If possible, we also try to reach out back to these people and it actually proves quite difficult. There's a lot of different ways in which you can do this but it's pretty difficult to get to a good conversation I find online. So that's another reason why I'm like extremely interested in again getting out in the field and interviewing actual people that are using our app because that will get us a much better understanding still. Yep, question. Do you know where Eagle comes from? We get, I think the country is attached when we read those reviews. I think it sounds like a lot of your research was done in India with Indian people. So that is probably something. Did you see that specific comment referred to basic? Was that reflected in India or is that maybe a geographical specific? So this comment is actually something that we see quite a bit. So we're focused primarily on cleaning storage. We have file management capabilities in there but they're pretty basic right now. So we do see this as kind of a, that's a comment that we would get fairly globally but there are definitely geographical differences. For one, people from Russia tend to be more negative. You can see the average rating is a little lower. And we can also see like differences in the way that people use the app. We see, for example, that people in India use offline sharing quite a bit. Whereas in Brazil, much less so. This is one example but there are definitely geographical differences. Yeah, question. Do you have already? Yeah, it is actually possible to read all negative ones because the volume of them is not so big for us. So that is possible. But you're right about reading all of them. That is not possible. And we have NLP tools that do this for us and that give us a kind of a sentiment analysis, those type of things. I don't really use them to be honest. I don't find them that insightful. I find that they miscategorize quite often. You kind of lose the subtlety of the comments. So yeah, we have those kind of tools but I'm not a big fan of it myself. Yep. Sorry? Yeah, that's true. Yeah, we're lucky that... How would you manage that situation? So we have internal to Google a customer support team that helps with kind of analyzing this type of thing. I think given that the majority of our reviews are positive, like they're not doing that much. I think if at Google, we would launch a product that gets a lot of negative reviews, the customer support team would probably shift their focus and help out on that a lot. To kind of understand it better, reach out to users more, et cetera. Yeah, so I would say, yeah, we would spend a lot more time, both our team as well as the customer support team, on the reviews if most of them would be negative. Question? Yes? Yeah, so question is if we want to do research outside of India, I think we're going to have research outside of India. I definitely want to. So to be honest, I was a strong advocate all the time of like, hey guys, let's look broader than India. It's kind of the same as building a product for first world users and looking only at the US, right? So I say like, yeah, let's look at other countries as well. Somewhat unfortunately now, the bulk of our users are also in India, so it kind of pushes us to India again. But yeah, I'm for example, very interested to see, to understand usage in Brazil better. So a very big market for us as well. And behavior and market dynamics, et cetera, are completely different in Brazil. So yeah, I hope that we do research in Brazil as well, reasons. Yes? So what is the difference between Brazil and India? I can call it like, so I want to do research to understand it better, but I can call it the couple ones that I know. One is there's more Wi-Fi availability in Brazil. Two is people are not familiar with the concept of offline sharing. So that's not really something that they do very much. Three is in terms of storage cleanup, I think Brazil, they like it even more and they do it even more than people in India do it. Good morning messages. I don't think they're a thing from Brazil. So even though our designer, our design lead is from Brazil and he has sent some, I forgot the word for it, but he has sent some Brazilian Portuguese good morning messages as well, but they tend to be more rare there. So yeah, those are kind of the differences that we know, but we want to do research to really understand Brazilian behavior better. Yes, question? You shared your problem statement. How did you identify that if people say, we want to do something in India, find out what we should do, or did they say we want more adoption or we want more customers or we want to drive eventually engaged with the brand? Yeah, it's a good question. So how do we define our problem statement? So I think this would be different to many different scenarios, right? But the way it went for us is we wanted to spend more time focusing on emerging markets. So there was kind of a strategic effort that formed around that within Google. Then what happened within that strategic efforts as it kind of grew is that there was a big demand for ideas. So we had a long list of ideas for different products and different kind of market analysis that led to us thinking there was a product there. And so I was one of the people, back then I wasn't finance actually, I was one of the people that came up with kind of a market analysis around the way people use files on their phone. And that kind of started gaining traction a little bit. The head of emerging markets told me, why don't you do more research on it? Why don't you work together with a designer and an engineer to see if you can build a prototype and see if there's something here. And that kind of started rolling that way. So for us it's basically like one, we wanna focus on this as Google because a lot of the users are going to be there. Two, everybody share your ideas. And then three, see if you can get these ideas rolling and the ones that show promise, we're gonna go forward with them. Yes. So when you look at market insights, you share that with the other products that are being developed. If they're also working on a different app, are you pulling all of your market insights? Yeah, definitely. Yep, we share, I mean, so right now we're at the emerging market organization is pretty big, so we don't share all the research all the time anymore, but we have mailing lists for research where like if we would do a big research report, for example, better understanding, I don't know, good morning messages, I'm just saying something. And we get a really deep understanding in that we have a 20 page report, 20 slide report, we do slides in the know. We would send that out to the mailing list and people could read it. Okay, one other very thing that you can do after you've launched that you cannot do before you're launched is data analysis. This is definitely something that I find very useful as well, understanding which features are being used, for example. You can get a very clear insight into this is the stuff that people use, this is the stuff that people use less. It's also very important that you make sure that you get this right and you get all your kind of logging right before you launch your app. We didn't do that as we had something to be lacking. So it took me until last week basically to understand what things in our app were actually being used and what things were not. So that's kind of for me very clear insight that I'm taking with me for any future product that I built. Even though like at a few weeks before launch like logging is kind of the last thing you wanna think about, there's so much going on. Making sure you get that in good shape is gonna be extremely valuable to you the months after. So this is kind of a graph that just shows for different features that didn't mark the features, but for different features, how many people are using those features? I think it's, I would have to guess, I think it's people taking an action on files. So like deleting a file or sharing a file, those kind of things. We only look at this, we can only look at this in like bulk. So only when like a thousand users or so do take a certain action. So you only get like the high level picture but it still tells you quite a lot. Yeah, question. The most critical activity that would have been the most difficult to do without the funding. Oh, good question. I would say the research probably. So what I talked about previously, like getting an understanding of the user. So I think you can do it, to be honest, I think you can do it pretty cheaply. Like if you fly three people out to India, you can get a ticket for $1,000. It's not super cheap, but it's so kind of doable. Staying there is not gonna cost you a lot. And you can stay there for a long time. At very low cost. Maybe you can Airbnb your own apartment and you can pay it off. So I think making sure you do that research and spending time and effort on that, that I would consider most critical and was definitely made easy for us by having Google behind us. Because we have a researcher that does his full time that can help us. There's a lot of things to get arranged and get made easier for you. So yeah, that will be my answer. All right, second insight would be focusing on a big need. Feels kind of like, I think it's kind of another very obvious thing, but we've definitely built products which didn't really focus on a big need. Just sounded cool or felt cool or felt like something new. So the thing with storage cleanup is that it's such a tangible thing and it's such a clear problem that people are having. And that is a big need. And one discussion that we've had a lot is how many, like is it bad for your product to have multiple kind of purposes, to have multiple feature areas, et cetera. There's a lot of debate around this. The jury's out, but there's clear products that are extremely successful that do like a hundred different things. WeChat, for example, I believe is one of the most popular if not the most popular product in China. They do messaging, they're a wallet and you can book your doctor's appointment through the app. It has augmented reality or the working on augmented reality. So there's a lot going on in kind of one product. Then on the other hand, you have like products such as a note pad or something, right? Which are extremely focused on doing one thing and doing one very simple, narrow thing very well. This is, yeah, may not seem like such an important thing, but this is something that we think about a lot. Should you focus on one thing or is it okay to kind of diversify a little and do multiple things? My takeaway that what I've learned from doing a couple products is I think it's okay to do a couple of different things and probably even good because you make your app more useful. It has like more use cases. However, you definitely need to focus on one thing that is a really big need, something that people really, really care about, which for us is storage. And so that need can be technical. Again, for us is people having storage issues. It's kind of a technical type of problem. It can be more psychological, right? Like social interaction, messaging apps or social networks, that's the needs that they fulfill. Can be financial as well. Saving money, making money can be a big need for people. So I don't think there's kind of one answer to what that needs, what type of need it should be, but I think it's very important while you're developing your product. So ask yourself, like, is there kind of a critical need that a critical problem that I'm solving for people with this product? A third thing, again, not entirely scientific, but this is something that I believe in and I've seen work very well for our product, is add some joy and rewards to your product. We're all kind of emotional beings as humans and I think it's very easy to get people a little more attached to the product that you're building by making it a fun experience, something that has a little character, et cetera. So this is something that we've definitely focused on a lot and in particular in comparison to a lot of Google products that take a bit more of a functional approach. We've definitely also put a lot of thinking and effort into making it more of a kind of rewarding experience. Very closely related to that is celebrate achievements. It's another one of those kind of emotional things that the main purpose of our app is to delete things that are on your phone, which is not that great to do, right? It's like, damn, I'm never gonna see this thing again. Do I really wanna delete it? So it's kind of an anxiety inducing thing when you go through that step process. So what we do is after you've taken a decision, okay, these things are gonna delete, we really create a moment there to celebrate that you freed up a lot of space and it brought you a lot of good stuff. And I think that works really well. It's very clear in our app. Yeah, what's your question? Yeah, I was gonna ask, what are you doing? Yes, I'm giving you an example in one second. So it's very clear in our app. You guys should try it if you haven't. That this kind of brings, it brings quite a bit of joy and fun to do something as kind of anxiety inducing and boring as freeing up space on your phone. So this is the example that we do. These are overlays that we do on the screen where we show how much megabytes you freed up. We show little animations that kind of bring a little bit of joy to that moment of freeing up space. And our engineers were extremely skeptical about this initially. They were like, ah, why are we doing this stuff? It's not important. It doesn't help people free up more space. But kind of the design team in particular like hammered on it and really wanted to have this in there and it's done a lot of good for us. And the engineering team is definitely also bought into this now and very much on board and loves this kind of stuff. And measuring the impact is definitely qualitative. So through research, through interviewing people, seeing the type of comments that we get, you get these type of comments as great, like it's so much fun to be doing this. Obviously, it's not that much fun to clean up space on your phone, right? So that's clearly from these kind of things that we get that type of feedback. Yep, question. Monetization is not necessarily something that we're focused on right now. For us, and I think that's a general thing in tech, a lot of companies focus on growing first. Once you have a big skill, you try and see what monetization strategies might be. So we might start thinking about it over the course of the year. Right now it would not be your focus. And I think even from a financial perspective, it would be kind of the wrong decision to make to try and monetize at this point. I wouldn't say so. I think if you look at any startup out there, that are trying to build consumer products, I think there's very few products that would try to monetize from point one. There's big companies out there that are still losing a lot of money and don't have their monetization strategy in place that are doing very well. Think about some right-sharing companies, for example. So I think a general strategy in tech is first get to a big user base. Once you have that, there will be a lot of monetization opportunity. So you mentioned the disagreement with the engineering team design. Just curious to hear about some of the challenges you might face during the project. Dark days. Oh, that's an interesting question. Dark days and disagreements. I'm gonna talk a little bit more about team in the end, but this I'm not necessarily gonna talk about. So let me quickly address that. So we definitely had a period where we were focusing on kind of a different type of, like we positioned the app differently and it didn't work, like it clearly didn't work. We lost some people on our team during those periods. There were definitely a lot of people that were not very motivated. So how do we handle it? Yeah, I guess, like staying positive, trying new things, kind of accepting and acknowledging like failure is always gonna be part of the process. But yeah, those things are gonna be part of the process and they're never gonna be great. We make it very clear like in our team strategy and like in our team meetings that we should expect to fail and we're gonna try a lot of things. We're never gonna be entirely sure if they're gonna work and kind of have an expectation that a bunch of things that we try are gonna fail. That's that I think that kind of depth going into the process like that will definitely help you a lot. One more question. Yes. On the related note, you also said that there were a couple of apps in the next billion units that didn't see the light of the day. Yes. What did you decide not to like spend good time off the bad end and actually shut the product down? Okay, so why did we shut down so many other projects? So I worked on one product that never saw the light of day. It was very clear from kind of when we started testing, so we went out to India and we started testing this with like a thousand people. It was just very clear that it got like zero traction. People didn't really get it. After two weeks, nobody was using it anymore. So it was actually very easy decision to make to be honest because we knew like if we're gonna lie to you, it's not gonna work. It was difficult like at what exact moment are you gonna make the decision? And that I think caused a lot of confusion within the team and we could have handled better. So at the first time that it doesn't work, you can say, oh, it's just because this and this and this needs to be improved, right? So you try that and then you try second time. It doesn't work again. You see like nobody's using it. Then you ask yourself, okay, wait, are we gonna like spend two more months building this and this and this to see what works? Or is this the point where we're gonna say, we just don't have the thing that we're trying right now it's just not gonna work. So that is just an extremely difficult question to answer. For us, I think after about let's say, after some like two to three months of like being pretty sure that what we were building wasn't working, that's when we made the decision, like we're gonna make a pivot, we're gonna try and something else. That was by the way, that is very closely related to your question. That was a difficult time. It's just not fun for anybody to be working for a year or something and you see it doesn't work, right? I would say the product manager makes the call. Obviously kind of executives have to do with it as well because they spent, executives are kind of like financiers, right? Like investors. So obviously they spent money or their team on doing something that they also believed in and they don't see working out and then PM says like, hey, let's stop this. It's a pretty important question for them as well. So they'll have a big say in that too. For is network effects. So this just comes back to a question also that was asked previously. Network effects, so this is the thing where a product becomes more valuable the more people have it, right? There's a lot of big platforms that have big network effects that work very well. I think again, right sharing are typical apps that have big network effects. If you look at our app, storage doesn't have network effects, file browsing doesn't have network effects. Offline sharing does have network effects. Offline sharing is really only useful if everybody around you also uses the same technology to do offline sharing. There's about five different technologies out there to do offline sharing. So this is a pretty difficult market. What you see, very interesting with offline sharing is that it's extremely local. You have some cities where people use technology A and some cities where people use technology B and that is kind of very clearly network effects in action. Because if I'm in a technology A city and I think technology B is better, I need to convince everybody around me that B is better before it actually starts working for me. So I think network effects can be very much of your advantage if you're one of the first to build the network and it can be very difficult if you're coming into a place where there already are quite established network effects. So that is something that I'm very aware of particularly with offline sharing where in some regions we see it hasn't really taken off yet and there it might definitely be to our advantage. In some reasons the network effects are very strong and it will be very difficult for us to get some usage there. How do we deal with competition? So we don't, and I think there's kind of also company philosophy. We try not to be competition focused. It's very easy to kind of start looking at competition and see what they do, et cetera. But we try to stay super focused on the user. So how we deal with competition, we don't really deal with it. We just kind of look at the users, see what problems they have, see if there's any open problems that we might be able to solve better and that's what we will be focusing on. But do you also check your company? Do we also check what? So you do analysis because people who complain what they don't have, that's what we do. Yeah, we also look at, we definitely do competitor reviews. However, they're not a very important thing that we do. It's kind of one report that we would generate at some point in a cycle. It doesn't really get looked at that much even. I would say like if you compare looking at competitors versus doing user research, we definitely do at least 10 times of the amount of user research versus looking at competitors. And probably more than that. So I think by the way, I also got the last time I gave a speech here that people were pretty interested in how we think about competition. Honestly, that's just, that's just not that of an important topic for us. And I think that's the right thing to do in particular when trying to build new technology is not trying to look too much at competition because it will also narrow what you believe the solutions are. Question, yeah. Yes, yes, definitely. So you're asking was where network affects one of the reasons that you focus on a specific feature? Definitely, we made a clear decision to focus on a problem, the storage problem that did not rely on network effects. So it would be easier to gain a large audience with. Yes. Okay, final slide. This is something that, so my background again is I've done product management for a couple of years but before that, I did finance a little bit of sales and marketing. So you have that kind of your skill set and you think you're pretty good at some things. I read a bunch of books about design. I did some programming. But in the end, your designers will know a lot more about design than you know about design. Your engineers will know a lot more about engineering than you know about engineering. Same with your researcher. Same with your marketing team. They will all like know a lot more about their specialties than you know about their specialties. There are some rare examples, right? Like if you're a marketeer and you switch to product management, you might know more about marketing than you marketeer but those things are gonna be pretty rare. So what the question that raises is why are you the one making decisions? And should you be the one making decisions? And what is actually the value that you're adding in the decision making process given that so many other people know so much more about all the stuff that you do. What I kind of came through the conclusion is that a very important role that you can play is getting all those people together and having them kind of debate on certain topics and certain decisions. And I use the word debate here because people get pretty fierce about it. They have strong opinions. And a designer will think about things very differently than an engineer will think about things. A marketeer will come in with a completely different angle and having those kind of debates and having people kind of passionately discuss what they think the right decision would be, what they think the focus areas should be, et cetera. That I think is extremely valuable and something that my team has definitely tried to encourage a lot and definitely happens a lot. Can be extremely difficult as well because you kind of want to make a decision at some point and then they're like everybody disagreeing and the hundred opinions going on. But sort of the way that I think about this is you try and get all these people with their expertise together, get all the opinions on a table, get them discussing all the different angles to a certain topic. And then with all that input, you kind of sit down and spend another hour like writing it all down and then thinking through it and thinking what the right outcome might be given all the input that you've gotten. So that's kind of where I see the PM role very much is somebody that gets the whole team together, gets all the opinions on a table, all the different angles to a problem and tries to make a decision based on that. You also have PMs which trust their intuition more and which are kind of more, which will just say I think this because of the things that I know from the past. So I'm gonna make this decision. Yeah, I think again that it's, you shouldn't trust your own intuition too much. You will be wrong in a lot of cases. And I think you will start realizing you're wrong as you get all these different opinions on a table and start thinking about topics a little more. Question, yes. So how has product management changed the perspective of how I think about these products from my previous world? Well, finance is pretty clear. We were pretty into, so when it wasn't finance, we kind of had to sing where products that are very young and pretty small, we wouldn't bother too much with them. It's kind of, they're still growing and they need room. But obviously we would pretty quickly be thinking about monetization, for example. And I now honestly believe that a focus of monetization too early in the process is, financially speaking, a bad decision. So that's kind of definitely one way that I started thinking about it a little bit differently. Then compared to sales and marketing is a little different because it wasn't as product related to stuff that was in McDonn. I think compared to marketing, you probably very quickly start to see marketing as kind of the main growth engine for the product. Whereas for example, things such as referral features or business developments or press releases, those kind of things can be at least as big as kind of the more traditional marketing efforts might do for you. So yeah, taking kind of my finance and marketing hats, those would be things that I'd change perspective on a little bit. Question? So part of your PM responsibility that you mentioned, can you tell me your experiences with over-analysis of certain features or managing the teams over-analysis even when you felt like them to help you in new programming? So over-analysis, you mean kind of doing too much analysis on a certain thing? Yeah, or even a feature, or you know how you mentioned the disruptive feature with the celebration? Yeah, yeah. Something that could be easily over-analysed if I were looking at that. So what would you over-analysed? The decision or the data behind it or what would you over-analysed? Even the debate. The debate, yeah. You mentioned the engineer, you weren't really that good. Yeah, no, I get your question. You did not do it before, you're pre-designed, one-designed. Yep, no, it's a really good question. So how to not over-analysed things? So this is a balance, and it's a balance, again, that for example, when we talk about team strategy and our team vision, it's something that we talk about a lot. You're never gonna have enough information to make a great decision. Like you're always going to have to make a decision on data that feels a little too limited. Like I can hardly mention any decision that we've made where that was not the case. You want more data, you want more research, you wanna ask users, you wanna get more opinions, like there's always kind of more to learn before you make a decision. Yeah, the reality is, and I think that's something that PMOG also definitely has to do. After a certain amount of data, a certain amount of debate, make a decision, some people are gonna disagree. There's always, like there's always some people that don't agree with the decision. Some decisions, the majority won't agree. So just at some point, say, we have enough inputs or we've spent enough time on it, we got a bunch of inputs. It's time to make a decision because we're not gonna delay this another three months to make this decision. It's, I think this is an excellent question. Like this is such a balance kind of thing. Like we have engineers that get mad and they say, like, oh, we didn't think about this decision too much. And they might be right. Like maybe we should have thought that decision through more. Then there might be another decision where we delayed it for months because we wanted to get more data, more insight. And then in retrospect, you're like, damn, we should have made the decision two months earlier. So it's a balance. It's a tricky balance and one that's very core to PMOG. Yes, Chris. A quick follow-up from this question and making decisions. So even if you look at the emerging markets, even if you look at India itself, there's quite a diversity in the kind of, or even the type of user, let alone languages and cultures. Definitely, yes. So did it help to focus on a specific kind of, for example, you have the urban English speaking. Yeah. In India versus probably from a smaller town for whom English is quite less from point of view. There's also the localization team. So is there a specific sort of typical user that the next one billion people have in mind or do you also have to take certain fails? Yeah, so yeah, I completely agree. India is almost kind of a bunch of different countries together, right? Like it's, okay. Where did you grow up? I don't know. Okay, nice. Cool. So we do, in India, we do a lot of research in a lot of different places to try and get diverse insights. But we are definitely super focused on India. So there's a certain balance there again, between, we don't necessarily have one person in mind. We have kind of this. Yeah, not even death. So we have this persona slide that I have like in the product vision deck that it has like a house mom from San Diego and kind of a computer engineer from Hyderabad, India and a, I don't know, like a student from Rio. So yeah, we don't actually have that much of a specific person in mind. We do think about certain age ranges. So we're more focused on people in their 20s and early 30s because there's just more of them. There will be more of a typical user. Then there's kind of the trade-off between are we gonna focus our research on men or are we gonna also do a lot of research on women? Early research, we focus more on men because those are the early adopters. Currently we're doing research which is we're gonna have one research initiative which is entirely focused on women. So we don't have one persona in mind. We diversify the type of insights that we get. Yes, question? No, we have it. And that's kind of one of the lucky things about being at Google. We have this up in 18 languages. So we're pretty well covered in India. Then again, even in India, there's a couple of languages that we don't yet support. But we're definitely, local languages are a big thing for us. And there's also this thing where, some people like to have a mix of English and Hindi, for example, there's also this thing where we try and focus a little more on symbols because not everybody will be reading as well. So there's a lot of considerations that go into that. But the general thing is, yeah, we just were lucky enough that we were able to translate it into a lot of languages. If we wouldn't be so lucky, then I would say, focus on English, but make sure the symbolism in your app is extremely clear. Since most of your recent work for India, how much? Yeah, how much time have we spent catering for other parts of the world? Not that much. To be honest, not that many things in the app are catered to specific countries. I would say that kind of good morning meme detection thing that we did. There was fairly focused on India, but we also generalized it to say kind of, any picture that is low resolution and has a caption on it, that we consider kind of a meme and that might be kind of the low quality kind of stuff that you get a lot of during a day that you might not need on your phone forever. So we didn't really localize, we tried not to localize too much and try and keep it kind of as broad as possible. Yes, question. A, B testing. We don't currently. It's interesting because I think people would probably consider Google like, super data minded, everything. We tested if it's blue or red, AB. No, we don't do that in our app currently. We are thinking about doing that in the future. I think this is a personal thing and I might change my mind after we do AB testing, but I also think it might make you a little lazy about making decisions where instead of thinking through what might actually work best, you just try everything all the time and you see what you get the best numbers on. So I think that it might also make you a little lazy in your decisions and I also am not sure if you can always make a decision based on things like CTR or those type of metrics. That's that where we are gonna do it, yeah. In terms of like machine learning or? I don't know. Yes, I don't really know what counts as automation and what does not, but this is definitely kind of something that we run in the background kind of to detect those images. Beyond that, not much I would say no. I'm also wondering, you know, the cloud as a storage is something that people... So whether we're getting a certain reluctance about us managing our storage. Not really, to be honest. The thing in the eyes that Google has an exceptional reputation, like people really, really appreciate Google really trust it. It's very highly trusted. So people trust us to do well with the stuff that's on their phone. The other thing is there's also quite a lot of very untrustworthy software out there. So it is kind of the choice for users to use like a Google app versus something that is quite a bit more untrustworthy. It's pretty easy choice often to make. That's a question. Offline sharing. Whether privacy is an aspect of offline sharing. We haven't dug too deep into it. People share everything. And a lot of it is definitely stuff that is non-pirated, such as photos, videos they make, apps they make. Some of it might be pirated. We don't check, we cannot check that locally. It's kind of like a USB stick, right? If you put certain files on a USB stick, yes, some of it may be pirated, some of it may not. That's the question. So we did some ads. The majority is organic. So what we call organic is people finding our app through press or whatever and down on it. But yeah, we did do some ads. We might do some other kind of deals where we're pre-installed on phones, for example. We don't have paid referrals. It is something that we're interested in. We're also interested to see if we can do some of the referrals without paying for it. So I think people kind of unlock certain things in the app, for example. It's not something that Google has done before, so that would be kind of a first, but that I think we're pretty interested to experimenting with that. Because it's very easy to kind of throw money at the problem to buy users. We're gonna try a lot of different things to see how we could make this work better without spending anything per user. Next question. So on the decision on which different features to choose, it sounds like you did a lot of research as far as how you're growing markets are with market pandas, and then you did a lot of specific research in those markets. What I'm curious about is, how did you decide on potentially any features that these potential customers didn't know that they actually wanted? So for example, if I go to Italy, and I ask a guy in Italy, what's your favorite food? And he says pasta. You might not know what a hamburger is, and he might really like it. So did you guys go into that, or was it more such unique features that you heard about? No, no, no, it's definitely, so your question is, are you gonna look at what they currently use, or how do you figure out what might be something that they would use that they don't currently use? Yeah, what they would use. Yeah, it's definitely focused on the latter. Often you might end up with something that may be similar to something that's out there, but what we try to focus on is understanding the problems that people have. So really digging into that. So for example, the storage problem, that is definitely a problem-based kind of thing. And we came to a certain solution to that problem, which is there's other solutions out there to that problem, but to clearly take a very different approach to the problem than we are doing in our app. So, yeah, we try and be super focused on the problems and the behavior, and then see what kind of new type of solution might solve those problems for people, whether or not that may be similar to something that's out there. Yes, Christian? Adding into the previous question. So once you have, did you have a set of techniques for the problem designation on what should be the priority and what might have happened even before the user study? Process of elimination for what might be useful versus not. How did we go about that? So we tried different things. It became very clear very soon that this storage issue was just such a thing for people, right? Like the fact that they pay people in shops on a recurring basis to help them clean up their phone. Even before the user study. Before the user study? Yeah. So I did market analysis. I looked at what are currently popular apps, what is kind of the typical phone that's being used in those markets, and you can see how they got low space. So that type of analysis, understanding which technologies are available, which technologies are not. So for example, people do a lot of SD cards swaps. They buy a bunch of SD cards, they give them to their friends, they get them back, et cetera. So kind of doing more of a higher level market analysis of what is currently happening. That kind of gave us this area of topic around files and then interviewing people. It became very apparent that this cleaning thing is something that people are paying money for very often. People care about it a ton. It happens every day. So from those interviews, it became pretty clear that this would be something that we should be focusing on. Yes, question. That's right. Is that something that you guys thought of while you started developing the app or did you feel like? Yeah, Google Photos is definitely interesting and it's something that we're talking to them, et cetera. So Google Photos focuses on one thing and it's the photos and videos on your phone. Does it extremely well, right? But that's not necessarily, it's a share of the things that you have on your phone, but it's definitely not everything and it doesn't necessarily have to be a big share either for people in those markets. So for us, I think your question, it's your question kind of like would we have decided not to do it because they already did it? Is that what you're getting at? No, no, not at all, no. It was very clear to us that they were doing a subset of the problem that rely extremely heavily on connection, which is not really available that widely in emerging markets. And also in general, that's another thing, I think kind of a Google type of thing is one product would not really hold back another product to start developing. Even if there's overlap, we try not to say, hey, this product is this so don't build that. Like everybody gets kind of a try at building something new and seeing if they can get it successful. There's, by the way, there's some internal competition quite often as well where like app A and app B are doing something similar and obviously they want to do the best. You could say that's a good thing as well because like it drives people a little bit. Yeah, question in the back. Yep. What can I talk about the thought process? Is that your question? Yeah, so for me kind of the path to product, being in the long path, if you're going to see the whole thing of it. So as a, in high school, I kind of was doing computer stuff a lot, like I had a bunch of friends that were all kind of, we organized like LAN parties, which was a lot of fun. We were programming quite a bit. At some point we built a game and like everybody built like their own little AI for the different opponents in the game. We didn't really get very far with it, but anyway, like we were always kind of messing around with those kinds of things in high school. So back then it was kind of a very clear, like the technology part was very clear part of my life. Then I did economics, which kind of gives you a very clear kind of business and high level society kind of view of things, a little less related. But then I came to the, I did my master's thesis on open source software because I was still very interested in technology. That kind of made me want to go to a company like Google because I thought that there I can perhaps combine my kind of the broader business type of views with the technical excitements that I have. At Google I started in sales. It was kind of the thing I rolled into back in Amsterdam. Did that for two years. I wasn't very close contact with the finance team who were doing very exciting kind of data analysis or like started doing a lot of data analysis. And after a while I was able to join that team, which was a lot of fun. I've had a lot of fun working in finance. I really enjoyed that. And then I moved to Montevue at some point to do finance for Android and Chrome. I was still studying kind of computer science type of topics on the side, building some little apps on the side. And then I was like, well, kind of the mix of stuff that I've done and that I like may have set me up for product management at Google. At Google it's not necessarily super easy to get into. I think in particular coming from finance, it's not the most typical switch. But what got me into there, I was thinking I'm gonna try this for a year. So I did this kind of market analysis and then I said previously, the VP of the emerging market organization was got quite interested in the kind of analysis that I was doing. So we started kind of thinking about what could a product look like. That I did kind of in my spare time next to finance. And I started working with some other people part-time. And as that slowly got rolling, like a small team started forming and kind of a product that you started forming and then the VP kind of just asked me, do you wanna start doing this full-time? Cause as the team started growing, you can't do this like in your evening hours anymore. And so that was my path into product. One of many, right? Like if you hear stories about people, how they got into product management, there's a hundred different ways, right? I do think the one of the, one thing that's pretty typical, again, it's not universal, but it's pretty typical. It's kind of an understanding and perhaps experience in business type of topics, can be marketing, whatever. An understanding and keen interest in technology, programming, for example, or kind of other type of technical endeavors. And perhaps some experience already having built a small product that doesn't have to be successful. I've built some very mediocre products before, but kind of having a little bit of that experience as well. I think that makes for a pretty good package of rolling into a product management role. For our engineering team, the big issue that they have to deal with is that they're focused on marketing teams and they're always looking for feedback. So how do you prioritize with notice? Yeah, how do you prioritize? That's a very good question and extremely difficult. I think a lot of people, they come up with ideas. They say, oh, it would be great if you do this. You even have to wait executives, they come to you with ideas. A lot of users come to you with ideas. Your team comes to you with ideas. So there's no shortage of ideas. That's never a problem. Yeah, I can easily create a list of a hundred ideas for our product. So the way that we try to prioritize or that I've tried to prioritize in my team, so I tried to set a vision of like the next few years. Where do we, what do we wanna get to? What do we think are big opportunities? What do we wanna evolve into? And that strategy is definitely a very important guideline that makes it somewhat easy for us to pick the things that we wanna go for. I think the second input there would be the feedback that we get from users and kind of the insights that we get from the market where like if 50% of your user feedback is asking for feature X, that's a pretty clear signal that there might be something there as well. So I would say one, trying to set a long-term vision and two, looking at what users are talking about. Yes, question. So how we come up with ideas, it's different. So we have a strategy team. They come up with, they do market analysis that they find opportunities. We have product managers that may come up with ideas by doing analysis. So it can come from a lot of different sides. I think it's kind of the role of like an executive to say of these things, these 10 I wanna see if we can explore a little more. Then of those things that we explore a little more, these three are ones that we really wanna invest in because we can see they're getting traction. Does that kind of answer your question? Yeah, question. Yeah, about like, it makes sense because they're probably the most active right now. Yes. Yeah. Like women, they represent half of the population. So how do you balance the two between right, like initially targeting the actual? Yeah, again, that's such a difficult balance. Like we actually see our eventual target user as being probably more women focused because there's a lot of, as you say, kind of untapped opportunities. A lot of products focus on something kind of the problems for engineers pretty much. So there's a big opportunity that we've seen in India in particular for kind of the female groups. We're starting to do specific research with just women trying to understand how they use file managers, for example. Obviously, women are a pretty broad group, but yeah, we're definitely more and more starting to focus around how can we reset the eventual group that we wanna target beyond the current group of early tech adopters that we have right now. But it's a balance. And this is also something that we debate a lot. Different people have different opinions. Some people say, oh, you should build it entirely for your eventual audience. Other people say, first focus on that early tech adopter group, because they're the ones that are gonna help you grow and they're gonna spread the word. So there's difference of opinions and I think the truth is in the middle somewhere. Yes, question. Do you consider having these features out ready? Sorry? Do you consider all these features for us? Embedded in Android? If they should be embedded in Android, so one thing is like Android doesn't really wanna favor Google apps too much, right? They wanna try and have a healthy ecosystem of a lot of different apps from a lot of different developers having a great chance. And another thing is, Android is pretty kind of neutral generic and they have to be, right? They're for everybody. If you think about these fun animations that we have in the app, I don't know if that would be like the perfect match for kind of vanilla Android to be in there. So it gives us a lot of freedom as well to do something outside of Android. That said, Android is also interested in some of these features. So yeah, there may be some amount of collaboration at some point. Yes, question. Are you sure some of the most important KPIs we get? Most important KPIs, yeah. Very clear is a number of users. 20 of the active is what we look at. Very clear is a Play Store rating is an important one for us. It's like what the users think, right? In one easy metric. Then there's one for us specifically. We look at how many people free up storage the first time they use the app. If they don't, that's kind of a pretty big failure for us, right? Cause like, that's why they got the app. It didn't work out for them. So that's one that we definitely wanna like keep as low as possible. Then there's other things such as how much space are people freeing up in the first 30 days. For us, that's over a gigabyte, which is a very good metric. It tells us that people are clearly freeing up a lot of space using our app. Then I think feature usage, like it's not necessarily something we have targets for, but something that is extremely interesting to see is which features are getting used a lot, which ones are not getting used a lot. Yes. So we get feedback. There's two ways we get like a lot of feedback. One is Play Store reviews. People are very keen to write their opinion on apps that they use. We got over 100,000 reviews already, which feels quite substantial. And we have a function in the app where you can provide feedback. It's just kind of your present menu and such feedback and you can write something and it ends up with us. I think for the feedback feature, I would consider that to have quite a bit of bias. I think the type of person that sends feedback directly to a development team, it's probably more of a tech-savvy type of person. I think the Play Store reviews are a little less biased. And then there's kind of outside sources such as we had a huge thread on Reddit, for example, where a lot of people are discussing it. There's some other forums where people are discussing the app. When we get press, so right, the Verge or Tech Ranch or whatever, or like Indian Press, a lot of people leave their comments below those articles. Those can be very interesting as well because in particular, if it's something like Economic Times of India, that's a pretty unbiased sample. You're not gonna get, those are not necessarily early tech adopters. So a lot of different sources, I'd say Play Reviews is kind of the one that we get most out of right now. Yes, Chris? So how do you decide to focus on emerging markets? For us to be honest, this was a company strategy, kind of a new initiative, a new focus within the company was being formed, specifically around solving emerging markets issues. So kind of, I was very closely aligned with the organization in my finance role. And because of that, I very quickly kind of, I very quickly was in that path. And I think at Google that was also very interesting because we are always focused on kind of solving problems for people that are fairly similar to us. We tried to diversify obviously, but that are somewhat similar. And this is something that we didn't do before. So also the kind of the Google product opportunities there were a lot wider and a lot less was explored, which made it easier in a way to find great opportunities. So if you've established, say, 10 million users, I don't know what number is an emerging market, if you launch another app that they might use, how do you leverage that? Or did you already do that to get them in the first place? So how do you mean? Did you have 10 million users in emerging markets? Yep. Another app for emerging markets. Yeah. How do you get them to adopt that quickly? Go to the same press or do you go directly to your users? Yeah, it's a good question. So we have a bunch of different apps out there right now for emerging markets. We have Taze, which is a payment product. It's just India. We have Ditteli, which is a data-saving product. Global, I believe. Then we have our app. We also have Google Station, which is a Wi-Fi connectivity at train stations and primarily in India. So one thing that we have is we launched our app very closely to Ditteli, for example, which made it a little more difficult to get the right kind of press because there was too many things happening at the same time. But normally, I think tech is pretty keen to write about new products when they launch. And in particular, if they're solving a specific issue for a specific group of people, such as Google building something for India, I think it doesn't really matter if you launch another app a year later. People will be interested in what you do. Or you just go to organic every time. Yeah, so we get quite a bit of press around it organically. However, I definitely want to make sure next time I launch an app that I take a moment where there's no other apps or no other big technology releasing so that press doesn't have too much else to write about, and they will focus on it. Sorry, question, yeah. OK, 2-1? OK. So what does Files do for Google in general and the next billion units as a consequence? You can understand Google's phase being the plane to the payment space. It's also revenue generating at some level. Yep. What does Files do for Google for next billion or its users? Yeah, so that's kind of more monetization and value pieces of files go. Again, it's not something that we're laser focused on right now. First, we want to build a bigger user base. There's definitely a bunch of things that we can do. So for example, there's other monetizing Google products that we could help acquire more users. There might also be monetization opportunities for us ourselves to start generating some revenue. We're starting to think through these. Starting to work with our finance team, which is obviously interested in that as well. Those need to evolve over the year. And Google is definitely like executives will be interested to also see like, hey, great. You got traction at some point. How are we going to add value for Google? So that's a good question and we're going to answer it. Dollar a year. It's like $10 million. Google doesn't care about that. Well, so the user base I think is also pretty important. So Google is definitely doing very well in a lot of markets. But for example, the Google apps, I know maps and Gmail, et cetera, not all of them are as widely used in emerging markets as they are in a first world. So Google's footprint and it's being a top of mind for users is probably a little lower in emerging markets and I think that's something that we're interested in as well. So if I may? Yeah. All right. I'd like to read a little bit. OK. I have to chat more about it. All right. Yep. So the market share. Have you, do you have the stacks of? Do you estimate that you've already won considering this app? Yeah. So again, like competition is obviously not something that we look at very closely. We try not to because that would also kind of limit how you see yourself, right? Are we this kind of app? Are we that kind of app? Are we solving a more general problem, et cetera? So if you're thinking about market share in terms of there's this many apps out there that do this and we're x percent of that market, I wouldn't be able to tell you. I wouldn't really know. And I would actually try myself not to focus on it because it would limit my view to saying, oh, this is what we're competing with. Does that answer your question? Yeah. At least launch it or not. And this kind of thing. Yeah. It's already decided that you cannot develop this app or product. Then it probably doesn't matter. Yeah. It doesn't matter that much. What is important for us is the user base. If we can get to 100 million users, for example, that's a big thing. What percentage of whatever market that may be, that doesn't really matter. Maybe one more question or is it? Final question. Yeah, you? Yeah. So a lot of people kind of in whatever role like working on new products that are kind of early ideas, you can sense all the time that people are very keen to do that kind of stuff. So that wasn't necessarily a big problem to try and find people that may be interested to spend a few hours a week trying to develop a new idea. I didn't do any coding myself, no. We have people that are a lot better at it than I am. All right. Thank you.