 Hello again, Sir Lucia and welcome to the program. You are on the field with me, Philip Sidney, of course. My guest is Sir Calix George, who was, of course, responsible for a lot of work that has been done here in agriculture here in St. Lucia. And we are now going to our part two of the program. So again, welcome, Mr. George, to the program. Where we ended the first part, you talk about the contribution of Sir Arthur Lewis as far as agricultural economics was concerned to St. Lucia. Could you tell us a little more about that? Oh, well, I think what I told you was the influence that he had from his writings in terms of agricultural development in the tropical world, in terms of the British colonial development, because don't forget he was also part of the... First he worked in the trade department, I think it was, of the British government, and was their advisor to the colonial development corporation and development. There was the colonial development and welfare fund. So that is the fund that was used to stimulate agricultural development by the British government in the colonies. So as a result of that, I was telling you that he had recommended the Jamaicans to come into places like St. Lucia to help in agricultural development. So his contribution is to the development of the agricultural enterprises in St. Lucia. And that was through the extension work of the Jamaican guys I told you about, Mullins and Atkinson and so on. That's how you have the Atkinson brothers and so on down here now. Yes, yes, yes. And Atkinson did a lot of work, for example, like Mark yesterday. A little bit in bananas and so forth. And he also did some work, incidentally, at Beauchamp. Beauchamp, yes, yes. So Arthur, through his writings and so on, as I am saying, I am trying to industry that his writings and his recommendations were influential in active participation of the development of St. Lucia. And these are his books, these are the volumes. I have all the volumes, the collected papers of Sir Arthur. And anybody that wants to come and read it, you can come. Yes, I will. I'm not letting it out because when you let out your thoughts. You're going back. But if you want to come and read and know about his things, you can come to my house. Definitely, definitely. Okay, let's go back to, I really want to touch on the Agricultural Cadet Cosset Union. No, but before you got it, let me tell you about the same thing about Atkinson and so on. Okay, all right. Now, when Atkinson came here in the diversification, he had an estate called Beauchamp, down in Miku. And he had brought down Akis from Jamaica. And he gave it to me and I propagated all the Akis for him. Okay. And he used the Akis to establish a big farm down at Beauchamp. All right. And it was the largest Akis farm in the Caribbean, even bigger than those in Jamaica. Okay. All right. Because he was interested in the diversification of the agricultural economy of Saint Lucia. So, himself and a guy, I think it's a Fletcher from Jamaica. And they opened a plant to process the Akis. Okay. And that started off beautifully. I don't know what happened, but it floundered. Definitely. But Atkinson had done a very, very good initiative. Not forgetting his, what do you call it, the Tilapia... Oh, well, that's a different story. That's a different story. They used to call it Thier Atkinson. Thier Atkinson, yeah. That was brought in actually by Scouton, who was the chief agricultural officer. And that's why you have the ponds at Union. At Union, correct. Because that's where it all started off. The Tilapia farming. And some of the ponds, I think, are still there. Yeah. Union agricultural station and Union agricultural cadets, the course. That was a famous course, you know, sir. Well, as I was explaining to you, it started off in 1910 or something like that. I can't remember the exact date, but it's recorded somewhere where I've written on it. And so it continued, and then you have people coming in there to be trained, et cetera. For example, Ira Dovey was trained there. But Henry and all these guys were trained at Union agricultural station. And so I continued that, but I expanded it. And I also expanded the course content. Right. So you had different subjects. Infuse, for example. I must have chemistry in your head. Oh, both the organic and inorganic came out. Exactly. Never forget that. You have to understand those things before you do anything. Yes, sir. So you did a basic science course, and then afterwards you did something on the history of agriculture. And then you did the agronomy, how you grow various crops and so on. Yeah. And also the livestock section, which Mr. Fontenelle did the livestock things. There was engineering too. And there was engineering. Daisy, you remember Mr. Daisy? Daisy, yes. Yeah, did engineering. And then you also had metric. Oh, that's pathology. Botany. Plant plant pathology, I remember that very well. But I can never forget your chemistry. I mean, you were drilling us, you know. I'll tell you one thing about Mr. Chod. No, you have to understand. But you know, what I admired about you was your frankness, you know, and admit where mistakes were made and you were just frank. I mean, I don't think this opportunity is enough time to go through. But those are my best days in growing up at Union. Right. And I must say thanks to you. Well, that's what I was trained for. Yeah. I wasn't trained for the knowledge that I have was for me. The knowledge is to be transmitted. Yes. And I'm very glad actually that I was able to transmit whatever knowledge that I had to you guys. Yeah. And I had a whole series of guys. And then the thing about that, you know, that's what is interesting. You, at the time we were growing, you know, like 16, 17 years old, you know, young guys. We, I don't know if you knew, but we was kind of, you know, because after, but the thing is we, we thought you were being wicked to us because we call you what kind of names, you know, we call you Jigan, we call you Castro. We call you all kind of names because, I mean, you were just drilling us, not realizing you recognize our potential. And you wanted us to obtain that optimal level that we, as far as we were concerned. Yeah. And that was it. I had to push you all. I had to push you all. And I must say good. And that's the way, that's the way. Of course, you have to, when you're dealing with certain characters like Rigoberts, you also, you also, you can't let Rigoberts control. Rigoberts ain't controlling. He not only controlling you, you know, but he want to control me. Yes. Okay. So fellas like Rigoberts and so on, you have to have a strict thing. You know, his famous thing was taking the vehicles at night and moving, going down to Miku, you know. And of course, I know, and of course, Rigoberts was a famous, he was a character. Yeah. He was quite a character. There was this guy that I remember, sadly, you have to dismiss him. His name was Sivila. And I remember. Who's that guy? No, I don't think you remember that guy. We were almost on the drive on 2115, 547. Yeah. And then this goes on. Short wheel base, long wheel base, Land Rover. And I remember this guy on the weekend and then he was reversing by Prout's office. And then he hooked one of the bumpers and he ripped it up. Oh, okay. In the morning, you call us to the lecture room and then you are questioning us. And nobody said anything until he said, so I was the one. And you sent him home. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a discipline that happened. Yeah, you have to, the first thing. The first thing. But the course. If you want to progress in life, the first thing is discipline. Yeah, yeah. But you know, the course content was equivalent to you, you know. I know, I know, I know. She is. I made it that way because when I finish with you at Union, right? And you go to Echiaf and so on. You have to succeed. Yeah, we have to succeed, man. If you talk to fellas like Polius, Ronnie and those guys, Ronnie Popey. Yes. They tell you that when they went to university, the course that I did with them for statistics, they covered that. No time. Smiling. You know, because I went up to the level of statistical analysis, statistical design and all that. And Popey, Popey tell me when he is going to laugh at me first. Because Carlo already done that. Definitely. So a question that I was asked to put to you, we never graduated. We never got a certificate under your watch. No, you're always supposed to get it, you know. We never got it. Well, what happened, Mr. Matthew had made an arrangement with the Ministry of Education. Education as after, yes. Yes, to give you all a certificate. Right, right. We never got it. And then, in fact, I think, in fact, eventually that happened, you know, because, yes, yes, yes, yes. At the batch that we were in? Maybe your batch, probably. But afterwards, it went to the... Mr. Matthew and so on had made an arrangement for it to come out from the morn technical. Morn, yes, and yes. Correct. No, you're right. You're right. But our batch never received it. Probably all did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was the landscape of Union Station, sir. I remember when I got in there, I mean, that station was a viable station. And while we were there... Well, it's no longer an agricultural station. You can't call it an agricultural station. But you know what's interesting? Because the whole, you know, the whole section there, where I used to do my experiments and so on, it's no longer there. Yeah, but... They have... They've desecrated the place. Definitely. The only thing that is of value, as far as I am concerned, is the propagation center. Yes, that's the only thing that's there. And the propagation center has done very, very, very well, particularly in terms of ornamentals. I still think that they need to expand the propagation of economic crops. Yes, they do. Particularly things like citrus and mangoes. Citrus and mangoes. I agree with you. When you look at St. Lucia, St. Lucia is a mango country. Yes, yes. So if you're talking about agriculture, future agriculture, you have to concentrate on fruits and other things. Now, as you say so, there was another thing at Union, which I did. And that was the integration of the crop production with processing. Right, the agriculture... And I brought in what is known as the produce chemistry laboratory. Produce chemistry lab, yes. And I had a group of guys. Mr. Lubin. Like Mr. Lubin. Before Mr. Lubin, Mr. Destown. Yes. I even had an engineer. Evans. Evans, yes. All right? Yes, yes. Evans was a chemical engineer. A very good guy. So what I used to do, you remember, I used to grow the passion fruit. I introduced passion fruit. And we used to grow the passion fruit, do the experiments. Y'all take the weight of the fruit and all that kind of thing. In fact, that's how Harvest got his name. Remember? Yes, yes, yes. Harvest, Harvest is always interested in harvesting. Harvesting. So the fellows call him Harvest. Harvest, yes. Anyway, we used to get the Harvest, bring it to Marjorie into the... You remember Marjorie? Marjorie, yes. Into the lab. And then they would do the processing of the fruits, the liqueurs and all that kind of thing. Yes, yes. Because I'm still... I am personally of the opinion that there is a future for passion fruit in this country. Oh yes, oh yes. Because you can grow the passion fruit on the hills. You see the same way that you go when you go to France and Germany and those places. You see they grow in their grapes and so on on the hills. Yes, yes. You can do the same thing. Put your trellises on. Put your trellises on. And in fact, up to now, I am still of that view and I still grow my passion fruit, okay? Yes. On the hillsides up at Marquis, okay? With the hope that others will do the extent that we will have an industry of passion fruit, which will give you not only passion fruit and juice but also liqueurs and things like that. Yes. But when I look back at the landscape, what the Union Station needs to be. You know what was sad? The first thing that came, remember that orchard we had lower U? There was a citrus and mango and then the electricity came. Let me tell you something. Before you continue, I will end here because you have a first break for this part of the program. You're watching on the field with me. We'll do a break. Stay tuned. We'll be back soon. The Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries, Food Security and Rural Development is placing heavy emphasis on the concept of food security. It's our prosperity, our future. The farmer incentives program of the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries, Food Security and Rural Development is aimed at reducing the cost of production and promoting food security and accessibility. All farmers, fishers and agro processors who've registered and own a farmer's registration card qualify. These incentives include the percentage reduction of excise tax and import duties for agricultural and fisheries production inputs which are imported. These include approved agricultural products for an approved agricultural project, for example vehicles, fishing vessels, animals, animal feed, planting materials and other farm inputs. Farmers can apply by completing the application form and submitting with all relevant documents attached. For further information, contact the Deputy Director of Agricultural Services at 468-4125. Welcome back to the program on the field with me. Of course, if you're tuning in now, speaking with Sir Carlos George, of course, a great man who contributed a lot to the agricultural sector here in St. Lucia. Mr. George, you were talking about the landscape of Union that you said earlier, it was desecrated. Yes. I mean, I can never forget when I came in as a cadet at Union, you know, we had this orchard at the bottom, the mango and the citrus and all of a sudden Lucila came on the power station there and we had to move that orchard to the hillside Well, I cried when it happened and I cried, John Compton actually made me cry because I couldn't understand how you're talking about agricultural development and you're giving Lucila permission to put a power station where an orchard was already established. It takes a long time for a tree crop and that is the orchard that provides us with the budding and so on to propagate, to produce plants for distribution to farmers. And no matter how I try to prevent it and so on, Compton gave it a thing. Yes, and it was gone. But there was this thing about anything and so on in the government Union stations, funding scheme again, the Ministry of Agriculture had the best agricultural engineering thing in terms of machinery, etc. Yes. As a matter of fact, the St. Lucian population were against bringing of tractors. They said when it was scouting the Ministry of Agriculture was the first man who started to bring in tractors and so on. If scouting didn't bring in tractors and so on, St. Lucian would still be making a road with pickaxe and so on, you know what I'm saying? So we had the best agricultural engineering heavy equipment thing. I mean the guys were well trained. There was a gentleman by the name of Proud to Barbadian guy who was the mechanical engineer. All right. And then we had very good operators, Farnese. Farnese, these guys were good. And there's a profit. Yes, there's another guy who was very, very good too. A lot of them and they were very well trained. Those guys could go on the hill and do the terraces on the contour for you and so on. And then also they did a lot of the feeder roads for the farmers especially. So when you come and you destroy, when you come and you destroy your main tree crop thing and put the thing. Yeah. And then you can't go and talk. You go out and talk about diversification of agriculture and so on. Yeah. Then your wasso came in where we had our, remember our coffee plot plots. Yes, yes. You covered that there. Then you had the housing scheme on the hillside. Everything, everything they want they come to Union. And that's it. So it is right. So we had our job. I mean it was, well, that is why I lost my, I lost my, I lost my admiration, let us put it that way, for John Compton. But that's a long story. Oh yes, that's an addition. That's an addition. I admired the guy for his contribution to the fight with the Barnards and so on in the sugar days. But subsequently that I had a lot of fights with him, for example. He became pro-capital and anti-labor as far as I was concerned. Because the problems that he gave us when I was president of the Civil Service Association, you know. I had to call three strikes. Yes, I remember. Against him. One of them lasted about 60 days. But I don't want to go into that now. But I respect the man. Yes. I think he was one of the hardest-working guys. It's true. In Saint Lucia. Very, very, but somehow the other day some actions that he took, which went against my philosophy. My philosophy. The actions, just as you speak, that long building at Union at the time where that house, me myself, as the agricultural company. Well, that is what I use. That is the house. That house. That was the old cotton thing, you know. It was it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We used to grow cotton at one time. Yeah, I know. And the cotton was there. Okay. And afterwards it became a storeroom where Mr. Wardrobe was. Wardrobe was, yes. Yeah, Mr. Wardrobe, who is the uncle of, I think, a relative of Derek Walcott. Okay. Himself and so on were there. So, that was destroyed. That was, when I became the minister of communications and works. All right. And I sat down in my office. Rain was falling. And then there was a leakage on my desk, you know, I mean, my desk used to get flooded, you know, with water coming down from the ceiling and so on. The people who downstairs, water from the toilets and so on used to sit downstairs, you know. Okay. So the people, when I came in there and I saw that I couldn't stay there. And that is why I got Dr. Kenny Anthony to agree for us to have a new ministry of communications and works. I had known every square foot of the land at Union, all right? Yeah. And so I got a very good friend of mine, Neveski, to design. And it's one of the best designed government buildings in the country. I agree. It is thoroughly effective in the delivery of, you know, its services, etc. In the licensees and so on, I understand now there are problems with that. I do not know why, but that building is an excellent building in terms of providing facilities for their workers. Yeah. All right? I wouldn't go, you know, the famous thing, which when after I take you out from the mess at La Coupe Commissaire, brought you up into a building and so on. And I go on one time, remember the thing about the pizza? Yes. I remember the famous pizza in the garbage. You have pizza on your desk. You're supposed to be serving people, you know. I give you very good conditions. I come down there and I ask him about the thing. You want to publish a movie? Nobody answers. So it doesn't belong to anybody. So I have to put that right here. But that building should have been ours, eh? As far as I'm concerned, agriculture. Well, I was no longer the minister of agriculture. I know. I was the minister of communications at the time. You know? Yeah. But I thought that to union. Now, mind you, there's, in fact, I was trying to get the prime minister. The prime minister actually to put his office up there. Because there's a lot of land. Yeah, of course. On the inside and so on. At the back of us. By where the funding scheme was. Right, right, right, right. I think. And in the design, in the design, I even had tennis courts and so on. You know, at the bottom. Yes, I saw that, yeah. And then the building, which it was for the CS. Across the bridge, yes. Recreation center. I remember that, yes. For the CSA and so on and so forth. It was well done. Now, as a matter of fact, and I must say so. I am of the opinion that the pressure of housing in castries can be solved by some of the lands that we have at union. I agree. You see the problem that is coming up from the CDC buildings. Yes. Right? I am going to show you at union where you can go and put some new high-rise buildings, okay, so that you can transfer those people from there to union. Okay. In addition to that, the lands to the east of the Dimple et Risi school. Yes. As a matter of fact, I was the one who convinced Mario and Dr. Anthony to do the school, the Dimple et Risi school in that area. Okay? Because you remember the thing with the castries. Yes, I remember. Yes. Shift system and all that kind of stuff. Yes. Okay? Because there is land at union. Lands east of that going up to by Elwin. Empty, you know? Yes, I know. That's a good land. Is that the old Coco thing? Yes, yes, yes. It's gone. The old Coco jump plasma bank is still there. It's still there. It's still there. It's still there. But that's land available. But that's land available as a matter of fact. And if you're really serious, I think that the government should purchase the Postal Rate Estates. Yes. Belong to Elwin's people. Yes. Yes. And all that. In fact, the Euro going up there. It's passing through them. You've got good land there. Yes, good land there. But the problem that, well, I'm deviating going away from agriculture. But as it arises, you know, we're talking about union, there is enough land up there. But there's a lot of land there. Which can be utilized to alleviate the problems that you have with the CDC buildings down there. Okay. So we just about come to a close, but I wanted to talk about where we are, where we were, and where we are now of agriculture. And what's your take moving into the future? Well, there's always a great future for agriculture as far as St. Lucia is concerned. No matter what you do, you must feed yourself. Food security. Food security. Okay. As has been said to him by, so after again, if you read his things, he says that there's not been enough money devoted to the research on food crops, right, in the Caribbean. So we need to look at how we can improve the productivity of our existing crops that we eat like our yams, our dashing, our sweet potatoes and things like that, okay. And to develop modern systems, mechanical systems for the production of those commodities. You cannot develop, and again, I have said so in my book on the thing, you cannot develop agriculture in the modern world without mechanization, okay. So you have to take, but you remember, you must remember that I used to have those small tractors. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rotovators. Rotovators. Harald is to do. Harald. Harald was a master at using the rotovators, right, so you have to introduce those things. Throughout the lead to the breath, I understand that they are bringing in some, but that's not enough. Yes. So you have to introduce those things in areas where the farmers can have access to it at critical times, because again, you cannot use them when it is too wet or too dry. You have to plow the soil at a particular consistency, all right, and it's a very narrow window. So you have to have the things available for the younger boys, the younger men to use those things, all right, as part of their land preparation and so on and so forth. You agree? Okay. So there is future provided that you go into things, and particularly in the area of food production, because if you have your tourist industry, and you have a million tourists coming into your island, that means you have to feed a million people. So you should be able, right, to produce the food that is going into the thing. And the food that is going to some of the institutions, when, for example, I was the minister of internal security, all right, the bodily was self-sufficient, you know. I remember that. I had them to establish a farm. I had extension officers going there. I had qualified agricultists working in the thing for both crops. And livestock. And livestock. They were self-sufficient in eggs and so on. They used to sell pork from what, bodily? Broilers. And broilers and things like that. So there is, in fact, there are areas from government institutions, right, where local farmers can benefit, bodily can feed by themselves. Of course. And also for the hospitals. The hospitals. Exactly. Exactly. The boys' center, all these areas. Especially now in Kassafo. Exactly. The geriatric houses, you know, where you have people my age going to. The homes. To be fed, right. So there's a big market and a big demand for agriculture in the country. And that's just domestic I'm talking about. When it comes to the export, as I told you, I'm of the view that some of the hillside lands and so on could be into places like mangoes. And passion fruit. Passion fruit and things like that. Passion to that. They are export. They are export. There's demand for some of the products, for example, dashin. Yes, there is a market for that out there. Right now I'm leasing my place to fellow, and one of the guys that I leased to is a good quality dashin or the thing, and he grows good quality dashin. So I sent him a thing which I got, where St. Vincent and Grenada have a niche market in Florida. Okay. And the demand is not being met. So they can supply. We can grow dashin for export. Yeah, I agree. So in addition for the domestic food security, you could also have export. You know, commodities. The whole issue, for example, of passion fruit as I mentioned is another one. There are also demands for some of the newer products, like soursop. Yes. Grenada exports. Yes, I agree. So you have to plan out those things and actually put resources. Okay. For development. And so you could have a viable export agriculture as well as a viable domestic agriculture. Final words for me, sir? Well, I hope that I've covered, I haven't covered everything. There's a lot more to cover. Even in the agricultural field, for example, I haven't said anything about the demise of the banana industry. All I can say about that is that my advice was not followed. I was the one who broke the geese contract for us to do our own things because we are exploited by geese. Although we have got benefits, we could have got much more greater benefits because 80% of the profits and so on that are going from the industry went to geese and we only got 20%. So we had to break that. That's why Webdeco was formed. Okay. Webdeco was formed, the philosophy we're having with Webdeco was that we would have control of the ripening end of the thing. And the profits from that would have been plowed back to the farmers so that the farmers could improve their productivity so that you could compete with the Colombians and the Costa Ricans and so on. But that didn't happen. Okay. What happened was that the profits, Konebat used the profits to go into new industries. Diversity. I was doing water. Water and juices. And juices. Okay. So the money that was supposed to be plowed back to the growers to improve on their productivity. When I gave them certain warnings, they did not follow my warnings and that's why the banana industry didn't drop down. Yes. Yes. Mr. George, I wanted to say thank you. Thank you. There's an opportunity I looked forward to after we put off this interview so many times. We'll say thank you again. I wish you success in your quiet moments. And I'm hoping to read another book. I know that's in motion. I was told. Well, I have it. Okay. Wow. That's the section here. Okay. That deals with union. Okay. Wow. Interesting. All right. Because there are a lot of things which I didn't cover. We just couldn't cover. You couldn't cover all of them. You couldn't cover all of them. But I am writing my autobiography and all these things will be coming in. Beautiful. I have a section. In fact, the section of union, I didn't even include it. In the section that you're talking about the school, I didn't even include it in there. Okay. This is a separate chapter where I call it the educator. Okay. Because as far as I am concerned, I am alive to educate. There is no point in being educated yourself and not doing anything about the education of others. Correct. The important thing is you must leave a legacy. Pass it on. Yeah, you must leave. And I'm very glad that I... Perhaps again, I became an educator. Anything I do, I always like to pass on the information to people. And again, that might have been influenced by my grandmother, who was a teacher. And all my aunts were teachers. Yes. You see? So there is that linkage in education. In fact, my greatest joy actually is the legacy that I have left with you guys. Yes, I know. Because I can tell you those guys who are very well educated. I educated those guys very well. And they have done very, very well. Yes. You know, all of you all. Yes. Thank you. I don't want to mention them. I know. Thank you again Mr. Jordan. I wish you success in your retirement. Thank you very much. Your cool moment. Thank you. You're very... Thank you for watching the program on the field with me, Philip Sidney. And I have heard and you have seen my guest, the great Sir Khalix George, who of course had many portfolios and contributions to the agricultural sector and more. Thank you again for your viewing. I'm Philip Sidney saying goodbye. And I'll see you again.