 Welcome to the annual DEF CON convention. This meeting was held in exciting Las Vegas, Nevada from July 9th through the 11th, 1999. This is video tip number 45. Follow up on micro power radio. This is the micro power radio talk. This is the Georgian 2.0. I'm going to kind of cover a little bit of some of the things I covered last year plus some changes that have occurred legally. Put my nets hat on to keep my hair out of my eyes. As well as try to go over some technical details that I kind of glossed over last year. First of all, introduce myself. I'm Professor Fiedelbaum. I am the individual that started the Desert Crossing Radio broadcast five years ago with the Southern California Car Caravan. I also operated my own micro power radio station in Los Angeles area called The Voice of Mercury for a number of months or years. Probably closer to eight years now. I have since moved. I'm no longer in Southern California so I'm not necessarily involved with the Caravan anymore. I'm in a new town causing new problems and new frequencies. Basically, what I hope to cover is a little bit of some of the changes that have occurred over the last year regarding micro power radio. I'm going to talk a little bit more about antenna construction. I'm going to discuss a little bit about building a pirate station. Kind of recover some of the stuff that I covered last year. First of all, some changes. First of all, right now, currently before the Federal Communications Commission is a proposal to provide for legal micro power radio. On January 28th, the FCC was proposed to license new 1,000-watt and 100-watt low-power FM stations and has also seeking comments to establish a third class for power levels from 1 to 10 watts. Of course, the National Association of Broadcasters isn't real happy about this. They would much rather have one or two companies owning stations and markets rather than hundreds of companies, as is the case like in the town Rylev where there are 16 FM stations owned by three companies. This, of course, reduces the quantity of people that have a voice in the market, especially in urban areas like Los Angeles where it is very difficult to get on the air. They have adopted and noticed the proposed rulemaking, which basically means that the FCC is seriously considering this proposal and they all accept in comments. Now, the original comment period expired on April 12th, but has been extended now twice. They are currently still taking comments until August 2nd. I'm actually looking at the proposal here on their website. And there is a website you can go to if you would like to see the LP FM proposal. And let me find that here in my notes as I'm paging up here. And I don't appear to have the actual URL in here. But I think if you go to FCC.gov, www.scc.gov and look for the LP FM proposal, basically the low-power FM proposal that's being sent, that's being discussed right now is not perfect. A lot of people in the micro power radio community would have much rather had some additional restrictions based on ownership and things like that. But this is better than nothing. And should prove at least interesting for the short term. I just want to make a couple of things known. There's a little bit of FUD going around on this. They're not issuing licenses yet, nor are they accepting applications. And the commission is seriously considering the fact that people that have been busted for operating micro power stations in the past will not be issued licenses. Because they are, quote, unfit broadcasters, unquote. That's one of the more questionable issues. Obviously this is, some people think this is specifically so that Jennifer, for those of you who don't know, Stephen Jennifer is like the godfather of micro power radio. A lot of people think there's a conspiracy to keep him off the air, and that's why the FCC is doing that. Anyway, like I said, they're taking citizen comments on this. I strongly suggest that everybody who's even remotely interested in micro power radio, go to the FCC's website, find this proposal, send in your comments, not only through the web, but send them by mail. Like every other bureaucracy, they're going to take web comments and put them in the circular file only counting them. However, mail comments are going to be obviously more considered than web comments and email comments. That's the current legal status of micro power radio. The FCC's been still shutting down stations for last year. Last year when I started talking, they had just finished taking off about ten stations. They're still taking them off the air. What this means long term, I don't know, but the short of it is that, and this kind of is the disclaimer, if you do this, you do run the chances of getting caught. And we want to, of course, protect yourself accordingly. Let's see, getting to the thing. Oh, I might as well talk a little bit about the Jennifer failure Berkeley decision. I don't have all the notes here on this, so if somebody knows a little bit more, feel free to stop me. Basically, the free radio Berkeley, which was kind of the parent micro power station, has been taken off the air pretty much for good. They continue broadcasting sometimes on wild frequencies in the Bay Area. This, of course, has been hampered by the fact that Jennifer's physical health is deteriorated. There are appeals pending, but the general consensus is that with the low power FM proposal on the table, the FCC now has much more of a case, because before in the case, Jennifer's defense was based on the fact that you cannot apply for a license. There isn't even a process to go through to be denied. They just will not accept them. With this micro power radio proposal, now the FCC's defense. Now the FCC can say, well, yes, there is. There's this notice of proposed rulemaking that will be taking license applications in six months, and why are you on the air? That's kind of been why a lot of people think the LP FM proposal got as far as it did. It will be interesting to see what happens in six months from now. See where this proposal actually goes. It's curious that all this is going on now, right before the election. I guess micro power radio isn't really an election priority. Okay, kind of glanced over that. Let's talk about actually putting a pirate radio station on the air. The obvious things you need to put a pirate station on the air are obviously programming, which is your mixer and all that fancy stuff, which we have pulling up here. You need a transmitter of some sort, and you need an antenna to radiate your signal. Those are the three basic components. Obviously, all the audio gear is very easy to obtain. A trip to your local radio shack store or even a pro audio store, such as... I can't think of the name of the place. Sam Ash used to be the name of it, or I think they were bought up by somebody. A place like that will get you all the gear you need, at least as far as the audio is concerned. Transmitters are a little harder to obtain. TP, is Brewer still operating? There used to be a gentleman in Florida by the name of LD Brewer. It was www.ldbrewer.com. It used to sell kits. For about $200 you could purchase a Panaxis FM exciter and a free radio Berkeley like 60 watt kit to get yourself about 60 watts of power. Obviously, you need to have a little bit of electronic skills to build this. These come as kits almost exclusively. The electronic skills you need are nothing simpler than just knowing how to solder. In a few cases, you might want to pick up some skills in basic radio troubleshooting. Anybody who has taken a technician level hand radio class probably has all of the technical know-how you need to do it. Most of the technical issues that you'll have are just construction. A lot of the kits, especially the free radio Berkeley kits, are designed to be assembled by people who have learned how to solder as early as five minutes ago. So it's pretty easy to actually build the transmitter. Building an antenna is a little more complicated in the sense that it does require some actual construction skills. We have successfully, in previous years, transmitted using an antenna very similar to this one. This is actually a radio shack off-the-shelf CB antenna. These can actually be readily modified for the FM broadcast band. It does require a little bit of skill. In fact, you'll probably break your first one. We did. Actually, we didn't. It's on the air. It works. Basically, what you have to do, these are designed for a much lower frequency. While that antenna is actually pretty close for the FM broadcast band, there's a loading coil inside here which makes the antenna electrically a lot longer. This loading coil needs to be removed. It can be removed by basically unbolting it. Taking it apart, you will have to take this plastic stuff off. There's a magnet under here and there's a bolt. Once that coil is removed, it's pretty much ready to go. You need to make contact with a vehicle, stick it to, because a vehicle acts as part of the antenna. This is the radio element. It's that simple. It takes an afternoon to build the antenna that way. You do have to have metal contact between the base and the antenna. You can get away with having... It doesn't have to be direct metal contact. It can be inductive contact. In other words, if this is sitting on... See, this is plastic. Obviously, there's a little bit of insulation here. But it does have to be pretty much directly on something metal with very little in between it. If you have a vinyl top, for example, that's too much. Besides the magnet probably wouldn't hold. The rule of thumb on that is that if the magnet holds, there'll be inductive contact. Since we're dealing with radio, we don't necessarily have to touch metal. We just have to get close enough so that there's not, you know, additional inductance going on between the two. But when I built mine, I have an antenna very similar to this. I built mine out of a different model, Radio Shack antenna. When I did it, I found out that just taking a piece of copper foil and sticking it on here improved the antenna performance. Your mileage may vary because Radio Shack has changed these antennas twice in the last, like, five years. But the basic design of it's the same. This is pretty close. We had to trim it a little bit. Didn't we, like, right around here? A little bit longer? Right about that? Shorter? Right there. That was for 104.7 megahertz. As you increase in frequency, the antenna's longer. A little bit quick notes about antenna design. I really want to, probably, like I said, pick up a little bit of knowledge about how long this needs to be. There's a mathematical formula. And I can't for the time being remember it because I'm way too drunk. Huh? It's a quarter wave formula. So it's the number three. Well, yeah, but you have to know the wavelength. You have to know the exact wavelength. Oh, but there's actually a rule of thumb specifically, and I think the number 300's involved, isn't it? Huh? That's your age. That's your age, yes. You don't have to excuse me. I was out partying real hard last night, so I'm not the most coherent this morning. So that's why I'm depending on my laptop here with the notes. I didn't make those hard to screw around with, or they're changing everything. No, they're changing them because Radio Shack over the last, I just used my own internal knowledge of Radio Shack's policies after working there for like five years. Radio Shack has changed vendors for their antennas a couple of times. They're now using an entirely different Japanese or Chinese factory than the one they were using five years ago. So the changes are just, they're purely cosmetic, and the inside the antennas are identical, electrically. They also wanted to make them look a little less cheesy. I mean, they're making them looking a little more cheesy, but you know, that's Radio Shack. Another antenna that a lot of people have had success with that I've never used, Radio Shack sells a scanner antenna, which is a magnet mount antenna like this. In fact, they have a discontinued version you can get for like two or three bucks now. That has three, it has like two loading coils on it. It's designed to be a scanner receiving antenna and also a transmitting antenna for hand radio. I've heard those antennas work out of the box, but have a 25 watt power limitation. I've never tried them. T.P., did you ever try one? I've never tried them. There's no reason why they shouldn't work. If they work on the two meter handband, where's K scenario? Yeah, so that's the next thing, is that there's a couple of different... These are great mobile installations. You just get on the top of your roof, you drive to the top of the mountain, you talk for 15 minutes or 20 or an hour, and you leave, nobody's the riser. A little more permanent installation, you're probably going to want to go with either a straight dipole design, which there are actually instructions to build on a free radio Berkeley site, which I might as well give that out now since I'm looking at it. It's at www.freeradio.org. They have a couple of different designs. We've used, in the past, a J-Pole, which is basically kind of a folded dipole style. The only problem with the J-Pole that we've experienced is it's got a really bizarre radiation pattern. Yeah, and it's about 14 feet tall. You can imagine what that looked like in the back of a Toyota pickup truck. And those pictures, we have the pictures. You can also build what's called a... You can also build a Yagi antenna or even a little more simpler dipole, for a flat dipole with maybe a director, which is a little simpler Yagi, which is just a two-element Yagi. Probably the best resource to do, and it's something that I suggested, to suggest to anybody that's interested in micro-power radio. So you go to your ham radio store and pick up a couple of books printed by the A-W-R-L, which is the big ham radio club in the United States. One of them is called the A-W-R-L Handbook. It's a big, thick book, like this big, and it's got lots of stuff you don't need, but it also has a lot of stuff you will need. It's got lots of formulas and tables and Flotsam and Jetsam and how to talk to Mars on 10 meters and all that kind of stuff. But it also has a lot of antenna designs that you can look at and do the math yourself and apply those designs to the FM Broadcast Band. There's also a couple of antenna designs in there that you can reapply to the AM Broadcast Band, which is also a very interesting place to do business. Another book that you might want to pick up while you're at the ham radio store is the Adelaide Abelal antenna handbook. Is that the right name or antenna? I think it's called the antenna handbook. It's got pictures of huge antennas on it. You can't miss it. It's a lot thinner and it just talks about antennas. Nothing else. That's also a very good resource. There's also another book while I'm talking about books. I'm kind of rambling, so anybody stop me if I'm not covering something you want to know about. There's also another book that is actually co-authored by Stephen Donofin. You can buy through the FRB called Seizing the Airwaves. It's $13 plus $3 shipping and I have the address if anybody's interested. Or you can go to their website for radio.org and buy it. It's a little less technical than some of the AWRO books that I mentioned. It's a lot more introductory. So if a lot of what I'm talking about is kind of going over your head and you don't know what I'm talking about, it's probably a good place to start. But as far as a Yagi goes, the big problem with a Yagi is that a Yagi is going to be directional. So if you live on a mountain and there's a desert behind you and a 5 million person city on one side, that's probably a good choice because you're not going to be talking to nobody. But for most people, they're sitting in the middle of a neighborhood. They want to cover a pretty good circle around an equal proportion. A Yagi isn't always the best choice because people five blocks that way will hear it, but people five blocks that way won't. And it all depends on what your target is. That's probably a good, just general idea to try to figure out where the people you want to hear are and then try to put yourself in the middle. It makes no sense to put a techno pirate radio station in the middle of a middle class, not the middle class, white suburban neighborhood. Similarly, I don't think I'd want to put an easy listening station in the middle of downtown San Ana or Los Angeles. So probably we wouldn't get a lot of listeners. Let's see. Let's see if there's anything else here. As far as transmitter designs, we've used in past years, we've used the Penaxis Exciter plus the FRB amplifier. It's worked very well. The design is very simple. It's easy to build. It takes a couple of afternoons to put the whole thing together and get it tuned up. And let's see. I'm trying to think if I missed anything. I've done this so much now in the last five years. It's like... The best part, okay, places to get technical assistance on the net. The easiest place to get technical assistance is at alt.radio.pilot, I think, is the exact news group. There's also a mailing list, which off the top of my head I can't remember, but if you email me and I'll give all my email address to the end, I'll send you the email list. I think it's like microradio at tao.ca. It's in Canada, somewhere, so it's got like a really weird really weird thing. You can also get a little bit of technical information, although it will take six to eight weeks from Free Radio Berkeley, either through freeradio.org or they have an email address on their website. You can also contact us directly. I'll give you my email address. It's a fetal, that's F is in Frank, E-E, D is in David, L-E. RadioInvasion.com. That's all we're going to run together. And did you want to give out your address? The other person that is, he's actually the one who's actually engineered everything, is it T-Pagan or is it TechnoPagan? TechnoPagan at mailcity.com. And that's also a good place to go. I also have a page that I have on my laptop. I haven't uploaded it yet. I'll give you that webpage. It's www.661.org slash the Tilda's character fetal and slash micro-radio. Or you can just, if you don't forget that far, if you just get to my website somewhere and navigate, it's probably going to be end up being under Projects Micro-Power Radio. I have also a document that I wrote up for last year's convention, which I can put up there, which is a lot more specific about a lot of the things I just kind of glossed over. In fact, that's kind of what I'm reading right here. And also has a specific antenna design. It has in that document the J-Pole design that we've used previously. That's about all I have to say. Unless anybody has any questions, I'll just start there. Yeah. How do people get caught? It's a good... Yeah, that's actually a very good thing to talk about is getting caught. Usually the easiest way people get caught is their neighbors can't suddenly pick up Channel 5 on their TV set and they get like 10 complaints in a five block area and it all seems to involve one channel. That involves this really bizarre music that nobody's ever heard of before. Typically who will catch you is not necessarily the FCC. Who will typically catch you is an SWL, a shortwave listener, a ham radio operator who happens to be a friend or a relative of Joe Bob down the street that can't pick up Channel 5. The easiest way to avoid getting caught is to not create interference. This is a very... This is a big issue for a number of reasons. One of them being that the FCC's big complaint about micro power stations is that they cause all this awful, horrible interference to, you know, they tell these dudes, there's an airplane falling out of the sky and police not being able to pull up criminal records on people and things like that. On free radio.org there's a couple of designs for interference filters that you can build to put on your transmitter so that your transmitter doesn't create spurious emissions and things like that. It's strongly suggested that you use it. You much... I personally and a lot of other people in the micro power radio movement would rather you have a weaker signal that doesn't interfere than a powerful one that, you know, keeps some plane from landing at John Wayne Airport because that'll get you taken down faster than anything. But typically the everybody's scenario of the magic station wagon driving through downtown L.A. looking for the power radio station isn't typically how it works. Typically how it works is a ham radio operator will write up a complaint letter to the FCC stating power levels that he's observed on frequencies that he doesn't believe to be licensed. He'll send that into his... he'll either send it into the FCC office in Gettysburg or he'll just call his local FCC office and fax it over or deliver it to them some other way. And if the ham's done its homework the FCC will... all the FCC will do is just generate a carbon form letter that they generate to everybody mail it to the person in the cease and desist order. If they're in a particularly aggressive mode they might send a couple of agents by the knock on the door and say knock it off. The FCC doesn't carry firearms so they tend to be very cooperative the first time around. They tend to only come in with firearms and lots of jackbooted thugs if they've asked you to knock it off and you don't. My advice would be is if you get two people on the door in a suit and they claim they're from the FCC and they tell you to turn your station off you might want to turn your station off. That was our experience with Free Radio Bakersfield which is where I am now. We basically had the FCC come and just tell us to knock it off and we did and it was all we ever heard of it. You mean like using like repeater communication like using actually amateur communication? What a lot of what a lot of stations have done is they've invested in free other free radio services like FRS or as Citizens Band and I've used that. Broadcasting from a remote location is always an option but the thing is is that if you throw your transmitter up in the mountains and you're sitting down here at your house and you're beaming to it the FCC finds it they now can just go, oh it's on this frequency and then find you on that frequency. I don't know everybody that's had a lot of work doing it successfully because there's all kinds of variables. By all means if you want to try something like that go right ahead and report the results and maybe you can talk about it next year and I won't have to come up here and make an idiot of myself. The primary consequence of getting caught is that they'll come take your stuff away. There's also a fine involved typically a number with three or four zeroes after it per day. They tend to not use that because for micro power stations because they've had in previous years some political nightmares with doing that for there was an incident involving a couple of high school kids at a high school back east that got the whole community in an uproar. They will do that if they feel that there's an egregious violation going on like if the content is particularly obscene or has been ongoing for quite a long time or they feel there's other issues involved like for instance you are indeed interfering with legitimate communication especially public safety they get really upset with public safety and aircraft. So typically there are serious consequences for especially if they knock on your door or send you a letter and you continue. I've heard of 8,000 to 10,000 a day fines being handed out for micro power violations which is silly considering that most of these stations are less than 5 watts can't be received more than 5 miles but that's the political scene. Anything else? Yeah. Have you ever gotten something for obscenity in the state for more hours? Yes specifically a station in Miami that was taken off the air in the last round of busts back in summer last year the station was particularly targeted specifically for obscenity and in fact how they ended up taking the guy down was not the FCC it was the local sheriff's department enforcing obscenity law so yeah this is in Dade County weird things happen in Dade County what can I say? Yeah Okay yeah there are yeah there's a series of kits the FM10, FM25 and FM100 kits from a company by the name of Ramsey Electronics out of Victor New York I believe a Ramsey New York they're in New York state the FM10 is a great transmitter to play with and to give to your little son and say here play on the FM dial but it's not a very good broadcast transmitter its frequency is unstable it has interference issues when you try to put an amplifier on it and just isn't generally a good transmitter the chip it's basically based on a common chip called the BA1404 and that chip is the kind of thing that's used in Mr. Microphone so it's not a very it's a great design for what it is but it's not anything more than what it is the other two transmitters that Ramsey makes the FM25 and the FM100 are a different story the FM25 is a stable transmitter it's not a bad transmitter I would prefer you know personally I got one and I didn't think it was as good as the as the Penaxis transmitter it's about the same power level they are very easy to build they do provide some support if you're having trouble constructing it if you're a novice in constructing kits and have never done it before that's a good place to go they also sell the FM25 as an assembled kit so you don't have to assemble it yourself it's more expensive that way I think they want about $210 or $220 assembled the third transmitter that Ramsey makes is the FM100 which they legally cannot sell in the United States however if you've got a friend in Mexico or really good at cheesing them up you can get them to send you that transmitter that transmitter is actually a professional exciter it is designed to be used as a low cost exciter for a commercial transmitter as such it is extremely stable it is extremely reliable and has very good audio quality it does have the problem of not being legally available in the United States you can finagle that it's a good transmitter you just require a letter saying that you can ask for it I've had issues there I did get them to send it to a mail drop there have been times Ramsey constantly gets FCC people looking over their shoulder all the time so if you just happen to call on the day that the local field inspector is out there just having coffee with the owner you might not be so lucky yeah what he was saying for those of you who didn't hear in the back that a lot of times they will ship it if you just send them a letter stating that you are going to export it when I tried that they required an exporter's license which I was able to produce because I was actually exporting it ironically enough for a friend who lives in Japan but go fig legally owned is always kind of an iffy issue when you're talking about communications gear in the United States it's kind of like owning a red box depending on who you talk to and what phase of the moon it is it's legal to have it or it's not legal to have it because it's an access device transmitters are kind of the same way technically yes it is legal to own a transmitter but you're always going to get the question asked of you why do you have it if you're not using it it is perfectly legal to put as much power as you want into a non-radiating dummy load and talk away about the content because of that technically owning a transmitter is not illegal however if your local field inspector just happens to be driving by and having coffee and he hears a radiation and he goes and stops by your house and you have an FM100 with a 1,000 watt push-pull transmitter there and no dummy load that's not going to look real good I think the FM100 stock comes with like a 5 or 25 I think it comes in a couple of different configurations if I remember right do you remember yeah I remember there being a 5 and a 25 watt configuration for the FM100 which is more than enough power to drive a tetro-based commercial broadcast transmitter most exciters are in that power range so that's what it's designed for it's also not type accepted the United States for purposes of a bad cast exciter technically there is a loophole in the AMWAH that does allow a certain amount of low power broadcasting it's entirely different than FM the FM rules are a really convoluted mix up that says you can only you can only transmit a signal that is heritable at one mill volt per meter measured at three meters means that you bought an FM10 at Radio Shack or at Fries you put a little stock whip antenna you're running it off a nine volt battery and you can basically cover your property with it in AM the rules are a little bit different and I don't I'm not the one to ask about this but there are circumstances where AM micropower broadcasting is not only legal it is technically encouraged by the FCC an excellent example of this is in many parts there are big cities like in LA for example there are billboards that say tune to 1620 AM and you tune and you get some obscene or not obscene but some ridiculous commercializing content for you know this is this is you know my auto parts store come and stop by that kind of thing also there's a lot of places where real estate agents are using them to sell houses you know for all the information on this house but it's something like 100MW ERP which is not a lot of power but there have been some very curious applications of that law there's a gentleman who runs a car dealer in Central Northern California I think it's outside Stockton that has a micropower AM station that is here bill for quite a distance and has a lot of people up in that area very upset because it's causing other problems but yeah that's something that we really know a lot about you can look around on the net and get some answers there is a certain amount of legal power that's permitted for an AM broadcast just like FM but there's also some special stipulations about schools and AM from what I remember if you're on a school you can do all kinds of stuff any other questions okay again it's www.661.org slash total page should be up as soon as I arrive back in the beautiful City of Bakersfield in California um hahaha so and uh I guess that's it there's a staff member here who looks like he's ready to kick me out so I guess it's better oh you're just sitting here oh you just came for the talk oh you missed it and you missed it so any of the rest has any questions one last time any of the rest wanna know anything I didn't cover yeah um the broadcast legally on the FM band if you follow the millivolt per meter rule which is effectively no power or have five hundred thousand dollars you can post as a bond to the federal communications commission to apply for a class C commercial broadcast license um that's the minimum investment it gets that's like how much you have to spend to talk to the FCC basically and um there's you have to use that money to have engineering surveys setting up a broadcast station um like I said in the beginning of the talk I talked about there is an attempt to try to get a proposal through the commission right now called the LP FM docket which is currently a notice of proposed rulemaking which is kind of like the FCC version of a bill in congress if you will um that will permit micro power broadcasting under a thousand watts um and that's wandering its way through the FCC if you want to comment on the FCC's website look for it and you have to get your comments in before August 2 no that was disposed of because in many cities in many major markets um the the reserved band is they they dropped all that 15, 20 years ago um there are commercial stations down there there are commercial stations in the band because of trading with commercial stations and all kinds of other stuff so my understanding is that's been dropped from the proposal is there anything in the proposal to keep a commercial company with a law made combining all the frequencies um there is a stipulation in the proposal and I haven't looked at the proposal there's the proposal has changed a lot into something else um the FCC's intent with this proposal is to not create is to create non-commercial stations so the FCC is being very specific in their wording to prohibit or restrict ownership from large commercial interests um the problem with this is that the FCC has traditionally been very friendly towards educational establishments so a lot of people are worried that what may end up happening is that like with the previous low power FM in the 70s it will end up happening the schools will end up snapping up all the licenses and broadcasting commercial formats on a you know on a non-commercial station a case in point is in Long Beach there's a jazz station that is run by the University of California and nobody can compete with it because it's commercial free because it's a non-commercial it's a educational license so that's a concern I suggest you read the proposal and read it because there have been some changes um in the 50 gazillion different formats I think it's got it like WordPerfect and a text file I got an Acrobat file they even have like Excel spreadsheet attachments for a lot of the stuff the FCC's gotten surprisingly wired over the years um so uh that that would probably be the best if you're interested in that proposal like I said there's actually two different classes of stations there's currently a thousand watt and a hundred watt license and I think a lot there's going to be a lot more anal and if you just want the hundred watt license so at least that would be the hope any last questions okay well that's it I don't know who's next um thanks and I'm sorry I'm sorry for being totally