 Hello and welcome to My Career in Data, a podcast where we discuss with industry leaders and experts how they have built their careers. I'm your host, Shannon Kemp, and today we're talking to Gwen Thomas, a data strategist at the Data Governance Institute. With a robust catalog of courses offered on demand and industry-leading live online sessions throughout the year, the Dataversity Training Center is your launchpad for career success. Browse the complete catalog at training.dataversity.net and use code DBTOX for 20% off your purchase. Hello and welcome. My name is Shannon Kemp and I'm the Chief Digital Officer at Dataversity, and this is My Career in Data, a Dataversity Talks podcast dedicated to learning from those who have careers in data management to understand how they got there and to be talking with people who help make those careers a little bit easier. To keep up to date in the latest in data management education, go to dataversity.net forward slash subscribe. Today, we are joined by Gwen Thomas, a data strategist at the Data Governance Institute. And normally, this is where a podcast host would read a short bio of the guest, but in this podcast, your bio is what we're here to talk about when, hello and welcome. Hello, my friends. I was just, we were just talking about how we met for the very first time at Enterprise Data World 2011 in Chicago. That was my first data conference with Dataversity and I, you were one of the first people I met. I'm so honored. It's been such a joy to chat with you over all these years and I'm so excited to talk about how things have changed and evolved over those years too. But, you know, hello, I'm so excited for you to be here. And I so enjoyed our discussion about, now, how far back did we meet? And it was mostly a recital of conferences and industry events because, frankly, the evolution of those events paralleled the evolution of my career. So, you know, to all listeners, you can read books, you can read online, you can learn on the job, but there is absolutely nothing that compares to not only the classroom experience in conferences, but the conference within the conference, the hallway talk, the discussions with those who have been there. So I know you're not going to plug DataVersity or events, but consider that my plug for you because that's what a career to me has looked like, learning from experts along the way. Well, I so appreciate you saying that and it's true, the networking, it's my favorite part of the events is the networking and, you know, and that's where we touch base every time is when you're speaking and getting to know each other. Again, have the privilege to see, you know, your journey along the last 10 years. So let's get into it. So today you are a data strategist at the Data Governance Institute. So tell me about the Data Governance Institute. So the institute was formed one year ago this fall over this summer. And it is an online presence. Most people know it by its URL, datagovernance.com. And it provides information on the discipline, the practices of data governance. It has an online membership group. And we have heard from people at conference, from people who write into us, that over the past 20 years, our teachings and our trainings have influenced data governance programs all around the world. So the institute kind of defines explanation on my part. Oh, I love that because, you know, and that's part, you know, we mentioned the networking and that's part of what I love so much about this community is there's so much, so many people willing to help each other out. Sure, sure. And what many people don't know is you founded the Data Governance Institute. So what prompted you to do that? And what is your role in the company now? Okay, so I'm going to answer that backwards. Okay. I've just rejoined the company as an analyst and I have been updating some content and providing some online training on how to use the DGI's framework to, as you either create a program or join the program. The 10 years before that, I left the institute and others capable hands while I spent 10 years with the World Bank Group. But now let's go back to its founding 20 years ago and it's kind of tied to a question that you said you might ask me about what was a big lesson to learn. Okay, so 20 years ago I was five years into a career with consulting companies doing IT management, being a business analyst, assistant coders doing data management, etc. And the Sardines Oxley Act of 2002 was passed and this act in the US made it illegal for a CEO or a CFO to post incorrect financial reports about their company. Now, why it wasn't illegal before, I don't know. I mean, that's crazy, right? There's a whole history behind that and scandals. But the result was the whole data, whole IT industry and mostly the accounting industry was just revolutionized. There were all of the efforts that had to be undertaken to ensure that your data was controlled against all the things that can go wrong with data. And I, on behalf of my current employer, attended events on what happens. And my mind was blown. Nobody was talking about the data, the data practices. They were talking about reporting. They weren't talking about the practices. They weren't talking about the human element of what goes into ensuring that data is what it's supposed to be. And so the lesson that I have sitting there in this room full of the big four accounting firms is wait a minute, data management is about data and technology. The thing they're not talking about data governance, that's about people. That is about people and you cannot be successful here if you are not addressing the people, the the ones who get together within a group and decide which other groups that powers to make decisions, the people who actually make those decisions. And what happens if the right people aren't in the room? Which was the scenario I was in at that moment. What happens if the right people aren't making assignments about the right work that needs to be applied to the data? So the right controls are put in place. So the data itself can be shaped and curated and structured so it actually needs your needs. So sitting in this crappy, crappy little conference room in a hotel in Texas, I said, wait a minute, publishing, governance, it's data, identity and publishing. Each administration has to organize all this content. There's nothing new there. Marketing knows how to organize content. Here, these guys are talking about structured data, but please, where is the discipline? Where is the expertise about organizing, managing, making decisions about the content in these enterprise systems? So I went home from Texas to Florida, did my research, found nothing, nothing, nothing. As a matter of fact, a Google search for the term data governance showed 52 hits total. And 39 of them were IBM because they formed a little committee. So I said, folks, this is going to be the birth of an industry. And I bought data governance.com and I told my boss in six months, I'm leaving this enjoyed and that's how it got started. Of course, there were a few other people around the globe and in the U.S. having similar thoughts. And we all ended up at those first conferences about this topic. So amazing. You were so forward thinking and I want to come back to data governance in a bit. But because I think that you and I could talk about that for hours. We have in the past. But I wanted to drill in on the point where you talked about and you mentioned that data governance is about people. Yes, it is. It's so true. So many people think it's, even today, so we get so many people asking for help. How do they talk their executives into doing data governance? Because their executives think it's a dirty word. They think it's just about complying with laws and it's just about adhering to laws and it's a pin on the rear end and it's just something you have to do. But it is. It's about the people. It's about so much more than adhering to the legal standards. And so I'm going to say what I've been saying for the last 20 years. Governance is such a word in your organization. You use a different one. Yeah. You use a different word. The work is the same. Likewise for compliance. I recently coached a company that did not want to use the word compliance at all. So I said, fine, commitments. What commitment has your organization made? What that your leader has made to the industry, to their customers, to the board? How are you going to help them meet those commitments? Totally no spin on things, right? Yeah. Oh, can you tell I did a little stint as an English speaker? We'll get to that for sure. Well, so what's the most creative you think rewording of that that you've seen? Oh boy. In flubbing here. I threw you, I know I threw you one for a while. Yeah, I want to think. Well, there is, here's my answer. Yeah. So before there was a field called human factors that focuses on user interfaces. I knew a company that used that term human factors to bring the human approach to the business of the business and this human factors team what consisted what I would call family counselors and they call select haters and negotiators and all of these human human resources terms and they would cycle through the organization to with the goal of working with leadership in different programs to understand how human nature and management training go into optimizing an organization. Sure. So what's the difference between those disciplines and the people side of data governance? Not a whole lot. Although they would probably have an extra zero at the end of their paychecks. As it goes. That's funny. All right, well, let's back it up here. Let's get some of your bios. So when when you were just, you know, maybe five, six years old, was this the dream? You're like, I'm going to grow up and I'm going to start a data governance institute and be a data strategist for them. Sweetheart, I didn't see a computer until I was in my teenage years. So of course not. I did want to be a librarian. And of course, there's a big aspect of this. My father was a psychologist. So maybe that came into play. My mother was a writer. So maybe that came into play. But I could not have envisioned 2000, the year 2000, much less 2023. Just like the people listening now really cannot envision what the world technology and information life is going to be like 20, 30 years now. They can, however, know what they love to do. And find a way to discover things in which they can hopefully be happy doing what they do, regardless of how the world has changed around them. Yeah, I love that. So so tell me then, tell me about the journey. So what did you start studying? And what did you, as you got into high school and what, what evolved as your passion? So I like many other people that became very passionate about something I was not able to do that. I was a musician. I wanted to be a composer more than anything, a conductor. I went to college and learned that it was the architecture of music that I liked. And that I had no skill whatsoever as a performer, none, and decided not to be a teacher. So I actually left all that behind and went and did some other things. I told you I did a stint with the marketing organization where I discovered I'm pretty good at explaining how things work and what they do. I was a teacher for English teacher for a little while. And then I went into tech writing. It was only when I had an assignment working with a data person who was trying to pull reports out of a database that had no documentation. They had no understanding of how the data was structured that I said, here, maybe this will help. I pulled out a piece of paper and I started creating on paper. What I was later told was a data model. And when I said based upon my knowledge of where the data is on the screens, it would make sense to organize it this way with these fields here and those fields there. What do you call this thing? And the woman with a look on her face said, okay, very funny. You're a ringer, right? No, no. What do you call this thing? A table. So another big light bulb moment. I said, oh, can I make a living doing this? And would it be more than I'm making now my crappy little job? Yes. And yes. Do I have to go to college? If you wait 10 years, you'll have to go to college in this discipline. But if you slip in now, you won't have to. So now when I look at data flowing through systems. Now remember, everything's invisible that we do right. Everything is invisible. The data is invisible. The processes, the systems, the flow. But I'm right back in music school where I'm focusing on a melody and I'm watching that single note flow through the orchestra across the different pieces of the music. And I found my home. Oh, I love that story. I didn't know that you majored in music. And that's the architecture of it. You're right. I mean, it's so relatable and so translatable. And so then how did you start learning? So you've created a table just by accident. So how did you start focusing on that and developing that as a career? What was your next step? So at the time was working in a bank. And I looked for a job where I could be paid as a lowly tech writer, but in a software development environment. And then I was surrounded with people to learn from. And it would be convenient to say, okay, so where do I go to learn about this little piece? And where do I go to learn about this little piece? And my superpower is I'm a doc connector. I am a synthesis, a word I didn't learn until I was in my 30, as the guy says. But I can take a body of work from here and here and here and pull them together. And so that's all right. Here's to our listeners here. If you are early in your career and you're not sure what you're going to do. Discover your passion as I just talked about and discover your superpower. The thing that you are naturally good at that not everyone is. And the third, discover what you are interested in so much that you are willing to just dive in and spend hours learning about it on your own. Now put those three together. You have a profile of the type of work you want to do. I wanted to connect dots. I wanted to work with the human aspect of working with data. I naturally wanted to work in how everything fits together. I didn't want to be a nitpicker. And that's why I did not go into QA or checking anything. But all of you listening, if you're early in your career, if you know how to put those pieces together, what are you doing when you feel joy at work? The glow in just I guarantee there is a discipline within the field of data management and data governance that is a perfect fit for you. I guarantee you just find the part where your interests and your superpower and your perspective all come together. And no matter how the technology changes around you, you'll find your own career path. Such great advice, Gwen. And we have those conversations at data university all the time, especially when we're in the process of growing, we have those conversations. What part of your jobs do you love? Because we always have those little bits that you're not. Yeah, and you just got to play the game. But what do you love? What do you want to hand off? Because you can find somebody and hire into, find somebody who loves that job, that piece that you don't love. Right, so diverse, right? It's okay to love different things and be good at different things and acknowledge that. And I love that you talk about so much and how curious you were. And you ask questions. You found mentors. You found a place where you could learn and grow into what you wanted. That's awesome, yeah. Such a great conversation or such a great advice for people. And so from there, Gwen, so you learned a code. You're getting into technology. So I never did a script as a coder myself. However, working in a software environment, I still dream in COBOL. I learned to read it well enough. And then I did a little bit of coding. I built a metadata repository for a company that didn't have one. But it was really just the prototype. I was using basic language and I built something and then handed it to bosses. And they said, that's great. And I said, it's not enterprise ready. I said, great, thanks. We'll take it from you and hand it to someone else. And that's another aspect of working in our field. You need to know yourself. Do I have to be the one that owns it? Do I have to have credit for launching something? Or are you good being a change agent, a prototyper, someone who gets it started? Or in the last 10 years, I've been the guy behind the guy. I've been the person sitting behind leadership. Corraling up the information and perspective that they need so they could make decisions. Some of the unhappy people I know weren't honest with themselves about which of those they want. Oh, and I left out that you just want to be clickety clackety doing the work. That's fine too. That's fine. But to be happy, you have to notice about yourself and slide into position where the nature of the job meets your nature. And again, there's room for everything in data management. It is a microcosm of the whole friggin world. I love that. You know, I wish I had learned that lesson so much earlier in life. Well, I have the scar on my back from when I learned that. Yeah, we're taught so young that we have to be the best at everything, right? We have to win. I think especially in the younger gen millennials or Gen Z's, but certainly older generations. Hey, I'm a boomer. I want to be the first to say. The people in their 20s and early 30s now who are accused of being snowflakes. No, you go girl. You know yourself. You know what's right. You know what's acceptable. You know what's unacceptable and you're not afraid to state it. Go, go, go. Do it. I am with you all the way. Yeah, right? Again, if we had that lesson that 20. Oh, wow. Visit dataversity.net and expand your knowledge with thousands of articles and blogs written by industry experts, plus free live and on demand webinars covering the complete data management spectrum. While you're there, subscribe to the weekly newsletter so you'll never miss a beat. So, so, so, so where did you see? Have you been in finance most of your career? You look some you started kind of in thinking and I have and it was because I love money. I'm actually, you know, I talked about following the data. I worked with hundreds of people who can follow the money through and and I'm not interested. But in early days of data governance, that too was paying. So yeah, and at a certain point, you gain some of that expertise. It's kind of silly to walk away from it. Yeah, you know, it has been, you know, the finance and the banking industry of the world and, you know, insurance healthcare, you know, that's kind of led that there's so much data and so much regulation, right? That they have to that they have to deal with. So many commitments have been made. Yeah, yeah. So, so, you know, it kind of brings me around to another question that you or something that you brought up at the beginning, you know, about data governance and it being people oriented. Have you seen that change as it's evolved and as more industries do get into data governance? Have you seen it? Are there as the tech changes as everything else changes? Have you seen data governance change? So the reason data governance exists is different in every organization. That's really important. I mean, if you're a small community colleague and you need data governance, it's probably just to keep track of your records and, you know, on the other hand, if you're working in pharmaceuticals and you're trying to discover the next big thing, then you're focused on insight. You focus upon discovery and your technology. So I got two extremes here. Your technology is designed for different purposes. You're going to have technology staff who have the right skills, expertise, and knowledge to work within that environment. You're going to have data management team who can specialize with the same types of the right types of technology challenges and types of data that you're working with. And you're going to have data governance liaison, facilitators who can work with data management in those areas. So, yes, that part of data governance has always been changing, always will change. The person who has trouble answering, am I in data governance or data management? Likewise, leadership expectations are different in various environments. And today's leaders are expected to take a more human approach to leadership. So that aspect is the same. The piece in the middle of data governance between the leadership and working with technicians and business people, the core concept don't change. They really don't. People need to know how to work together. They need to know how to make decisions. We need to challenge whether the right people are making decisions. Using the right criteria. And, you know, this part doesn't really change. But because these are the dot connectors, the matchmaker people that work with so many people across the organization, the specific knowledge and skills. Yes, that's true of all. How do you govern through Antonio? How does data governance change if your organization has put in place dev ops? How is data governance changing if now you have noticed that, just like with governance actually, the right people aren't in the room. And suddenly, security thinks that access is being handled by the business, and business thinks access is being handled by security. By the way, I spent the last four years at the World Bank for designing access governance. So yes, always the same, always changing. Makes sense. So, you know, with this in-depth career in data, I mean, just almost a founder of data governance, you know, what is your definition of data? How many angels are happened to be dancing on that pin at this moment here? Okay, it is whatever you need it to be. It's information captured electronically. And being in finance, most of my career has been working with basic structured data, but in other fields, it is what you need it to be. And it all needs to be governed and it all needs to be managed. Yeah, yeah, it's very, very true. So, and do you see the importance of data management and the number of jobs working with data increasing or decreasing over the next 10 years and why? Very interesting. Always important. The more successful we are in our work to standardize and mechanize, the more of our work goes into tools, but also the higher our inspirations go. So, my belief is the jobs will always be there. The focus, the expertise, the specialties will change. And some of them may no longer be full data management. I mean, data science, right? Data engineers. Put a new title on it and see what happens. Yeah, very much so. So, any other advice that you would give to somebody who's brand new and looking to get into career? I mean, you've given some great advice already. There's so many different aspects, like you said. You can find somewhere where you fit and find, based on what you're saying, in terms of career possibilities, in terms of growth in data management careers, it's pretty sustainable career, it sounds like. Yes, the sooner you get into any position where you are surrounded, where your work is acknowledged as a discipline, then the easier your price will be. You know, you live in a city, you live in a city, it's easy to forget. Half of the U.S., much less the world, live in areas where maybe there is not any place that keeps a full-time data management person, maybe. And if that's the case, then, yeah, you're going to have to choose between a future career in a discipline in a city and being where you are and doing work to do it. That's probably a completely different topic from what you were asking. But what I will say is, if you feel like you are in an environment where this kind of work can be done, pay attention as early as you can to who you are and what you want to be. And then be curious, go in. I found the whole concept that when I started playing Dungeons and Dragons, at the ripe old age of 50, I said, what are these things called character sheets? And why don't every human being have one? If I had a character sheet for myself at age 28, I would never have gone into that castle. I would have gone on that side quest. So some guys, maybe that's my advice to people early in their career. If you were a character in a game, how would you be configured? And what adventures would you go on and always carry a tail? Oh, I love that advice. If you get it, you get it. Yeah, I do. I'm not ashamed of it. I have been playing D&D for a very long time. It has been such a pleasure, as always, to talk to you again. I could talk to you for hours and hours. But I do want to keep the podcast here to a reasonable time. So I don't want to leave without giving you a chance to plug DGI and just, you know, again, datagovernance.com. I mean, that's so easy to remember. But we'll, of course, put that on the website, on the podcast and everything. But tell me a little bit about why and when people should reach out to you. Well, it's a good place to get started at school of every content. And you set people working in the field who are not early in their career, but they have, they're doing a rotation through data governance, or they have been assigned here. And the site has been designed to be vendor-nucle to not give advice, yet seems quite reasonable until you realize you're being corralled into using a specific tool. It's very, very general. And there are those who are members can deep dive into some materials. But I'm not here to really pitch a certain path, as I said. It's more about learning how you work and if the contents at datagovernance.com can help individuals as they enter the room and decide who to talk to and what libraries to study and what paths appeal to them, then that would be great. Love it. Well, Glenn, it has been a pleasure, as always. I really appreciate you taking the time to chat with us today. And it's always wonderful to see you. I will see you at the next conference. Yes. I'm so excited. EDW is in person again and so excited. I can't wait to see the crew, but, you know, and see everybody. So even though we've seen each other at the last couple of data governance conferences. You know, I still live in Washington. So when you come for the December one there, let me show you some local haunts. Oh, I would love that, Gwen. I would love that a lot. So I will take you up on that. Everyone, I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as my friend and I have. And if any of this helps you find a path, then I'm a happy person. Oh, Glenn, thank you. Oh, that's amazing. Thank you. All right. And thanks to all the people who are listening. And if you'd like to keep up with the latest in data management and education, you may go to dataversity.net forward slash subscribe until next time and stay curious people. Thank you for listening to Dataversity Talks, a podcast brought to you by Dataversity. 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