 So it's great to see so many people on. Let me just see if I think the idea was we're going to take down the slide so we can all see each other is that the idea. Ah, fabulous. Good to see everyone now. Hello, I'm Catherine Dominguez, the current director of the Ford School joint doctoral programs. Welcome, and thank you for joining us today. It's wonderful to see the mix of attendees for today's session. I see some current PhD students alumni and prospective students. We're all here to celebrate the 20th anniversary of our joint doctoral programs with this dynamic panel. We are especially happy to have Mary Corcoran joining us from Hawaii no less today. Mary started the joint PhD program and nurtured it into what it is today. Brian Jacob is also joining us today. He was the director of the program for a number of years. Again, just great to see all of you. I'm about to turn it over to my colleague Celeste Watkins Hayes. Celeste is the associate dean for academic affairs and founding director of the Center for racial justice. She is also the Jean E Fairfax collegiate professor of public policy, university, diversity and social transformation professor and professor of sociology. So take it away Celeste. Thank you so much Catherine. Truly appreciate it. Hello everyone. It is such a pleasure and an honor to be with you. It's just wonderful that you're gathering here to celebrate the 20th anniversary of the PhD program, but also to come back into each other, to get an opportunity, even if just for a moment, even if on Zoom, to nevertheless see each other, to reconnect, to reflect on the role that this program has played in your lives and careers. And also to talk among now colleagues about where we are as it relates to conversations around public policy as it relates to racial justice. And then about and about a whole host of other questions that we want to grapple with today so I want to thank you and welcome you into the space. It's really my honor to present the panel. As you know, there are so many amazing careers to speak of within the PhD community and we could have had any and all of you, alums on the panel. But we nevertheless had to select just a few to really kind of showcase the diversity of work that you're doing in different sectors and different fields. And I also of course want to acknowledge and welcome the current PhD students who are students at the school and also prospective students, prospective PhD students, and also students who are in the process of moving into PhD programs who are doing masters and perhaps, perhaps bachelor's degrees. So, welcome and welcome to all of the faculty my colleagues who have been active leaders and parts of this of this program. So without further ado, it's really my honor to present to you your panel for this afternoon. I would like to introduce Dr. LaRue Lewis McCoy who received the PhD in 2008. Currently an associate professor in the sociology of education program in the department of applied statistics social science and humanities at New York and the Reinhardt School of Culture, Education and Human Development. LaRue holds his PhD in public policy and sociology from UN U of M and a bachelor's degree in sociology for Morehouse College in Atlanta just across the street from my alma mater of Spelman. LaRue's research, his central line of research concentrates on educational inequality particularly focused on the intersecting roles of race class and in place, his first book in equality in the, in the promised land race resources and suburban schooling, examine the experiences of low income and racial minority families attempts at accessing school related resources and an affluent suburb. He's currently fielding a multi site ethnographic study in Westchester County that examines residents experiences with housing and schools, and his larger research interests include race and racism, gender justice and community mobilization his research has appeared in multiple edited volumes and academic journals, such as urban education, American educational research journal and ethnic and racial studies. He is a frequent media contributor and public speaker, including to outlets such as Ebony magazine the Rio, the route US News and World Report and on channels such as CNN and Al Jazeera. Prior to joining NYU Steinhardt School he held an appointment as an associate professor of sociology and black studies at the city College of New York, and was a member of the doctoral faculty at the CUNY Graduate Center so welcome LaRue. Next we have Alexander Alex, Resh, holding the PhD starting in 2008. Um, Alexandra, Resh Alex is the director of learning and strategy in Mathematica's human resources human services unit. Since joining Mathematica in 2008 Alex is focused on educational research and a specialized in developing the capacity of programs and local organizations to generate and use evidence to improve their programs from August of 2018 to October of 2019 Alex served as an interim senior program officer on the measurement learning and evaluation team for the K through 12 strategy at the bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. In this role Alex contributed to the development of a measurement and evaluation framework for R&D in education. Alex or Dr. Resh holds the PhD in economics and public policy from U of M. We have Dr. Kennedy Turner who received her PhD in 2019. Kennedy is the director of graduate education and fellowships at leadership enterprise for a diverse America in this role. Kennedy supports high achieving low income students in reaching their educational and leadership goals, and prior to joining the leadership enterprise for a diverse education. Kennedy earned her PhD in public policy and sociology here at U of M her research explored the racial identity and development of black college students at elite public institutions and prior to coming to Michigan. Kennedy earned her BA in political science from Howard University age you in Washington DC. And Kennedy is originally from Wichita Kansas and currently lives in Louisiana so welcome welcome welcome panelists it's so great to connect with you and be with you. So, I have many questions for you but first I would love as I just read those amazing bios that you have. I would love for you to think about the relationship between your current professional projects, and your training at the Ford School and in the PhD program and help us understand and reflect upon how policy analysis and research, the training that you received at the Ford School factors into how you shape your work right now and the skills that you find most useful. And we will just go in the order in which I introduced you and then we'll switch it around so the room I'm going to start with you. Great. Thanks, last, and thanks everyone for giving me a chance to share and to meet some of you along the way. So I think to answer your question I have to like get in my time machine for a second and I came to Michigan to do my PhD in sociology and just as that was happening, I was going through my standard coursework and I was beginning to understand the sociology of race and the power of institutions and structures and, and theory and I and I found myself towards the end of my first year, a little bit disappointed because a lot of the conversation that was happening in sociology was around demarcating differences among race talking about the social destruction of race. And I said, particularly as someone who is black I was like so what do we do about it. And I remember having a conversation with my then theory professor and they said well the practice that we do is writing journal articles. If you're interested in practice, you can submit to this article and I was like, that seems woefully insufficient. And I said well, well, where on campus do they do things about these problems around racism around poverty around gender discrimination. And I don't know if that professor mentioned intentionally but I'm like, maybe you should look over at the policy school. And I got referred over to the Ford School and at that point. Sheldon Dan Liger was someone that I met in passing and I went to his office and he said look there's this new thing that we are launching and it's a joint program between public policy and sociology. And if you want to do something kind of understand how to do something about inequity along race lines along class lines along gender lines, you should consider it. And I'd never really thought about public policy as a path for myself. While I was at the Ford School I met a number of folks that is thinking around policy interventions, alumni of the PPIA program, etc. But I was like, well, maybe, and what happened when I was in the joint program was I started to see the complementary nature between social scientific investigation and also policy analysis and intervention. One of the things that was a struggle immediately was that I felt like some of the conversations I was having in sociology were particularly nuanced around conversations of race and power and institution and structure. And some of the conversations I was having in policy were very target to set up bills and analysis and memo writing, but they weren't always coming together. And so I ended up finding in the PhD program, a set of scholars and friends whom I could go to to kind of trouble through these questions so early on it was people like her when Charles who was there it was Tony Chen who was there. It was now a late mentor David Cohen who started to get me to think about, how do you want to think about the intersection of these two pieces because oftentimes we discuss inequality but we're afraid to mention a thing like racism. We don't talk about policy interventions, but we don't talk about the history that has created unequal access for these groups. And so it was between the Ford school and LSNA. And it was between the conversations I would have with peers who were kind of living out these worlds that I started to think about, really, what does it mean to have the public and policy and what does it mean to intervene on problems. And not just in a way where we can capture and make a little bit of progress, but really try to attack the depth of inequality that kind of wraps around our world. And the Ford school helped me do that because the program challenged me in different ways there were ways in which as a sociologist I've kind of gotten used to saying oh we're going to talk about policy but it'll be the last paragraph or two of what we write, but it said making it central and how I think about educational inequality today how I think about who has power within a citizenry and what it means to actually do the work towards justice. Interesting. And Alex, how about for you take us along that journey and talk to us about the training that you received and the experience you had and how it, it shows up in terms of your current work and how you thought about building your career around your training in the PhD program. Absolutely. Thanks Aless. And I'm glad the room went first because so much of what he said really resonated with me. You know so I came I also did not apply to the joint program because it was brand new when I arrived but I actually did find out about it before I got there so I was like a slight step ahead of lure. But and like I always thought of myself as an economist I had been working at the Federal Reserve like I was an economist. And I think I'm coming late to the like, maybe relatively late to like my dissatisfaction with like economics as a field, like I probably should have studied sociology I have learned in the last couple years. Yeah. But so we, and I was reflecting on like thinking about this whole topic, like really thinking about like in my training my whole life, you know starting in undergrad like race was just like an explanatory variable or it was a category we were using to look at gaps. And, like, similar to what Laruse said like that's not helpful right like that's not sufficient to like sort of solve, probably improve our schools improve our society. And so, like the thing that I think more than any particular skill at like that I learned at the Ford school I think just like the network and like the, the norm that you should be talking across disciplines and there's those things to learn and people to learn from. Like I think that was like the most valuable thing and the thing I would not have gotten if I had just stayed as an economist. And so, you know, like the room and I were in the second year seminar together with crew and and like that like that, like it built me a network of people I can like think of and at least like look at what they're writing if not call them. And then you know we further later years like I had a writing group but that was some of the other sociology and political science students and we would just like sit together somewhere and be writing but like, you know it built some engagement with what other people were thinking. That, you know I never learned in school and never would learn in school as an economist certainly and I wonder if like the Ford school maybe could focus more on this over time was just how much like even when I got right to mathematics in 2008. The thing that was like a shock to me was like how much the job really is like sales, like I had to sell the idea of research to a superintendent and then to a principal, and then like convince them that they wanted to know the answer to these questions and that it was worth their time and resources to like engage with us. And then so now and then like carrying that on then like once we learn something from that work, we have to sell it to policymakers we have to sell it to funders. And so just sort of thinking about like that's something that I've definitely like learned on the job, and still have a lot to learn, but like you know the more time goes on the more my job is about communications and understanding different audiences and what they need and what would be convincing to them and like so that's been super interesting to me and continues to be where I need more work. Really interesting. And Kennedy, how about for you. Talk to us about your process in your journey. Yeah, sure. So, um, I did apply directly to the joint PhD program. It was, it was in existence when I came along and, and I was looking for that that mix of applied and what are we going to do about the problems like Laura was mentioning. And so that was definitely something that was important to me and as I moved through graduate school it became even more important and, and the part that I really loved about graduate school, where the teaching and the, the mentoring and the, the service work you know and that's sort of what made me interested in going the nonprofit route and going the direct service route in terms of my career and being able to work directly with students. My dissertation work was on the experience of black college students and then now in my current role I work hands on with students starting from high schoolers all the way up through through graduate students and black and brown students who are, are trying to get into and in these institutions and I think that the policy training and the mindset of, of research even though that wasn't my favorite part about grad school I have a deep appreciation for an understanding of it. And it's always important to, to bring that lens to what we do in the nonprofit sector and to bring that focus on evaluation bring that focus on understanding the structures with within which these individuals are operating and making sure that we don't go too far on the other side where we're so focused on helping individuals that we, how are we taking what we're learning from working with individuals to then speak back to these larger structures and to try to transform the structures that necessitate programs such as ours in the first place. And so I think that's sort of the types of things that I'm thinking about now, and the type of skill set that is helpful to bring to bear and I find a lot of those same skills and evaluation skills that we craft in in the Ford school are helpful when they're but now they're applied to these very direct problems of how do we improve our organization's outcomes how do we, you know, work with students better how do we increase our capacity increase our reach, and how do we make sure that we actually are effectively reaching our mission and vision. And so it's definitely been been helpful training, but yeah just a little bit different of a level on the scale. And let me ask you this Kennedy and then I'm going to ask all the panelists, you know, as you know, we had a kind of national conversation and reckoning on race and racism. With the murder of George Floyd and the recognition that there were many people on men women non binary folks who had had suffered and whose lives have been lost. Due to racism and racist institutions and racist ideologies. And I wonder if you can talk about how you see the conversation around race. Moving. What changes have you seen pre versus current 2020. Do you think that we are. Do you think that we advance the conversation, are we engaging in the conversation differently are we using new and better frameworks. Do you see that playing out within your institutions. Yeah, yeah, I think that's such a good question and a big question and I think now we're definitely in this part where we're, you know, coming up on a year 18 months after so many of those promises were made so many who had this reckoning and so now we're at a point where we're able to sort of do some of that. Okay, well, which it impromptu did y'all really keep. And I think the way that it shows up in in the nonprofit that I work for it in our world is that all of a sudden will so our organization yes it has leadership enterprise for a diverse America so leader is the organization and and we focus on we say that we serve high achieving low income students that's the language that we use but the reality is is that we mostly serve black and brown students, but there had been some reluctance to sort of call it out and say it for what it is. But then all of a sudden, last summer there's a lot of conversations about like, ooh, they've been giving out money for people who don't stuff about race though we do stuff about race. And then so trying to reframe we do and tell the story of what we do. And what we've always been doing but now having permission based on the funding structures that exist to speak directly to race in ways that I think some members of the board or other players and maybe had been more reluctant to do so in previous time and so I think that is one way that it's really showed up in this space about all of a sudden, if there's money for something then how can that reframe how we talk about what we're doing, even if the reality of what we're doing is the same but that's one thing that I definitely have an eye on to see how that will continue to change and shift and what the future years will bring when, you know, when when this reckoning isn't such top of mind anymore. But I think on a larger societal note, it has been very, very interesting to watch folks have some conversations and to to to to to to sort of try to move the needle forward in some of their understanding of terms use of just recognition acknowledgement that the black folk exist and that our experience in this country and in this world is is is is in part shaped by the the racial structure of our country. And I don't know yet I don't know exactly if all of this is a good thing or not there's several individual circumstances that I can point to of changes that were made in certain institutions post 2020 that I believe to be good but I do. The research part of me is not completely gone and I feel like we need more data we need more evidence to really be able to make claims of, of whether or not these things are successful and whether these are long term improvements or whether they are just more short term things and we'll see when we get to year three and five sort of where we are as a society. Very interesting Alex what do you think. So many thoughts. I think that I think I have a similar sort of like the couple of themes I would say are sort of like what I've seen be different over the last year and a half is people getting more precise with their language and being willing to sort of say oh this is what we meant in the first place like I told about that idea of sort of saying low income and being like oh actually we mean this really resonates with me. And I think the end so like I'm from the institutional side right like even you know we've been thinking about diversity and equity and inclusion for a long time. But in the last year like only in the last year has like Mathematica put out a statement that said like no we mean racial justice like, you know social justice and racial justice or what we're talking about as part of that right. And similarly at the, like, at the Gates Foundation and then I still do a lot of work with foundations it's been like that I think has been a place where there's like there's a lot of foundations who are pushing a little harder than the federal government I think the federal like, trying to work through what they want to say and can say, but I think there's definitely movement like opere at HHS like just revised their whole research and evaluation policy to be a little bit more specific about what they need. And to put a little bit more of an equity lens on things I don't know that they go as far as talking directly about recent racial justice. But I'm like working on one project where we support a set of education grantees grantees that are building education products to improve math outcomes. And it's under this. It's an R&D program called the advanced education R&D fund. And so the CFPAL bus math program like they say explicitly in their, all their paperwork, you know that they're in their primary objective and like reading this is to rework research and development as inclusive and anti racist. And so like they are front and center with that they're putting a lot of resources behind that they're building that they have, you know a bunch of different groups of different kinds of stakeholders who are like engaged from start to finish. And I think that places where I still see challenges are, and like, I mean they know that they're building this and trying to figure out what works, what will work but like, the place where it gets tricky like people I think so this is R&D you're starting developing programs from the ground up. There's lots of comfort with engaging stakeholders in the development process. Once you get to the research piece, people get a lot less comfortable. And so the question I think like, you know, some of our founders are saying like who gets to ask the questions are these the right questions, who should be at the table at the back that's real movement that I'm excited about. But then a lot of times they don't actually like the answers, you know, like sometimes like, oh wait, I, we didn't actually want to like change the questions, you know, and so I think trying to figure out like that balance is something that I hope will keep moving on in the next couple of weeks. It's really interesting to be in the middle of it and it's also like it goes against all my training some of the time, you know, and so it's been, I think there's lots of movement and there's lots of promise and as Kennedy said like we'll see how it goes. Very interesting. What do you think. So yeah, I'm definitely going in the same direction as Kennedy and Alex. So, the first thing is that I think 2020 was an important moment. But I think the way we frame things has a lot about what's actually going on so we had this moment where folks are talking about a racial wreckage. And racial reckoning presumes that the folks that people have to have to come face to face with race. We've called for a million conversations. We've talked about getting better at race. What we never actually talk about is racism, right? Racism is largely absent from our discussions of intervention. We want racial justice. We want to be anti-racist, right? We don't name the systems that are at the core, at the center. There's been no reckoning. What happened for me is really a question of racial recalibration. We're in the 21st century and now there is a battle over what these categories of race and which systems of racism will be in place to actually hoard opportunities. This for me in 2020 when I saw, you know, I was excited, right? We had the largest and most continual set of uprisings in America and really globally around resisting extrajudicial police killings and violence, particularly against black folks, right? Violence against poor folks, violence against queer folks. But what we never, what I really never expected is that from that movement for people to say, you know what, there is something so deeply wrong that we have to change everything. In fact, we've gone back to this place of like, well, what can we tinker with, right? And Alex and Kennedy have spoken a lot to like this question of like, what are we able to say now and not say? And the problem is folks like Kennedy have been doing work that has been impacting and deeply dealing with these issues. But if you can't say the truth of what your work is doing, and it's all tied to these strings where the money is tied to people who are like, well, how is a way that you can state it that's more palatable? We haven't even begun to move, right? And I think Alex talks about that tension and I see it, right? I even see it myself as someone who works with schools or even works with one of the research projects that happens around school boards. In a year and a half ago, nobody wanted to talk to me about school boards. Now, everyone's like, we've got to talk about school boards. You've got to talk about this critical race theory backlash. This is where the problem is. I was like, no, I want to talk about racism in school boards, about literally who even sits there, right? Not the bombastic in your face stuff, which matters. But I'm talking about what does it mean to have entire communities where the majority of students are black, are brown, are low income, and the majority of folks who occupy board seats are fluent in white. It doesn't mean to have them actually controlling the death needs of children and communities that they don't listen to. That kind of systematic, deep sets of issues that we know are present, those will actually get brought to the floor, right? These flashpoints get people excited. But if we really had a reckoning moment, it would really mean you had to give something up. I think part of our attachment to or even the idea that we can have a reckoning moment is that there are ways in which inequality, people can be sensitized to and willing to talk about. But when there's an implication of yourself, it's like, well, let's step back, right? We can have a conversation about justice. We can have a conversation about equity. But we can't talk about racism in the Ford school, racism at University of Michigan. We talk about racial justice. I'm like, until we can talk about it in the institution and name it, then we haven't even begun to do the work. I'm excited that people are getting more specific with their language, but I definitely think those who have power actually have to literally yield power and actually listen because these aren't new conversations. So George Floyd's death was absolutely important, but I remember three years ago when a grassroots research initiative, Operation Ghetto Storm, literally said every 36 hours someone black is killed by the police. And so I thought, well, that can't be right. Let me see the methodology of this study. Right. And now we're like, oh yeah, just what police killing garnish, they've been an issue. They were issued in the 1950s and the 60s, right? So if you're catching it up, catching up in 2020, I'm saying the folks who are catching on now, I'm like, wow, can you imagine what you really missed? Mm hmm. And I want to follow up on that and pose this question for all of you all, because what you're talking about also is where the levers of power are operating and where you feel like you can make some movement and where it feels intractable. And in a policy school, and in policy conversations, I think we want to believe that we have equal opportunity to hit every lever to move the needle in all kinds of policy conversations, federal, state, local, different kinds of institutional configurations, etc. And I wonder if you all could talk about that, because, you know, some of us are discouraged, quite frankly, and some of us are wondering, you know, where you actually can affect change and how you can actually affect change. And, you know, I don't know anybody more worried about that question than policy students and policy faculty, and people who have dedicated their studies and lives and careers to this notion that with research, with evidence, with the argument and data on a particular issue, you know, how can we, how can we not be successful. So I wonder if you can just kind of talk to us about, what do you think right now about the power and potential of public policy to meaningfully enact positive social change, how do you nuance that discussion in terms of the kinds of levers of power and the kinds of institutions that may be more malleable than others. And Alex, I'm going to come to you first and then LaRue, I'm going to come to you next on that question. That's a hard one, I think. I think, I mean, I think the hardest lesson I've learned since I came out of grad school was that like most people don't care about evidence and data, like that's been hard, that's been hard to hear. We all just have to sit with that one for a minute. Yeah. But I think, I mean, I think that is, you know, so it is, I mean that's part of me, you know, my, like my first response like thinking about like actually what I need to do understand better is how to communicate to these different audience like what is it that this person or this organization cares about and what's going to move them. And so I think, I mean, for me personally thinking like where do I spend my time to try to move this it is these this, you know, the foundations that are saying out loud, we care about racial justice and we're putting money behind this like maybe that's not going to last forever but we've got a minute where we have their attention, and they, you know, have convening power and can bring different people in the room and like let's get in that room and try to do the best we can at starting those conversations. And I think that piece that's hard and it kind of, I mean, when Lou Lou was talking it was, I was thinking about it like, I think there's a bunch of well meaning people who don't want to give way power. And then there's a bunch of well meaning people who would be willing to but they don't know how to go into those conversations they don't know how to lead they don't know how to organize that room they don't know how to who to bring in to lead it. And so I think like, to the extent that that's a set of like skills and people and expertise that like we could find them and bring them together like that I think would add a lot of value and so I think like helping people have those start those conversations with those conversations. I think it'd be helpful. Yes, very interesting. What do you think. I definitely agree with Alex right recognizing that data does not rule everything. And even if you place data in people's faces. It doesn't mean they'll shift course, right. And what's important for me to understand in context and kind of had a sense of this, but I felt it even more, right. The traditional tools of evaluating policies and interventions. They lean to the side of conservatism. They lean to the side of maintenance of status quo, they lean to the side of marginal change, not big shifts. Right. Even when we are preparing the most well executed statement on what we need to do with our schools, how we need to place affordable housing in different locations right how we need to do some sets of reforms around use of force right. We're always going to whittle away at the edge, but leave the center intact. Right. I struggle with that initially when I got to the poor school because I was like wait, like, none of this stuff seems to actually move the issue. Right. It makes the issue a little bit more palatable. Okay, so we didn't kill 24 people this year. We killed 20. And I'm like, 20 years right or we reduced poverty or food insecurity by like 4% and like that is something to celebrate right because I also in policy learned like, you know, Rossi's rule of intervention that on average the rate of intervention will have zero impact. Right. But I'm like, if we keep on trying to say like, we're fine, the 4%. We're fine with the idea that small changes can lead to more small changes that eventually lead to a grow so we are playing ourselves. I think there are great places for intervention around policy right so I now live in Alexandria Casio Cortez district, and I see the work that she's doing I see the work that Jamal Bowman's doing. I see the way in which they're kind of pushing things around the infrastructure bill. But I also recognize and this is something that was largely absent for the from the conversations that I have when I was cool. The role of social movements. Right. Social movements have always been in my specifically in the United States coming from communities that have been marginalized by by white supremacy and other forms of power such as capitalism. Movements have always been the places where you can hear more authentically what people need and want. And we have to actually start listening to what people need and want and take a chance on them, because no they may not have been able to literally find the area under a curve. They may not be able to present to you the perfect memo. But even when we have these perfect analyses, there's still really marginal solution. Why do we take risks on the people who have been experiencing and living through the thing. Right. I think that's when we actually return the public into policy. Right. Most times we just say policy policy policy. But if we're actually listening differently. I think if we give some power into those places that I, I expect to actually see more movement than we do. And there are very few places where we do that. Right. We are, whether it's philanthropy, whether it's academia, whether it's like collaboratively doing these things like, wait, like, I give up power and like, yeah, you've got to, because if you don't, then you're only going to, you're saying this dynamic in this relationship of research or above foundation officer above nonprofit administrator above and people below. And that fundamental relationship is going to keep intact inequity that we claim we care about. Kennedy, what do you think about this question. Yeah, it's definitely a very big question and what Luru and Alex were saying has me thinking about some things and part of it you know when we think about the success of the movement for black lives and this moment that we're in. You know, this groundwork has been laid for decades previously and I think this is a role where research and the policy work that we're doing is you know right now yeah, a lot of the things that we're saying are making changes on the margins but when we do have that moment of societal shift when we do have this big inflection point like the murder of George Floyd provided, then everything all the balls kind of get tossed in the air and in that moment where we're trying to recalibrate. We can have good evidence good data if we planted the seeds if we have these terms if people are familiar with the idea of defund the police that people are familiar with, you know the concept that black lives matter previously if we've got evidence that you know police killings are happening at this rate that when we're in this moment of flux societal flux then we can like sneak in underneath and be like, and be ready to provide a framework to move forward with and I think that's part of what has. And that's why this time was different versus Trayvon or Mike Brown or all these other moments in the recent history where we have been making these same compelling claims is that we've gotten these ideas have slipped into our lexicon people have gotten more comfortable even with the cons with some of these concepts some of the language has changed and the progress that we have made even though it has been incremental and frustrating I think makes people a little bit more prime to then be able to move to make those bigger jumps when the moment presents itself. I don't know that's just an idea that I'm still sort of thinking about based off of the earlier conversation and I know that's not like enough and but it's important that we're ready when the moment arises when people are like oh wow it's really actually too bad that X problem exists what can we do about it when we can come in and say actually hey here a bunch of well researched and well thought about solutions and things that people have been working on for years but nobody's been listening, and then when people are listening do we have something to say to them. So I think that's something that has kind of been thinking about based on on the conversation. But then also another point is that for me, when we're thinking about power and where do we actually make change I mean I think that is one of the benefits that I do have and I get to have in working direct service and with people is that you know there there is some benefit of it might be a small thing but this individual change in this individual person's life is for them a huge deal and yes it while it's horrible that you know it's not enough to just be like okay we're incrementally moving forward for that one person that the needle is moved on, it's everything you know and so that's that's a way that it's gotten me to get excited about my work and to be, you know, to feel good about that is that while it can be frustrating because we want the societal change as I said earlier, we want a world in which we don't need these sorts of interventions. Hey, each, each person each, each individual that we work with each direct service that is administered that's one step towards it and it's a way for me to sort of feel good about the fact that at least we're moving in the direction that we're trying to go. I want to ask one more question and then I would love to hear from the folks in the audience are students are prospective students in terms of what's on their mind and what they're what they're really excited to ask you about. But like I said you have a we have a lot of students here and prospective students and I wonder if you could talk a little bit about. I'm kind of the day in the life of being a PhD student. And what were the things that you did to navigate this this that reality to be able to get to where you are because you know when I think when I listen to you all. And I think about the idea that our students want to one day be the kinds of influencers you are in moving through organizations and influencing conversations in the way that you are clearly it's also doing so effectively, they've got to get through their educational challenges first. And you remember the kind of mundaneness of sometimes being a student and the struggles and the frustrations and the, why am I even here and why am I doing this. I wonder if you can speak to that a little bit offer some advice, some tips, some wisdom, some strategies, so that we can make sure that we're, we're showing up this next generation of cohort who's who's coming behind you. What, what, what would you say to this group and why don't we, why don't we start with Kennedy you want to start. Yeah, because I guess I was in that place the most recently. And, you know, the grad school experiences is a lot of things and you're you're balancing, you know, yourself as a student but also as a teacher and also as a researcher and also as a person and a, and trying to sort of put together all of those things. And it's incredibly important to keep your why front and center you know why is it that you're here what is it that you, you came to do. You know your why for this dissertation or for this grad school experience but also your larger why and kind of keeping that that separate of the graduate school, it isn't everything it's it's one part of your life but it is not your entire life and that it is one way that you are using this to then to live the life that you want to, and that life doesn't stop while you are in grad school so I think that's something to always just keep literally you know written on a post you know your mirror whatever you got to do to keep it in front of you as you you navigate that time. And I think also one thing that now that I'm outside of academia is just sort of realizing that I think sometimes academics and I know it happens in other careers but we'd love to just be so focused on ourselves and so like feeling like we're in this like unique perspective where like we're the busiest people in the entire world and we're the like most put upon or the most whatever but I think just having that perspective of you know this is your job this is one way that you show show up for yourself this is one way that you follow your passions but it's not the only way and that you know just trying to have that perspective about this is a thing that you do but it isn't all that you are and finding ways to make that work for you and make that be your own path and get what you need out of this journey setting up the boundaries for your work and for your life in a way that feels good to you so that you can remember that there is life outside of academia I think those are those are the things that right now I would say but I can get more specific later Wonderful that is great advice Alex what do you think. I think that all resonates and I think the sort of like keeping your reminding yourself there's life outside of academia or in this case grad school I think is important I think the biggest advantage I had going into grad school was that I had worked for five years before going back. So like what I saw in a lot of my college classmates was like they had only ever been in school and they had only ever been super high achievers and so like, you know, the first ever, like I still remember this it was almost 20 years ago, like my first game theory test, I got a 17 out of 100. Like that's not great. But like, I knew there was like I could get a job, you know, like I was just like well this is not good, but it wasn't like my life is over right whereas like I think of it from my colleagues like father life was over. Because many of us got very course course. And so I think like having that like recognizing I think also just like, so I had the mindset like I didn't think I had to be the best student in the PhD program and so I could go into it with the, like I was there to learn like I needed to learn stuff, and I needed to get through it. I needed to be like the top person in every class and every test and every interaction and so I think that's like a helpful mindset to come with. And then I think the other pieces like to like find your people like maybe they're in their program maybe they're not right, but like sort of find your people and like the people that will like bring you back up or sort of help you like remind you what's real or what's your mind out of school I think I mean for me like my actual like practical advice that I didn't actually realize. I had such structure until I was like thinking about it today like I had like every Saturday morning there were friends I met at Zingerman's and we had breakfast and we'd go to the farmers market and like sometimes with football games sometimes whatever but like every Saturday morning I knew that's what I was going to do, and I was going to see people that I liked. And then like there were you know Monday dinner I had Monday dinner with like a different subset of friends and like just sort of knowing those things that I didn't have to think about it I just knew it was going to happen. And I think I need like more than my life now actually to bring that back. I love that I love just such great ideas I'm writing several of these down from not just for myself but also just in terms of, you know, how, how to pass along such great wisdom and advice to students these are so I love the idea of the Monday dinner, and the you know you're going to do something fun. Um, LaRue, what advice would you give strategies tips. So first I really have a question for Alex because I need to know what kind of stipend you had to be a Zingerman's every Saturday morning, because I can't afford a Zingerman sandwich. You can get like a bagel for like $8 I've been like, oh that's a lot for a bagel I recognize but listen I'm like okay I should have had that half while I was there, because you know it's a whole different world right. My time at Ann Arbor was good because of the folks that I surrounded myself with. I'm a first generation college student, which also makes me a first generation graduate student and PhD student and then when you say, hey you're getting a PhD in sociology and policy. Half the time you can't explain it to yourself so let alone to your loved ones right. So I did a lot of translation work. I also left a lot of things on the table sometimes you can't explain it but you're going through the experience and figuring out how to go. They often look like they know everything from the outset, and they don't. I also had to start to recognize that the people who are around me who are kind of giving this like I worked 24 hours a day I'm in the lab for 18 like they were terribly unbalanced. And if they were doing that they weren't doing it well because they spent all that time and then still came out with the same outcome right. So I wanted to learn how to turn the faucet on and off with my own work and effort, because doctoral degrees encourage you to for more and more and more and more and more. And you can but you're receiving a lot. So that meant that I was meeting folks in the Ford School I was meeting master students like Jeanine Lee, like Jeff Page I was meeting PhD students like Alex like Jordan. I was also meeting folks outside of the discipline that I had chosen I was meeting folks in psychology like we were kicking it. Like we would go bowling, we would hang out because we had to be whole human beings to survive, because much of academic training tries to make you look a certain way and in that I knew way too many students got broken down. Right. Soon as the color rackum score was one of my safe haven safe spaces, and I often use it to create what I needed. What I tell my students now and their doctoral students is like learn how to find some semblance of balance right. It's not going to be perfect right you're already in a PhD program so on the scale of like, I got a little something wrong with me, you're up there. Right, you decided to submit yourself to a set of strangers and say, I'm going to study a thing. And when I've got it figured out and you say it's okay then you let me go. But you choose that it's okay. But in that choice you can figure out the ways also how to be your fuller self and enjoy the process. I loved just going to random talks. I had never been to an economic seminar until I got into the joint program and I was like, oh wow, they're really over here interrupting folks on the title slide. Like that's interesting. And then I would go over to a talk also in like history right there's so much that is happening literally on and around that campus. Don't miss the opportunity to take advantage of PhD by definition makes you very narrow, but widen, widen out yourself as much as you can, because as as weird as it may sound and I know I heard this when I was in graduate school. It's a really special moment. It's also a trying moment, but it's a super special moment if you do it right, and you get to enjoy it and whatever you go on to, whether it's industry, whether it's active activism whether it's academia right, you're going to need to go into it with a sense of balance and a sense of self, and an increased set of skills to kind of analyze and hopefully impact the world. So all of this advice remember the why from Kennedy and the notion of community from Alex and LaRue's other points about community and also this idea of enjoying interdisciplinarity and getting to know what other disciplines are thinking and talking about and the dynamics and their cultures and all of that that's all part of the process and journey. I love love love this advice. Okay, so we have a question in the chat. From Catalina, who wants to know, as a follow up to this questions read on giving up power. I know Robin D'Angelo herself has said she doesn't bring up capitalism and anti racism trainings. How do you make giving up power, IEG resources well access to prestigious educational systems palatable to those with that power I'm just curious about thinking beyond using quantitative evidence and LaRue why don't we start with you on that question. I mean Catalina came out here throwing softball questions easy one right. So the things to be clear on right me and Robin D'Angelo operate a little bit different. Robin D'Angelo will train a million more people than I ever will and have a million more dollars right, but in part because I'm also clear that when I'm in a space and I'm talking to folks. I can be as honest as I can but also meet them where they're at that doesn't mean avoiding the things that I know are going on. So I may not take the word capitalism but I can talk about economic exploitation I could talk about opportunity reporting I can talk about the way that you chose to move into a city and only send your kids to particular schools but would never look at the one that was right down the street that's populated with neighborhood kids right and we can talk and level on that and now yeah in an academic seminar saying capitalism may work but oftentimes every day people you don't need to have that explained you can talk about their actions and leave them to think about it now I also come from school thought that power can see nothing right you know like it can see nothing without demand and part of it is not simply being in a space where our movement in action comes in training right training are at their worst they're at their best they're reaching the small percentage of folks who come to the pews on Sunday right there are way more folks outside of the church on Sunday than inside right and so in that way I'm like yes training has utility but it doesn't actually get us much further you can develop small cadres of folks one of the things that I study now is literally in suburban spaces where the people who are challenging power challenging zoning challenging school and housing I think they do a great job at one of their challenges is sometimes like I can't get like my partner I can't get my husband to actually stop doing what he's doing I'm like yeah that's where the real work comes in right and so many times when we are active in change and people make a decision to give up power instead of connecting to their loved ones and connecting to their community and fighting with them and helping them understand that process they only hang out with the people who have decided to give up power. So now you want to come and sit with me at Thanksgiving I'm like don't sit with me and talk to me at Thanksgiving about racism. Talk to your uncle who's been wearing a red hat and who literally thinks that you know, QAnon is bringing truth to the world right until folks learn how to wrestle at home and wrestle outside of the choir, giving up power in ways that are kind of like comfortable. Not going to happen, but I think it's little bit and it takes all type to actually do that kind of work. Mm hmm. Alice what do you think. I 100% agree with that I think like I think. Like to go. Like this is about incrementalism right like I think this is like I think you start small like you can go into a room and be like you have to give up all your power that you're else like we're not leaving like but you can I think start these conversations and so I think it is like. I think about like what what is the tiny leverage point I have in this room or this conversation and so like the way I think about it sometimes in, you know, like when I have the opportunity to have a bunch of people in a room, I like, try to expand who that room sees as experts like like three more people in that were not on their list and position them as experts in this room and like just make that network a little bit bigger so that they're getting called the next time right and like, that's something I can do without upsetting people usually and so like little stuff like that and then I think the other pieces like when you hear like, you know, your neighbor, like for my dad, you know, saying things like what is like what's the one question I can ask him that's going to make him think a little bit harder. Next time maybe like have a slightly different view on things and so I think like take the tiny opportunities. And I don't know that didn't feel very cogent but that's my thoughts. Yeah, very interesting Kennedy, what do you think. Yeah, I completely agree with with what has been said before and I do like the idea of thinking about it in terms of expansion and helping people to understand how to build larger tables and and add one seat at a time and things like that rather than even what we really want to do is dismantle the table and build a new one but people don't always be ready for that so thinking about ways to sort of get people to think in terms of of expanding access rather than taking access from one to another are some of the things that come to mind but I really like the way that the room Alex put it as well. So this exchange. The room Alex between the two of you in the chat because what you're highlighting is something that we haven't talked about as much on this panel that was so important in terms of the networking that happens in a PhD program the fact that the people that you're learning now are going to be the people that you're calling on later to help you move mountains in various institutions. So I am, you know so grateful for that for that exchange. So, with that, we have reached time in our panel and I please join me in thanking these amazing amazing panelists Dr Kennedy Turner. This was Alex rash and Dr. LaRue Lewis McCoy, please, you know, unmute yourselves and clap or do a little emoji, just to let them know how appreciative we are of what they have offered us today because it is truly been enriching. And I am Celeste Watkins Hayes. It's been my pleasure to be your moderator for this afternoon. With that, I'm going to turn it over to Elizabeth, who has the next feature of our program. Thanks so much everyone. We're going to move into breakout rooms here in a minute. I'm going to automatically move you in there so just stay tuned. And then, again, as I mentioned the chat you can continue the conversation. Ask questions about the PhD program or not work with each other so just stay tuned and I'm going to split you up here.