 Welcome. My name is Paul Reeve. I am an associate professor of history at the University of Utah. I am a Mormon, apparently being a Mormon at the University of Utah. Somehow situates me somewhere between the Religion Department at BYU and the American Atheists. So I am the moderator tonight. It's my pleasure to welcome you and particularly the Atheists who are here for your convention. Welcome to Utah. Welcome to Salt Lake City. We have a few housekeeping items to take care of in advance and then we will begin our discussion. First off, this panel discussion is being recorded. The recording is sponsored by the Mormon Transhumanist Association, an international nonprofit organization that promotes radical flourishing in creation and compassion through technology and religion. The recording will be available on the Association's YouTube channel on Thursday, April 17th. More information about the Association is available at transfigurism.org. Let's see. There are a few items that we also need to take care of. Please silence all cell phones, electronic gadgets, whatever else you may have in your pockets so that we aren't interrupted through the discussion tonight. Let me just explain briefly then the format tonight. There will be an opportunity to ask questions. The way that the questions will happen is I'm going to ask you now to raise your hand if you're interested in writing a question. Dave Moscato is going to distribute a card and collect those cards. At some point then, during the night's discussion, I will transition from the questions that I have planned towards some potential audience questions. We will try to facilitate some questions from the audience. David Silverman was also interested before we began in kind of getting a sense of the crowd we have here tonight. He's pretty enthused by the atheist turnout. He asked me if those of you who are atheists would raise your hands. And those of you who are a theist and those of you who are a theist. So the Mormons are in the minority in Utah tonight. So let me briefly explain how this panel came about. Dave Moscato, who is distributing these cards, is a Public Relations Director of the American Atheists. And he came across J.B. Haas, Professor J.B. Haas's book recently published by Oxford University Press, The Mormon Image in the American Mind, 50 Years of Public Perception. And this is on sale in the lobby afterwards as well. And J.B. will be available to sign copies. And Dave sent an email to J.B. Floating the idea of a panel discussion that explored the public perception of Mormonism and of atheism. And asked J.B. if he would be interested in participating in this. J.B. is a member of the Faculty of the BYU School of Religion at Brigham Young University in Provo. And he then worked through channels to get permission. And that was granted. So for you atheists in the room, for us in Utah, this is evidence that miracles do happen. And I hate to destroy your convention before it even starts. But, you know, that's empirical evidence that short convention. The fact that we have a panel here tonight, but we're glad that the Religion Department at BYU approved this. And we're glad that this came about. And J.B. sent me an email and asked if I would facilitate or moderate this. And I didn't have to ask permission from anyone but my wife. And she said we didn't have anything going on tonight. So here we are. So I'm going to just explain the purpose of our discussion tonight. The purpose of the roundtable is to talk about how the public sees Mormons and how the public sees atheists, what types of mischaracterizations or stereotypes exist on both sides, what Mormons actually believe versus what people think they believe, what atheists actually believe versus what the public thinks they believe. And let me be clear, this is not a debate. It is a discussion with a goal of arriving at a greater sense of mutual understanding. It is an opportunity to break down stereotypes, not reinforce them. It is not about conversion or about who is right and who is wrong. It is about civil dialogue and at attempting to look at theism or atheism from someone else's perspective. A debate seeks victory and discussion seeks understanding. And we are seeking understanding tonight. And that's the purpose for our panel here. So let me just briefly then introduce, and I'm saying very briefly, I have just sort of sentence introductions here to give you an indication of who is on the panel. And then I'm going to begin by asking them to give a fuller introduction of themselves. And in particular, what I'm interested in is an introduction in terms of their relationship to either theism or atheism, sort of their doubt journey or their faith journey or whatever it may be, so that we have a sense of where they're coming from. And then I will begin with some questions for for the panel. So farthest to my right is David Silverman. He's the president of American Atheists. Next to David is Joanne Hanks. She is the author of It's Not About the Sex, My Ass. We can say that title at the U, but not at BYU. And Joanne, I'm assuming you didn't get the BYU bookstore to carry your book. No, not surprising. I didn't even get to the the subtitle before the applause. The subtitle is Confessions of an Ex-Mormon, Ex-Polygamist, Ex-Wife. And then we have Dr. Richard Holtapel. He's a professor of LDS Church History at Brigham Young University. And then we have Dr. J.B. Haas, who is a professor of LDS Church History at Brigham Young University and the author of The Mormon Image in the American Mind, 50 Years of Public Perception. So David Silverman, I'm going to begin with you and just ask you to give us just a short introduction. How would you explain yourself in terms of your atheism? So we have a perspective of where you're coming from tonight and we'll just go through the panel that way to begin with. Do you want me to talk about where I come from? From a religious point of view. Okay. So I'm an atheist. I'm the president of American Atheists, which means I am what's known as a firebrand atheist. I am the kind of atheist. Some people call us the new atheists, but there's nothing new about us. I follow in the footsteps of Madeline Murio Hare. Religion is bad. Religion is a poison. Religion does not deserve to live. Now, that does not mean religious people are bad. It means religious people are victims of a very bad thing that needs to be wiped off the face of the earth. This is what American Atheists is all about. It's blunt language. It's honesty. We do not worry about political correctness. However, we do worry about the perception that people have because a lot of people think that American Atheists is a mean organization, is a nonhumanistic organization, or it is an anti-religious people organization. None of this is true. It is also not true that we're trying to take religion away from people who want it. We are, however, trying to take away religious privilege from those who have it and make this country a fairer and equal nation. That's where we come from. Joanne Hanks? Well, I'm in between, figuratively and literally. I grew up in a strict Mormon family. I graduated from Brigham Young University. I worked for the LDS Church in the temple's department as an interior designer. I got married in the Salt Lake Temple to return missionary. And then five years and three children later, we found ourselves in Manti in a polygamous cult, and we lived there for seven years. So I'm going to tell you some of the crazy and bizarre experiences I had. One quick example for the women here. Imagine standing in your bedroom, getting ready for bed, and you hear your husband having sex with his other wife in the bedroom below. And you have to tell yourself this is God's will. So how would you handle that? Well, the way I handled it, which I thought was very mature, was I went to the middle of the room and I stomped on the floor as hard as I could. So I will tell you things that you will go home and tell your families, and they won't believe. But they are true because I lived them. I'm a professor at BYU and got a PhD from the University of California, Irvine. So as you know, one of the premier Marxist schools in the country, and Foucault and Marx were our theory models that we studied. And so I encountered intellectually atheism there at the university with professors. It was a challenging time because obviously they were raising questions about faith and my own particular faith. And I came away from UC Irvine with a deep sense that I'm grateful that I live in a democratic, pluralistic society in which we not only tolerate different points of view, but we want and encourage pluralism or participation from many points of view. And so I guess my faith journey is my own personal faith is remain strong, but also has become more inclusive to allow other voices and such civil dialogues as we're having here tonight. I think only make our Republic and our experience here more healthy and more engaging. Well, my name is JB Haas. Thanks to Dave Moscato and to all those who facilitated this and this beautiful place. We're so grateful to the Salt Lake City Library for hosting us. I grew up in a small town in northern Utah called Hooper, Utah. It's west of Ogden. It's on the shores of the Great Salt Lake. If you have any downtime in your conference, I encourage a road trip. You will never forget it. So the diversity in Hooper was between farmers who grew tomatoes and farmers who raised dairy cattle. So it was sort of a pretty homogeneous community. But I've appreciated since then, like Dr. Holstoffel said, I've appreciated the chance to live in different places around the country, to engage with different people. And I find that that has been a benefit for my faith to communicate with people from different viewpoints. And so I would say that that has been an enriching experience and has made my faith burn brighter, I think. Okay, thank you. So I'm going to start off with really a broad question that gets at the heart of what we envisioned this panel accomplishing tonight. So, JB, because your book got us into this mess, I'm going to start with you. And the question, and what I'm going to do is give JB a chance to answer this question and then give the atheist, either Joanne or David, or both, a chance to give us an assessment if they think this is a valid assessment of how others see Mormonism. So, JB, what's the greatest misperception that exists in the public mind about Mormonism? The greatest misperception that exists in the public mind about your point of view, the Mormon point of view? Great question to start. I'm going to, I hope I can say this in the right way. I'm going to say that it is that I don't think people realize how inclusive Mormonism is. Now, that may seem sort of strange to this audience, and you may have a knee-jerk reaction to that, but I, and I'm not talking so much about, you know, church structures, the church practices, but I'm talking about Mormon theology. I think one of the perceptions that Mormonism has is of being secretive, being exclusive. And I think what gets missed is just how expansive the salvation model is in Mormonism, maybe even a slightly different Christian paradigm. One of the things that I think, and understandably so, troubles a lot of people as they look at religion, is this idea of whatever the faith group is, is somehow condemning a large segment of humanity for not being part of that faith group. And that's where Mormonism might be unique, is this idea that of a universal chance at salvation because of a theology that looks at more than just birth to death, and that talks about even post-mortal chances to understand and accept saving power of Jesus Christ. And I think that's probably not well understood. It gets out of the level of theology, which is sometimes hard to put into sound bites, but I think that makes Mormonism more inclusive than would be guessed at first blush. Okay. David and Joanne, you have a chance to give us your assessment. Is this a valid assessment of how others may see more humanism or a response to JB's characterization here? Well, I think his characterization is true. I think his defense is flawed. I think that yes, the inclusiveness and the shunning and the outgroups of Mormonism is clearly what everybody thinks about. I think the fact that you defend that by saying, well, everybody can become a Mormon and everybody can get saved. That's not inclusiveness. Okay. Inclusiveness includes people who want nothing to do with you. Okay. And the idea that I would like to raise to you, and maybe you could address it, is well, there's two fold things I'd like to push to you. Number one is when American atheists came here, we tried to get billboards. None, none of the Utah based billboard companies would do business with us. They didn't care about the message. It wasn't about the message. They would not do business with us. The malls would not do business with us. This is not inclusiveness. That's the very definition of the outgroupness, of exclusiveness. And the other side of the same coin is that one of the things that we're doing at this convention is we're raising money for a charity that helps children who have been thrown out of their Mormon houses because they're atheists or gay. That's putrid. That's disgusting. It's barbaric. And it's the exact opposite of inclusiveness. So I'd like you to address how Mormonism is inclusive to people who are not Mormons, don't want anything to do with Mormonism, don't want anything to do with your religion. They want to live their lives. They want to be Jews. They want to be Catholics. They want to be atheists. Why are they not welcome to do business with some Mormons? Or I should say the perception is they are not welcome to do business with. They are not welcome to be friends with Mormons. And if they leave the Mormon fold, they're not supposed to even be involved with their own family anymore. That's what worries me. Well, you know, maybe I can respond to that. I think that's really excellent. I was kicked out of my house because I wanted to be a Mormon. I was 18 years of age. And how I'm from what? What were you raised as? Nothing. Atheists? No, no, no, no. I didn't say they were atheists. Because that like doesn't happen. Yeah, yeah. What I've learned is that that no matter what group it is, whether your parents are hardcore Democrat, you want to become a Republican or their hardcore Republican, there's always individuals who make choices. Now, in my Mormon faith, I would never just own a child for whatever reason they chose because that would be putrid and barbaric, right? Right. Right. But but I do recognize that in all communities, whether it be in Moscow, Idaho, or Moscow, Russia, there are people who make their own personal choices. But I don't think you can make a group responsible for individual choices. Because I don't know anything in my Mormon faith that tells me that if a child chooses not to be a Mormon, I must throw them out. I don't know anything in my faith that teaches that. Joanne, would you like to talk about that? Now, I'm not saying that there aren't more than it's just so widespread. It's just so widespread that we hear over and over again. I can't talk to my Mormon family anymore. I can't come out as an atheist because I'll lose my whole community. I can't come out as an atheist because I'll lose my job. This is this is the byline. This is the standard line that we get when we're dealing with people who are leading the Mormon faith. Let me just interject here. And then, Richard, I'll give you a chance to also respond here. I think one of the one of the points then is that, you know, maybe that's the only story you're hearing, right? You're not hearing the other stories. Joseph Smith articulates and position a faith claim for Mormonism. We claim the privilege of worshiping on Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience and allow all men and I would say women the same privilege to let them worship how, where or what they may, right? So let me just let me just interrupt you and ask a question. Are you three saying to me that there is nothing in Mormonism that that that produces shunning? There's nothing in Mormonism that endorses an exclusionary mentality? Is there nothing there? Is that completely wrong? Well, I mean, again, we're talking about groups. I'm talking about Mormon faith Mormonism. My experience at UC Irvine suggested that there were some professors when they find I graduated from BYU and that I was a person of faith shun me. Did that mean every atheist is a bad person? No, that particular person chose that. So I'm saying in my faith, there's nothing that I've been taught or that I teach that says that we should shut. Now, I'm not your experience is your experience. I mean, that that's legitimate. But I'm telling you my personal experience. And I know many people whose children have chosen other lifestyles and that they're part of the family. I've been on family reunions with them. I've been on family trips with them. And it seems to me they have very normal human family relationships. Does it mean that all Mormons do what they're told? Not all Mormons live to the ideal. But it's not a Mormon ideal to shut. Yeah. Do you have anything more? Well, I feel like, like I was a victim of a Mormon doctrine from the start. If you look at a polygamist community, you'll see that they are trying to live the doctrine that Joseph Smith set up. And so the church has has changed over the years greatly from what it was in the beginning. And and so for for example, Joseph Smith taught that the priesthood was for blessing as well as for cursing. So in our group in Manti, our leader decided that since the end of the world was coming, we need to we were the elect down there. And we were going to prepare for that. We sent out our 12 apostles on a mission across the United States. And as per Mormon doctrine, they cursed the the state capitals, any Mormon temples they came across. They went out in the trees put on their white robes. And and in the tour of prayer, ask God to seal up the government for destruction because it was so wicked. So I believe that because of my upbringing. Every little step led to nuttier nuttier beliefs. And and that's how a cult sucks you in. And so it's it's easy for me now to to see how I was fooled and how silly it all was. And and it was like dominoes falling. You know, once I first realized that that these things were so ridiculous, then pretty soon. You know, in my book, I say George Carlin was my savior. Because I had been thinking things after we left the cult. And then I saw him on TV. And the things he said were exactly what I was starting to think. And it made so much more sense than what I had been taught my whole life up to that point. Yeah, back to your point, though. See, I think this is another characteristic where your experience, I it's legitimate. It's your experience. But it's not my experience. It's not the larger Mormon experience. So with stories like this, the public perceives that that's my experience. It's simply not the case. I've never dressed up in white robes and cursed anybody. That's not my faith. My faith is to go do good to people to help people no matter what their faith is. We as you know, we pay a fast offering every month. We give the humanitarian services. We give our time freely. And we serve to all people. We don't ask them what's their faith. Are they faithful or not? We send money. We send goods to Muslim countries and to also to countries that are by and large non religious. So your experience is a minority experience within a subgroup of my faith. So you telling that story makes people think that that's what I believe. It's simply not the case. I have never done anything you've said, not once. Could I jump into you, Paul? One thing that I appreciate about Joanne is I think she's careful to distinguish between this sort of extremist fundamentalist type of polygamy and mainstream Mormonism. So I really appreciate that. I think that's that's one of the really common misconceptions that I think people like Joanne are helping to sort of correct because I think she's careful of that. And so I think that's a huge point. But a story comes to my mind and I think this captures well maybe the ethos of Mormonism. Jesus and two of his apostles were in a Samaritan village and the village rejected Jesus's message and sort of maybe a human this rising temper sort of mentality they said to him, Lord should we curse this village? And Jesus rebuked them and said you know not what minds you are. I come to save people, not to curse people. And I think that captures the way we feel as Mormons. So while I am always sad to hear about stories like this, one of our current apostles Russell Ballard from a general conference at a worldwide mean of Latter-day Saints, he spoke out explicitly and chastised any Mormon who has ever kept a child from playing with a friend who didn't share their beliefs or who has shunned a neighbor. I'm sorry we're not up to that standard but there is nothing in Mormonism that would condone the type of behavior you're talking about. So where does it come from? Human nature? No, it seems to be much more often. Okay, seems to be. Yeah. Seems to be much more related to Mormonism than Catholicism or Judaism or Christianity. The stories that I get and I get because I'm president of American atheists, I get all the stories and yeah I get hate you know this all religions hate outgroups that's what they do. But the shunning, I won't let my kids play with your kids, you can't stay here if you're not like me, overwhelmingly is Mormon. Where does that come from? It may also just be a sociological sort of feature of being a dominant group. I think this is maybe a reflection more of a majority group. I would guess that especially from you know from if you take a survey around the country, people in Utah or this sort of Mormon corridor would have a different experience with their Mormon neighbors probably than outside of Utah. I think that's important. Just a sociological reality about about the way dominant groups behave. So I don't think there's there is nothing in Mormonism that would condone this but in fact opposite. In fact let me tell you what my Utah history class reads the last day of class an article given at General Conference by an LDS Apostle just to deal with this very issue that you're talking about David. It's sort of inhabits sort of the elephant in their room right in Utah sort of this cultural divide. Are you or aren't you and then people make up their minds about you whether you are or you aren't Mormon right and there are all kinds of stereotypes from both sides and one of the things that I try to get at the last day of my Utah history class is that very cultural divide and I allow students to share these stories. What's it like? Mormons who are outside of Utah love to tell stories about being the only Mormon in their high school right but Mormons don't stop and think what it's like being the only Catholic or the only atheist in all Mormon high school right. What's it like and sometimes the the stories are barbaric. You're absolutely right and I think it comes with sort of this you know majority mentality right. The tyranny of the majority Alexis of Tocqueville called it and you sort of see that playing out where you have one group sort of dominating the culture. But one of the things I haven't read I have a read an article about called culture shock people coming to Utah and experiencing culture shock and feeling the sense of exclusion but I also assign a talk that was given by an LDS apostle called the doctrine of inclusion and he says explicitly there is no doctrine of exclusion in Mormonism and he castigates Mormons who don't allow their children to play with non-Mormon children. It's preached from the pulpit in general conference and yet you still sometimes have Mormons who actually do it right. So that's the disconnect that I think the panel is getting at and that's my experience in the classroom with students who have grown up in Utah and you're right some of these experiences are terrible. Absolutely. Say one more I'm sorry to keep harping on this this idea of inclusiveness but I'm just maybe a theological basis. In 1978 the the church's first presidency that's the the the highest council of church governance for Latter-day Saints issued a statement so an official statement highlighting celebrating the fact that God has inspired humans throughout human history Confucius was named by name, Muhammad named by name, you know the Play-Doh, socrates, the founding fathers and I think that's that is also something that maybe highlights and speaks to the inclusiveness of Mormonism is this idea that God is working through so many other faiths to to improve the condition of humanity and that all goodness is there's in no way do Mormons have a corner on goodness and so the celebrate officially celebrated God's inspiration in all of these other thinkers. Is there any sort of a penalty for breaking that rule? Because it seems to be like I said seems to be broken regularly. I mean is there is there anything that says okay well if you know don't do this if you do this bad things will happen. Anything like that. That's a really good question. Do you see how if there was then the other stereotype that we're dominating we don't let free thought see that by punishing somebody then the other idea that Mormons are closed and we all think the same way so it's kind of a catch-22. How do you have openness yet and not dictate an individual conscience? All religions do that though. All religions have a negative all religions have a hell you have a version of hell. Well I mean we obviously believe that if you're not a good person doesn't matter who you are if you're not a decent human being you're in trouble. That's what I mean and you define what decent is so if you're defining decent as being inclusive as being really inclusive of everybody and not shunning is that a factor is that considered a factor when you die and you have this judgment. Absolutely 100% interesting. Sure. Okay so I'm gonna then give the atheists a chance to either David or Joanne. David why don't we start with you. What is the greatest misreception that exists in the public mind about atheism? Oh there's lots of them. I would say the greatest misconception about atheism is that we're not nice people. I think that a lot of people think that morality comes from religion. Religion teaches that morality comes from religion and therefore if you don't have religion you don't have morality. So I think the greatest misconception of atheism is that we're not nice and or immoral which of course cannot be the case. It cannot be the case because all the data combats that. The population of people who are non-religious in this country depending on your polls goes somewhere between 15 and 30%. The population of atheists or non-religious people in federal prisons is 0.07% 0.07 of 1%. So the the amount of people the amount of atheists who are committing crimes is tiny compared to the amount of atheists out there. On the other hand if you look at it from a morality perspective from an outside perspective you can see what's happening. People change churches for a reason. They change churches because they don't agree with the church they're in. If they don't agree with the church they're in so they they say okay well this this church isn't doing something it's not striking my moral fancy. I'm going to go to this church over here because it does. Well that means morality is independent of religion and then what they do is they go to this church over here that says okay your morality is correct and God says so and then they say oh God gives me my morality right and that's that's it's kind of backwards but that's how the that's how it works. The reality is that every single human picks their own morality morality is relative and everybody picks it everybody chooses it the only difference between an atheist and a theist is that an atheist will internalize it and say this is my morality and a theist will say this is my morality because I get it from my religion. So from the other side is this a valid assessment of how perhaps more men see atheists or outsiders see atheists is this something that inhabits your perception of atheism? Well that's a good question this is maybe a good time to interject especially for the record that I do not speak officially for the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That's okay we're going to take it like you do anyway. I'm glad. We may find out about Shani, won't we? So you know I don't think so I especially about the part about kindness I wouldn't guess that's the common you know it hasn't been my experience this may be one of those difficult things again where it's based on anecdotal things I wouldn't I wouldn't say that about kindness I think there probably is sort of a uncertainty about the the moral basis you know the basis for moral judgments among atheists but I I don't think that the people maybe you know in my experience would paint atheists with the broad brush of saint unkind that they're unkind because in I would guess instead that they would feel like that that maybe in uncertainties probably a better way of saying it just an uncertainty about where they were they on what they based their moral judgments I think your part point about maybe a militancy is probably that in from my experience seems more valid they would think that atheists generally speaking are are a little more militant yeah I'm sure you I'm sure you do I'm sure you do but I would think I would think if we're talking fire brand yeah fervent I would think in terms of driving not my conceptions I would think that that's probably a word that I would think a lot of people associate with atheists I'd like to address this idea of militant we're talking about I think superficial things are we nice to each other do we misjudge each other I think in the world everybody is going to judge somebody for some reason if it's not religion it's going to be race if it's not race it's going to be income what I'd like to point out is that if we go beyond the superficial and I think a lot of the problems in the Mormon Church are based on the doctrine from the beginning from Joseph Smith Brigham Young that's some things that I feel I know a lot about from being in this this cult because we studied it inside and out and we tried to copy Joseph Smith's lifestyle and if you study that which most people don't they talk about the superficial even Mormons don't know their own history you get back for instance work for the dead now there's something that probably brings up a lot of misconceptions about Mormons is their work for the dead and I don't blame you I think it's it's bizarre I don't think that there are ghosts that come out of our body and float up somewhere and the death is not really death and that you can talk to people in Mantae we had prayer sessions we called them really they were seances we'd we'd call up we'd get in a small room pray we'd call up people from the other side of the veil who had died for instance one time we called up Abraham Lincoln and of course he showed up and we couldn't see him but Jim's wife Elaine was voice and she said you know we call Abraham Lincoln through the veil are you there and then she would say well yes I am thank you for inviting me and and I was there and he was so complimentary he was so grateful that we had called him and given him an opportunity to become a member of our church and an apologize for the things he did in history and and that he wasn't more helpful to the to the Mormons when he was alive so about misconceptions those kinds of realities those kinds of Mormon doctrine from the past that the current church doesn't want to talk about they don't want to talk about polygamy you know anybody who's a polygamist is excommunicated yes I am so the misconceptions come from the reality of the foundation of the church and they can't change that and that's why I became an atheist because I learned that the foundations were ridiculously crazy and and everything was just a story fantasy and and that's you know not what I believe anymore okay so I'm gonna give the BYU professor the chance to respond well I'll just I'll just say and boy I'm sorry to display we're in the point but again I think Joanne characterizes this really well I mean this is a very very fringe group of a couple of hundred I mean she describes it really well I mean in just the bizarreness you would have gotten the same reaction in a crowd the size of Latter-day Saints as you would have in this crowd they would have shaken their heads they would have laughed and this is this is unfortunate and really bizarre and so far from the the mainstream church Krister Stendahl who is the the Dean of the Harvard Divinity School and a Swedish cleric he saw completely different I mean and obviously he's a he's a theist he's a believer but but he used the phrase holy envy to talk about Latter-day Saint baptism for the dead he he saw this as as a beautiful expression of a desire to want to open the doors of salvation to to every person who'd ever lived and he said he felt holy envy that he wished that was part of his tradition because he thought it was motivated by the highest ideal and so that's a much different picture from that in the mainstream view can I can we talk a little bit about baptizing dead people because you got to put in a preposition in there it doesn't work so yeah well okay so I just want to make sure we are talking about Mormon doctrine when we are talking about baptizing dead people okay but let's let's also be clear that we're breaking down stereotypes right and so the way that you're characterizing this is reinforcing stereotypes instead of breaking them down how do I rephrase it how do I rephrase it so you sort of said that as a joke almost right so well I know I just want to make sure the rate baptizing dead people right so it conjures images right so some of the images that come up in people's minds are Mormons are digging up graves okay that's not where I'm going that's not where I'm going you know exactly how does this take place and sort of those are the kind of stereotypes that sometimes get associated with this ritual what's the word the process for what you do with dead people to save them in the afterlife so it's baptism for the dead proxy or the deads by proxy is how Mormons describe it okay baptism for the dead now the thing about dead people just like Abraham Lincoln they actually don't have the ability to talk okay I think I think we both agree with that but the relatives do and when when atheists have funerals when people die we have a funeral we have a morning session but it's for the living okay nothing's for the dead person the dead person is dead nothing can be done for the dead person but the memorials are for the living so I'm thinking all right I die and then somebody performs a baptism for me if I'm using the correct term and I won't know and I won't care because I'll be dead but everybody just about everybody in this room because they're all atheists but but certainly certainly my family would be appalled would be appalled that somebody would take my memory and say okay he's now a Mormon in the afterlife what so so my question is do you understand how awful that is for the survivors and at the same time would you accept it if let's say the Catholics were to baptize Brigham young as a Catholic after you bet you'd object oh no no I would I would accept that no problem you would accept that yeah sure okay but this is this is the difficulty this is difficulty I'm in I'm in the vein of Krister Stendall as a believer and as seen this is a beautiful thing and I can see why it's offensive to you please please don't misunderstand but but from a believer standpoint I think that's a beautiful sentiment that they think that they care enough about people that I care about that they want the best possible future for them so to me it's it's motivated by beautiful set beautiful sentiment but I can see I certainly can see why they clarify just a couple things first of all there is a policy that I can't if you died today I couldn't be baptized for you okay why because you just died and I'd have to have your family's permission to do so you'd have to have my family's permission yeah I'd have to have your family and Frank I'd have again you're not helping the situation because that's against church policy that was a rogue Mormon doing it but that was not the church's position okay church's position is you have to have family permission but see I see baptism of the dead get away from the kind of strange idea proxy baptism simply I'm having a party and I'm gonna turn 60 and I want to invite everybody to come so I'm gonna send out an invitation to everybody hopefully you wouldn't be offended getting an invitation for me but you have the choice to accept that invitation to come to my party so Mormons are something by everybody to come to this party in the world to come if you don't want to come that's your choice but don't be offended I've sent you an invitation yeah but you're saying that you were you're saying for dead people that they've accepted the invitation you are saying for the dead aren't you know no not at all not at all it's not a Mormon position we have this is simply an invitation anybody can choose to accept it or reject it okay so so the point is this the point is I'm inviting you don't be offended my invitation I'm gonna accept the fact if you choose not to come to my party and that's fine how many dead people do not choose to come when I turn 60 and we're at the party we'll find out how many people show now you're avoiding the question though I mean you're implying that there's an option for dead people to withdraw to say no but dead people can't communicate my impression is that you accept that you perform baptisms for all the dead people that you perform baptisms for and they and you say they all say yes no we did not say that okay good tell me more we don't know who accepted it you don't know who we have no idea until the party comes until you die yeah that's right so the point is this is that there are rogue Mormons who do things and and and doing those baptism is wrong that's wrong that's not our policy okay so we don't bat I won't baptize you when you die but the point is that our baptisms are really an invitation so we start off this discussion by you saying that everything you've heard about us is that we're exclusionary that we're we're we're we stay to ourselves that we shun people now you're arguing that because we invite everybody to join us we're somehow bad so we're either or we shun or we are not saying that it's an invitation what what I'm saying is that you're going off and assuming that people are accepting and accepting dead people and never okay those people are now we've never we've never assumed that good yeah so now you understand this a little bit yeah I'm trying so I'm asking that means I'm asking hard questions but I'm not accusing I'm asking yeah so we are inviting everybody to join the party we're not we're not focused on ourselves we're not exclusionary we're open to everybody well that's that's still exclusionary because you're inclusionary means you're open to non-mormons forever you know you don't try to change them that's inclusionary but what I'm saying for as far as the baptism for the dead you're not performing a baptism for a dead person and then assuming and moving forward that that person has accepted Mormonism and calling that person a Mormon retroactively no we don't and they don't they're not included our membership rosters so I've seen some newspaper reports will know there's no wonder so many Mormons they're doing all these baptism they're not counting any numbers members of our church good I'd like to make a point on that I worked in the church office building in the temples department as an interior designer and I had one experience where we bought a chandelier for the Denver temple we got it from Lalique crystal in France and I found out that it cost $200,000 just for a chandelier and the comment at the time was the best for the Lord and I agreed and the interior designers loved working there because they got to spend billions of dollars since then and since my experience in this polygamous group and since becoming an atheist is it's really upsetting to me to think of all the time and all the money that's wasted on things that aren't real this this conversation about did the person accept the baptism or not there is no person like he says my parents are temple workers or they were before they got too old and it would bother me that they they'd spend so much time doing something that I thought was absolutely fruitless there's so many things in the world that you can do to help people and I know Mormons give a lot to recovery after disasters and things they also put their name on the side of the box everybody knows you know who it's come from but the millions and billions of dollars spent on something meeting houses on every corner that aren't necessary think of what we could do in this world for poor people for single mothers with that kind of money in that kind of time I think it's important I think it's important to to maybe make this point that while you believe that that service they give in the temple doesn't have an effect because people don't survive death is your opinion that's fine but there's also some of the fact that Mormons live a temple life that can be very enriching and rewarding a temple can be a place where I can go and meditate about important things I've often felt compelled after temple worship to want to give more in fast offerings to want to do more service so in that sense I'm not so sure it's a waste of time at least from my experience of being there and just being quiet away from the world away from televisions away from radios and jet planes and I've walked away literally saying I need to do more so in that sense I'm not so sure you can quantify the effect of of that investment if it does help people to want to look out beyond themselves to help give more to help to be more involved I simply believe that at least in my own moment experience that I feel compelled and and I know that you're a little comment about we put a name on it I think almost anybody who's donating to anything it's whether to be the Red Cross or any type of outreach will often identify who it is that's given it to them but I do know that are in certain countries particularly Muslim countries in which we absolutely don't we don't put Bibles in we don't put Book of Mormons in we're giving it to them because we want to help them not to evangelize them and that's very good yeah thank you it's right it's the right thing to do so again while you think it's a waste of time for the dead that can be your opinion I think you might misunderstand that for some worms obviously not for yourself but for some Mormons the temple is a place to contemplate to think and actually is an enriching experience and has caused me to want to give more and when I look at I just did my taxes I give a fairly big whack to helping out the poor and it's important to do that and the temple has brought me to that and in many times in my life could temple do that without a $200,000 chandelier you know kind of coming back to a circle back around where we started I think we've one thing that we've done here and I really appreciate that we've had the time to talk about this is is deep seated beliefs are hard to capture in short quotes in media pieces and and that's what makes this valuable because what I hope happens in terms of misconceptions and misperceptions is to see to understand maybe a little better the Mormon worldview and for someone for whom this is just is absolutely real and they believe that this is real that that this this corresponds well with their worldview and is driven by compassion and and so while you may disagree with the worldview I hope that what happens tonight is there's a great understanding that okay this makes sense for someone who views the world this way this is driven by deep compassion about what they feel is the ultimate reality yeah but that's hard to put into sound I understand but you're avoiding the question I mean when we talk about the Mormon church and when we talk about the Catholic Church is the same way I'm not just picking on sure now there is this level of opulence there is this level of opulence beyond beyond ridiculousness when you have the kind of money that these organized mega churches the organized Mormon church the organized Catholic Church has and you spend again I'll go back to the example a couple hundred thousand dollars on a chandelier when that couple hundred thousand dollars could buy a halfway house for homeless people and then when you defend it saying well if I go to this it's part of my worldview and I can meditate easily I'm not I'm not here in the link here yeah I think it's a good point but you know it's like anybody you know we live in in the in advance Western society I've lived in non-western societies and the average home United States seems opulent to somebody in West Africa yes okay yet that person could be giving time and money now for the person in West Africa say yeah but look at this big house you live in according to our standards a below average home size so that's going to be a relative issue about funds from what I do know about them the the latter st. faith is that we give a significant amount of money and that if you compare us to almost any other group per capita we give a lot more to the poor so you know we could we could we could we could do something really fun and say let's show our income tax from this week yeah that would be a great idea what we did and I think you'd be surprised about how much we do give also I would love to see that I would love to know how much money the Mormon church actually gives to charity I would love to know that number this this is a this is a tough issue that they've wrestled with I mean we we have you know and and and we take our cues from from Jesus Christ and and so on the on the one hand he says you know don't do your alms to be seen of men and women and then on the other hand let your light so shine so I know the church is wrestled with this but I think because of conversations like this they actually have released this so if you go to Mormon dot org you can now see statistics on humanitarian relief and it's and I think total given now goods and services and and actual cash donations are well over a billion dollars yeah yeah it's about it's about percentage yeah it's about percentage I mean obviously there's some dissatisfaction here but I think that that is something you can see that is something you can but I but I know as an individual Mormon I can't talk about the church or the atheists I can talk simply talk about people I do know that I am compelled because my faith to reach out and to give to help and that's one of the major things that drives my life now I don't know because I don't compare with everybody else but I have a sense for my other family members that that on the average we're probably doing more service and more giving in our lives first of all that's great that's wonderful and especially the service and I really commend that I just want to ask you one quick question Richard and then I'm sure we have another question and I know you but when you say and this is quite an important question when you say we give and I'm talking about you specifically personally when you say you give do you give to Mormon the Mormon church Mormon charities or do you actually give to secular charities to very good question one of the reasons I do give to Mormon charity is that our monthly fast offering are humanitarian there are no administrative costs so when I give a dollar a dollar ends up with that person the church covers all the administrative costs so that's why I do donate very heavily once a month to our fast offering which is to feed the poor to take care of people the immediate needs and our humanitarian which goes around the whole world despite religious faith or non-faith it doesn't matter I like to give them because they're zero overhead because of the way that we work that's all covered but I also give to other organizations and the list is quite long because I feel compelled I'm interested in American leprosy foundation because I'm concerned about what's happening in Bombay I give to free the prisoners which is a political organization or arm of amnesty international because I believe that we need to help these people so it's not just the Mormons but I freely admit I like given to our church because there is zero overhead where even these other wonderful organizations have a have administrative costs and not all of my dollar gets to where it needs to go so yes I do give the Mormon but I also give to others okay so that was basically the first question so I'm going to turn to some audience questions here at least so the audience was like they get to participate and I just like to say I'm having a wonderful time I hope you guys are to amen thank you so this question do you feel that religion is here to stay and this seems more directed toward the atheist side of the equation and the vast majority of questions here are directed towards the BYU side of the equation here so I'm choosing this one first and then I'll choose one towards the BYU panelists here do you feel that religion is here to stay and if so is it more important to seek converts to atheism and prove religion wrong or to find a way to work with religion you want to talk about it you want me to do it all right no religion's gonna die the the the reason that atheism is exploding and growing and that all religions are shrinking is because of the knowledge that is provided through the internet the conversation that is happening the debate that is happening the internet is making people more skeptical and as long as the internet exists that's going to continue to happen to the point where religion it may not vanish from the world but it'll become a non-factor like it is in many countries in Western Europe now we do need to worry about religious people though and when I say worry about them I'm talking about from a humanitarian perspective religion is a poison of the mind people become it makes people do bad things it makes good people do bad things it makes smart people believe dumb things and it does it doesn't make them bad people it just makes them victims and so yes I believe that the conversation does have to happen about should we for lack of a better word proselytize atheism there's a humanitarian argument there and I'm not sure how far that goes but I think yeah you are helping a person when you're trying to convert them out of religion I certainly think that's true and it feels bad because it feels like religion but it's still true so I think the the two-part answer to that question is yes religion's going to go away and yes we should do everything we can to help it along the way well I'm not a prophet so I can't tell you what's going to happen but we do know from all studies that religion is actually having a resurgence maybe not in the West Western Europe Great Britain Canada United States New Zealand Australia but in Africa and in China religion's growing so at least for the foreseeable future the numbers are for increase religious belief not decrease now if you look at I say you're right but if you look at worldwide the people who are accepting religious belief are out distancing those who are rejecting it so again I'm not a prophet I don't know where it's going to end but right now the numbers are against you religion is growing Joanne it looks like you wanted to have a comment I was going to say as far as converting somebody in or out of religion in my experience you can talk to your blue in the face but until I went through what I went through I didn't understand how bad religion was and that's why I wrote my book is to get out to people somewhat if they can empathize somewhat with what I went through what with a lot of people who are dissatisfied with their religion they're feeling bullied when you go through those experiences that's when you really can make an intelligent decision about whether you believe or you don't believe so is the atheist position that all religious people are simply just not aware that religion is such a bad thing and there will be a point of enlightenment and atheism is the answer or can religious people actually be satisfied in religion okay so there is no one atheist position okay that's one misconception that I want to make sure I speak for American atheists which is an organization of atheists I do not speak for all atheists it's certainly my position that religious people need the help out of it can religious people be wonderful people and be part of the society of course they can can they be satisfied in their religious lives in fact live leave an entire life of religion and be satisfied as a religious person I think the answer behind that is undeniably true I think that I mean there are people who do that so there there is no way around that data our position is that they would be more satisfied if they were leaving a life of intellectual honesty so so bound up in that response is an implication that religious people are intellectually dishonest and so I'm going to let the BYU religion is intellectually dishonest not religious people religious people are victims of a brainwashing and I just want to make that and I just want to make that clear I'm not saying that that religious people are bad or evil or stupid I'm saying that they're victims that religion is the intellectually dishonest thing okay so so David I'm going to let the BYU group respond to that and a part of this panel's you know whole idea is to stare down tear down stereotypes and your comments in the solid tribune today suggested that Mormons it's a system of indoctrination and brainwashing and so we're going to let the BYU crowd respond to that because that could be seen as perpetuating stereotypes rather than stare at that. I said it was an example of it but yes it's not I mean I'm not excluding Mormonism as the only organization is the only religion that brain washes they all do right right you just an example you seem to suggest that Mormonism was particularly good at it I guess apparently they are yeah that's so we're gonna let the BYU crew respond to that I let me make a recommendation for a book that if you just have an hour or two and and if you want a delightful read just simply because it's it's as beautifully written as almost ending I've read and of course you may not agree with it but Terrell and Fiona Givens wrote a book recently called the God who weeps their Latter-day Saints philosophers in English professor at the University of Richmond and it's it's short 100 pages and I really appreciate their candor the way they approach it and they're opening their opening page they deal with the reality that that that we are presented as humans evidence on both sides of this faith question that you can find evidence for skepticism and you can find compelling evidence for belief in God and so what they pause it is that therefore faith is a choice and so I think any sort of any sort of comment or denigration of religiously minded people as being brainwashed denies what I think the Givens are getting at which is to me is truer to life is that all humans make a choice about what they want to believe even if that choice is disbelief and so that there's evidence good evidence on both sides but I I would I would respectfully disagree with anyone who says that a religious belief is a belief that is is devoid of evidence or is intellectually dishonest I think it's choosing to to take the evidence that points in that direction please tell me the evidence oh well it's it's the evidence that's almost transcendent and that's what makes it difficult now not now you're playing word games yeah what what is if you're if you're going to say no if you're going to say that I'm being that I'm saying the wrong thing when I say brainwashed I say indoctrinated you say no it's not indoctrinated it's a choice because there's evidence on both sides I say the only reason you say this evidence on your side is because you've been indoctrinated and I challenge you to give me the evidence I think I think maybe for you know for in the spirit of our panel I think though that that that is that discounts the evidence that that I have experienced in my life what is the evidence well it's it's just because it's difficult to put into words does not mean it's real I'm going to guess and and I'm going to guess that that all of us in this room believe things that are hard to believe based on sensory data I think love is one of those I think a sense of wonder at the at the universe that the order that they see I think sort of those moments when when you feel that you are part of something larger and so your personal experience your personal emotions are evidence for man in the sky you know that doesn't make sense now I would say this though I would say that I had experiences and and while you may discount them to me they are as real as anything where I know independent of myself that I have experienced these things and those become so compelling that the nothing can shake me from that nothing can shake you from it wait wait wait wait wait but this is this is not because let's let's get through this let's get through this no cheering nothing can shake you from it doesn't that sound like brainwashing to you oh no because because this is based on my own experience this is not because of things I learned from my parents this is not because of things that I that I was taught in a Sunday school class these are things that have happened to me personally now while you may not have experienced these or you may discount that what cannot be denied this is where I would say is that for me those are real and so to call that brainwashing discount something that has happened to me and that realm of personal experience it is sort of the province where I think that's the lines that we cannot cross into tell someone else what has happened to them it's not your experience that I'm discounting it's your interpretation of your experiences that I'm discounting when you look at a sunset and you feel all I'm not discounting that you felt all yeah I'm discounting that you said I feel all therefore God yeah okay that's not evidence and that's that's a link that's a link that's a leap that you're making because you were taught to do that in church or by your family and an atheist feel odd too you know I was I was giving I was talking earlier today that you know I feel I'm a very emotional person sometimes okay people who know me well know that I can get emotional not just angry emotional but I can get we be I can get emotional I have a deep love for my wife and my daughter and I look at a sunset and I'm awed by it but I don't take the leap you do with saying that's God and then this is and I think you have underscored that point the key is the verb and this is what I love about the givens position is that it is a choice and I have chosen to believe based on that evidence and you have chosen not to and I think that's a place where we can respectfully disagree I don't think when I was seven years old and I was being prepared for my baptism that I was making a choice so so Joanne when you move to Manti as an adult and you left mainstream me okay so you made a choice right and your book you say that in your book you say that you chose to allow your husband to marry someone else right and that was because of my indoctrination growing up well you know again you know your own experiences is your experience and I can't speak but I would say the same thing is for people who lived in the GDR who grew up in an atheist estate who were taught from when they were young that there was no God and and read anti-religious propaganda that they were being taught now as we came adults then as I started using their mind they could sort that out and that's why that many people in the GDR or the Soviet former Soviet Union have chosen faith now even though they were raised atheists were taught you could use the word indoctrinated brainwash whatever you want to put but as we grow older we have the tools in a Western society to learn to think logically and that's when we start making choices so you made a choice I make a choice and I just hope that we will live in a world in which you're allowed to make your choice and I'm allowed to make my choice and I think that's one of the amazing things about this current pluralism that we're experiencing in America that you have a choice to believe or disbelieve that I also have a choice to believe or disbelieve and not to demonize one another not to categorize not to say that all Mormons are this way I know one Mormon who was shunned therefore all Mormon shun or I know one atheist who was a leader of a regime in Cambodia that killed everybody therefore all atheists are meaning to kill everybody hopefully we're beyond that and that we can't take these soundbites and that we try to talk to one another and to understand one another and respect adult choices okay so I'm going to give one last question here I promised we have to be out of here by 9 o'clock whether you're an atheist or a theist so so the one last question is question number three am I understanding that's exactly right the last question is question number three and I promise to give people a chance to buy and get JB and and Joanne to sign their books and so those are available out in the lobby afterwards just sort of a survey of the questions that are coming in from the audience Richard and JB there seems to be a lot of concern about how the Mormon church teaches its history and so as church history professors at BYU do you feel the Mormon church correctly teaches its history to its members that's the most concise enunciation of this question some of them are going over you know two cards but they're interested in they're interested in the ways that the LDS church teaches its members its history there seems to be a suggestion that there are problems there I'll go first in them what you join in you know this is this is one where if you haven't tuned in recently I would encourage you to tune in recently I think this is this is an area where the LDS church institutionally is getting much much better and I think it does as much about professional tools as anything the church history department in the last decades so this is the institutional arm of the church that that helps in disseminating history and in doing historical research has has just really beefed up its staff hundreds now work in the church history department the church is producing and a Joseph Smith papers where they everything that Joseph Smith had his hand on that he dictated that he wrote that he collaborated on the dealt with his legal cases that is being published in book format on the internet and and if you haven't read recently some of the statements on the topics page of LDS doctor dog I think you'd be surprised at the candor and the openness of the church and so I would say this is this is something that that yes it is getting much better now I think you know where the questions that I'm gonna ask to just go ahead yeah as much as anything I think this this is is a reflection of a willingness and an understanding of of bringing professional historical tools to bear in analyzing documents and situations so that's why I said if you haven't tuned in recently I think you'll be pleasantly surprised and I see this getting better and better you know we lived in Jerusalem and my kids went to a Anglican school British school and they were really surprised when they read they had their chapter on World War two because it told from a British perspective instead of an US perspective and we started having really interesting discussions about that then we moved us to the south instead of talking about the Civil War we talked about the war of Northern aggression so communities tell their story in a certain way but like JB I would say what the what the church is doing institutionally today today is they're hiring people with PhDs who have been trained in specific areas and there's an openness this Joseph Smith papers project is unprecedented everything he's written every talk he gave every anything that he touched will be printed not edited the original manuscript will be published and a transcript and and then of course it'll be efforts to try to put it in a context of 19th century so we're we're at the right now we're living in a time of great openness and a great future we feel like our we need to embrace our past we need to understand our past and we must do it with compassion not to judge people in the 19th century based on 20th century worldviews so I think we're living in a great time in Mormon history okay that's good yeah that's good you know more openness is good so the question that everybody and I'm using my psychic powers now everybody has audience does the church teach about the Mormon massacre yes what do you see what do you teach about it does the church teach that Joseph Smith had a 14-year old wife what what do you teach about okay what do you teach about the bad stuff good good question so one of my colleagues Dick Bennett is here he teaches a LDS church history course dick what did you take where did you take your students this last semester Mount Meadows why did you take them there yeah to learn about the horror that happened there to explain how regularly decent people who love their children who love their wives who are building community could do something so awful so that's a religion professor at BYU BYU students on site reading the documents so I've that answers your question that does answer my question a BYU professor of history wrote an article called Joseph Smith's youngest plural wife it was a BYU professor who wrote that article giving telling the life story of Helen Marlowe don't heckle folks don't heckle let it let them answer go ahead no but I was gonna that was just the two examples you raised so that's that is so so the question here I think is legitimate what about Sunday school we are moving in a direction in which we are professionalizing our history and telling our story does that mean the the farmer who taught Sunday school who didn't go to college in his Sunday school class in a small town in Utah is still telling old stories certainly that would be the case but from a history from a institutional position the church is telling a story in a way it's never told before and it's open and quite honestly I'm very proud of what the church is doing in opening the archives telling the story allowing historians to look at it but I digress virtual go ahead if I might digress I'm hearing a general a recurring theme and that is kind of a no-true Scotsman theme that you have this Mormon church you have this this part and then you have the polygamists and then you have you know these these these people who are you know baptizing and Frank and when I hear things like when you hear things like that you you always say well they're not real Mormons they're not part of the church and it seems to me that there's a lot of people who call themselves Mormons that you wouldn't call your that we wouldn't call Mormons and what I'm wondering is if is when this is a big question is the preponderance of misconceptions about Mormonism due to people who call themselves Mormons but you don't that's a really good question I think this again brings us back to where we started this idea of misconceptions and so an easy answer is that's a big part of it one of the big battles that that I think to understand and get a sense of where the church of Jesus Christ Lordy saints are is is things like the raid at the FLDS ranch in Texas and and saying you know Mormon polygamists you know rated because that's that's an unfair characterization those people wouldn't self-identify as Mormons I think generally speaking Mormons typically that those that self-identified few to the study of of Mormons nationwide 99% of them who identified as Mormons use that term were members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints but I can see why it's difficult for those in the media and those who just sort of have kind of a superficial knowledge to not see some of these offshoot groups as mainstream Mormons so that that is a big a big part of the misconception that definitely is a very astute observation so what are you gonna do about that we're we're trying to tell our story and today we've come and accepted your invitation to help us tell that story yeah that's right so we're engaged yeah all right yeah sounds good yeah okay we are going to end our discussion I want to thank all of the panelists I want to thank the audience I want to once again welcome the atheists to Salt Lake City and to Utah and hope you enjoy your convention I do one more thing before I go wait yeah gotta do a photo okay everybody raise your hand if you're an atheist could we give Paul Reeve a round of applause he's been wonderful to Paul thank you very much there's a chance to meet JB and Joanne out in the four-year and by their books and we do have to be out of here by 9 and don't forget the American Atheist National Convention this weekend at the Hilton got one day tickets and full passes on sale