 Hello. Hey, how's it going? Good. How are you? Happy new year. Happy new year. Yeah, I'm, I'm still catching up. I was looking at our agenda and I'm like, I don't know what we're doing. Yeah, I don't have much. Just with my name. Yeah, I'm, I can't, I, I'm pretty far along with the framework, which is pretty cool. And as you know, Scott volunteered to help. So he's going to interview a few other people. And I think once we have that, it's already kind of massive, but it's good. I think we can interviews yet for. Oh, yeah. And I think for, let me see. Yeah, I think there is really good Intel. And Scott wanted to speak with someone from container D and Prometheus. So I think that's good. I just realized like the bigger projects. Have a lot more. So it's, it's, it's good, right? Like the smaller projects, they have bits and pieces here that are interesting, but they're also just trying to figure it out. So, but the big ones have already figured it out. We're just so useful to get their info. Oh yeah. So I'm just slowly signing in. Hey Karen. Yeah. And I think Scott is on PTO still. Do you know that Karen? I think like I was talking to him. He hasn't told me anything. So, I probably check to see. Yeah. Because I pinged him and he was going to me during his vacation. I was like, no, no, no, just take your vacation. Yeah. I don't know when he's going to come back, but I think like, yeah, once I wanted to do kind of the. I don't think he's, he's like not online as far as I can tell on teams. So he's probably out. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. He was going to take, he said he was going to take some vacation. And it's summer over there. So it's like the best time. And they have pretty much managed to. Deal with COVID really good. So I don't know how they do it. The Aussies, but. They're doing fantastic. So he's probably having fun. I was just hoping to get an idea of what people are actively working on. And if. Anyone can help or, you know, move support or collaborate. I just posted it in the agenda. We have like a. Yeah, content tracking issue of things we needed to make. No. There's the contribution ladder. I don't know. Can we mark that off yet? Or is that still, we're still iterating on that. So the last thing I remember was Paris is going to take it to some people to approve or something. And I don't know if that ever happened. As far as I can tell. Like I don't think anything's happened to the. To like the file. It's just kind of still sitting there. I don't know if like they would have done anything on GitHub or if it was more of just like approval during a meeting. But not. Yeah. I don't think anything's changed. Yeah. Okay. The framework, which should be somewhere in here, right? I don't think we've captured that. Let's add that out. Let me edit this issue. And we have. The contributor framework. Is that the right name for it? Contributor growth. Framework. What's your GitHub. Name. I'm just going to link you on this. It's. Oh. That was. Always on it. Yeah. Okay. Perfect. That shows up. And here I, I, I'm just wondering what is the, like, What's the, what's the scope of the framework? Cause I don't really know the flow. And I've seen that Karen was super white, like already in them, almost. Done with the sharing. So we have it now in a Google doc. And I want to do like the, what's it called the. Hand over to a Scott. So he can interview his people. Yep. And then. somehow. So how are we're not ready yet, but just so I understand what we have to do. Well, let's look at what Karen's PR was, because that's basically what we want people to do. You need the link. I can drop it in. Okay, yeah, yeah, because your PR kind of shows how to go through that process. Awesome. Oh, there's a poll request that added it, but what? There was like your poll request that showed how to, oh, yes, it wasn't a poll request. Okay, never mind then. Oh, yeah, I created a drafts folder and then. Yeah, okay. So, Cameron, what you would want to do is make something like that. If it's a template, we have like special comments. If it's a pure content like advisory thing, you can just write it and mark down and not worry about it. You can just what? You can just write, mark down and not have to worry about. We have like a special way of telling people like they may need to edit one of their files. But you should be able to submit it to that same spot like in that directory, the drafts directory right there. And that would give us a way to collaborate on it. And when we're ready to say, this is a recommendation, and everyone can look at it and there's no like caveats like, oh, don't look at it. Then we'll do a PR and we'll move it to a different directory. Okay, cool. One directory up and just be like, this is real content. This is happening. Of course, my mouse just died. I just like obsessively tap my trackpad. It'll work. Does that make sense though? How to do it? Your PR doesn't have to be perfect. People can iterate on it and add their own things. You could even put it right now in there and then invite Scott to make changes using his own pull request so that you don't have to be like the aggregator of everyone's comments and edits. Okay, cool. That makes probably sense. We like to like favor getting anything in the repo versus having something be a Google doc for a long time or a pull request that it feels like it's never perfect enough to merge rather than just merge it and put it in that draft stock. Okay, I'll do that tomorrow. Okay. What I've been working on is that website. Have you seen it? I don't know. I'm not sure if I saw the latest version I saw. I have reworked it over Christmas. Oh, I saw a link popping up, but I didn't. Yeah. Yeah, I think we've changed the name of it a couple times. I think Carter Netlify. There we go. Okay. So we changed the ideas that this would become contribute.cncf.io. I'm just waiting for people to say I can put it there. And so we have one, which is I want to be a contributor. And this is the existing content that is if you go to contribute.cncf.io, the contribution guides, the ecosystem list of the projects, but it's now in the website. So you're not reading. Oh, it's for a graduated project. Do you have, is it only graduated or I'm just wondering is I am hoping Linkerd is for incubated or? Yeah, so if I click on incubated here, on the right hand side, there's a nav for all the headers. And we'll be able to see some more projects. Cool. And some sandbox products. This isn't content that any of us wrote. This is just existing stuff. So if you want to change it, you can click edit this page. And it'll give you a chance to edit it. But because this isn't a live site yet, I don't recommend doing that because you'll be editing, I think my fork right now. Let me click on that. I think that's what would happen. Yeah, so you would go to Carolyn's fork, which isn't terribly useful, but you go to the main one. If you need to list a project. Can you send the link please? Yeah, sure. I like how it hides chat every time. We're like, that's the one button I want to see. Okay. So that's what that content is. And then if you go to the main, you don't want to be a maintainer. This is all of our content that's in the SIG contributor strategy repository. And like, for example, the contributor growth framework or the contribution ladder, when it's ready, you'll be able to find it on this when this is all up. So for example, Project Health is one of ours that actually is finished. So you'd be able to get things in here. I don't know how to find the right people to say that we can make this website live, but eventually we'll figure it out, I guess. That's cool. Did we have anything like that before now? Right? No, no, we don't have anything like this. Right now we just have these two separate repositories, one for SIG contributor strategy, and the other one, I don't know who runs it actually, but it's just that other repo. And so this kind of combines it and gives it way better formatting potential, I think. I assume Amy knows that this exists, right? Sorry? Does Amy know that this exists? Amy knows it exists. She's like, let me make it go live immediately. But I wasn't really sure who got to say that, because the domain we want to use is an existing domain, and it points somewhere, and people have already demonstrated that I can't just mess with it. Yeah, I wonder if I'm the right person to be voted on or something. Yeah, so I don't know if it's the TOC we need to ask, and I think we talked about the TOC talked about this this morning, I think. So maybe I should go and watch that recording. Or maybe it's your, I'm not sure who. Or do you think it happens at the board level? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, at the moment that, like I said, it just redirects to this. And what we need to make sure is that we don't redirect it to something that's broken. That's the most important thing. So if we switch it, it needs to, it needs to be done enough that we don't move backwards in terms of, you know, what's here. But wouldn't Amy know? Let's see if she knows what else needs to happen. So I'll follow up with her today and figure that out. Like I imagine if anything, it's just a matter of making sure it's clearly documented how to edit the site. Yeah, I wonder if it has to go through any like branding review or whatnot. You know, if they wanted that, maybe they should have paid someone to make the site. I mean, I did the same branding stuff that the Linux Foundation requires. Yeah. Is in this folder here and it links to our trademarks. If we need that to make it to UNCF cool, I think the UNCF is going to pay somebody because I don't have like extensive skills. I'm just really good at finding themes. This is the doxy theme from Google. And I'm like, this looks good enough. And I just went with it. But if we need to like really rebrand it, we should probably get a designer. Yeah, it looks cute and stuff. But if they want to have something that really kind of looks and feel like the UNCF, but they do have designers under stuff. So I don't know if that's something they want, you know, that it kind of reflects the brand. I mean, Amy hasn't said anything every time I show her the site. She's never been like, this needs to get spiffed up. But I'll, I don't know. We'll see. That's, I think that's the thing is no one really understands who owns the site and is to make decisions about it. Yeah. This is why I really didn't want to use the existing domain name. Wanted us to just make a new one. But you know, that's fine. We'll get it figured out eventually just move slower this way. I don't know. That's all I had. So it sounds like that's the work we have in progress is the contributor growth framework and the contribution ladder and the website. Is there like a link to the growth framework? I was just going to ask for that. It's like, oh, let me just put it. Hey, Charles. I just like you snuck in. I did. So I'm on dog duty this afternoon. So we're just chilling on the floor. Yeah. So that's why I'm off video. Fine. I feel like if you have a dog, you should always be on the floor. I just share the fun of cuteness and everything. Cat duty isn't as exciting. They just like fall asleep under a chair somewhere. That's pretty much all he does too. Okay. I just added the Google doggling. Perfect. My goodness. You even changed the default font. Wow. Oh, I have my it's like professional. I don't like the default font. Yeah. This is a good one. I'm going to have to remember Montserrat. I love that one. I have I have it like now it's my default. My Google Docs default font is that one. Yeah. This is great. Yeah. I don't know if that's the way of like I wanted to, you know, like give people mentioned who it was. So I don't know if this is the right way of doing it, but I just started. This is perfect. I mean, honestly, yeah, just PR this. Let's just get in there. This is really far along. Yeah. I mean, like there's so much stuff when people start talking, you know, it's like, it's all good. Some things are kind of interesting because people contradict themselves a little bit like different people say different things. So it's like, hmm, so I had like I flack that. And so we have to see how we address that. But I wanted it to be like it's really like kind of like this is the advice what people had, but I also wanted to have like a section. These are the tools, efficiency tools that people use, you know. So one of the things that we had, like, how do you make the what's it called? The, oh, God, where is it? I forgot the word that I mentioned. Anyways, like, how do you make the whole thing like really the whole flow like really easy and like eliminate steps. And some people have mentioned different tools that you can use. And so ideally, I would like to have like one section where it's like, these are the tools for this, for that, for that. So people can just go and find like a hub for different, you know, things that people have used, bots and so, I mean, and the idea, I think this is like the overarching thing. And I plugged in at some point, it's going to, if when it talks about the ladder, it has a link to the ladder, which is like a very specific thing, right? Also, at some points, like if you want to have like recruitment ideas, like actual, like how to do that, it links to Paris's recruitment book and things like that. So, but this is more really high level, right? So, and maybe there are like different things that we can create that kind of plugs into that. I don't know if it's too massive. I was just going to suggest, because it's eventually going to be on a website where you have the freedom to break it up into maybe like us, its own directory with multiple like web pages inside of it. You know, like feel free when you submit the PR. If you want to proactively just make like maybe a page for the tools, it was like one thing that kind of popped in my head. I mean, definitely feel free to do that. It doesn't need to be a single doc, because when it's on the website, we'll be able to Oh, no, yeah. And like that's the easiest when you have a navigation and you can click and just see what you want to see. So otherwise, yeah, it's, it's, it's, I think that's easier, right? Like you click on it and then you can see it. I mean, it makes it more user friendly than just, you know, being, having the whole thing in front of you and you're like, oh my God. It's overwhelming, but not in a bad way. But just, you know, people will feel a little more like I can handle reading through this. Yeah, I was kind of picturing having like a little bit like the docs where you kind of like click on things and then it opens the different sections. You're not, you don't have to necessarily see everything, you know, kind of. So I don't know, make it more, you know, bits by bit stuff. But I just started writing and putting stuff. So I don't know. So that's why I'm, but I think there's a lot of organization too much. I was simply saying that when you're put in your PR, if you, if you feel like you'd like to break it up. Yeah, we should. Yeah. Charles, we were just kind of going through what anyone had that was kind of ongoing work that they're willing to say that they're doing. I don't know if you've been on anything. I'm still, I'm working on them by working on them, thinking a lot about the contributor or the onboarding template. So I know what the basic framework looks like. And I myself need to put this into a PR, just like the first, like a draft PR, basically get that first round going through and then like start working on it piece by piece. But I actually got away from the computer more than I thought I would over the last couple of weeks. So yeah. So, but that's, that's the part that I'm working on. Okay, great. I'm just going to add that real quick. We have an issue where we're just tracking what content we want to make and who is actively working on it at the moment. So I'm going to put your name on the onboarding framework. Yeah. And this is, it's been an interesting day in terms of like contributor growth because in the governance working group, we talked a lot, as you know, about the contributor ladder. There was some in Paris talked about just the different categories of contributors. And so it turns out that we're updating our governance stocks today. There's a PR that came out like right after that, that I knew there was some work going on there, but I didn't realize that it was happening like today. So that is interesting. And then as part of that governance stock, there was a note in there about like, should we add a how to become a maintainer section, which ties in with what we're talking about here. So all this stuff is very timely for us right now. That's great. Can you give me your GitHub username just so I can tag you on it? Yeah, I'll type it in here. It's pretty easy, but there you go. Just see pretzer. Sometimes people misspell my last name. No, it's fine. I just sometimes people don't use the same names everywhere. So, you know. Yeah. So we've got a bunch of stuff in flight here. This is cool. Is there anything else people want to talk about? I just kind of wanted to get us on the same page as to what we're working on. Can I help with anything? I mean, I guess I might need to make like a few updates to the contributor ladder. But aside from that, I think that's more or less done. So, did you want to help on one of the existing ones that we're working on right now or did you want to grab another piece of content? So I assume the ones that don't have names are the ones that like haven't been started. Yeah. So like if we look at the issue, there's the reviewing.md who's won issue templates, like suggestions for our template repo of what you could put in the got the dot GitHub directory, basically. So is the reviewing one, would that be a template? Yeah. Yeah. It would be a template. Some projects smoosh it all together with the contributing guide or they call it something else. Like sometimes they recall, they call it like for the maintainers. Like everyone has a different name for it. But I think we named it after what Porter did it because I wrote this. And it's just guidelines for when you do a review. What do we expect out of reviewers? What should it look like? What's the process? Do you think that it should, do you think it should be separate or do you think it should be combined with the contributing one? Just in the sense that like if you're contributing, you might also want to know what the written process is going to look like on the other side. So I document it from both sides because they're different audiences. So like here's, this was the idea for we'd like to have something like this in the template repo. The reason why I didn't put it in the contributing guide for Porter is because people who come to the contributing guide are brand new contributors. And us extolling what a reviewer should be doing. Maybe they need to be checking extra things or running manual steps or how to not be a jerk. It kind of like makes that new contributor guide so big that it's overwhelming to have like, it become this catch all bucket for content. And at the same time, we kind of document it two different ways. We say if you're a new person, this is the process as far as you're concerned. And this is what you can do to move things along. If you need to ping someone, this is what you can expect. These are your rights basically from the contributor side. And then from the reviewer side, we put what are your responsibilities or like, you know, honestly like Porter, like we'll kick you out if you don't, if you're not a nice person, you know, character maintainer or not. You know, there's things like that in there that kind of lay all this out that, I think if a new contributor saw it, they'd be like, how much of this does it apply to me, et cetera? Okay. But I'm going to open to different structures. I'm going to share a link here that one of the people who does a majority of our reviews says that he loved everything that was in this code review. It's called how to make your code reviewer fall in love with you. So it's kind of the flipped flip side. Well, I guess not. It's from the contributor's perspective, but it also gives advice to reviewers as well. So he spoke really highly about it. I read through it and I mean, there's really some important points that resonate. The only reason I bring it up here is that maybe it will help shape some of the things we do. I'm not saying that we should like fully adopt this, but as we come up with templates, I think it might be helpful just for more ideas. Yeah. Yeah. I think that for the reviewing thing as well, this probably should have a companion advisory guide where we linked to stuff like this and we just talk about what we recommend in general that may not actually be in the template and maybe just be things that people think about when they're saying, how do we want to run reviews for our project? And then we can like, because I think I've seen something like this, not the same content, but the same like topic of just how do you do good reviews. And I think it's like five or six of them floating around that we could link to and be like, these are all great. They should give you some inspiration. Yeah. Is that helpful, Karen? Yeah. I mean, I'm kind of planning on just like approaching with like I did the contributor ladder and hoping up. Okay. My motto is iterate. We'll just get anything down and then more people can get ideas and expand on it. So, but no one's going to contribute if there's something there. They just will think that we don't do that content. So that's the first step is just getting it out there. Okay. And at some point, I would love you to have a look. So I don't know probably once we have the other info in there, but it's like if you want to have a look at the growth framework at some point, that would be like, yeah, the more people look at it. And for me, like I'm totally new to the open source part. Like, yeah. So any feedback would be highly appreciated. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Do you maybe want to link to it in the Slack channel and even larger group of people? Oh, you don't have to if you're not ready. But are you asking her to do this before she moves it to GitHub? Or do you want her to do it after? Yeah, after, right? Yeah, after. Yeah. I don't know if should we wait until because it is super long, but yeah, as I mentioned, Scott had already kind of gotten people from Link Container D and Prometheus to agree for an interview. So I'm wondering if we should get that info first and then see and probably then cut things that are not. So I don't know if it may, yeah, probably we should get that info in there first because people are not going to look at it twice. They're just going to look at it once, right? No, I was just saying like we can look at it and review the document that's there. And if you wanted more feedback than just us, you can link it there and get Josh and everyone else looking at it. I do like the idea of putting it in getting the PR in sooner and having people make comments in GitHub just for the posterity and you can tag people in GitHub as well, just as easily as you can in a Google doc. But either way, as long as we're getting eyes on it, that's the important thing. I don't want to burn the, and then after when we have the other information that people say like, oh, I looked at it already. So I don't know, but I don't know what the best process is. The more people can look at it and the more people can tweak and comment and the better. But I'm happy to do whatever you guys say is like if earlier is better. My experience is that people are more likely to leave a random little comment on the Google doc, you know? And they're less likely to do large edits in your existing pull requests. Does that make sense? Oh, okay. So you're saying sharing it before it's, but should we wait for a Scott's input first from his interviews or? You know, it's up to you. You're really, really far along. You have a ton there. If you like what you have there, I mean, I would encourage you just to get it out there and have people look at it. People are way more likely to look at follow-up PRs that are much smaller and targeted. Like, and here's the feedback we got from these two interviews. So we decided to update the doc in this way, because then it's a five-minute review instead of at the moment like it would maybe take an hour to read through. Yeah, we can color quote stuff that is new and say like, hey, here's the new stuff. Can you look at that? Okay. So it's easier the second one. That's what I'm saying in a pull request, we can put it out there. We can do a light review for major edits, like spelling stuff like whatever, like major problems, and then just get emerged. And then when Scott does his interview, he can do a second PR and more stuff. And then you don't have to call out what's new. It'll be obvious from the PR. Okay. But whatever you're comfortable with, and I was just saying that you'll get more people trying to change your text in a Google doc because it feels less... I don't know what farther along it's just kind of easier to massively change your text than a Google doc, I guess. In a PR, it's a little harder because you're like composing it. Composing in a text box. Okay. Let me think. And maybe, yeah, let's just brainstorm with Charles because Charles hasn't read the lightest version. So I just want to make sure it's not too long. Like, oh, this is far too long and it's not really useful before I put it out there. So I have some kind of feedback before it's... No, whatever you're comfortable with. I was just giving you an opportunity if you were ready to move it forward. Yeah, I definitely want feedback. That's for sure. Okay, but good. So does anyone have anything else? This is all I had, really. That's all I had was to tell you that everything is happening in my head and not on my computer. Oh, that's a question that I had. Do y'all typically put time, like milestones on things or timelines? So I can see... I say this as somebody who values... Like if I have an end date for something, I'm much more likely to like work on it. But at the same time, since we're... This is like, in addition to the work that we're already doing, I hate to put a date on something for other folks. So I think the solution there is probably me just putting my own timelines on myself. But occasionally, we do have dates. For example, if we need to get advice and recommendations to the TFC on, for example, graduation requirements, that's really more the governance working group though. I think they have a more of a fire lit under them to do that. Otherwise, this is all volunteer work so no one's getting me. Okay. Okay. Well, I will put it on my own calendar then. Yeah. Yeah. And if you ever want to collaborate with people, you can just say like, let's try to do a working session who's interested and get together for an hour, just randomly whenever. Yeah. I think what I'll do is I'll just dump what's in my head into a PR and then draw out a working group or working group with folks after that or working session. Yeah. Sounds good. This is a super chill working group. We don't pressure people. If someone wants to pressure, they're going to have to run the group instead of me. And then nobody will like them. I don't know, but it's not in me to push people to do free work faster. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That made sense as I was talking through it. So yeah, those were the only things that I had. So I continue to find this group useful. So it's great. Good. Good. I like that without pressure, we're getting stuff done, which is pretty cool. Yeah. And valuable stuff. I feel like all the things that are, that I've seen so far, the things that are in the pipeline, and it's all super valuable. So that's kind of exciting to get that all. And that website, which we all cannot wait to see live. So keep us up to date when you find out. Yeah. I know that maybe right after this meeting. If she doesn't know, she should know who, because like, yeah, that's the CNCF. Someone at the CNCF must be able to, you know, say. Yeah. Yeah. So that was exciting to see that one live. I'm sure you're, you can't wait. Well, it's just that I have forks right now of these content repositories. And I'd love to just have it be in the real repositories. So I don't have to maintain like merging and stuff like that. Because those people write new things. I have to keep on top of that to make the preview look right. All right. All right. Thanks everybody. Bye. Bye.