 Ovi januri 2021. I hope you had a very wonderful festive season. Welcome to this program. Time for politics. We are looking now into how things are, especially when we speak of the economy unknowing. The curfew has been extended to another like 30 days. So how things will be. Actually it's more of 60 days or 90. I don't know how you feel about that. You are coming from where the intense of pandemic was so grip on us. So I don't know how you feel about things. We are in January and you are becoming home very early. You can't look for more coins. So how does that make you feel? Send in your comments to all our social media platforms. Yua 254 channel, Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. My guest today, the very first Monday of the year 2021, is Angeln Bude. She is a secretary for general and international relations all afrika, students union and John Muati and economist. They will help us to put things into perspective today. Otherwise welcome to the program. Ladies and gentlemen, happy new year. Kari buni sana apaku eto. When I look back a number, I feel like I can use, I could allow to be use the words of Katoon kwa sababu 2021 mazesi litusa for kids. Ya ni ila design yuko wow. You remember there were times when COVID-19 came, there were times you couldn't sneeze kwa gariaman bili awatu. Actually, all of a sudden everyone became British. Kuna sneeze. I'm on a measure. Juki sneeze watu ata roka. So maybe now being your first time here, Angel, how was your 2021? 2020. Ah, 2020, yes, 2020. We had COVID-19 years. Ya, ya. Why you one of them? The fastest buy. Bili ata hi jinaya kumoka tulinven 2019, 2020. 2020, 2020. Laki ni... Wana waj ni ni tu konifuse? Niti konifuse. Ya, first of all Hilavi, thank you so much for hosting myself and John on the first show of the year. I feel the first fruits. When in the Bible, the first fruits was in Apilekwa and Beliamungu. Wow. I thank Tisana for hosting us. And 2020 was... I think we were too excited about it. And God decided to stop our regga. Laki ni, what can we say? Because the first three months of... for me I was in Akra, Mojali. I was running a campaign with the All Africa Students Union as the Secretary for Gender and International Relations. I was also... I was leading a campaign to award outstanding female students in Africa. And that's what I was busy doing in 2020 between December and March when I was gotten by the pandemic. And I was in another country so we went into a lockdown. It was quite interesting. And with time, as soon as they opened up I came back home because I had not missed home as I had at that time. I wanted to face this pandemic with my family, my friends and other fellow Kenyans. So it is true when they say people miss their home? No, you miss home. No matter where you go. And one day the pandemic... By the way, that flight, we came with a KQ flight, an emergency flight, a one-way flight. And the excitement that was in that flight was when we arrived in Matatu. We were in Numbani. We were in Numbani. It was COVID-19 but we were in Numbani because we were on our way too. So that's how it was in 2020. And then when you land, you fumigated for 114 days? Yes, to Liosuwa, Kaka, Hondani. At least by that time it had eased up Kidogo, like the tension has eased up a bit. So now you go home, isolate. We didn't get it at that time because it was so bad that when you get to the airport and quickly you go into... Anakpelka kafiyu ya lazima yu likuwe kumikua lifted at that time. So si kutukikuja at least now you are allowed to, if you have a negative test, you just go home and self-isolate at home. So that was better. But maybe to get from the human perspective when all things was being done to you, did you feel like you're kinda lesser because kuna at all kwa asema? Hey, wana 2-3 tikamu anyama, you're coming from abroad. You know kitambol kwa na shangilwe wana 2-3 kwa ya po sayi ya kuna wana pela koko kwa zamali wana fungiwa how did that make you feel as a person? It was quite crazy because even now living someone's country and now coming here you feel that okay, may you not sneeze, may you not look sick. You want to look to have a very big smile as you're going through the airport there and then. But it didn't feel so much. We just wanted to get home. Our destination was home. So we didn't care if they would wash us with the fumigators our entire bodies. So we were just excited about coming home because we knew how the situation was across the other sides. Wow. John, I'm sure in one way or the other you had an experience. What is one third thing that experience you went through in 2021 as far as COVID-19 is of course 2020 years. You don't feel like it? I mean the new year. 2020. So 2020, the COVID-19 pandemic period there must have been that experience you had like I would never want to say this in my life speaking of the 2020 COVID-19 protocols. Okay, the protocols, that's the government regulations. So for me, even if I get there let me just say something as far as my 2020 is concerned. So started really on a high note I was clearing school by university degree 18th of January. Did my last paper and I was ready to face the world as you know. There is a lot of excitement that comes along with clearing school. Maliza Masomo. Maliza Masomo and I am ready to face the world. At that time, Makuita was just a normal period. I mean everything was running smoothly and then I had been selected to join a program Young Africa Leadership initiative by the one that was started by Barack in 2014. It's called YALI. So we together with other young fellows from 14 different countries we were meeting in Kinyata University for a one month residential program. And so all along the program from February to March it was just business as usual and then when we were just finishing up the program we had our reports in China and UK and the US of people dying out of some flu some similar things. By the time we were commencing from the program we were not affected. But then now coming from the program you're not going back to school you have to get something to do. And there is a lot of energy that comes along with being a young person. So mimi nima Maliza YALI and I'm ready now looking for jobs applying right left and center going for interviews. And then now I am starting my life and then all of a sudden I get a job as a strategy and operations analyst in one of the leading aquaculture firms and then I'm told you are reporting in April. And then I get another call a few days to the reporting date. I'm told unfortunately because of the COVID-19 man you'll have to wait a little longer and fast forward later things become the way they were and then I get another call being told that I'll actually report in June. It was such a those news were so amazing to me because I couldn't imagine working in the middle of a pandemic. But one of the things that I would say that I have actually I never liked was the fact that so many people lost their jobs. And he realized that when I was getting into the labor force the workforce I was asking myself why is it that I have gotten an opportunity in the middle of a pandemic when others are actually losing their jobs and for me as a Kenyan because of the spirit of the Kenyan spirit the patriotism when we as Kenyans are thriving when you thrive I thrive as a Kenyan and when we come together cravings happen Exactly and I know it's all kind of test that have been in a different country the Kenyan spirit within even when you meet a brother from Kenya you are like man you don't care about their tribes you don't care about where they come from who they support and so for me it was a big big big shock for me and it was really it was not among the good news that I would say were thriving news for me yet into here that people have been retrenched people are losing their jobs and to make it worse the people who are actually dying are the breadwinners of these families and so I would say that one of the things that I would say my negative perspective for the COVID-19 would actually be the way things were the way the whole chaos it was chaotic remember none of us in this generation has ever faced a pandemic even not even a government I would say and so I mean is it going back to the fines and looking at how do we deal with the pandemic you know governments going back to those files and trying to see we are hoping they are taking notes exactly for future we are not anticipating any other pandemic in our generation but you see with human beings things are dynamic I saw another meme and not to paint them in a bad picture but earlier you were saying our 2021 depends on what those guys are eating so they should they should be careful when they are eating so the thing of people losing their jobs and also human behavior to change human behavior I think it's chaos even you see in schools when you trying to instill disciplines to children and kids who come from families where discipline is not something that is on the table it's really chaotic because you are trying to change human behavior and so when you tell human behavior that you need to stop shaking people's hand you need to keep social distances I mean we are used to meeting and hugging and embracing and doing all manner of things so they also the part of subjecting the human behavior to change and it's not just any kind of change it's instantaneous change like you just being told from now henceforth please don't do this wear a mask changes to human behavior I would think you stretch a person people become rebellious so for me it was not also a good thing being told all of a sudden you need to wear a mask you need to stop doing this especially when the president came and said from midnight we shall be cessation of movement in and out okay so what is cessation when we head of the cessation during the 2013 politics we had a cessation of assemblages so now the president comes and says there's a cessation of movement in and out then there's kafu and then other names that came in there's protocols lock down so what I think generally it was something new for almost every Kenyan speaking of the socializing I remember one of the bad bad experience I had with one of our labdona in the hospital that is kenyata so it came to a point kenyata na kwa word now get pass you're going to see your labdona kwa kwa kwa I'm going to see someone go home unless the doctors have called you you know that kind of like tumezoya kutembelian and then when it came to do with symptomatic and asymptomatic people were like so everyone has been sick and you want to treat them from home so that means everyone will get it I was speaking to someone from kibrand he was telling me you see a COVID-19 patient will be treated from home you're coming and you're like everyone you can't control people who come you can't control people who come to your home so we were like how then are we controlling COVID-19 if you're putting people at home then they are asymptomatic so I think so to speak 2020 was a year most of these generation will not forget especially to me kilamutu akonakawimbo fulani kama kama kama inje it's crazy but they have never changed ok I looked at some videos sometimes last week and I was like you have Covid, and you're not available We could not see a guy and no one would go I could not make a demonstration at the beginning So I think this would be a very different thing But now, I think to catalyze all this Or maybe have a Nangon all this Covid-19 and in 2020 particularly affected every single person Even a child, because you can't go to school And your parents can't afford to some extent, daily bread. So we're speaking about money. So if there's anything that COVID-19 affected most was our economy. That's why I want us not to delve in the economy, how we can add a shielding to what we have, when the government says it will support us, how will we achieve that and by the way, for how long. We are reverting to normal tax rates and then some people arguing we have kafu. How are we going to achieve that? ah Besides the how does that maybe directly direkt How does that maybe directly or even indirectly affect I mean, I think that's one of the interesting conversations and the honest conversations we need to be having when we talk about posts. We are actually in the process, we are still in the COVID. We are not post yet. We are not post yet. Post pandemic. We are actually in the middle of a pandemic. And perhaps things might even get worse. Who knows? Especially when the country is trying to easen up things, lockdowns, restrictions, traveling restrictions and COVID-19 government protocols. And so I think there needs to be an economic recovery plan for the country. And so, you know, in the society, there are clusters and categories of people within the society. And people who, I'm telling you, they are not affected by pandemics or other catastrophes, natural calamities. So people will always find their shabals and try to stand up again. So in this society, you look at the people who are most affected and you can actually feel it's actually the common monainchi. The common monainchi, we all know that makes up the largest percentage of who we are in Africa. Because not just looking at the country, but also from a continental perspective. So the question of economic recovery to me is something that is so dear because we want to ask ourselves, so we have been hit by this pandemic. Many people have lost their jobs. Many people have lost their loved ones. And so how do we rise up beyond that? And you see, when you look up about the issue of the government restrictions, this is a very good, very important because also we can't have an alien economy. People are dying in the pursuit of the well-being. And that's why you see health is actually a huge priority. The things that we check for granted and clearly you actually realize that you can actually sit in your house. Yes, you are hungry, but because of the need for health, you actually have to go that extra mile. And I think the issue of the kafiu, that is what you asked. For me, when I look at it from an economic perspective, you all know that we have actually been, since the era of Kibaki, we have been championing for a 24-hour economy. So when there are few working hours in the economy, that means that less money is circulating in the economy. And when less money is circulating in the economy, that means that people don't have so much at their disposal. So that means that if you could have stayed a few more hours in the evening, you could have actually made an extra shilling. And that extra shilling could actually have raised your well-being and your livelihood. So for me, when I look at it, I say that it will be... it actually affects the country. When you look at it cumulatively, the kafiu will affect the economy to a great extent. Because businesses will have to be shut down a few hours before the kafiu and that means that money is not circulating. And goods and services are not being purchased to the people who need them. Angel, we may agree, a healthy nation is a wealthy nation. How do you think the kafiu that has been extended, it has been there, yes, but it has been extended. Nani janwaji. Nani janwaji. Ocharana hila ingina rukor na zema e 60 days. E takua ya 180 days. Because January nakuaga 60 days. Takua sasa 180 days. But now looking at from the basic unit of the family, immediately restrictions were put in place. It meant children must not go to school. And so that means more mouths to feed for the family and our breadwinners. And then there is no money again looking at that. Then you are looking at the political tension in the country. And when I am looking back in terms of the education sector, we had really wanted to have laptops for every child in the country. And one thing I would like to say about Kenyans is that policy makers, they always have very good written down policies on paper. Things that can work because that one was an initiative in the manifesto in the previous campaign, which was an excellent idea that now rolling out the how became now the issue. But now you see we should have just kept on struggling with that because now that would have been something to cushion us at this time. And that is why we are told to make hay while the sun shines. And at that time the sun was shining. We had the time, we had the resources to do all that. But now because we didn't keep on pushing for that, now that is affecting us at this time because now when our children go to school they've lost out on a whole year entirely because you cannot count the percentage of kids that can access online platforms. Even university students are complaining that they are not able to proceed with their online classes because someone needs to go to a cyber cafe. And then the other thing with the university is that it admits the brightest students from across the country and they come from very humble backgrounds. People come from very humble backgrounds. So when they come to the university, they are coming now to change that. And when you send them back home and tell them okay now we are having online classes, online classes are streaming online class will cost you a lot of money. If I'm just buying data to stream one class I might spend up to 500 shillings or 1000 to get the GBs for just, if I'm not connected to a Wi-Fi connection. And that is not something students had at their disposal. So that is something that has hit the student community. And when we look at the student community that is where we look to power our engine for the country in the future. So if they are not empowered at this time, if they don't have those resources, the pathways for them to get to where they want to be. Because even when they get the hellblones they are the breadwinners of their families and when students are now not in their schools, and again now they can't come to schools. Now this is a restriction because when they come to school who is more vulnerable, maybe we are not the vulnerable ones. Our professors are the ones who are vulnerable. And the University of Nairobi has lost a huge deal of professors and not just the University of Nairobi but universities across the world because I mean they are the ones who are the most vulnerable in this pandemic. So that really brings us a lot into stake because now we need a solution for that. We cannot have an ailing economy as you said. We can't just have guys go to school. We won't have those professors at the end of time because what they have is a service and it is only them who can provide it and if they are not there to provide that then we are on the losing end. So again now that trickles down to another part of the economy because now when they are at home what are they supposed to do? They are supposed to get something to do. Kazim Tani is what the government rolled out from the Ministry of Urban Planning and Housing. Kazim Tani students also felt that it was not of their caliber to do Kazim Tani and others were saying this is quite a good initiative and all that. Actually I thought it was a good initiative to try and meet our small ends to meet our ends at that time and again looking at a family that needs to access a basic earning wage that was a good opportunity for them to do that but we need to maybe have more funds for it to get to reach to more Kenyans and then again one of the things that we also saw the President launching the other day was the one you just mentioned we were just talking about shortly the fund savings fund the savings for the scheme and that's the President tuning us as a country to become savers because if we need to have a better future what we have seen is that if you had saved something you could have quickly gone through the pandemic much easier than someone who had nothing in their account and so now he's encouraging us to save even if I'm having 50 shillings or 100 shillings or whatever I need to save a percentage of that and becoming a saver and an investor so when I speak to young people I tell them it doesn't matter how much you're earning at least save something for the future because now look at us today and encourage young people to become savers to become investors because investments companies are saying only about 100,000 Kenyans have investment accounts 100,000 Kenyans we are we are how many how many are we Kenyans 49 47 million 47 million because every year we do a million and since 2019 since 2019 census we are now on maybe 48 so yeah that's quite something that we should think about as Kenyans as well we need to breed ourselves to a saving culture and then now having this curfew that has come into place is not something that we are all seeing as a good thing but again it did show that that when bars are open at night there are more contractions because there are more social gatherings and even if not bars people are in homes people are that is the social time that the government is looking at the social time people are working from now up to 6pm after 6pm most Kenyans are now going into social joints when they go to social joints that is where they contract the disease that is how the policy makers are looking at it but the notion of the social point when they go to pubs now the money circulating and the money circulating and then again our economist here said we don't need to have an ailing economy and we are in the middle of a pandemic but now because we have seen what we can do and that we need to reduce our social interaction now it has settled in at least every Kenyan that our social interaction is putting us at a risk now that we are in a time where we also need to recover we need to now have that put in mind because we cannot now go hungry now we are having other priorities maybe it has gone down but we can open it up again and see how things go because again this is a dynamic changing situation we can always adjust it to when it best fits us exactly now John looking into economy and this particular fiscal year of 2021 the budget of 2020-2021 when the government said they will roll out an economic stimulus program that will catalyze economic activity provide livelihood Kenyans and enable business to recover from the adverse of COVID-19 how exactly will they do that the economic stimulus program brother call them packages because in essence what they are supposed to do as the name suggests is to stimulate the economy everything has been shambling and then what you need nika injection too nika injection nika injection kana kwa nikama so of course when you talk about it from a point of both literally and theoretically injection can help you come back and recover but as well when you look from a point of economics you find that an injection kinda brings up awakens the business reawakens the business when the government says that it has plans or rather there is a lot of shenanigans many things said that by the government is actually it's a vision but I don't know what happens and you can tell us the big four agenda looking at it it's I read the document and I'm like oh my god what happened such articulately written down document that is actually meant to make Kenya when you implement that document Kenya can become one of the leading global economies in the world it's such an amazing document but so the stimulus program is actually to help the businesses especially the micro and the small enterprises who actually have been hit hard by COVID-19 the government says of course it means that access to financial assistance finances play a very big role in businesses they will be well aware there is no way you could actually conduct a business no matter how beautiful you have your idea is you need some finances to actually help you to start your program if you have been doing business and what you get is losses by the end of it all you will have your working capital diminished to a level of your business what you do is actually close the business what you do is up you put padlocks you mean it has been a business unfortunately you have used all of your capital and so there is no way you could actually be in existence so the existence of the business requires you to have finances and if the money that you actually have in cannot sustain the business what do you do you either get somebody to in a kupiga jack or you chuck out from the business so to protect that the government foresees a situation where they come in business to rise through loans they can give loans loans being offered look at the ways of fund there is the youth fund and so many opportunities that the government has actually provided which also includes working and collaborating with the private sector talk about the private sector you mean include the financial system which includes the microfinances and the banking institutions that you have around I just remember someone trying to say if you want to begin a business they want you to confirm to us if it's true or it should be the way when you want to do a business don't use your own money get a loan for that is it advisable to do that starting a business you need a loan okay I would say there is nothing never run a business with your own money get a loan for that why should you start a business with a loan I think there is nothing that is actually cast on stone there is no universal principle as far as entrepreneurship business you see these people who tell you ten ways to become a billionaire I started my restaurant with a cup of rice make up we call them motivational speakers and then you are told by them my friend just go work nobody else will say I started my chicken business with one feather I started my media station with only one microphone so all those things are so subjective that's what is causing stress in Africa you look at somebody you want to become a Liko Dangote the richest man in Africa and you want to follow up his story you don't know where he started you don't know what was his competitive advantage so when you put yourself in someone else's shoe you will end up being depressed because situations and circumstances will never favour you to the point that that person who is giving out our story of course it's only a fool who learns through experience so I can't go walking like I don't care about what other people did but to point out on the issue of loans and businesses it's subjective you can choose to start your business with cash and I think it's unfair if you tell people to actually take loans to start businesses because there are lots of that's why you that is another area that can also cause depression because you start a business and then by the end of it all you come casting everywhere and you say that you are not even a businessman and because you need to do a lot of study if you want to start a business yakuza, suti, the way you are smart you know you don't need to own a fashion store you'll have to do some study who are you ma? what's your market? the competitive market price so you want to come in join the market but joining in such a way that you cause a shambl in the market people know that you actually exist in that market so there are lots of dynamics that comes along in starting a business so loans and businesses that's a tricky area and as young people I would actually encourage people to actually save to invest save, invest, not to take a loan to invest because so angel when the government rolls that stimulus point like I remember in last year I think it was July or somewhere there they eat stimulus point now do you think they are sustainable enough for a long term solution? Hilary, my friend here John will tell you that the worst times Kenya has been hit economically is in 1992 2007, 2008 and around 2000 again and when you look at the main reasons why we have been on an economic decline are because of politics or because of a drought season and these are the times where we see Kenyans don't want to spend money and when they are not spending money they are withholding it for the future because even now as much as we are saying money is not circulating in the economy there are people who have money or they keep it and they have been importing because over 23,000 people have been importing yes, that is something so if you are investing invest in the motor industry because that is what is booming at this time I think there is no really big shock in getting yourself a new car and I have seen a lot of KDBs or something flashy flashy number plates and I think at the end of the day that is a one percentage of the country that now is where money circulates most of the time and so to kiyongelelia mwananchi wa kawahida we are thinking of exactly how will that stimulus program support them in the long run it is good it is a solution that is quite feasible while on the other hand I would also want us to also look at our political environment at the moment and see exactly how we will investing at this time because we have had issues with our political transitions every time we are having President A to President B the country always goes through an economic turmoil and if you look at almost a year for almost a year we will lose it so now where are we politically 2022 is next year what will this stimulus program do to help Kenyans between now and 2022 because as a businessman and John will advise me wait for 2022 December to invest or even 2023 actually because between now we are having issues of Nairobi politics and then now after that we go into campaigns and Kenyans will love campaigning and then there is BBI as well and after BBI now we start having political candidates after political candidates we start having campaigns we start having elections there is an outcome of that election there is people who will accept people who will not accept that is something that a business person must put in place 3 years for us and we don't know how long this pandemic will take will take so we are at a very very sensitive moment as a country and the leadership of this country really really has a lot to determine on how we move forward because if we are not careful because the promoters of the building bridges initiative talk about they are looking at Kenya every time Kenya is having an election there is an issue so when they are talking about BBI they are saying that if we are united if we are inclusive then we will have a better economy and we will have prosperity and more economic opportunities that is what the promoters are talking about and now if we are also not sensitive we for leaders are not careful at this time we could go into a time where we are going back what we are trying to run away from we are just running into it and again a lot really depends on the leadership of this country to keep the political environment suitable and feasible because in 2019 Kenya was also ranked top 50 countries that are feasible for business Kenya is running very well in terms of ICT Kenya is number 3 behind South Africa and Nigeria in terms of economic stewardship and these are things that Kenya is as you said John we have talked about Kenya having that spirit of never ending spirit Kenyans don't they are not of the faint hearted they don't die every time we fall every time we sleep we don't fall we wake up we dust ourselves and we keep moving and that is the one thing that will save this country because that is the attitude that Kenyans have that politically speaking angel for the greater good in your own opinion should be wise enough if we wait knowing that now we can waste 3 years trying to catch up with times and putting our economy in a stable point do you think for the greater good we should reconsider having BBI campaigns as well as the general elections should we put them on stop until the pandemic is over for the greater good well when you say I know we will violate the constitution at some point yes but for the greater good for the greater good greater good is quite it's a vague statement to say for the greater good although I do not see why the country should stop running its daily activities if there are restrictions and there are things put in place for the country to keep moving because again we keep forgetting that politics is the driver of the nation because an investor A from a country B will come to invest in Kenya because someone is president in that country or because someone is leading an initiative in that country or because this initiative is being supported by maybe our former colonizers or maybe by the leading superpower in the world and these are things that are all key into having the country moving forward again when you go deep deep deep under you will look at when we have a presidential candidate we have one supported by the international community and then we have another one not supported by the international community and that really affects even the policies and the things that they will prioritize once they get into power so once they get into power there are things they need to deliver and if they are not delivering on those courses then now they are not doing their job and the politics of this country what determines what breakfast I have in the morning what dinner I have at the end of the day or even whether I have that dinner at the end of the day so we cannot put this country on a hold because of the pandemic as much as possible we must keep moving because our generation has been tasked with a pandemic what can we do about it it is a challenge but we can still come out of it better and stronger John when the government says it will support the macro and micro enterprise and saying that the the medium enterprise intervention including operationalization of the credit scheme to what magnitude do you think we will achieve this are considering most of the people feel at a loss yes like we said before and we will insist Kenya heavily depends on the micro and small enterprises community a big chunk of our enterprise was a big chunk of our investors are actually in that category and if you are to be honest a majority of the high end are investors I mean these are large scale investors people with millions of dollars in terms of the investment and whatever they get as turnovers but also the fact in terms of production you look at the production the large scale producers are foreigners to be honest a great percentage so when you talk about trying to lift the status or rather the economic status and the social status of the citizens of our country then you need to consider the micro and small enterprises and of course the medium enterprises these will actually in a way propel the economy and will bring a transformation in how the economy is in terms of its state and all that I was trying to look at the big four agenda and when you look at what the government talks about manufacturing and there is a part that is actually really interesting if you give it a closer look at it and that's the part of value addition value addition instead of how we have been doing in terms of what we produce we have dairy we have tea, coffee, koto we have lots of things that we produce as a country and then we are asking ourselves our farmers they are spending a lot in terms of before you get to get that milk there is a lot that has gone in that process but what is the farmer getting in return as a small enterprise they are getting minimal returns they are frustrated they are discouraged and you can't tell them to wake up tomorrow and go get they do that because in essence if they don't do that they can't find anything on the table so when I look at the micro and the small there is a part that needs to come out very clearly as a sitting government sitting government needs to really support the part getting to empower these people the value addition perspective which I am really emphasizing that even before we export even before we export our raw produce is there a way that we can add value to it from primary processing to secondary to tertiary if you get somebody who is actually doing 10 cows that's a small enterprise person is selling milk to a dairy and they are getting their milk in return and then that milk should not just be left there what can you do to that milk you can pasteurize it you can make it a UHT milk and out of that you end up getting products by products of milk cheese, ghee, yoghurt when you look at that chain and you look at what you fed into the system you fed raw milk and what you get in return is actually a chain that has actually been added value so that when you come to the output the output is that you are getting yoghurt you are getting cheese and all these are products of milk so this milk has been added value so that is actually what I would actually that they need to support our people and not just instead of just exporting our coffee and our tea to these developed countries and then they come back selling us a sachet of Nescafe at a very expensive prices so what can we do to what we have and add value to it before we get to export it alright now Angel he's spoken of big 4 agenda and it was a located 128.3 billion shillings what do you have to weigh into that okay well to add on to what he just spoke about we also now Kenya is a country economically what might also save us a bit is that there is a significant portion of our national cake which is the GDP that comes from the international community the diaspora so as much as they are also working out things on the other end I would really much love to see how much they have been able to bring in between 2021 and 2022 as compared to 2020 because that's also something that will affect our running of day to day business because they are quite as they call in our running economy and then the other thing is the tourism industry as you are now looking at the agricultural sector the tourism industry is also another significant aspect of the country and now that is where we are looking into having domestic tourism and all that to also increase our earnings and the GDP generally and I would also want to see that for 2021 and when you look at the big 4 agenda as we said our policy makers we have one of the best policy makers I think if we had an awarding contest Kenya would be at the top because most of the things we put down on paper are quite interesting and they showed our thoughts and our minds are of goodwill and that we aspire for something for this country even when I read the building bridges initiative and as a young woman who would like to also pursue leadership spaces I am encouraged by the thoughts that have been put there it means that the team that was seated there was thinking of having a more gender inclusive society that parliament has not been able to do over the years and so the big 4 agenda that stems into more of manufacturing and looking at health we had these measures these pillars put in place long even before this pandemic came because if increasing and having more locations to the health sector would make it better and would have had easier time at this time and when you are looking at the manufacturing sector Kenya is going into now having more manufacturing and now that is we are having tivets so if you are having vocational training when we need our plumbers our technicians and all that it is quite in order because in the manufacturing sector those are the people now that will get employed in that regard and they have been factored into and we spoke about having a series of either political tension in the past that brings down our economy or drought seasons that make us look bad so having food security has already been thought of that is one of the things that we have been having in the past and using our past to also foresee our future is something that these documents quite do very well and they talk about having things that will bring more inclusion because one thing that Kenya ails from it is always about us versus them and that really brings us at a intensive table and the big four agenda should still be taken key interest in even as much as we want to run building bridges initiative initiatives and all that it is still quite something even a next president should think about running with the program again because it doesn't hurt the country to grow right from the foundations we change the name to something else and add another pillar and make it their own it is still quite the foundation that we are building because every time we are having a transition and then we start new agendas, new pillars then now we will start losing direction ok if you are enough now John to some point there have been critics who have been like the big four agenda was ok but we have lost it you just touched on manufacturing where you were speaking about the value addition but there are other sectors that were affected especially by this pandemic and that could be the should be the health and of course the food security remember the first quarter of the year 2020 we had the locust invasion how do you think we are doing in terms of food security ensuring that our food basket is safe in as much there are politics of the day food security is actually I think number one or something because food in essence according to me should be a focus to any sitting government when a hungry nation is hungry nation according to me if people are hungry then then nothing can be done but to achieve food security there are certain areas that needs to be considered that includes issues of trying to look at the arabo land that you have over time we have been seeing that this arabo land which is limited is continually being subdivided kashaba ni kadogo lakini nenelea tuku nama fragmentation oko the population has grown as well the population has grown as you can know land is really something I don't know about this generation because that's a discussion for another day but according to me the generation that you are living in people don't even care about the land our uncles our forefathers they were even fighting for land and killing each other your father left a land your brothers and sisters are having tassels here and there but the arabo land issue because you see the government has put we are trying to come up with the legislation to actually prevent any further fragmentation and subdivisions of arabo land the issue of the land is important when it comes to issues of attaining food security because we want to ensure that yes the government wants to have reserves to feed the nation we have some staple foods in our country maize we have potatoes we have the kasaavas those food reserves are important but as well you need to also come into a point where you support these other people who are doing agriculture down there in the village because the moment they are able to have saplasses then they are able to feed me to the basket to the basket that is actually feeding the working nation so if they have saplasses then it comes to this other side and out of that food comes in plenty so the government comes up with such initiative to support production in the local areas and supporting the farmers and ensuring that food is accessible but the other thing is also access to fertilizers because you can't achieve food security if agriculture is not remember agriculture was a backbone I still hope it is it still is it depends on it so much remember when we were in Kremlin we have been asked what's the Kenya's economy's backbone what's the backbone of Kenya's economy and it's actually agriculture so agriculture and it's about farming there are many factors that come in which include farming foods of course we are still in that era we are using jambes but that should not actually be the case because we are talking about this land that we don't want it to subdivide it further because the more you subdivide it the more you will use these simple tools but when you have huge lands you can even use the machineries tractors and all the combined harvesters so fertilizers comes in handy so the government comes in handy to subsidize the cost of fertilizers but generally speaking we are still you know they want to achieve 100% that's not like by 2022 the agenda of the government is actually to achieve 100% increment or other coverage as far as food there is no space of saying that Kenyans are dying of hunger especially in the northeastern region now in the journey towards food security and it is almost the home stretch for the Jubilee government we don't know how things will be what do you think should be done now Angel towards having a sustainable food security in our country yes Hilary one of the things that we also struggle to think about is when we are having cabbages rotting in the farms and we are talking about potatoes rotting in the farm tomatoes not making it to the market and these are some of the things that now we need when we talk about road construction that we need to we also need to think more beyond not just food security as a primary but the secondaries that support food security and these are now the construction of roads that we have and also as we think of diversification because the other things that also support food security and even in the long run we may not necessarily just have to be food producers we can also import food in the future because countries if we are wealthy enough and we diversify enough into other sectors of our economy because our potential is not limited to just agriculture that will be able to support that aspect of our needs because the population is growing so we need to think about the box in terms of exactly which of our strengths are we growing in because when we see countries in the middle east they don't grow food they import their food foodstuffs and again what do they look at they are having they have more oil they can invest into tourism they are looking at diversification so for them food security is not an issue because they are relying on other countries which is also an okay strategy for a wealthy government and because we are looking into being a wealthy nation that is something that we need to look into diversifying our sectors and one of the things that Kenya is really doing well at is on information communication and technology because Kenya is really praised for having proper digital financial systems because even in my stay in Accra I had these small funny funny experiences of maybe I take an Uber trip and I I ask my driver can I pay mobile money and I think no I don't accept mobile money so we look at a country that still and that is not just one driver several drivers or I go to an ATM and an ATM is not working in another country I don't think that is something we've experienced here in this country we are advanced those are not issues we those are petitions anywhere convenience you can do money options for Kenyans are more diversified and if we can invest in becoming a leading digital financial hub for the continent that would be something we could look into because we have the structures we have the intention we have the goodwill in that Kenyans already value digital transactions because when they were rolling out in Pesa about 20 years ago people couldn't use in Pesa because they couldn't trust money that they see on their phone Kenyans have that blessing for digital transfers and that is something that we could expand on that would now help us getting to more fields other than manufacturing and tourism and fishing and all that now looking into our things that are coming up in the country that could serve as well would support the the big four agenda in the food security aspect of it I want us to address the young people here John the government is so determined to help the young people and the measures or the policies coming into place to help the young people they kind of feel like this is not us I think they are telling someone else because when we spoke of the 8 stimulus point and we spoke of the majority of the young people actually when you go to hospitals when these guys cause accidents you will find most of them are young people and then you realize they have been told you can have your own scheme again some do not only believe I can have my money I can still get money at the end of the day put it somewhere or you say in a party mama you know that kind of a thing they don't believe in themselves that much that they can have the money with someone else I want you to advise them you see and as far as one thing I would say I think it is a reality it is a reality that needs to hit in our lives the government creates an enabling environment for business the government creating jobs creating opportunities but it is upon the young people to actually stand up and grab these opportunities that are actually presented before them we are living in eras where we always ask what is the government doing for me what is the nation doing for me John F. Kennedy saying that do not ask what the government can do for you do not ask what the nation can do for you but rather ask what you can actually do for your nation I think it is time we really have those honest and frank conversations because you see if you choose to be hopeless to be desperate and you go and end up paying in drugs and the government will not be petty will not be what do you call it kukubembeleza trying to be you know the only child because you have become hopeless helpless and so you result to other things which includes drugs and crime it will not you will be short you will be arrested and you will spend your life in prison why because honestly speaking 7 million of us don't tell just you can show me how special you could be that you need the government to actually come to your door knocking to you and telling you we have many options before you we have this this this and this what can you choose my challenge to the young people is actually coming out of our comfort zones because these comfort zones we are the people who have created us and the society has become comfortable with us being in the comfort zones we are not going in an extra mile we are not taking up opportunities presented before us and I know people are negative our country is full of negativity we are talking to young people and you will hear there is so much hopelessness helplessness, negativity but there is no joke there is no effect there is no effect because young people they just see there is a lot of darkness before them to some part it could be true but I would want to challenge the young people because reality when the reality hits you then you become a realist you become real, you become real you face life with a lot of reality because no one will there is no miracle that is happening to you between now and the time that you will actually rest so what do you need to do you actually need to come out of your comfort zone and try to make ends meet and you look at the opportunities presented before you don't just be always complaining what are you doing what are you doing what is it that you can do is it just about money could you look at it from a perspective of impact there are people who are doing so much in our country but they don't even get paid they don't have money you see them in the television the young person did this did that but they are after creating an impact to their communities ever come to think of it what they are getting out of it if you follow them closely and ask them how much did you get out of it they will tell you nothing because their minds is not fixed on money what do I get is what I can do that's the it's actually attitude mindset transformation when you have a mindset transformation character is transformed behavior is transformed so you become a different person you view life with a different perspective and you stop the art of always complaining and grambling very unfortunate before we talk about devolution angel lord you have to tell the young people in regards to the attitude and the mindset okay what what better tool can I use than my own story because again I am a normal Kenyan like any other family I am from I am from a humble background and it is just my hard work in high school got me to the university I saw an opportunity in the leadership in the university I ran for office at the university advocating for student issues as an academic affair secretary I represented students on issues it was there is no money at this level and then again I grew into the vice president at the University of Nairobi deputizing Babu we know that came also with fighting for students advocating for students' rights to kachapo sana ukona polifi but we still and then from there I got into the all afrika students union that now serves for the african students and I am more into more passionate about national issues about Kenya and my country because I do not want to necessarily serve someone else where I want to serve my own people because it is all an investment for the country and that is what I would ask young people out there to chase their dream chase their passion it will find you exactly where you want to be and take your education seriously it is not a time where we want to talk about having half baked graduates, half baked degrees half that degree first then call it half baked because we are still in our country have it fast because again education transforms you holistically economically, politically but most importantly socially because you are able to build on your social capital it is about how you network because your network is your network that is why we keep talking about Kenya being a country of connections it is about the network I build the network I grow it is the same case in America if you want to get into Hollywood you become the best star you have your talent but it is about how you network and how you grow yourself from point A to point B so this is not a time to lose hope this is not a time when 20 years from now we will realize that okay the sun was shining today it is not so let us not get confused let us not look at the side shows let us focus on what really interest us the most and let us chase those dreams let us borrow that Kenyan spirit that we have found in this country as a younger generation of having an undying spirit of chasing exactly what you want and how you want it because I am impressed by the social media people who are making money out of their Instagram and Facebook accounts and if it is comedy they are putting it out there if it is music they are putting it out there it is more into that and I am glad that young people are also seeing this aspect and seeing an opportunity in growing their talents through our huge network of social media because now COVID-19 has now put us more into TV and social media and all that our focus now is not really more on the physical but on what have you grown in your online platforms so these are opportunities that are there for us and we need to grab them as soon as they are here and the other day I had the president at Boma when he was speaking to young people he was telling that this is not a time for handouts how many millions of Kenyans are there we cannot give handouts anymore and young people need to now know that we are not a country of handouts and we should not be a country of handouts which is something that now we should consult people like John on how we can save and invest to grow very true, I need not to add anything because I am hoping and I am trusting that the people are speaking to they have learned their lessons and you just mentioned of the social media and one thing I appreciate about our Kenyan people when they realize there is no social distancing anymore and most of the stand up comedians water and social media and they are doing amazing the lines they are using here are part of Tanecho it's someone who actually when she was beginning you couldn't tell she would get this point and when she puts her video on youtube half a million will watch in a single day and that is money imagine so there people are earning so actually the question is what you have and what are you doing about it let's talk about devolution we have been made by Kiyambu senator Matangi he is saying the county revenues the county government should find ways to earn or to get their revenue they call them exchequer things so I remember there is a time Kiyambu itself will go and tax kukusiji in your home but now speaking in terms of policy and how many years or eight years of this constitution and devolution what policies do you think need to be changed John to enable our county governments to utilize the money they have and be on the list of those counties that are rewarded for money display or the financial display I think that's a very good question before we ask ourselves how much more do we add or how do we get more they ask ourselves what are we doing with what we have at our disposal accountability as outlined in chapter 6 when it talks about integrity and issues of how do you manage public resources and according to me first of all whatever has been given out has not been utilized the way it is supposed to be we've had scandals right from the start of how much 100,000 because it has been a lot of hula balus and any until you become frustrated yet you love you love your country so much but then sometimes you actually even feel ashamed to be actually quetanishona the country because these are things which have been done by people who are sober and you ask yourselves what's the disconnect what they promised the people during the election and what is happening on the ground so feel to a greater extent we need to come to the point where we are asking ourselves you have been given 1 billion initialings to do this for your county what have you done with the money and is it of benefit because they always account for it because they account for it accountability and also we also want to see impact in the processes not just doing something because you feel it needs to be done it's like what we were being told in school about community participation like you don't just go to a community and you say guys I want to build to build new toilets I see you have been going to the forest to the bush to actually openly defecate there I want to come and so these mzungu cams and the bills flash in toilets let's say masailand for instance and so he's happy he's happy he's very happy excuse me all of a sudden you actually realize people are still going to the bushes to actually defecate and to help themselves out and you ask yourself what's the problem because you actually never get got to know what was the problem in the first place first thing that needs to be done as far as any project is concerned whether it's being done by the national Sela directions kan Например, k�ini waghornsan stor oso ko mga H遊戲 k tsunami랏a segisi Werutua niki w solo mga Yaduja kwenoughta Umi Siniljivu Afuka butata Yakan Eka Uhorn Man엑 W более M^^ Wun Wain Mitsu Yon But if that is not been achieved, why is it that some counties are lagging behind? Like you can go to some counties and you can't find a level 4 hospital, you know? Yet they get money for this. You know, having money being spent without accountability and even if it's being spent, it's being overpriced. Like you hear something was bought from a local, not even imported. It was made by locals and the money that it costed, it's actually doesn't make sense. So if you really love our country, we need to have such conversations and even prosecuting those that are found in those, because chapter 6 is clear about issues of mismanagement and misuse of public funds. All right, now Angelu, we may agree, corruption has been a great impediments for the development of this country and in our counties, most of the governors have been put on spot. We have seen them that have been impeached because of corruption. But there are other policies that limit county development, maybe new interactions and in your political space. What have you realized? And as a leader with leadership skills and the knowledge in you, it should be changed now, maybe say constitution or maybe the policies that are in the counties that make counties not develop yet they get money. Well Hilary, one of the things I would like to do is first of all appreciate the evolution because in the spirit of the 2010 constitution it was to have a government that is more reachable by the people that people feel that they are actually being represented. And that is something that I want to appreciate about devolution. I would not say we made a mistake by saying yes to devolution. And we can always have this dynamic environment and ten years of a new constitution we are already seeing some of the weaknesses and the faults that we had while drafting the constitution and some of the things that have changed after the constitution have changed since 2010. And again, one thing that we also devolved was corruption that was now taken all the way, now it was now our time to eat slogan and that also went to the counties sadly and counties right now are quite the opportunity and also one of the things that I've also seen with the building bridges initiative is that they want to allocate more funds to counties and even have given more 5% allocation to MCAs. So now even becoming a member of county assembly it becomes more prestigious and closer to that of an MP than it was before that what we felt was quite indifferent. But at the same time what I would advise county government is for them to also think of regional blocks and thinking of economic blocks just the same way we have with African blocks South African blocks, East African blocks Commonwealth blocks that come together to increase on their welfare because they have their own tailored needs as per the regions or as per how they relate socially and politically that's something that county governments should look into because let's say if a region like Mount Kenya decided to have an economic block that caters for Mount Kenya counties that would be something that would help the people of Mount Kenya if Northland counties counties decided to have economic blocks that would really go into well into play for what they need to have because again it also comes with the power of numbers and the money they earn once it is consolidated towards a certain region then that would help because if now we are talking about a county not having a level 4 hospital but at least in that region they are countless level 4 hospitals that is something that like 5 to 8 counties can come together and do it very easily and very quickly so these are not some of the challenges that are not beyond us they are things we can work out as well and I think now Kenyans also need to be vigilant now more than ever about the kind of leaders they elect because the leaders are going to cost them in a huge way because they know when they elect leaders we have never been caught on surprise that we elected this guy and this is what they have done we should never be surprised because every time we elect someone they have a track record they have a history and we keep on ignoring that area of time and it comes to kick us back again and what happened maybe we should blame the person who said better the devil you know than any individual that person was misleading us totally because again the leaders that we've had we've said no to leaders that we know can deliver and we've said yes to leaders we know we think can deliver while we already know that they cannot deliver so I don't know why we would expect a bicycle to work like a Mercedes Benz and we already know it is a bicycle so those are some of the things that as Kenyans we need to also think back on because we are wasting too much time on impeachment processes we are wasting too much time on political processes that don't make sense now like when you look at for example a county like Nairobi if an Nairobi governor does not deliver the president's legacy is in question because what the president did was to save his legacy by having someone to run Nairobi but again what was not done for Nairobi could have been done much way much better way much more like if we had Makwini governor for Nairobi I would not have had a problem and you know the face of the country is Nairobi how is Nairobi being run how Nairobi is being run is how Mombasa County will be inspired to run how Kisumu na Kuhu and all the other counties will be inspired to run so it really says a lot because a country like Masabit now cannot be run better than Nairobi I mean we need to step up on our game and we need to be more serious and take our leadership seriously because countries that have had better leaders have faced this pandemic better because their leaders cared about them and we should really think about it when Peter Kenneth was being when we were having the gubernatorial debate he asked a question kiki kwa na mtoto utapatia nani mama kama kwa na mtoto utapatia utapatia sonkom toto ako muache wende utapatia miguna miguna utapatia kideru amoutani patia so think of your vote as a child that you're giving to a leader how far will they take them how far will they take your child will they take your child how think of it that way it is that serious so we need to think of it that seriously interestingly you've brought a body in Nairobi politics and you're looking into the bi-election next month and there's an issue going on with the ECC and it's all about integrity and leadership and they're saying if you have been to question and I have seen it has brought some uproar with the current senators and politicians in the house who want to be governors at some point because now the ECC says that and most of our leaders in question in one you or the other where does that put Nairobi because all the candidates who have publicly said they will be into office kuna maswali maali so does it mean we'll just vote for them blindly or we just wait for what will happen John so it's clear if they say so if the ethics and anti-corruption commission commissions actually act independently according to my knowledge so if they deem if you are deemed and fit to run for public office because of an issue I strongly believe let's say if you are impeached why should you run for another position it means that whatever you did was that you mismanaged public funds and public resources so for me I would say it and I will emphasize it that I support what they say that our leaders I mean I was writing an article a journal paper and I was actually saying that we don't have leaders in Africa what do we have then we have greedy looters and thieves who turned out to be leaders because somebody wants to propagate and feed their greed they see the only way they could do so is by running for public office we don't have leaders in Africa we don't have leaders in Kenya many of our leaders they are celebrity likes they are people who because they are famous they call the shots so the only way they see is running a public office and I feel it's time we be intentional and be very very much ready to pay the cost of good leadership in Africa that calls for sobaness even among the people who are voting who are the citizens not always depending on handouts and peanuts from our politicians alright maybe as we come to a close Angel there's so many people who have lined up for Nairobi politics who want to be governors and they were there actually a good number of them were there and due to party politics and something else they couldn't make it and even the campaigns and the voting itself they missed out what do you think would be the outcome and will Nairobi get a good deal this time round um well good deal depends a lot on Nairobians but again two things may happen number one we will have a very highly contested gubernatoria election or political advisers and politicians will push with court orders not to have the election entirely and just have the country run the way it's running but again we can also not ignore the both sides of the coin and once they are out there and they want to run for office I think what I always say is that everyone is entitled to the throne so as long as you can take it so I believe that if ESC clears you for elections and Kenyans vote for you we are a democratic country then we go by democratic principles and the wishes of Kenyans should be respected are we democratic really knowing there is some envelop that goes round IBC will clear you, ESC will not ESC will clear you, IBC will not so where do you stand really well well yeah those are political games that makes politics dirty but again if you are a candidate and you are aspiring those are things that you should expect to face in the long run because Nairobi will now have more interest than ever because you saw the politics of Msamweni and of Katoonto and now it is Nairobi so Nairobi is quite now on a high because whatever needs to happen we should now get ready to see the political game changing in quite the speed because now if the state is interested opposition is interested and this is the time that a lot is on hold depending on the outcome that we get from Nairobi politics and I would really want to see exactly how many aspirans actually go up to the end to the ballot and what exactly Nairobians will choose because there are a lot of mixed feelings in Nairobi and Kenyans they have already seen Nairobians have already seen what a bad decision can do to them and let's see how it plays out before I let you join do you think the Nairobi politics should be used as the an example teaser for BBI like it did in Msamweni oh my first of all I would like Kenyans to think of the BBI as document that the spirit was to literally bring the country together because when I sat at the prayer breakfast in 2017 2018 much later after the election was how Kenyans when Uhuru and Rayla shook hands Kenyans in the background were literally crying about seeing a handshake between two of the most best politicians in the country against each other and now they are seeing them shaking hands was quite an emotional thing for most of Kenyans because in 2007 political players are the ones who made women lose their children so when there were some shujus and and they started kneeling down and praying for me as a young person I can say these are just politicians what are they doing but behind the scenes it means a lot to the people and when it means so much to the people because they have lost property that is the spirit that was initiated to put the document to where it is right now and we keep saying that Kenyans Kenyan policy makers do a lot in putting down items on paper just like the vision 2030 just like the big four agenda now we have the building bridges initiative when you read the document it is a very nice document and one of the things that are being talked about there they are equally perfect now that it has a political blessing now politics come into play and that is expected for in every other aspect that we have so BBI is something that we should not look into as just a political game changer but it has look at it as a Kenyan as a Kenyan what is in it for me what is in it for my community what is in it for my children in the future let us think more broadly not just let's not be very myopic about our politics Alright John very fast we are out of time Yes absolutely and just now that we've talked about the document we can arrange us to think about what is of priority to us as a country I know we there is a lot of look at the spirit of the BBI document there is a lot that is being talked about as far as the stability of the country is concerned I love that but also they are also the aspect of what is it that is getting in there and what is it that it can do other than what it is being what they are planning to do with it and there is a lot of resources that are going to be spent and has been has been spent already but look at the state of our country look at what our senator yesterday in his letter to the president he's actually my senator and he's telling the president that the BBI is unpopular in central Kenya because of a number of reasons and one of the reasons that he was saying is that because people feel this document and they feel like there are needs which needs to be addressed and these needs have led to economic deprivation of the citizens so I feel there are priorities which we need to face and these are realities over time as any sitting government and that is bringing food on the table access to quality health access to food and access to quality education alright fair enough thank you so much ladies apparently you are out of time it has been a long discussion but I appreciate you coming and speaking to our viewers in the back home thank you so much for keeping us company I trust you have learnt something they have been my guest John Muati an economist and Angel Buzia you are secretary for gender and international relations relations thank you so much for coming we appreciate your presence thank you good morning and happy new year