 All right, well good evening I'm gonna call the Tuesday, May 16th Burlington Development Review Board meeting to order My name is a Jill arosa on the chair of the board And we have on our agenda tonight only two items 71 73 Peru Street and 300 Flynn Avenue Which is sketch plan so I suspect our meeting will be relatively quick and I don't see any other communications or any changes to the agenda, so we'll jump right into it is the Applicant and appellant here for 71 73 Peru Street Would you want to come up take a seat? We've gone hybrid are we waiting for people online we haven't gone hybrid yet, and that'll be your next meeting. Yeah, right That's right in June Well for the sketch plan you raise your right hand and I'm gonna give you the oath do you swear that the testimony you're about to give in the matter under consideration is true Incorrect, and the pain Perjury Okay, now just for the record identify yourself Damon Lane and you're the owner. Yep, okay This is an appeal of an administrative denial and our procedure in those cases is to ask the city To articulate the basis for the denial first so Who on the city? It would be me that's you Walk us through sure so So Damon lives and owns historic property. It's on the state historic register state of Vermont It He's looking to replace existing wooden windows with vinyl windows There's a few items that I pointed out in the staff report Something that's a little bit unique here I suppose is that the windows that are there now are replacements, but they're replacement wooden windows and They were allowed as replacements in this historic building because they are wooden the proposed vinyl windows are not acceptable under the standards of 548 the historic preservation standards nor under the window replacement window guidelines for historic buildings that design advisory board Updated and I'll say republished Within the past year We have a fairly substantial track record going back to the adoption of the 2008 CDL I think it was 14 Applications for vinyl windows and historic buildings that were denied. So we are consistent about this a couple of those went to DRB on appeal and those were upheld. I think at least one of them went to Superior Court Environmental Division, otherwise known as environmental court So it feels a little bit like finality here, but I understand that this is a separate property a separate application But we've been pretty consistent in not allowing vinyl replacement windows in historic buildings. So The application was denied And here it is on appeal Standards were changed somewhat recently to add fiberglass as an acceptable material. What's the Iverglass and vinyl from the city's perspective Well, feel free to pipe in Mary and back me up if I miss something But I guess I'll back up a little bit since the 2008 adoption of the CDO Standards around acceptability for materials whether it's replacement siding or replacement windows has evolved over time through application review and appeal Locally to the DRB and or to environmental court I'll point out for example Fiber cement collaborate is now acceptable material Historic buildings replacement for wooden siding for example. I Think it was felt that the fiberglass windows to your question Katelyn are of significantly better quality and durability and better I don't know if reproduces the right term, but I'll use it reproduce the Appearance and style of the wooden windows as opposed to the vinyl. I Think the term would be replicate and this is something one of those as scots alluded to the evolution of the standards There was a robust review last year by the historic preservation review committee to create this policy and We invited some window retailers to come and demonstrate and provide examples And there was also support from the architectural community that the evolution of fiberglass windows Not only were proving themselves to be more efficient Functional values were better, but the replication of original details molding window trim was closer to wood than we were able to capture in some of the clad wood windows, so there was support For in this in this exploratory period that they did that they ultimately decided When those details can be replicated fiberglass was acceptable the other question that I have is on the Document it says Typically vinyl is not acceptable. Is there like any additional detail on times when vinyl Would be acceptable? I knew that was gonna come up And we've talked about that at staff level as well The show and tell that we did Between window providers contractors and the board Included consideration of vinyl options and none of them Let's say cut the mustard the board the board declined to Specifically say about shell and never do vinyl Within the context of things evolve over time That said I think the windows that are proposed in this application fit into the box of not acceptable They haven't evolved to a point Like the fiberglass windows Where and they would be acceptable question Scott so there's some when new windows if I read it right there's some new windows in this house That are vinyl and they're okay because they're new and they weren't replacing other windows there There's one Yes, because it is an entirely new window it was acceptable and Keep in mind the standard that basically says New additions or alterations and historic buildings should differ from what's there now So that's a key difference. It was an entirely new feature versus a replacement feature. So you're looking at the window Additions to historic buildings are Noticeably different than the original. Yes. Yeah And part of the reason I'm sort of guessing that part of the reason about the vinyl windows is aesthetics Is that right? Well aesthetics, but more specifically the standards in 548 About materials detailing retentions to mention retention Sure, we can move it into that right that the city has designed review standards on our article 6 and more specifically About historic under 548 Yeah, what does it look like? It's shiny white plastic Well, I would refer back to this policy, I think I included it in your packet Yeah, I did and Mary feel the feel free to fill in any gaps. I might leave Finish is part of it finish Durability Yeah, finishing durability I think detailing Yes Are there specific? What was that Jeff? I'm sorry. I'm scrolling through this Consider the following items I understand are there factors we would point to in this list to say these vinyl windows don't satisfy fire steps, I think it really comes down to the material and the finish That's like the second bullet basically basically We want to hear from the applicant. You've heard some of the discussion we have your appeal submission and Wondering if you'd like to address any of the board's questions that were asked to staff first before seeing if the board has anything, you know finish look Differential between your windows and what would be otherwise allowed Probably would be helpful Yes Yeah, because I'm particularly curious on how the standard has evolved over over time And can I ask if the manufacturer of this window Coltec was part of the show and tell that was done here? I Don't specifically remember this manufacturer's name We saw the panel saw a great number of windows But I don't recall the name of this manufacturer Because I would agree that most windows are most vinyl windows are cheap and are you know Just fly-by-night type of installers and I would argue that these are not those In previous denials they they mention short warranties as indications of short lives This line has a lifetime warranty and they don't just throw that around because they have a different level of window that they give a 30-year warranty So they're differentiating this one from their 30-year warranty. So they have confidence in it the fact that it is from Nova Scotia and it has the high performance to energy and kind of sealing for Wind and moisture prevention like rain egress. It has to be relatively stiff. It has to be Physically high performance to have the kind of sealing capabilities it it has and So that's what attracts me to it and really the energy performance that they're about three times more efficient than Typical windows that doesn't really address The city's concerns. I think that the questions that the board was asking of how does it move from? Wood was acceptable then clad wood was acceptable and clad wood is showing aluminum to the outside So aluminum is an acceptable Appearance and then fire with us is an acceptable appearance and I would if I had found this performance in a fire with us When do I would have gotten it the options I did find was Wood clad for three times the price and the price these windows are going to cost $2,400 and three times the price would be seventy two hundred dollars. I know that's for the four of them And not install that's that's just the window in this apartment I'm renting for eight hundred fifty dollars a month to a single mother and I'm not you know I'm gonna upgrade the kitchen and bathroom, but That difference would be forty hundred dollars that's that's different and if that's the difference to for the Finish of windows that are on the the back of a house That's a big difference and again, it's there would be a switch to aluminum clad you'd be seeing aluminum instead of vinyl which I think it is different, but it's not Super different in the realm of finishes Mentioned the durability and lifetime warranty. Do you have any info on that or are you able would you be able to to get us that? Yeah, yeah, I didn't with the original application or appeal didn't anticipate that the the warranty was going to be of Interest to the city, but yes, I could provide that. I mean, it's their website has it too. I don't know if your your devices their web connected You're doing mostly casements and awnings. It looks like these windows. Yeah, and are they the same Two over two look is that what you're right? Yeah in the in the discussion with the city The city did agree that the appearance they are mimicking the appearance sufficiently. So that's not the structural appearance they're not Held up over but yet the material appearance is the issue They didn't do the option of having a fatter cross rail, but do they do they do that just curious they do have that option and I They have they have it in a flat profile, but not in the textured profile. So I chose the The two over two textured profile rather than having this the simulated meeting rail that that would be flat. So But yeah, there it is an option if that were preferred Leo Any other questions for the applicant? All right So we appreciate you coming and presenting this for us. We'll Take it under advisement. I guess with that. We'll close the public hearing on this So we'll probably discuss this after the sketch Okay, all right, thank you. Thank you. So the next item on our agenda is a sketch plan review Zsp 23-3 300 Flint Avenue how it's Howard Center for human services I'm gonna swear you in just because We should do that even for sketch plans. So will you raise your right hand? Anybody who wishes to testify Do you swear that the testimony you're about to give in this matter under consideration is true and correct under the pains and penalties of Urgery, yes, all right, so I'm sketch plan, but you seem to have a pretty well fleshed out project We have the plans in front of us. I suspect you're probably itching to move forward to Application given the degree of Detail put into your plans so If you want to walk us through quickly, I don't think there's a lot left unresolved A few questions, but it seemed like staff answered them all pretty strongly But you know it is sketch plan So you're welcome to present it to us and get our initial feedback non-binding isn't I do have your presentation, but my adapters missing so we've just gone to go get another one So we'll be able to put that up on the board We also have it all here. Okay. Well, thank you. Thank you. So Quickly, I'm Joe White with Whitenberg real estate advisors were the Advisor to Howard Center Sandy McGuire CFO COO of Howard Center and we have Sam Biel With Duncan business you architects is the architect on the project and Kevin Warden who's with engineering ventures the civil engineer So they'll they'll give the presentation of the quick presentation of the plan When Sandy's done Sandy was just kind of Just a brief overview of what Howard Center is planning to do here and what So good evening everyone just wanted to give a high-level summary We are looking at continuing to use the location down on the corner of Pine and Flynn for outpatient mental health substance use and developmental disability service provision The site location is a great location for us. It has been for many years It's very accessible to many of our clients walking biking the bus stop right out front as well as coming by car and so we've looked at different Geographic information for both staff and clients done heat maps We've looked at our future needs and really determine this continues to be a great location For the services that we provide in the community and looking for expanded space For the site. It's a building that was never built for our purposes it's failing in many ways and looking to expand the site and improve the site for our purposes specifically to increase the accessibility and the efficiency for clients who right now have to go to multiple locations to get their services To be able to come to one location as well as to increase the staff care coordination That's done across multiple Have them all in one location as well. So wanting to Increasing the amount of space that we have in the location in an updated facility One quick question. I'm just curious What do you do operationally when this thing's under construction? I assume you're taking down the existing building as a first step. We're working on that plan We're looking at a couple different components Repurposing our administrative offices at 208 Flynn Avenue and looking for those folks to be able to be hybrid remote Or in some other capacity to be able to do some outpatient services And that's really to try to minimize for our clients as much as possible You're not coming here right now. You're just going to go down the street But also looking at what does it mean as far as providing care to folks? We do a lot in the community and a variety of locations including people's homes What does that look like? Can we increase that and then what other space might we need to pick up? To help as well. So trying to put all those pieces together with minimal disruption as possible, but there will be some Let me start you go. All right. Hi Kevin Orton engineering ventures also at 208 Flynn Avenue just down the street from here and This is the proposed plan We may not have included the existing conditions Which has a building that spans from Pine Street to Flynn much like this but smaller and It's a little more set back from Flynn it has parking on Pine Street There and it has parking off of Flynn similar to what you see here So what's changed is that we've become much more efficient with the layout Instead of single-loaded parking on one side along the Western boundary. You can see here. It's double-loaded Parking extends below the building Which Sam will talk about as a larger building The the main entry for most folks visiting the site will be off of Flynn and there's One curb cut which moves down a little bit from the existing and is much more suited for Circling in dropping off at the front door and then going into the parking to find a space to park or to loop Around and leave like the shuttle might do etc We have taken great pains not to extend Did the developed portion of the site towards Engelsby Brook which is to the north and the wetland this parcel Spans Engelsby so you can see that on the north the northern half of the site and we've had Gilman Briggs wetland biologists look at that delineate the well and we've had an our out to confirm the delineation it's definitely a resource we want to protect and The main way we're doing that that the main functions there are that it's heavily shaded So we're really not looking at removing any trees There are some buffers that I want to speak a little bit about that are important and There are some invasive species Actually back near where the dumpster is proposed which is close to where the existing dumpsters are the The the buffers there are existing impacts to which consists of parking a small building Draw sorry sidewalks in just lawn area. That's just kind of been mowed and maintained and This this proposes building and parking that extend really no further than those existing Impacts and unlike the existing site the parking lots and building drain towards the the buffer and the wetlands Unmitigated so there's no stormwater treatment on the existing site the buildings and parking all drain inwardly to buy our attention and filter areas and then I think on the next exhibit If you click ahead Mary under that left right where the hand is you can see large chambers which Water is stored in and then let out at a slow rate back into the Anglesby River after it's been broke after it's been treated And then I would just add the benefit of parking below the building and the fact that No rainwater is really hitting that and it's shaded We do have some landscaping plants a little later on that talk of show the shading shade trees so forth There's some utility stuff, but it's pretty pretty straightforward warrants or utility. Yeah before we go past this I did want to highlight that we worked with BED to locate the transformer Which you probably need to order like last week How far out transformers are I think staff had some questions sorry about the location of the transformer we worked with BED to try to find the right spot for it I don't know that there's another spot for it, but I just wanted to highlight that Yeah, I think maybe one of the only other things to comment on as we reviewed with DPW the traffic generation And there's certainly more space in the building. There's more parking But the trip generations are below the standard for running a traffic impact analysis and or we left from DPW concurred with that finding those Tables are in your in the application there It's below 75 trips in the peak hour. So I have some questions about that because I think You may see some Neighbors believe otherwise Based on our experience with the parcel across the street I noticed that you calculated it based off medical office and Residential or or a general office But that's not all clinic in general office in that building right What specifically are you thinking is not that category? Is it I mean is this I Haven't looked at the specific Kevin and I did have multiple phone conversations about trying to figure this out because it's not there's not a Straightforward designational medical office building and there's a different component to it and I'm wondering what are the other I'm trying to look at the elevations and for plans like what the other Uses are that this could have been fit into and how that affects the traffic generation because you're very close and and I Know city market did one and I know I think the Alvarez property even did a traffic study because that intersection Can get problematic It's nice that you're an existing use and so we're really only measuring the delta between what's there today and was there in the future Mm-hmm, but since you're so close I look at that You know Classification is medical office In general office, I'm like are we really within that sketch? Is this the standard sort of medical office expect to see that generation number running from and And I'm putting it out there a sketch plan for something you just think about And whether or not you want to consider just doing a traffic study Anyway considering you're so close to the threshold and this is so fairly This has been a fairly hot area for traffic Issues from the neighbors to the south from Flynn Avenue in the Champlain Parkway from the Alvarez development you know Development and because now I think all the traffic is going to be routed out of one driveway as opposed to two in the existing condition The so a couple of things on that it certainly let's I think we as a team should go back through our considerations and take take that question and advisement and Recheck we did use medical clinic General office and that seemed to best fit certainly general office relates to all of the operational office you know management that happens at For the Howard Center much like what I think is happening in 208 Flynn now and some of the stuff That's in the existing facility and the medical clinic relates to supporting You know the folks that come in The other option would have been like a doctor's office or dentist office, and it just didn't seem to fit that use Maybe the medical clinic and dental or doctor's office are the closest but general office certainly for management Staff and they're really I don't think is another use in the building So it's it's really that question of medical clinic versus medical office, which we can revisit As far as the curb cuts curb cuts are pretty similar. There's just the one on pine and the one on Flynn What we did do is make it possible not not for regular use, but it's possible to In the future if we wanted to allow for flexibility of passenger vehicles So leave from under the building out either towards pine or Flynn and our thought there was if there was an emergency Vehicle pulled into either one of the curb cuts cars could exit To the alternative curb cut, but it's it wouldn't be for regular use so I got confused then so okay There's still going to be a curb cut out towards pine That's right Is that lot accessible from under the building that's what Kevin was speaking to that Temporarily you can have that connect in the event of an emergency But we wouldn't want that to be a regular traffic flow pattern for purposes of shortcutting the light Spaces are striped right now such that there's stripes such that you could not get through on a typical day Were you actually speaking of pine Street? Well, do you have any entrance to the building on pine Street or facing pine Street? Yes. Yeah, yeah I can show you in more detail when we get to the floor plans. Absolutely Perspectives it wasn't clear what we You see this a lot particularly on pine Street The main entrance Plaza if you will is facing a parking lot off the street. We are trying to move towards Street activation, you know, so second walking on pine Street could You'll invite it to enter the you know, not that it's really a public. I can speak to that. Oh, cool Sort of works All right, that's all I have Is there anything else? Okay, can you go to the landscape plan? I'll keep all of this brief, but I can address some of your questions AJ So I think Kevin, sorry, I'm Sam Beal from Duncan Regional Ski architecture It's they can't really see it but on the Flynn side We do have a rainwater catchment area and extensive planting along Flynn So I wanted to highlight that for the group. We also do have trees Appropriately shading the western parking lot, which was an affirmative fighting I think from zoning that we were in compliance with the shading requirements Other than that, I think we're we're trying to do a really nice landscape along Flynn Avenue. Well You know providing something that is going to be safe for Howard Center's staff and clients Any questions about the landscape plan before I flip over to the architectural drawings There's no to that a very minor intrusion into the well in the statutory buffers zone Sure, yeah, there there are three Buffers we should just clarify one is the so the wetlands basically are at the top of the slope you can see the hatch At the top of the page here Yeah, right in there and So from the edge of that wetland, there's a 50-foot state buffer and there we do have some Reconstruction of parking lots and a little bit of stormwater outfalls the city also has a seventy hundred Hundred foot buffer for the wetland and then a 75 from the angles be brook, so they're three overlapping so there are The reconstruction And you can see the cross hatching there are in the 50-foot state buffer And I think that's probably what's referenced in the staff findings Instead of shedding towards the buffer untreated. It'll still drain back into the treatment areas Before you get on this site, did you move there's something about where the bus Did I get moved or yeah, so that was previously a little bit further north Yeah, it was kind of in front of the building. It was going to interrupt our pine Street entrance Which I'll show you in more detail And we worked with Green Mountain Transit to relocate it further south the existing plant would be helpful next time around You'll see that for the next permit application I promise Okay, sure Well, can you zoom in a little bit? So again, this is privileging the Flynn Avenue side But you can see here the basic massing of the structure. We have two bars we have north bar in a south bar with a connecting bridge and You know Kevin already spoke a little bit about the parking on the site and how we're parking underneath the building I'm going to the next slide So this is that main entrance that yes, we lovingly rendered for you AJ we have Three main materials here and I did bring some show and tell if anybody's interested But this is the Flynn Avenue side main entrance. You can see the small dog building beyond The orange and green structure I will say yeah to me. It's a very disappointing main entrance. Uh-huh, okay Christian you really don't know where the entrance is because it's really around the corner. Yes, you don't really see it Yeah, and I know you get the overhang there and it got a few other things Yeah, well, I think to AJ's point previously We were trying to balance two things one is we have clients who arrive by vehicle And so we need a main entrance that works for people who are arriving by vehicle we also have people who arrive by foot and Bicycle and bus and so trying to thread the needle to have a main entrance That does both is not perfect. The other thing is that our society still has Dignitism attached to people who seek mental health services and so having the front entrance big and bold and beautiful in the front Wasn't exactly perfect for our program. And so we were seeking something in between which Maybe disappointing Brad, but it's something that we were Trying to find the right fit there to carefully balance both those two site considerations As well as our clients need for some privacy as they're visiting We get the privacy part You know I disagree but So on that main front facade we have kind of three materials happening. We have a copper base Vertical siding we have a high density fiber cement above 14-inch weather to lap It is a meant to reference some of the residential style construction that we have in this neighborhood We also have a vertical blue siding that generally is where we have vertical circulation And I don't have a sample, but the teal masonry columns are meant to create that bridge that connects between those copper siding and the high density fiber cement and That is something that we then tipped on our side to create a nice place to sit at our front entrance As well as above we have a material called dichroic glass Which does both a shadow and a reflection in different colors? And so that's what you kind of see above there And so as the Sun moves across this facade, we will have these changing colors and lights that will happen Throughout the day to animate this facade It's these these vertical fins right here We do have solar shading on the windows one of the things we've learned from our mechanical engineers that this is a cooling load Dominated building and so decreasing our solar heat gain coefficient is important and so the solar shades are Punctuating the facade in a nice way, but also doing good work in terms of reducing our energy Next slide those are glass panels that slide up and down in those grooves They do not actually physically slide, but they are located within a groove in a fixed position So this is that Flynn Avenue facade. You can see just above I didn't speak to it yet, but we have a rooftop terrace We don't have a lot of outdoor space on this site And so this is an important respite point for our staff to provide a place for them to get outdoors While they're working Staff's comment minute comment about that terrace about what is Is that I have a wet bar there and they'd say we can't do that so that's understood Yes, I located a sink there because I felt like if step if the Howard Center staff wanted to have an event up There it'd be nice to have a sink to be able to you know do drinks or something so understood if that makes it habitable You can't have an upstairs kitchen Understood same as you know greenhouses aren't counted towards In that height calculation Okay, okay Got it That's a general height request that 5% variance is something that's allowed in the ordinance and we were requesting that in part because the air-based Geothermal heat pump system has some large duct work And so in order to get the floor-to-floor heights to work optimally that extra 18 inches made a lot of difference between a Mean 8-foot ceiling and a more generous 9-foot ceiling for staff Do you have the pine Street? Yes, so I can point that out to you here. So this is Flynn Avenue facade you're recently looking at this is the pine Street facade here We have two garage doors that open out to a shared community room that occurs on this lower level the main entrance is here Thank you This is a spherical spare tower. We have offices above and so we have the same Mason repairs that are engaged on Flynn stretch out create a courtyard space here in front of that multi-purpose room And then that's our main entrance with Fronting directly on Is that considered the building main entrance will Clients go to that entrance or they come to the parking entrance They will come to the main entrance that I showed previously on a long Flynn Is that just like an turn to a hallway like the side door on a hotel kind of thing? No, there will be a vestibule. Maybe we go to the floor plans next and I can show H.A. What that looks like So this is the basement. We have storage Mechanical and bike storage you can go next one unless you guys have questions Okay, can you zoom into the northeast corner there, Mary? So these are those Mason repairs I mentioned. This is the courtyard That's okay the courtyard outside of the multi-purpose room. These are garage doors This is that main entrance goes into a vestibule open stair up to above and then there's a hallway That takes you back to the garage bathroom storage to serve the multi-purpose room So that's garage beyond it. Yes so that multi-purpose room and Other space effectively screens the parking garage from Pine Street any other questions about the Pine Street entrance Okay, it's really good. I mean not a main entrance, right? Yeah, no elevator there anything else like that. It's serving That multi-purpose room looks like and yes, and the staff can get to pretty easily but yeah public They probably wouldn't the public would not be Invited to go there generally unless there was an event, you know in the multi-purpose space. Yeah Okay, doors not in not like as an access to the parking. No, I apologize that I could have foreseen that sorry Glass roll-up doors so that we can have that outdoor space be married. Is that better space? Howard Center plans to use or is that like Going to be third-party commercial public space. The intention is for them to use the space Yeah Can you take me to the southwest corner and I'll talk about the main entrance? Which building across the street the small dog is shorter because the small dog buildings four stories. I Don't know specifically how tall that building is And so this south part of the building is Howard Center's first call and access and intake services So clients will either come go up the elevator to search seek services on upper floors or they will go right towards a waiting room You take us to the second and third floor, please Before we guys oh Do we when we were discussing on Pine Street this honor That's how the front entrance had to Face the street. So it's so So I think there is there is a regulation Forget which one but it does reference how the how the main entrance should face the street. Yeah, so We can talk about that because I think the canopy and the entrance does face the street The door faces west which doesn't face directly to the street But I don't think that a door facing directly under the street is the only way you can achieve that So upper floors we have direct client Treatment in some areas some areas are more general office administrative functions The second and third floor are Mostly the same footprint And then the top floor is the aforementioned rooftop terrace with a potting sink Which we will relabel for the final permit applications. Thank you, Mary and Then I think Towards the end we have some elevations I appreciate it entirely Mary I'm also trying to be mindful of everybody's time So we have elevations which we can discuss but I think we've seen most of it through the axon of metrics and the renderings and so We just wanted to mention before I Yeah, sure. I mean we have them here I'm clear. There's some striping That Yes, so This is Screening so we have vertical elements here that are screening the parking so we need to provide The appropriate amount of airflow so that the garage can be an open garage and therefore we don't have to have Ventilation or sprinkler. This is where the code works. And so these are vertical cover Bars that create that visual separation so you don't see the parking as much You still have that good airflow to create the require This thing angles be Yes, yes, but I think You know I've been working on Pine Street as I've been working on this project and as you walk south on pine on The west side you will see through angles be brook when the leaves are down and so we want to make sure that facade is Dressed up and you know attractive so that in the winter. It's nice And so those are those are wood or there they would be copper to match the vertical copper siding That you see on the lowest bar of building appears that they're they're staggered a bit or they're they are there an offset sort of random pattern How about the west elevation I want to make sure they understand that's a wall section that yes, that's a wall section, but showing you the South side of the north bar. Yeah West is if we are in the parking lot Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So there's an elevated sort of connector in the middle And what is underneath that is that parking also or we have tandem parking? That would be for staff only Located in that area We had another project that had a similar drive-through pass through and it was opposed to be I think a retirement community and our department was particularly you or at least we are based on some other concerns were particularly Focused on the height of those pass-throughs. Mm-hmm to make sure the trucks fire trucks could easily pass through in the event of emergency Sure, I'm assuming you've looked at that but Falsas fire truck or ambulance. Yeah, it's not intended to be I mean that would be 13 foot 6 We did have a technical review meeting with I can't speak to the other project Do you looked at in what site constraints might have required a truck to pass through? Yeah, would you remember what I'm talking about? But yeah, I think like the whole entrance and all the parking was through like you had to go Yeah, if you had to drive through the building to get to another part of the site I would think that may have been it but yeah, make sure to make that clear. Yeah, and so you're from formal presentation Sounds good. I do remember that directly. Yeah, and we also had a technical review meeting and the fire Marshall stone review of the project. He did want a consideration for a A riser inside the parking should his staff need to go in But he didn't want to drive through Just make a flow again No screening there north You would be screened because well if you if you walk by it There's there's there's the four plex and then there's quite a lot of vegetation there So I don't think you would actually see through there, but I know what you mean Yeah I wasn't following the logic of where the screening was relative to where right We privileged the screening to where the typical parking was going to occur the tandem parking I did not see that as that's I didn't think that was going to be a typical use. We'll see operationally. We're not sure but It's a good observation But this is sort of a curiosity question. Yeah the copper Is that a copper panel just copper bent and made into panels? There's on the siding That's what we're hoping for though copper is very expensive these days. So we'll see what happens So what's that? It bleeds a little bit. Yes. Yes. It does. No, it has has a lot of qualities but that is our something that we're still exploring and We do have a cm on board who's going to give us some pricing input and We may have a different story when we present finally. Yeah Still something that will meet the ordinance, of course Interesting materials. I will say the dichroic glass is something I've I mean, I've seen it sculpturally a lot It's pretty amazing stuff. It's awesome. Yeah Okay, any other questions about the elevations Okay, so I had a couple of things that I wanted to say before I Finish talking One is we did we'll close out the existing permits Howard Center is aware of that now and we'll take care of that before the final permit application I appreciate the input that's happened to kind of as we've been having this conversation And so it seems like folks have read the staff comments and you've identified areas where you had more questions So that's I appreciate that I would like some consideration or a confirmation that you agree with the staff about the five percent high variation allowance That's a really important thing for us to know for sure Going into the final permit application Similarly, we'll submit the photometric. We don't have the authority on sketch plan to let you know for sure You can't let me know for sure, but it would be nice if you discussed it and you know, it was in the minutes Um, the photometric plan will submit and it'll comply with the zoning ordinance Um Did also want two other things. We talked about the traffic study The other piece is uh staff determined a max onsite parking based on 8.19 and um some discussion of that and uh Perhaps not confirmation, but acknowledgement of the staff Review of that would be helpful You're below the max moment. We are well below the max, but um The client would like to have future flexibility in case needs change We think parking is going the other way, but we're trying to preserve optionality. We are I don't know. I don't know Well, you know, um, I I'll say this I think our typical sketch plan approach is to really deliberate and You haven't heard any particular questions or concerns about the height from the board So I would take that to be an indication that we generally think the heights You know staffs And I think the energy the commitment to energy performance of the building is yes is respected. I would say understood. Okay Okay, that's that's you know, you get a lot going on here with this Yes, and as for the parking, you know, you're under the max We can't say one way or the other about the desire to go up to the max In the future, you know, you're under the max. It seems like the calculation is done fairly mathematic You know, if it's operationally enough parking for you, then great But if you need more then there's a max and you're below the max, you know, I can't see what shakes out What becomes a critical permit condition through all of this, but okay The future parking seems more like a site constraint than a zoning. Yeah, a hundred percent. Yep, unless you figure out a way to add 25 Figure out now, but agreed There's also off-site parking, you know, yes, the other things you can look at is off-site parking I know there's some other parking available in the area Um So if you needed more space, you could consider doing it that way and your application is extra overflow I wanted to make sure everyone understood this is a segregate lot here. That's not involved When we talked about what will you see coming up pine street? In fact with this connector, you will see there's a lot and landscaping It would be a very different design. I think if we had control of that corner personally I had one other Straw poll question and it dates goes back to AJ. You're coming about the traffic study and You know, we don't think one's required. We we've met with DPW who has a good feel about the intersections especially they have a a better sense with the The parkway coming in and how that might change the immediate Intersection which I drive through every day. So I appreciate your your concerns And so we are close. We think we use the right designation But if it's going to get to the point where you think either for your own needs or to, you know Satisfy what you might hear from The neighborhood or neighbors if you think you're going to ask for one You know might want to get a tip of the hat sooner rather than later because that's a time component Have you heard any neighbors asking for one? Does anyone explain that I've heard we had an in-game meeting, right? Yeah No one's here today either so Yeah, I mean that's a that's a good sign. I I just know you're close and yeah, no, that's a good point The intersection does get problematic more so in the am peak which is likely before your peak traffic generation occurs And it just would be noted you would be good to know for the record impacts this on that intersection That's not a full traffic study doesn't have to be a full blown traffic study, but just Maybe a little bit more rounded out. I think would be beneficial. We've put other people in that area through that those steps Yeah, I would say the the Trap the trip generation is is much more spread throughout the day for this sort of a use then of course a residential use or Other So you've got visits throughout the day including staff coming and going or out making visits themselves General question so the a lot of the curb curbing along Flynn Avenue is the existing pattern, isn't it? That's right I'm just wondering about street trees They're tough there don't seem to be a lot of street trees on the North side of Flynn Avenue this seemed to have fair number on the south Historically wasn't a sidewalk along the north side of Flynn And so when the sidewalk went in it was justified as close to the road as it could get it And so there's not a lot of room for street trees. I think in those bump outs There's power poles That's the thing we have overhead power on the side of the street so We're limited. I do think on the landscape plan. We're adding some trees right on the back side of the sidewalk Which is on our property. So they aren't street trees, but they'll read As trees along the street. I think right there right on the either side of the entry Can you go to flip flip to the landscape plan? I don't remember Yeah, I know this landscaping. I just can't remember how how vertical it is be the next Sheet or two sheets down Whoop you went all the way I think three or four We do have one tree I think we're gonna have to adjust because it's right on top of the transformer But uh put it on the power poles. Yeah. Yeah No, it's mostly smaller vegetation along flood no street trees specifically in front of the building One piece I just wanted to add in response to the Questions about the entrance is a couple of the considerations that Howard center has were we have Quite a few clients who arrive by ssta and these are some clients currently served in our downtown location on Manuski avenue That is proof increasingly challenge Challenging for the ssta to be able to stop and have those clients get out and access access the Entrance that's right on Manuski avenue And so we're mindful of that being able to pull off safely as well as clients particularly those in wheelchairs coming off The ssta being able to get easily into the building and also thinking about crisis services being located here And so when folks are arriving often times by far other ways as well But when we have individuals and families and children arriving Being able to enter the building With some discretion Okay, thanks And I this is it's a constant issue. I mean we had it at the Whatever the the hotel on that's next to the td bank building You know that they they try to do all these things to make it an entrance and it's You know they weren't that successful there, but I can offer the under the port to crescendo the port to share into the Armory building. Yeah, I mean, it's it's Not an unusual problem and We can't deny some functionality We deal with it on most of our urban projects where you have people arriving in a suburban way in a vehicle And people arriving by pedestrian. You don't want to have two entrances. It's it's a problem I'll say that I like the three light wells in the north building. Oh Yeah, I think those are going to be nice spaces for the staff It's relatively deep footprint. And so we wanted to make sure we got as much natural light into the inside of the building Um, well, it's been a nice presentation Um, I think you've heard Generally board feedback. Yep We need it, um Obviously, there's a need for it. Howard center seems like it's put a lot of effort into this And I think we all look forward to seeing it in final form Obviously shortly. Yep So just a public comment So it wasn't necessary or desirable to present us to the neighborhood planning assembly for board five It did it did go. Yeah. Yeah, where was I? I think you were there. Oh, it was packed that far Yeah Appreciate it. Um And um, yeah, so I guess that anybody objection will close the sketch plan. Thanks. Thank you, AJ At our meeting is done. Oh Oh But our public zoning permit we have one other item Estates Actually No, I actually have a comment about the draft changes. Oh, let's hear it two two um, so Number on number 11 The incorporation reference of all plans presented. Yep Uh, if you look at I think it's conditioned to a standard active 50 permits They say the project shall be completed in accordance with all the plans and testimony and evidence Uh Maybe look at that language. I think it's a little bit more than incorporation by reference. I think it says the project has to be completed in accordance with all of the representations and Plans on file so that they become binding conditions Okay, so active 50. Yeah, I can send you the language And then on number 12 Mm-hmm Boundary seems I understand the logic, but What about other types of property disputes? Like they don't have the right to use my driveway for this project or we've had a few of those that are more than boundary Easily Uh, what about them? Uh They're a boundary and Yeah property disputes D. I mean we've had deed fights before and things like that I'm just trying to be less than specific Okay, and I thought you were just going to say toss the liquor license condition should be okay with me, but I don't care Well, should it should it also say cannabis license Oh god Yeah, I mean sure That came up last time we had somebody here. Yeah seem very nervous about it I'm not licensing pickleball. We're okay and gray mushrooms That's next yeah, I have a question scott. So Permitting and inspections that's that's the division, right? No, that's the department. That's the department. Yeah zoning Exist in there. Yes, because I didn't I don't see zoning on anything else I said zoning permit, but is there a zoning department? Is there a zoning division? The zoning division It's been a while since we updated these. I know ken learner did the update of these last So I'm gonna yes 10 years ago at least So there's a lot of language referring to public works and ISD inspection services division That's now moot Right, so it's the zoning division and the trades division that deal with all of this permitting stuff The division is where one gets zoning permits Yep, and trades division is where one gets building permits. Correct But we're both in the same department In the same building now fine the same building So do you want to see these with revisions per aj's? comments before taking action or do you want to take action with Conditions for the conditions to reflect his comments Yeah, why don't we just do a revised version Okay, okay, perfect. Okay. Cool. Thank you. So with that, we'll close our public meetings