 So, today, on Anabaptist Perspectives, we're here again with John D. Martin, and we are discussing your own story of coming to grips with the radical economic call that you see the gospel is teaching us. When did you first realize you needed to make major shifts in how you approach your finances? Well, I think God has a sense of humor, and he saw that one year when I was teaching high school in the Christian school, I decided that we would study the book of Luke as our Bible study in high school. And I didn't get very far into the book of Luke before I realized that in the book of Luke, you encountered this subject just the whole way through the book. I mean, you hardly get finished with anything else until you're into this subject again. And I began to realize there was a tremendous dissonance between what I was teaching and what I was seeing with my more in-depth study of Luke than I had ever done before. And what I was brought up with, I never heard a sermon on this. The only sermons I would have heard would have been sermons on Christian stewardship, which basically, like I said, were sort of a biblical defense of the American dream of investing money and making it grow. And I was seeing something altogether different here. And so when I got to the end of the book of Luke, I made my own personal commitments that I would not accumulate wealth. I would not lay up security for the future, especially there's a whole parable on that that you don't say I have much goods laid up for many years. I will build my house on the corner of the farm and I will just fiddle around in my shop the rest of my life and enjoy myself and live off of my wealth. Go to Florida and play shuffleboard or whatever that I would not have that mentality that I would serve God, I would not accumulate wealth. I would make no provision for the future because it's very clear in that parable. I don't even know how long I'm going to live. So if I'm going to lay up for the future, how much am I going to need? I mean, I may die tomorrow. I may not lay up nearly enough. How am I to decide how much I need for the future? I decided to take a position of what I called at that time and still feel comfortable calling voluntary poverty. Now most people immediately think that I live in a house with a dirt floor, with no running water. If you look at poverty in the dictionary, it means to live below the accepted level. And so that's how I want to define that term. So I made a commitment, I made a voluntary commitment that I would live out a life of voluntary poverty, living below the level that most people would say someone in my position should be living and give as much of my resources as possible to the gospel. I would not lay up for retirement according to that parable. I would trust Jesus for my practical needs. In fact, in Matthew chapter 6, the third thing that Jesus said is how we're supposed to apply this. He says, don't take any thought for your life. I think he meant anxious thought. Don't sit around worrying about this, what you shall eat or what you shall drink. Then he gives six reasons why that doesn't make any sense. He says, isn't the life more than meat? I'm a copy editor of medical journals. And I'm prepared to say that in my body are trillions of miracles taking place all the time. And to forgot to make a body like this was a fantastic creation, much more difficult than to make the food that it would take to sustain it. I mean, a potato or beans is much less complicated than this body that God already gave me. And to say that he made this wonderful creation, this miracle that I walk around in every day. But I'm a little worried whether or not he can supply the potatoes and the beans. That makes no sense. He says, is not the body more than what it takes to sustain it? So that's the first thing he says. If God made this, he certainly is capable of making what it takes to sustain it. Why are you worried about it? The second thing he says is God cares for the animals, which compared to us are relatively of less importance. I mean, the animals aren't nearly as important as human beings. And we can look how he takes care of them. I mean, they have all their needs met. And if he does that for them, wouldn't he do that to his most important creation even better? The third thing he says is worry is useless. Worry doesn't accomplish anything. I mean, and he says, so you're shorter than you think you should be? Well, then stand in front of the mirror and worry about it for a half hour. And then measure yourself again and see how much you accomplished. So worry doesn't accomplish anything. If you can do something about the situation, yeah, do it. But to sit and worry about it will not accomplish a thing. So that's why we're not to be anxious because it won't accomplish anything. The fourth thing he says is that out there is the grass. And God knows that tomorrow I'm going to get out of lawn mower and I'm going to mow that grass. But he will sustain that grass up until the minute the blade hits it. Why? Why didn't he cut off the supplies a couple of days before? He knows the grass is going to be cut off. And why continue to invest in something that's going to be cut off? And then he finally he says, seek the kingdom of God. Well, most people in our society, they want to work for the government. The reason they want to work for the government is because the government always takes really good care of its servants. It gives them the best benefits. It gives them the best pay. And everybody wants to work for the government. Well, we are working for the most fantastic government in the universe, the kingdom of God. Why would he take less care of me than the United States government takes of its employees? So he says seek the kingdom. And it only makes sense that God takes good care of his servants. And so all these things will be taken care of. And then the last thing he says, we're supposed to think only about today. We're not to think about tomorrow because tomorrow will take care of itself. And so if I start worrying about tomorrow today, that will be a graceless worry because I will be giving grace only moment by moment today. I'm not going to be giving any grace for anything that's going to happen tomorrow, just for what's going to happen today. In fact, in the Old Testament that's a verse that says, as thy days social thy strength be, God has promised to meet my needs today. And that I should trust that. And then when I get to tomorrow, tomorrow will be today and God will take care of those needs. That's the commitment I made. It was a radical commitment. I'm now 75 years of age. I have laid up no retirement. I have no retirement plan at all. Now the rubber does really hit the road. What if I get sick? What if I can't work? And I can't answer that question. All I can say is I believe what Jesus said, that I'm supposed to concentrate on today. I'm supposed to give away my resources. I'm supposed to trust God to meet my needs. That is my personal story. And it all started with that Bible class when I decided to teach the Book of Luke. It's interestingly, an interesting thing is I didn't know of anybody else who believed this. And then I went to work for Christian Life Publications. I was actually their first full-time staff writer. And when I got there, there was a dear brother by the name of John Snyder who also came to these views by teaching the Book of Luke in the Christian Day School. And I didn't know anybody else who believed this. And when I got to Christian Life Publications, he was working in the Sword and Trumpet Office, which was another publisher. And we discovered each other. And he was a tremendous blessing to me. He helped me round out much of what you heard today. He was the only person I knew that I could discuss this with. And so then he came to the end of his life and he called me one day and he said, John, he said, I have made no provisions even for my funeral. What shall I do? What if I get sick? He said, now the rubber hits the road. And I said, John, I don't know what to say. I said, all I can say is I'm gonna watch you because he was about 30 years older than me. I said, I'm gonna watch you and I'm gonna see your testimony of God's grace in this area of your life. John Snyder at the end of his life had a massive stroke that killed him instantly. And he had given his body for medical research. There were no funeral expenses. And that was it. And God met all these needs. He worked up to the day he died. I'm not sure that'll happen to me. I may have a stroke today, who knows? But I do believe that we can trust Jesus when he says that he will meet our needs if we seek first the kingdom of heaven. So that's my personal story. Now I do have some additional teachings here that I would like to give. Our response in this area is an important mark of separation from the world. Jesus only said two things where he said, the Gentiles do this, but I want you to do this. The other one was, he said, the Gentiles rule over people. And in my kingdom, the leaders will serve. That's the other one. And this one, he says, after all these things do the Gentiles seek but seek ye first the kingdom of God. And we Mennonite people are so concerned about separation from the world. Why in the world do we not take seriously the one of two things that Jesus said will show our separation from the world? Number two, Jesus himself chose voluntary poverty. You know the grace of our Lord Jesus that though he were rich, yet he became poor that ye through his poverty might be rich. And we are to follow him. He says the servant should be as his master. So if Jesus chose voluntary poverty, he is our example and we need to follow him. Number three, riches are deceitful. The Bible clearly teaches that in the parable of the soils that riches are deceitful. The cares of this world and all of that take our minds away from being fruitful Christians. And it's interesting that riches are probably the most dangerous thing that we have to come to terms with, but we do almost nothing in terms of the church putting any restrictions on it. And it's interesting to me, we know alcohol is dangerous. We know that among us are people who will not be able to handle alcohol. So we totally abstain. This is more dangerous than alcohol. But the church doesn't do anything about it. They don't put any guidelines in place. They don't put any accountability in place. It's just a free for all. We don't do that with alcohol and we should not be doing it with wealth. Number four, God favors the poor. I heard all my life, well, there's no particular virtue in being poor. Well, the Bible says God has chosen the poor of this world. Rich in faith. Why are they rich in faith? Because they've learned to trust God. It clearly says that. Number five, God pronounces woe on the rich. In Luke chapter six, he says woe into you that are rich. Number six, God measures the gift by what is left. We have this idea we're gonna invest and we're gonna make all this money. Just think how much more we can give. God never says that. He says, look at that widow. She gave all her living. She doesn't even know what she's gonna have to eat tomorrow. And she gave more than all the rest. So God measures the gift, not by what we gave, but by what we have left. Number seven, deaccumulation is a credible evidence of repentance. I already gave the example, John the Baptist, when he was asked what credible, practical, visible evidence of repentance are you looking for? He said, get rid of your extra stuff. Zacchaeus did exactly that. Jesus went to Zacchaeus' house. We have no idea what their discussion was. And Zacchaeus finally stood up and said, half of my goods I give to the poor and I'm gonna restore everything that it took for a fold. And Jesus didn't say, no, wait a minute, Zacchaeus, you're getting the cart before the horse. You need to get a firm graft on your faith. This is the fruit maybe, but you're getting ahead of things here, Zacchaeus. Jesus said, today, salvation is come to this house. He has done what John the Baptist says people do to show their repentance. This man is truly repentant based on what you see he's doing with his stuff. So it's a credible evidence of repentance when we get this right. And the last thing, our economic practices and the use of our resources will be the final test when we stand before God in judgment. Everything else will be dependent on whether our faith finally brought us to value these things the way they should be. And we were generous givers and our whole eternity is gonna be based on what we did with our possessions. Whether we fed the hungry, whether we've clothed the naked or whether we accumulated for ourselves. And this is a passion of mine. I don't understand why this has not been a centerpiece of the practical teaching of the gospel. So fundamentally, how would you summarize the conviction that's driving your actions? You explained, I got to this place and how it's affected your life. Can you pinpoint what's driving this for your life personally? Well, everything I said, but I already said the rubber hits the road now. I'm 75 years old. Yeah. Yeah. And I've made no provision for the future. God has given me a healthy body. He's given me good work to do. And it's my prayer. I don't know if this part will practically be answered in this way. It's my prayer that I can work up to the day I die. And if I can't, oh God, that's why God has provided the community of faith, the liquid, the fluid assets. My money now is flowing to where the needs are and they're made to come in time when that money will flow this way. And that is how it should be. That's part of the answer of what happens if somebody has a stroke and can't take care of themselves. Well, God never planned for an individual Christianity. Christianity was intended to be a community experience. I say to people, if you say I'm gonna be a Christian, but I'm not gonna be part of the church, that's like saying I'm gonna play professional baseball, but I'm not gonna join any team. That's just the way that's the game. You don't play professional baseball unless you're part of a team. And I don't think you're really living out Christianity the way God intended if you're an individualist. It is to be lived out in a body. And when you have needs, those needs will be met by other Christians. Okay, so that was kind of the next question I had. How does this approach to money and wealth intersect with your place in the church? I think you kind of already answered that. But ideally, how practically actually, how does this work exactly? Well, that does work in our congregation. We do not live communitarians in the sense that people think of that, but we do have a general treasury. And the people in our congregation basically do live on the same level and they basically do give their resources into the general treasury. And all of our hospital bills beyond what a person can immediately come up with himself are paid out of the general treasury. In fact, when Obamacare came into existence, we had an audit done by the government and they identified us as a healthcare program of our own and accepted us from Obamacare. So yes, that is how it works in our congregation. There is a general treasury. If there's a need that goes over the heads of the individual, the head of the person individually, the congregation immediately takes responsibility. But that also means if you're gonna make a major investment, you counsel with the congregation because they are eventually a liable for that venture. So yeah, there is a sense in which, even though we're not communitarians, our congregation does function in a way that we're all using our money together. So then for you specifically, what has been a time when you have most questioned your radical loyalty to your economic commitments? What has tested this the most for you? My own age. Okay, so what you're going through right now? What I'm going through right now. In fact, to me, it's exciting. Is God gonna give me the health that I would like to have or how's he gonna do this? I really am not fearing. I'm looking at it as an adventure and I've really gotten to the exciting part of the adventure. How's God gonna handle my more helpless years? So maybe it's not that you're necessarily questioning your, I don't know, loyalty or conviction or whatever, but it's more like, hmm, this'll be interesting. Yeah, that's exactly how I'm looking at it. Wow, that's really, that's interesting. Well, that's the last question I had down, but is there anything else you'd like to share? I think I've said everything that I need to say. Okay, well, thank you so much for coming out and sharing this. I think this is gonna give people a lot to think about. And if you're watching or listening to this and you have questions, feel free to leave them down below in the comments or send them to us via email. So thanks again for sharing. Thank you for joining us for this episode. And thanks to our donors and partners for making this possible. For more episodes, please subscribe or visit our website at anabaptistperspectives.org. You can also leave a comment or review to help more people find our content.