 Welcome to the Monday, July 8th, 2019 meeting of the Montpelier Design Review Committee. I will let staff and committee members introduce themselves. Meredith Crandall, staff. Stephen Everett, Eric Kilbertson, Seth Mitchell. We are advisory to the Montpelier Development Review Board. We will review the applications for the evening and move them forward. And again, we're advisory to the Development Review Board. Do I hear a motion to approve our agenda? Second. All in favor of the agenda, put your hand. Agenda is approved. We can go forward right to the first application, 61 Taylor Street, the city of Montpelier. Do we have you come forward? And just two Evers talking, you can make sure you talk directly to that microphone at the latest we've pointed at whoever is talking. Okay, first one, Tom Bachman, Greg Gossens, Greg is in Seattle, so yes, Anne. Allison Friedkin, down the street. Okay. And describe your sign. So I think you have our application. Down street is planning on putting in a, one of the typical signs, it's four foot ten wide, two foot six high, two foot bottom of the sign to the right, and it will be located right on Taylor Street, 30 inches from the inside edge of the sidewalk. And this is a typical sign that down street has pretty much got all of the town. This is their standard sign. So are you clear where the location is? Yes. Okay. And it's just one? Just one sign, yes. Double side. Double side. And that is one way traffic into that driveway. Is that accurate color of the blue, or is that a slightly darker than that? It's actually not the color at all, and I apologize, I didn't realize that, I think it just depends on your printer, who's like, mine's green or whatever, but I can pass around, I did bring another sign of ours, one up on Bailey and Bobkin, and that's typical, so it's our logo, our company color, so it's a runish at the top and the bottom stripe, and then the middle is white with our black logo and our colors around it, so. Okay. You do that on all of ours, so that, you know, there's a, you recognize it's just like the house. I thought it looked a little different over there, representation, that's okay. And you can hold on to that. That's much nicer color, it's a much more readable. Oh, we can get that rainbow in there. Is there a sign or anything going to go by the housing lobby? Not, not, that's way inside. Yeah. So, no, at that point, hopefully folks for a sign at that point. Elevations in relation to the building itself. From the top of the sign. Four, six. Four, six. So, you know, the first floor of this building is, at that point, there is no, that's where you come in, you've got the cantilever of the apartments, but that's, you know, 20 feet up or something and saying like that. You know, it turns to the center as any signage they're figuring out. I believe, I believe, don't quote me on that, that they are going, I think you could call it a band sign, so there's a part of the building that faces the cantilever that is meant to have, like, letters. So, I believe that's what they're doing. They are not, pretty clear that they're not doing it kind of ground-mounted. And that's, if it was a ground-mounted, because it's all in the same parcel, they would really need to be combined in multi-use, a multi-use sign. I don't think they can add a separate ground-mounted sign. I need to double check the regulations, but I think that's the way it works. I feel like I saw a version where it says, like, I'll kill your transit. So, you know, they tried that. Is there a separate transit center sign that's going out on the street? That's what we were just saying, that we don't think there is. It's not ground-mounted. It's just on the side of the building itself. I wouldn't be surprised if it's elsewhere they have, you know, in the right-of-way, just directional signs when they redo all the signs downtown. Okay. I mean, the direction wasn't one-way entering. No, I'm talking about just the, we had a whole meeting. Informational. Informational signs. Yep. Well, some of them are directional, but informational with some direction when it's not clear. So, the sign is not lit. No, it's not. Is there any lighting adjacent that is helping it, or is it just under the overhang? Actually, it's not under the overhang. It's not under the overhang. And Greg and I discussed that would be, you know, we're designing this sign, and I said, do we need to have it? And we felt confident given the street lighting in that area, the other ambient lighting, and looking at some of the other signs, like just past us, it's a similar sign that I think includes the bank, Capital Plaza, and I don't believe that one is lit either. I mean, we would prefer it not to be just from a maintenance standpoint. And we felt confident that, you know, folks would still be able to, you know, find your handling, driving, although your headlights are, you know, illuminating ahead of you. So, we don't really want to intrude into the light pollution if we don't have to. And is the sign reflective of anyone? It's a reflective page? Not that I'm aware of. No, I mean, it's based on a little panel in the middle. Other than just being blank. Right. And the post bases are buried? Yes. They'll be on the side of the tubes. There is the main entrance for the upstairs units, either by stairway or elevator. Is that where in the building? All the way, yep. All the way in the back? Yeah, there's got to be. And is there any signage on the wall back there? Well, that's what Eric was asking. Yes. And that would indicate, yes. But as I'm saying that, I can hear my property management department going. We'd really like a sign back here. Just be way in the back like that. You have to walk. If you're walking to it, you have to walk past or even driving. You have to go past the transit center. And I think a sign that was maybe out so people can see it from the sidewalk when you're on the right. You have to go around the corner. I certainly wouldn't have a problem with that. You can always do it. You have to be determined to do a sign on the side of the glass. Yeah, lettering on that. Yeah. I think that's actually, I guess when you asked about a sign, I was thinking a sign. Now that I think about it, just like on French block, we ended up doing the lettering. That seems to be the thing. We're doing more common is, you know, doing the final lettering on the door with our, you know, our logo and the name. So we'll probably do something like that. So you have this sign out on the street and it shows the handicap accessible. Obviously there's an elevator back there. But is there anything that I'm going to sign up here and anybody visiting somebody there who might not have been there before, is there any way that they're going to know how to get to the entrance where they should park or any of that or? So the driveway is of one way. One way. No, the other way. This way. Yeah, you're entering this by the sign. Okay. This is one way. Right. And you're not going. I've got to come around this way. Yeah. So folks come in this way. Now, if they are looking to, if they are residents and they're parking back here, because really there's no visitor parking back here. If you're a visitor, you need to be finding, you know, on Main Street or whatever. So residents come in, they come straight through, and this is the big parking area. If you are coming through and dropping somebody off for transit, you come in, and this is where you come under the building and back out. So that's the flow. And as far as the question about, you know, handicap accessibility, again, if they're driving, that's, you know, all the way in. If again, they're resident and they're looking for a spot. Now transit does have a couple of spots up here, you know, for folks, you know, doing business with them. But otherwise, in terms of using the path, right, the multi-use path, because that's kind of the other way in. There's not a separate sidewalk. That's, it's kind of convoluted, to be honest. Well, it is. The buses can't go through there. The big buses don't come under. The big buses will be off the other side of the street. Yeah, really, really, exactly. These are just the little buses. Yeah, yeah. So our foot folks will basically be coming into this sidewalk and then accessing either the multi-use or, you know, cutting through. Obviously not a. I would think you might want to put a sign here that said resident parking only. Well, all the parking you'll be, I believe there'll be signage at the actual parking that says resident parking only. So, you know, that'll all be signed. We need to do that. There are a couple of handicapped spaces in case you have a visitor who's handicapped is there a space or two here that they can get into the building somehow. Even a visitor. Yes, there are handicapped spots back there. It's going to be an interesting experiment in traffic flow. So nothing that says, you know, main entry or any sort of arrow on this sign indicating main entrance. Well, again, it's a one-way. So, I think we can certainly stick to that. But it's not. It's just a thought. It's a sign that says what it has to say. But then it's just like, where do we go? I mean, it would be more for people visiting than anything. It's once you've landed in your apartment. For instance, you know where they live, right? Let's open. I don't have too many incidents. Yeah, I kind of look at the sign as more of an identifier. So you have somebody coming, you know, to visit you for the first time. Hopefully you've told them that they need to do street parking. But in terms of just identifying where about the building is in general, you know, it's like, rather than just like, oh, that giant new building on, you know, Taylor, it's this building, you know, and then they'll need additional, like I said, information from whoever, you know, saying you need to park on the street. There's not, you know, visitor parking in the back lot. So we don't, I guess on one hand, an arrow would almost, I think, cause more trouble. I'm not thinking we have to do a little bit. You know, if we did have an arrow, I think more people would pull in and encourage, you know, folks to park back there. If they're not resident, it's back on the street. Yeah. Maybe it's just a thought. Yeah, no, no. It's a specific thing. No, it's a thing. Think about it together. I appreciate that. I don't think of it all in a way, you know. And this building itself doesn't have side bands or anything like that. There is a sign, a band on here that will eventually, they'll say, oh, your transit center, I'm not sure exactly what it's going to say yet, but we haven't applied for it yet. So the original plan was, so on the sign band facing Taylor, that was the transit center, and then on the band facing the river was where, the bike path. Yeah, the bike path is where we would have, but then we said, well, that doesn't make any sense. Because you can't see it? You're really, right. At the top of it. Yeah, I was sort of, and I sort of felt like it was an either or. I didn't want, just because those are kind of conflicting looks, and so it just didn't make sense for us to do the sign band. We said, no, instead, we want a good size, you know, a prominent sign out on the street that clearly says what it is. So we passed on having them. So you have enough glass that if you chose to, you could add something similar to that from on the inside of the glass? Absolutely. From the door. Or whatever, you know, whatever you wanted to say. I included some, you've got a full glass, and then you, I believe there's a daylight next door so we can move in. And I appreciate that. I will make sure we get on that because it's usually something I end up remembering. I think that's going to be confusing. I don't know what to do about it with signs because the transit center is really what's up front. Mm-hmm. And what you see, almost no matter how you come at the building. Yeah. And there's no sense in flipping the sign to the other side. Flipping which side to the other side. But that's the out. I think so. Well, I saw a sign I'd be like... Yeah. Department of Public Works would get all over that. There's plans to have an entrance, a small entrance and exit sign. That's on the city to, you know, do because it's their site. But my understanding is they're kind of quite a small... But there's a sign here that says one way. Yeah. So that people are interested. Yeah. Honestly, you know, we have lived with it for a little while and if we are feeling any for a different or additional sign that we'll come back, we'll have a conversation about it. I mean, it happens, you know, it's just, you know, just I think about how like you're saying people move around and what's clear and what isn't. You know, it's like a pizza to groceries. Exactly. Now let's start over. She shots as a sign out, but you can get groceries to whoever. Yeah. Jeff Bezos isn't doing it anymore. Yeah. Landing pad, yeah. Yeah. Any other questions, comments or suggestions? I don't know if they're an idea. See how confused people get in fact. Yes. That's not exactly a plan. As Alison said back to take your best shot at the beginning and see how it goes. So do we add in a contingency for something that's up front? Something, I'm sorry, is it an additional sign up front by the entrance? Or is it just going to be behind the glass? I think we would just do it behind the glass and that's what we're doing. Why are the traffic always there? What was that, Eric? The way the traffic always makes it difficult. Yeah, actually interestingly when the traffic comes in they won't even really even see the front of the housing lobby because it's the driveway over here. They have to go all the way around. But that doesn't go around there. Yeah. They'd have to go into the parking lot to see the entrance. Anybody just bypassing is not going to see there. It's they'd have to be in front. Is there any room for a sign on this wall or if you have to sign and then go by it seems like a sign on this here at point. I know, I understand what you're saying. The wall faces the driveway. To drive people to be like, oh, you got to loop around again and then go back. Housing straight ahead versus housing. Let me discuss it tomorrow at our job meeting. I mean that wall is stone which has already been all laid in place. I would need to put something on that stone wall. Yeah. Yeah. But again, if we have to do it retro, you know, we do it retro. Colleges lay out paths by just leaving the grass and then building sidewalks where people are walking. We can do that. Is this the truck that she is? It doesn't show up on this plan. What's this hill I guess? This little trash. It's right. It's, you don't have it on your plan. It's right next to, it starts right there. Okay. So, what is this? So, you're looking at this here. That's a transformer. That is I feel like that is what it got changed. Yeah, it did. What is the crack? The trash is, okay trash is right here. So that, that is the trash right next to the transformer. Yes. I think it just got flipped from two doors opening that way to this way. One door opening this way. Probably once we have conversations with in terms of, you know, access for them. So it's a short wall or fence. Is that, yeah. It's actually a fully enclosed wall. It's got a roof on it. To Eric's point, is there any opportunity there for a sign? I think if, if down street determined at some point they really needed to direct people in there, that might be a possible location. Options or adjustments of any kind. You can get some of the glasses. Like you said, given all the stall work and everything around, it would be a, probably a logical place to put, you know, to me further identifying signs inside the class. I mean, really a lot of the, you know, traffic movement signs that are in, what is essentially going to be public right of way. We don't care about as long as we know where they are on the site. Yep. I'll read down through the criteria for the signage. Preservation or reconstruction of the perfect historic style of the proposed projects in the historic district for its house and historic structure. Acceptable. Harmony of exterior design with other properties in the district. Compatibility of proposed exterior materials. Acceptable. Compatibility of proposed landscaping not applied for in this application. Prevention of the use of incompatible designs, buildings, colors, schemes or exterior materials. Acceptable. Location and appearance of all utilities. There's no lighting on that sign on the street. So not applicable. Breaking mission up and respect for view quarters of city and state house. Acceptable. Conformance with city skate placement and design recommendations. Acceptable. Compatibility with subject property and adjacent properties. Acceptable. Showed out obscures significant architectural details. Acceptable. Consistency and uniformity of multiple signs is not applicable here. Illumination not applicable. Penance and banners of individual letters of fixed painted during grave directly on the building of structure are encouraged and this ground sign at this location is acceptable. All in favor of the application is proposed. Raise your hand. When is your opening? September. Yeah, mid-September. One of your rockin' sign right above my name on the left there. September. September. I'm just going back to vacation. Thank you. Thank you. Cars. Kids love it. The next application is for 6th win place on our applicant Gertrude Prevost. Corrected location make Did you already get one? Yes. Introduce yourself essentially you want to use Gertrude. What was that? I sense that neither one of you are Gertrude. I'm our son Michael. I'm Prevost. I'm going to describe this for you. Okay. So a lot of this came to based on structural purposes. Was it a combination where there's also some water leaking in it. Yeah. The property above and head over to any well done in this class. So that is another issue. There's also structural as far as there's been some movement in some of the floor choice. So they're actually going to be supporting that and let them not slow as they're doing it. So the big area attached scope here for what's being done is to replace the rock wall with concrete foundation just on the driveway side. The driveway side which looks like this is north. Okay. Just that wall it was identified by Roger Brothers that that wall should be replaced probably with structures. So currently there I would say granite veneer I'm not sure how that's anchored if it is anchored bolted could just be water slapped on there. It's just on a ledge probably. Yeah. The ledge I think it's right on the stone wall back down. Yeah. Sometimes it's just it's it you don't even know it's strong. So really that's granite on that wall granite pieces are going to be set to replace them. Do you need to replace any of the windows for ventilation or light purposes? No. Okay. Just to get it away with the paint causing the water or anything else. Yep. So you can see that there on both of these images. And actually the back part which I just noticed I didn't even realize there actually is granite here that will be stalled as well. It looks like local stone probably very granite will be very stand-stand there. The same thing. But it will match for concrete. So it was last year into the last year. This totally finished one off of River Street as well. So confident in its work and I've heard from other concrete contractors that they've got concrete under all buildings for the last 30, 40 years. Yeah. Now we did include also because we were considering this but I don't think at this time that's an option because we were going to include concrete blocks. Now are they the textured blocks that have the look of stone? Yeah. So it would have it's not just your straight. Yeah. Now they would have a decorative look. Yes. I'm not sure exactly. I think the beaker would just set that on a beaker or something like that. Yes. And then they have a cap that they can put on top if you want to raise it up depending on the level of distance. Yeah. A flat top instead of a thin roof. Yeah. So the permit is good for two years with a possibility for an extension for one year a year. So do you want to keep this in the application as long as you can do it in the next you know you have to come back to me and you need an extension for a third year before the first two-hand period expires Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what we can do is does it say anywhere in here that it's a decorative probably decorative block just as replacement? No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. Yes. We haven't received a quote from Mia. Okay. So that's what I was kind of waiting for as far as I think this was thrown off. Is there any benefit structurally? No. It's just whatever I mean I think you're looking longevity-wise replacing this Rebecca is not This has been there keep Well, we had it done by who didn't come up and take a look at it, gave us a quote for $15,000 and I said that's the way he did half, which was only like $3,500 a year, couple of years before. Just a small portion of it so that it's concrete. It's not the best way to start off. Well, it's starting to sort of heat inside the box. I think he wrote a stone drain on side of footing in daylight into existing drain. So that's where I think it'll help with the demolisher. So it's coming from that back. So you want to give them the option of either rebuilding this or replacing it with the textured decorative stone or concrete block? This will retain it all off. This will retain it all off. So rebuilding with that is what you're saying? Yeah. Okay. No, no, no, that's okay. In other words, you have the option to either rebuild this. Obviously, if they got behind, you'd have to take it down and put it back. I don't think these don't change. Either dry-lay it or put it back with some mortar to reinforce it with some crystal and drainage behind it and keep it from moving or replace it, replace the option. Looks like the real problem with the wall is back. That's where it is. I don't think it's slowly eroding. That section of the wall, the rest of this is probably just about the way it was built. Yeah. I mean, it was great. It replaced it with that stone. All back stuff on it. Excuse me. But then it started to rain. It started wearing terror. It started to sink on the back. It started sinking in towards the house and stuff like that. That's still standing there. But the guy who did it, did the different cop this year. And he said it cost like $15,000 and that's unbelievable. It's too much. Like she said, you have the option for you to extend it a year. And then if you decide to wait five years or whatever to come back to that also. At least it gives you that one day. So I just said you have the option to rebuild the existing stone, retaining all or replace the wall with a two by four by two foot decorative stone. And repair it too. Because this front part looks okay. I mean, it never really was. Turn on the side a little bit. It's not as a lot of the stone. The guy used that to bring it back up. Instead of this. Down for where? The drainage. Like he said, call the city to have them come up and see if there was a water leak for his water. And he said no, the guy came up and checked it. And he said no, it was not the water leak. No water leak. They did some trails. We did the trails, the drainage and all the trails and stuff. To me, in the last three or four years, it's like a river going through my driveway. Trenches like that. So it would go down and stay away from the house. The Rogers comes up to do the repairs. They would say if you've got enough land on either side of the driveway, a similar situation. And on one side we actually dug a trench about it. And we just filled in the drainage piping for a stop. And it comes off the bank now. We put a layer of some storm. We had fabric that came through. But at the same time, you see water come off the hill and hit the edge of the driveway and it's gone. It just goes through. I mean, what we're having there? Because my neighbor, he flashed about this winter. He had that much ice on his driveway. He checked that ice. That's not fun. No, it's not. Any other comments or suggestions? Quick repair in there. If you repair the wall. If you repair the wall and you don't even need a permit. I just said here that you have the option either of the existing stone retaining decorative stone face concrete block. Sound good? And then the rest of the criteria to apply to the rest of the application. Preservation of reconstruction of the appropriate historic style of proposed projects in the historic district involves an historic structure, acceptable, harmony of exterior design, acceptable, compatibility of proposed exterior materials, acceptable, compatibility of proposed landscaping and unproposed here, prevention of the use of incompatible designs, buildings, color schemes or exterior materials, acceptable, location and appearance of all utilities and applied for in the application. Recognition of and respect for view quarters and significant vistas, not applicable in here. All in favor of the application. Either one of you can sign that way. My name there. Project. Thank you. This comes back to our office and will she be administrative? Thank you. The last application for 37 Berry Street. Here again for another one. Changes to the appropriate color scheme. So first an apology that we did not follow the proper procedure and when we made a change we did not, you know, notify you folks like I do apologize for that. We do better next time. So that being said, we submitted our new revised application and here to discuss the changes. I do some nice color copies this time. Combination certainly stands out. Well, and I think that these various copies don't do it justice here. So now you have it in front of you. So there's one labeled option one and one labeled option B. So the one labeled up. So first of all, the three colors are the same that that part didn't change. We're not introducing new colors. We're just colors are so option one was what was approved. Very difference is on the panels across the front above the commercial portion of the building. Those were originally supposed to be the Rockwood red and instead they are the shutter green color. So to me, that's the main thing that stands out. I think also around that front door it's flipped in terms of the true color in the door color. You can see one to the other real quick. You'll see they sort of flock to those two. And then lastly, I believe they were supposed initially we talked about painting the window actual painted a color. It's the way they came. They were not intended to be painted. I'll step there. I actually think having those panels on the corner of the dark color down rounds. You said that really grounds the building. Kind of distinctions, yes. Yeah, I think a little more pop was proper. I mean, I do not need to tell this group that. So is this the painter's got a lot of it or what? No, no, no, no, no. I don't want to know, not at all. No, the architect did give, you know, new direction. I mean, you know, I think, see if there's actually, well, that, you know, the date on the original, you know, 10, 18, 17. That's probably when we, you know, came to you folks for permission. And then here we are at 719. So, you know, a lot of times we're painting colors so early on in a project. You can't help but often go back and think, oh, I wish I had done it slightly differently. And I think this is one where we acted on that. But you know, didn't communicate that to you folks. I also was just going to say, and I don't think I need to tell this panel, you know that color is subjective. I mean, I appreciate your support, but there are people out there who think it should have been a different, but we don't know. I don't care what color you do, it's going to be somebody who doesn't like it. For the process, at least it's, you know, understood. Is the base painted? Mm-hmm. And that's the rock group? Yes. Is there any reason why you went? Actually, I'm not good at coloring. I don't make these decisions. Are you talking about separation? Yeah. I'm sure there's a further decline in separation for sure. Yeah, but I'm going to guess there's something about like tying the building here. I don't know. I'd be grasping and straws on why they didn't do it. It might be a difference in material, too. I know it is a difference in material. The upper part of the part, some panels, the green, you know, and the bottom is, like, I want to say, well, I'm not sure if it's concrete, but I know it's not these panels, because these panels were replaced, so I don't know if it's a little bit of a, I'm curious what you think. I honestly don't know. Could it also be an issue where as it's down there, it's really, really dark? You're going to get splashing. It's going to show up. I don't know. I don't know. I know. We've tried light colors. We've tried dark colors. It's so dirty that it's just, yeah. Unless you're going to paint it. Especially on my gray. Is that great by any chance down there? I'm looking at the lines on the drawing. Oh, glasses to see lines. And if I look at that, that lower panel on the, like at that relatively big corner. And the big one, it looks like, it looks like brick. Looks like brick. Looks like the size and shape of brick. I can't. Well, now I'm going to pull it up on my thumb. I'll let you do that. What's the address on Berry Street? 37. So I'm going to guess that's probably why. So you just leave it naturally. You don't want to paint it. Because the paint will fall off the brick with, between the salt and the weather and everything else. So that just stays right. Well, what would we do without Google? It's like painting. Any other comments, questions, suggestions, or, so you mentioned the window, but it's right. They certainly don't need to. I mean, we do sometimes, but I think in this case, they decided not to. Yeah, just curious. 20 years you're going to chance. So again, I'll read down through the preservation or reconstruction of the appropriate historic style. The proposed projects in the historic district involves an historic structure, acceptable, harmony of exterior design, acceptable, compatibility of proposed exterior materials with other properties in the district, acceptable, compatibility of proposed landscaping, not proposed, prevention of the use of incompatible designs, buildings, color schemes or exterior materials, acceptable, location of appearance of all utilities, no changing utilities, not applicable in the application, recognition of and respect for view quarters and significant investors including gateway views in the city and state housing. Acceptable, all in favor of the proposed change. Raise your hand. And again, sign the lower left here by my name. Is that okay? Is that okay? No, it's okay. I thought there was somebody. No, we took it. Okay. Thank you very much. Good luck with all your projects. Thank you. See you soon I'm sure. Has everybody had a chance to look at the minutes? I'll move them. Move them? Do I hear a second? All in favor of the minutes? Raise your hand. The minutes are approved. Anybody have anything else to add? Or do I hear a motion to adjourn? I'll second that second. All in favor of adjournment? Raise your hand. Meeting is adjourned.