 Thank you very much for this inspiring talk. We have a lot to discuss. I want to just show that clustering courses is my daily nightmare, actually with two kids, no? She has been in schools and work and everything. So thank you for the earhooks. So I'd like to call Abhimanyu and Ardan on stage as well, and Gregors of course, to discuss what we have seen. I think this panel will be more of a discussion between the theory and the practice and how we get close in between, no? So when I listened to Dian's presentation, as I said, I liked the way you structured why, what and how. Maybe we can start with why question, and if you don't mind, I'd like to open with Abhimanyu. I'm sorry, I'm hardly pronouncing your name, but I suffer the same thing as you do when I'm abroad. Maybe you would like to start with the why question and why we have to invest in kids infrastructure and services in cities, especially in major cities. Thank you, and again congratulations Dian and that beautiful publication talking about process guidance on how to design our streets. And when we talk about why, as we are also working on the streets for kids manual, the question is that they've formed such a large part of our society today, and the society that is going to be managing our cities and our urban systems going forward. And it is very critical that we start with them because the minute we design our urban spaces, our mobility choices, and our streets for our children, we've already made it full proof for the rest of the users on the street. So if you've designed for the 95 centimetres and their caregivers, you've managed to make your streets and your urban spaces and public spaces safe and accessible to the children, to the elderly, and to the disabled. And then a lot of the able users, like us, are automatically going to fit in and be able to use it. But unfortunately, we've been designing it the other way around, where we of course have been focusing on the automobiles and large concrete developments, and then we've been focusing just on the able-bodied human beings. So that is one big reason why we need to focus on kids. And the second big reason which Cecilia also mentioned yesterday was around thinking of our streets and our public spaces differently. We've often spoken about streets only as a mobility corridor. And that's what we've reduced it over these past few decades. But when we look back at historical settlements all around the world, streets were more than that. Streets were places to stay and play. And what we also like to say, they were also places for them to move and cruise. That's kind of the motto that we use at NACCO as we work on these projects. And can we bring that back to our streets where no one wants to run away from pollution and from being hit by a car, but they want to be in those public spaces to stay, to be able to play, caregiver with children, children with other children. And can the experience of mobility be more than just getting from a destination to another, right? You spoke about how in Tirana it's almost like an archipelago of schools. So it's only about destinations. And when we redesign these spaces for children, we make these places more of journeys, which can be jointly for, they can be safe and accessible. They can be comfortable and enjoyable. And above all, they can be educational and inspirational to these children. Work at NACCO and the Global Street Design Guide that you are developing and then maybe relate to previous presentations. So what we already have out there is a publication called Global Street Design Guide, which apart from this heavy book is also available for a free download. And it's kind of complementing to a certain extent what Jens spoke about. And as Jens mentioned, it builds off a lot of work that already exists from people in this room and outside, but it's focusing a lot on design guidance. So if we take the guide that Jens spoke about talking about the process, then this is the next step to it, providing design guidance. And along with the Bernat-Banglia Foundation, Pia Foundation and Luma Philanthropies, we're now working on a supplement to this. And we're creating what is the Streets for Kids. So it's a design guide which starts talking about the nuances of how to design these spaces, also building off the process on how to design these things. And a big part of this guide is to make it accessible to a wide audience. So we talk about informing our practitioners, being the first big thing, because it's a technical guidebook which can inform architects, urban designers, planners like us when we're working on streets and play spaces every day. A very important audience is the leaders. So it's about inspiring the leaders. So we use a lot of big case studies from all around the world where leaders can look to them for inspiration and be like, you know, if my neighbouring country can do this, so can I, because alongside there is a lot of healthy competition between cities and mayors that's happening today with the health of media and the guide is one of those tools which we feel can inspire leaders for healthy competition. And then finally it's about empowering communities. So with a lot of pictures, simple images and graphics, we try to make these documents available to people through of course stakeholder engagement sessions like we were hearing about before. So that they can also demand more from their local councilmen, from their mayors, from their planners and from their non-profit organisations or others because we often feel a lot of communities in various parts of the world are not even informed about the kind of simple solutions that are possible just around their street corner. And that's the audience that the guide is getting to us. Thank you very much. Arbaan, I'd like to continue with you. You're working at Bernard Van der Foundation as a research analyst and you've been leading the Urban 95 Challenge which was the first global challenge that the Foundation opened. So how do you relate to what Abhimanyam just mentioned? Do you think, do you see similarities between implementing in the field, creating tangible, designating, they are predictable, they are scalable? I think that's a very good question. When we started the Urban 95 as a strategy two years ago, we launched this challenge where everyone could apply for a proposal for projects and we selected the N26 project out of 150. And I think that was great to see what's possible and to see what sort of things everywhere around the world can help our families interact with the city. But one thing that I think also resolved as a reflection on the challenge is that many of these projects and many of the implementers who have great best intentions try to make something that's perfect in the city, which then doesn't translate to chances to scale it up or replicate it throughout the city. So there's little thought about the costs and the effectiveness and how this can become standard throughout the city. I think what you said, with little things you can do a lot in these streets and what I really also love about the presentation from Simon and Noganda is that from the start they've already thought about that these practices should at some point come at city level and scale up and spread throughout the city and keeping that constantly in mind from the outset from the project. I think we'll make it really strong and we'll give it a very high chance of actually making it throughout the whole city and not only in one hotspot neighborhoods where someone plotted a great little park or neighborhood project. And great, after listening maybe from theory to practice kind of slide you're at the practice end of it but also teaching here at Kadiraz. What's the difference the level of buy-in let's say from theory to practice when you get into the field? So actually maybe I will not address the why question as much because I would actually much more want to learn from these guys and so I actually want to understand a little bit more what the problems you have been running into while you're doing your work in Toronto and so I think if you already switched to the dialogue that would be, as you might prefer the approach because I think you showed your progress but I'm sure you have a lot of obstacles along the way. You know this question about how do you mainstream, we started with the document made in Vienna by a woman Eva, I can't remember her name now, she wrote it in 1986 and it's kind of it's very good you know but we're starting in 2018 from scratch more or less with these issues and the question for us is how do how does a city staff learn first of all to value this as work and then also to you know be able to get good at it and what we find when we speak with the city is that you know they're very they're very enthusiastic in word but they're extremely busy people from obviously the mayor all the way down to the kind of junior level urban planner is out of their mind with work because the city is moving so fast so how could we possibly come in there and expect them to kind of learn this whole other approach you know which is also layered on top of their new master plan which is also there on top of their new green action plan etc etc so what we've been that's kind of you know the the challenge is to really you know the mayor gets it and his his highest officials all get it and are super excited about it but then that's it's not just them it's everybody else as soon as they leave the room to really embrace it fully and and also of course enact it so our question for us is just you know we think the the pilot is such a good idea in Tirana now because we have to learn collectively how to build this and then once it's there to collectively understand what its values are because it's it again it's it's in the it's in the starter kit but that's the starter kit and so we you know so okay i'm asking because people also start yeah similar to repeat the mistakes that you know other people have experienced along the way and working but on that i think it's for us it's only the beginning so we will face a lot more challenges as we go on with the project but the first um maybe challenge that it's encountered is um what something is referring to working with the municipality there is usually very um high commitment from decision makers to to do and have a vision to do things that are in line with certain vision but then when it comes to practicalities of it it's very difficult and i think this this is our challenge in maybe providing the municipal staff with a toolbox and proper indicators that can be very measured throughout their work and action plan and this is i think will be the challenge in the future and trying to align this with the budget that they're trying to confirm for 2019 actually i want to go back to Jens you you showed the kind of escape from project to policy and you put all the steps in between but what else you think the implementers will need to actually pass from the project to policy well how can we support municipalities like Tirama and others around the world to follow all the steps actually from project to policy well i think projects are very important and i i'm also well i start also my career in in that way to build public spaces and then suddenly when they're successful you feel like it becomes part of a culture of a city it's in it's decision making but also in all these veins that public space becomes important and then there's also more awareness that financing dedicated for that from different sources and i think it also leads them to more capacity building that suddenly there's interest to also train people that then can take of that role in an in a city government to always play that role to build public spaces and i think it's probably here the same like you have probably in a in a government too little capacity at this moment to follow up on what you as a technician are pushing for and so i think it's through the project that you should try to find mechanisms that this is easier uh translatable or also there's immediate feedback possible that this becomes like kind of daily part of daily management in the city that's why i also made that variety of urban planning that it's very important to be project mine because that's where change happens you have to try to translate it to policy for example in policy environments where where you can you see like a sort of city governance suddenly say like we have to have open data observatories that's very important to have that name somewhere because it then means that there will be some kind of financing for this and some kind of technical assistance that clusters there and makes it happen and that's and that's the same with some things will probably also be translated in the land use plan of the city when in the future we'll plan that developers for example that are building these neighborhoods that are now have been built without any school that they will be mandatory to be built so it's very difficult in beginning but it's very very i think very promising that will lead to more structural change and that it then will be embedded into a kind of continuous culture of good urban planning ask almost of a question to Simon and Albanda following on the project to policy part of it a big challenge which we have seen after the guide as we have been working in various cities to take physical design into policy two big stakeholders that come in and uh need to be part of the process uh is enforcement because you can design the most beautiful projects and streets and play spaces like in a lot of low and middle income countries that requires this guidance uh unfortunately enforcement is very poor not leading to those projects being used that we all perceive the way they are and talking about perception the second stakeholder is media and communication uh a lot of these projects there's always someone who has something to went about it or car driver or others and that is what gets most of the media attention and they play a huge role in the success or failure of a project leading into a policy and its implementation so are those things that you already started working on in Tehrana or are facing and um all sort of games if there's something in the process guidance about engaging with the enforcement in the media well i i i also read your guides very very authentically and i think it's it's very interesting that it's i would say it's not just guidelines for technicians because it also builds up very carefully that if you want to make it happen that you have to have for example kind of platform of believers that are bigger than the end users and the technical expert but that it has to be media that has to have try to attract as much as people interest maybe the chamber of commerce maybe schools and so you have to be very clever into building that coalition and i am sure that is going to be also the challenge in Istanbul which is a super big city and so you have to be very clever i think to strategically use your locations but also like them to see like how you can use this to really have a lot of echo in the whole city it's part of alliance building and i agree it's not even on the media as Cecily also mentioned its academia its businesses and you have to convince many different actors in the city so that they also more or less say the same things in in their own environment because then it makes a difference not always when we say the same things and so on can you comment on that a little bit do you have unconventional partners and alliances in Tirana for example i would like to comment on the first point of supervision and monitoring the the design for the planning process and i hope that we'll come to point in Tirana where we have indicators policy indicators that municipality takes on in their action plan and i think some of the most important indicators are monitoring the work and the intervention related to IDC otherwise it's left to the planning part so we'll i will work a lot inclusive with them in making sure that in a year we have a package of indicators that we'll hopefully take on by the municipal municipality we have at the same time of an institutional coordinator that is interfacing with us as an organization and the municipality it's embedded in the institution and it's part of increasing capacities and in the future i think it will be the person that will communicate more closely with all department in the municipality on these issues and on the second point on communication our plan is to be very active in raising awareness on this on these issues publicly as well through social media or other forms but i for sure it's very important part of the i mean the mayor is very media savvy and so that that aspect he's very good at communicating the importance of play the value of children in society like that's sort of that work is very much done you know i think and it's very it aligns well with culturally it plays well let's say and i think so kind of you know our our goal though is to is to systematize those things in ways that maybe don't look as good on camera you know i mean some of these things are less visible it's not so bright and colorful necessarily and i think part of this part of this work is to ensure that you know tirana becomes more so but also remains kind of leader globally beyond this mayor you know i mean his his goal ought to be that this is a legacy thing so you know he changed the city no matter where he goes tirana will become and will remain structurally supportive of itc and that's that that will turn to enforcement down down the line i think the for now i think you know it's just sort of getting making public this notion that not everything is is a bright ball is a ball pit you know it's not ball pit world um it's it's something much more much deeper somehow invisible so that that's just that's a matter of time i think as well very good yeah i think you mentioned that yet you have picked 28 projects and that you sort of wanted to highlight that could you maybe were there any common that say threats in those projects why you picked them why they were successful or let's say what are the lessons we could like we could take once the guideline is there or book is available for them but maybe i want i would say more positively i tried to find practice that actually is not Copenhagen i think as i said yesterday we don't want examples of Copenhagen anymore and i really wanted to look at more examples in in middle income low middle income countries also of course because unicef works especially in these countries also maybe to emphasize that things are possible with new resources and of course there's a lot of uh and there's it's also a part of a part of innovation that social innovation working with communities and children that have time is something super valuable and and that things can start happening with little resources um and so that was a kind of filter for me um i must say like where i would honestly also say where you could do a deeper analysis is of course that you could look now to these projects like have they been upscaled i think it's also i think the comment from arino like you also are very close to a project that you initiate and that you also yourself wonder like how upscaled will they be so i would also be intrigued to see more like how it has been taken up into policy but i wanted to i would say it's also a start for unicef to make this book and to get into that area of talking with built environment specialist urban planners um but i think it's um it's also how a lot of cities that now look like very well planned have started uh with trying things out and it's going from waste management to better energy management it's also always incremental that things happen and maybe it's also i think it's also a critique to give to a specific i think there's still an attitude in development agencies that work internationally i don't know maybe you can also feel it sometimes to bring in um very high level solutions very uh for example in road infrastructure i think it's like big projects that are not always easily to define on a human scale and that it's it's actually not the way to go that it's better to also start small and and then embed them into structural urban management. I think in both presentations there's also a strong emphasis on the importance of data in the projects um but i think there's often a lot of data that these municipalities are already collecting and they are often stored only in the department that has collected them and and and so there's not spread between departments and there's a little awareness of what's happening throughout the city and i think an interesting example is one of the cities that we also work in Boa Fista in western brazil is where this hits the policy level there they've directly what they've done is looked everywhere globally what were the listed indicators um that are relevant for children in cities and then check for all those which ones they've already had data so complete data um intentory of their city and actually resulted in a short list of about 40 indicators that are very relevant and were already collected by mixing and matching existing data of distances for characters with children to the nearest public transport and these kinds of things and now through a dashboard this entire city and all its departments will have access to these kinds of data so i think in addition to data and projects i think there's a whole different layer of how these cities work and interact internally between departments and i think it's not only about data it's also about the the human side of interaction there and i think that's also particularly influenced in Tirana i have to know um he also has a chief childhood officer or something that is an advisor to the mayor and what i'm aware of it's the only city globally that has this i think in addition to Tel Aviv so um but maybe it's also an interesting thing to yeah yeah it's a it's a very interesting position um you you hear it a lot that you know in order to to push an agenda which may be new inside of municipality it's great to have a person who's full-time job that is so they can that's what they do and in Tirana we have that and so this person is so far has been working on gathering data and you know she sort of goes around to all the departments every desk is like do you have data no do you have no and like sort of then then the GSD students were working with her a bit as well and they were going to the national level they were going to the parks department you know every and and slowly over a period of seven weeks they they really together gathered what you're describing which is data that sort of everybody had but never shared and um that's been an interesting process because uh through that she also meets everybody in the city and now it's kind of a figure there so um you know there we are we're also um very interested in sort of leveraging that role for her to be the sort of public face of uh us and so we're we're the think tank um sort of in the background doing the research etc etc she is embedded in the municipality it becomes she becomes the face of ITC planning um on behalf of the municipality in a way that's much more um sort of believable than if we were just if it looked like the municipality had hired some outside who's like telling them you know no it's she's there and she's part of the team uh and for us that's going to be down the line really important in terms of communication i mean she should be in parks with moms uh you know twice a week and on tv too you know at the same time so like really just becoming this figure um who is indispensable for everybody else in the municipality if you're working on a pilot and you need to borrow the book she has the book maybe or whatever you know everybody should have a book at least everybody has the url but but she can become the resource she has i ideally she would have an office with posters on the wall sort of all the resources and she becomes that kind of hub for this information that everyone um goes to visit a lot hangs out lunchtime lectures you know be really cool you know the best panel is where the panelists don't need a moderator but i have to intervene to the chat is going very well and in order to balance a little bit the the main domination of the the panel i'll give floor to the audience and priority to female voices in the room and be strict about question if i should repeat yeah yes Jens you started talking about uh educating uh planners so this has been also and since we are at kader house and we have this dream of and hopefully it's not a dream anymore it's a reality of setting up a master's program starting next semester what other academic institutions are in unisex network and similarly to nocto and similarly to tirando we heard about harvard and also actually to artan like who who are the players academically um who are taking up this flag right in my case it's um it's actually very simple until now unicef hasn't invested in the urban planning or let's say also in city management so there's no there they have a lot of affiliations but then it could be with health health health departments in university so i don't know if that's it's a it's a logic step to work them with the same universities um i think what we we have to do is to set up like regional um whole of expertise probably because you want to work globally to also figure out seems like in our organization most um uptake will come in southeast asia so we should look into that area to find a good university that is in a way already linked with the children's development that can also provide this support on urban planning and and also latin america is also interested but i can't already say to you so i'm also very open to hearing suggestions from anyone about that so where are we at uh macto as we were producing the global guide and we're working on the streets for kids uh we don't have any official tie-ups with any educational institutions with two institutions that we leverage a lot of resources from is of course columbia university and the john hopkins school of public health but something which is a very core part of uh was a part of this guide and we're working on that for the streets for kids is that it's not a guide that four of us sitting in a new york office produce strife and that's very important so we set up a global expert network um and when we produce a global guide we had about 142 people from 70 cities in 40 countries who were part of this and the spectrum was equally distributed between practitioners people from city government and academicians so we had global players from different academic institutions who were feeding information reviewing this on a regular basis in order to help the guide become as local and as contextual as possible and just one of the things that comes out of uh in order to make these guides and guidance in terms of process and uh design very applicable to these universities what we've realized is to promote strategies and not projects that's one of our big learnings from working with the academic institution that what works is when you suggest a strategy rather than a project any other question from the audience it's a good crowd for us today i should say i was wondering yens show a piece on air pollution i think that's not been covered all yet in this conference and um well cecily mentioned just the first job that i think in in london was related to air pollution um which yet it's not a subject very much addressed in the urban planning for families and children i was just wondering in the guidebook that you've been working on did you also find particular niches or angles that are different from the children's perspective to the air pollution challenge globally that we could have a special additional role as in this sector well i i think air pollution is particularly uh that the child lens regarding air pollution is particularly very powerful and because it's very clear that they are the ones that are most vulnerable because they're small they breathe fast the lungs are used and breathing is bad air and so there's a lot of problems with development in the future life of the child um and you see also i think globally that the leverage that then schools start to have as as places where also pollution is measured that this really uh result results in a big wave of of fans a lot more media that jumps on this and that's only politicians have to react so i think supporting measuring the air pollution communicating that with an open data mechanism with good scientists also because of course as always this discourse of like is this scientifically true and we have to reanalyze this is very very important also in project in a third there's also very good academic partners of that thing that's important then what i think that's important as a plan are then to really show your value that is that the solution will have to come from urban planning and transportation planning because the making the statement or making that information communicated is very shocking and very successful but then it starts also the question like we have to act very quickly and so i think there might be at a specific moment a problem that we have raised enough awareness in that for example it's very high on the political level and the mayor wants to act but then the mayor also expects that there are people trained people that come with solutions that can be implemented this year actually and i think that's also where there's a big responsibility i think for urban planners to not only get the why question and be very much focusing on that this is happening but also come with good solution and like like parlor school areas and that schools are also for example implemented in situating in a way that it's easy to make areas that are that have no pollution if you'd like to ask questions in Turkish it's still physical i just said hello how should be the starting point in all these child friendly actions be for implementation i mean for example as a professional what can we do or the non-profit should be make the action by going to the municipalities or institutions should have some um initiate along this i mean how can we start an action are you addressing to someone specific or in general whoever wants to who'd like to start so i will start with this question i think it's very important and one way to do is how Tehran i was going where you have the political bind right from the top and you start from political will and you build strategies projects and policies around it the other way as a practitioner what we push architects engineers in all the cities that we work with is start introducing a little bit of this in every project that you do so the next time you are designing a neighborhood introduce some wider sidewalks introduce fun play spaces introduce a place to rest and to enjoy it the next time you're designing a street add a bike lane to it take away some space from parking give it to space with children in their caregivers and that's also a small way to start spreading this in the physical environment in an everyday project because sometimes when you want to sell this as a larger thing that we need to do this for children it might take time but you can start tomorrow by the next project that you're doing and introducing just a few square meters of space dedicated to children and caregivers and that's the way it can go the more they achieve the more they will be willing to to run in this actually yeah yeah and I think but when engaging the community and looking at and at the needs do think about the different ages and the different needs for example and yet it's a slide you saw also the different needs of younger children and as they grow older and it's interesting to understand that children from zero to five years old they can't be involved in community engagement process maybe under four or five with younger often not and and the gatekeeper for them going outside is a caregiver they decide if they go to the coffee shop around the corner or or if there's time to go out or not and just thinking about when are these caregivers available are they available through the day where are they available so so when doing community engagement also thinking about different users and where you might find them and how you can actually collect those I'm a huge fan of the temporary street closure I think it's it's an extremely powerful thing and of course you know it depends on where you are and how you get your city to do that for you but the the experience of having no pollution but also no noise from cars is something that I think we don't often consider but especially if you can have it take place over a large area the kind of silence that can be achieved in the middle of a city especially in a weekend but even on a weekday can be really really transformative and gives a very tangible idea of a possible future to people who live on a street and I think that's really really important when when you talk about changing a city beyond planning beyond plans beyond renderings beyond any kinds of description to be able to place someone inside that space and have them experience it for themselves there's kind of no way no better way to to explain what what could be point out that they actually have an NGO in the room that does that maybe there is a moment and I'm sure our keynote speaker will also touch on that yeah Jens the thing has been said I think it starts with changing the way you start the agrosis I think and to also get people children involved to also use use their way of viewing our situation is and I feel like for what what I think is very very important is to also change participation or more mold participation processes into urban planning I feel sometimes our participation processes are set up to talk with children on very abstract things to ask them for example what is your ideal world etc and that's very important but you can also connect them with maybe very current tangible streets shape designs that are happening daily everywhere in cities and then it's much more tangible than you can also engage into the production so that really they will own that space and also see the vision that they have realized in their childhood I think that's something where I feel like there's sometimes two different worlds about participation children and urban planning that can be easily connected in the name of the health of our difficulties, what can happen to us, what can you give us, because we do some work at the university, we have work with the municipalities, the local authorities, I think we can show you what we can do ahead of time, I think your suggestions are the second, what can be our suggestions regarding playing games on the streets that do not come out we have such a thought, but how can we spend our lives, what can be your suggestions, thank you the apparatus can be kind of directed quite quickly especially in terms of like road works those are there are and this is this is the you know the kind of public participation processes around changing a street are not very strong or present and this is the this is the other side of this so you know it's it's super important to to make sure that a neighborhood and a community is sort of on board with this obviously and that I would say is sort of the length of time that we don't fully understand at the moment once it's once once the green light is given it can happen quite fast especially with what we're talking about in in the zones outside of the core it's not like there's any expropriation going on or you know it's like the the the streets are quite wide the kinds of the kinds of measures that we're talking about are are fairly quick so the ideas um but to make it sustainable I think it's important not to focus on ad hoc projects only that's why by the end of the two year which is the time length of our project we want these measures to really be integrated in the municipal work and I think that's the only way to make it sustainable over time it's something that they want to work on and work together in building something that remains hopefully there in terms of guidelines standards or regulations hopefully question more specifically around designing of play spaces at dead ends I think two parameters which we need to consider the first is the context right what is around that dead end yeah are there homes is there a school is there a park is there or is it dead walls with nothing around it and what are some of the immediate elements are is it a dumpster or a parking lot like a lot of dead ends being because that's going to play a role and the second is you know Alexandra mentioned yesterday about eye on the street concept so it's about understanding that in different times of the day at that dead end is there some form of a caregiver even peeping through a window are there grandparents around or is it mostly a community which only comes to sleep back at night and during the day when kids are playing there's nobody around so the eye on the street so the people using the space and the place itself the context will play a role in designing the dead end places thank you I think also in response to these dead end spaces is the the powerful use of tactical urbanism to try things out and see the impact and and if people approve of the use in general in the community use of streets which are always used by bars and just a couple of examples for example one in Sao Paulo where all shopkeepers in the street were very much against closing the streets because they were afraid for a lot of revenue but whilst it was tested with paint and temporary lock offs and actually their revenue went up because more people stayed for a longer time while there was a better use of that space for particular times and I think these kinds of forms tactical urbanism get really really useful as a method of testing something out instead of a permanent way of in itself but as a way of testing something everyone last question before coffee three questions all right hello well about five or six years ago there was there were huge protests here around vaccine which is a public space and this happened in many different cities for example and at the same time research shows that for example in the united states the cars are not something so much desirable for the youngsters and living in downtown something that they are starting to give better back again so my question for you guys is do you feel that there is a kind of movement in society or a will in society towards what we are advocating for here how do you see that society is receiving the messages that we're trying here to to give or to communicate it's more demand for a better quality of life in general and more well-being in the environment so I'll give it a try as a moderator in some of the cases like temporary street closure we don't even think that it's feasible we never saw it like in front of my house that how the street could be closed and I could take my kids out to play on a Sunday we didn't experience this but I'm sure once we do we will never give up so there will be more demand more examples we can create there will be more demand for this I believe and I hope it won't become a big crash like a huge demonstrations and so on but an incremental change maybe even from within institutions anybody just to cite an example from New York City here is not the best reason for a demonstration but something which has been a very powerful tool since the time of Mayor Bloomberg has been when there were victims which were identified by the city government who had lost their children in car crashes and identifying those families to make a case to their neighborhoods their communities in the city at large played a huge role in allowing for the city government to what they call breach of privacy by putting in cameras everywhere for enforcement installing traffic calming measures and other things and a lot of that was piggybacked on organized protests to a certain extent or sharing from the victims of parents who were lost their children I'm a big believer that society can be shaped and that I know sometimes it sounds weird but if you see urbanization doesn't induce automatically neighborhoods for example you know that they have to be shaped so as an early pioneer you probably understand but it's also like you know that there's a continuous process of development happening economically socially culturally cities so developing an urban culture with children is also very important to make also them believe that change can happen because I think it's a disaster that a lot of children maybe doesn't see when they become adolescents and huge that there's no change happening and also the leaders that they have maybe the parents that they have so it's very important to always try to be part of that change one last question that yes thank you very much I'm wondering if you are working with psychologists at all in your projects and if so how do you position them or more importantly what do you expect from them I think as much as psychologists work with urban planners urban planners work with psychologists but let's see how they actually say something about the behavioral economics workshops that we held last week in Istanbul yes there are there are areas that we can include psychology because how you shape the space is sometimes affecting the behavior of people and there's a new area we are all learning but behavior change is a long-term issue and it's not an easy one so I prefer to respond if there are any answers yeah directly I think our work is very much informed by the research that has taken place in the world around us and through our networks we're constantly being fed the kind of the basically the state of the art of the understanding of this work and and I think there's a lot of you know early childhood development science embedded in it we don't we didn't work so far with the psychologists you say we worked with public health people in the fellowship that was sort of the main focus of the of the first fellowship but we definitely are very interested in kind of cross-disciplinary sharing and it's definitely important strategy we're quite actively looking at the behavioral science for example in the Netherlands there is a lot of green space and a lot of services while the the least well off within society make the least use of them so there's there's a big piece there of behavioral science why people don't make use of the services that are actually there and in that way we're trying to also incorporate that in projects and models by for example putting triggers and signs in the streets with questions about about nutrition for them signs in the supermarket about about healthy foods or signs in the street and as industry projects with signs in the streets with ideas for parents how to interact with that child as well as on their journey for example we're games pointing games these kinds of things so I think there's there's a lot of potential in looking at how people behave in public space and and and how they perceive the services that are available and I can also mention just getting to a little bit of detail maternal depression as mentioned yesterday is a major problem that we face especially mothers with young children and green spaces areas where they can go themselves and take their children is an important factor to decrease depression and to cope with it so I think there's quite a lot of intersection between these two areas and we should come more together with the psychology or put together urban tenors and psychologists in the same room and see what happens here okay I said one last question but yeah another last question I think there's no There's a very simple answer, do we need an alternative? Yesterday Emily Silverman, Emily are you here? Yes, Emily Silverman told me in Tel Aviv, the head of parks who heard me speak a little time ago about risk and we got talking about sand and he went back to Tel Aviv and told his team to start bringing back sand to the playgrounds in Tel Aviv and there are now 50 playgrounds in Tel Aviv with sand. So the question about sand, it's often, sometimes sand is a problem but often it isn't a problem but you can make sand work and there are risk fears, yes there is a myth, there are myths about sand that you cannot possibly have sand it depends, maybe in your neighbourhood and your kindergarten it may be difficult but I'm saying don't just accept if someone says no you cannot have sand question, explore, maybe have an experiment and try a sand pit for a short time and see if there really is a problem with cats, maybe if there is a problem with cats you can come up with a solution sand is wonderful, we need more sand to come up with