 Good morning everybody. Hi. Thanks for being here. My name is Kevin Cary. I'm the vice president for education policy and knowledge management here at New America This is actually the 20th our 20th year here at New America We are celebrating our 20 20 years of creating and incubating the next big ideas that address the nations and worlds toughest problems all throughout 2019 And for I would say the majority of those two decades. We've been working in collaboration with Washington Monthly magazine on a variety of projects including their annual college guide copies of which you can get in the back if you don't have one already The goal of the college guide has always been to in many ways Find the important parts of American higher education that people don't appreciate enough If you're here in Washington, or you read the newspaper, there's a lot of attention to the foibles of some of our elite colleges and the people who really really want their kids to go to them And there's some good a great article by and kim's going to be one of our panelists today Looking at a kind of a new and fresh angle on that whole set of issues and Our staff here at New America have been spending the last 48 hours analyzing the new version of the higher education act Along with a presidential campaign that is probably more chock full of Interesting and provocative higher education ideas than any in memory So it's an important time to be having this discussion We are New America itself and also Washington Monthly and and this Effort is supported by the generous support of the Lumina Foundation In Indianapolis, and I want to acknowledge their support And we're going to hear this morning from Chauncey Lennon from the Lumina Foundation who's the vice president for the future of work and learning that's a broad mandate And he's going to be providing some more introductory remarks And then we'll hear from my good friend and longtime collaborator Paul Glastres the editor-in-chief of Washington Monthly So again, thanks to all of you who are watching online Thanks for being here Chauncey Good morning As Kevin said, I'm Chauncey Lennon I'm the vice president for the future of learning and work at the Lumina Foundation And it's my privilege to welcome you all here for today's event The Lumina Foundation has had the honor of supporting the Washington Monthly college ranking guide since 2009 Now for those of you who are familiar with Lumina, it will come as little surprise that we have invested in this project for the last decade Lumina seeks to build a stronger nation through equitable high quality learning opportunities for all And for the last 10 years the foundation's work has been driven by the goal of helping 60 Of all adults in the u.s. Attain a post-secondary credential by 2025 For Lumina reaching this goal is not simply about hitting a numerical target It requires that we both ensure that these are credentials of value credentials that have a labor market payoff And that we close the equity gaps which keep far too many african-americans latinos and native americans From accessing credentials that are part of a pathway to successful and stable careers The goal is also focused our strategy at Lumina on adult learners Of course, we want so-called traditional age students to succeed But when it comes to meeting the nation's talent needs we bump up against the fact that it takes 18 years to produce an 18 year old And as an aside as the father of two kids who are over 18 and one who's not quite there I'm not even quite sure that 18 years is enough to produce an 18 year old But you get my point To build a strong economy We need far more people with skills than the current k12 pipeline will provide So it's critical to invest in helping adults adults with some college and no degree a group that comprises To 26.5 million or 50 percent of all adults ages 25 to 64 And adults with a high school just high school diplomas Which is 44 7 million or 26 percent of adults So that's over 70 million people Who we all need in the labor market with more skills and will all benefit from the opportunity to get credentials of value Needless to say the guide is a powerful tool to help reach all these goals And put the spotlight on the plurality of institutions committed to helping the vast majority of students Earn affordable in-demand degrees And as one of the embarrassing rare resources available to get essential information about these institutions Into the hands of students who constitute the largest slice of our post-secondary student demographic And there's one additional goal we share Changing the way policymakers think about what constitute equality in higher education In fact, I think this is probably the thing I and many of my colleagues spend the most of our time at lumina working on And after reading the full issue I was struck by the distance between the portrait of higher education painted by the elite media and sort of just in circulation And the reality depicted by the rankings and articles in the guide now for this crowd That's not a particularly deep insight But it made me think about Why this version of what quality higher ed is has such a powerful hold on the imagination of the media And many other elites So I want to end by quickly offering up some thoughts about three of the most enduring problems with popular notions of what a good college or university is And how we can all challenge them So first I would argue that we live in a world where the popular definition of a good college or university What the popular definition is has a lot to do with the concept of uniformity College is one kind of place to use paul glastrous words exclusive Wealthy and prestigious that serves one kind of student affluent white age 18 to 22 Yes, there are exceptions that break the rule But often those examples only reinforce the idea that what of what the norm is And it's hard to imagine a better tool to enforce this homogeneity than the u.s. news Rankings as are painfully demonstrated by the countless stories of the hold the rankings have over the choices that leaders of college and universities make The washington monthly guide makes plain the reality that most institutions are gauged again to quote paul in the task of helping lots of non-wealthy students Earn marketable degrees at reasonable prices Produced plenty of scholarship and scholars and encouraged students to become generous and active citizens What's more? They are not all coming at the challenge in the same way Some are trying to be more diverse by including low-income students Some are creating programs that are more affordable flexible and connected to occupational credentials And some are developing models designed around the needs specific to adult learners Yes, uh as the guide is described. It's a different kind of guide But it's also a guide to the reality that there are lots of different kinds of institution and programs in post second education A point that we often miss Second, uh, there's the notion that what makes for quality education is timelessness The elite model is good in part because it stays the same Never mind that elite american university the elite american university is actually a relatively new invention All those quads designed to mimic oxford and cambers do the trick of making us think these institutions have been around forever Providing education that has stood the test of time as we see in eric cordeles's article The reality is that colleges and universities are changing in multiple and profound ways The demographics of their student body are changing the use of technology to improve advising persistence and completion curricular shifts to compensate that's education And new models of financing and in the piece by mary ellis mccarthy and debba brag We see how the new degree programs are emerging at community colleges To meet the needs of adult students The best way to counter the idea that quality implies timelessness is to continue to report on how change is happening And how it makes post secondary education better for more people and therefore for all of us And finally our popular our popular model of quality and higher education Implies that our higher education system is coherent that it makes sense for everybody And while it certainly has made sense for some students The reality is that the model has never made sense for the students who couldn't afford it Couldn't fit it into the realities of their lives or didn't see it as a match for their interests We need to get better at understanding that part that part of what quality should mean Is that we have different institutional models offering different types of credentials serving different student interests I think the trend we are seeing of the rising importance of post secondary programs May help on this front taking the focus off institutions and putting out to the specific programs of study Could help show that people want different things out of post secondary education and a healthy system Meets those needs while ensuring quality However, I think the tendency we see recently of some people to say that ba's don't matter Or that the ba is over. It's just another example Of a reluctance to acknowledge that we're going to live in a world with seemingly contradictory ideas about what people want Out of post secondary education So the sense that there's one model of what a quality higher education is that model That model is unchanging and is the right model for everybody is going to be with us for the foreseeable future But it too will change it will change because it's relevance to the world We live in will continue to diminish Our job is to continue to build and support the students educators and institutions that are building new models of higher education And telling their story through the washington monthly's college guide and other platforms And let me end by saying that on behalf of the luma foundation We look forward to working with all of you on this important mission. Thank you the mic to paul. Sorry. Thank you. Thank you chauncey We've uh, we've been in the same room together, but haven't actually said hello So welcome. It's good to to meet you. Um, thanks for those Great framing remarks and kind words I want to get us straight into the discussion. So no remarks for me other than to introduce our panelists First will be an kim a contributing editor of the washington monthly a senior fellow at the progressive policy institute Uh, and the author of the forthcoming book by the new press entitled Abandoned america's lost youth and the crisis of disconnection She'll be discussing her terrific story that chauncey Referenced or kevin referenced on the pre college racket in the current issue of the washington monthly Second will be george bridges. He is the sixth president of evergreen state college in uh, olympia washington Which is the number one masters university on the washington monthly rankings Um, it is also where my son adam just began his freshman year. So george. Take care of the boy Dr. Bridges previously served for 10 years as president of wittman college in walla walla washington as well as dean and vice provost of uh, undergraduate education at the university of washington and uh, also Is a has served as a president a professor of sociology focused on incarceration and criminal justice Finally, we have Cassie Fibolo, do I have it right febilo? Fibio, Fibio, excuse me. Uh, uh, cassie is earning a phd Uh at the in communications at the university of texas at austin But also his coordinator of the texas votes program Uh, uh, which is part of the net strauss institute for civic life at the university Her non non part is an organization's work Increasing student voting Is unbelievable. Uh, you can read about it In the story by daniel Block and the current issue of the washington monthly. So with that in mind, i'm going to invite and to start us off Um, so good morning everyone I think you'll be hearing a lot today about the many good things that colleges are or should be doing for their students My job this morning is to throw some cold water You know part of you know redefining what a good college is Is to shine a spotlight on the many sort of not so good things that a lot of so-called good colleges are engaging in And that is what I do in my article for the washington monthly, which is titled If I can get the clicker to work, right? technological challenge this morning It's called the pre-college racket So what I looked at are the growing number of college summer programs aimed at high school kids And what I found is that these programs really do exemplify a lot about what's wrong with the current business of higher education They're not about benefiting students Rather, they're about making money They're about profiting from school's brand They are about exploiting families anxieties about high stakes college admissions And they create false hopes for many students who have really big aspirations So in the good old days high school summer vacation was just that you if you're high school student Maybe you got a job at mcdonald's you mowed lawns You spent a lot of time at the pool But nowadays it's all about the so-called summer experience What you do now really matters as far as college admissions And so that's where the pre-college programs come in So these programs have actually been around for quite a while But they've really exploded in number in sort of the past decade or so as college admissions have become really cutthroat Families are looking for whatever edge they can and these prestige stools schools continue to really have this Totemic significance for a lot of people So today all but one of the top 40 schools in the us news and world report that one exception is dartmouth Offered some sort of pre-college summer program for high school students So these programs have a lot in common First they have a similar format you get one or two weeks or more living on a college campus You take classes a day you get fun stuff at night So for example, if you do the ucla program, they will take you to disneyland. They'll take you to the beach They'll take you a baseball game The second thing they have in common is that they are all crazy expensive So for instance a two-week program at harvard last summer will set you back about $4,600 Four weeks at brown is about $7,000 and that's not including the plane fare to get there and pocket money And so the third thing that these programs have in common is how they're marketed Either implicitly or explicitly as a way to get a leg up on admissions This is a problem, which i'll talk about so For example This keeps coming back to this screen. I don't know why Here are some screenshots from the websites for summer programs at uh johns hopkins columbia and stanford As you can see it's pretty explicit and uh implicitly If we ever see it these programs hint at some sort of you know, selectivity They often have admissions processes that look an awful lot like the real thing You know at harvard for example, they ask you for the $75 non-refundable application fee You have to turn in the council report. You need transcripts Stanford same thing application fee transcripts up to four recommendations work samples So now here's the bad part these programs don't actually deliver the kinds of benefits the families think that they're getting You know schools will even tell you that these programs don't matter for admissions if you ask them What these programs are is it's about making money Including from kids who cannot afford it and i'll tell you more about that in a second So first of all though, why don't these programs help? I talked to about a half a dozen admissions experts for my story And uh, here's what they said eventually um These programs are essentially passive experiences. You know, you're not going to be able to tell a lot about a kid Just by the fact that they go there And they're not selective despite these elaborate admissions processes that make you want to think that's the case They really will take anyone who can pay Um Just for an instance three thousand kids go to stand for summer programs every year That's nearly double the number of undergraduate freshmen that the college admits These programs are also typically run by an extension program or even by an outside vendor So they're not even close to the real thing But what is real is the money these things are money making machines And the real reason these programs don't matter is that admissions officers actually do know that So for as one example, you know, I write in my article that in 2015 Brown University made about six million dollars from its summer programs According to an article in campus newspaper and about 70 percent of that was pure profit This would all be fine. Maybe if schools were simply going after the rich kids, but that but they're not They're also targeting families who cannot afford it, but who think that they are making an investment in their children's future So for instance, a lot of schools offer up fundraising guides complete with Sample letters so that students can hit up their friends and family for donations Here's a sample letter from brown as a matter of fact. You can see it's a form letter that you can kind of fill in The other thing that these schools do is actually encourage kids to run GoFundMe campaigns So if you search pre-college on the GoFundMe website, you will find more than 4,300 appeals from students And if you read these appeals They will really tear your heart out Kids just get unbelievably excited about having gotten into one of these programs and they really believe That going to one of these programs is going to make a difference for them Just as one example, I will conclude with the story of Kirsten whom I write about in my piece Her family Tried to raise about $5,500 for one of Stanford's pre-college summer programs Turned out that program is actually run by a private company called Envision. So it's not really Stanford at all Her family ended up in debt to pay for this experience And as far as we can tell Kirsten did not later get into Stanford. She went to a local school I don't doubt that there are many many many Kirstens out there every summer And so long as these kinds of programs are allowed to continue, I don't doubt there's going to be a lot more Well, thank you and um, that was discouraging I'm going to bring some uh, some good news to all of you I'm very pleased to be here. I want to thank, uh, certainly New America Washington Monthly and Lumina for, um, creating this opportunity for me not only to brag about Evergreen but also to talk about The future of higher education as we see it and the way in which higher education is changing even at schools that May not think they need to change And it's a privilege to come here from Washington state We refer to our position in the northwest as the real Washington And this this place as the surreal Washington But I think we all know that Washington state has always been a Home for innovators and new thinkers whether it's a place where microsoft starbucks amazon and certainly cosco have reimagined technology coffee commerce And have had a profound impact not only on our region of the country, but certainly certainly the nation It's also a place where 50 years ago Our state leaders at the time imagined a new form of higher education And against the traditional backdrop the backdrop of a traditional flagship institution like the university of washington And a great land-grant institution like washington state They saw something different. Um, they saw a school that would be free of many of the obstacles and barriers that educators at the time believe impeded learning that, um That impeded direct engagement with the complexity of real world problems and That had instruction that marries Academic coursework with rich learning experiences completely outside of the classroom So evergreen's mission as a small liberal arts college public liberal arts college on the shores of pujit sound It's always focused on learning that mimics and embraces real-life complexity We layer academic disciplines On one another in programs of study focused on some of the most challenging Social and global problems. We have no academic departments. We have no academic majors And as some of you know the Undergraduate experience is comprised of courses taught by teams of faculty from different disciplines So at this moment, um, well not quite at this moment students are still sleeping at this moment They are studying systems of sustainable agriculture taught by a mathematician and a botanist Another group is studying poverty in america with a poet and a sociologist Looking at the written and spoken words of those in poverty to assess and feel the impact Of the gross economic inequality that pervades our country And another group is a group of native and non-native students studying indigenous arts in education actually doing um the kind of carving and and painting and Art creation that those in the salish see the area of the northwest do As part of our relations with the many local tribes in and around the northwest So we also understand that a deep part of learning that occurs And must occur really in higher education requires students to leave classrooms And to enter into relationships with businesses Government agencies and non-profit organizations and for credit experiences It's convenient very helpful to us that we are in the state capital So their experiences at least our students experiences Enable them to work in and for the state legislature To assist local schools and to work in conservation organizations Planning for climate change So all of our students have these as options And they can work with faculty to create their own paths of study And paths of study is a key theme through all of our work Among many of the societal issues that Is pressing our country that is of resonant to our students and to me professionally Is helping currently and formerly incarcerated individuals Connect fully with society and increase the chance of contributing to the greater good In our community And so evergreen has a series of programs not just one That works very closely on these issues that really is engaging Engages and inspires our students to think more broadly about the role of higher education In contributing to the larger society One of them brings federally funded science research into a local prison Enabling and empowering the residents the inmates the prisoners there to participate Fully and completely as research assistants Another brings our students to youth correctional facilities Enabling them to mentor and work side by side with young men and women who are incarcerated We also have a fairly large number of individuals prisoners who are former prisoners Justice involved individuals who are currently fully enrolled in evergreen's classes And they bring a depth and written richness to our academic experience That really isn't met by any other group And i'll end with a story that refers to a seminar i taught last fall That was on the crisis of mass mass incarceration in the united states and imagine this 15 students two of which were formerly incarcerated a local police officer For another group was for a single single single parents who were returning to education Three were a military veterans and another four or five were students who had just graduated from high school and were engaging in college for the first time The conversations were vibrant and respectful And the positions that were represented were vastly different And i guess my measure of the success of the class was when at the very end of the experience the quarter the term One of the students who brought at the beginning of the class the most radical left approach to understanding our justice system came up to me and said Thank you for leading the seminar. You have totally confused me And i knew i'd been successful we had been successful because it was a cross fertilization of ideas That challenged his preconceptions of the work. So when i think about what makes a good college I think of four attributes First it has to empower students to be focused on them and be student centered This means being student ready, which many colleges aren't Second there must be academic preparation that ready students for the complexity of the real world Challenges that we as a society are facing And that they need to learn from disciplines Vastly different from one another and to be able to weave them together Simultaneously Third a commitment to serving the greater good the greater public good We need to not only welcome and support students from underrepresented populations But to also appreciate and take advantage of the assets they bring to our classes to our learning to everyone's learning And finally a learning that links theory to practice day in and day out such that it isn't purely academic But it links to real world experiences that enables our students to change These are attributes that I think every college must have if it thinks of itself as a good college But serving the greater public good is much more than simply providing an education to those who can afford it. Thank you So hi everyone. My name is cassie phibio. I am the program coordinator for texas votes which is a non-partisan student organization at the university of texas austin that Registers and turns out students to vote on our university. We're sponsored by the annette stars institute for civic life Which is hosted within the moody college of communications at ut which is a really unique place where civic engagement institute to be housed um Our story is a little different than most successful voter engagement programs on college campuses At ut I am the administrator who oversees voter engagement I'm a 20 hour a week graduate student, right? So like really if you want to put that into perspective most teaching assistants And I are on the same playing field, but I oversee all voter engagement at our university um Which is a really fun challenge for me as a first-gen college student being scrappy is how I've gotten by for a long time So in my fifth year as a phd student. It's like really come in handy My students are amazing. So when I started five years ago, I had just one returning student And about two weeks into my tenure I was contacted by the foundation for civic leadership and said that they had a small grant for us In order to do our work Which came at a great time because I was also hearing that maybe I should just kill the student organization And do other work for the rest of my time at ut um Since that moment of receiving that grant and learning how to first start creating a campus plan We have been planning day in and day night and then producing the results at our university um First the first thing that we did was create a coalition of student organizations Who do and don't do any kind of political engagement? So um an acapella group We had our indian dance pop group come out and perform at one of our events recently And then they pushed out the news that everyone needed to be registered to vote And we think that this really diverse group of students Who are saying that voting is so important on our campus has been one of the huge reasons why we are successful at what we do Um, additionally at that time, we just have been growing as a student organization. So I'll get to our numbers in just a second. But what we have found is that 2016 we had about a 15 percent increase in turnout 2018 from 24 to mean we had over a 35 percent increase in turnout Yes, it's awesome And it's all student driven. Um, and I think that is powerful People want to institutionalize civic engagement and on campuses where that works. That is an important goal But we can't ignore the campuses where that isn't happening and isn't accepted as the route So at ut We have some friends who are national partners One of our first friends is the institute for democracy and higher education at tufts university Led by nancy thomas. They are the ones who put together the reports for us to see how we're doing These reports go beyond just our voter turnout and voter registration rates They tell us how our students are turning out to vote by like their area of study That's how we learned that our stem students are turning out about at about 10 lower rates than the rest of campus, right What does that mean that means that in our coalition building? We have to target our stem student organizations more our student engineering council is now one of our most powerful partners on campus It also means that we can take this data and inform Different like we found out that men are turning out at 10 lower rates than women Then we start talking to our fraternities. How do we help those students turn out to vote? And also, you know, give a little clap for our women who are doing a great job Um and Using that data informs how we move forward um Then we work with friends like the campus vote project naspa Um as well as on campus democracy challenge to create a really inclusive and very in-depth voting guide But when we're making this voting guide, we need to think of a few things And that really comes to what are the state laws in the state of texas? There are a lot of laws about voting and registering to vote in texas that people in other states will never come across So we have to become the experts because it's important that we are in fact Teaching our students how to vote and making it seem easy If you think that voting is hard if your peers think that voting is hard You are not going to turn out to vote the research supports that so we have to do as the students who are supporting this work Is make it easy We are the ones who go through the hour-long training every other year in order to register students to vote just for our county We are the ones who help find polling locations for our students We are the ones who make the impossible to read ballot language easier for our students to read I joke. I'm getting a political communications phd, and I don't know what the ballot initiatives actually mean And so it's important to make it easy. We acknowledge that it's hard and for our politically savvy students We can talk about that but the reality is if you want your students to turn out to vote You have to make it seem easy even if it's not always that easy Recently we have been getting recognition and it's been very exciting So this picture is with our state senator who is fantastic and support student voting Kirk Watson and he actually was giving our student organization A joint resolution from him and our state representative Recognizing the work that we do on a night that we were staying out until midnight to register students to vote Up until the registration deadline for this November election And so I think that like that's a really great encapsulation of everything that we've done as a student organization And that we've done to create An environment of voter engagement across our entire campus because it's not just about Your students who are government students or history students or political communication students We want all students no matter what they study or what they believe to turn out to vote and we are seeing it again In these really amazing numbers So, um, thank you Yeah Thank you all for your remarks I'm going to ask a few questions the sort of moderators prerogative and then open it up to the audience one of the Interesting things that cuts across all three of your Remarks is the difference between An institution that is really focused on engaging the students as you find them And an institution exploiting the students as you can right? This this is kind of a just a theme that you see in higher education. And so I want to I want to ask Each of you Ann with you How do you fight against the Tendency of universities so in the in the case of these of these um of these college Pre-college programs There's a huge market for this people are people think that This is doing them some good and I imagine some Have that experience right and and but on the whole Um, these can be very damaging. How do you get the word out? How do you get across? To folks that this is not a good program That's a big question. Um College admissions counselors are part of the question part of the part of the solution, of course But I think some of it has got to be how these programs Are marketed and there needs to be potentially be a little bit of intervention here Because any other product would be regulated in some way about truth and advertising It would be extremely helpful. I think if all of these schools were required to say In very large print very high up, you know, these programs don't matter for admissions We don't look at these programs if you go to them or these programs are not run by the university But by the corporation, right? So if you go to this, you know the pre stand for pre-college site that christen kirsten went to You've seen very tiny print by envision the vendor that's running this this program is not affiliated with sanford law in any way But you need to dig through like three different web pages to get there and the print is in six point type So There may need to be a little bit of external pressure on these schools To regulate how they market these programs. Yeah, maybe the consumer Financial protection bureau or something like that. Yeah, right Cassie in yours in the story that that daniel blocked it about you Uh, it makes clear that the texas legislature has made it particularly difficult to um Do what you do to register students and to get them actually to the polls um And and yet the harder they worked of more successful you guys seem to be so explain that to me Give me some examples of of what the legislature has done that make get students getting to the polls more difficult So there are certainly rules in place that are harder for college students have to be very diplomatic because everything we do is incredibly nonpartisan um So for example in order to register someone to vote you must become a volunteer deputy registrar That's an hour-long training that you have to do on at the end of every even numbered year um, and so It's a thing. It's only good for the county that you're in. Luckily. Most of our students decide to vote on campus Which makes my life a lot easier And so we learn that role. We're in a very friendly county. So we are very good friends with our county officials I work incredibly closely. Um, I was texting our county official yesterday about something And so what we've done is we bring those trainings to the students I'm now a volunteer trainer outside of all of my other obligations and We do those trainings of students so that Individual student organizations can then do these Register students themselves and I think that's a really good example of okay We're making it happen. Luckily students want to do this. I have four pending Request right now for trainings, which is great. I'm like, yes, we're understanding it And we do trainings with like communications council with our residents life And so finding the people who want to do those things and making it easier I think is a really good example of how we Have worked around some of the laws of the state in order to be successful in that manner Because most states now have online voter registration and we just don't so well, you know, I Say one more thing that in texas It's legal. It's ill. You cannot use your student ID As as a form of ID for voting, but you can use your hunting license Your gun license gun license. Yes. Yeah George um You said that evergreen college evergreen state college has been around for 50 years and it's got this remarkable model for educating that sounds to my ears like Exactly what all the best Studies of college learning say we should be doing in the classroom And it sounds very hot and innovative and it's 50 years old Mm-hmm Obviously the model has taken some time to get it get the word out. Um, why has Why aren't more universities doing? I I heard recently when I gave up some remarks at a place about Evergreen and my son going there a bunch of people who really know higher education said evergreen has the best Um student Evaluation system or among the best in the country. They don't have grades instead the professor's right Evaluate of essays of the students, right? Yes, and um here are your strengths here are your weaknesses and if you didn't Do all the work up to par you lose some credit and you have a chance to Make it up, but it's like tougher than grades and yet it's not grades Absolutely. It is a model that I think is very impressive and having taught at six different kinds of universities and colleges Over the course of my career. This is by far the superior model But it's intensely the laborsome Having talked this seminar. I realized at the end of the seminar From my this is my first time teaching at evergreen I'd write narrative evaluations of each student. I couldn't just give them a grade And I thought this is going to take time. It takes energy So first it's labor intensive second Most colleges and universities can't do what we do because of the impediments the structures of the institutions themselves Academic departments have requirements and have faculty responsibilities to teach this course every other year every other term And try putting a sociology department together with a biology department To teach the impact of climate change It doesn't work It's too expensive and and it's very hard to cross fertilize departments when there are rigid departmental structures So part of the challenge I think for most schools in doing this kind of work Where you're literally bringing faculty together to argue and weave together disciplines Is institutions they simply don't have the resources or the structures in place to do it evergreen was designed that way And built that way and has operated that way for 50 years. That's stated. We are changing We are changing in ways to respond to the new wave of students the new generation of students And being student ready as opposed to the expectation that all students are college ready Is a daunting cultural shift particularly for a faculty Because they tend to teach Many tend to teach the way they were taught But it's a different generation of students with different expectations with different backgrounds and life experiences And so part of becoming a student ready college to accept the students you have Welcome them and appreciate their assets Means that you must understand the impact of their backgrounds their learning experiences And what their needs and expectations are of you so It's a fascinating model, but the model must shift as Society is shifting and we are doing that but it is A steady commitment to focus more and more on students their needs whoever they are That they are ours and our job is to ensure that they're successful as best we can I think that's about as pithy an explanation or a stab at What this gathering is about which is sort of redefining what good is we've really kind of wrestled with how to Where we think the conversation is going And the this idea that you I forget how you put it you you that the college needs to be student ready Not the students need to be college ready I think that that really sums it up because You know the the expectations in this economy The demands of this economy are that more or less everyone who graduates high school needs to have Some kind of post-secondary credential to have a shot at the at a middle-class life And it's no longer possible And I think what's changing is the demand of individuals of students of their parents that hey My kid needs a college education and I don't want to hear you say well He just didn't make it or she didn't make it I want you to find the roadblocks and And make sure this student has every opportunity to to achieve it I think Dwayne Dwayne Matthews of Lubina Said it best everything about that How does he put it Everything about college should be easy except the learning learning is hard, but everything else should be easy And Cassie that's what you've been trying to do On the civic part of this and again part of the definition Of good college to me into the magazine into new america Is not just You know work ready But civil ready ability to go out and participate in the democracy as we are expected to do so I think at this point we ought to open it up to you folks in the audience We would love to have your questions and please Wait for the microphone. Tell us your name and your affiliation A lovely lady right there Hi paul. I'm shannon brownlee. I'm a former new america fellow I'm now the senior vice president of the lounge institute, which is a small Health care think tank and I have a question for dr. Bridges, but first go gooey ducks. I'm a banana slug Sister college, um No grades Uh, my question is what impact do you think these kinds of rankings have on the way college presidents and administrations Um Think about their own institutions. Do they have a real impact? On on how colleges behave how they how they may change their Admissions standards or they may change practices. Do they have a real impact? And i'd like you to you know, tell me what that impact might be in your conversations with other presidents and your Experience as a president of other universities. Well, big question. They do have an impact I'm not sure I can speak for all college presidents. I'm pretty sure I can't Nevertheless, we do consider them as If nothing else a way of describing who we are but rankings One lives with the rank and dies by the rankings and so most of my colleagues college presidents We read them. We wonder about them and we Try not to rely on them. I don't think they change From in most cases how we do the work of leading an institution. I pray that they don't But at the same time I would like them to reflect The rankings to reflect what we actually do and what our students experience That's what's most important and it's a bit of a tragedy that as as paul and pointed out And and's and's work certainly shows That many of the rankings reflect nothing more than the wealth of an institution Not what the student experiences like or not what the students become after they leave And that's the tragedy of these rankings. And so I'm very wary of them. We're delighted of course with the way washington monthly Evaluate students not because we did well, but because it makes sense Given our work as a public institution with a commitment to serving the greater public good I'm not sure I've answered your question, but I do many a state government builds into their strategic plan Right for their university systems Reward systems and efforts to go higher on the u.s. News rankings In one case a college president's got a bonus If that president Rows on the u.s news college ring more than one occasion. So Our reporting suggests that they that they very much do I would like to think that they don't and i'm you know evergreen, you know is a I think a I don't want to say outlier, but it's a crusty You know refuse nick when it comes to bowing down to a lot of the nonsense that Guides These things and I think I think it's changing I think that the you know Other rankings have come on board not just ours There's a lot of pressure from parents and students against the insane costs of universities there is a a lot of Pressure from politicians who are having to foot the bill and So I I think there's an opening now for a more democratic vision of what universities should be And I think one of the fun things about doing the Washington monthly rankings with kevin is We hear back from a lot of universities Who don't normally get the spotlight shine shown on them Saying oh, not only was this a great morale booster, but it helped with our board of trustees It helped with the legislature. It helps us make the case for doing the right thing Which is serving the students we have not finding us a better sort of student So yeah, I do think they matter a lot This gentleman over here, please Jim saying question for Miss kim How do the programs you talk about fit in was things like RSI at mit and nsf used to run summer programs for students And I notice for example that sing why and and futan have both copied the rsi and iit also So they seem to be very popular around the world. Are they popular here? Um, so you're talking about programs that are genuinely selective and often free. Yes. Yes. Yes right Young Yeah So it's interesting because mit actually tries to distinguish these programs that they offer That are highly competitive actually and free for the students who get in With other programs out there. In fact, if you go on their website, it actually says Many students many summer programs will accept people who can pay Our programs are different because and they do target a very particular population like minority minority students who are i achieving So part of the challenge here is is harder for these programs that are genuinely good To rise above the crowd in the sea of other programs that are maybe not as good It says something about the mark it says something about the market for these programs, I think And I think it says something about the deliberate confusion caused by elite schools that are offering these programs Hoping that they'll be mistaken for an rsi or some of these other programs that are out there For example, I think like rsi Some parents this a lot of them don't you know a lot of them don't Um other questions Yes Hi, great panel. I'm catherine fish. I am with the all-in-campus democracy challenge and we're a non-partisan nonprofit that supports about 500 colleges with increasing their student voting and democratic engagement work Cassie is a champion and we work closely with her at university of texas My question is for dr. Bridges and cassie I'm interested in hearing kind of what you think college presidents should be doing To increase student voting and kind of support their staff and students and becoming active citizens And cassie from you i'm interested in hearing about what you kind of wish your president was doing or has been doing to support your efforts Thanks Well our schools are vastly different. We have 3 000 students. Texas has three million students 5 000 The role of the college president at a small college is very different than that at a major research university I engage with students all the time that is one of the joys of my job And so we talk about these issues that stated every college president I talked to is If not mortified very wary of what will happen in 2020 on our campuses across the country because as we know campuses can be the the beginning point of Of social unrest and change and and protest activity voting I I have really applauded cassie's work and your work for engaging students in a political process And um and thinking about going back to our campus um tonight This is something that I want us to do more of on our campus And I can certainly be a voice and uh inspiration for that work Evergreen students have minds of their own and um and so I may make um Inspiring speeches and they they will do something else So it's always a challenge to build relationships in ways That ensures they understand that we as an institution are supportive of engagement And that they find the ways to engage their most constructive Um at ut as I was saying I I am the pinnacle of administrative support at our university for voter engagement I think that's like the first issue right um a graduate student who hopefully isn't there for any longer than the end of this year The choice of phd like um shouldn't be the one carrying that institutional memory forward I think that's a huge issue. I'm like sitting here thinking about writing a document for the person who replaces me And I'm like oh I mean That's a lot and I go above and beyond what is what I would ever want to ask a graduate student to do in terms of time money Resources and so I think the first step is finding a full-time person To be doing this work And I think secondarily something as simple as a supportive email that went out to all students saying Today is the last day to register to vote for this upcoming november election. The most we received in 2016 Or no 2018 was an email saying that today is the election Voting is probably a good thing. I mean, that's not exactly what it said but that was the the feeling about it and then Please don't respond violently if things don't go your way That was kind of the gist of the email that went out to our campus And I was just like I was devastated, right? I'm like I'm doing all of this really difficult work Our student government president sent a campus-wide email that I don't think he was allowed to be able to do Um saying voting is good. Please go vote But uh and so something as simple as that to know that like your president is even on your side Would be fantastic, but I also have to recognize the fact that we are a state school Our board of regents is appointed by our governor Look into that if you want to and And so I think that I Personally wouldn't don't feel like I would ask a lot because I know the situation that the person that our president is in But I would ask that we have someone who can maintain institutional memory for what we're doing on campus And like a supportive email would just make me so happy Uh, thank you all so much. Mike Bartlett national governor's association. I'm gonna ask a very self-serving question Um, and this is really for the entire panel and the moderator too What were your all's advice be to governors who are grappling with this issue and really trying to push their institutions to be Student-centered and focused on success and long-term outcomes. Uh, what would your advice to them be? Well, I can speak to what I told our governor Um, as we signed the bill last spring I mean what we need to do is to ensure that students Whatever their backgrounds Have wraparound supports that enable them to be successful which means an investment in new forms of student services and key key and here training for faculty and new ways of teaching new ways of learning Development knowledge about the brain science and how people learn and what Memory spans are and how does that change the classroom experience? So we've invested thanks to some of the progressive views of of our governor Many of the ways in which we think about students support them in in their very first year And subsequently and then our faculty enabling them to rethink how they teach how they learn and what new skills they need Um, I think in the state of texas when it comes to things like voting, which is where my expertise is Um, and I think that the statement can go across all expertises is Actually take a chance to listen to students from like many of the universities within your state Texas is huge, right? And we have many universities and many of them are amazing listen to them and what they want We had students writing bills about getting new polling locations on college campuses that never got to see the light of day Which is like remarkable that they're literally writing bills And then I think secondarily from my really like voting centric perspective Like let's do things to help students vote california just passed legislation on student voting. That is amazing. I wish We could consider that in the state of texas My advice to governors would hinge on something that was actually covered in last year's college guide on the importance of counseling The article that I wrote kind of pinpointed to me just how important marketing is by these so-called good colleges and there is no counter to that and So many places are disinvesting in college counseling to high school level There needs to be a countervailing force against the u.s news rankings the marketing that all these colleges are pushing on students So that colleges so that students really know what is the right fit for them and have a full array of information available And really only counselors can provide that Yeah, I would I would say the governors The great thing about higher education and higher education reform Is that it's pre ideological, right? We don't really know What a republican or a democratic Reform agenda is like least voters don't right? There's some Differences and if you look around the country Um, yeah, j inslee is a great innovator, but so is mitch daniels in indiana a republican so is governor Is it hasson in in in tennessee who did the the first big free community college program so You know, this is a really an area where Ideology and politics doesn't have to come into it. What has to come into it is a recognition that The old ways of that the old ways of doing things of Focusing all of your effort and money on your flagship university That has the football team and that all the lawyers that you know, you know in the big firms went to That is not how you provide the education that you need for your citizens going forward And that no no no organization, right that makes money in the private sector says to itself You know, let's just ignore two-thirds of the possible customers here and if they can't find their way, you know let's put a Hazardous obstacle course between us and the cash register, you know between the customer and the cash register nobody does that only higher education So it's really a different mindset that says every american Not shouldn't just have a chance to go to college, but it should have a very decent path to getting a degree And that is it's just a different mindset in a different sense of Of of of that. Um, we had a lady over here that had a question and I wanted to get to you Um, we've got about a minute. So if you could ask your question quickly and we're going to get it in before Uh before lunch The executive director of the president's alliance on higher education and immigration and thank you for being a member My question is building on this conversation is that to be student ready You talked about the need for wraparound student support And cassie talked about the need for a full-time person And this gets into funding both first public colleges and private colleges As well as to be fully engaged and student ready is also to recognize the need for engagement Which can lead college leaders into a murky area between trying to be non-partisan And open to every everyone and at the same time being clear about the values and importance Connected to the educational mission. How do you navigate that? How do you navigate the financial sustainability? The the political issues the confusion about what it means to be non-partisan and engaged I do not have a one-minute answer for that But it's a great question and it's a question. Um, all of those in public institutions Struggle with it's a struggle I I was originally going to write my dissertation on literally what does non-partisanship mean Just to like put into perspective my question is still kind of related to it And and I think that non-partisanship frankly looks different state to state, right? Um, what I'm allowed to do in texas Um, it is partisan to go on the record saying whether or not you support online voter registration Right, you have to know your state to be good at being non-partisan And sometimes it may seem detrimental, but I want access to every classroom I can get in To register those students to vote so we don't do advocacy for that reason We advocate for anything that benefits students Bottom line I can I can I can do that, but other than that It it's dark water So, uh, I don't want to be the person that stands between you and lunch. This is the program. There's uh food in the back Um, please help yourselves. We're gonna take about 15 20 minutes So probably you're going to want to bring your food back Uh to your chairs and then we're going to get going with the second panel at uh in about about 20 minutes, right? Yeah, thank you Uh, we're out of applause for the panel, please Policy program of new america She's a veteran of both the u.s. Departments of education and labor I don't know anyone who's done that and so she brings a particular Knowledge of both the higher ed part of it and the vocational and skills part of this important issue And she is the co-author with her colleague deba bragg of a terrific story Called escaping the transfer trap in the latest issue of the washington monthly. She's gonna start us off marie house Thank you paul and thanks to everyone for for coming today and again Thanks to the washington monthly for another great edition of the college guide So i am actually going to now introduce someone else, but yes as paul said we are going to be moving in a little bit to Um a series of discussions about how to some of our higher educations policies and programs that were designed to help students Get through college and we're designed to help uh States and the government build good colleges are very much out of whack with where our how our economy and society have developed over The last several decades and that we need to do there are some great opportunities to fix those policies and programs But but we need to hear about what those would look like So we're going to start today by hearing from grace goddai Who is the editor at the who is an editor at the washington monthly and wrote an excellent piece about the federal work study program Federal work study is one of our signature student aid programs It's also sort of a darling of politicians. Nobody's against federal work study But boy is that program sort of under leveraged and out of whack with the needs of students and institutions today So grace do you want to kick us off? Thanks for the introduction So earlier this year There's a controversy when it came to light that harvard was using federal work study money to pay students to clean dorms In other words, they were getting a federal subsidy to pay low-income students to clean the toilets and rooms of other students And for the students doing the cleaning Their job counted as part of their financial aid package And the controversy pointed out some major flaws with the federal work study program The first is that a disproportionate share of the money goes to schools like harvard private four-year institutions with big endowments that tend to educate wealthier students And far less of it makes it into the hands of students at public four-year universities and community colleges And the second flaw is the types of jobs that are available for work study students At a time when students are struggling to make the leap from finishing college to a great first job Work study is not really being leveraged to help them with that Instead it makes available kind of a smattering of on-campus jobs Which may or very well may not relate to their interests or career goals in any way When work study was created in the 1960s as part of lbj's war on poverty The notion of working your way through college if you got work study was actually pretty feasible And by the 70s the average work study award just about coverage covered average college tuition But since then as we know college tuition is skyrocketed dramatically And the college going population has grown more diverse and less affluent And now many more middle and low-income students are going to college But are often taking on one or two or more jobs to cover costs And at the same time Work study awards have shrunk because congress has not increased the budget to keep pace with inflation So students these days get an average award of about $1,500 And as mary ellis alluded to kind of the distribution of funds is really whacked out Because more than half of it goes to these schools That got in right at the beginning of the program and have continued to be kind of grandfathered in an ongoing basis Most of those schools are elite private schools and they don't even enroll that many low-income students So that's how you could get say An upper middle-class student at nyu a private school getting work study while a student at a nearby public school A cuny might not But while work study will probably never go back to actually covering tuition Research shows that there are two big reasons we should want to expand the program The first is that students who are given work study are more likely to graduate And one reason for that is for students who are going to have to work either way Work study gives them access to a job In in place of a job off campus that might be less predictable less flexible Maybe like being a server at a restaurant, which could be harder to kind of keep pace with coursework But whatever the reason the striking thing is that work study has a larger impact on graduation rates than some of its Much larger financial aid programs like Pell grants The other place where work studies potential is being overlooked is helping students get ready to start high quality jobs when they graduate Because while students from wealthier backgrounds are able to spend their summers doing Unpaid internships and expensive cities and building out their resumes and making connections Other college students aren't able to do that And if work study is modified to emphasize Helping students find jobs in their field of interest either on campus or off that could really open doors And if it were possible for students to use their work study money more flexibly safer periods of full-time employment or over the summer that could also really help them Perhaps the best model for this program would be to model it after the co-op system like They have at northeastern university There many students do six months stints of full-time employment while they're undergrads And they get jobs kind of it related to their career interests And according to the school Half of northeastern students who do co-ops get jobs from their job offers from their co-op employers And more than 90 percent of students have a job or enrolled in grad school a year after they graduate But to unleash the potential of work study Congress needs to vastly increase the program's budget Right now the total is only about a billion dollars, which is a tiny fraction of federal spending on higher education And as a result many of the students who would benefit from the program don't have access to it And this clear bipartisan support for the program and many of the reforms I've suggested Including from the trump administration, which makes it somewhat of a unicorn in dc So it's not as sexy as something like universal free college, but it's got something for everyone to like It encourages work it prepares students for jobs And it helps them actually graduate. Thank you Well, I just want to share a few thoughts on on the article that paul mentioned that I wrote with dr. Deborah brag who is here in the audience on called escaping the transfer gap And this is a piece about Some community colleges in washington that actually deliver bachelor's degrees Okay, they deliver bachelor's degrees and feels like health care and education and business and critically in the seattle area in it Right. So while the piece is about some specific schools and programs and students some of whom you're going to meet here in just a minute Our goal with the piece was to really highlight. How is a country? We're really under leveraging our community colleges as a system and set of institutions that can help Get more americans to that finish line of a bachelor's degree So I always I always love talking about this concept of, you know, community colleges delivering bachelor's degrees Because a lot of times when you when you mention it to people you get this sort of instinctive almost knee-jerk reaction Of like, oh, no, they can't do that. They don't they don't do bachelor's degrees and it's true, right our Community colleges, we also call them two-year institutions Deliver associate degrees and they also deliver a lot of other stuff certificates and many other things But the one thing that we sort of understand that they don't do is deliver a bachelor's degree That's what our four-year institutions do. They don't deliver them very often in four years But but there's this sort of clear demarcation so Why is that why why don't why do we have that demarcation and what purpose is it serving and And I think that that's a really important thing for us to revisit because similar to what grace was just describing about the federal work study program Some of the assumptions and conditions that made that all make sense when we created our community college system Aren't holding as much today. So just very quickly if we go back in time when community colleges were created They sort of had a dual purpose One was to sort of enroll students right out of high school who maybe weren't ready either Academically or emotionally to go straight on to university They didn't know what they wanted to do or they they needed a little extra time to do some exploration So community college was a place where they could take some courses and then transfer Into a four-year institution if they wanted to complete that bachelor's degree So the whole idea that this was a stopping point and a place to kind of polish people off These were our junior colleges. They were also called bad at that time And then on the other hand there was also a place community colleges were a place where you could go to get Degrees and certificates for jobs It didn't require a bachelor's degree and they still are very much that and so this is where you can get Associates degrees in nursing and accounting and and other kinds of you know shorter degrees associate degrees or certificates If you don't need to get a bachelor's degree So those are two things that community colleges do they continue to do them. They're very important But some things have changed since we created this system of community colleges And that are putting a lot of strain on that system two quick things are that Many many more students are starting their higher education in community colleges because they are Affordable and they're accessible and they're nearby in fact 40 percent of undergraduates today are enrolled in our community colleges According to surveys of community college students upwards of 80 percent of them hope to finish a bachelor's degree But here's the here's the here's the problem is that that transfer system doesn't really work very well In fact, it works quite poorly Right according to the data from the national student clearing house less than a third of community college students who enrolled in 2010 Transferred successfully to a four-year institution and of those who successfully transferred only 42 percent completed their degree in six years That's 13 percent of the starting cohort again As I said around 80 percent of students report that they would like to finish a bachelor's degree Those numbers are even lower for african-american native american and latinx students who are also overrepresented in our community colleges So we've set up a whole system that's designed around this two plus two you start here But you finish here And the problem is is that journey from the one institution to the other is sort of up to the student to complete And it's very difficult to do okay Some states are better than others but in general students lose a lot of credit often when they try to move The other big change is that a lot more jobs require bachelor's degrees now You know when when we created community colleges There were a lot more jobs out there that you could get with just an associate's degree think about nursing for example You can continue you can still become a registered nurse with an associate's degree But increasingly colleges or hospitals and health care providers are looking for bachelor degree nurses and bachelor degree nurses are now kind of the Being set as the kind of standard for the field right This is true in health care in in in across many fields Including tech right it i mean you'll hear people say that you don't need a bachelor's degree To get a really good job in tech and that's just not true Okay, that is just not born out by the data and ask anybody from seattle and i think they'll tell you that So our society has changed we have a lot more students going into community colleges starting their degree there We have not figured out a good way to get them to the finish line Seamlessly and the bachelor's degree is more important than it ever was before so That brings us back to this question of like well Why can't a community college deliver a bachelor's degree or is this like You know chiseled into stone somewhere that they're not able to do that are the faculty at community colleges So different from the faculty at a four-year public university are the facilities so different that they really can't do that And the answer is really no that What we're seeing in places like washington and florida is that they can deliver very high quality bachelor's degrees And they can do that in ways That allow students to start their their bachelor's degree out of community college and finish it there And so let's just think about what that means for students That means that a student can again begin and finish at the same institution without having to to move over to another institution And find their degree that transfer process is not just bad because of all the credit student lose students lose They also have to learn a way around a whole new institution create new relationships with advisors and counselors You know and often in an institution that is not as organized around their particular needs as adult learners So at new america with our partners at the university of washington We've really been digging into these programs in washington and florida and trying to see you know Is there some other Part of the story that we should be holding up. You know, is there some where did the downsides and things like that? So we'll be and we're not seeing them frankly, but we'll be publishing more of that research in In the next few months But in the meantime what we wanted to do with this piece was really sort of put a face on these programs of Who are the students and who are the institutions and what are they doing for the communities where they serve? So we're going to hear from those folks right now. So i'm going to ask the panelists to come up Um, and we're going to have a little conversation around federal work study and community college bachelor's degrees Okay Oh, no, I guess I don't do I just keep using this okay Present that okay. Good. How is everyone? Okay, so i'm going to do a couple of quick introductions You you've heard from grace. Could I an editor at the washington monthly to my left? I have melissa curry who is a program manager storyteller and producer at microsoft and I have To her left joys dr. Joyce hammer who is the vice president for instruction at centrilia college And used to be at the state board of our community and technical colleges in the state of washington We're getting a lot of represents The state of washington did not pay us off for this edition of the college guide, but it is truly the better washington today There's no doubt about that. Okay. All right. So melissa I want to start with you because I had such a great conversation with you when I was out in seattle about your experience at Green river college. Um, I will say this when community colleges start offering bachelor's degrees They have to drop the word community from their name which seems crazy But but green river college is historically a community college Can you tell us a little bit about how you got there and how you got from there to microsoft? Yeah, um, I was a casino dealer for 10 years and a single mom. I had him right out of high school so college just kind of got delayed and I had always intended on going back and But just got comfortable and stuck with what I was doing and um got laid off in 2012 and decided to Leverage that as an opportunity to go back to school My son was in middle school at the time. So Green river was close to his school. So it made sense to go there. I can drop him off at school go to school myself and then Come back. I had the flexibility to you know, take him to sports and go to his activities and stuff So it was just the best option. Um, I got my associates and it networking and had planned on transferring to udub and Getting my bachelor's there at some point, but I knew I was gonna take a break and go to work for a while That didn't happen. I did some research and saw that not all my credits would be transferable. So And then I started applying to jobs and was having a hard time finding a job in that area and got really lucky that I ran into ken my instructor in the hallway and he told me about this work that they're doing to start this bachelor's degree in software development and He would help me get enrolled and so I just went for it and We learned like a ton of different skills that I did not Prepare myself for or didn't think that I learned I was thinking, you know computer science software development. It's going to be really Like theory based and super technical and I had never written a line of code and I was in my 30s so it was terrifying but The small class size we got a lot of attention and I think that's that helped me in my journey. I needed Anytime that it seemed like I wasn't You know, there was various times where I was having a difficult time with whether it was keeping up with homework or you know Personal things that happened throughout the four years. I was there They were very in tune with that and so it was like hey, well, so what's going on? How can I help? There was times I'd be in the tech center doing homework eight o'clock at night My instructor is on their way out the door and see me put their stuff down sit down and stay there for an extra two hours and I That that attention and I think it was really helpful and helped me get to the finish line Several different times. I thought I was going to have to quit so And how that helped me get to microsoft One of our instructors his sister-in-law worked at microsoft and she had a nonprofit where she helped women I prepare for technical interviews and so he kind of like hooked me up with her And and I was offered a teaching position at green river after I graduated so that six months of teaching It really cemented my learning in a different way things. I thought I knew I didn't know like the You know just people ask you questions and make you think about things differently. So I think that really helped me and then When we got to the first time I applied for the it's called the leap program microsoft has this program where they Try to recruit people from non-traditional backgrounds that university recruiting doesn't have a presence in And didn't get in my first time but met with the guy who bounded it and he told me, you know some stuff to work on and I did that and ended up getting in and Now I see like all these things that we did during the the four years at green river We did so many like meet-ups and mock interviews and different opportunities to speak and all these different things that I I didn't see then like What the value was as once I got to microsoft. I'm like, oh my gosh. I'm so grateful like this I would have failed miserably and fell flat on my face and I got that opportunity to get the practice early on so Great congratulations. Thank you So joey's, you know when when we think about what is a good college? I mean melissa just graduated in four years. So we've had on time graduation Leveraged networks within the institution to sort of get connected to one of our country's premier tech firms in a very competitive economy And and you know has moved into a great job In the area So seems that you know that sounds like a the definition of a good college But these programs are controversial right and and you you sat there in the state board and now you're at an institution Can you tell I was at green river before Can you tell us a little bit about why these programs? You know, there's only a few states that are really doing them at scale Washington and florida being the two What is the pushback? Where does it come from and and and how did you all get through it in the state of washington? So a little bit of history in our state So we have a system of community and technical colleges our 34 colleges. It's a non federated system And so in 2004 we knew that there was a need for students who were not going to four-year institutions for back bachelor's degrees And we knew that we had a need in our in in our community to to meet the job needs So we asked the four-year institutions in our state. Would you consider applied baccalaureate degrees? We are neighbors to the north and british columbia had been doing this for years We had florida starting it up and they really said no That it that wasn't where they wanted to focus and so we said, okay We're going to get going and and we rolled up our sleeves and we started offering 2005 was our pilot year And then we it opened up and we have our state board for community and technical colleges that actually approved these programs so I think The real issue that we have faced is really centered around the communication piece. What are these degrees? What are they not? and so I was the director of transfer education at the state board and so a lot of people would say Well, why are you taking these on these are workforce degrees that build off of two-year workforce programs? Well, it was strategic because I was sitting at the table with provost and vice provost at the four-year institutions So I could explain why these were intended to serve a population That would not be going to a four-year college And so um, so I think that was really what we embarked on was to that communication piece The second thing we did was as part of our approval processes to require Our four-year institutions in the state to be part of a peer review on the curriculum and the program So it's faculty to faculty. So all of a sudden the faculty at a four-year institution was seeing what these programs how they differed An example of that is we just had a program approved in health physics. I would have no idea. What's health physics? Well, it's in Um It's to prepare students for the nuclear technology field in hamford in the tri cities in our state So those are kinds of things that I wouldn't even have known and that that communication appeared appear Really played a significant role in helping us communicate and then third we're really talking about pathways And it is opening up a pathway for students to even go into master's level programs When we first started these programs, we heard a lot of no's You will not these students will not get jobs at the microsoft of the world or the google Well, guess what they're getting jobs at microsoft and google these students will not be able to go into master's programs Well, we require our programs to have rigorous general ed requirements and they are going into master's programs so we got a lot of those knows and We've been able to show with our data that these students really are finding success in in the job market and Finally when you talk about these students, you really do see That they are not even a student that feels like they can drive 20 miles to a neighboring Institute for your institution. They really are place bound. They're working during the day. They come from often poverty situations we have A lot of our programs that are community and technical colleges are are really focusing on closing equity and opportunity gaps And those students feel those programs that are colleges and want to stay there to continue their path Great. Thank you. Yeah, so grace we Probably there's not many students at green river college or centrality college Who get a lot of federal work study because the federal work study formula is crazy And can you tell us a little bit about like how does that happen? How is it that the formula got so out of whack and that the money doesn't actually get Isn't actually targeted to the low-income students a little backstory on that? Yeah, certainly So the first thing to know about work studies it goes to schools not to students and then the schools Kind of get to do what they want with it Um, but the story of how it started kind of going to maybe not the right schools Is a story of kind of policy failure that dates back to the 60s and just hasn't been corrected So basically what happened in the 60s is that um, the government was like here's all this money Schools come make your case to us for how much you need and kind of the more elite Private schools that had you know more administrators. Um, and we're really used to writing grant proposals Did a really good job and then there's also some evidence that they were inflating numbers Um, to kind of Support their inflated requests So they got a lot of the money And then as some years went on and public schools and community colleges realized that there's this money out there That could be helping their students that they weren't getting Congress kind of play put that initial inequity into the policy and said, you know You schools who applied first in the 60s who were just the first at the start line Your allotments won't change much year to year. You're good And the rest of schools who hadn't gotten any money yet Well, like for you as congress adds more money You can get access to some of that So as it stands today, there's a pool of money, which is over half of the budget Which just goes to the same schools year after year Like harvard and yale and schools a lot of schools with really large endowments And then the rest of schools compete for the rest of the money And the thing is congress just hasn't added that much money to the program So what that means is a Wealthier student at a private school is actually more likely to get work study Than a low-income student at a public school, which is a mess So as congress considers reforming federal work study I think figuring out how to change the distribution formula is a key thing to fix And one one good way of doing it would be based on the number of pal students of school enrolls But there are a lot of ways of fixing it So, yes, this is how policy gets made in the surreal washington You're you're you're an institution with a a multi-billion dollar endowment and here's some more money. Yeah So, okay, let's go back to you melissa So I want to talk a little bit more about your fellow students and just the experience of going through the program I will say when you know when we heard your story You know when we were out at green river It's always like yeah, but you know Is that typical of what other students are like or am I just gonna be whole you are you a unicorn? Can you tell me a little bit about like what your other students what your your peers were like in your program and also Do you are you still in touch with them? Do you all have relationships with one another? What's happened like? So when we first started in the bachelor program there was probably 20 of us and the program was like from day one working with real clients in the community so From it was hard from day one and so we dropped like six people that first year so then there was about 14 of us for the rest of the time and it was you know a diverse set there was one other parent and then Range of Ethnicities from several different countries and in a range of age some of the guys were there Like right out of high school a couple years before that and then there was some of us were career changers So it was a really diverse mixed group of people But we got really close because you're going through this rigorous program for two years together And you know the the staff would facilitate like a room for us to do our projects and And work in so we'd be you know go through classes together and then go spend eight hours Like coding and working through solutions on the whiteboard So yeah, we got really close. We still talk to me a couple times a year We'll go for happy hour or something like that and we have a group chat that we all chat on and so yeah We three years later after graduation. We're all still pretty close And is anybody else from green river joined you at microsoft? Yeah, so one of my cohort mates She applied with me to the elite program to begin with and she didn't get in and She just kept trying and eventually she ended up getting like multiple offers from teams So she she was the second person to get in And after her we had three more green river grads come through the elite programs specifically and get hired on Yeah, I say one of the sort of You know sort of Stories around community colleges, right is that they are gigantic institutions and and you know people can get really lost in them And that is very true But we're also seeing in programs like this the community colleges can be places where people build successful networks Again a really important part of the college experience and bring those networks into the labor market with them into their companies and build Sort of bridges from their institution into into these these great firms So I think these programs really disrupt a lot of what we think community colleges are what they can do And and what what is possible when you sort of open up the the the possibilities for them to build these Kind of new programs. So with that stories, I'll go back to you Um I'm gonna I'm gonna just put the question to you pointedly. So, yeah, and you know, we're switching it up Yeah, I'm gonna I'm just gonna ask you so, you know in in our in our reading a lot of times Four-year institutions think that this is a terrible idea And a lot of states that are trying to pass legislation to allow the community colleges to offer bachelor's degrees The the biggest Pushback comes from four-year public institutions The state of Wyoming just is a recent case where they just passed the law and the university of Wyoming opposed the legislation Why is what's going on there and how do you manage that? Not to put anybody on the spot here I forgot my four-year partner here It's in washington we've been luckier than I think other states Um One is our the flagship research universities in the state have been actually very supportive And part of that is that they are have, you know, they they're they're not able to take as many of our students And so that's been helpful And the evergreen state college has been very supportive because they understand the workforce nature of these degrees Um sometimes the regional um universities have struggled because they have Vacancies in some of their programs and slots and so they're a little worried about about that But I I keep harping back to the communication piece and the data that's now being produced I mean that's that's been significant for us to show You know the need that this is having for our communities An example of this too is where The workforce and one is in teacher ed is an example Our school districts have just really been struggling to find teachers Particularly in smaller towns and to get diverse teachers into the ranks And so this grow your own idea has emerged and so we've embarked We have six of our community and technical colleges have teacher ed applied baccalaureate degree programs And it's because of this need and so that's that has been um a struggle too to to define what that is But we're we have one at centralea college and we're showing a map of where these students are going We put a little pin and it's all in the lewis county region and so it's it's serving the need of Of of those so so I think one of getting those the student story out there Getting the employers out there to say we need more highly trained employee employees Getting school districts of teacher ed is one of the one of the you know degrees that you're pursuing We've also had a lot of Organizations in the Puget Sound region that are saying look if we're going to meet our goals for baccalaureate degree attainment The higher ed system has to have the community and technical colleges play a part in that or well We will not reach those goals. And so that's also been an important message But overall I would say we have fared fairly well And but it is interesting organ just signed on to adopt Um apply baccalaureate degrees so they're calling us On your phones off the hook because they're they're interested in on how to get this started as well But yeah, don't go to california. Yeah Okay, well and one more thing to add on the quality and rigor of the programs We have the same and california does not have this we have the same accrediting body or our northwest commission for accrediting Our program so we can always talk to that we have the same accreditation process So that really has also helped us with the rigor piece So grace we were hearing a little bit about for melissa what it was like to go through this program And I know you talked to some students who were on who received federal work study or in federal work study jobs Can you share with us a little bit like what those programs meant to them and and those jobs? Yeah, absolutely So when I was writing this Feature for the washington matthews college guide. I talked to about a dozen students Doing work study jobs at different colleges to kind of hear about their experience And there were a lot of themes that ended up being really Kind of important for shaping my understanding of what was good about and bad about it And I think on the theme we've talked about like meeting meeting students where they're at One kind of important part of especially Work study that gets overlooked sometimes is how different like the different needs of underclassmen versus upperclassmen. So for Four-year student The type of job you want when you're a freshman in a sophomore is pretty different from what you're looking for as an upperclassman So what I heard a lot from students was that it was really nice When they were a freshman and just like Didn't really know what they were interested in studying Was really they were really intimidated by college Like didn't know anyone to have access to a job on campus which put them in touch with more students and staff And kind of got them connected to they made them even more likely to use kind of like the office of financial aid and things like that But as they kind of figured out what they might be interested in pursuing and kind of gained confidence and just more Subject area knowledge. They're more interested in In getting off campus and especially for the dc based students I talked to who attended some of which attended these kind of very internship focused schools By their, you know junior and senior year They were doing unpaid internships in addition to their on campus work study jobs Which just kind of illustrates how there's a better way to marry the You know better aligned with student interests because that's a lot to that's a lot to be juggling. Um, so yeah I'd say that's like three jobs at once. Yeah Okay, great. Great. So how about some questions from the audience? Uh, yeah, great. Cassie Yeah, please do Do we have a do we have somebody with the microphone there? I'm sorry. Sorry. I sort of sprung that on you. Yeah Here it comes Right up here in the front. Thank you for talking about this. Um, I have a question I think you can kind of go out to everyone when I was an undergrad I was a work study recipient and I was actually able to use it as a tutor with trio I don't know if you guys know what trio is but it is I'm a tutoring and mentorship program for students who are first-gen or underrepresented communities I'm like wondering if you're seeing opportunities like that where you can kind of combine programming that helps students In effective ways and if you saw any of that and how that could help at a community college level as well Yeah, so I think that's that's a really interesting point and it's one of those things that's just so different school to school So community service was supposed to be a core part of work study when it was created Um, and schools still do that and actually are required to do that But it's I think a lot of schools no longer think of it as the focus of the program Which is probably a real loss because I think there are some great ways that students can help other students on campus So yeah, some some schools have really kind of built out programs for work study students to do kind of Volunteer like positions or kind of service oriented work and at other schools. That's really underdeveloped. So There are different kind of ways that schools could like take away best lessons if they were interested in doing that And there's also ways that governments like the government could offer more incentives But it wasn't it wasn't the focus of my story, but I think it's really important and it's cool that you had that opportunity Any questions? Um, I sometimes we forget to look at how these degrees Apply back or degrees have helped the community and technical college itself So it's beefed up the library program It has added a lot of other resources to the college that would otherwise be there It has provided an opportunity for faculty to start thinking about You know qualified faculty to start thinking about teaching at the three and four hundred level Which is it rejuvenating a lot of careers So one of the other areas is work-based learning experiences And so that is something that We have in washington a really big push. We have this career launch That's trying to get more students into work-based learning And so with our capstone projects and and different opportunities We're seeing students in our applied baccalaureate degrees working on our campuses But also working outside as well and and that's been something too with research is another Coming from the transfer world a lot of four-year universities are having students do more research early on And that's something that's not been equitable for transfer students. They haven't had those opportunities So now we're seeing the conversation around how do we get our students to have more research opportunities as well? So it's it really has beefed up. I guess for lack of better term Some of the the offerings for students at our colleges Yeah, we I applied for a federal work study and wasn't awarded it but The the staff at my school then just they came up with the budget to pay me to tutor So I was able to still tutor for pay and stay on campus Which was really helpful And I think that they also use work study in the same budget maybe for the the help desk is run by students and so they Use that as an opportunity to get them experience and Use their work study there too and I will just say just because I'm contractually obligated to talk about apprenticeship because there's another big part of our portfolio But but we actually have looked at ways to leverage the federal work study program To allow people to do apprenticeships formal work-based learning experiences And what's nice about them as opposed to internships is that in an apprenticeship There's actually structured learning happening And there's like an actual curriculum and a structured learning going on so that part of the degree that you're earning You're actually earning while you're learning at work And so federal we're thinking about ways that to leverage federal work study for that But all of these programs could be updated a little bit more to really meet students where they are And allow them to to put different things together Learning opportunities together to advance towards a degree So we've got a question back here and then we've got two over here. So one I'm going to start and we'll go up I'm Deborah Bragg. I'm the co-author of this piece with Mary Alice We've been talking about college costs and affordability a lot today I wonder at Melissa if you could share with us from your perspective The value of the degree in terms of what it cost you And from your perspective Joyce, could you talk about how the state thinks about pricing? These baccalaureate degrees Because there is a criticism that this is a way for community colleges to generate revenue and actually increase tuition and fees And I know there's a lot of thought that goes into that. So I'd like to hear both your perspective I'm I can't say exactly what the price was compared to like if I were to go to UW I know that there was a difference, but I can't remember what that difference was It it was more than what it was during my associates degree. I know that that went up and I was lucky that I got a scholarship from the national science foundation, which helped me Fill that that gap and attend continue attending I don't believe it was my sons and University now and it's really expensive. So I don't think it was the same And you're right Different So we we charge the average of the regional university tuition rate And and we did that intentionally when we were authorized to offer applied baccalaureate degrees We didn't want to be so less expensive that that was unfair to four years with similar programs But we also wanted to make an affordable option for students And so we also only charge that tuition rate for three and four hundred level classes So if they're taking a mixture of one two hundred level and three four hundred They're only charge the higher rate for the three and four hundred So what it is it is affordable option though comparable to the regionals. We're very mindful This is an investment for our colleges. It takes four to five years to see any return On that investment and that most colleges when they Get a revenue stream after four or five years are then needing to put back into the program So I think of it at green river. That's where they have to upgrade equipment, etc And so we're we want this is the advantage of having a state system is that at the state when I was at the state board We were watching this closely because we didn't want this to be about money making We do have the colleges now all count the fte's as state fte's So they have to you know be under our policies around that and so So yes, we're because we're very careful about legislation. We don't want legislators to also Come out and say wait a minute We need more regulation around this. So we're we're very mindful of that And and careful. Yeah, I think we had a question here Hi hunter marten. I'm a reporter with the national association of student financial aid administrators Can you talk a little bit about if students at these community colleges now offering bachelor degrees have access to federal loans And how you're kind of dealing with The potential like higher default rates with those populations if they don't finish their degrees Well, I'll just quickly answer at centrelia college We're the only college in the state of washington that does not do loans And I think we might even be on the west coast So because we live in a in a community that's very high poverty rate We are very mindful of that. Um, it's it's a concern though because there There are students that would need rely on that who are not Getting the need. We also have a state washington grant too that helps fill in a gap for students with Pell And so but we're mindful of of that and And so that hasn't been an issue We do have to offer a lot of programs at night to make sure we can meet the needs of working adults Yeah, and i'll just say that's a great question and it's something definitely to be playing Close attention to I will say in the data. We're looking at so far from washington, florida We're seeing pretty high graduation rates So the graduation rates for students in these applied baccalaureates Don't mirror the graduation rates of two, you know students entering Acme colleges, which is of course extremely low But it is a really interesting point and probably something we should be paying closer Our fall to fall retention across our state is at 92 Yeah, wow For these for those programs for a live baccalaureate degree programs, but not for community colleges, generally Okay, and then we had a question here i'm frank faulman nascap and You raised some good points about reallocating who gets work study funding at colleges and like Cassie I had a great work study job when I was in college, but lately there's been stories about Work study students cleaning the bathrooms the dorms of their fellow students and A college where work studies used to pay students less than minimum wage to work in the cafeteria So do you think reauthorizers need to look at also what is an eligible work study job? um yeah um And you know, it's it's a very tricky thing to figure out and i'm not sure if the federal government's saying You can't have people checking IDs and gyms, but you can have people working in the financial aid office Like that may not be the way to do it But um, I think coming up for like maybe come up with guidelines for what what makes what counts for a work study job is is potentially important because It's it's partially a financial aid program, but it's also should be you know a job skills program and The students are already doing the jobs But not that much attention is being paid to the skills they could be getting and so I think policy makers definitely need to pay attention and be intentional about like what Skills the students want to get out of this and how do we align it with their interests and help them get ready to move into a job post-grad? Yeah, I mean this is a billion dollar program Which means it's a billion dollar program for subsidized employment, right? And it's very funny I come from more from the I come from the department of labor and the workforce The house and securing dollars to be able to support subsidized employment is incredibly difficult But if you put it in the higher education act suddenly it's all like. Oh, no, this is a great idea And you know, but again, you have to follow what is that subsidizing bad behavior? And it is important for regulators to be looking at that. You're absolutely right because these are jobs at the end of the day Yeah, any other questions out there? Oh, yeah um iris palmer from new america Joyce I was wondering I know I'm not that familiar with the way the state Funds their higher education or their their community colleges in washington But I was wondering do they have a different reimbursement rate for upper division courses So do you get paid more for upper division courses that are probably more expensive to offer since you also Charge sort of a differential tuition. So I was just wondering how that works um Oh, that's a good question I I yeah, um, I believe I don't think we so we don't get reimbursed from the state for the specific Um courses we offer We get an allocation to our community and technical college system And then we um allocate out to our 34 community and technical colleges And so um within our allocation model Um the cost per fte might change based on on the what The students are are taking but that each college is you know reimbursed for that amount Um Yeah, so so it's it's a different model. We have a big Allocation pot that we work off of that's really not dependent as much on fte's But actually in our allocation model, we do um have some waiting for colleges Who are offering applied baccalaureate degrees. So there is an incentive It's very small, but it is it is in there to encourage Colleges to to think about applied baccalaureate degrees in the very beginning when we did our pilot program There was an earmark from the legislature for a startup Um to offer these degrees, but we no longer have that so it's really up to our colleges to work within our allocation model Yeah Looks like we've got a question way in the back there and there's maybe that the last and you'll have the last question I'll strike where a previous president Elizabeth town college has there been any choices particularly for you Is there any pressure to try to expand beyond that limited range of applied Degrees that that you have been successful with and what's what's the political discussion about that and when you say expand In what way? Okay. Well, I mean I was most previously in pennsylvania and there was a push there for some community colleges to go beyond Uh sort of like technical degree for your degrees and to move into a range of things biology engineering those kinds of things so, uh That has there's been a little bit of talk about that but we as a system have very much made it clear In our statutory authority. It says very much, you know that it has to build off of two-year workforce professional technical programs So, um, you know every once in a while we'll get somebody talking about that but we as a state system have really Pushed back on that and in fact our the fact that we have a bachelor of applied science In all of our titles florida does not they have ba or bs. We have bachelor of applied science That was an agreement we made with our four-year institutions to keep that applied clear We also have like business management. It's applied business management education is teacher education So we're really mindful of crossing into a territory that we shouldn't go at this point We uh, yeah, so we we are also careful about marketing Um, we have a if I would advise any state considering offer these that you have a a group We have a baccalaureate leadership council. It sounds like blt, but it's council We had a little fun with that but we um, it's representative of each college and that's a policy support group that helps inform these As problems arise But they also helped work on some marketing guidelines because it's so easy for a college That has somebody who just came in and doesn't understand the nuances of these degrees to say hey come Take this two-year, you know this four-year degree and not use the right words to to carefully describe the program so We're mindful of that. You know, I think if anything You know, I don't know if applied map, you know, I think we're looking more Even the four years are considering more applied degrees because they can offer them too We only have one Central Washington university is offering an applied bachelor's degree, but they're also welcome to offer those so I could see more of that happening Yes, this is the Washington where careful thoughtful policy is made by by strong state systems It's beautiful. Is it it could be it could be something Okay, I'm gonna ask the panel any final words anything anybody wanted to say that they didn't get a chance to get out Or it didn't come out in a question that you want to share No pressure if you don't All right, should we give a hand to our panel? Are you closing us out?