 Fe gwelch nhw yn gweithio'r platformio mewn gwaith o', Huw, Ileidigwch, y'r gwestiel, ac mae'r ddod o'n hyn yn gwneud dwi'n gwybod eich bod nesaf amgylchedd, ac mae'n tari'r nodiall yn jeithio ac efallai ddod o'r rhan o'r тыl cair. Mae'n rhan o'ch troi i'r Ffuditaredd. Mae'n gweithio'n ddod, maen nhw'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n ddwy i'w ddwy. Mae'n gwybod ei wneud o'r cyd-dwy, ac oeddan nhw i ddwy yn y tu. Rydyn y gallais'r cyd-dwy. Oedden ni'n ddwy? Mae'n ddwy'r ddwy, mae'n ddwy'r bodi'n gwirionedd. Mae'n ym meddwl am cynllun fel ymydd. Maen nhw'n gwirionedd yn ymweld, maen nhw'n ymddangos yn ymddangos yn y cwrdd. Mae'n ddwy'n gwirionedd yn ymddangos yn ymddangos yn ymddangos, ond mae'n oeddan nhw'n gwirionedd yn ymddangos. ac mae'n gweithio'r 20 oed. Mae'n 14 oed yn ymgyrch. Mae'r Henry Rose West yn ymgyrch, ac mae'n gweithio'r cyfnodd gyda'r cyfnodd. Mae'n gweithio'r 2IRA, Martina i'r Anela, y pethau y Blynedd, y pethau yn 86. Mae'n gweithio'r cyfnodd, mae'n cyfnodd cyfnodd, mae'n cerddau'r cerddau. Mae'n gweithio'r cyfnodd? Mae ymgyrch yn 200 oed. A gweithio eich cerddau, mae'n gweithio'r cyfnodd. Mae'n gweithio eich cyfnodd, mae'n gweithio. Mae'n gyfnodd i gwbl y canffridd, mae'r cyfnodd cyffnodd, mae'n gwneud frym y�afor am yr oed. Mae'n rhan oedd. ease? Mae'r oed yn archwelio. Mae'n gweithio hynny'r cyffnodd, mae'r cerddau sy'n gweithio. Mae'n gweithio'r cyffnodd, I'm reading it through Sam and Ishbrooke a week ago. Read it. Got you on the podcast. You wrote it over ten years ago. Fascinating story from taking over the family's business. Prisons, drugs. You got a prison yourself. But my story about the mafia is the proper mafia. Is that how your mafia is? Yn drangatha. How do you pronounce that? That's from Southern Italy. Ac maeur wedi cael ei nesaf, fel y gallwn un i i ffamlau'r unig, fel that's what they are, they are mafia families. They're all families, they're all linked with blood. So it's all members of family, an outsider does obviously come in, but it's mainly family members that are involved, the clan. So you go through generations. My family's through generations of that. Before we began talking, the many greatie, I always go back to the start of my gifts to get a better understanding about them, where you grew up. How about we began? Yn gyflaen, dyna ydych chi'n gorfodd yn Milani 1970. Maen nhw'n gweithio yng Nghymru. Mae yna ddweud yn ffwrdd i gwybod. Alwch chi'n gweithio'n gweithio'n 62 a Llan, ac mae yna'r sefydli'r ardal yn 1970. Mae'r sefydli'r sefydli, a'r sefydli yn fwy o'r maen nhw. Mae yna yn dweud, a dydyn ni'n bod yn fwy oherwydd ydy, rwy'n gwybod y ffodol y gallwch yn gisg gweithio'r fforddau. Rwy'n gweithio'r fforddau, rwy'n gweithio'r fforddau o'r cyd-dwylliant. Rwyf yn gweithio'r fforddau arall, yn y cyd-dwylliant, ychydig yn gweithio'r fforddau, a rwy'n gofio ar y bwrdd hyn yn gyffredig, mae wedi gweld y cyd-dwylliant. A rydych chi fod yn ei wneud i gael y ffrif yn y cyd-dwylliant, a my mother realised the family were getting more and more into serious crime and she was apprehensive about it so she thought, I want to go back to the UK. She did in 1979. I didn't know a word of English until then and then just sent me to primary, learnt till I was in high school and I was actually at the level of a child of that age. a diwydiad. Mae'r cyllid yn ystod. Mae'n amlant sydd. Chwb dwi'n credu chi, y Maethau yw'r Yblodd. Ac mae'r ddedig yn y maeth rai'r ddweud? Yn amlant, ac mae'n dweud sydd yn y Maethau. Yn y maethau, mae'r ddweud, mae'r ddweud, mae'r ddweud, mae'r ddweud, mae'r môl. Mae'r ddweud, mae'r ddweud. Mae'n cyd-dweud i'r hyn ymllun o'r Seraïno, ond mae'n cyd-dweud i'r Bethesol. You can imagine it's the boot, the toe is Calabria. So she was born into that, but she decided in the 60s to go and live up in Milan because there was more opportunities, criminal opportunities. Good this is something my values in the mafia. a dyna gwrs, mae'n gwneud o'r cland yn y gwrdd. Felly, fy amser yn wedi'i gweithio'r cynnig, ond rwy'n gofyn i'r gweithiau o'r llunau arall o'r cyfnodau drwg, yn ymhwytof yn ymddangos. Felly, dwi'n gweithio yw'r dad ar ôl yma, a wnaeth i ddwy'r haf i ddod oedd yma, mae'r ddysgu'r ddaeth yma, mae'r ddysgu'r cyfnod yn yr unig. felly cyfu y'r un adnod, a y ffrindio gan ei hyn ymwysig di meddown, ac ein bod yno'r bydd dweud yn ffrindio i gael ei wath. A dwi ddweud i mi, felly mae'n dda i gael eu hynau, ac mae hwnnw'r final yn rhaid o hwnnw, felly mae ar 9 defnyddio. Rwy'r hyn byr i'r gweithio yddydd yng Nghymru ac mae'r ddau'r ganod. Mae'n sowón i dda, fyddai'n fydd fan hynny, a'r stryd i rebuild, ac mae'r dda yn cael ei fyddiau i ei gael mewn hollwnfyr, i chi'n gwybod i chi i gael y toctor o'r llyfr. Felly, yna'n cael ei wneud ychydig i gael y ffordd yma, mae'n cael ei wneud i chi'n gwybod i chi'n gwybod i chi. Ond oes i'r gweinio, mae'n gwybod i'r gweinio'r llyfr. Felly, rwy'n gweinio'r llyfr o'r rong. Mae'n rhaid i'r llyfr o'r gweinio'r llyfr, ond mae'r unig yma. Mae'n gweinio'r llyfr o'r llyfr, o'r llyfr o'r llyfr o'r llyfr, i ddechrau'r eich swyddo rhai i'u ei amser. Rwy'n rhain am y g富eth, a mae yn ymd 아니 ar gyfer rwy'n gwneud. Yn mynd i'r gynllun o'u cyfrisell, rwy'n hynny'r ysi eu cyfrisell mae'r cyfrisell, ei beidio i'r rhai i'r hynny, rwy'n hynny'n gwneud yn ymdani ar gyferiku. neu yn obsfynol hefyd, oedd rwy'n gwneud yn y holladau. Beth rwy'n cyfrisell y prinses, felly arferio andain'r ysb.... I ddim yn y cyffredin wneud, y ddych chi'n gweithio'r mawr. Fodd yn y bwysig, rydyn ni wedi cyllразd y poln, gallwch i chi ddim yn y bwysig i ddim yn y bwysig i ddim yn y gyffredin ddisgwyd. Felly rydyn ni'n gweithio'n gael i'r cyffredin. Yn amlwg, rydyn ni'n 18, rydyn ni wedi gael i'r ddigon iawn. Rydyn ni'n gweithio'n gwneud yma i gyd-degyn i'r cyffredin. Y cwun, fyddwn ni'n gweithio i chi. Dyna'r gweithio, byddai'n ei fod? Rydych chi'n gweithio'r ffaith? Mae'r 13-dydd, mae fawr wedi'u gilydd i'r gwybod yw'r hynny. Mae'r ffaith eich ddweud yn 79, oedd yn ymgyrch i'w cyfreithio'i mae'r amdd. Mae'n gweithio'r rhan o America. Mae'n gweithio'r cyfeithio'r gweithio'r hynny. Yn ymgyrch, mae'n gweithio'r cyfrifio'r ffaith oherwydd mae'n gweithio'r bobl. If it wasn't him it would have been Bye Sub Также. So he went on the run then end that time, and about thirteen inì 1983 he was found over traffic ball round in a red light and he got arrested and got found who he was. So he got ex- Nintendo back to Italy to face a murder charge back then. Felly, rhan yn erbyn i gynhyrchu. Rwy'n wych. Felly, rydych chi'n gwn i. Felly mae'n gynhyrch. Felly, rydw i fynd yn bwysigol. Felly, diolch chi ddim yn ystod iawn. Rydw i chi'n ment. Wydyn ni wedi'i gydigodd wedi'u mikrofydlu o'u gymryd. Felly, mae'n gyda'i... Yna, mae'n gyda'i... Mae'n gyda i ymddor i'r difnod flasedd. Mae'n cyfristirio, nad yw'r ddod, ac yn ystod, rhymes yng n defnyddio allan, gallwch'n gweithio ddim yn Ymryd. Dwi'n cael ei wneud i wneud. Sut peth eich adeilad am eu sig? Mae'r adeilad yw eu hynny wedi'u'n sain sy'n rhoi eu pa ffynuio ar hyn? Mae hynny a'r adeilad i chi. Mae'r adeilad i chi, a'i ddagsiaeth i chi ddagsiaethu pa i ddagsiaethu pa i ddagsiaethu pa i ddagsiaethu. Mae'r ychwanol eich arddur gennym MAX It is now I'm 52. I am far more at peace. I've had my head down in shame. I've tried to get away because I did what I did. yn gyfweld, ac yn ymweld, hefyd wedi'u gwahoddiadau, mae'r unifeswyd ddau'r pwysig o'r cyfnoddau o'r cyfnoddau erioedd yn ffordd am y gallu cyfrannu, sy'n ddiddordeb o'r ffwg na'i ddweud i'r ffwg? Mae'r ddweud i'r ffwrdd a'r ffwrdd a'r ddweud i'r ffwrdd a'r ddweud i'r ffwrdd. Mae'r ddweud i'r ffwrdd, rwy'n ddiad i'r ddweud i dda i ddau'r ddoddau. ac mae'r bod yn rhywun o'ch gwybod. A o'i bod yn y cyfnod am 8 oed, ydw'ch bod yn y gyfan nhw'n wneud i mi yn ei chweun gallwn eich bod yn i fod yn yr oedau Aberi. Roeddwn i ganddain gyd yn oed, ac nid o'n cael ei fforddio arno. Ac yn i ganddain i'n ganddain llawn yn eu bod yn gallwn eu cyfnodau. Roedden ni'n ganddo ffornod i'n ganddyn nhw. Roedden ni'n ganddawio i jedi. Rhaid oeddwn ni'n gweithio, bo'n gwybod yn ymwneud, wrth gwrs mae eirio'n iwerthio a'r iwerthio'n iwerthio. Rwy'n nhw'n gofyn nhw, rhaid i chi, rwyf i ddweud o'r cyfnodd a'r hyffordd, i dda i gyfnodd y mynd i mawr. Mae'r bwrdd yma'n ddiolch, ac mae'r bwrdd yma'n ddweud o'r bwrdd a'r dweud yma. Mae'r ddweud o'r bwrdd yn y ddweud, rwyf i'n dda i ddan nhw. Oh my God this is serious. I've got myself into it. And of course you've got to look back and you think with my dad, you know, I did make my choices. I was very naive and very, and I had a massive issue with him, a lot to prove to him. But who did he have to trust, you know, when you've got vast amounts of money? I'd mainly dealt with the money, well I got done for money laundering. And he did not many people you can trust in that life with them vast amounts of money to the point where we had a money machine. That's how much money was coming in. So, you know, I understood his, he didn't intentionally want me to break the law. But he did allow it, which, you know, if I look at my children, one's 31, one's 22, I'd never dream I'd take, I'd do the time for them. You know, I would never dream of getting them involved in something like that. That's a difficult thing though, isn't it? Hindsight's always a wonderful thing especially with these sort of stories. But so, see the mafia that started in Sicily, is it the same as the Americans at Five Families in Italy? Or what's the difference between the mafia in Italy and the mafia in America? So, you've got, so actually the origins of mafia, they say that three Spanish knights came over from Spain. They were detained in a prison in one of the islands and they made up the clans. They came out and made up the Andrangata in Calabria, Gamora in Naples, and Cosaenostra in Sicily. So, there's three lots of maffias, if you will. So, of course, the origins, a lot of them that did go to America were the Sicilians to start with in the 1920s, 30s and so, excuse me. So, there's a lot of Calabrians that went over as well. So, the difference is they, you see, they say, the Americans say they don't involve the women, they don't involve, they protect them. In Italy, in the Italian mafia, the women are the backbone. And the authorities only just realised that 20 years ago, because without the women, the men wouldn't be able to because they were the ones that, but like I said, this is the backbone, the logistical side of it, like I said with my nan. You know, behind every strong man, every powerful man is a strong woman. Not all cases, of course, but so the women are very much involved, the logistical side, they're keeping everything together and making sure shipment gets in there, where it's distributed. And so, it's... Why was that? Is that because the women fly under the radar, the women are most smart are that? No, they fly under the radar, they don't look at them, the police never used to look at us. We used to get raided at my nan's house and most of the time we knew when they were coming because we had someone on the payroll, but sometimes we didn't. So, I remember just sat there in the kitchen, I'd have dressing gown on and something underneath. I'd have to stuff loads of money around me that was in the house at the time, but we didn't want them to take. Sat on top of a tile that was loose with a gun in it, they wouldn't ever make me stand up and search me. So, because they didn't even look at us women, they didn't even contemplate that we could be hiding anything, but whereas, obviously now it's different, it's a different world now, they do, and you know, the women especially, the double deviancy, a woman shouldn't be thinking like that, a woman shouldn't commit crime, she's a nurturer, she's a mother and a... So, you looked upon even doubly harshly in some ways because of it. How many people were in your family? So, there was 12 siblings, but the actual, sorry, the first wave of arrests which was in 1992, that's when my father got... He was a fugitive in Spain then, wanted in Italy, and I think it was like 150, got arrested on the first wave. Obviously they weren't all family, but they were all connected to the organisation. I can't quite remember the second wave which I was in as well, because it was everyone from abroad that were abroad, that they were then arrested, I was back in the UK by then, and I got convicted here of money laundering, then they extradited me back to Italy for a charge under an umbrella of organised crime. Of course it is, see that sort of... kind of circle and environmental, how much surveillance, and how long is a surveillance on a family like that? It was for a couple of years, they had, that support bought us down, a lot of it was surveillance and talking on the phone, and then that people talking, getting arrested, but the main one was my dad's sister. She was the first one that did it, and then that was it, because she did talk, she talked about everyone, even her own son and the mother and the brothers and everyone. So, but she got arrested with a thousand tablets of ecstasy, and then it's all come out that it was my uncle's merchandise, she'd lost him some money, she was trying to get more money, so she pinched these tablets to try and gain back, make money out to give back, but he was quite ruthless with her. And this woman I hated for a long time, because she put us all inside, and then I found out certain things, what happened to her, and I thought, hmm, I can sort of, I get it, because that's not really, since doing my community I think more, because it is a man's world, that world. And when they never look at the women and how, you know, the women suffer quite a lot. There's a lot of abuse going on. It's not something it's talked about, and I don't really really talk about it, but a lot of, you know, abuses in and so, they are very much, you know, like very old school with women. Physically and mentally? Yeah. So, not myself, thankfully, that would never happen. Of course, if you think that was. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, I've had some uncles, I've had some slaps, I've had one kick me in the face, but I did say, it was harsh, I did say, because it's about my dad, and I was so mad at him, I said, oh, you should just go back to prison, and he just went boom, and he just kicked me in it, but I was 17. You know, it's like I'm laughing about it, because I've done too much crying already, but so, you know, actually, this is probably the first time I've talked about that. I'm not even sure I talk about that in the book. Was there much crying in your early years, or was it just an excitement for you, where you didn't even know what was going on? I didn't, it's like it's weird, it's like, you're detached. I did a module on, and coming on to you, on terrorism, and they say, talk about how terrorists are detached to what they do, and how their way, and it really upset me, but I nearly cried in a lesson, because I felt like that's how I was. I was so detached from the reality, the real, the seriousness. I had no one, an elder come to me and say, if you do this, this is what's going to happen. It's all right to have it at the back of your mind when you're young, and you think, oh yeah, but it's not going to happen to me. But if someone had pulled me and said, right, because most of the elders have been inside already, I'm talking about my family, and my dad, and my nonna, so that's how it feels. I can't, there's no excuse then, I'm not trying to say, I'm not trying to be evicting, because I wasn't evicting. Probably to myself, I was evicting to myself, like, I was so easily led into things, but saying that, so I haven't made a point when we did the book, I didn't want anything glamorous, because it's not glamorous. It can be glamorous, of course it can. You've got nice things in it, but you're risking, you're looking behind your shoulder all the time. It's not a nine to five, but it might be four to four, four in the morning until four. It's not a glamorous world of, you're not laid out in bed all day. You have to work. My father made sure I worked. His women didn't. He could have easily not involved me, and I could have lived a good life with him, but he didn't do that. He made sure that I did. And I suppose I want to show him that I could do things. Thank you for the acceptance. Yeah. What sort of stuff was your dad involved in? It was mainly drugs. How was that, though? I thought that the mafia were not against selling gear? Or was that just a myth? Well, it's a myth because the biggest exporters of cocaine goes through Gioia D'Auron. It's in Italy. 80% of it goes through there. And I think they don't like to be the dealers on the streets, but they can be the traffickers, because that's what we were, traffickers. So it's from A to B. So they dealt in the 80s heroin. My family lost three siblings through that. So my nonna paid a heavy price for that. Being involved in that, someone got hooked on it and they died through it. They were only 13, 29. Another one was even younger in the 80s. Do you believe kinematics a part in this? Yeah. My nonna, she was massively into the church and she used to give so much money to the church. She would earn it, but they'd give it because she was, you know, when she met her maker, she didn't want to. She wanted to show the balance. But this is a woman that hadn't gone to school. She couldn't read right. She signed with her next as a signature. But she was so clever. She was in that, I mean, till she died four years ago, she was 86, 87. She was a house arrest. She was with a zimmer frame. No lady, because the authorities said, well, your brain still works. We are scared. She's dangerous. I mean, she's in the Italian archiboles, which are the law books in Italy as the highest ranking mafia woman. I don't think anyone's ever been as high as she was, but this is a woman that was born into it. And that's all she haven't knew. How big was your dad's empire at the height of it? Well, there's nine countries involved. So it was supplying cannabis all over Europe. So we'd supply people in Holland, they would give us ecstasy tablets, you know, it's a swap and swap. There was in one security box, my dad had to put a lot of money in security box, even though I had a Geneva Coots, the Queen's Bank account in Geneva. I had that in my name and at one point I had about 1.6 million in that. And in all different accounts, one of them had 700,000 pounds cash. And I didn't know about that because I said to my dad, why don't you just let me sort that out? It was English money, you know, looking back. I mean silly now, but it's just things like that that you said there's a lot of countries involved. He worked with people, quite well-known people in London. They actually owe him money, so it's all gone now. It's a bit, it's a few hundred thousand because he got arrested and quite well-known family, you probably guessed who they are. Did your dad know what was coming on top for him? Or did he always think he was untouchable? He always thought he was untouchable because he escaped. He was arrested in 1991 and he bribed a prison doctor because he'd been shot a year before. He's been shot twice in two places on his legs, so he's always having to see the doctor and consultant gets all these aches and pains, sorry. And in prison he said he had this issue. The doctor went along with it, so he had a prison hospital visit. He saw all these soldiers, as you will, that worked for him. We were already in waiting. He went six in the morning and they got him out. It was quite a big, because underneath the, I can't remember the hospital name, but they went underneath the corridors so he wasn't where the public was. But all these guys were dressed like doctors and they all, and they had the first stunt gun. It was just come out in America and we managed to get one and it was a big hike because there was no, not even the police in Italy had the stunt gun, so one of them dropped it and the guy, the guard that I was actually taking my dad has said to him, if anything happens you're the first one down. And this guy after when his, my dad's guys came and he actually peed himself physically, which is quite sad bit, but I thought, well do you know what? You're the first one down acting all the man and then he actually peed himself. So my dad got out of there, went to a restaurant that was friends with, had a right big lap up me or why helicopters and everybody was looking for him. He was in a restaurant in a cent just down the road from it. It was crazy. Then he got out, because he used to use, this is all, this is all him on the trial papers. I'm not saying anything. So we used to use a big bus to bring across the Canaveral to be tons of Canaries, a tour bus. So it go into Spain from Italy touring with holiday makers, tourists and underneath it there was an extra sort of shelving being done to put either money or the merchandise, which was cannabis. And he got out obviously going on to that, what his merchandise used to, that's he got out. By the time, you know, 10 hours later he rang us, we were in Rimini by the sea because I'd locked my house up, but they're going to come and raid me now. I'm going to go. I was pregnant actually at the time. We were in Rimini and he called and went, I'm here safe. We knew he was in Spain. So we're all drinking champagne and celebrating because my dad was out. So this is what I'm trying to say. I was so detached from that. That was my life. I can't even explain sort of, you know how it's, you can't explain it. It just becomes your life and you're not a bad person. I'm not a bad person. I can see that. It's, you know, I'm not, but you just, you make decisions, but you carry them for the rest of your life as well. Of course, man. At that age as well, when going through that life, you do anything for your family. It's trust. If you're, if aunties and other people are turning against the family, then who do you trust? If you know you're a hundred percent and you do everything for your mum and dad, no matter if it's right or wrong. Do you know what I mean? If somebody, my mum phoned me or my, if my dad ever phoned me and he was in trouble and it was the worst thing possible, would I help him? He fucking bit. I believe I would. Would I agree with it? No, but it's family in it. You die for them. You are there to protect, as a father as well. You should be protecting your daughter, but he's too caught up in that. If he's the leader of that family, he don't see that. Do you know what I mean? He don't see Yuri's baby daughter. He's just saying, keep it in the family. And that must be a hard thing. Do you live with that regret? Like why? Knowing that you've got kids now? Yeah. I mean, he's actually apologised to me. Who was that? He said he was sorry that he got me involved, that he didn't understand it. He was grown into it. That's all his life. All he ever did was move from one place from another to another to another. I mean, he'd earn about a million a week. You know, this is a guy that, and you know what, now he's changed his life around. He's a qualified chef. He's so humble. He doesn't have much, and he doesn't, but he's, he just doesn't, he knew. So my dad eventually, after 13 years he was inside, he got a letter from my younger sister, she's Slovakian, saying I feel like an orphan. You're in prison. My mum's in prison. I feel like an orphan and I feel like, and he just changed something in him. And he, so you've got to understand, when my family got arrested, a lot got life. They got 30 years plus because we're involved in military weapons and sending them down south to a war that my family was in down south. They actually won it. I'm talking about Kalashnikov, Bazookas, and, you know, and they won that war. My father funded it and sent it. I took it down on one trip. I raised my life. What did you take down? He was on the, on just a finger of the car. He was there, it was a Bazooka and some Kalashnikovs. I think that's in my book. And I mean, I'm smiling now. It's not funny, but it's like. That's true if I'm getting stuck if I'm on it. No, but I took him down. So I, we stopped, I'll never forget, we stopped at a petrol station right next to two part police cars. And he does that right next to them, went in, got a sandwich, got back in, drove off. I mean, he does that within part, the car part was massive. It was like almost like, well, it's so much under your nose that you're not going to notice that. You know, but it, but he was scary was I was, to be fair, was with my daughter's dad. And there was other people, but I'm never going to mention them. And there's a lot of things that I don't say on mention names. And when we got down there, do you know the thing that scared me the most, which is his crazy of just driven down 10 hours with all that? That my uncle was like, do you want to come out shooting in the mountains? I was like, no, there's a war going on. I was horrified that my then future husband was going to get shot. So it was a bit like surreal. I was like, but I've just drove down with all this. Yeah. I wasn't, I could have got 20 years inside for that. But when I'm going back to what I was saying, my family got a long time because of that. And because my, my father's sister went grass, the family didn't want to know. And it was wrong that it was harsh on my father that, and on all of us the sacrifice we made for, for, we didn't get anything from it apart from helping the family. And my dad doesn't talk about this, but I will, I do because it, you know, of course I've got a family down there that are still going. But I think it's hot. I think it's not right. You know, it's unfair what they did with my father. He did 13 years inside. And then as I said, going back to that, my sister wrote, I knew then he was either going to die in there or he was going to die going out because he's going to lead the same life. So he decided to collaborate with justice. So he told him exactly what he'd done. Gave up more, more properties, which I'm laughing because one of them was mine and I didn't want him to give that up, but it was a villa and just outside Milan. And you know, and he did that. And he went, I was an expert witness on one trial, which the guy was already getting life. My dad does regret that now, but that's, that's what he did. So people can say, well, oh, well, he's a, he's turned against. He's a, I never thought my dad would, to be honest. Just the upbringing and you do stop. I didn't. Is it a murder? Do you take off? A mherta. A mherta. A mherta, because I had Michael Francesion and he spoke about a mherta. Yeah. Well, you know, when the difference, you're going back to the Americans, the difference they're made, we're not made because we're born into it. That's the difference. You don't need to be made. You're made if you're outside of it. If you're the brother-in-law or the, so that's the Madonna di Montagna. So they're taking off to get in. Yeah, they go up to the mountain in Calabria. This is, there's a, I think it's in August. Who's the biggest family and the mafia in Italy? Who's the biggest family? Oh God, there's, there's a few of them. You wouldn't, I wouldn't like to say which one's the biggest. There's in, I think they all, actually there's a thing, there's a current. I don't know if you've seen that Mateo Missinadinaro. That's just been arrested after 30 years in Sicily in the last week. Have you not seen that? No. Right. Well, it's 30 years he's been on the run. And he was arrested in hospital. He's got cancer, a private clinic close by to Trapani. That's the area. So his father was the main guy. He died and his son took over. They work with Totorina. I don't know if you've heard of him. So these people have blew up the judge on the motorway in the 90s. Falcone, the judge, then there's Brusilino. And so this guy just been arrested. He was the guy that Totorina, which was the boss of bosses in Sicily up to 10 years ago, 10, 15. He relied on this denaro as his hitman. If anything was to be done. And my father was telling me he met them. He knew them all. They met in a meeting in Calabria in 89, 90. Cos he'd done a dealing with someone in Sicily in Palermo. And this guy didn't want to pay. So my dad went to them and said, I don't want to start any violence or any fun on your territory, but this guy's not paying. You either tell him to pay or I'm going to have to. I'm asking your permission to come and do something to him. Cos that's how it works. You can't step on each other's toes. So they, of course, sorted it out and made sure that my father got paid. But it's weird how these things, but if you look up on it, it is a big thing about it now. Because, and then they're saying, I'm doing a Turkish TV interview next week. And they're saying, they were asking my father, well, he's never, he's probably gone for a month or two. He's always been there because the boss can't go far. Cos it's doggy, dog, they'll take his territory if he does. Everybody probably knew he was there for 30 years. The police are being corrupt in it. And one thing nobody's looked at is he's dying of cancer. He's sacrificed himself somehow. That's what I believe. Because it's probably so much heat on other things that he wants to take it from that. And saying, he's me. Put the heat on me. I'm dying anyway. See, when there's a war between the mafia and Natalie, that when you're talking about dropping off bazookas and AKs, you're like, how big is it? It's not just a case of a family grievances here. Maybe somebody gets killed. It's not that big here. But over Natalie, how big is the war between mafia families? It's like a war zone. It's literally a war zone. You go down to signs in Italy, they've all got bullets in them. They're welcome to Blackpool. There'll be bullets in them. So when I look at the gangsters here that think and everything that's going on, I'm not taking away the mean and whatever. But that's a whole different level over there. But it's also a level of respect. I know they have stooped low with children and women involved in that in Italy, but that's very rare. Over here, I mean the little girl that was killed in Liverpool. It's wrong that... And actually what I try and do now, I'm trying to get in schools actually. Because I feel there's all this gender fluid thing, there's all this, it's so important, actually what's important is children are getting stabbed outside of school. And you need someone to go in and tell them that it's not right, that it's not all that great. And unfortunately, they only tend to respect someone like myself. Because you tell them about authorities and they don't care. Policemen goes in to talk to them. But if you bring in someone that's been in the mafia, they're like that. You can see it. You know, and the two take more note. I mean I've had experience of it with my children in the past. When my daughter was in the house, and these two lads tried to get on top of my front door and climbing on my house. And my neighbour, I was away for the day. She was 14 and my neighbour told me. And I said, right to this other kid. I said, point them out if they're here. There's a park just down the road. Two weeks later, he said, oh, them lads are at the park. So I went to them. First thing they did, put the camera out and started recording me. I said, who do you think you are coming to my house, climbing, not your property, blah, blah, blah. Next time I call the police. Ah, yeah, police. Whatever, you pedo. Well, as soon as I heard that, and I was a bit ashamed after, but then I thought, I said, how dare you call me. I have not done four years inside for a little shit like you to tell me. I'm a pedo. Who do you think you're talking to? And they were like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. We fought you a nine to five secretary. So I've had experience of it. That unfortunately, because you feel a bit stupid, I mean, said that to a kid, but they tend to push teenagers to a level of like, hang on a minute. So, and I know that. And so now it's like trying to show these kids that it's not good. It's not great. It's not, it's like the all the Andrew Tate stuff. Sorry that I'm mentioning that because my son is 22. Andrew Tate, I'm horrified. Who is this? It's a gangster. He looks like a gangster, but he's not. He's acting like one. He's showing this because he is showing his pig. Do you know what I mean? And I think, listen, each of their own, however they make the money, good luck to you. Respect in that way. Hopefully it's not through trafficking of women or whatever's going on. We don't know. I'd like to think, let's wait. Do you know what I mean? I'm not going to judge straight away. Let's wait. And I sent the proven girl. Well, we like to think that, but not when you're waiting on remand somewhere like where I was in Durham. What do you think the differences between the gangsters in the UK and the mafia? There's no comparison is there? There's no, the mafia, it's a lot more of a family unit. There's a lot more lines you don't cross. Do people on the street tend to, even though, yeah, there's an uproar about the mafia, because maybe someone's got shot that is innocent, just like that. But that rarely happens. But most of the time, they're giving to the neighbours, they're protecting the neighbours, they're helping the neighbours. You know, someone needs treatment for cancer. Here you are. And that's what they do. But that's not just, obviously it's for their own gain, because they want to keep everything. They don't want shootings on the street because it brings heat on. So they can't do all their operations. Whereas over here, they don't care. They should be thinking more about, I'm going to admit it, if this happens, there's a feud about what, someone running to the car and smashed the car. I mean, I don't know, I'm just saying, what is this feud about? Is it that strong that you're going out shooting also innocent people on the street? Is it worth that? It's discipline. It feels like there's no discipline. If you're in that life of crime, you've got to live by the rules and regulations when it comes to that life. Do you know what I mean? If you're stepping out of a lane, if you're doing whatever and people are killed, then you've kind of signed up for that. But it's the innocence of the people who get caught in the crossfire here for, like you say here, that people think they're bigger than what they are. People watch a few films here and actually think they're from the mafia. It's just crazy how we see the world. But how does a young girl, like yourself, then take over the family business? What was the steps to that? So, as I said, my father got arrested. It was actually Portugal. He got arrested in 1993. And by this time I was, my husband was arrested, my Italian husband, my first husband at the time. And I used to go every weekend to visit them. I used to go to Madrid prison to see my husband then, then fly on to Lisbon, go to the prison there, fly back to Milan on a Sunday. So this would be every weekend for about a year. And on the weekends, my father used to give me notes to give to his guys. So all I'd like to say well, I took over. I didn't take over. I was my father's voice. So to me, I was, I know, people say, well, I took over and people like to think that actually it's not. I was relaying his voice. Of course, the logistical side of it, there'll be times where his voice, I couldn't just ring him or I had to make some choices myself. So I guess in that way, you could say what I was running it. But I just had good guys around us, loyal guys that helped me along. I mean, even my own uncle tried to take over and he sent word to say, I'll just give her a kick up the bottom and send it to me. And I said, well, really? You know, but you've got to think I was 23. Just had a baby. So I was a really young girl. And, you know, when I did my book and again, it was like a therapy for me and my ghost writer, Douglas Thompson, he said, I said, how can they have given me such responsibilities? I've got a child, you know, by that time, my daughter was probably about that age. Sorry. How could it give me such responsibility to me? And he said to me, well, you must have shown that you could take it. You must have shown because he doesn't automatically. You know, you see these mafia movies and now he's saying, automatically goes to the first born he automatically, you know, the responsibility. But it's not like that. They have to show that they can do it. But I hadn't even entered my mind that they could see that I was responsible enough. To me, I was just like, right, well, I'm going to have to get on with it now. I can't leave. I tried as I had my daughter. It was a big slap him in the face. I thought, oh my God, I've got another. I've got a responsibility as my child. But unfortunately, I'd already committed the crime. And even though I tried to pull myself back because that happened, if my father had been arrested, I was pulled back in and I had to step up and do what needed to be done. And that was for about a year. How hard does that decision newborn dies in prison let the kid would have been the past to go, I'm out, I'm done. You must have had money talked away like that. But how hard was it when your dad was in prison to chose that life with your dad? Was that again to get that acceptance and be willing to That was the loyalty. The loyalty. And the love. Is that what it comes down to? Yeah. That was loyalty and love. It wasn't about, I didn't even understand about the acceptance till now. Before it was that, I'm going to show it. As I was in the organisation, as I was taking money, I used to take hundreds of thousands to get cannabis, you know, and to Spain. I used to have it Bridget Jones because you know on the airplane you wouldn't dream of that now. But there's no, there was no laundering, money laundering laws then. You could do what you wanted really. In fact, they're saying that's probably one of the people that bought that law in because it was a big, it was a big thing then because of what I'd done. I'd transferred moneys from Switzerland bought a show house. But I just thought, I thought I was untouchable, I guess. You know, it's just... Do you see a lot of yourself in your dad though? I never thought I was like him but do you know what? Yeah. And even some of my uncles have said that Apple doesn't fall far from the tree because of some of the decisions that I've made even about writing the book. They're like, well, you're like your dad, and I'm like, actually, I wrote that because I couldn't get a job and I had no career and I kept being asked to do it. And in the end, I'll tell you this, they arrested a guy from the Gamora, he was on the run, he was a hit man. He had a limizine hire firm and rented a house in Gastang which is near Preston. I lived just 20 miles from him but they decided that I must know this guy in the national newspaper. I must know this guy. I must have helped him rent his house and I had the same bank account which was Barclays and I'm like, we're so doing millies. I'd never set eyes on his guys before. And then they just wrote this out and then I got older muscle he says, how can it, well, you're convicted, you're convicted, you can't do anything about it. So this isn't fair, I've been out 10 years and they still persecute me. So then I was, and someone else reached out to me about doing a book and I thought, you know what, I'm going to do it now because I want to tell my side of it. Of course, this is a financial side of it because I couldn't get a good job, I couldn't have a career, I couldn't, up to five years ago, doing my degree, I was self-employed cleaning. I lived in a council house for 20 years, I only just moved out a few years ago. I was born in one and I thought I'd die in one. But it was more my children. I did it for them to have a few to be able to have something to, and as I said, doing a degree as well and it's opened a lot of doors. I do talks and that, not just such as this, you know, I go on and it's earning me a living with it. You know, also Amazon did a series based on my book this year. It came out in April, it's called Bang Bang Baby. At first I thought, it stands a bit pornographic, I'm not full, I'm happy with that. So I was like the first initial and then you know the song Nancy Sinatra, Bang Bang, you're shouting down. That's where, so it's Bang Bang Baby, so it's an Italian series, it's dubbed now. I think it's 10 parts and the plot is completely different to my life story. They've completely changed it. They've put some things in which is a bit controversial, I'm not sure my family are very happy with that. But the relationship between my father, my non and myself is quite good. They've bought that in about with my father, you know. What's the daily routine like for him after your boss? Well, you're always here there and everywhere. So you could be, last minute, you've got to catch a plane to Spain. You've got to catch a plane to here or you've got to go and do this. It's not, there is no such routine. Because you're here there and everywhere. It's, it's whatever, you know, how can, of course it's not in the nine to five and that's what people are like, oh, I must be glamorous because you are catching a flight to that and you are. But yeah, I guess, you know, you're flying here and then everywhere, but you're looking over your shoulder. So what, you know, and then you get caught and then you're doing 20 years. I've got 14 years altogether. You know, fortunately for a legal technicality, I'd ended up doing four, but I should have been out far later. So going back the routine, there is no such routine because it's every day is different. When did the house of cars come tumbling down? When did it all? My father's sister got arrested. And how long, how far along was that up to such a bad get arrested? This was 92, 1992. So we're talking 30 years this year, the last year, 30 years. Was it fuel at yesterday? No, not now. I've moved on, I've plans come out. It did do. It's taken a long time to let go of certain things and your own demons, I guess, and like I said, you know, to find some sort of peace because, you know, in directly, I know people got hurt and I'm conscious of that and I carry that. But, you know, I did my time inside and there's a lot more. You either go in and you realise on your first day I do not want to come back in here. Or it's a vicious circle, like people keep going back in. It's obviously not touching them or it's not making, because I don't think prism works anyway. Does I think there should be, of course with some, you have to lock them up, the really bad ones and that's going on too, you know, HMP Durham, I was in Melinda. Melinda Calvert of Black Weather? Yes, I was in with her at that time and Mama Hindley Rose West came in so was walking across corridors crossing them. You know, horrible horrific thing of rose in the shower coming out and she's like that, a naked and I'm like, oh my god, you know, she was on remand then. So it was like, well, did she do it? Did she not do it? He's just stung himself. We didn't really know what, because of course, when you're in there, you're not like, oh you did that. And a lot of them do say I'm innocent and you're like, well, but the mask comes off after a certain time. When you're around people, you know, you can't have the pretenses all the time. Sooner or later, you see, actually I can see you doing that. What was my line like? Medicine, presence was medicine. There's an aura about her. You can't, I can't really explain. I remember she came across the landing once and she's looking at me up and down. It really made me cringe. I mean, I was 25, 26, I was fit, I was in the gym four hours a day, you know, I was, and she attended, said she liked women, didn't she? And I was like, oh god, don't look at me. You know, it's like, but, and with rose, it was weird because she's like the next woman on Tescocu. It was like, but actually there's certain things about her that did sort of, um, she just, you can sort of see, as I say with time, it shows a person. I mean, I was in with the two IRA, Martina and Ella, the ones that bombed, the Brighton bombing in 86. They were, because I was a double cate, prisoner because of the mafia connection. And they were the first ones to take me around or um, and the first I thought, I was like, I feel a bit like a VIP here because I'm getting shown around where Grizzly Grizzly was horrific. Grizzly prison in Warrington. There was a female unit then and then I got taken to Durham and I thought, oh my god, it's so far from home. And I did, it just didn't, it took about two weeks to trigger in my head. This is a prison within a prison. These are all lifers. I'm never going to get out of here. I actually thought I would never get out of here. That's a scary thing, and let's see when, was it your auntie? It turned against everybody. But what was that feeling? Was that totally out of the blue or was there always a suspicion that she was a suspect that she could have done that? No, it was south of the blue. But actually afterwards when you look at it, she was the weakest link. How so? She was on amphetamine, slimming tablets. She's crazy anyway. She was nice, as well. I liked her as an auntie. But she was always doing crazy shit. There's never, can I swear? Of course you can. Is there anything worse? Yeah, that's right. Anything goes. I don't like women swearing though. It's like that sometimes when I get... No, listen. You've threw about with fucking bazookas and you've threw about with bazookas and grenades. I'm sure you fucking swear. See what I mean? It's just crazy. It's like one extreme to the other. It's crazy. But she was a knock-case. Yeah, she was... She just would do really... Where's my other aunties at all? Really. Yeah, most of them were involved in the family business. There was only about three or four that were. Did you ever look at them and feel envious? No. They might have been the other way around. Jailer said to all, sure. I didn't. Yeah, because I was... Maenon, I loved me. I was the daughter of your firstborn. She... My dad was a favourite. My dad was the one that was bringing in everything. The making the money. And there's a few that were spongers because they didn't know about their life, but they didn't want to get the hands dirty. And my dad used to go, why don't you say we can't do that? And now... You know, look, he's involving his own daughter so he's like, well no, they've got to get up and do something. If anything, it was either way around and I'm not saying that they were... I'm not saying that they were confrontational with me or they were nasty. No, I had none of that. They all loved me and were all together. But if you look back on it, looking back on it, there's certain things I think. Mainly, probably, my uncle's wife. You know, there's a few that were a bit sort of... So your dad gets to Jail, they aren't itons. Was it the fallen of the house kinder when your dad went to prison? Like the things that were tumbling down then? Did you see the cracks? Like it was too hard to keep together? Yeah. Well, especially when you're fighting your own family, when your own uncle wants to take over. It's not good, is it? Could your dad not have got to him? I don't even think that I actually told my dad at the time because I didn't want to cause... I didn't want to cause a war. I didn't want the crack to get even bigger. I thought I could handle it myself. Which I did and he didn't push it any further. So it was years later that my dad found out about that. What was your auntie? What was she offered to Tonne? Immunity. But for a thousand? How old she was at the moment? For a couple of years. Well, so this is what I found out years later through her children. That she'd just miscarried and that someone else dubbed her in and made a call to the police that they let her listen to and she knew that person. It was a family member. She was devastated that a family member rang in. But it was all to do with this baby and the man she was with, this family member was having an affair with this man. It was just typical. You know, you think, you see things and she just miscarried because he kicked her down the stairs. This is what I'm talking about, the abuse, the abusiveness of... And she was at a place God knows in her head. This is a woman just miscarried, being kicked down, found out that partners having an affair was another member of the family, which was from outside the family anywhere. I don't want to name names or... And I'm like, well, actually, I get it. She had was fucked. Excuse my... You know, she was gone. I'm not making excuses for her and I'm not saying it was right what she did. But she was vulnerable, the police pulled her in. Listen to that. She knew exactly who that voice was. That was it. It was done. You know, years later, she has said through other people, she regrets it. She wish she didn't do it. So as far as concerned, that she thought we should do it. No, never. Never for any of my family member would do that. But she was the most crazy one that would have, would have, you know, the weakest link, like I said. So Stephen, when did you then get the charge? When did you start getting charged? I got arrested in June 1994. Was it nearly 30 years ago? Yeah. And your dad, he was already in prison at the time? Yeah. But your nana get 30 years as well? Yeah, she got life. They got the both of life because there was it now, you're like, wow, he's like, you can't, I could go on forever just saying that. But so what happened was, while everything was going on in our territory in Milan, a Gomorrah boss came up and said, right, there's a guy that lives in your territory. He's done this, that and that. It's not right. We're going to kill him. He's shown us up. He knows to what line to cross. He's already crossed us a little bit before. He's crossed it again. Can we have your permission to kill him? Now what people don't understand and realise is that if someone like that comes to you and you say no, you could potentially start a war with them. Or they'll go on. Why not? And what's your problem? And start some sort of feud. So it's not as easy as like, oh, he's bad for business, isn't it? You don't want that. You don't. So my nana and you know what? I was there at that meeting when that happened where they gave the go ahead. He was in the kitchen at my nana's house. But I was there by chance I was just a young girl getting a glass of water. That wasn't in the meeting sat there but that's how open they were. And I knew so much and I knew this guy was going to get killed in. I knew his kids. I knew his wife. And when people ask me what's the hardest thing that you've had to sort of carry. And it was not knowing that guy was going to get killed the next day and I couldn't do anything but what I was supposed to do to tell my family, oh no, you can't kill him. Go to the police. What was I supposed to do? I was 19. I was just a kid. You know, even I knew right from wrong but it was bigger than me. It certainly wasn't my decision to make and I think that's probably one of the things that I've carried that I felt really bad for could because that was a directly something that I knew about that my family had allowed to happen. Even and they got life for that. It all came out and they got life for it. Even though they didn't pull the trigger. Why did you end up charged with? I got charged in the UK with money laundering. How much? Well, they did 1.6 million what was in the bank. Yeah. And then I vote property here and then in Italy was organized crime. I got 10 years over that. What was the prisons in Italy like? Well, you would have been for the family name were you more secure in Italy? You probably got more respect from the prisoners because of it. But it was secure like a category prison here. It was the same. It was a unit for high high security. There was no training. There was no workshop sweatshop. There was no education. It was harsh in Italy in that way. You did it yourself. But then the other side of it was you didn't just get an hour outside. You got four hours outside. Two hours in the morning, two hours. That's where I did exercise. I used to get all the girls out in Italy with my ghetto blaster at the time they allowed me to have it from the UK. From the UK prison because I got extra diet from Durham to there. And I used to have them on the yard. Like I used to say, come on let's just do like cartwheels and headstands and be like and it's silly things like that. Because the kid would do but it made them it was euphoric for them. It made them feel so come down we used to have a bit of a run and then like a step class you know outside and that so that was good in that sort of sense. But then the crazy thing is the food so they know Italian's are very big on the food is like a cultural so they let us have a camping stove in the south to cook I mean you wouldn't dream that in the UK. You'd never be asking this blowing the prison off. Where's that? You just oh you're going to be cooking stove and then on your weekly shopping you could have wine. It was cartons it was the crappiest wine that you could have you know white or red. But some of the girls used to store it and used to sugar it and make it like martini is it or what. It was really strange like a birthday coming up with all this to get this. Have I actually some pretty good times in there? This sounds as if prisons you have a really good time you don't because you know what they take you they take your freedom away they take your family from you you never you suffer of course you suffer but yeah and you're in there but then you meet some of the best people that good friends in there they're in the same situation they've done stuff listen prison it's you're not you know if you you get punished by a judge yeah you go in prison you're there too people say rehabilitate it's not rehabilitation because you're going backwards it's habillitation because you want to go forward prison doesn't do that anyway it's within that person it's within yourself I was talking about this actually I work with a a university lecturer Dr Nicola Hardin at Lancaster and some of the girls I did a talk there and some of the girls are doing an assessment on me and my father actually he did a talk for them as well and we're saying about how it's so much harder for us not to commit a crime everyday life people it's hard for them to commit a crime and it's easy to stay on the lane and for people like us when you live the life like that I'm not saying it's me now it's not it's not you know but it's so much harder not to go beyond the law mm that's what I find you know with and I never thought about that concept before um because something came up with to do with that sorry Wang you were going to oh sorry what's the difference between the English prisons and the Italian prisons as I was saying that you could go out you could have go out four hours more in Italy you didn't have the other association in one room but you were locked in it in England you don't you're free to roam about till a certain time you can't cook in your room in the UK you wouldn't dream of doing that so Stephen you were in Durham prison you get extradited Italy and that's when you got another 10 yeah so what you were thinking then like when does it all sink and hear the light that you led I thought I'm never gonna get out I'm which obviously you do but you just thought oh my god I'm gonna be like in my 30s I'm gonna mess it's not just that it's my daughter it's my mum my daughter was so upset because of her it's like when he actually extradited me when I got released in Durham to face extradition charges I had like ninjas on the roof it was all can you imagine double cat A they all like saw me like and I got re-arrested bombed in the car and and I had this like trunk with me I'll never forget his black truck I don't even know where it come from it wasn't a suitcase but normally you just have bin liners HMP bin liners don't you see through so yeah see through I've still got some of them somewhere with all the stuff in it letters in that somewhere in the loft or wherever and so I ended up they took me back to Durham now I went to Charring Cosbury station I went to Bow Street Magistrate was open then charge me well they said like you're going back to Italy took me back to Durham took me back down went to Holloway so by this time I've been in this side two and a half years or whatever so I was like they won't let me out they won't let me fresh I said listen it's not my problem you've got no helicopter lines that's what can't he's have to it's not my problem I by law I should be able to go out and now it's not fair it's not right I kicked off a bit wow which I never had because the next time they took me down I went to Belmarsh they shut a whole wing it's men's prison they shut a whole wing in the hospital it's like a corridor it's about six cells they put a sheet on the on the window and said right if you go to that window it's on the yard the men won't leave you alone all night and I thought I bet they would do I bet there'd be more respectful than that but I didn't go to the window because I thought no then they stripped searched me and you know when you strip search I'm presuming it's the same with the men you have to strip search top half at one point put everything back on bottom half no we're everything off they took me everything off yeah we're everything off made me squat is a men's everything off everything off front turn round squat turn round round well women it's not women it's top half bottom half but they've made me strict naked and squat I was just coming from Doron prison metal detector didn't ask me if I was on my period sorry to be did it and it was like it was it was horrible degrading it's degrading yeah and I was like it was too women thankfully it wasn't men oh put your robe on and I was quite upset about even though I've been in it I was like that's wrong so I went I went back to Doron and I kicked off and when I spoke to my local MP I really massively I got an apology of the director general saying that should not have happened next time I went to Belmarsh I had the governess the marriage and everybody was at my door are you okay are you okay but I shouldn't that shouldn't have had to happen because they didn't know how to handle a woman prisoner so if you don't know how to handle you shouldn't have her in in Belmarsh prison but um of course it was the security thing that but my dad had escaped three times from prison and he was a big organisation wasn't it and I at the time I didn't understand he was like well it's me what am I going to do but I understand it now you know that so seeing you get extradited that will you want to go away certainly or will you want to stay in England because of my daughter I couldn't see my daughter then it was months before I could see her and when was the last time you spoke to your dad when you went to prison oh gosh it was years before I could just we just couldn't we could write I found and we did write but we couldn't speak because he was abroad he was in Portugal he was there for eight years what was the prison like over there for him bad they were like dungeons cold damn dungeons how did he not get extradited out there because he he was because he'd been trafficking in Portugal he got arrested from a whole team of Italians Spanish Portuguese but in the meantime we had money they found things and they rest in they so they charged him in Portugal they also sorry tried to make out that he was one of the ones that bombed the judging Falconi when I talked about at the beginning which he wasn't involved in that but they try you know what they like over that it'll make it this big mafia and um he he did eight years there and then extradited him to Italy to face murder which was the go ahead that he gave with my hand of the guy that was going to be killed in the area just by the sir so but then it got reduced to manslaughter because under the extradition treaty with Portugal they would take they would all the charges it wasn't the charge of murder but when he got to Italy the charging with murder and it was against the convention of human rights or whatever the laws you can't do one thing and then add on a charge of murder so you fought it against it and then you got down to manslaughter don't ask me how it's Italian law is completely different you know you've got a prosecutor that investigates the offence where here you've got CID whoever depends who investigate give it to prosecution prosecution and he's all about court in Italy the magistrates are the police and court Did your dad ever come in contact with Escobar? His cousin with his cousin when I was in America he did some dealings with him What about Gotti? What was he like? Was he proper? Yeah Yeah my father said he was he was a boss of bosses over there He was the biggest money maker them half he had ever had was he not? Yeah It's he so Gotti my dad had some dealings with him and Gotti wanted him to work for him with him for him but because my father was his own man he wouldn't have that and of course Gotti couldn't pressurise him with it because as I said before he's because you're a from the old country and you've got your own family and behind you he's not he was sort of untouchable I guess to Gotti which is quite rare that to have something like that because of of where you're coming from so I mean we've even been called mafia royalty in a way because we've got the blood of lines of of that How was your dad treated when he started speaking out? Of course well everybody's they weren't happy with it you know even though what did they say? So I talked about the family down south how we helped them through war and took all that risk so much and and then when my family got arrested got 30 years plus because of the military weapons so when they turned their backs on my father that was wrong because my aunties started talking they turned their backs on him as I said my father won't speak out against them but I think I do and it's wrong because how's it my father's fault that his sister did that and what so he's done so much for you and my family got so many years to help you through a war that you won and then we're just disregarded and I think all of us yeah but not my father it was it was wrong so there's so many things that people don't know about that um so you know a lot of people have said don't blame your father for doing that because look what's been around him and look and actually they did 13 years before he did he didn't just do it straight away like most people do he was 13 years into a sentence when he decided to collaborate so you never made a deal at the start to get a reduced sentence to then give other names no and he's never given anybody anybody else his name he's told them what and given them up ours you know more properties than that like I said to you so that's the difference of that you know when they say I mean I've had that oh she's I mean I have been called a grass what you are I've done my time what I'm not a grass because I've wrote in my book I've wrote about me and what's in court I've not wrote about anybody else I've not wrote any names I've not put anybody in it I've done my time so why are you calling me a grass you know all right yeah well they don't well actually you do write books because you're turning a life around you have nothing to do with it you get on with what you're doing I'll get on with what I'm doing I'm not hurting you so what was the main reason for your dad to then talk about his past or because he knew when my sister had wrote to him and said I feel like an orphan and that I think that pulled it it's like something clicked and you thought well I'm either going to come out he's near the end of his sentence I'm going to come out I'm going to go back to that I'm going to die I'm going to die in here and the only way he saw his life changing was if he gave up that life but that was the only way he was going to give it up and the irony is James that even now he has people they want to work with him illegally because they know he's like a money machine he they know how what he can do and what he can do so all this about you know oh yeah I did the the crime they know the other side upon my father is really bad he's gone against his what he was born into and he's gone against they still want to work with him no one knows that of course he won't because he's like no he's literally has changes I'm proud of him for that that he has changes like so that was like a confession what's that that yeah your father coming out at the end of his sentence like a confession of his sins kind of yeah he's sort of to be he could have come out without doing that that's what I'm trying to say to you but where would you go on what we did on come back into that life so what I'm saying is is not like one of these that you know as soon as you get arrested oh I'm going to talk about I'm not going to do time there's a lot of them isn't there yeah Jeff I suppose it's Samaribu Samaribu I think he was a hat man he fucking just gave everybody up yeah just like that you know it's like yeah that's right Samaribu yeah yeah yeah actually once someone put something that he wanted me to go on his podcast isn't he that he's 77 I think that yeah yeah yeah yeah um there was something about that how do you get out out that life how hard does that to get out that life is it either dead or prison yeah because it is over there especially I mean I was looking enough to have this life over here I'm not saying that a lot of my family are just leading normal lives now one's a dinner lady you know it's it's quite humbling and good for her she's out of it she could start selling stuff and knows all the contacts and connections and they make but then for what to go back in there this is the vicious circle all the time because sooner or later you go in and you know why because you got weakest links it's not you yourself it's your weakest links and you will end up inside it doesn't matter what and of course people get greedy I'll give up tomorrow I'll give up tomorrow I'll make a million and give up I'll make 500,000 and give up and they don't because they become greedy don't they and how much was the police seeing your dad was allegedly worth well they've got from deposit boxes I mean that's even without if you're talking about with property and about 10 million or something which wasn't a lot really if you think about but it was a lot in them days it's 30 years ago and he'd only he'd only been out three years he was in prison he had nothing and he started he lent money to buy this he lent gave money back and and within three years he was distributing in nine countries how much was he getting like a kilo of hash for do you know oh god it was in Lyra I can't he wasn't he was resin he was chocolate sold because he was direct from the sultan of chocolate in Morocco from the hose directly from him from the guy but he was a sultan of chocolate sultan is like a imperial like royalty aren't they over there I can't I actually can't remember what but he was in I mean we used to like to smoke it sometimes because the chocolate used to like you can make it like a ball yeah it's like putting I mean I used to smoke it that's back then you know he used to have a big thing in there he just jumped out he used to get soft black he used to be cool yes yeah that's it and it was we used to blow your fucking head off but then he was really strong we did that come on and kind of this kind of changed it changed all that yeah people don't want it I mean resin he's actually quite harsh as well so he'd either be that or resin so see when you go through all that then everybody's in prison how many he's actually get sent to prison probably about over 200 of us yeah but that's that's majorer yeah like that is majorer that's a whole family gone I mean do you know what though the area that Piazza Parallepi was the area in Milan that my family ran so everybody respected that area no-one would come in to try and ask the shopkeepers for a being an extortion and trying to get money they wouldn't die and if they did the shopkeepers would come to my man and go they're trying to get money out of us all right someone now they say right you and they're like oh I'm so sorry so sorry and they're like run away scared of and and my nonna used to look after everyone in the area and even now they say when I've gone back oh miss your family they used to look after us now the Albanians are in don't care they kill your grandma so it's like it's a continuation of a vicious circle and I'm not saying it's right and I'm not saying it's because it's wrong but actually is it better the devil you know than the devil you don't they will always always be a mafia I can't see any way that that could ever be taken out because they'll always be someone else they'll never be taken out I've got to ask that question do you think it'll ever be taken out no I don't because it's about family it's not about working gangsters in a group of gangsters they're all out for each other when it's a family it's a family business what was it like getting out oh god I got out I was actually because it was illegal technicality I got out which was really good before my time and they told me on the Saturday morning I got two bin liners so after four years of category A I couldn't even open a door myself or I just got chucked out on the street I had to walk the end of the road and got on a bus and everybody's looking at me oh she's just come from that place and I was like oh shit it's that it's embarrassing but I was free it was a hot day I mean it was June June the 13th 1998 and I remember the day it was hot and I walked out it was I felt for a while it was really surreal it was really I was quite I think I had a bit of post-traumatic stress in a way because it was so I've become so institutionalised you don't realise how much but as I said even opening a door I used to have all my doors open apart from a front door I couldn't have my doors closed I used to clean on a Friday proper clean like spring clean my house because I was used to cells I used to move with that as a cat A when the IRA started trying to escape not if you remember in the 90s they tried and tried to escape so security really stepped up so they used to move the cat A's every month to a different cell so I'm sure you want me to clean every bastard cell you know and they're like oh yeah get in you know she's in there she's cleaning scrubbing the walls and you know in here like and you've got it because I was like oh like because it doesn't matter how much you scrub them it's you still feel dirty and you're in a cell but like you say it wasn't a 14 year old you possibly could have been institutionalised did you know you were coming out and you were going to make changes or was it difficult I came out I was 28 I used to have guys write to me from prisons in the UK all the time I'm like this I'm like that one day I got a letter from a guy never said how old he was so I said oh I'm a prisoner I hope the treat in your right and most people think I have an Italian accent or I don't really know much English had I come over a few years later I would have but I was nine years old so I've got the typical language show and they said I thought oh he sounds quite nice I might at most of me so my husband wouldn't like it thanks but no thanks but my husband wouldn't like it so I thought I'm not going to be cruel and nasty but I'm going to say shut them down but with Frank I was like he sounds quite nice I might just have a pen pal anyway I said oh you sound like an older guy nice and I thought and I remember one of the women the women saying oh you don't know that okay next thing he writes but well I'm only 32 or something and you know but and I was like oh my god and then he sent me a picture and I was like oh he's so fit and I was like oh he's so nice and then he said look Marisa I've got something to tell you he'd robbed Leonard Juizin he's called Leonard Juizin Dura in Blackpool he was from Leeds he didn't know I'm robbery and he got caught he ran into a house and he said look Marisa he could have been full of rugby players I didn't know but he was a no woman and I held her hostage he said but I'm not an aunt I'm not a thing actually and then actually there's an article this woman saying oh the gentleman and you know gentleman robbing was making me a cup of tea he was mortified you know the daughter came from work and he was holding them and then anyway he gave himself up in the end and but he felt really bad that he said to me trying not meant to say to me and thought I'm not that and you know it's all right and then it's time we used to write and you know what people say and then I had to really beat the humble pie with that because I got to know so well through letters sometimes when you're face to face with people you think you know them but when you're writing everything down you don't tend to hold back so with letters so I fell in love with him he fell in love with me he fell in love with him he told me changes life he was not going to come out to all that yeah he had a few hiccups with people that I'd let him down on the outside but blah blah blah sorry next thing I came out in 98 we were still writing I went I got extra diet we were still writing he was still writing to me Italy I came out went to see him he was a Catae so I had to go through all the thing of getting the police coming round and saying well why you do I said well I love him I did love him but it was like a love of at the time no I wasn't even lost it was we were both in a bad place vulnerable we needed each other I did love him but how did you get your address I was in H&P it was all over the newspaper H&P Durham she's in H&P Durham so people just send you letters yeah yeah it's fucking creepy as well but I don't understand why don't you just send can we have your autographs do you want a canary like no you know do you want it was like really weird request like what and um so that's what happened with Frank and then I did fall in love with him and do you know what for he's quite he's quite a ruthless guy I mean Charlie Bronson put him in his book and I think he's in legends about how he was like the real deal and he was he was ruthless and he was in like on the seg all the time he didn't finger to the prison which he made his prison time so much harder because he just wouldn't you know he wouldn't stand for it and he's nonsense from the screws or he was in a shit protest he did everything he was on the roof when they did the riots but you attracted to that no because I wanted to try and get away from that yeah but seeing you talk about the daddy issues and you'll tend to see that those go down the route of an overpowering man or is that they tend to be quite aggressive or the kind of beast fucking loopy like did you I saw a soft side of him did you yeah anyone I started visiting he was soft as shit excuse me to me yeah yeah yeah there's a lot but women make men soft yeah yeah women they don't see that side and he has such a kind generous beautiful side to him is he still alive no he died he got shot and what's his name Frank Burley was he a proper got shot in Leeds yeah I don't know well he was he was but you're still with him when he got shot I was three months pregnant my son never met his dad which is that I went through it was a hard time it was harsh because I just come out of prison and I got myself in a situation where I'm in love with this gangster that he told me that he was out of that then he came out but his ego got too much for himself he was like and then people were trying to put he was like well this he wanted to open a night club in Leeds with his brother he wanted and he wanted to go legit but people were putting spanners in the works for him he said well I've just done time I kept my mouth shut and they're still trying to and then he got it was just tick for tat there was shootings in Leeds in the early 2000s if you look back on it there's a lot of shootings and that and um he was one of them but he'd just gone and shot someone in the leg they were running away from the gun had this was already a fault with it it had gone off they went over six foot fence the guy behind him that was with him had the gun because Frank passed it to him and there was a caravan in it and it was it was 11 o'clock at night there was a caravan and a garage they'd gone to the end of it and on the drive there were people saying goodbye to some they lived there so they had to pull back to hide as the light came over the shot went off and it hit Frank at the back of the head now I always thought there's a lot of enemies at that time and I thought this had been done purposely because he had a lot of enemies but then I've been told that it wasn't purpose and it wasn't and the guy who did it I want to see him and some of his family members did see him and they believed him and I said well I want to see him and they wouldn't let me they wouldn't let me meet the guy that shot Frank he was an accident well I want to see him I don't know I felt like I needed to for myself to see to feel it yeah you don't know yeah I felt it was legit on that yeah they wouldn't let me and then I asked around about him it's always long gone so I can presume what that means because he knew a lot about people as well so I don't know I'm making I'm surmising here with my own opinion if you've not involved the first thing you do is go to the meet the first thing you do is listen no no no but if you've got something to hide these you can this day back yeah how does that make you feel giving birth to your daughter prison pregnant with your son husband dead and then we'll go back to the karma thing like how much do you think plays a part in your life I think well when I'm doing criminology now I've talked about as I said it's like a therapy I've never really been to well I have but a very short time I was pregnant when I lost Frank my mum dying I went to speak to someone but it's not even you talk you talk I'm not ashamed of saying it you know it's like you've got how much you have to go I've never taken pills probably I should have but you know I've never have thankfully I've never had to although I'm hormonal menopausal now and I'm on HRT I've had to be because I'm going crazy here but you're I think there's a pivotal moment when Frank died I'd already decided in prison I didn't want that lie unfortunately I was in love with someone that was carrying on in that even though I knew that he didn't want that but I loved him so again loyal to him not that I want but I didn't do anything to end want to end up in that so I was completely detached he didn't involve me in anything to do with whatever he was doing I was back at home and back in Blackpool he was in Leeds for that pivotal moment was when he died and it's completely so sorry I've not got over this yet that's okay he died then that was a moment that I thought I'm never gonna date a criminal and never gonna date a cop I always knew that anyway with a cop but I'm never gonna get a pleas man I'm never gonna date a criminal so I've dated electricians I've dated my husband's a mechanical engineer you know he's he's got an edge to him you know he's you know he's so you need that I think normal but he's normal anyway I'm not normal if a man's coming into your life and he's soft you're going to walk right up the top or you're going to run a mile do you know what I mean yeah that you've been through like I say you're driving about with fucking bazookas you're not wanting just the average joe who's because you're living a lie then because we all want a quiet life but something kind of misses where you think hmm I still want a bit of something do you know what I mean it doesn't have to be as extreme as shootings and drugs and all the other madness but you still need a man you've been through men who's protected you your whole life you can't be and this is only me having my own opinion I don't think you could ever be with somebody who was soft or it they couldn't the thing is a lot but I've been I've been out with a few I've not been out with many anyway but with a few and they've been quite big characters as well they've been quite well known some of them and I think what attracted them to me in the first place became a problem for them because I am so strong-willed and so independent I never thought I'd get married I never thought any guide ever possibly because like I said my past would always become a problem even though it's never in the face but I've wrote a book and people know who I am and you know you get other people asking or being polite and nice and oh well what does he want do you know what I mean it becomes a problem even if it's work or it's so then again it's a turn on for a lot of men as well powerful women strong independent and I've had them that just want your notches and I'm like oh you I'll keep you the married but I'll keep you there and I'm like do you think I will be the second best yeah I'll keep me in that apartment and I'll say no bye it's like yeah and I'll say don't insult me you know I'd rather live in my council house thank you I've got a bit more you know now my fridge is full I'm rich that's how I see it I like nice things I've got to a point where I can have and I live in a beautiful house now I used to clean houses where I live in now you know and it's but I'm grounded with it I've never but I've noticed sorry I've noticed there's a lot of envy mm-hmm and I've got to be so careful because oh I should be having that if she's she's dealing because straight away how could I possibly if for years I was so paranoid of having anything nice because I thought they're going to even though I wasn't doing anything I remember watching the full on blow Johnny Dey I think it was a true story I think they were making like $60 million I don't know if it was a year or a month or they had $60 million but they ended up with nothing ended up just with the cheap tracks so it's on not a pot to piss in that when you're getting millions of pounds passing through your hands monthly when you're traveling about doing deals to then cleaning houses in Blackpool that do you even remember that life or does it sink in that it obviously wasn't meant to be because when I done bad things I gambled all my money never felt real enemy I felt as if I didn't the fucking deserve it now I work hard and I appreciate it don't you think it's a bit like monopoly money yeah it's fake doesn't it it's mental because it's like even though you see it it's like it's not mine and it's not and you don't know yeah it's I feel anything that's come from that life I don't really want it it's like dirty money for me now I don't want it it's saying that though people might think oh well but but now you're earning money from but it's not just about it's my experience of it's your life it's my life yeah and you haven't done the damage and it's like I've never even wanted to do that I've been pushed in a way to have to do that by society you know society does want to know that you know did they're behind the books they do want to know because they're intrigued about that life yeah crime sales doesn't matter what yeah the biggest status on Netflix is true of crime and but I then I get oh is it really true you should tell him the truth and I'm like because of who the hell goes out then hop a collins of you know there's lawyers being through it there's things in court you can't make stuff like that or they're not going to do a book you know it's not you can't unless you solve published you can just write the shit you want you know I'm not saying I don't know how that works I'm presuming I have to go free legal stuff but but it's you know it's it's not just like that and I'm thinking God Jesus Christ blasphemy that that you know it's like how can you you can't make stuff up and then it does but how would you want to do that when you've been through the shit that you have what's your biggest regret my children my mum and my mum she died of cancer she was really poorly in it's 10 years this uh Christmas just gone it's 10 years I didn't realise it was 10 years I was in an interview for an Italian newspaper last year and she said oh how long I said oh my mum died in 2012 she went oh that's 10 years well I burst out crying it's crazy how I'm grieving you know you're sort of all right and then slapping the face 10 years where's that gone um it's my mum her and upset I put her through and she had to look after my child when I was in prison Laura my daughter my kids are good now touch rod frankly they're out of they don't know Frank's a mechanical engineer sorry I've just gone for one thing to another but and Laura's in care as in she's a carer she has got a degree in travelling tourism management but she's more of a caring person and then she's she's got my grandson single parents so she's an unlimited thing she can do in a way but so the good kids and my son's come out even though he's from you know from my side my both parents you know people say it's a DNA did you worry for that do you worry for that yeah me my son does a time where he was going down wrong path and I had to pull him in massively and the people that were involved with him tried to tell me well if it went somewhere else we couldn't look after him so don't give a shit you're not doing that I don't care where he goes and I will do something about it because you're not touching my my child not after and that's I was like well did repercussions is you're gonna think that I'm involved in it you're gonna think I'm the one that's the boss of it because they won't you know what I mean and the only reason they don't is because I lead a normal a clean life so there's all that to think about and all the repercussions of everybody else in the family and thankfully my husband actually saved him I always feel because he gave him a job I'm a mechanical engineer and that's what he's doing now I'm good on him see me your dad get out you worried that you get sucked back in again no my dad yeah when he came out of prison did you ever think did you I was shocked that he didn't were you relieved yeah if he did do you think you'd have been back because of your loyalty no no no way I'm not going inside again that's absolutely no way am I going back in there I mean did you actually because I couldn't it was my loyalty and it was you know there's nothing I love my dad but no you've already had that I have that from me it's not going to happen again tell me this even though I know it's a mad life do you miss it I miss my family I've missed how it used to be I miss 20 of us at the table my nonna cook came from six in the morning with an apron and then organising a shipment he's crazy you know and she yet she she was so ruthless yet she'd give you a last penny and have another 20 people eat you know at the table it's crazy people don't understand that side of it but um that's what I miss my family I miss the way we used to be I miss he's never about material stuff how many levels a new mafia is there especially your family so you've got you've got the the soldiers lieutenants you're not general's and then you've got the the chief haven't you is that the don so the yeah that was my father and my nonna in a way she sounds like a proper badass that she was oh she was she but as I said she was so soft as well and giving you know she's scrapped my head and looked for nits at 22 this habit this is really crazy you see what I mean it's like and I didn't have nits but it was a thing of like when you were younger she'd be like looking for them I mean I did have them when you're 70s and you had to shave your head then you didn't have all these powders and lotions and you know but she's still at that age she's scratched my head and then start looking at what you're looking at nonna have you got any nits it's like no sorry it's just silly it's crazy you know to think and people don't see that side and of course there's that ruthless side and then but you're talking about people they're grown up into that they're born into that she didn't know anything I knew different I knew right from wrong and I still made my decisions and like I said I'm not trying to you know I'm not I'm not a victim in this I'm not I did do wrong I put my hands up I've done time but how much more am I supposed to pay for it yeah there's only some you can't keep living in the past what makes a good soldier in the mafia loyalty again being on time you know discipline loyalty knowing you can trust that person if you if you're in a situation where you know we used to go go round with armored cars and weapons in your cars because you didn't trust anyone even though you're quite strong and people were feared yeah there'd always be that crazy person that would come along and think ah I might be able to do it and there was but in fact they put he put about 100,000 lira which is about 80,000 pound on my dad's head and my dad was so he said I'll give him double just to walk away I was so insulted that's all on work and he was just some miserable guide it wasn't even he was affiliated to another family which was it against my family down southern Italy but he was a nobody but that's where you get that who would want to come up ranks a new thing they're so but they're not they're not and I guess you know businessmen don't want to become gang criminals or like they're not going to work he has to be either around the criminal attract that becomes the businessman because the businessman has never got it in him to be ruthless like someone that's been born into that line yeah what's the worst thing you've seen where you're involved in a mafia the last thing the worst thing the worst I guess one of them was knowing that guy was going to die why do you think that's the one thing that stays in your mind were you close to this man or did you know him because I knew him and I knew the family and he had children so I felt really bad I did feel really really bad and I still do you know to this day that they didn't grow up with a dad but then he made his choices didn't he he was old enough to know who he was going up against and what he was doing the risks he was taking so that wasn't on me was it to I guess to carry it on my shoulder it's just hard when you know someone's going to die you can't stop it and you see when you think you're at their family growing without a dad then while you're pregnant with your son then has dad gets killed did you see the resemblance did that play a massive effect on your mind yeah I used to have a vehicle and dream just crazy this for years of running with my dad police chasing us running for an airport to shoot my dad he's on the ground and I'm grabbing him crying it was the same to every small detail it was the same I didn't have it all the time but it was over years and then that happened with Frank and he got shot I always thought my dad was going to get shot and die it's obviously this subconscious thing of the life he was living and then that happened with him and it completely destroyed me I'd only been out the year before from prison that I kept going I was surviving surviving surviving my son obviously and my daughter of course but I was pregnant with him so I had to keep going I don't know what I would have done if I wasn't pregnant to be honest so it seemed you came out at all and then you start working on yourself you're talking about being a criminologist and digging deep and kinder working within that was there a lot of tears a lot of regret a lot of pain there's buckets of tears I can't cry anymore I can't cry anymore is that a good thing or a bad thing it's a bad thing I want to be able to cry I can't I just and it makes it look like I'm really hard I'm not but when I do cry I can't stop I could cry a whole day but I just I can't I can't I can't I wish I could maybe I should go and see someone or I don't know but I'm keeping it together you know I'm quite levelheaded I'm doing what I'm doing I know what I want and what I don't want so yeah but there's been buckets of tears and of course the ultimate was when Frank died How's your relationship with your dad now? It's good it's the best it's ever been I love him I can't I can't you know I'm not gonna I know the background I know what he's been through I know what he's done and what he hasn't done and he's not a he's not a bad person either he's done bad things but you know people say I say oh well you're not that person anymore but we are we're still the same people we just change our ways and we change what we do when we change but we're still the same people so you can't just change your personality we grow into ourselves don't we and you get mature yeah people change I've spoke to some of the baddest men some of the some killers some drug lords and they're very great they're very painful but they can't change it people say oh the race you destroyed listen they can't change it but what they do now is speaking schools go to prisons tell people not listen that's a fake life nobody ever gets out ever like I've done over 300 interviews and what have you read nobody's ever gets out I don't know one person who's at the top of their game and then disappeared and enjoyed the rest of their life because there's something in the back of their subconscious mind I believe that keeps them there until they face the repercussions of what they've done in life but karma I don't know if it's real or not but I know when I've done bad things my life was a disaster I'm doing good things now I still have moments it's still always cracks up here because I'm in a good place I'm not doing bad things I handle them better yes it's just weird that the way life is I don't know why we're here nobody really knows what the fuck is going on but genuinely don't I've been in so many different lives I've been so many different characters I think we're just all acting it we find a character that we actually like and then we just stick with that one I know I'm not harming anybody anymore I know I'm not harming myself especially with work abuse but what I do know is what I'm doing is a positive what I'm doing I know I'm making legit money money's not everything it's an illusion do you know what I mean you've had that you've lost that and you realise it's all fake it's fucked I've had some men on here but I'm making a mwy in a month not going to put the piss in and they're happiest I've ever been so I don't have all the answers to it but what I do know is just trying staying in your lane to be a better person that you were yesterday is difficult because there's so much competition there's so much social media there's so much track I can compete with the Jonesies but when it all boils down yet just fucking try and be as happy as you can be whether you've got fucking zero money or whether you've got a million pounds because I've met people who's billionaires and unimaginable bastards spoke to a man who's 25 years in the street and he was telling me more jokes than anybody I'd ever met in my life so life's just the way you see it go through your whole life look what he thinks speaking about it let's it bring back a lot of motion cos I was obviously the reason that if you've run a wee bit longer than more so yeah no every time when I do talks it's quite draining for me as well but there it's like a therapy as well that's myself as well cos I've had to suppress it for the 10 years after suppress so much and now I'm able to actually I can get this out so in a way it is like a therapy in a way and if it helps someone else that's my even if it's one person no good to prison that's went to Lancaster prison I've been to Pentelville the guys prison I mean I like to go into women's prisons and and they're sort of like well I'm going to admit it she's able to do that let's see I might do you a criminology degree I might do you know it's just giving them that little bit of hope and why not especially when you're in there cos you just think my life is over yeah how do you learn from the past to then give yourself a better future the experience of it isn't it don't repeat certain things and try and just just enjoy life the simple life you know you go for a walk on the front in Blackpool you know it's cold but it's beautiful that's in your own glass go to Dave Francis that's so much time down there yeah it's pretty cold up here so you know it's just as simple the kids laughing my grandkids having them on my grandkids I'm so family we need normally have them every weekend cos Jim's got his children and my grandkids age so he started later in life so we have them all out one time we'd buy two older ones like six of them and we were like whoa but we wouldn't have it any other way does that feel a lot about old time when you're cooking with your Nana when you get table thoughts and I'm cooking for my grandchildren oh your meatballs and Nana nanny they call me oh get your meatballs oh yeah they all start yeah yeah I'm like it's nice even though I've stood there three hours doing them you know it feels good I like that yeah and I want them to feel that that family feeling and they can come to me I always say you can come to nanny anything I'll never judge you you know I'll always one's ten ones four I think the four ones so clever she's so um so on on it and they're do you know and I'm proud of them and I just think like my children whatever they're doing I'm proud of them it's hard it's hard for my son being told you know mum's that your dad's that it's like he at one point I had to show well what am I like you had an issue with this person of having to show it's just tossed around I guess isn't it as well having to show I was like you don't have to show anything to anyone he's a good kid you know he's a he's a bit of a scrap I know you know he's got tattoos and good looking last six foot two and but easily could have you know and I had a lot of you know for people who said mostly it's positive stuff ah you know Marisa's son aren't you say everywhere the girls like they go drinking you're Marisa's daughter you're Marisa's son you know obviously I've wrote that and the the series so but before that I didn't even know I didn't want anyone to know who I was I didn't want none of that but you're embarrassed I just wanted to be left alone yeah and ashamed not embarrassed I was ashamed of like keep my head down the judgement yeah but then I'm window when I do my talks now that's okay when I do my talks a lot of the students have said you're owning it now I thought yeah actually I'm owning it now it's on my terms it's like if I do interviews newspaper we control it now with Amanda you know they can't just write what they want they can't like they used to that's what they did so that's a that's good that I can and I must guess owning it more now working people by your book Amazon Waterstones probably Amazon's the best so that's going to be getting turned on at a film yeah it's series came out this year last year last year in April but would you a possible film as well Tuesday those series these films in the future possibly I don't know I'm sort of tied in some contract with I have been asked with Amazon Prime so it's a bit of a yeah a bit in the future listen hopefully man you've lived that life who's will make money from it legit like I know people can be embarrassed or ashamed to think but it comes a time you like you say you're more open to be talking about it now and that shows that you are healing ready yeah that's the main thing because you're always going to think about the pain in the past people say oh stop living in the past I preach the power of now which is all about living in the present moment but if I'm happy my negative thoughts will kick in and tell me that I shouldn't be happy and sometimes it can ruin my day it can for a day two days and then I go wait a minute I'm doing that thing again these days for me used to run months months then it was drinking then it was drugs then I didn't want to do anything so I'm in a great place still but I still struggle I still fucking fear I just can't be asked that what have you learnt the most out of that life to try and be a better person really I think as in learning to accept myself not to please everybody else I feel like and not to try and save tormented souls because I feel like I've had relationships after my father I suppose it's probably slightly sort of like my father like you were saying before there's an element there of frank being like I've always been a magnet for criminals I've not that I've gone out looking for them they've looked for me they've actually found me all the time and I've gone oh well you know so yeah I it's just learning to sit right in my own skin and to not be ashamed anymore of my past because ultimately I'm also a good person as well you know I try and do good deeds and I don't write my way to tell anyone or show them I mean all these people they'll go and give the homeless person some food and then record it apple now I'm not recording it it's for me it's not I don't need to to show you know it's it's not but I just want to be good for my family and and just live the rest of my life with no hassles and no you know not looking behind my shoulder that's good fair player that for anybody that's watching it's maybe stuck in a leaf of cream or out a leaf of cream but try and move forward like what advice would you have for them get out of that environment get away from the people around you if you can and get out of that environment that is the first place to start you cannot try and change if the environment around you is still the same would you like to finish up on anything well thank you for having me it's been good and just you know please don't commit crime it's not worth it that's a lesson for coming on and telling your story that I thoroughly enjoyed that you've definitely lived life I can see you're a proper person I wish you nothing but fucking success and whatever dreams you go for in the future I hope you achieve everyone of them God bless you thank you James thank you