 Welcome to the backstory on justice in Longmont. My name is Tim Waters and as a volunteer for Longmont Public Media I enjoy the opportunity to interview leaders, policy makers, decision makers, activists in the community on topics of interest and relevance to the community. And this in this morning I have the good fortune of interviewing four of the principal leaders in Longmont Community Justice Partnership is focused on schools and what does restorative justice look like in our schools. So welcome to the panel this morning to Kathleen McGoy who is the director to officer Stacy Stallings who is our school resource officer and a champion of community justice or restorative justice in the partnership in our schools to Abby Winkler a graduate of Silver Creek High School in Shenandoah Wa who is a rising junior at Silver Creek High School. Now those are insufficient introductions but there's at least your names. Now I'm going to ask you to tell the viewers of this a little bit more about yourselves. Let's start. Kathy will start with you. Go to Stacy, Abby and Shenandoah. Tell us about who you are and how you got into this. Yeah thanks so much Tim and I appreciate your invitation to have us on the podcast. For me in in 2012 I moved to Boulder to finish writing my master's thesis and prior to that I'd been studying and working in international peace building for nine years. So in my writing I was really focused on this approach to peace work called conflict transformation which says that conflict is something natural that's always going to happen between humans but when we approach it a certain way it can be an opportunity for growth and new perspective and ultimately transformation of everyone involved instead of seeing conflict as an external problem that we can solve and it'll magically go away forever. So when I discovered restorative justice I thought oh this is it this is conflict transformation that has the power to both change individuals lives and change systems. Did you finish that master's degree? I did finish the master's degree and my thesis got published as a book so it's out there in the world and yeah then I started volunteering here at Longmont Community Justice Partnership and I after two months of volunteering I became a bilingual case coordinator and then eventually became the executive director. Yeah well I was in I was in education too long to not want to know the end of that story but about your your master's thesis. Stacey tell us about you or Officer Stallings tell us about you I should. That's okay Stacey is just fine. I have been with Longmont PD for I actually just on my 13 year anniversary so I've been here for 13 years as an officer started out on patrol and then in 2014 went into the school resource officer assignment at Silver Creek. Prior to being a police officer I I didn't have any experience in law enforcement other than my occasional personal contact with police officers you know like like normal but and and not always through great decisions to be honest so you know I kind of had a wide variety of experiences there you know before that I was kind of trying to find what what I still wanted to be and and and I had this idea that I needed to wait until I was a responsible adult to make those kind of decisions and that just came later in life for me so I didn't start this career until I was 32 so since being an SRO at Silver Creek well let me back up I got involved with restorative justice and introduced to restorative justice I'd never heard of it in my life before becoming an officer I don't remember hearing anything about it in academy in police academy and then when I got to Longmont and we had our orientation when we were brand new officers we have a month of orientation before we go into our field training program and that's when I learned about restorative justice and that was when LCJP would come and give us you know a little two hour training sessions in our orientation and and then I referred maybe a couple of cases when I was a new officer and the first time I sat in a community group conference I was hooked and I thought this is this that was amazing I have never walked out of a courtroom to be honest with you after testifying and thought that was amazing so to me that I I felt transformed as an officer and I could see that the transformative process that was happening between you know the the refer the responsible parties and the harmed parties that were involved and and I wanted to do more of that and so when the opportunity came up that I could be a liaison with LCJP that's a collateral duty that the police department offers on occasion when there's openings I I took that opportunity and have been involved ever since and you know just kind of been trying to push education out and refer you know cases when I can to restorative justice and learning more about it and now you know implementing it in a high school is you know I'm learning more about how how it integrates and how to um almost more of the business side of it you know instead of just being the referring officer who gets the to who gets to sit in the conference and enjoy the benefits um so I've got to learn more of like the front end work of restorative justice which has been eye-opening and and you know I've grown a lot I think learned a lot and I'm hoping we get to continue or we're going to drill down you made reference to some of the activities we're going to drill down on those in just a minute because I think that's an important part of the story what the you know how does it unfold but Abby tell us about you I was actually like reconnected with her so through safety I found out that she had started the restorative justice program um in the school I'm going to tell I started graduating with LCGP and um got going with that and I had previously experienced in the criminal justice system I was a um I testified as a witness for a criminal case and really just kind of saw the negative sides of our criminal justice system um and how uh unsatisfactory the process was for um both parties of the case and once I was introduced to restorative justice it really opened my eyes that there were other opportunities out there and that there was a much healthier way of approaching approaching that systems of conflict so um that was kind of my whole beginning to it and um I never sat on a case specifically at the school but I was still involved in volunteering and providing resources and stuff like that um and have been continuously involved in as a community member through LCGP and now I'm actually on um the National Youth Committee for um the National Restorative Justice Conference so and Abby you're a Silver Creek High School graduate where are you going to school now I know I'm card amazing university study chemistry I wanted to be at you here this year all right Shannon Doa tell us about you um so I was first introduced to restorative justice in my freshman year at Silver Creek um and we learned about it in just our basic health class and it sounded pretty interesting to me but I hadn't had any interaction with it with any of the harmed parties or the referred parties or anything like that um until my sophomore year where um I ended up being in this conflict with one of my friends where I was the responsible party and she was the harmed party and going through the process of restorative justice was just so much more satisfying and more just involved for both parties and I really felt like my side of the story was understood by the harmed party and I really feel like I understood where the harmed party was coming from in that meeting and I feel like I learned a lot more from the process than I would have if it was just a regular write-up and went on and so I continued that involvement in restorative justice by training to be a community member and um I have not participated as a community member at the meeting but I am listed I'm ready to participate whenever a meeting comes up so uh just to put a contemporary frame around the frame right we're talking about restorative justice in schools in the larger context of our not just the American society but globally they're in the context of this we're in the moment of this interview for this podcast uh questions about justice what it is and what it isn't and how we achieve it is uh in my lifetime I'm an old man I don't think I've ever experienced the cut of intensity and attention that questions of justice and balance the fairness and equity uh have have ever been as as intense or as relevant or as important as they are right now so when you hear a police officer talk about that was amazing or that was transformative and you talk and you hear from Stacy and Abby talking or from Shenandoah and Abby talking about uh what there was to learn and what was satisfying in the pursuit of justice those don't that language isn't used very often today at least in the contemporary rhetoric about policing enforcement the pursuit of justice so now we need to drill down on how do we get to the place where people have those experiences characterized by that kind of language Kathleen tell us about how what is restorative justice how does it play out in schools and we'll talk in another podcast about how it plays out in the community and why should good why should the community of Longmont care about this yeah thanks thanks for that great question so at its core um what you've already heard referenced by by Shenandoah Abby and Stacy is that restorative justice in its essence is a framework to bring together those who are responsible for crime who have caused harm with those who have been impacted or harmed so in the criminal justice system we use the terms offenders and victims and in the restorative framework we use referred a responsible person and then harmed person and the unique angle of restorative justice is that we not only introduce the directly harmed individual but also members of the community that have also been impacted by an incident and we give those people the directly and indirectly harmed individuals a central role in what needs to be what needs to happen to create justice and the responsible person is expected to take responsibility to be held accountable for the harms that they have caused so in Longmont what that looks like is our law enforcement officials police officers working in any department so school resource officers patrol officers detectives are all able to make direct referrals to restorative justice upon learning more from the involved individuals the harmed and responsible parties and they can make that direct referral instead of writing a ticket or making an arrest so it's a complete diversion around the criminal justice system they are looking for those those primary criteria is the person who caused the harm or the offender taking responsibility for their actions and is the harmed person okay with the case not going to court if those two criteria are met then the officer can make a referral to lcjpe or the school's version can look slightly different than this but lcjpe can play a supporting role and then the case gets matched with two trained facilitators those facilitators will meet with each harmed and responsible person separately before bringing them together with trained volunteer community members that was the role that Shenandoah referenced and what we call a community group conference and in that community group conference along with the officer and the involved parties the facilitators and the community members those are all the the folks present we talk about what happens who is affected and how and what can be done to repair the harmed relationships so following that group meeting the responsible person will have a contract usually with three to five specific actions that they can take to both repair the harmed relationships give back to the community and also demonstrate learning that they've learned something that will influence their decisions moving forward and if they complete their contract then they won't have any criminal record from that incident if they don't complete the contract or they reoffend while under contract then the case goes back to the referring officer so in in long when I would say if you if you care about giving victims and community members a voice in justice then then you care about this program and if you care about keeping offenders out of the system by holding them accountable and offering them a way to learn from their choices then you care about this program and finally in the context that we're in right now if you care about giving police more tools to do their job and bringing them together with community to create a sense of respect and accountability then you care about restorative justice we're going to I'm going to I'm going to follow up on this with both you and officer spellings in terms of cost and benefits because I because there's an economic side to this as well as a human and social side and I think it's important you know and I to the degree that you can talk about that in just a minute but I do want to shift this conversation to to officer spellings because what you just did was give us a new way to think about justice not as vengeance not as retribution not as not as enforcement for the purpose of being punitive not incarceration justice defined very differently and I'm guessing that might have something to do why an officer would would go into this experience and use words like amazing and transform and if there was ever a time when we'd like to hear our law enforcement our front line police officers have more amazing transformative experiences it's right now as the as the father of a son who is on the job for eight years I have some idea of how tough as a family member how tough it must be today for for our police officers so officer spellings talk about what does this mean as an alternative as options as tools for policing in ways that pursue justice in ways that Kathleen has presented well I would say that it's I mean you know just like all of our other tools it has to be the appropriate tool for the situation of course and and and I think everyone wherever you stand on these issues can agree that it it's it probably doesn't work for everything and there are the key criteria I kind of think that one one roadblock that we consistently run into when we're when I am wanting to make a referral to restorative justice or I'm wondering why we aren't using it more why we can't use it more and I think something that comes up fairly regularly that I run into is that so many people don't take accountability and that's a key piece to you know being able to have the restorative justice use the restorative justice practices instead of the traditional criminal justice system and and I think that that's kind of something that has happened over many years and and you know that's one of your constitutional rights to remain silent and we're kind of taught you know and especially now that's even coming out more don't talk to the police don't don't admit things you know it kind of depends on what how you were brought up but so many times I mean I've even heard parents at at the school say don't talk to them not just me as at SRO but you know administrators the principal or system principal don't talk to them don't write anything down don't and so unfortunately I think that's something that that we have to work on as a society is is it being the the okay thing to do to accept to take responsibility for our actions and yes there may be consequences and you know being willing to handle or deal with those consequences and and make things right so that's I think one of the biggest problems that we run into as police officers is that being just such a it's a it doesn't it doesn't work without that piece and so we can't use restorative justice more often if if people don't do that but you know as in terms of the positive things about restorative justice that we could truly change our relationship with our communities nationwide is this is very unique I don't I don't know if you know that Tim I mean they're in very very few places in the country our police officers allowed to make a direct referral to restorative justice and have this tool in their tool belt so we're we're very fortunate here and that we're able to use that but and and it just gives us more options because sometimes it's not you know you've got some some someone you're dealing with who is is showing remorse and they're you know upset about what they did and they're taking responsibility for it they're wanting to make it right right then but maybe the victim in the situation is like no I'm not just going to accept an apology and call it a day like you know I'm upset whatever the crime may be so you know we have to take some action but is that someone that now I'm gonna have to you know charge with a felony because this victim does want to see some kind of justice and you know I always have discretion as an officer but the victim has one of the loudest voices that we should be listening to and so oftentimes we do follow that their lead on what they wish to happen and that's kind of one of the other components that we we see as a roadblock sometimes sometimes as officers we want to make a referral to restorative justice and we think it's perfect perfectly appropriate it would be very successful but sometimes we can't get the victims to agree to that so there's ways around that too but I have now gone off on a whole different side no there so if you want to redirect me or if I didn't quite answer that let me know actually most people who spend a time around me know that's where that's I spend most of my life going off on tangents so you got you got lots of degrees of freedom in these in this conversation Abby and Shenandoah it's one thing to talk about this there's something else to it assign meaning and value to it in schools why do you think this is important for your contemporaries and your in the institution your schools as we heard officers talk about this this concern about you know don't speak to any adults right or don't speak to the administrators having been a high school principal and a discipline officer myself that'd be too tough to do your job if your students won't talk to you or talk to uniform police officers or anybody who's in authority talk about how this plays out or why it plays out and it's so important in your schools and to your contemporaries I really think that we're looking at schools uh that states is right like there's a level of education a lot you know high schoolers are young and likely haven't had a lot of experience with a sort of a justice system and when you're especially looking at a high school level age age group you're looking at a lot of kids who in our society general we have a very individualistic approach to what how we view the world I feel like we're all kind of raised to be like every man we think for himself I feel and so in high schools when you're looking when you're lacking that sort of educational component how do you bring that in how do you realize that you have what your actions do affect other people but sure maybe if you get into a disagreement with somebody or you know are causing some sort of alternative horror you know that you're harming somebody directly but you don't realize that that has ripple effects and especially when we're looking at bringing up our youth it's important to be able to identify that and to be able to educate on those purposes and when we're looking at restorative justice and these agents it's so preventative almost you know if we can get to the source of the problem now we can stop future problems and I feel like restorative justice is such a good way to tackle those sorts of problems um and to help provide a real resolution when it comes to um these development in in our schools Jen and Joey would would you like to add to that I'm sure yeah yeah um I definitely agree with Abby that it does help you see the ripple effects it's not just you against one person or one person against you it affects everybody in the community and in the school in small ways that you might not even think about um and I also think it's a really important way to kind of educate the rest of the community on like how these issues actually affect students for example in my freshman year in my health class we had somebody who was under a restorative justice contract who had to talk about what happened in their incident and then talk about how they kind of fixed that and how restorative justice helped them kind of right the wrongs that they had committed and then when I was the referred party one of my contract items was also to present to a few classes and kind of talk about the issue and students not only at Silver Creek but in the wider community so I think it's a really great way to kind of educate everybody involved and kind of like Abby said stop the incidents in the high school formative years where it's not as serious from going out into the wider community and becoming more serious issues uh one of the one of the I guess values we promoted in schools for a long long time is individualism right you do it on your own and you're going to compete and and it's less about the community and it's more about your achievements as an individual it will be interesting in the post pandemic world given what we have learned about how how critical our behaviors are in relationship to others right as simple as wearing a mask or not right that's why we're in virtual interview today is because of the pandemic so this whole concept of my obligation and my accountability to others in some ways in the post pandemic world maybe that's defined a little differently than was pre-pandemic uh when it was I'll get mine and you know and to heck with anybody else uh as a as a value we seem to have promoted in many places in many occasions through our school system and I was in it for a decade so so I can say that firsthand I'm not just a critic from standing outside the system uh both Kathleen and Officer Stallings there's a there's a cost to this and a benefit to this creating the Longmont Community Justice Partnership there's costs associated with this there there are costs associated I would assume for the police department to have officers in these roles in the time it takes but there are also benefits and I don't know if you can reduce those benefits to a dollar figure but but it would be helpful for you to hear from you too on what you see as costs and benefits not just in schools but in you know in the context of law enforcement generally Kathleen you want to begin sure sure I'll start that one out and I'll I just want to tag on briefly to the the last question that the the opportunity that we have in schools that I think all three of you refer to is to create a restorative culture so when the culture changes you know away from this individualistic every person for themselves towards we can all do better together that also supports taking responsibility right like if it's safe if I know what's going to happen when I take responsibility for making a mistake or making a choice that hurt others and I know that there I'm going to enter into this process that sees me as a human connected to a community and then I'm going to be given an opportunity to use my strengths to repair relationships with those that I've hurt well that starts encouraging a different level of responsibility to take place which then enhances respect in the building and especially when we're concerned right now with violence in schools it's more important than ever for students to feel a sense of belonging to that community oh I'm wanted here I have a chance to use my voice to talk about my experience and to be reintegrated into the school community even by the law enforcement officer you know the law enforcement officer is giving me this chance to say who I am and not be defined by this one act that could potentially send me to court eventually to incarceration or suspension expulsion one of these other options so I just wanted to make a note about the the potential of changing culture for the costs and benefits question so the primary benefit of restorative justice is that it is a public safety solution so lcjp with a budget right now we have a budget of around five hundred thousand dollars a year and two hundred thousand of that does come from a contract with the city of Longmont so with that budget we serve hundreds of community members every year we we usually work on approximately 100 to 120 cases that involve somewhere around 200 responsible parties and anywhere between 60 to 100 harmed parties um just to give you a comparison in Colorado it costs around a hundred thousand dollars to incarcerate one youth for one year so of course not all of the individuals coming through restorative justice would end up in incarceration it's not an apples to apples comparison but what we see is that if we invest in our youth and adults on the front end to keep them out of the system we're ultimately saving a lot of money and a lot of taxpayer dollars on the other side of things because investing a hundred thousand dollars to lock somebody up we know is not going to really lead to the safety outcomes that we're hoping for we also know that we have failed rates of recidivism once somebody is incarcerated for adults in Colorado we have an almost 50 percent recidivism rate that adults leaving incarceration will reoffend and be reincarcerated within three years so instead of doing this revolving door approach where we know people are going to come in and out draining community resources why not invest on the front end um and what we see just to give you some stats is a hundred percent satisfaction from victims and harm parties suggesting that are they report specifically to us that the responsible parties who go through restorative justice were held accountable for their actions and in the we recently completed a recidivism study that looked at 2,200 offenders who were referred to LCJP between 2006 and 2017 we saw a 3.5 percent recidivism rate so when we look at other recidivism rates that we hear about throughout this this community in the country that's a really low number so we know that this works there's a huge benefit to operating as a non-profit outside of the government outside of an institution being a a non-profit allows allows us to work alongside directly with the police so that they can make these what we call pre-file referrals meaning no charges are ever filed against somebody taking responsibility it also also add one more benefit which is that it really allows this to be a volunteer-driven approach so we incorporate students like Abby and Shenandoah and then we have at our broader work at the non-profit around a hundred active volunteers at any time making this making this intervention possible Stacy you want to add to this in terms of the both cost and benefits from the law enforcement perspective it sounds like Kathleen wrapped it up pretty well I think as far as the benefits from the from the police perspective is um we don't get I don't I don't think it's a secret that we don't get a lot of positive interaction with our community unless we are getting to do like a cops night out you know neighborhood barbecue things like that or we really try to get involved in these community events but but when we are called on a call because someone has called the police that is not always a negative or right positive interaction and and and even as as kind as some I believe many bomb-up police officers are and myself and as respectful as we try to be it doesn't always end up being just like you know it's not your best day and especially as the responsible party or the offender in that moment regardless of which direction they're taking so I think a huge benefit that I have noticed and sometimes I have even told Kathleen this before I'm like sometimes I think restorative justice is the only thing that keeps me in this job because it gives me the opportunity to see beyond that person's actions because in my job all I see is people's actions and people doing victimizing one another and it's it gets real hard you know to what is the saying to see the forest for the trees kind of thing because it gets it gets challenging to see people as people instead of their actions everywhere and when I get to sit in as an officer in a community group group conference model I get to see there's more to that person than what they did and I get to see them not just taking responsibility for it but wanting to repair the harm and fix it and you know many times I I ask that the case coordinators communicate you know occasionally with me on the contract items and they usually let us know when an offender has completed their contract successfully and and sometimes that includes some kind of letter to to us or something if they come up with that for their contract item which we will end up seeing that and reading that too and it it kind of repairs the damage to us as police officers that happens in this job that's how I feel and so I think that that's a huge benefit that so many law enforcement agencies are missing out on by not being not either having restorative justice in their communities at all and or not being involved in the restorative justice that's happening in their communities so I think that we missed for anybody at a job where you for the overwhelming majority of the time when you're interacting with somebody you're called to interact with you're interacting with them on their worst day that's going to have a that is going to have a serious impact over an extended period of time so having other opportunities obviously is some of the balance that you'd like to achieve in your professional life I'll just add one more kind of editorial comment for when I was in the field of education the kind of the cliche was we ought to put more money into education because it costs way more to send kids to the state pen and it does depend state right and and you just reinforce that Kathleen that that this is we by supporting whatever takes financially for this kind of an approach we end up saving we're able to redirect funds right to to other kinds of initiatives and just with with that on that theme and I don't maybe you want to comment maybe not either Kathleen or Stacy on this we're hearing a lot when I when I leave my home today and drive down the street I'll see signs about defunding the police department I'll see it in the 24-hour news circle and and I in my interview with Mike Butler and it's in a backstory with Mike we talked a little bit about be be clear what you're asking for in the defunding of police departments because if you defund police departments you'd be defunding this initiative potentially and the support that police officers need to be able to spend the time and engage in ways that officer selling is describing is that fair absolutely I think that Kathleen that's probably a better question for you since you're the you deal with that kind of department sure yeah I I would be very concerned if the Longmont police department were to be defunded and I think what the community the Longmont community specifically needs to know is the number of community-based initiatives that Longmont police officers are already committed to and have been developing we've been doing restorative justice with police for 25 years we've been doing the core program the crisis and outreach oh gosh I'm going to get it wrong crisis and outreach response and engagement there you go and lead the law enforcement assisted diversion program I think those some iteration of those have been in place for six years so when we hear about other communities demanding more types of intervention hey let's not ask police officers to be the experts in mental health crises in de-escalating incidents on the street in intervening when addiction and substance abuse is a problem which is I think those issues contribute to the majority of police calls and other communities around this country are saying let's get more professionals with expertise in those areas involved in responding to those community needs Longmont's already doing that we already have those programs in place in partnership with law enforcement which I'll say from my perspective has changed the culture of police in Longmont they have these tools the tools reinforce a different way of engaging with the community you can't engage with the community if you don't have those tools so I would be concerned very very concerned that we would be taking away options and tools from our officers we would be placing more stress and more burden on them if we were to defund police I do agree with what you said at the beginning about the comments from Chief Butler that this is a nuanced conversation it's very problematic to me when it's framed as this one or the other it's us versus them we need to have community members with diverse perspectives and voices along with officers sitting at the table when we talk about what we want to see in terms of public safety thanks Abby and Shenandoah as we as we draw down on the last few questions in in the this podcast what are the messages you'd like to send to your contemporaries to school administrators to city council members to city staff decision makers or budget you know folks who prepare budgets whatever that whatever the messages are what would you like people to hear from you two who have practical experience on on in all aspects of restorative justice in our schools no I really think that when we're looking at a long term future and long term the health of our society it would be great to just recognize that this creates empathy in our communities you're looking at creating a more empathetic future and culture if you introduce these sorts of procedures into your school systems and into your education systems what I mean wouldn't it be great if you could actually include students maybe in like circles with this administration let's get those voices the people that you're actually teaching in in contact with administrators and in contact with leaders and authority members like when we were talking about reaching the educational populace like you're not able to reach these people if you are stand behind that curtain and restorative justice really helps break these boundaries down and you're along with your peers you can also really show that students have power and students have a voice but in it's a learning opportunity it doesn't come off as punitive and I think that's really important for both sides instead of separating and rehab adults versus kids kind of is able to incorporate all aspects of the school and resources together and I think that that would be something that should be incorporated especially move forward moving forward if we're talking about reform this would be a great thing to include you know let's let's get more programs like this started let's like Kathleen saying it in general you know maybe not for every case but in general it costs less if we are reallocating the funds and looking at how we're actually repairing the community I think it could be really insightful a very insightful for our future going forward as for our future as a nation so yeah I definitely agree with Abby that it does create empathy in our society and I think that restorative justice is really helpful like officer selling said in getting past the actions of certain individual individuals so you often hear that you don't have all sides of the story well restorative justice allows you to get all sides of the story and it allows everybody there to kind of understand everybody's perspective and create ways to create justice that is satisfactory and amazing to everybody instead of just the regular justice system where justice is served in the form of the law but it's not necessarily served and it's not necessarily satisfying for all the parties involved so I think the main part of restorative justice that's important is that everybody's voice is heard and everybody gets a chance to kind of repair the harms that have been done and to repair the relationships in my own experience I got into a disagreement with a friend and before our restorative justice meeting we were not talking and the relationship between us was really rocky but now we've been able to repair that relationship and become friends again so I think that's a really important part of restorative justice as well well I know I made reference to messaging to administrators I know the administrators at your high school heard the message and they've been involved in this hopefully administrators across the country will have a chance to hear that message and if there's one word that jumps out over and over again what you just said that we've heard so much about recently it's empathy and the need for more coast to coast top to bottom in every sector of this country so I would invite Kathleen and Stacey if there's any messaging that you want to do as well in addition to what we've already heard any messages you'd like for decision makers policy makers people building budgets to hear yes sure I'll go first I'm chomping a little bit at this one you know that I think the loudest message that that is sitting heavy with me at in this time this climate and the you know discussion about the defunding and then removing SROs and things like that from school is you know every I think every organization every city every school district it's not all the same everywhere and you know at at my school and in same frame and working with LCJP and at the law mop police department you know restorative justice at Silver Creek would not exist without the SRO and it and not saying that at some point maybe someone some staff member or administrator might get some training or a counselor or something like that say hey we should try this and try building this but you know I think that there's a huge opportunity being being missed in in our country of utilizing resources as in terms of lot SROs specifically using restorative justice in schools so they can we can be there for safety we can be there for the bigger more more serious crimes where people are at risk their safety is at risk and and it could be imminent at times so we are there and we are present but we are constantly using this model of restorative justice in the school to deal with discipline issues or crimes that I mean they are you know by letter of the law their crimes and dealing with those so so that we can be present to build these relationships with our with our kids and teach them life skills that they get to carry with them forever and not contribute to the school of the prison pipeline and you know teach them how to have this this culture this this culture of ownership and inclusion with with their with all of their peers there you know so I get pretty passionate about that and I think that my message would be more for that you know here we are in this time where we're talking about defunding the police and so that the police have to set aside this this money to contribute to the community program so the police can't necessarily or the cities can't necessarily pay for restorative justice within every school district in their city or across the state and so I think school districts um could really benefit from uh helping to fund those those programs within their schools and I think that they would see a huge improve I think it would improve on attendance and behavior issues you know if we're not suspending kids then the attendance goes up which means they are having they are sitting in classrooms and you know potentially learning more and being more successful in school if they're actually present so there's just so many ways again that it would benefit if we could invest some in these types of practices in our schools and then just have better more positive relationships with staff and all the students of all of these different walks of life that are in the hallways that's one thing I always explain to to the kids is you know where they ask why they have so many roles in school why are there so many roles and I always ask them where where in your life are you going to be trapped in the same building that you're required to be in by law for seven hours a day with 1400 other people who could be completely and separate from you and your and your views and values and everything different religions different races different ages interests political views everything I mean complete all ends of the spectrum and then we you guys have to get along I have to make sure you get along all day or we all have to make sure you get along all day and every now and then a student will say um jail and I'm like yeah exactly you know I mean even your employers you tend to kind of gravitate towards you know certain fields because you have common interests and values and things like that so it's just a very unique place and I think that it's such a a great fit for restorative justice to be integrated into that system early on Kathleen yeah in terms of messaging well Stacy covered a lot of ground there which I really really appreciate and I would say you know we one of the reasons that restorative justice has been able to serve thousands and thousands of community members in Longmont is thanks to the investment of not only Longmont Public Safety but also the St. Brain Valley School District which has prioritized training for educators and administrators in restorative approaches and what that's allowed LCJP to do is grow to this point where right now we are really ready to provide even more services and focus on our relationships with school resource officers um we right now could could do more and we have secured funding from foundations and donors to support the expansion of our programming but we will be limited in that expansion if we lose funding from the city so I would say if if policymakers and decision makers are interested in seeing more restorative justice that has been described in this interview I would ask them to please find ways to prioritize funding of this community-based initiative Kathleen just build on that part of this as we wrap up with if if anybody who listens to this would like to learn more about how to get involved or is motivated to get involved how do they get involved yeah thanks so much for asking that Tim so the best way to get involved is of course to visit our website which is lcjp.org and we have a monthly orientation which we're currently hosting over zoom the next one is july 13th from six to eight we do have one in we have one this month in june but it's already full to capacity so you're welcome to go to our website to look at trainings and events and you can sign up directly for our orientation there and that's the first step towards learning more about everything that we do and how to get involved we also have a documentary that was made in just 2019 about our restorative justice police partnership you will see all three of these individuals on the screen with me featured in the documentary and the filmmakers in light of what's been going on throughout the country recently with violence the filmmakers have just released the documentary publicly so we'll be linking that on our website this week to make it more broadly available outstanding I want to say thanks to all four of you Shenandoah Abbey, Officer Stallings, Kathleen thank you so much for giving us this time and for telling sharing the backstory on restorative justice in schools with Longmonters we will we're going to continue this conversation there'll be another backstory talk about how the supplies and what the implications are for the community but I want to thank all four of you this morning you could have done a lot of different things with your time the fact that you chose to spend it with me in this podcast is a service in and contribution to the community thanks and be safe take care of yourselves thanks Tim thank you thanks for having us thank you