 All right. Well, thank you so much for being here and thank you also. Thank you for seeing for making that acknowledgement. I was going to do that as well, but I'll still make the acknowledgement say I'm great. I'm grateful to be here on the alonies ancestral territory and back here at Berkeley. Why am I here here not here in this room today but here back in Berkeley silent now in Italy with my wife is also an archaeologist. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, but this is a little bit of a coming home so I was really grateful that they're a slot open that allowed me to be here I'm not going to talk about codify. Too much in terms of it from a perspective as except to say that after this entire life's time of trying to get this going. It's happening so we have a company, and we're launching a product this month. It's going to begin right here. So we'll talk a little bit about that I think it's a big deal it is the first platform I think we can say that it's been designed expressly for and by archaeologists to support our work. I will be acknowledging all the failures that we've gone through to get here. So I'm going to be very clear about that too, but Okay, so I just thought we're so next year, 2024. So I'm going to do it again. We'll be the 25th anniversary of our cohorts. I'd like to do a shout out to Dave Palmer who's having a birthday today. He's 95 south feels. And so I got asked to be part of a symposium is kind of looking forward to what professional archaeology might be doing into the near future. And I'm just using this as an opportunity to go around and talk with people. And then we can do it as a podcast we'll see but just to collect stories about what has it has not worked. So I'm just going to tell a couple of stories here. And then hopefully have time for it will be time, make sure we have time, despite the technical challenges to just kind of openly talk about what is in isn't working. So today, because it's interesting that the second stop on the tour last week, last night with Ruth, actually, premium is AI and generative AI and machine learning and data sovereignty and all these things that I actually really wanted to talk about I want us to talk about that but I'm just not because the whole point is to hear from you all. So that in mind. This is a slide I put together over a decade ago, but it still resonates this is a concept of the long now. Okay. So to keep us a kind of what's kept me calm, although I saw plenty of great hair about this digital preservation stuff is the idea that this digital revolution has been just a blink of an eye. A long now foundation which is in San Francisco, thinks about recalibrating time to a 10,000 year forward and back time frame, which again kind of helps when so many things are happening in this world that are so tragic right now. You can see the hits keep coming keep coming, but they call that nowadays to be kind of the last decade to the next decade the last 30 years if you think about it we're doing another reflection of that. In my timeframe of thinking about digital archeology over the last 30 years and where we might go into the future. This is Abby Smith, rumsy and she gave a talk just last night on how the rewriting the history can have very strong deleterious effects, especially for totalitarian and authoritarian kinds of individuals and organizations, I think you should be able to guess she's actually a Russian scholar. She has a new book out which I highly recommend. She's a hero of mine for a lot of reasons. Her advice yesterday in speaking was the alternative facts are coming not just from the right but they're also coming from the left and if you don't agree to that concept go find someone that says about as opposite as you are in terms of your political spiritual beliefs and just have started having an open conversation about it. I thought that was kind of good. She wrote this book, and this book had a very strong impact on my thinking about how digital memory is shaping our future. She points out that you know the latest rape was you know the inner once back in the day there was the internet, social media and now AI, these things seem to keep coming but we haven't even caught up they are thinking about the advent of the internet. This quote the fundamental purpose of recording our memories to ensure they live beyond us will be lost in the ephemeral digital landscape if we do not become our own data managers. And this is a person who was a advisor to the Library of Congress on their blue ribbon panel specifically for digital preservation. She was more optimistic. When I spoke with her in 2017 now she's become pretty I say, I say rightfully cynical about about this. The skills to control our personal information over the course of our lives are essential. And this is kind of the fundamental right and believe that I believe that that many of us would hold. Yeah, that's kind of mine. That picture was taken right there and what used to be an office out here in the atrium before all that. When, when Christine says I spent, I used to live here I'm so I literally lived here there was a time as an undergraduate I actually slept in that office and hope that I should say that loud but I did. This is the Berkeley and I ironically state this is when I had less hair. But, you know, we were using word perfect and using CD ROMs and physical film slides and also trying to render things using a super computer in Worcester hall for one 640 by 480 image took three days. So you had to be you had to choose wisely. And we call that project project camera because it was all the idea of this unattainable dream. And then I in 1995, my first excavation project, trying not to be eaten alive by mosquitoes while we are actually trying to figure out how to digitally reconstruct her former project up above. I spent most of my time here. I spent some good quality time here. I've shot all the way I can as Christine mentioned I focused mostly on this idea of vision and how archaeologists see I called it the hypothesis which basically meant that if you can see more stuff you'd find more stuff. And then I made a science scientific experiment to prove that that yes in fact was true. We did some digital and digitally innovative things back in the day. We used climbing gear to get up and do, you know, you know, aerial imagery and daily plans as you can see. We use palm pilots, which I dare say still one of the best technologies ever. Everyone's all into this physical keyboard stuff and saying it is all the rage. And we made a physical book. The last house on the Hill, Bok reports but along with that. The first strategy I'll point out was we also committed to having all of the digital materials of this project. It's available. The living archive of talks on that site is for is no longer that site doesn't no longer exist. And all this material still does not have a home. Because things change, and that's the kind of the punchline I think of this whole talk. So, I wanted a job, I couldn't find one so we started the Center for digital archaeology in 2010 that's pretty much actually true. And the ones that came in and the main thing that we worked on at Kota was this was Mukadu, which is the Washington State driven. Now international open source platform for indigenous cultural heritage and knowledge and very proud of the work that we did on that it's in that project is still thriving, and it's really exciting. But along the way, I kept getting challenged to build something specific for archaeology. I didn't know a whole lot about professional archaeologists and CRM as in California DPR 523 forms. I certainly have learned a whole lot since then. We did a lot of really interesting projects and here's where my stories are going to begin. I'm probably going to maybe tell one and a half instead, which is fine. Again, this is the part where I'm going to acknowledge that we've, I'm going to call it failed forward. So if I talk about it in any other way, I'm probably going to start crying, which is not a good look. But, you know, I acknowledge Tim Gill and Meg and others, Bonnie Clark, etc. for projects that we have tried this experiment of digital archaeology and actually failed. And the failure to me means that we've actually lost data. And that is an inexcusable thing. We've also done, we've had a lot of success in that, but it's just emboldened me to making sure that that will always be true. But it is challenging. It's a very, very challenging thing. I'm at the 82nd University and I'm meeting Vancouver. I met this guy. I actually get to work with him now. He, that's a whole another fun story. This is Jurgen van Wessel, very interesting guy. And I kept hearing about the thing called the HS2 was the HS2 HS1 was the channel between France and England, the HS2 is now has is being built in large, large sections of have been built. But would be the largest single civil engineering undertaking in the UK to build a high speed rail to connect. As I would say, farm to table between London and Birmingham. It just so happens that between those two cities is a tremendous amount of archaeology. And some of that archaeology lives under St. James Gardens, which is a modern cemetery and the same up at Park Street in Birmingham. So the Museum of London and headland archaeology to the larger CR cultural firms, archaeological firms in the UK, build a too big to fail consortium. And they asked to try an experiment which was to try to see what would happen between paper recording, a combination of paper and digital recording and pure digital, and they asked us to build the application to do it. So there's a big risk, but we tried it. It had to be as good as the Museum of London's paper system which is by the way the system that we use at trial here, it's like the red book archaeology. It had to work without any form of connectivity. It had to be able to record terabytes of data this is 2017 just to be clear. It had to be trainable by there were not enough people to do this work they needed to train up 200 people to do the work. And they needed to produce archival quality products that would adhere to the archaeology data services standard. So, no ideal. I wasn't able to even talk about the project until it made the front page of the Guardian. But this is what we built we built an application working driven what calls users centered design working specifically with the users, daily, and it had a pretty significant outcome. This working audio or us. Yeah, you can. The punchline is this was a modern a modern cemetery they had over 80,000 people. They had to build an 11 million pound as in dollars money roof because the UK has a policy for not seeing human remains unless you wish to actually became a very interesting public archaeology project because you know many of the folks, their ancestors were actually buried at the cemetery and so it actually became a very good success from a, from a public archaeology perspective, literally closely, we'll see one tablet over there. We built a sketching system into the platform. These are early days, a qa qc system that made it easy to record the data across across and checked all that. And the outcome is something like this. This is the reality of doing digital archaeology in a flooded this is in the 2018 when the flood waters were high. And this person who looks really happy had to take all of the data off these iPads every single day and back them up 180 iPads a day was insane. And it was it was really exciting in comparison to the volume of fields, which are thousands of fields of data being collected. The paper and in hand types solution that they had before would have entered seven. So all that data would have been trapped on paper and would not be something that could have been used for analysis. So that's pretty cool. And during COVID. We all here will remember that in 2020 11,000 dry lightning strikes started hundreds of fires in northern California. And as far as we become known as the CZ complex and we burn 86,000 acres destroyed 1500 buildings. And also most of the structures and trees and big basin redwood state park. This does have audio if it doesn't let me just try. I don't want to attempt the. It's okay, I'll speak over it so what happened basically is that you know you have a state park yet people in the park park rangers were several hundred people. And this happened so quickly that they had to, it just became a crisis and emergency. But they successfully got every single person out. So no one died in the park people did die in this fire, unfortunately, and all the buildings over 180 structures were completely destroyed. And that included a wait for the punchline here. Everyone getting out of dodge there included the residents houses that were actually destroyed by this fire. So a former client and friends of Santa Cruz state parks reached out to us to see if we could help build some form of rapid recording system. The challenges that they gave us a week. They needed to record new GIS locations but they also wanted to be able to bring to that while working in the field to historic photos, so they could do these quick assessments the entire purpose of this was to do a FEMA assessment. So they didn't need what's known as some of you probably have heard of the California DPR system forms. I wouldn't be surprised if you hadn't because again I didn't learn about that whole lot of this room because we do a different kind of archaeology. But if in effect they wanted all of the previously reported data. You put on tablets that they could take it out and we do this quick assessment by virtue of doing that in the state then the state and federal FEMA would declare it an emergency and provide insurance relief. So, we build a tool to be bring all the data in effectively, and we just went in and use humans us to go in and look at the previous recorded UTM coordinates and convert that into actual digital data stack that in field maps which is an Esri product. You have to keep in mind at this point, there was no there were no services in the bar, because they were all burnt again. Okay, it was on it was still on fire when we went there, it was pretty intense. So it's capable of that. This is us doing the actual training, similar to what I just mentioned in the project in in the UK. We had a team of about 10 people with four iPads and we, we trained for about 40 minutes. And then we just set people loose. And then Kennedy, what's really neat about this is Kathleen works for the state and she actually did all of the original DPR recording so she she was there she wrote the original narratives for this particular place which was great. She was very to say that she was not pessimistic but like was it wasn't in his whole digital thing. And of about two hours inch after she realized that dictation work and she could take all the pictures that she wanted. And we can meet her standard she was all in on it. So that was really exciting. It's also very heartbreaking as you can imagine, we all just kept our, our stiff upper lip. Again, this is audio this is Michael just didn't see who also works for the state. We taped the south, the southeast corner, did a new submitter data and you can see the the outboard receiver. I'm not here to talk about things that are very fancy I'm just trying to talk about things that are actually impactful on work. So the impact of this is we were able to record all of this all of the places of interest within big basin, as well as a historic cascade ranch which was also severely damaged and causes state peace park in four days, including finding and recording new archaeological sites, which is kind of cool. Basically allowed them just to record a description, add photos, right as as robust a narrative as they would like to, and then generate something that looks like this, a basic a basic report. So, for me as a California born raise, this project had a, it's been mad to have a tremendous amount of emotional impact. And it also was really exciting that it actually worked. I had the pleasure of meeting tomorrow with Michael to send to me who haven't seen since this project because, you know, according to him this is the impact of our work has made a significant difference and there still doesn't seem to be something as kind of simple as this is kind of always been the goal. Like I said, I mostly want to talk to you guys so I'm going to skip to the end and just say two things. The first as I mentioned is codify so codify. We started. I should move back to here. We did a lot of projects around the world. And we've had some great successes but as I mentioned we have had some failures, and I think that that's an incredibly important thing to acknowledge. The greatest failures I'm not a software engineer. I play an archaeologist and television a lot of ways I feel, but, but to Christine's point I have a lot of passion around it, and we had, we had a great amount of skills but we were never big enough to really pull this off. That is what led to the acquisition of codifying 2019. So we just, we raise money, and we ran out, which is how these things work. And, and then in 2020 at the end of 21, Heather was was got an acquisition offer effectively by a private equity firm. And that then in their discovery they realized that there's a software company inside of it. And so that is what has ultimately led to us having a company that has with for over 50 employees now. And who are professional software engineers who are helping make this all happen. We're going to be participating with Sarah on the fair care project, you can talk a little bit about that too. And these these initiatives that are going to, I think, help us finally get to what I'm considering to be the failed promise of digital archaeology something that actually might actually work going forward. Because we don't have audio, this is a just a quick screen of what the actual application looks like. And anybody wants to talk about afterwards happy to do so. Last night, I thought it would only be right to start this whole tour with Ruth. So that's Ruth trim. That's her drawing and she wrote she wrote to me a while back and said, she's going to go talk about this in November first I'll try not to spoil it for her. But this is what she told me I can say. Basically what happened is, she got contacted by some folks that are doing really advanced remote sensing work in the former Yugoslavia, where up above this project was this was the very first thing I did is my honest thesis as an undergrad was working on this project back And so she drew the same and frankly she officially asked me if I would help say some of the data and yesterday last night over T we just sat down and started looking at the data, and we're able to put together Factually all that really quickly in a couple of hours. It doesn't have a home I'm thinking open context would probably be the right place for that. But what it means is as she said, which is pretty pretty amazing is that that project which is 40 years ago. I'm still in. What is going to be the ground for this new work going forward. And that to me is the punchline it's like we, the digital work that we've been doing over the last decades and going forward. If we don't figure out how to make sure that it will be preserved, then that digital dark age concept for this kind of work is going to happen. That's kind of the sad, the sad making I have for us. And because of audio I'm not going to play this I will add it later. And say Oh there. And say thank you so what I'd like love to do is just hopefully open up. I'd love to hear from you guys about what is and isn't working in your world's a digital archaeology or wherever we want to take this conversation. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for the talk. And it's a super interesting topic as always. I guess I have just a general background question which is, those of us who have a lot of data out there somewhere, there's always this perennial problem of technology changing like I showed this and some of the stuff in the old days. What is the sort of where do you put stuff. Now is it good enough to put it on the cloud and assume that the cloud companies will update over time or what is a safe storage place for all this data. You must see all your projects generate all projects generate a whole pile of data so just curious about your thoughts on that. So, a lot of you haven't had the pleasure of meeting my wife, but when we moved to Italy, and you have to ship cargo. She was really excited that I decided to ship our Peloton and all my hard drives, which weighed about as much. So I mean I've been the digital hoarder of drives for for all this time and yes they take, they just, you have to keep moving them forward. The cloud as its own challenges. I mean, and, and, and one of the things we're going to be dealing with codify is building a solid data sovereignty sovereignty barrier between our ability to see data and make sure that we're following all the different international standards iso standards GDPR etc. It's extremely complicated. So I've sadly don't have an answer. I mean the answer is, you know, it's just, you just got to keep moving the data forward. I'm not opposed to the cloud we use it all the time but but it is the notion of keeping data and more than one person keeping it safe. Chris Hoffman we had a server in the data center that we had to, we had to murder it. Ultimately we had to put it down. So it's just an incredible challenge. But I'm still alive so thank you Sarah. Well so that I wanted to ask about that as well. I mean, I love having lots of copies of things that keep stuff safe you know about locks after them. But I think for individual researchers, like you're saying with my stuff right when you're working on it and keeping track of your own content but then what you do later and as you're talking about failures and that kind of thing I was thinking about how we still need so much to have better relationships with libraries and archives, and we're doing so much of our work independently and trying to figure this out. But if they have their training, and they have degrees in this and they do this kind of thing and so like the scholarship has, you know, the, that's the place where you can put your stuff and you can archive it and then they make sure that it gets very forward and so I think there's a lot of discussion that we still need to have around what we do as individuals and as projects do to save, keep our stuff into the future without having to feel like we have to be responsible for it in our closets, you know, like on Zipdream. Yeah, it's totally true. There are a couple of challenges to that one of them is it comes down to what I've made as a personal distinction between personally identifiable data things that are about you know, you think about food security and for personal knowledge and memories versus stuff that could be and should be in an archive. So the stuff that matters the most active. Abby Smith Rumsey is at the most greatest risk frankly I'm much more concerned about our data. You know the pictures I was just trying to find the hard drive that has all the pictures of my kid when they were born 12 years ago. Like the file that has all the photos is locked in little Apple photos thing, and I can't open it so we'll see how that goes. Hopefully I won't get divorced over it. The other challenge, which is the other real purpose of this whole like walkabout I'm doing between now and essay is next year is professional archaeology where most of the archaeology is actually done right. And the standards for for archiving that data are all of them. And it's just an incredible challenge. So that frankly is a reason I didn't start codified but as a reason why I haven't given up on it because it is just it's a hot mess. Right. So, well, along those lines my husband's sleeping you and I have any number of times where the beauties and challenges of archaeology is that so rich and diverse and complex. So as you think about like this new platform you're developing, how do you handle kind of unique needs that come up for a project like the big basic project. That's kind of archaeology but kind of an extension of our how do you make something work for every kind of project. That's a great setup. They're first, not taking right off the first prize, which is that there have been. Sarah's asking me if I'm okay with this we've been reported and I totally am really honest answer is that staying focus on the one target of we're going to build something that will work. 80% good, but 20% not like, you don't get to tell Microsoft that you don't like the ribbon or clippy or whatever. That's the first part of it but the other thing was to build a platform that makes it possible for you to be able to adapt it to your work. And that's the really exciting thing this new platform is going to make possible is what we're calling the configurator which makes it so you can effectively convert your workflow in your practices. The tool isn't driving you you're driving school that's always been cool. It's an experiment we'll see if it works but that's just one thing that's just codified but So, for example we're not going to start with excavation we're going to start with survey because survey is 80% of the work that is done in professional archaeology right now. I'm going to California because believe it or not it is data standards that have not changed since 1995. So it's that it's it's ripe for for for change. And, and then doing these column data therapy sessions going on talk to people about, you know, what their, what their needs are on their project so that we can have folks influence the roadmap going forward. I'm going to the company. I have no one reporting to me anymore, because we have a COO she's absolutely amazing who doesn't allow our ideas to get to the product team so that they'll just get the first thing done. And that this is that that discipline is really important important and mom can really put a month earlier. They have they do a 20 meters 10 foot survey. Metal detector service, and that 10 foot survey. Somehow it just killed us it was just really should have been a different it's just smaller space and you know but they were the workflow that they do on paper. It works. But when you try to translate that to digital tablet, it just didn't it took me we did it. We basically volunteer as I was like, that's the kind of thing that if you're building a software that has to work. I always think about like, I have a Tesla, which I don't, but if I did and you want that you want that software just has to work you know I'm saying like, you don't get to. Yeah, but it also played up a music that'd be really great. Yeah. So, you know, this is great and something for everybody. So I want you to tell us after you did the mola of the railroad tracks which are weird. What you, what you learned from that and how you adjusted I mean I'm assuming you didn't push the button once and go with static and off they went there must have been some learning curve I mean what were the most critical things you found that you had to what you had to do to make it a success there must have been a couple sort of moments you know one hurdle that was particularly important because you've been doing this a long time and yet you still came. I'm assuming, maybe I'm wrong, came up with issues or hurdles. What were the most critical things that you had to solve to make that successfully work through to its lifetime. I actually have one. And it's now baked into I think our entire philosophy which was this idea, it's like a rhizomic way of recording data. So, small teams are working and you're generating. If you're doing this right for generating a huge amount of data, archival quality photographs photographs that should be weighing in at 20 to 15 megabytes each in real time. Now in an excavation is a bit more control so there are the other things that you can, you could do you could build a local area network but to keep it nice and Zen here that ability of I, I have. This is what I did, I took these three pictures, I had I talked to the osteologists, I made those notes. That's actually relatively speaking to all the data 180 people not a whole lot of data. So we call that gem just enough metadata just and just my data and get that data to move to the next person and move to the next person move to the next person up the chain and checked along the way as it moves from device to device. That was I think the greatest innovation that we did. The challenge though was, how do you back up 180 iPads a day. And that was just a total nightmare. I mean, we were, you know, that was just an incredibly hard challenge it was terabytes of data. And the, frankly, the devices in the infrastructure aren't ready to accommodate it that would the cloud challenge we have is, you know, it isn't so much when you're online or offline is that midline. I mean, in and out of a slot Canyon I can imagine, you know, you could do that kind of work and it's like, well, all right, do I have contacts if you're not so these are huge challenges frankly. And it all comes down to I get real old school. I mean, step one is paper. Step two is, I recorded my data, and I have three copies of the data so we don't have an incident but they had it probably and lose data. So that's a really these are these are incredibly hard challenges I think. And I don't think I don't think there's great answers yet, unfortunately. I mean, that's a question. If you think the chat button. I just see a really big head ahead behind me. I don't know. I mean, the opinion on on what should and should not be saved was the sidebar conversation I have last night with Abby Smith from zoom and again she caused my nerves on us like, we don't have to save everything. And the group that came from the person just his name is David didn't get his last name. He says something really profound and got actually got a round of applause from at the talk last night at the at the long non foundation and that was, we are generating more data than we ever have effectively, but we're not archiving is archiving is a process to what Sarah said is a curated process. So how much of the stuff that we're generating right now this hitting social media do we even need to keep a one of you, like, like, none of it, right, so much. So there's just a sampling strategy to do that. But I would say that the greatest challenges are figuring out how to make data that should not be preserved and should be should have a right to die able to be able for that to be true. I think we've baked into the model of the, of the data curation center in the UK it's a model I personally, you know, accept if you don't want your data archive you should have the have the right for it to, you know, an advanced direct effectively, and exactly when we're working with ethnography with field work with people. It's an opportunity to bear witness to storytelling, especially work with tribes that we recorded for the tribe but it's not going anywhere. It cannot go into an archive publicly because that's not what they want so that. Yeah. Those are the challenges I think thoughts on that. Okay Sarah again. But we're about a time. Yeah, sorry. So fascinating. Oh, thank you so much to see the history. I remember all the moments back when I first came here. So my question is, kind of ready for the question from this. Can we use for many different purposes, but it's your goal, or but it's the actual team, and how is it to us to be being charged. And everything about that for the first couple days in particular because we're going to be charged to do some of the Japanese, both of them. And what we found was that if it's written, clearly, it's a great tool. I would say Japanese language into English, and if it's written in a Japanese style, then it's the translation is no good. So it forces us to think in English way, even if people are using the Japanese language. It's kind of like translation, like Star Wars, Star Trek, so people are communicating with each other. It looks like it's all convenient, but how we are learning is actually no. It's actually, yeah, be your rules there, possibly if you go through that direction. This technology, archiving everything, even though we can archive a lot, it's still forces us to do the archiving game. So with that in mind, it's the ultimate goal to record more, which I don't think is the case, and that's not the case, but it's your goal. Well, I think I mean, on the personal level, and I'm telling you, the reason I don't open the box about AI is because it's a big box. But when there is, I mean, on the counterpoint of that, the problem right now with that just to touch on that for a second is what are the what are the languages being used to train them on, but how big are the data sets? We know that, that's the, I can all figure that out. My wife, since it has a team of over 40 archaeologists right now working in Saudi Arabia and they're Italian. And they're able to use chat GBT in a very specific way, channelized documents that are not being fed to the, to the, to the model that our PDFs are being controlled, and they're getting really good results that way. But they still have to proofread everything as you said, so that's one. So personally, we kind of put it into our tagline for codify and it's about collecting the right data. For blasting, you know, the, with this project we just did in Saudi. It turned out that there were rock art inscriptions that were pre Islamic Talmudic and all this. So the photographs that were being taken were the right photographs for the purpose of the project but they are the wrong photographs for actually doing the assessment analysis. And it's at a place where progress is going to erase that archaeology because they're building the line because you guys have heard about neon. So in that case, I would suggest that I would like to see a way for technology to support people doing the very best work in the most challenging conditions. That's kind of the tattoo I have on my arm at it. And I still haven't lost that so I'm still here doing it. The line is terrifying. So we can cut it. So, this reminds me a little bit of the transition that photographers went to there was a certain point where professional photographers began to adopt digital, but they held out. So we used the shot commercial. But today, digital cameras really help mid ways. And so in that respect, digital technology could be with all the added struggles we have using this stack in the field. So we could potentially assist in not, you know, limiting our documentation to rather guiding it. A friend who works in robotic, he's a better for robotic surgeons. And they don't actually do the surgery, but they'll say like 90% of surgeons use this scalpel for this process. So it's sort of, it's adding that in potentially with the vision or camera. So these technologies will be healthier archaeologists that you want interfering. 100% agree. And so that that's where I started from, right. And it's like, I, when I look back and realize that just on a personal front I've been doing this. I didn't be intended to become an archaeologist I was my dad was a photographer, he would have had his 100th birthday on the 29th of September. I started with that. That's where I started with. And then in 2000, we had a brownout and a child. And it killed my computer, and the backup and the second back. And we had to use the drive savings to recover that data. So that began my journey, but this is we have to be patient. There's a patience to it is the next this is the gold rush now they I but I don't know. I love to hear from Bill on this too but just having something that is reliable that will work. The last record data that we can train into the next generation of students, people in the back. That's all. And that still seems ephemeral sales still seems like the camera we just haven't caught yet. So a lot of nods. Thank you very much.