 All right, today I'm really excited to have this conversation. We're gonna be talking about divine partnerships and I've got two dear friends in the house, Joy Kingsborough and Matt Kahn sharing their experience and we're gonna go down a lot of different rabbit holes so you have to stay till the end because there's something special I wanna share with you at the end. So welcome Joy and Matt. Thanks for having us. It's an honor to be here. It's great to be here. So, okay, what the heck is a divine partnership? I'm gonna lay it on you guys. Okay, well, a divine partnership from our perspective is a connection in which you obviously have a level of attraction to the other person but you have a connection that occurs not only on the level of mind but on the level of heart and on the level of soul. And so when Joy and I met and we were both in a position in our life where neither one of us were looking for a partnership. In my life I was pretty exhausted from that experience. And when we met it was this unexpected connection when we literally came together. It was like these levels of connection instead of experiencing them in a certain order I experienced a connection with Joy that clicked on every level simultaneously. And when you have experiences in your life of I'm attracted on this level and let's give it time to see if it develops when Joy and I met from my perspective it was an instant connection on every level. And it was literally from the moment that we met and had this connection and the clicking into place of everything simultaneously that I actually was educated in exactly what a divine partnership is. Okay, I'm gonna ask Joy this question. So let's differentiate between like when we think of the word attraction we think of physical attraction we think of emotional attraction and you also just mentioned spiritual attraction. So you said that the two of you were like you were running on all three of those cylinders, right? So what's the difference? Because that can be confusing to a lot of people. Yeah, I think that in every relationship where it's been confusing it hasn't been divine partnership and that's why it was confusing because the instant that we met I was standing at this event with Matt we were there for work and we came together and there was this connection where it fired in my mind it was in my heart, it was in my body it was there was literally the room fell away. And so for me, knowing the difference was how I felt in congruence in myself I felt like I was in coherence, my mind, my heart everything clicked into place with I need to spend all of my time with this person this person is so important. So for me, it was a deep knowing instantly. And if I could ask Yeah, no, yeah, go ahead. And as a compliment to join our connection when we met, I instantly felt the highest qualities of myself step forward which is different sometimes when you meet someone you're physically attracted to and it can also stir some insecurity it can stir up some fear it can stir up some different qualities of ourself. And so in a lot of ways there's a great benchmark of when you're in a divine partnership is the person you're with bringing out of you the highest qualities or are you able to bring your highest qualities out in the presence of a divine partnership? And so when Joanne I met and I felt literally the highest qualities of all aspects of myself move forward the moment we met it was a confirmation of how I knew that this connection was something deeper and bigger than any attraction but was actually a part of a divine partnership that was created truly by divine appointment. Yeah, so easy. It was so easy. Well, you say it's easy but a lot of people feel this is elusive and I wanna just piggyback on something you just said Matt because I really resonate with this. You know, I have at least I know in my own experiences and certainly listening to my clients. You know, I could meet someone it doesn't necessarily bring out my highest quality it can bring out my lower chakra if you will. My physical libido can come out, you know and honestly in that moment I think it's a divine partnership in that moment but I'm not really being ruled by my highest quality. So, okay, so a lot of people listening to this might think well, this sounds like twin flame stuff and we both watched the episode or the three of us, excuse me watched that episode on twin flames on Netflix or Amazon, I don't remember, call or the what's the difference between say a divine partnership a soul made kind of relationship or a twin flame if you're able to go down this rabbit hole I'd love to hear your thoughts. Of course. You wanna take that on me? Oh my gosh, I think we're up to take it together. Let's do it. So, you know, I think we start with the twin flame energy we're talking about a relationship that at least in my experience is very connected to growth that needs to occur individually and you come together with someone to hopefully stir that growth but you're connected to someone primarily I think from a deep attraction perspective. I think the attraction is intense and maybe you feel this spiritual connection but I find that it's rarely both people feeling it equally. There's usually one person that feels it a little bit more intently than the other person and they're sort of this chasing and this intensity to it but the intensity feels uncomfortable, unstable. I don't know what you would add to that from a twin flame perspective, but. Yeah, I think that over the years when I've come to know this term and worked with so many people that were talking about twin flame partnerships the definition that they would say was that I'm looking for the other half of my soul as if a twin flame means that two or one soul exists in two different bodies which could have a level of romance to that idea but it also takes on a very codependent type energy because typically when people get into the twin flame scenario there is one person who has convinced the other person must be their twin flame the other person may not have that experience or is being blamed for being avoidant and so then the person who thinks that they're chasing their twin flame is in a sense they think they're pursuing and trying to convince someone that could sometimes that we see the documentary borderline and stalking and which as we know would not be a tenant of divine partnership. So what and I've done a video on twin flames many years ago and so in the twin flame idea twin flame means one soul in two different bodies which I see as a misunderstanding and I can explain why they also think soulmate is who you meet to prepare you for the twin flame what I actually see is the reverse that a twin flame, flame being heat twin being two people that come together to mirror back karmic patterns to prepare each other for a relationship that is more than likely gonna happen with a future partner that's not the person they're working their stuff out with so when you're in a twin flame energy it can sometimes start very physically hot very romantic, very tumultuous and what happens is is that the egoic attraction that might make it physically romantic or very exciting equally makes it that tumultuous on a inter pattern level I don't think that's even a word and inter pattern level but really so there's people that have these connections that are super hot in the beginning and then they trigger each other in their patterns because they're actually helping to prepare each other for what they think is their partnership but it's actually preparing for a different partnership later on the line what I believe that Joy and I have is a soulmate connection which is not two, one soul in two different bodies which I don't even think exists I think it's a misunderstanding when we met our energy fields I have an energy field, she has an energy field and we literally in a split second felt the creation of a mutual energy field kind of like a Venn diagram where we were two whole beings and then a new midpoint was created and it was an entire different energy that my divine masculine, her divine feminine created together and when that click happened I instantly realized that's what the twin flame people misunderstand they think that, oh, you two have one soul in two different bodies and of course, what it really is is just misunderstanding a reflection of unity consciousness and often projecting romance onto that and so I think there's a lot of misunderstandings that we are in our living experience excited to clarify for so many people So, okay, you know, it's interesting because I genuinely believe that we have soulmates I believe in past lives some of my audience doesn't and I do believe in every relationship it's a significant relationship I've had we have had a connection that goes beyond the surface kind of transactional Now, to some people listening to this this is just gonna sound like a lot of woo-woo you know, like this idea of divine partnership it's woo-woo, you know, like it doesn't exist it's all airy-fairy yet the same time I've observed most humans in today's realm operate in what I call transactional relationships and I think the real core of this conversation is differentiating between a transactional relationship and a divine partnership Would you two be open to kind of giving your perspectives on the differences between those? Absolutely, you want to just... Yeah, I think, you know, I would call it the same thing when we talk about transactional relationship there's sort of this compromise or agreement so you're, you know, if you take care of this and our relationship and you take care of that there's sort of this bargaining that happens and I think that for me one of the things that I knew going into relationship if I was gonna be in a relationship again I didn't know before I met Matt and I knew that I wasn't going to compromise and what I meant by that is not that I wasn't gonna be agreeable or connect with someone or cooperate I wasn't going to have to but I knew that I could be all of me and bring all of me to that experience and that me being all of me would light my partner up and the same would happen for my partner that by bringing all of him to the relationship there's nothing he would need to compromise about who he is, what he loves, what his passions are and that's exactly what we found is when we're in this divine partnership that all of who he is is not only welcome, it's celebrated and all of who I am isn't just welcome, it's celebrated so there's no transaction I don't need him to do anything for me in order to feel like my needs are met I can meet my own needs I just love to expand and grow with my partner so it becomes a bend in added space And even to add on to that I love what you just said honey to add on to that I think transactional relationships are when we are physically attracted without an equal desire to grow with a person because when we grow with someone that means we're not always gonna have our needs met in every single moment if we have those types of expectations so what I like to say when we think of divine partnership is that attraction is not a less than quality it's a part of the equation for sure but in addition to who you desire on a physical level also who do you desire growing with and so when there is an equal attraction and an equal desire to grow with someone and who they are as a natural person doesn't like for example I'm not attracted to joy because only when she says and does certain things I'm not attracted to joy because she only does certain things at a regular basis and vice versa I'm attracted to joy every single day in every moment because we are equally attracted to each other on every level and we also share an equal desire to grow with each other to face difficulty and because we're so connected what people will discover instead of assuming this is like an airy fairy thing which you said which I love I think what this really is is the possibility of having a connection that is equally attractive and sustainable and that it's possible to find someone that you are attracted to and who you equally desire growing with and that it doesn't have to be a negotiation it doesn't have to be a bartering between two ego structures and actually can be your soul and the soul of another meeting as one doesn't mean there's one soul in two bodies it means there's two souls experiencing the beauty and the reality of unity consciousness So, okay, so, or do you have something Joy? No Okay, so something occurs to me that I really wanna dive into is the, in our current kind of dating environment traditional environment, if you will there's this kind of dance where there's this for lack of a better term push and pull in other words, you know don't call someone to create tension or don't act too eager or don't make investment there's all this kind of push pull kind of dynamic and you said something earlier that made me kind of see, you know the difference between divine partnership is it's almost as if when the two of you met you both went for lack of a better word all in Yes You know, like, and I don't mean you shared bank accounts and put each other on your lease sort of thing because I think that might be a little bit impetuous you know, or impulsive to go that extreme but there was this level of all in would you mind sharing in the beginning like the first time you met the first date the first time you were more physically intimate was talk about this all in experience if that's okay Well, you know, when we had met at the event we were speaking at I was in a time in my life where I was really exhausted I really wasn't looking for any kind of relationship whatsoever I was very settled in being alone and I would say to myself and to the universe if it wasn't the kind of connection I've always dreamed of, I'm really not interested and so I went to this event with zero expectation with almost in my mind the opposite of laughing at the idea of even meeting someone and so when I met Joy, when we met and she was also in a place I found out of like hey, unless it's like a series connection I'm not interested here's what I can say the difference is there's a difference when you meet someone and you think you are choosing to be all in which I believe is still a part of a negotiation right, I've vetted you, I've deemed you worthy and I've decided I am going to be all in with you now, Jonathan, I'll tell you what happened to me I don't know that I decided to be all in I think all in decided to be me to be honest I think our relationship informed both of us by the way, you two are together you came here to do business you swore off relationships almost for the rest of your life and by the way, this is the woman you're going to marry and you're now both in a committed relationship and so it was the simultaneous recognition of oh my god, I'm so attracted to you I want to know you and I feel so connected and comfortable with you right and the comfort and the connection and the attraction was eye-opening and by the way, just so you know you two are together so enjoy getting to know each other so what I can say is interesting about a soul connection is that it's one thing to choose to be all in it's another thing when on a mysterious level all in chooses you in the presence of your beloved and that's actually what happened for me and I think that's probably similar to what your experience was yeah and I think I'll share because I think people listening in it's important to understand that we had this feeling and we knew but it also scared us and we had a conversation about that because for us there's still the communication to be all in to recognize okay this connection is the real deal we had to have a conversation about it and so in the very beginning it happened very fast and we made the commitment to each other we're going to be scared and we're going to do it together so instead of us not telling each other that or you know like you said not knowing should I call should I not call we just said hey I just want to talk to you again you know I want to spend the entire event with you we just shared how we were feeling and had sort of this comfort in knowing that it was okay he was my best friend instantly so I wanted to share with him how I was feeling and you know just to add to that when we had had this discussion because here I am meeting this woman who's you know captivating my senses and I had just told myself there's no way I'm going to meet anyone and then two minutes later this is the woman I think it's supposed to be with so I think I'm utterly insane in my own mind and when we start having this conversation one of the most beautiful things that happened in the beginnings we start talking about our fears because we've both become so comfortable and successful in our own lives and we had decided well let's be scared together and so instead of the difficult experience being something that we pulled away to deal with privately or separately we actually made it part of the building block of getting to know each other so we allowed ourselves to be scared together which I think was one of the first important moments of this all in that you're speaking of well okay so I okay I'm really now fascinated with this okay so I want to get even more granular on let's be scared together like yeah what was that conversation like I mean because I can't imagine me ever saying to someone I just met okay let's just be scared together like I don't even know what that means to some degree so can you really elaborate on this because I know there's something deeper and richer to the those words of let's be scared together yeah well when I from from my heart when I said it was hey I'm feeling an incredible amount of feelings and I have also healed from a tremendous amount of hurt in my heart okay and I'm not sure as much as I'm feeling this connection there's a very afraid part of me that's not sure he wants to go there again can go there again or has the bandwidth to go there again and it it wasn't like I was afraid of being hurt or having hurt experiences again it was do I literally have the bandwidth to love for me the most important thing was based on the healing that I had had been healing in my heart for a few years because to experience an attraction with someone is is a beautiful thing but from my perspective love is a responsibility so it's not just do I want to have these impulsive experiences with joy do I literally have it in my heart to care for this connection and relationship like I would you know as we would care for a beloved that's how I believe the responsible thing about intimacy is if I'm considering being intimate with this woman I am also saying yes to caring for the totality of her not decompartmentalizing it into just some you know impulsive physical experience so when we were talking I was my point of view was I am feeling such a connection and I am so tired and I am not sure I have the bandwidth and at the same time I could acknowledge that my bandwidth was from experiences that were different from what we had so it was my human part was tired and just starting to feel good from the healing I had done for a few years in a very intense way starting to feel great got my confidence back at the same time none of those experiences of my past had anything to do with she and I but we have to have this very honest conversation at every level so for me being scared together was being willing to go there and having your deeper conversations yeah I was gonna say I think that's where the growth begins right so that desire to grow we both were cut there were things coming up inside of us because we had healed other relationships that we didn't realize there were aspects that needed to grow which were aspects of ourselves that could have it all our careers we both had you know we're already successful when we met each other and we're already experiencing a life we loved so to come into that really personal experience and devote ourselves to relation to the responsibility of love I love how you said that because this I think revealed to us right away I want to grow with you there's a part of me that hasn't healed yet because I didn't know that I needed you to do that to experience the goodness that could be here and the and the growth that's required for that so okay really quickly everybody watching I just want to share with everyone real quick um you got to check out Matt's book all for love and you got to check out Joy's book queuing up magic did I say that properly queuing up magic okay by the way there's links below to get a copy of their books so just definitely check out their books the reason why I'm mentioning these books is because I'm going to talk about another book related to dating and what prior to preparing for our interview made me think of your relationship so everybody if you've ever heard me talk about the book if the Buddha dated and why I bring up this book frequently is because to me dating relationships today seem transactional and it seems very gender oriented and what I mean to say is men are supposed to do x women are supposed to do y and there's almost this contrived expectation of a relationship in the Buddha dated it's more about how to show up from your heart that's to me the essence of the the core message in the book is how to show up in the dating process from your heart so the two of you Matt you instantly hit it off and by the way for the record if anyone doesn't know this by now Joy and Matt are engaged can you kind of give us those first 90 from the point you met to the point you got engaged kind of what happened in the dating realm because I suspect for the two of you it was from the heart hmm you know the way I describe it is that when Joy and I met spontaneously we both showed each other our connection to spirit we both showed each other our connection to God as our most intimate way of reflecting ourselves to each other so we met in a heart-centered connection and it wasn't until we had you know when I had made the decision we both made the decision of you know I'm ready to not only lean into this as I was informed you know as I agreed to lean into what had occurred and and we were ready to be responsible to embrace our relationship that's when things you know escalated and and deepened but we met in a heart-centered connection and just to kind of go back to something we were saying about transactional relationships sure I think I think one way we can define how people create transactional relationships is that there's a way that the ego perceives attraction and there's a way that the heart perceives attraction and maybe there's parallels to the book you're talking about so when the ego doesn't know if this is a true connection it will lean in and engage in physical intimacy to see if there's more to the connection if it's a heart-centered connection we don't engage in physical intimacy until we know it's that deep so for example someone's coming from their ego they'll say well I don't know if this is really the relationship I'm looking for so let me do all of the intimate things I would do if it were the intimate connection and then when it isn't the intimate connection I I risk pulling the rug from underneath someone's feet I risk hurting someone some people can call the other person turning psycho because when we're intimate when we're physically intimate we are connecting on a very intimate level and so for example when I'm intimate with my beloved I'm literally saying to her I'm giving you a sneak preview of the type of husband I would be to you and if I didn't feel that this connection had that type of connection I actually wouldn't have leaned in I would have just gotten to know her as a friend so I think the really interesting thing is okay whether watching reality tv or we're dating a lot of people when they're coming from their ego say lean into the intimacy to see if there's something there but the heart says let me connect heart to heart let's just get to know each other as people and if there's something deeper there then we become intimate so I think that's really the difference between how we create the potential for intimate connection versus transactional yeah we well you said something earlier that kind of piggybacks this you were aware that your energy or really your intent was coming from an I'm gonna use the word you didn't say this I believe this where you imply it came from an honorable place not from a selfish what can I get but really really honoring joy I mean as particularly as men because we I mean look at instinctually we're driven by our penises I mean let's own it you know it's true at the same time we can control it if we choose to you know sure and and from what I'm gathering from what you just shared it's really more coming from an honorable place and and the two of you had real conversations in the beginning you didn't have surface conversations am I right you know it wasn't about how's your day going it's really what are you looking for in your relationship I'm kind of gathering what I think you've experienced in those early you had deeper meaningful conversations is that right I think absolutely from the moment we met we began dating we began the dating process we started sharing I wanted to know who he was I wanted to know all about Matt and he wanted to know all about joy and so we started asking each other questions and sharing our mutual interest and I think that was the key I would say interest in each other and that drive to ask those questions and connect more deeply it was less about what do you want in relationship right it was more because I think we both sense that we would build the relationship together how we wanted that but did I did I know this man I wanted to know everything yeah and I think that's a great thing to point out is that it was in joy and I both sitting there going are you the criteria of my checklist am I the criteria for checklist it was literally two people saying I want to know you on the most intimate level we're sitting at this breakfast pre thing for for this event we were speaking at her best friend was sitting between us in the crossfire watching this going what is happening and the entire room disappears and I literally I'm not thinking about does she check boxes not that I actually operate like that because I really don't but it was literally just here is a frequency of a woman that I have never known before and I want and what's interesting too sometimes you hear people say oh it's like you met and you go oh I've known you in a different past life my experience wasn't like that my experience was I want to know everything about this person and she wants to know everything about me and we are just in this getting to know process and so we started already in that heart to heart connection the spark was there and there was no list it was just I want to know her she wants to know me and the world disappeared at breakfast but if there was a list as you discover as you're with somebody we discovered yeah that had there been a list it was all boxes checked oh my gosh she all boxes she is the list well I mean well to some degree you know I mean and again I'm an advocate for discernment I mean that's my whole coaching practice is all about finding out if we're really on the same page and how we do that is by asking questions so you know if and and I'm a big proponent of this some people think that's interviewing I think that's being curious and what the two of you have described is two curious people approaching the process from a very healthy way even though for most people this is going to sound like I said woo woo and you know could be you know you know could be you know potentially riddled with disaster like the twin flame conversation we had earlier so okay I want to now share something personal with everybody because that relates to both joy and mad so for those who don't know I actually met joy about six years ago at a convention it happened to be a convention of a woman entrepreneur giving other women entrepreneurs advice and I happen to be invited by a friend of mine so there was like 200 women 10 men by the way for any men watching this if you really want to go to a place to meet women go where there's a rich environment of women so I'm sitting at a table and we were required to do an assignment and we had to pick someone and I picked or I reached over to joy said because we're sitting at the same table so would you like to do this assignment together and we began chatting during this assignment and I don't I believe a half hour went by and I wrote on a piece of paper I said I like you you remember that joy right okay by the way I still have it it's in my my office I have that piece of paper what why I'm sharing this was this wasn't a romantic connection there was just an interesting affinity between the two of us and and we began hanging out the entire time of the convention and nothing romantic really evolved from this experience it was just more I felt like our souls recognized each other it wasn't meant to go down a romantic journey it was just it was meant to be a friendship and and I really cherish that between the two of us joy I mean I treasure our friendship because you've been such a big influence in my life and you supported me during a time where I was going through a lot of immersion emotional turmoil and and I bring this up because folks you know Matt and Joy represent what I think are two emotional grown-ups okay and when emotional grown-ups meet each other and there's a there by the way I wasn't an emotional grown-up when I met you Joy that's why it didn't work out I was going through my evolution just like Matt before you met Joy you shared you were going through your evolution I actually I wrote something down on a piece of paper I said timing is the moment you evolve from a different evolution that's where timing is that you just evolve from an evolution you went through okay I'm babbling here for a moment so everyone stick with me so Joy and our friends she meets Matt she mentions it and by the way Joy you knew Matt professionally and I followed Matt professionally I've been watching your videos for years Matt I just think you're a brilliant individual that has a lot of wisdom to share okay fast forward I'm taking a long time to share this story so please don't leave yet everyone Joy reaches out to me she said I'm Matt I'm in a relationship it's with Matt Conn I'm like oh great I love them everything and you've been dating for a while and you said I'd like to introduce you to him on the phone or on a zoom call so the three of us got together on a zoom call and within I think it was the first three or four minutes Matt says well do you want to share what you said so you had said where you live and it was near where I grew up and I'm and I'm just I'm look as we're on the zoom call and for all intents and purposes I'm meeting Joy's great friend Jonathan who's a dating coach and so great to meet you right I'm meeting all of Joy's friend she's meeting all of my friends and I certainly and what's interesting is I'm looking at your face and I'm watching your speech patterning and I'm watching all these little things and I'm just hmm what is curious about this that I looked at you and I said hey Jonathan I think 18 years ago I was your personal trainer and I helped you get ready for your high school reunion because I used to be a personal trainer in Southern California and back in that day you're getting ready for a high school reunion and I was your personal trainer and this is when I would give people intuitive advice without knowing I'm even giving advice and I was just a trainer I was contemplating competing and bodybuilding at that time many moons ago I when we stopped training I went off on my spiritual journey you went on your journey and then we meet up again and I'm just thinking I'm meeting Joy's friend and I'm like and life is bonkers well you know why I'm sharing this with everyone because coming back to divine connections soul connections partnerships you know it doesn't have to always necessarily mean romantic I think there is there was an interesting affinity when I met you Matt that and you trained both my my both me and my now ex-wife and and we really appreciated your your kindness your care I mean it's it's I'm not surprised to see the evolution of who you've become from the man I met 18 20 years ago so but at the same time I'm bringing this up because people come into our lives for a real I believe for a special reason and I don't mean specialness in the course of miracles way of specialness I mean and just to have some people can have a profound effect some people can have you know a minor effect that can set the trajectory of your life and the two of you for me personally have have been that for me you've been um people that have really helped me grow as a person and so coming back to dating and relationships oftentimes people look at their past experiences as a failure as a as a block to love and I know the two of you subscribed to something different and I'd like to lean into this for a few minutes chatting about every experience before you meet your you know every experience is leading you to this divine partnership I mean do you agree or disagree with this I'm just curious I wholeheartedly agree I think everyone is part of your pathway and in some way shape or form and whether that's you know people think of that as woo woo I think there's some sort of divine orchestration that's happening and in that orchestration we meet people who have important parts of our in our journey and you played an important part still do as my friend and I recognize that that that soul connection was there when we met and I care deeply for you you're like you're like a brother a good friend you're right and and you've helped me on my journey become who I am today to be here with Matt so I absolutely agree absolutely I absolutely agree and I think that when people get a two connection in a transactional way when they get intimate before they are connected and aligned on a heart level and then when it comes to multitudes and it falls apart if you've defined the ex as a character who's you know villainous or you know oh they did this to me or this happened between us it could be hard for someone's ego to say how can this person who I experienced such suffering and hardship with also play a positive role in what's meant to be and the truth is everything in our lives from every partnership whether our families whether a current partner a co-parent an ex the teacher that was mean when you were in grade school every person in our life you play this in my life we all play the role of helping to refine and polish our highest potential and we are either attracting people or who are helping to amplify the shine of that polish in preparation for those we're meant to connect with in the deepest level or helping us to heal what needs to be healed to make space for that type of connection so you know I could look at my life and I think Joey can probably say the same thing and I can say every single person in my life every interaction every experience prepared me for the moment that she and I met and I'm grateful for all of the wisdom I've received I'm grateful for all the pain I've gone through I'm grateful for all of the disappointments and unrequited expectations because it made me into exactly who I needed to be to be with joy and vice versa so I think for both of us and I don't think it's Wu Wu to say it we're just too grateful in love beings who are rooted in the maturity of growth change and being willing to take this journey together and it's it's you know again truly truly grateful yeah okay so I'm gonna go down a different rabbit hole for a moment okay and then I'm gonna bring it I'm actually gonna have you coach I'm gonna have the two of you coach me at the end of this broadcast okay so uh but I want to go down a rabbit hole so you guys sound so perfect I'm getting a cavity listening to this it's so sweet I'm being tongue-in-cheek everyone all right so look at relationships aren't perfect okay but the way you two sound it sounds perfect okay so where if you're open to sharing have you guys had any conflict is there any differences I mean how have you overcome them I mean let's get real for a moment it ain't it isn't perfect is it how would you say that I think I would answer that from the perspective of what people's expectations of perfection are because I would say it's not perfect in the realm of every single thing is like you know this red carpet has rolled out for us and every aspect of our life is exactly the way that we want you know we have plumbing issues we have you know the we're navigating I have children Matt doesn't there are all these aspects that we have come together to share and learn from each other but again it's the focus on growth so for us that's not about it being imperfect it's actually divinely perfect and we've chosen to grow together in whatever life brings through our experience so I think it's I think it's really about perception of the individual coming into the relationship we happen to share that yeah 100% I think that the way I would word this and I feel like it's mutual for both of us again you can let me know that as a man I'm not in a relationship with this idea of here's what I want from joy or here are the experiences we can have every day to make it better than anything I've had in the past what Joy and I have is whether we wake up and we're integrated from an upgrade we go through because we both go through energetic stuff and we go through it together whether we're both downloading or we both feel like we've been reborn or maybe Joy woke up and is dealing with a headache okay there isn't a sense of oh that's in the way of what I want from her and how how long am I gonna put up with this until I'm paid back and that's a transactional language yeah what we have is when she's at her best okay when she's less than her best I desire showing up for her not waiting for her to fulfill me with certain ways or activities I'm madly in love with showing up for this woman and I believe and you could confirm this that she equally is madly in love with showing up for me so our passion isn't you do this and I do this or both could be happy campers just you that's how it usually is we are both madly in love with showing up for each other and I think most people's experiences I'm only willing to show up for someone that first shows up for me and what we have is an ability to show up for each other we don't step back and wait for the other one to show up first I literally am in love with showing up for this woman and the version of me I get to experience by showing up for her and I get to experience her being her highest self showing up for me and that's the passion that we get to bask in every single day every day oh fuck I'm jealous you too obviously I don't hold back so everyone I want to share a conversation I had with joy some months ago I think it was after not only that you met but got engaged you said something that really struck me and I want to piggyback on what Matt just shared as well you said and I'm paraphrasing this but your relationship is based on three things a connection with the divine meaning each for everyone the way I interpret this is each each of you has a connection with something beyond yourself it's connection to your spiritual self whether we call it god universe spirit I call it Gus God universe spirit get it and by the way I didn't coin that someone else taught me that you two are devoted to growth and what I believe that what you said was we're both devoted to our individual growth and also the growth of our relationship and you also said we're devoted to each other yeah and what Matt you just shared that we show up for each other that's right when I hear those words and I really think about the very first date people go on in the world that I in the world that I'm involved in the the I don't mean individually transactional world but the world of dating a relationship you know where I speak to there's some there's a big difference between meeting someone and saying what can I get yeah versus what can I give yeah like there and I would like for both of you to spend a minute on that because to me this saddens me so much because the the realm I'm coaching in is the transactional realm and it's what can I get instead of what can I get well and to touch upon that in an indirect way okay what what was it that put me in the position approach that puts me in a position as a man to have the mindset to have the ethics to say what can I give versus what can I get because a lot of people will hear this and they'll think it's something you have to it's it's a pretend it's a put on it's a I have to pretend good point right and I'm actually literally that man who literally thinks what can I give versus what can I get so the question is how did I get there in my life and I mean I can say a lot of things yeah what I would say is before joy and I met I was in a monogamous relationship with my beloved I was single I was not dating I do not date I would only go on a date with someone that I was had some sense was going to go into a serious relationship and marriage I was only interested in courtship and so I I'm not someone who casually dates I am someone only interest because the things that I would do in an interpersonal way on a date are things that I would do with my wife and why would I do things with a woman who I don't know yet is going to be my wife why would I put her in wife position if that's not where our connection is now that's not that's not nice to put someone in a position and that's not healthy for me so for me what allows me as a man to focus on naturally without even effort what can I get versus what can I get is because I was already in a fully committed monogamous relationship with my beloved she just hadn't revealed herself to me and so then as we met and started to get to know each other the person stepped into the relationship I was actually already in which is different than let's just date around which is there's no problem with that there's nothing wrong with that but if you're going to be around like that it's very difficult for this type of relationship and frequency to enter your reality so I was already husband I just didn't have I didn't know who my wife was and so if I'm already husband and she was already wife when she didn't know that I was going to be the one then when we meet we're already in the ethical value of what can I give versus what can I get and I believe that's really such an important piece that we have to as beings even if you're single whether you're using dating apps or not if you're in a monogamous relationship with your partner before they even entered your reality your senses your intuition are going to be able to say no to that person and not like let me see how close we can get well they are one track not five or well they're nothing close to what I want but hey life's too short what the hell instead she and I were both in an intimate monogamous relationship with each other we just didn't know who each other were and so when we met it all clicked so easily I would love to share something around that because I think yeah this is something we've talked about and before we met I was you know I had we both we dated people before we met but the the moment I knew because we were committed to being in a monogamous relationship with our beloved we there were we approached dating and relationships differently we were looking for the one and when it wasn't the one it was actually quite easy for me to say you know what I need to end this relationship you know I wasn't abrupt like hey you're not the one you know I'm sorry but there was always this there was this sense and I knew this person isn't the one I didn't know it was Matt but so then when I met Matt it was so easy for me to be clear yeah yeah yeah so it's interesting I want to piggyback on something on both on a personal level and I want to take the balance of the interview to a personal thing so I interviewed Rabbi Manis Friedman six months ago on do you follow him on YouTube do either one of you have seen him on YouTube okay so so but he said something interesting in one of his videos is why I interviewed him he says you have to want to be a husband like I mean he was specifically talking to Matt you have to want to be a husband not looking for a wife you have to want to be a husband and what I'm hearing from you Matt in particular and you as well Joy is you'd already resigned yourself I want to be a husband and by the way husband can mean a variety of different things I mean it doesn't have to necessarily be a legal contract with the government per se but it also can be that as well but you'd already made up you were in a space where you wanted to be a husband why I'm talking about this is in the conventional world that we're living in this transactional world a lot of men don't operate that way I mean that you had to reach a level within yourself to say that am I right I mean you had to really go through your evolution why I'm bringing this up as folks I recognize this within myself I'm in that space in my life and if I look back at all the experiences I had before this I know the difference of what that feels like to say I want to be a husband instead I'm looking for a wife okay so with that said I want you two to spend the balances conversation coaching me so I want you to coach me right now for the next five minutes all right so uh you want to start or what well I think I think always in conversation when we're thinking about where we want to be is what do you want right so I think you opened it up where you want a relationship but do you want to be a husband and what and what are your intentions for a relationship in general like I think that's that that's always the most important piece yeah well I'm very clear I want a fully committed relationship that leads either moving in together getting married and I certainly I've reached a place of where oops let me bring me back to the conversation um I've reached a mindset where I'm I'm capable I want to use the words I'm capable and ready to go all in like I might have had a desire in the past to go all in but it was a desire not a capability I think there's a big difference you could desire something but you may not be physically ready for it but I I feel like I'm ready to go all in with someone to be a husband to to and and really grow with another person both as an individual and as myself I do recognize a connection with the divine is really important for me I didn't realize that before in my previous relationship how important that is and also that space of of being devoted to each other like I'm I know that I'm ready for all three of these pieces if you will um all right so I just said that out loud any thoughts two questions just for contemplation purposes okay in order to have the kind of connection that you want yeah right because when men get into connection and it's works on a romantic level but that's the only place that's rooted when there's a conflict it's either going to be a son mother archetype or it's going to be a sister brother kind of thing and so a lot of people try to focus on the intimacy because that's where it really works so in order to have a connection where you're intimate on every level two questions okay one is are you willing to listen more than you share and are you willing to fulfill their needs or a need of theirs before asking for one of your needs to be met that's husband territory that's great got it got it got it so well I'm I'm I'm an inquisitive person so to some degree I ask a lot of questions because I like to listen you know so I can hold space listening it's what I do professionally I think one of my hang ups has been I'll be candid with you is I haven't felt that equal curiosity from the other side right and so I want to say that's a need you know I need to feel seen I need to feel I need to I need someone to want to be curious about me because I'm ultra curious I'm like fact I'm almost to the point of it ad nauseam curious you know but I will hold space for their curiosity so I think from that regard I'm there what was the second piece Matt well I would add on a second question to the second question was are you willing to fulfill one of their needs before you ask for whatever your needs be met but I would say with the curiosity question okay when I do an intuitively what I feel like might be a building block that can help you is that you're curious to get to know someone you're also desiring them to be curious in you yeah sometimes when we get to know people there are obviously moments when the curiosity is us going back and forth sharing and then there are moments when we're actually being still together that intimacy isn't always I'm sharing or joy sharing it's a willingness to be silent and still together and so sometimes if you're with someone and they may not be asking you the kind of exciting questions you're asking them it might be perceived as a lack of interest and maybe this person is just trying to get to know what your frequency feels like in a non-verbal setting and so when you're getting to know someone the question is is this someone I'm interested in being still with if they're not engaging my ego and my ego is not being engaged by their interest in me am I still interested in leaning in even if there's no mind being stimulated yeah okay well I'm gonna you know on that note I'm gonna sit with that really want to process that and sit with that you know on my own you know what this conversation about divine partnerships is really a joy for me to use your name joy but it's it's been a real pleasure for me I'm really grateful that the two of you came on I'm so excited about your relationship together I'm excited to witness how the two of you unfold as the months move on in your both your relationship but also in your professional capacity everyone I want to remind everyone of joy's book queuing or let me just put me on the screen for a second queuing up and Matt's book all for love if you can see that I there's going to be links below to get a copy of both their books I highly recommend it um you too thank oops let me bring me back up thanks for allowing me to talk to you guys I'm so happy for you both thank you so much and thanks for playing such a pivotal role in both of our lives we really love you so much yeah likewise so I'm gonna reach into the camera and give you both a big gigantic Jonathan bear hug and I look forward to talking to you guys real soon everyone I hope you found value in our interview talking about divine partnerships there'll be links below to check out Matt's work to check out joy's work as well there'll be links below for all that so everyone let's all go say goodbye