 I didn't have all the posts because one day I sat down, I just started following them up, you know, up the tree in Wikipedia. And the same thing for Dr. Who. It would be much easier for Dr. Who because there have been many few actors playing Dr. Who than there have been popes. But the history of the papacy is one messy story. If you could go back in time, Jerry, how would you fix up a story? Which story? The popes story. The popes story. Oh, don't even get me started. I'll start a religious war right here. That would just continue the story, wouldn't it? Exactly. I mean, it's not like you could just kind of patch up one of the bourgeois popes or something like that or the Medici. I saw a meme recently that said, pick your battles. And then it said, no, that's too many battles. Now reduce the number of battles. That's pretty good. I mean, like the Treaty of Tordesillas, which comes right after a papal bull that I don't remember the name of, basically draws the line where Brazil gets, you know, this part of the world, Spain gets the rest of the world, et cetera, and also says, and if you run into any locals and they don't know the name of Jesus Christ, they and everything they possess are yours. Yes, yes. I'm sorry. That was a snort of indignance. I like the snort. I thought the snort was really appropriate there. Is that what they call a bull, a papal bull? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was actually drawn on large sheets. So that was a papal bull sheet. Lauren, if you're talking to us, you're muted. No, I'm not talking to you. You're good. Okay, good. You're doing, you're doing local crowd control and that's great. But I thought you were trying to say something maybe to us. Why don't we do a brief check in? Hang, it is not quite through yet. Your headphones. There we go. Well, there's Hank. Good. And we are recording. Fabulous. Thank you. Is my audio okay? Because I'm not using earbuds. I've got them nearby and I'm just trying talking over the thing. Great. Okay. Charles, I like your artsy background. Very cool. Instagram apparently added a new feature called Reels yesterday, which is supposed to compete with TikTok. And I am not an Insta user really pretty much at all, but I attempted to find the feature on Android phone and was completely incapable of locating anything. It was a miserable experience. So if anybody has any experience with Reels, LMK. Other than that, let's do a little check in and I'll just go by who's in the Hollywood squares on my screen. So Nancy, Neil, Anthony for starters. Dang, having to go first. Yeah, yeah. I'll be here for about 45 minutes because it's a day of meetings. I am unsure about participation to be quite honest. Just because of so much time in Zoom meetings and competing things. I'm spending a lot of my time thinking about how to have a more generous and generative dialogue about the back to school challenges in our school district, because there's so much anger and hate going on in the Facebook threads that doesn't help anybody, particularly the kids. I'm starting to, you know, worry about the rub off on kids, particularly. So trying to understand what I'm holding both the bad situation and hope looks like simultaneously and continuing on my self education on anti-racism. So busy at that and working like crazy. Sounds like it. Yeah. I'm going to ask a question in the chat. It's to you Nancy, but also kind of to everybody, which is given what you know now about OGM, because you've been on a bunch of calls and so forth and watched the traffic on the list. What is it that we could do that would just like make it like, you know, damn, I must spend time here because it's paying off. And one of the things that's on my to-do list is resources on anti-racism and how, you know, how do we communicate those kinds of things? I would love to build those out and that that's on my way too long to do list. But is something like that useful or is something like that just like, okay, there's plenty of resources already. What is it we could do? And part of what I'm trying to figure out how to express is that OGM isn't necessarily trying to fix the world's problems or negotiate on the list how to solve all the world's problems. We're trying to figure out how to amplify good people's solutions and how to connect them so that they interoperate and how to connect all of that to credible dialogue and vulnerability so that we might solve the world's problems. But, you know, I think that's kind of a meta goal of some sort that I'm still trying to articulate. Anyway, you just provoked all of that. Neil and Anthony Ben-Chien. Thanks, Jerry. Thanks, Nancy. Hi, everybody. How to start? I'm going through a beginner's mind experience now in my fourth week of learning Dutch and the embarrassment and the humility of not being able to articulate what it is that I'm thinking or we even get the letters right for most of the things I'm spelling or sounding. So that's an interesting experience to be learning the new language at the age of 60. Secondly, in terms of framing in the context of what Jerry just asked, when I frame my question that Nancy just asked, where do I put my time and energy? Where are the biggest levers for strategic shift given we're in ecological collapse and climate chaos? And so I'm looking for how do we find ways of creating the high enough system ethics that guide how we all collaborate so that the mechanisms and the tools and the information and the knowledge and the wisdom and the weaving that's potentially available through OGM actually makes the biggest difference in the time we have available while we still have the resources to do this. And so I may have come in at the wrong end in the OGM discourse conversation and forgive me if I haven't read all the right rules. I was trying to work out how to write the rules. What are the highest level guidance principles for how we all work at whatever level we want to work. I've had a conversation brief conversation with Ken prior to his censoring in the last week. I also had a wonderful conversation with Matt Sire. I missed Hank. I think Hank was unfortunately dragged away elsewhere. So looking forward to catching up with Hank at some stage. I'm looking to see how I can align some of my thinking which is more intuitive sensing into what needs to be done with a broad systemic bent and intuitively seeing connections and patterns, some of which are real. And then finding out ways of working with those in the group. How do we frame this in a way? And I'll finish on this. My sense is that there may be a need for some sort of crow's nest style approach where those with the highest, I don't mean this in a hierarchical sense, the highest capability and maturity to see and sense this big picture can provide guidance and assistance to those doing multiple other objectives, whatever it is that they choose to work on. And I can see all of those potentials in several of the groups I'm involved with. But it's a question of whether they want to be realized by the groups. So I'll leave it at that. Thank you for asking me to check in. That's lovely, Neil. Thank you. I really appreciate it. When you say at what level should we intervene, are you referring to damelemetos, levels of intervention in the system, or are you referring to something sort of more general and your own ideas of where one might intervene? Well, damelemetos is one example where the highest level is a level of paradigm. And if you take it at the context of coherence with cosmic law or Gaian, let all survive or let keep all alive type indigenous wisdoms, then I would suggest that the tools that are available to us ought to be used in life generating and regenerative practices, which then comes into the elements that Nancy and yourself have talked about with Black Lives Matter, with the other mechanisms for how do we address indigenous healing, how do we heal ourselves. So it's that big picture coherence in the context of who do we individually choose to be? Who do we collectively choose to be? How do we self govern and self regulate and co-regulate within those systems? And then with that, how do we now use that intention to guide all actions, not as a set of rules which must be followed, but as the cultural creed by which we choose to bring ourselves to the world in this critical period between having all the resources we could ever want and watching everything grow and about to see peak everything and everything collapse. And we're in this sweet spot right now. In fact, it may have been too late, but we can choose who and how we show up. And that's what I'm trying to do. Thank you. If you're not currently speaking, if you'll mute your Zoom, that'd be great. And let's go Anthony, Jean, then Hank. Hi, Anthony Marchados. My passion is bringing systems thinking to the masses. It's been a very disjointed set of concepts and principles and tying them all together via simple graphics that I think would be a tremendous help to making system, bringing systems thinking out of the backwaters basically, because I think it's been relegated back there. My background is organizational systems, but I would guess in all facets of science, it's been pretty much in the backwaters. And there's a lot to be done with just simple graphics to tie concepts together to teach people and help people to bring systems thinking to the forefront. Jean's been helping me. I've got a group or the subgroup on the main page. So yeah, things are going pretty good. Awesome. Thank you, Anthony. Jean, then Hank, then Judy. Me and Romar are all in. I canceled my subscription to the brain one more time. Wow, man. The brain dies one more time in Jean's life? Yeah. It's only been 23 years. It's almost impossible to explain how it works the way it does. And it's just, I'm all in. The other thing is, explain how Rome works, you mean? Yes. I mean, I spent four days doing absolutely everything wrong because I didn't understand the paradigm shift. And then all of a sudden it clicked. And it just, it's amazing. The other thing is, you are currently a member of, or you joined a piece of software that the Kuma people did called Weaver. I'm currently working with them to make some fixes to Weaver so that it will support the kinds of things that OGM is trying to do in terms of enabling resources to connect with other resources that are working on the same kind of problems when they need to. It's quite a ways along, but it just, there are certain places where it's really collugy. And the other thing is, I'm still working on my asynchronous virtual collaboration model, and I'm almost at a point where I'm about to invite some other people to participate in its continued development. So that's where I am. Awesome. And even that you're loving Rome so much, it feels like at some point we should have another hoedown. And then have you use that just to show us how it would be useful in a topic just so we can get a better sense for it. And you're really good at talking about when things clicked into place in your brain. So if you could as close as possible approximate that aha, even though it seems to be ineffable and indescribable as you were saying, that'd be great. Yeah, I know, sir, I know, sir, for the curse of knowing. Yes, exactly. I will do that in the future if you'd like. Thank you. Hank, Judy Hamilton. Cool. Good morning, everybody. Sorry, I'm getting a whole bunch of emails to somebody's birthday here that we work with. So if you hear a whole bunch of outlook notifications, just forgive it, please. But I'll send this person your birthday wishes anyway. Doing well. I'm coming off of three days of obsessions. Yeah, like you said, Neil, I did get pulled into something with with work, but it was a good, you know, learning experience for me. So that's just kind of speaking, speaking personally, it was good to kind of see that delivery from from punk back. You know, as far as og me stuff goes, you know, I've been I think for a couple weeks, I've kind of taken my hands off of the wheel, not that I have my hands on a steering wheel necessarily, but you know, just and just been like watching and seeing, you know, what what little conversations are popping up and which ones might I be interested in and you know, I'm kind of I try to enter conversations pretty intentionally. So part of my, you know, part of that exercise has been just, you know, learning enough to feel like I can actually show up in some of the ones that I'm at least interested in. I would say that it's been awesome, you know, from my perspective to see, you know, some of the some of the threads on discourse filling up Jerry. So so thanks again for to you and Pete for putting that together. I would say in an answer to your question, you know, I don't know that it's necessarily, you know, maybe a collective action that we can take is to really just kind of embrace the emergent, the emergent, you know, structure of or piece of OGM, you know, I've seen a lot of conversation and this is all very warranted because I feel the same way same way to have people just wanting to do do do and I totally get it because I'm a doer. But at the same time, you know, I do think that there is a piece of it that we kind of need to take the keys and to take the keys right and just say like listen, I want to talk about this or I want to go do this and who wants to do it with me and and I think that that will help, you know, kind of create some gravity around some of the conversations that some of us have brought up. And so that's kind of where I'm at with it, other than that. Yeah, I think just a personal plug. I know I've posted a couple times about, you know, network mapping and I've got some ideas bubbling up. I haven't sat down and just written anything yet, which is my primary motive like articulating my own thoughts. You know, I kind of write to think and then refine it. That being said, if anybody's interested in having that conversation or jumping in on that conversation, please reach out to me, whether it be via email or on that on the discourse. So those little long passing it back. Thank you. You're muted. Thank you. And sort of my apologies to the group because I have not gone into discourse and really dug through and replied and so forth. And there's a lot of hunger for, okay, what exactly is our mission and what are action items and all that. And many of you know, I'm not necessarily an action items oriented kind of guy. So I love what you just said Hank, which is like, take the tiller and go try something. And we'll go from there. But I this afternoon, I should have time to go discourse in the discourse and see how it goes. Judy Hamilton, Ken. Well, I guess I'm pursuing two things more intensely than the rest of the bigger picture. One is how to have crucial conversations with the right groups of catalytic people to try to get dengritic action on some of the issues that we're dealing with right now and how to engage those people in eliciting further conversations so that we get more outreach. And I've also been doing some heavier background work on alternative approaches to the back of school model in terms of the socialization dimensions with children, children to children learning. How do you take that from the physical world to the virtual world, that sort of stuff, which is way topical. I mean, and I'd be really interested in having an OGM side conversation if somebody would like to about back to school reopening, learning resources, all that kind of thing. I think that would be super useful, which could include We could also easily have a separate session where several of us show up and and teach something, listen to something, offer ourselves as resources to some of the kids who show up. And I think that'd be super interesting. I found a really interesting 30-year-old report like 1988 from UNESCO on children to children learning. That's probably one of the better things I've seen in all of looking back in corporate custom. Kind of sad that it's that old and still not really gameplay, but interesting. Yeah, thank you. Hamilton, Ken Jay. Hi, guys. I work with Hank and Matt, so I too, I'm going to probably get some things here for one of our co-workers' birthdays. It's funny. I've been so busy too. I think Nancy, you said that, so busy. I feel like Ant-Man too. You guys are all like up here and I have been working, I was working for the past three days with the top 30 leaders of a federal home loan bank. If you thought banks were sexy, you should work with a government bank. But they, but I was working on OGM in some way. I mean, I was pouring energy into OGM because at a microscopic, very sort of tactical, not world-changing level, micro world-changing level, but this was a group of 30 leaders who had to come up with a budget. They had to cut $10 million from like a $160 million budget. And it was the first time they had to work together to get it done. It was the only way they were going to get it done. Historically, lack of transparency was the power in your budget, right? And you guys, whoever, you know, if you work in this, you know that. And they had to all let down their guard and start to be transparent about where the real costs were so they could sort of have this shared accountability. And I was like, this is OGM. This is this moment where, if I could just insert OGM somehow into the way that they think, I could set them on such a better course, right? For how they do that, for how a group of 30 people come together in a new way, are transparent with each other and solve a problem. And it was such a micro obvious thing, right? It's, I mean, back to school, like solving planet hunger, all that stuff obviously at such higher order, but it was such an, I just sort of really saw it in relief. It was like a little studio session. So that's what I've been working on. I was real jazzed by it. That's really cool. Thank you. Also, there's some simple visualizations about budgets, budget visualizations, keep maps, timelines, and a few other things that I'm surprised we don't have and use more often, because as, as, as objects for conversation and for decision making, they're super powerful. Yeah. And budgeting is such a metaphor for your own agency, right? I mean, like when you're trying to sort of collaborate, it's just like, it's a very economical measure, but the principles are the same of just about equality and trying to sort of put something bigger than yourself together. I don't know. Thank you. Ken J. Maxx. Hello, everybody. We're to start. Well, I've been working for the US Census. I'm a field supervisor, which means I have an iPad. And the reason I'm a, I have such a large team is the census doesn't have enough money to buy iPads for all the supervisors. So my team is 52 people instead of 25. I have been working like 10, 11 hour days, trying to do those training. It's been totally chaotic. No one seems to know what's going on. Communication is terrible. I was talking to one of the long time census workers up there, and he was talking about some guy coming in doing management by intimidation, which to me sounded like code for we have someone in here from the administration who's just pressuring us to get things done regardless of whether we can do them well or not. 10 years ago, I have a friend who did the census 10 years ago. They were extremely organized. So I think the pressure from the top is really filtering into the census. And it makes me quite angry as a, you know, somebody who understands how important the accuracy of the census is and how there is a concerted effort at the top to really screw it up. It's working. They're really screwed up. So I'll set that aside. And that brings me to coming into OGM or what makes it worthwhile. I've been studying ecology and systems now for 35 years and been aware, you know, since the 60s coming of, you know, being a teenager in the 60s, or actually I started in the 70s, but being a kid in the 60s watching the protests. And I was there at the first earth in 1970, and things have just gotten worse and worse and worse, despite all of the social activism and all of this stuff. So my question for OGM is, what do we do in the face of this? Clearly, our efforts to slow the planetary erosion in so many ways have not been successful on a collective level. It brings us to the question of power. When you have governments and corporations controlling all the levers that say, we're gonna take the coal out of the ground. We're gonna destroy this mountain. We're gonna, in this big open pit mine, we're gonna dump chemicals into your drinking supply. We're gonna frack all that stuff. How can we actually mount an effective campaign that changes that? Because it feels like if we don't do that, then we can talk all we want about highly wonderful conceptual things. But this goes to the question of where are the levers? How do we get our hands in there in a way that is really effective? And I don't have a deep background in this, but Jerry, you know, Elizabeth Dodie, she was studying Vaslav Havel's work and said that he and his cohort decided that rather to try and fight the existing system, they would simply act as if the new one they wanted was there. So what would that look like for us? If we said, okay, we're gonna create a system that actually works and we're just gonna start with everybody we know to get them on board to make this work. And maybe that can fill throughout, as you say, to amplify the works of good people who are attempting to solve the problems. So I don't know how distraught that was, but it's the best I can do given the state of my brain. That was actually phenomenal. Thank you. And my own sort of amateur two cents on systems change. First, I think I pay a lot of attention to the scripts that are running in everybody's heads. And I think that most of us don't know 80% of the scripts that are running in our heads. And the scripts were put there where the scripts are sort of not natural, they're socialized in, we learn the man, etc. But we absorb them. And then we hold up all of reality to the scripts in our heads. Right. So if time is money, then I'm going to budget my time like it was money. And their metaphors, and some of them are not, they're not all metaphors, but, but we don't understand most of the scripts in our heads. And the Titanic battle over history is to affect and change the scripts that are in many people's heads that form up a culture or a civilization. So, and these, these scripts don't change very often. They, and then when they change, they tip very substantially so that we don't remember the old script. And in fact, part of the tipping is to demonize the old script. So we're like, that old script, we were so stupid then, or that was really primitive or whatever. And so, and so I'll add to that the story of Milton Erickson, which I may have told here before, but I don't think I have. Milton Erickson was a therapist and a hypnotist back in the Great Depression. He had polio twice in his life, the first time it knocked him out as a kid. So he couldn't really move for about a year and a half. But his family was really great. They would drag him out to the living room and let him sit there. And he learned to read facial expressions and skin tone and vocal tone so that he could read people's emotions well. And he used hypnosis to manage his pain also. But, but he was known for his handshake induction and for talking, his whole theory was he was talking to your unconscious to give it more options, more behavioral options, because he thought your unconscious is always on duty. It's always thinking it's trying to protect you and do the right thing. And more often than not it's doing the wrong thing. So if he could, if he could give it more things to do instead of the freak out option, for example, that you might heal. So, so he would do just a little bit and cause a large change in his clients. And so that whole story about Milton Erickson for that small point, which is I keep looking for, what is the tiny thing that propagates well, like the ALS ice bucket challenge, right? What is the tiny thing that profit or free hugs or who knows what, what is the tiny thing that propagates well, perhaps a meme, Lauren, that can cause a large scale tipping into a new way of seeing one another so that we can see that we're all in the big house instead of instead of it's our individual homes and us acting selfishly that leads to a good future, it's actually us acting together in the ways that that we've been talking about here. So, so I have this this unrealistic wish that at some point we're going to locate some of these stories that can replace the bigger story that will cause a lot of people to start acting sort of harmoniously because we're on board with a bit with a better story. And then I can point to, I collect in my brain tons and tons and tons of organizations and institutions that are trying to change the story. There's like five organizations called, you know, changing the American Dream or some variant of that. And there's a bunch of others because it's not just the American Dream that's screwed up. And Neil, do you want to jump in right now? Just a very quick one. Scott made a comment about personal script awareness is absolutely critical but requiring part to burn away part of your own identity. Picking up on your point, Jerry, there's also the recognition that we're not all operating from the same story. I just had a glitch in my, can you hear me? We're operating from multiple stories. And so the new story needs to be able to transcend to include and transcend or potentially transcend to then include the old stories. It needs to show how those who currently have that story are still supported as they burn away the part that doesn't work anymore. And that requires facing bigger realities than their current complacent comfort level. And this is the challenge. This is a transformative consciousness challenge because if they still believe we can continue to have utopian worlds with resources coming out of our ears as we head for peak everything, we're all screwed. And so we have to somehow get vertical coherence across multiple levels of story and multiple levels of reality. And that to me is the challenge of an OGM. I like that and I want to go back to it as a deeper conversation later. I'm not sure I agree that the new story has to transcend and include the old one. That seems like a requirement for the new story that I'm not sure I understand from what you said. And there was one more thing that came through. So Dave Gray years ago created a diagnostic deck he was using with corporate clients. And basically it had a series of corporate dysfunctions drawn nicely because he's a good artist. And he would just hand this deck to a potential client and have them sort it into, yes, this is present in our company and this is not. It was insanely simple, insanely simple, very visual and pretty much every card in the deck was like you could easily intuit what that was. And it allowed him to have the person sort of tell the story of what was working, what wasn't working in the organization. I've not seen one of these and I'm sure like there's a hundred different personality inventories and diagnostics for schizophrenia and for mental acuity as we've seen through Trump who did identify the elephant, luckily. But how do we identify our own scripts? How do we call them forward so that we can realize what scripts are actually driving our choices and our behaviors? I think that's incredibly important. It would be interesting to see how that plays out as an artifact we can use. So I'll just put that on the table. Max, then Lauren, then Bentley. Hey guys, I'm enjoying my second call here. In this community, thinking as we probably are a lot of things, one that kind of comes to mind is like, and I think about it a lot, is what are we doing? How is it that we're thinking that's not working yet? I mean, I think this group probably more than any other group that I'm in communication with would have I think really good answers to it. But the question is kind of like that bugs me is I've heard, I feel like over the past 20 years, I've been in conversations about connecting people with solutions so that they know who they might collaborate with and where the best practices are and stuff like that. I've heard that it feels like hundreds of times and that kind of pattern makes me go, wait, why does this keep emerging? What is it that we're not doing? I think we are basically kind of asking different dimensions of that question. In my life, what I've been up to, I'm kind of coming off of four years of a deep dive into the world of AR and VR for understanding its capabilities as a visual tool for better systems and network understanding. And I've since 2020 been the beginning of the year, been spinning up a consultancy in visual and systems thinking, organizational design, helping organizations with visual strategy, doing a lot of remote and visual facilitation on the tool, Miro. And I've been spinning up on top of the Miro. It's a collaboration whiteboard tool, online visual thinking tool and diagramming tool. And on top of that API, I've been building visual thinking groupware tools. So thinking tools, systems thinking, network thinking tools to help groups that plug into Miro and someday I'll show, I'll share a little demo of some of the stuff that that we've been building. We've gotten a lot of interest for third party like contracts, people with process, group process that involves kind of networked or relational thinking to kind of like want to kind of pay my company to help them build a tool, different collaborations with some really interesting organizations. There's a cooperative business school, business school that some people know in this group are putting together. I'm helping build some tools and some process for them. And then Miro, the company themselves are working on some second party development contracts to kind of like put these tools to help fund me to put these tools or move these tools along. So that's been exciting. One of the big things that one of the reasons that I've been doing it is that I've been in that world of the sticky note vomit kind of design think world where it just kind of turns into a mess. And it's sort of like the next thing in the group process to really understand where the collector like distill the collective intelligence is to do is really to need, we need to lean on kind of like algorithmic or like computational leverage at that moment. And Miro with its open API like offers that kind of opportunity to mix those two together that kind of collaborative participation. And then and then apply some of that algorithmic leverage. And I think that in combination of moving, moving in cycles in group thinking cycles with some assistance from from the computer, I think is one of the things that we haven't been doing well up to this point. And I'm excited for what it's going to do for a group process. One of the tools I'm working on is a participatory collective causal loop diagramming tool, not too dissimilar from Kumu, but actually more like workflow specific in that it's it's not a generalized tool per se. It's like a very specific processed contextualized tool. It's actually working with it's sort of based on there's a team called systematic innovation run by Daryl Mann out of the UK. And it's a it's a process that he put together called perception mapping. You guys, some of you may know it. Anyway, I think that's a really interesting application of some of the stuff I'm working on. But anyway, that's as much for you update. That's a bunch of good stuff. That's awesome. Thank you. And really super interesting. And the more modular of the proprietary tools that are out there that allow for the development of external plugins and other sorts of things are really cool. Like gene genes work with Kumu to get them to change the platform and add things and move things is really interesting. And as we as we talk about, you know, how to how to talk to companies that already have offers in the marketplace, I think that what you're doing is going to be really useful there. Yeah. And I really appreciated when we connected Jerry about I was like, Oh, good. Someone I'm sure a lot of people have this this feeling about connecting with you go, Oh, somebody can nerd out on this really in the weeds nerd topic and the nerd topic that we nerded out on was was like an open communication protocol and kind of data standard for network, you know, graph database, but on, you know, networked thought tools. And so that we could interoperate between the Kumus and the Miros and then Rome's and so on. And I'm really intrigued if anybody has any knowledge about the process of creating protocols or standards like, you know, what is that what is that convening look like? What is the, you know, Continental Congress, so to speak, of like putting those things together that lead to a standard? Maybe it's self evident, maybe it's obvious, but I haven't really studied enough to know kind of how big of a lift that is, I think it's a lot of consensus building, but a lot of technical consensus building. So, but it also means, you know, a lot of this marrying of paradigms, marrying of ontologies. So I, I'm intrigued by it. I'm also daunted by it. Subconversation to be had an OGM about that very topic. So we should go in discourse and just start a thread and figure out who shows up collectively through. You've done that. For example, Brian Bielendorf is one of the first people in the Apache Foundation. And Apache is one of those kind of standards efforts that happened over time that happened at the right time. I mean, timing is sort of really useful here. And then also intention is really useful here. Sometimes it's not about that you create the right technical framework, but were you doing this at the moment where everybody needed it? And Apache, I think had had a big piece of that, but we can reach out to people who've had a lot to do with standards. And then I don't know the difference between a standard of protocol and an API enough to explain it well to somebody, right? And, you know, I think there's sets and subsets and differences, but, but the differences are subtle and useful and interesting. So I think we can dive into that as well. But I think there's a whole piece of what we should turn the soil on and invite experts in for, which is, okay, if we're going to try to promote interoperability across these tools, for example, what does that mean in the sense of standards and specs and protocols? So thank you for being in that. Neil, go ahead. Just one one quick point. What you're talking about here at standards and protocols is one level of the bigger picture of whole system ethics. That doesn't matter how good your protocols are if they're not operating within a system which is supporting life. And so friend of mine, Richard Michelle has worked for 20 years pulling together groups looking at what are the meta constitutional procedures for the co-creation of the rules by which we agree to be co-governed. And so it's the rules for making the rules. And so in the case of standards, I would say, how do you bring these people together from across multiple platforms to say, what are the procedures that we could, sorry, what are the mechanisms we can use? And what are the principles that we're trying to honor so that we can show how to fit these bits together? So it's just showing that's that fractal level and at the highest level, if that's not integral of what life on earth needs, doesn't matter how good your standard is. Interesting. And I never met a meta I didn't like. So although at some level it's really easy to get tangled in sort of abstract and sexual stuff that isn't helpful. So I'd love to see explanations of that. Or if you have reached toward short explanation pieces about that, about the ethics of whole system design, I would love to see those. That'd be great. Let's go Lauren Bentley and then Robert. And you're unmuted now. No. Yeah. I want to slightly do all the conversation just for a little bit because I have a surprise for you. Okay. Could you, since you're the host, can you share your screen? I put a video in YouTube. A Hank is the host of this call. And do you want someone to play that video? Yeah. Alright. With sound, you have to click a little thing. Before I come on it, hold on. Awesome. Thank you. This is a Kiko lab production. Oh, yay. It's one of the things that we do. One of the great dreamers. Oh, here we go. Jerry McCowsky. One of the great dreamers. Jerry's brain, you know, is a map of the world that he's heard. It's both been very inspiring. And I mean, it's very much like a part of who he is. He constantly absorbing constantly challenging his own biases and assumptions. And it's a good role modeling for the community. He connects interesting people to each other as a gravitational point that you've never been able to actually meet or even consider existed before. He just sucks up all of the knowledge that's going around around him. That's going on around him when he creates these gatherings. And then that becomes his brain about that unformatted brain thing going on like Ted Nelson. And he has carved out a way to make it work for him, which I'm very impressed by. I've always been fascinated by collective intelligence and Jerry is a one man collective intelligence collective. Jerry has this magic where he brings the right people into the room and then he just gets out of the way. He would like keep a list of everyone who wanted to talk next and it kept things very civil and discursive and made sure everyone was heard in the room. He's introduced me to so many people or I've met people through Jerry in my life through his retreats and his ideas and all the things that he puts together that have had lasting impacts on me. So it's not just you know what Jerry is to me. It's like how it gives forward at the network effect you know people I've met who become really good friends. He will also just seed the conversation with some little genius nugget and then it's like off to the races. And I think one of the things that I really appreciate most about Jerry is his design from trust approach. And I have to say if I see someone on LinkedIn who is connected to Jerry, I automatically trust them. Anyone in Jerry's network if Jerry trusts them, I trust them. Jerry's retreats have warped the world fundamentally, socially, economically, collaboratively. There's been people that have come to the group that are really young or really old that are confused. And it's not necessarily Jerry that helps them directly. He knows that there's a value in the network helping each other. He's created this quiet behind the scenes thing that's linked together a lot of people and given the meaning and hope and ideas and connections. And for that I will always thank him. He made the conversation happen and then he's learning from it. So it's almost like he creates his own expert panels on really whatever topic he's interested in or wants to learn more about. And then he gets all these experts in the room and they all talk about it. And then he becomes like the world's greatest expert on X. This guy has got so many connections and not just connections into knowledge banks but into knowledgeable people. He was just amazed at his ability to sit there and interview people from all these different areas and then summarize in the last 30 seconds of the call basically everything that they talked about. He shows things in his brain without showing off which is what I really love. He's humble, you know. I mean a lot of people in his role would not be and remain humble. He's just one of the best people I've ever met and I'm really all my friends. I really appreciate that you are so emotionally intelligent. Well, being the true definition of a listener, you know, he really hears and listens and is able to like connect dots in ways that, you know, I've never seen anybody be able to do. I really feel like you listen to me and I feel like you value what I have to say. Superpowers are listening, are mapping, are taking a whole bunch of both technical and social political kind of ideas and trying to put a common frame around them and play that back to people. He knows so much about everything and things that you wouldn't even expect. There's really so much to Jerry. He's a polymath and he has the broadest knowledge I've ever experienced and he's always adding to it. He's a lighthearted heavy dude, fearless, sharp and nimble navigator of metadimensional terrains and spaces, stories and cultures, histories and mysteries. He made the conversation happen and then he's learning from it. So it's almost like he creates his own expert panels on really whatever topic he's interested in or wants to learn more about and then he gets all these experts in the room and they all talk about it and then he becomes like the world's greatest expert on X. This guy has got so many connections and not just connections into knowledge banks but into knowledgeable people. He was just amazed at his ability to sit there and interview people from all these different areas and then summarize in the last 30 seconds of the call basically everything that they talked about. He really hears and listens and is able to like connect dots in ways that you know I've never seen anybody be able to do. The way in which you look at the world which is 10 years out, 30 years out, sort of I mean beyond the bleeding edge and you're able to take these disparate ideas and put them together and kind of analyze what that world will look like and implications is so astounding to me. Open global mind, story weaving, map whispering, we just cannot keep the secret of Jerry Mikowski any longer. Out of the shadows, secret weapon no more. In the collective intelligence community there are quite a few guys who are really nice and there are quite a few guys who are quite brilliant but Jerry has something that's really unique. He has the vision of someone like Ted Nelson and he also has the trust, respect and admiration from the entire community. So if you want to know the cutting edge, the landscape of history, economics, technology, psychology, everything, he's your guy and he's I think every board of directors should have someone like Jerry steering them about what the landscape is there in. What Jerry has is a mandate to lead. Okay that was a really big surprise. Thanks to April. Wow. Holy crap. Thank you. You're welcome. That was amazing, completely amazing and I just had mentioned Balendorf like seconds earlier and then he shows up in the video like thank you everybody, all of you. I do this because y'all are so freaking cool. They didn't ask me what I thought though Jerry. They didn't ask me what I thought. Oh man. Maybe I'll just use this as an opportunity. Jerry when we first started talking about OGM and getting this thing up and running, all those traits that were represented in that video became clear to me and it's one of the reasons why I got so excited about pursuing this project and I think Nancy's question that she put in the chat is a real one which is what's the purpose of these calls and I know people in discourse are asking well how is this thing all going to come together and those are really difficult questions and I've been challenging you on our kind of our Tuesday check in saying Jerry we've got to push this and push this and we've been asking ourselves what does emergence look like and what do you need for emergence and so maybe just as an opportunity for this group to think about is it's important that we create spaces like this Thursday check-in to honor everybody and the opportunity to sort of share what you're working on and what you're thinking about and what you're passionate about and then I think it's what what we believe is it's everyone's then responsibility to self-organize little bodies of work of interest and and then to report back where you know what are those trajectories that you're on and then we need to start to link things together people together so that we build momentum and and you know the unfortunate reality is that takes time right it takes the investment of time for things to be self to emerge out of all this stuff and we'll slowly Hank build momentum right momentum is mass times velocity and our mass is each of us as sort of a unit you know and and velocity is when we start to align our direction you know our mass will get moving in that same direction and so maybe just to sort of put a bow on it my hope is that each of us start connecting with each other outside of this call on pieces of work that are important to the overall initiative and we do everything from the philosophical you know Neil the conversations you were having about the rules on the rules you know into the protocols max what you were talking about and we're all going to need to take you know different steps forward and so Jerry thanks for bringing us together and I hope that kind of gives some mental framework for how this thing is going forward and I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on that at some point so thank you thank you man thank you everybody anybody else with thoughts sort of where this puts us because I'm still a little blown away Lauren oh I just want to see um next Monday uh Charles and I we keep a lab are hosting a little educational summit which fits right into what we're talking about today trying to find out how we could just uh not like education is the issue the most important one it's just uh I think it's really low hanging fruit and a lot of us our parents or need to get our ducks in order and not quite sure what to do and it's just such a disaster we thought it would be a great in to kind of combine our efforts to see what tools we have on the table to solve these problems and I also thought it'd be a great opportunity to um get our five-minute university uh things done by having the people in this community teach to younger children and so we can kind of do a lot at once so yeah next uh Monday at nine in my uh zoom room Monday at nine which time zone uh CET 9 p.m CET okay good mc hi guys I'm back after a few weeks uh but it was really lovely to it's lovely to see everyone and hi from India I just wanted to say uh like for me one of the reasons to come here apart from the incredibly interesting people and conversations is to uh you know like look for tools and you know ways of thinking which uh I can engage into the stuff I'm interested in in my context right like uh so specifically why am I thought of uh I mean I thought of many of you because I'm just working on a proposal where the call was from you know one of these international agriculture research institutes and basically they were asking for uh proposals which would help them make sense of complex food systems um in very unusual contexts so I can see use cases emerging and uh you know even if it is a slow process to develop collective sense making into something which you know like a layperson can deploy easily I think there's tremendous value and understanding that you know uh starting to understand what we're trying to create and where it could get applied but I'm looking forward to more of this. Have you talked with Jean at all about food system mapping? Uh yeah I mean I did actually like when I first I came to this group in fact like after talking to Jean and he told me about his stories like how he you know built food uh I believe he also built some models for how the food system works and so on and so forth with with folks so that kind of stuff is incredibly interesting to me because it fits into this whole uh like participatory governance or participatory democracy kind of thing which is important to the NGO circles where I work and in fact you know like building systems models together with communities and sense making with communities uh you know like for example those who are impacted by climate change and their food security is affected so it's uh it's it's definitely something very important um thank you we also know a bunch of other people who are huge into food security food systems um in particular a guy named Banning Garrett and his colleague Fred Davis um and I can you know connect you up with them and I think I think food safety food system rethinking food ties directly back into regenerative agriculture directly back into regenerative everything which is a of the many frameworks that are trying to change how we see the world and how we treat the world is one of to me the highest functioning most interesting it's it's also really interesting that they use a lot of the systems language in their uh you know in their own thought process for example they're talking about resilience and they describe it as a complex uh sort of sort of thing which is not easy to get your grasp on so they're also trying to sense make of you know like fast adaptive responses which are enabled by sense making tools and so on and so forth uh some of the folks I'm talking to also are very much thinking in terms of like digital tools and so on and so forth so it really comes down to this kind of virtual image we have of the problems we're trying to solve right so and how can we use those to simulate the problem itself and collect data at the same time and ground truth and you know keep learning and doing learning and doing so I'd love to get connected to the folks you were talking about and I thank you for that yeah I look forward to it well thank you so much and I look forward to the day when we can have this conversation with more than like a chat that has links in it where we can share our brains with each other more we're simply and more transparently and where these ideas and you know Anthony would like us to bring back systems thinking and and apply it be like wouldn't it be cool if our tools allowed for that easily um while we're instead of just being sitting here in little rectangles next to each other so so thank you any other thoughts about where we are and I know we interrupted the the check-in round but the check-in round is partly meant it's partly who's in the room and what are we doing as I think Ken was saying in the chat earlier uh and how might we collaborate and it's partly also to to strike a spark and see what what little fires get started Scott and then class all right well I'll combine that with my check-in so I as you know I like to take notes or make notes so that I make this as efficient as possible so hopefully I can do this quickly I have four points um the first one is yes and so this environment to me there's a uh improv comedy idea where to do improv comedy the best thing you can do is simply say yes and if someone throws out a purple cat and you you don't say why is there a verbal cat you say yes and and you go with it and I get that feeling from this group every single time that it doesn't matter what you're saying everyone's saying interesting yeah and and and we're willing to to pull those threads even if it might not initially seem like there's anything there so it's very welcoming and it's just a great atmosphere there's another idea about do people have ideas or do ideas have people and that I think that in this case what we're what has been built here is that this is an idea and right now we have some people and there's probably other people out there and we want to figure out who else are the the people that have this idea or could be having this idea or I'm sorry the idea is having more people how about that um okay that's number one number two I heard this I think it's true I don't know if it's true but it sounds right to me in cities buildings change but streets don't now that's a generalization but mostly what it says is buildings get raised new tenants come in people you know companies buy different places but streets are really hard to change and so once you lay the streets down you have the map of the city and for the most part things things will stay about the same at least in the conduits but the but the buildings themselves will continually evolve and update and change and perhaps what we're making here is trying to lay down those streets so that people can find their way around the city and still allow each of those buildings to become what they are and and grow and maybe they expand and maybe they get raised and the new thing is put in place but the path to get to it is is the same um so I'll skip one of these and go to the fourth one so the last one is this idea of hot warm and cold documents so I read a book called the myth of the paperless office and that was one of the things they were looking at was computers were not new and paper was old they had different affordances there's different things that you could do and they found that paper was the most used for for actual active thinking and that you didn't really share paper because you know if I show you my paper this means something to me this is me anything to you because it's a work in progress and at some point the document or the area becomes gelled in a sense and now there's been now you can actually put this out to the world and the reason that I bring this up is that as we have these environments these little micro environments that we're trying to build there's probably a disadvantage to having too much openness and sharing at the initiation of it and it's it's almost like you you have a crazy group that produces a thing and then another crazy group produces a thing and then you can talk about those two things but if it gets too chaotic at the initial part it can be hard to decipher it can hard to make sense out of it and you might have thrown things out that you weren't really sure about you're just kind of pitching them and so one of the things I was thinking about in relation to your brain gerry is I maybe you can do this but are there thoughts or areas that haven't been touched in a long time and can you tell so for example what are my what are my dead areas and they could be dead for a couple of reasons one they're a blind spot you haven't looked at them in a long time and that's probably a bad thing or they're on the moon landing and it's like okay we're kind of done with that conversation we did it there it is and and that's kind of an idea that I had about how to structure some of these interactions and things is to have this these hot warm areas and then these cold things that are kind of okay we for the moment we've said we understand this well enough and set it aside so that's my contribution for the week that's awesome thank you are two really brief thoughts on what you just said one is I'm in Portland Oregon which has a really anomalous city design issue thing called short blocks the blocks here about 200 feet long most most blocked I think are like 300 plus feet long and that makes Portland a very walkable city makes it a high density walkable city and apparently this happened I think it was the wife of one of the two founder founders of Portland who suggested hey why don't we do shorter blocks and it really it pays off incredibly in terms of how the how the city feels and when you first said buildings can change a lot in streets don't I was like well sort of but then the initial plot of a city that really locks things in a lot and is you know unless somebody's going to come in unless the Huns or the or the Mongols come in and raise your city and then you have to build a new one on top you're kind of stuck with where those things landed so I like that and then the second thing was about a Japanese decision-making and I'm again I'm an amateur on this but my understanding is that consensus Japanese decision-making culture and corporations included the con that the proposal would be floated as a deck of paper and two things you could tell how long the proposal had been floating around the organization by how thumbed up it was it started to physically wear and then as people agreed to the proposal they would stamp it with their chop and the degree to which their chop diverged from the vertical was the degree to which they disagreed with the proposal but applying your stamp meant you were on board so that by the time the proposal had fully circulated and had ever had everybody stamped everybody knew what it was and was on board but their degree of disagreement was registered or was sort of incorporated into it and there's probably 50 more more interesting things about that process out there but but that's interesting and then Nora Bateson has a really interesting set of risks on what she calls warm data which is data with context and I think several of us in the group probably have some exposure to Nora's thinking and and and how that goes so thank you for putting so many stimulating things in the in the conversation um and Klaus you had asked to go next yeah talking about food systems so I've been since my retirement eight years ago I've been working on making sense out of where we're going with food and my epiphany came when I was taking a course at UC Illinois introduction to sustainability which I mean I'm trained thinking in metadata terms so my marketing and systems design background in food what was like you're kidding me right I mean this this these numbers are so so insane this can't this can't this can't work out so I've been trying to fix things so I started working as a consultant and I realized that even my company the Walt Disney company has absolutely no interest to to listen to to these issues or respond in any way to it and I've come so I then I started focusing on NGOs and over time I learned that don't offer solutions offer explanations and make the system transparent and simply by doing that you can bring people in because they start realizing the the the relationships between things and how how they impact each other so for example I represent team to create a campaign focused on ocean and seafood and it's still running and by explaining that the concept of carbon pollution carbon pollution is creating ocean acidification ocean warming and the chemical pollution from agricultural runoff so you bring this into a picture and then that picture allows you to talk to a fisherman into the seafood industry and say look guys this is what's happening to you so in when we worked on sheen's kumu project now too I mean we actually worked on this I don't know six months or so the complexity of the food system became overwhelming so when you look at the diagram that kumu model you can see that this is just overwhelmingly complex and it doesn't really tell you what you need to know to respond to anything so the challenge so I'm super encouraged this week because the Harvard School of Public Health is running the annual conference on menus of change totally focused on the link of our food system onto the health of the ecology health of nature and personal health the SDG security and sustainability forum they are now recognized that out of the top 20 points that they're making 10 of them are focused on food so the this whole issue of food security in my mind is of equal if not greater importance is that of the energy systems but when you think about you know the last 20 30 years we have been talking about energy in any form everybody knows you know turn down the thermostat put insulation in your walls make sure your windows are double sealed at least yeah so I mean thousand little data points that help us interact with energy we do not have these data points with food so my my proposal is and this is why I put on on into the chat here is helping the system see itself now the idea of mapping out a multitude of data points and then connect them in some form that allows us to explain to a layman in this field in simple terms here the interrelationships now that that creates the current condition so the role of the observer basically because once we establish relationships then we can then we can see trend lines right once we understand that ocean acidification is caused by leads to then we can say if this continues here the outcomes so so that is what is completely missing in the food world in the food systems world you know an understanding of the complexity so for example what I have been working on to to convey is that our personal menu choices you know our dietary decisions impact the farmer the farmer can't change into regenerative organic practices because he doesn't have a market to sell his products into so you need to have an engaged consumer collaborating with the farmer and in the middle pressure the supply chain to accommodate these things so that was my suggestion which is why I put just some random bullet points out to to see how can be mapped something like this so that it becomes visualized and and easy to communicate excuse me sorry um klaus thank you um two things on that one this would make a I think there's just like education there are a whole bunch of people in OGM who care a lot about food food system and know a lot about food system and are experimenting with it so creating a space in our discourse and in our activities where we can riff on this and I think that one approach might be how do we create a complete systems model another approach is how do we create a complete system model and this and this and this and how do we tell stories off this how do we propagate memes from it how do we like like let's try a whole series of things and let's compare notes and let's see how that influences anybody any place so I think there's a lot to do there I have a little bit of a cue here I've got Neil then Kevin then Matt go ahead Neil I'm fine Jerry no I'm out of it I think I was waving to say hello to class okay good thanks uh go ahead Kevin then Matt yeah I was just to guess that you know what's happened today is what open global mind needs to be sometimes it's about education and sometimes it's about food and and it's going down lots of rabbit holes and I think this is an emergent discovery space I think people who want it to be a coordination space or skipping over the level of cooperation is a one-off thing down that before you get to coordination and I think you know this wondering from here to there with some depth of rabbit hole is is really what this space should be and people who want it to become a problem solving space the next are going to be frustrated probably that's my take thank you I appreciate the observation um we pretty much agree Matt yeah I 100 percent I 100 percent agree with that sentiment and so just real quick making a connection uh Klaus uh collective next and our productions organization produces a show called talking machines talking machines is a nerd show about artificial intelligence and everybody who is working in the fundamental research of artificial intelligence like these really big thinkers with these labs listens to talking machines and it's a place for them to a hosted space for them to be sharing information and exploring the human side of artificial intelligence and when talking machine and we talking machines came into collective next when we hired the producer of that show to do podcasting as a as a capability for us and change but she was like can I keep the show and so we did and it it's continuously running and doing a really really interesting playing an interesting role in that environment I challenged her to say well what are the other areas that we would want to do a talking series around so talking energy is something that we were thinking about talking food is something we were thinking about talking you know our biology and so what I I guess my offer to all of you is if somebody wanted to host and help boot up one of these one of these spaces where it becomes um it just becomes a conversation with various people on these topics that's something that I would be happy to uh spin up the resources to help you guys you know do and so maybe just to connect to what Kevin was saying before is if we start to identify areas of thinking that need open minded thinking then um we should we we can rally around those rally around those areas and do open thinking about them and bring interesting people into it at the same time we can build we can be building systems like Jerry was saying well wouldn't it be cool if we could do this and this and this building new tools for us to communicate and then at the same time we need to build services on top of them that actually sell what we do you know into the existing world so we can generate more resources so us we can do more interesting projects and I think you know that's that's how we're going to get this get this thing up and running and some people are going to want to be doing the thinking and some people are going to want to be doing doing the building of the infrastructure or building the philosophy some people are going to want to be you know playing in the market and doing services so I think that's all the stuff we have to design and just start to catalyze so that's my offer and and a point of view and in the spirit of yes and um so I put the link to the talking machines podcast in the chat and it's a podcast and inside Jerry's brain is kind of a vlog where I was over sharing my brain during the calls I'm really interested in how to take the medium we're using to communicate down a couple up a couple levels and so what would talking machines look like if it was enhanced by any of us doing anything that would improve the conversation and then how do you deliver that I don't know I mean maybe it turns into a video blog with several screens maybe something else but I think riffing on that would be interesting because part of my notion with inside Jerry's brain was let's have conversations where the context is easily available and as you know as Harry would be talking I would then share my screen my brain on on screen which is a blunt instrument I say take over the screen while he's talking so that he's now a tiny thumbnail because zoom doesn't allow me any greater nuance than that right and I'm trying to figure out how to participate in conferences or now virtual conferences where I can be a second screen and where it works like hey here's the plenary and here's the panel discussion but by the way there's this weird dude who's who's like busy curating his brain on the side and you could put that somewhere on your screen as well and watch as somebody is doing that just the way a graphic facilitator might annotate a meeting or whatever else but how but but there's lots of us with different kinds of superpowers and skills and curiosities and Jean could be using Rome during the meeting and keeping notes and keeping track and then we could figure out how to bridge the tools and but but the end artifact doesn't need to be a sequence of recordings that are available as URLs online the end artifact can be a continuous growing improving memory as we go so I think there's a there's a lot there let's go to Judy then Scott oh can I jump in real quick so it's still on topic go ahead okay so very very quick story I used to mind map using a software on a screen during company meetings and no one knew what I was doing but to your point and this will be very short I didn't explain it I just said I'm going to do this let's have our meeting and by the end of the meeting which was an hour everyone had been talking to each other and then they started talking to the screen so I I think that absolutely that that's a great and you don't have to put a lot around it you just make it available and then suddenly you start talking and there's a really weird feature of whoever is the minute taker at a meeting they have a they have a strange kind of power and if they understand the kind of power they have that that has interesting effects on the meeting so by choosing the visualization by choosing some of the narrative to show it does have an influence on the meeting which is a topic we haven't begun to explore but is also interesting Judy go ahead and you are muted we are not hearing you yet sorry about that I think that if we can figure out an infrastructure that lets all of this happen outside of ogm in addition to in ogm and inside snarky anarchy and inside the different clusters I'm loving all the information but it's overwhelming when it doesn't come in an aggravated column relative to the topic of question and my inbox is just full of a bunch of stuff so I'm hoping discourses might help with that or some other model that you guys are more familiar with I'm really interested in the active part of taking that instantly into social experiments one-on-one with small groups of people because I think we can expand our reach a whole lot in terms of actually hoping for positive social change so those are areas I'm specifically interested in in addition to the educational dimension because we really want to have the world learn how to think constructively and what's the role each person plays in helping other people in the world think constructively about compassion social change etc I totally agree and I think a lot I think what's happening is this kind of conversation is where we figure out who's interesting what who has shared interest with us what are our superpowers what are we working on all of that then we can pair off triple off go off and do things and then just come back and feed the whole with what we learned and what we did and lather rinse repeat and use some of this energy to bridge the cultural divide there's a there's a guy back on patreon who's got a podcast called let's chat he goes and he sets up a table outside of church or outside of a mall in a very conservative part of town and he says hey I'm open to talk and he's got a couple video cameras and microphones set up on his little table very portable and then he sits down and he's a rhetorician and he starts asking people you know name something you believe in a hundred percent something that is a hundred percent true to you and he starts there that's usually his method and it's really really interesting because he's sort of unpacking things and there's that's just one of a million different ways to have interesting conversations and to to connect with people so so it's messy here right now because we don't have the structure in the organization and a lot of our conversations spilling over here and over there and I want to apologize again for not going into discourse and throwing my energy into it so that I can help kind of shape it in different ways but I think we're I think we're getting there and I just want to say thank you again for for the video the video earlier I'm totally still blown away Jean you have the floor to Scott's point about about mapping the meeting I I agree with him though I think it's beyond the capacity of a person to map a meeting like this there's just too much stuff going on you you just can't keep up and if you're if you're trying to to listen to something that that ken said and get it on the map you're missing the other three things that went by which is why I say that you need an environment that allows all of the participants to put stuff on the map and after you put something on the map then you explain to the rest of the group what you put on the map and why all right so that so that the group can collectively map the meeting and have it as an artifact after the meeting but the but I have seen what Scott talked about happened repeatedly in that people sort of gravitated to spending more time thinking about what to add to the map as opposed to the conversation they were having with each other all of which causes us to be less present for each other during the actual conversation so one way to maybe do this is to slow the whole process down which will be frustrating to some but to slow it down so that we can take some time for somatic presence that which which can can help us with and so that we can take some time to do double loop or triple loop learning on what we're doing and improve the process and so that we have a chance to annotate record and feedback we can also we can also talk about this conversation later like it's recorded I'm going to put this thing on YouTube and we have tools where we can map different little parts of the conversation feed that back into our broader conversation or into a into a specific thread on discourse so so we could actually riff on these conversations without having to do it in real time as well I'm interested in all these experiments and I don't know which is better and then also like if we were going to write on a shared map which map would we use is kind of an unfortunately an important question because I'm pretty good at using the brain I'm pretty crappy at using the other tools partly because I'm so good at using the brain and so I don't know that I can play nice in a different environment unless it's brain like which is kind of what OGM is trying to do so it's trying to design a place that I can migrate to where we can actually play together in that space go ahead Jean then Matt Kuma won't support that at the moment because it's not real-time multi-user Miro is but I don't I don't care for the interface project and I'm not that crazy about it and the Kuma people are coming out with a new product that looks a lot like Miro and I haven't had a chance to play with it yet though I question about whether or not it actually has the mapping ability that that we need so I'll keep you posted and the other thing is when we have the next meeting ask me to show you what happened when I pasted the chat into Rome oh okay because it parsed everything out nicely and more probably um so we will ask you um Matt go ahead and then we should start wrapping our call which is Ken noted it has sort of crept well beyond the hour I think the problem was that at the 60-minute market we were like on fire and and and heading into places so totally agree and and and thank you for that but go ahead Matt yeah just wondering if we should make these 90 minutes now Jerry but um and uh um one thing I just would say is you know another thing that we we have built into our capability set at collective next are the graphic are these graphic facilitators and we use them every time in our session because they're building they're building a certain type of memory in you know in the meeting I think Jerry and I have talked about it would be really amazing if we you know the next time I have a big meeting if we assemble a group of map makers and story threaders and those people beyond the graphic facilitators who are listening and creating in real time because I think you're um Jean I think you're absolutely right in saying that it's hard to both participate in the conversation and create the map and so I think as a guild we should think about developing story threaders map makers things like that and anybody who wants to practice those things I can get them on the field very quickly um and we can play around you know we can play around with those opportunities because we're facilitating all of these you know complicated sessions about you know various topics um it may not be as interesting as you know some of the topics that we've been talking about here with education and food food and you know those things but we could also have those map makers listen to you know these complex you know these podcasts these talking you know kind of talking things and and have them be producing artifacts in real time as well so I think this is an opportunity space that we should pursue and if people are interested in it just let me know and I can I can start getting people on the field um a tiny hack if anybody knows how to do this in zoom or if anybody knows how to influence zoom to do it but if I could replace my video of me with my brain screen shared in my window and that way we know how to do that we know how to act that okay I'd love to know how to do that because then anybody else can pin me um and and watch me do that and then let go let me go and go back to the meeting and they can just sort of go back and forth that's actually really interesting as a start given that we're sort of locked into zoomed them for a while all right jerry follow up with me and Hank and I'll get the instructions and then we'll distribute it to everybody I'd love to be able to do that that'd be awesome it's a separate app that you have to use on your it's like a another app that you have to have running in the background so we will figure out how to do it that sounds great thank you um anybody who didn't get a chance to check in would like to I think Bentley Doug Charles I don't think you had a chance to check in uh would you like to and Charles thank you it's it's primarily Lauren I just need to get for all the props and credit um is it my turn I wasn't sure is it yeah all right well um cool I just put uh I wasn't sure if we're going to drop off the um I guess in there's a call to action maybe for you and any anyone else here who wants to come energize the conversation um with and around Tom Atley's collective sense-making model and polis pol.is um it's sort of dwindling a bit and I can't don't want to do it alone um Rob Best and Kalia express some interest we made a very tiny program channel anyway just to mention um maybe maybe some of you want to to help um in that or not so that um I'm thinking a lot these days about wisdom flow and the kind of a ninja subset of people that so stay tuned for that and some of you are implicated you've been warned um uh let's see skipping around heading into kids holiday mode I've been at the lake with the big piles of post-its in different colors and shapes and sizes um Kiko Lab is rocking Lauren rocks um there's like the deep profiles for all yeah yeah come come get them um hash bins vibometer these are some of the things in the in the kitchen in the laboratory and activating and diversifying the community of the conscious internet alliance so we'll see how that goes and then we're all in on the the kids and the learning and the kool laboratory so thank you let's join you on next Monday for the Kiko Lab session that'd be that'd be really fantastic beautiful um and I'll note that Bentley has done what we were just talking about and he's picture in picture even so yeah and you're sharing your desktop which is awesome and I'm pretty sure that's the tool Matt was talking about so and your desktop is live uh yeah yeah yeah uh okay I want to I want what he's having um yeah exactly and that and that was Rob Reiner's mother by the way does everybody know that that's a cameo by Rob Reiner's Rob Reiner's the director of I've been here at your Sally in the restaurant scene uh the the lady who says I'll have what she's having is Rob Reiner's mom um Doug would you like to jump in yeah just one thing that's on my mind given the conversation and that's thinking about food we tend to be materialistic about food and think of it as an isolated system in fact food includes people so the idea that we would have habitat where we grow things so those two environments are mixed up seems to me like it would help solve a lot of problems about things like making the world interesting for children a place for parents and so on so I'm just calling that garden world and that's my focus I love that and also metaphorically ecosystems biological systems food systems human systems all just work together and they help us pay attention part of what I'm really interested in is when when we know that the system diagram is really really really complicated and in particular if you start getting down to the microbiology of what's happening and then you get into the energy transfer so what's happening it's insanely complicated right anybody who's looked at uh the the mechanisms of action of the covid virus and the human body and and if you start tracing the enzymes and what's going on as they're researching it it's nuts and way beyond my pay grade but what's cool about regenerative agriculture and other other forms of doing this is that a lot of this boils down to really really really simple ground rules really really simple ground rules like pay attention to soil fertility like you know keep the soil healthy and most everything else gets better and and that means a couple things and means measuring and it means uh amending and so forth but but then metaphorically that carries over as well so I think that that the food and human system are all like inter twingled and part of the magic that I'm looking for in our discussions and part of the reason for me to intentionally keep them kind of loose and chaotic is that if we over structure right now we're very likely to reinvent PowerPoint and if we let ourselves explore and experiment a little bit we might actually come up with the thing that does the multi-level mapping at at levels of sophistication and complexity and actual modeling with maybe what if scenario capacities that also somehow bubbles back to a really simple meme or a really simple principle that is a guiding principle for how to walk through our world and improve it so kind of on the quest for that that little thing the snark any concluding thoughts as we go out of our call someone asked I hear about gullibot but I want to take that would be another hour and a half so maybe we could uh if people want I could post about it in the discourse or just go to gullibot.com and give us the 30 seconds Bentley what's the 30 seconds uh it's a it's a it's a character that moderates mass agreement among the world that sounds awesome it uses math in the background to score things using my reason score tool so happy to talk about with anyone who wants to get me up about it maybe do a demo of that next thursday if we haven't had something around it sooner yeah uh yeah uh we'd do a demo of reason score gullibots just a personification so yeah I'd love that Neil did you want to add a word just just a quick one there's been several issues here about the high level ethics drilling down through ecology drilling down to physical representation in food systems and linked social ecological systems my friend Richard Mochelle is an architect who was working with architectures of intent which included one of the ethical underpinnings of how we ought to be co-governing that then led to carrying capacity style conversations multiple charrettes or working workshops with architecture students up to a hundred in workshops and he has developed up a concept of urban rural urban design where elegantly designed and eloquently and aesthetically pleasing environments with a density enough to have an urban population along the side of hills at a high enough elevation for the water and the energy to be used for irrigating food crops and things below each one is grown by cellular like the cell of a worm and as each one becomes sufficient you expand the model you don't just say here's a big city how do we feed it and of course it has 30 percent or 40 percent put in for ecological protection so just saying I can share that link probably in discourse in the big issues thing or big question thing that I've been talking about in the topics so thanks everybody for the wonderful conversation again today and broad ranging multiple levels multiple depths multiple disciplines all woven together and Jerry I loved your video and yep I agree with that and I said sorry I muted Kevin then Judy please just quickly I've reported a three or four weeks ago we'd been invited in by a black church to bring this a church-based credit union node and we're down to the level of the CFOs talking about plumbing and stuff and we're working with this great prophetic black preacher who didn't get a PPP loan even though he's got 1.2 million in revs and never missed a payment and he said you know what he's decided about all the black lives matter stuff is they'll let you march in the street and they'll even let you burn down something that has insurance they're going to get really pissed off when you take your deposits and so we think that's a great kind of a neatly revolutionary spinning thing that's we and we're talking to some big folks who want to do guarantees so they can do collateral so a single mom can get a ten thousand dollar car instead of a five thousand dollar car with five people putting up a thousand dollar guarantee or whatever so anyway it's down to the level of I announced that we're we're invited now we're down to the level of the CFOs talking plumbing and you know that kind of stuff I mentioned to Sal Jambonco last night over dinner that he should get in touch with you and talk about funding models etc etc because he's doing some interesting stuff I need to test that's great I need to test facial sound on this thank you right have a nice convo I think you don't really like it it looks like the software that we need to do what we want to do is OBS which I've heard of before and was a little bit daunting for me but if it'll solve this problem that sounds awesome Judy you have the floor I just wanted to kick back in on the dimension of trust because all change requires human engagement and so maybe we need to theme the dft stuff into specific initiatives so we can practice model experiments on making that work I love that thank you Bentley did you want to add anything goalie bot is I'm sorry OBS studio is very complex it's old score old school open source so maybe we could do some videos on setting it up and stuff sounds great thank you um I just put a link to the credit union blog so anyway and I wanted to take a set with a favorite poem of mine that seems topical for this moment I don't think I don't think I've read it in in ogm calls but it's titled home to roost by k ryan and I will just pop but a link to it in the chat but here it goes so home to roost by k ryan the chickens are circling and blotting out the day the sun is bright but the chickens are in the way yes the sky is dark with chickens dense with them they turn and then they turn again these are the chickens you let loose one at a time and small various breeds now they have come home to roost all the same kind at the same speed it seems like a poem for our times do you have one about lining up ducks I don't but we should look around yeah because we've got ducks are rampaging right now um everybody thank you enormously for this call Lauren and co-conspirators for the video oh my god my mind is completely blown I I just am in love so thank you um until soon and see you in the discourse I'm now I got to go into discourse and start paying attention thanks everybody so much bye