 Boom, what's up everyone? Welcome to Simulation. I'm your host, Alan Sokian. Very excited to be still at COFES, the Congress on the Future of Engineering Software, for our second annual partnership with them. We are now with John Lasovic. Hello. Oh, thank you for having me. Thanks for coming on to the show. Really appreciate it. Wonderful being here. Very excited to talk about you, talk about UpChain. John's background is crazy, 25 years of engineering data management. Two and a half years now as the CEO and founder of UpChain, which is doing cloud, PLM, product life cycle management, integrating product data up and down the value chain, driving collaboration, innovation and growth. So, now let's talk about your journey getting into engineering software. How did it even peak your interest and you get involved? Well, I graduated with a dual degree, one in mechanical engineering and one in computer science. My first jobs were doing engineering work at a couple of companies and through that and linking the computer science part of it, I ended up doing automation and helping the companies be more productive in their work. From that, I ended up running multinationals engineering data requirements and integrating them globally as they were scaling up and growing through acquisitions. That led to me being hired by Siemens and running their consulting services practice for North American Aerospace and got into the field that way. Not really a conscious decision, but it just, as typically things happen, I think in life, one small decision led to another and here I am. Yeah, so tell us about the initial times when you're seeing this globally become a big deal with data and manufacturing processes and design and engineering. How did you first see this evolving and you getting it more and more involved with making processes more effective? Well, it's really started with the capabilities on the engineering side and the abilities to do engineering on a global front to the necessity of it as the supply chain has proliferated around the world and opening up economies. So it first started with manufacturing and manufacturing being distributed around the world and the requirement for, if you're a manufacturer, you need the product details, what am I making? And that led into the next step where the supply chain became a lot more effective and started doing its capabilities grew. So now you have companies out there that, smaller companies, but they have some very good expertise in products that they bring to market that are absorbed by others and you've got this whole value network of companies that need to work together to bring a product to market, like a prime example is Apple. Where would Apple be without its supply chain? Not only in terms of manufacturing, which is a core key, but if you look at it, Apple does a lot of systems integrations. They find key new technologies and they absorb it into their product by collaborating and partnering with the people that actually invented the products. Yes, so a big part of the awakening to the importance of the engineering and design process was the globalized movement. Correct. So globalization and supply chain and engineers and developers and designers from around the world have to now collaborate in a very seamless product lifecycle management. And all that's been enabled not just because the products are getting more complicated, but there's a revolution going on in the world in terms of the complexity, the ability to manufacture the scale of things that are going on, right? So in certain regions you can't do something else and other regions are much better for it. Originally manufacturing in China, for instance, they could scale very quickly and bring people on board. All of this was enabled by technology, right? And the computer systems being able to manage that data and allow for data to be shared. Okay, then how did the idea of up chain come to be? Was it the you seeing all of what you're describing now and saying, I want to build the best solution to this? So the idea really is a slight twist to what's going on typically in terms of PLM software. So we're meant to be an agile PLM infrastructure for collaborating across the board in an agile fashion. So what I saw when I was out there, there's the democratization of the data and ability to work in it was being held back by the technology. The current PLM systems that are out there are very good and have been designed and used by large corporations who can go in there, implement very expensive software, customize the hell out of it to fit their business processes and then also go in there and homogenize the data. The supply chain downstream does not have those resources, number one. And number two, does not have the ability to standardize and direct what CAD systems they use, what metadata, what workflows. That's all being driven by their customers at the top. So they need to be able to manage data workflows, people in a very agile fashion through heterogeneous data. And so there isn't a solution out there that can handle heterogeneous data, multi-CAD, multi-workflows, be able to put a bill of material together with subsets being developed and manufactured by different companies that don't have the same standards. That niche on heterogeneous data, being able to manage it, agilely, collaborate in real time and be able to onboard and offboard people as you need it is what upchain is all about. So we do not go in and we do not sell, for instance, to the OEMs as their prime system of record for PLM data. We're complementary to it. So if you've got a General Motors and we've got customers like this that are down the supply chain, we are the link or the babble fish of engineering data to go up and down the supply chain. And when we go all the way up, they typically have a very ingrained PLM systems that we're complementary to and we integrate to them. Yet downstream, where they cannot afford those monolithic enterprise systems, that's our niche to be the system of record for them downstream. Upstream, the system of record are the big PLM systems. Okay, so the words I think that were really important here are on the agile and then you're also heterogeneous data, so to be able to communicate across all parts of the PLM across from the upstream to the downstream. And the upstream meaning the companies that actually sell to the customer side. And then the downstream meaning the designers and engineers. So upstream meaning the companies that actually take the product to market. Apple, for instance, is at the top of the food chain. At the bottom of the food chain are small companies that might be working on, I don't know, the keyboard, for instance. So that's a supply chain. That's a downstream. So Apple outsources the keyboard to be done by third party X. The keyboard company needs the little plastic springs and they found a company that's really good at, they outsource to somebody else and it's trickled down effect through that value network of the products involved in creating the commercial product, has a whole bunch of products and subsystems in it that need to be collaborated on and integrated to. Yes, and then the up chain would then enable the ones that are putting together the keyboard at the very lowest parts of the chain to have the data heterogeneously be able to flow where everyone kind of understands it all the way up to selling it to the customer. Correct. Okay. Now what is the heterogeneity of the data? How do you do that process? So we've built an application with some technologies in it that allows you to easily translate data and flip over the matrix of what the data looks like and present it in the format and use your interface that the consumer is comfortable with and that's what they work in. For instance, we have integrations. Somebody might, the bill of material, for instance, for one organization is different than another one, right? We have a deep integration, for instance, to Excel so we can expose our bill of material on the database through an interface or through the CAD integrations directly to Excel and allow people to work in Excel like they're used to, yet it's fully integrated through the whole design process. On the other end, we've got deep integrations to CAD that the bill of material is built through the CAD integrations and all the way up and down that and being able to allow the system to be used in an agile fashion, non-disruptive allows us to be able to integrate all these different players very rapidly and onboard them. So part of the problem here is that there's not enough engineering resources in the world, right? So people are trying to find resources and technologies and be able to integrate that to help them get the product to market. And in doing that, they're looking around and finding resources but the problem is how quickly can you onboard them and have them be productive in helping you create your product. And that's our vision, that it's streamlined way of doing that and being able to integrate this network of people, resources, manufacturing, service down the supply chain as quickly as possible. And the only way to do that is to be non-disruptive and to be agile. And then the examples of the application of UpChain's Cloud PLM is a company like Apple is an example. There are other industry examples that you can share with us that can illustrate out the lowest parts of the... What was it called, the high and the low, the end of the start? The start of the end, the OEM, the original equipment manufacturers down to the base single component companies. That's how it goes. The OEM from the finals and then the bases to the ones that are doing the components. Interesting. So then give us more of these industry examples of UpChain in different industry. So we've got the Apple, for instance, electronic side. We've got the automotive side as well where you've got a very mature supply chain. However, the engineering aspects that we're getting more and more pushed down. So you've got companies that are going in there or we've got companies like Magna, for instance, that do a whole subset of systems. They actually do even the manufacturing is outsourced by the OEMs to them. So they integrate very heavily. They've got a very deep supply chain that's providing them value in products and engineering resources and manufacturing resources. We've got companies in the food industry, for instance, which you might not think is really PLM related. But we've got companies in there that want to understand the bill of material. For them, a bill of material is a recipe. The recipe is different for different regions. In Canada, for instance, there are certain rules and laws about salt content. There's also all sorts of different aspects of peanut and nuts that you have to manage. And so you have to be able to understand that whole supply chain and they're providing bits that could be as simple as salt. And you've got issues with salt. We resolved a problem with one of our customers, but being able to manage that supply chain in developing the product, but also there's certain regional aspects of doing products. We've got one company in Canada that's using our product right now and it's all about packaging. And the less cardboard and plastic they use in their packaging, they actually get incentives back from the government. And that being how do you track that? You track that through PLM. So it's very broad in what's going on in the world and integrating all this. And moving forward, we've got customers right now that are trying to integrate and we're working with, they've got traditionally, it's been very separate, very different disciplines that have been pretty well segregated and they don't work very well together. You've got mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, a lot of discussion at COFIS here on analysis CAE and how that works and being able to integrate it. You've got software that needs to be integrated now. So bring a product to market right now and it's really key to have all these different disciplines working together on the engineering front but also manufacturing, service, financials, bring them all together is a key. We are having projects right now, we're integrating and didn't think of this ever historically in all my 25 years in the industry but linking mechanical, electrical, software and architecture together. You've got different companies that are building, not to get into details which I can't get into, building buildings or architectural things that have mechanical things that go inside and the mechanical bit has changed and it's impacted the building, that the building main structure has to be moved and the port footings are ready and they don't know what to do now and the cost of that and delays of that in the project but if they were integrated they could actually understand the links between all these different disciplines in real time and it'll manage that how much of a difference would it make. There's numbers out there that 80% of engineering projects are over budget and they're late. So all this is getting worse as we go. The product recalls on products are accelerating. All this is because of the complexity of what's going on and the more complex it is the more you need to be able to collaborate in real time throughout that whole value chain. The numbers of engineering projects that are now happening around the world from everything from just software to buildings and architecture and manufacturing and everything in between is just crazy the amount that is happening so like you said to be able to cut down on some of the resources that we are that we're having these oops moments that are costing lots of money and so to be able to cut down on that and to become more effective at what we're building is very important. Where is future PLM going? We're talking about being agile, heterogeneity of data, being able to very easily see up and down from the very customer side all the way down to the component side being able to really communicate. The trend that I'm seeing that's going on is you can see it today. You've got companies that have grown very large very quickly with very few resources. You look at companies like Fitbit for instance. When they went to market with Fitbit watches I think they had 40 people on it. You think about the complexity of what they've come to market with and that's because the ability to be able to integrate all these disparate companies and build a network very rapidly to build a product to market. I believe that that is accelerating. We've got the 3D printing. I think what's going to happen is that people like us working at home will eventually be able to think of a product, design it through all the systems that you're seeing here in CoFest, companies that are doing fabulous things like Onshape, online you don't need to be an expert anymore to design a product and then be able to outsource it and get the resources you need as a single person not even just a small company and get your idea maybe not to market but get an idea out there. I really think that even get it to market is you're seeing that very complicated products are being able to brought to market with fewer and fewer people. If you think about it before getting a Fitbit watch 20 years ago what kind of organization will be required to do that and what was required right now? Similar to this program that used to be a multi-million dollar television network. Correct, exactly. So the democratization and the ability to scale are very complicated things and people are able to do it in teams right now, we're before as whole companies now you can do it in a small team eventually you'll be able to do it as an individual and that day is coming very quickly. So just think about the impact of that and all the ideas that people have and the ability for them now to be able to actually see their ideas come to fruition and the key for that is PLM. Yeah, interesting. So when someone gets these creative ideas that they can very quickly, rapidly prototype and make sure that the idea that they don't have to do maybe some of the repetitive math and physics. And they might engage someone that knows the physics right for a short period. Tell them about their project, engage with them very rapidly so it becomes a nucleus of all this. It's the center point for all this and engage with some, find someone, engage with them, add them to the project, have them add their expertise to it and build the product and go to market. This is so interesting, John. We're really excited to see what happens with up chain down the line and with the future of PLM and everyone, thank you very much for coming on to the show. Thanks for having me, a great chat. Love you. Love what you're doing. It's fabulous. Thank you. We're greatly appreciative of that. And the more that we can get, like you were explaining these types of conversations out there, that we can get more of the young people figuring out how to get their ideas out into the world, leveraging software technologies. Yeah, and that's my vision. That's what will enable our, you know, we spoke about this a little bit last night at dinner, right, the advancement of who we are and what we're doing in the world and potentially meet all the vast challenges that we have on this planet. Yes, yes, that's right. That's right. Unlock that creative potential. I love it. Thank you, everyone, for tuning in. We really appreciate it. We'd love to hear your thoughts in the comments below. Also, go and check out up chain and John's links. They're all below as well. Check out Kofes' links. Support the artists and entrepreneurs that you believe in. Our links are below as well. And go and build the future. Manifest your dreams into the world. Thanks for tuning in and we will see you soon, everyone. Bye. Thank you. Thank you.